Free-Play with Federschwerter

[MoonfaceMartin88]

Okay, these guys are good. Shure, they are tiring out quite fast, but at that pace... One of the few free plays I have seen, where you could actually see, that good-looking guard positions make sense in terms of winning as well...

[AFTrash]

These ARMA boys don't mess around...

[temp54]

So what kind of swords would you recommend (I'm assuming non-metal ones) for those of us who don't have that much experience, but wish to still spar with the minimal amount of protection needed (aka, we don't want to get hurt, and want the freedom of movement)?

[gurkfisk89]

@temp54

If you don't want to get hurt, then spar with foam swords. But that take away much of the swordfighting I think. So if you are ready to get hurt but not injured I would recomend nylon swords. But then you would need some protection, a fencing mask and a pair of good gloves would do fine. Throw in throat protection, a cup and elbow/knee protection and you can do some more serious sparring.

[xtcarnage15586]

I ADMIT THIS IS COOL AND ALL, BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THIS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE MARTIAL ARTS OF EAST ASIA

[Neptune0100]

@xtcarnage15586 same.

[xtcarnage15586]

@Neptune0100 I was actually kidding

[effigytormented]

@xtcarnage15586 caps lock is cruise control for cool . . . . but even with cruise control you still need to steer. A fine troll btw.

[xtcarnage15586]

@effigytormented I was kidding not trollint\g!

[effigytormented]

@xtcarnage15586 gehehe, ah but was it you or I who was tru- . . ok it was me.

[effigytormented]

@xtcarnage15586 Oh, my apologies then, it's hard to tell context and tone without a face or a voice, aye?

[xtcarnage15586]

@effigytormented no it's totally cool. Just messin around

[dare751]

damn it shut up and just watch assholes-.-

[OmteZero]

As Arma does not believe in a point keeping system like in Kendo, who is the better fighter here? Ego tends to lead most people to deny many fair strikes made against them.

[mrbeast85]

Actually setting up artificial constraints such as points systems can often turn free sparring into a game, with people playing the game rather than practicing authentic technique.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Who's the better fighter doesn't matter in this instance. They're doing it to improve themselves as fencers. Besides, these are/were some of ARMA's top guys... at that level, it doesn't matter since they both have confidence in their abilities, and both know that the other guy is not to be taken lightly.

[BlackTalon53]

Those two guys don´t dick around, if one of those strokes goes wrong they cold lose a finger or an eye, even without a proper edge...o_O

[twobitmage]

Interesting.

Are there any tournaments or competitions? Are there different styles based on the region or country? Have any of you practiced with kenjutsuka? Do you practice any techniques with the spear or halberd?

I'm a kendo practitioner myself, and I'm very interested in learning more about this sort of thing. I have no illusions about the practicality of what I do (a sport) so I have no real way of processing everything that goes on in this video.

Where can I go to read up and learn?

[SwordAndBuckler]

These guys are members of the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts so "theARMA(dot)org" would be the place to look if you'd like to learn more.

ARMA doesn't do tournaments since it tends to encourage sportification and dishonesty in participants.

There are regional styles. German and Italian for example, however generally the differences are more about the preferences of the master than the country since most masters traveled and learned from other teachers in other countries.

[SwordAndBuckler]

There have been a few times where a Kenjustu practitioner has agreed to spar, however this is very rare. Most requests simply go unanswered. Recently a third party tried to set up an armoured sparring match between a Kenjutsu practitioner and a Harnischfechten (full harness fighting) practitioner. An ARMA member was chosen for the European side but no (legitimate) Kenjutsu practitioner agreed to spar. This was pretty frustrating since many were greatly interested in seeing this match.

[Giagantus]

@SwordAndBuckler Isnt that unfair. One guy being armoured but not the other ?

[tiamat9989]

There are many ARMA members that have prior experience in kenjutsuka, fencing, and other martial arts. This prior experience often shows in the control, intent, energy, and especially footwork in a lot of the ARMA videos.

This prior experience that many of the members have is one of the main reasons I believe the ARMA approach the most martially valid of all I've seen.

While not as much as sword, they definitely do practice with spear/halberd. Look up Stewart Feil's prize playing video.

[twobitmage]

Hey there.

I was curious if you had any full contact sparring videos using wooden swords? This is interesting but I get the feeling that because of the risk of injury that they're holding back.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Wooden swords tend to break at full-contact. I barely even use them anymore. Too many zornhau binds sending pieces of hardwood across the training hall. Good technique generates great force without much effort.

[dalaeck]

This is insanity. You need to add a comment not to try this at home - many idiots are going to try something similar with improper equipment and improper training and get seriously injured and/or die. I don't know about the legal implications in the states but ARMA doesn't need bad press.

I understand the desire for realism but because of the extreme danger this type of sparring teaches to go for the blade first, when the body should be the primary target.

[AgnotTheOdd]

Arms should be the primary target, not the body.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Usually the primary target with the longsword is the head or neck, or sometimes chest. Only the krumphau is used to target the hands as a matter of course. Three of the five master strikes target the head. Of the remaining two, the krump targets the hands OR blade, and the Schielhau either sets up a thrust, and can target the head, neck, and SOMETIMES hands. It's hard to snipe the hands when the opponent gets into Krieg and winds his point in your face.

[dalaeck]

When I said "body" I mean the whole body, including arms.

If by "arms" you mean "weapons" you're woefully mistaken.

Lichtenaur 23R: "Do not strike at the sword, but always to the openings, to the head, to the body if you wish to remain unharmed".

This is common to any proper sword art, only hollywood has popularised irrelevant sword-on-sword play fighting.

[AgnotTheOdd]

By arms I meant the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments which pop out of the shoulder. I am not an idiot.

PS i hate hollywood

[KalaiDragon]

Hey you guys are totally right..in a real combat is the man not the weapon the target...but you're getting kind of creepy talking about tendons, ligaments, muscles, bones and vital organs....

[fenrirsget]

who produced the swords being used here?

[Kunstdesfechtens]

More Albions. :)

[WongKonPow]

ok, around 3 minutes of sparring and they were breathing pretty hard. That's also without having a suit of metal weighing them down. Imagine how massive and muscular actual knights must have been, using almost all of their time to train to be ready for hours of fighting. Freaking crazy.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Not necessarily muscular, but agile and strong... think Bruce Lee. Weapons training tends to make quick, rope-like muscles. Medieval armour weighs less than a fully kitted modern infantryman. You can do cartwheels in the stuff.

[GambleD13]

Keep in mind that we don't know for sure they were only sparring for 3 mins. The vi starts mid action, for all we know they could have been sparring on and off for hours before the vid was shot.

But I agree that actual Knights must have been extremly strong, fit, and agile, fighting for hours in full maile would be unbelievably taxing.

[YumeWire]

I like the speed, but you can read their movements easily by looking at their lock arms and intensity.

[Malachayas]

Yeah, but only because they do not want to hurt each other. If they wanted to kill each other they would probably be faster and more unpredictable.

[gregvs3]

So those aren't real swords are they? What would happen if hit each other full force?

[Sexsofil]

They are not so sharp and this boys are pro with it

[redpro01]

yes they are "real" swords.. they are just blunt so that they dont hurt each other (at least mortally)... A blunt sword can still cause some serious damage; but speed and force can be controlled by simply training alot!!

[Malachayas]

This is a vid you should show all sickly fanatic "Asian people are the only which can handle the sword"-dudes. These guys can compete with a Samurai/Ninja/Shaolin whatsoever from Asia.

[2771]

Oh I hate that old dumbass arguement that european Knights were just two brutes bashing eachother with sharpened crowbars. they had as good if not better training then asian warriors and better armour and swords.

[vagetankz]

@2771 dude you wish Asians have hundreds of years of experience over Europeans .

[2771]

@vagetankz Not really, the armor of the Knight was far better then anything from Asia, and European metallurgy was far more advanced. The methods of metal working that were used in making Japanese and Chinese swords were abandoned in Europe by the end of the Viking Era. The folding and laminating of sword steel that is at the heart of katana construction were well known in Europe in the Dark Ages, and were obsolete by the 11century in Europe.

[2771]

@2771 If anything it took Asians hundreds of years to catch up, and when they finally did Europeans had advanced beyond swords and armor. Remember, it was American guns that finally ended the Samurai., when a fleet of U.S navy ships demanded trading rights in 1867.

[Isseinoyuu]

@2771 the sad thing is its the europeans themselves that began that stereotype, during the 18th and 19th centuries

[johntheactor]

@Malachayas Agreed, even though I like hearing about how Asia is good (because I am one), I can't stand it when people think that the Europeans weren't as advanced in fighting arts.

[2771]

@johntheactor I have nothing against Asians or their weapons, I even count the katana and the jian as two of my favorite swords. However, I don't believe any one weapon is the end all be all of it's class, I believe in the warrior not the weapon.

[johntheactor]

@2771 I believe you may have misunderstood my comment. I was not saying any sword system or blade shape was superior. I was merely stating that I am proud that Eastern styles are getting a lot of attention, whilst still believing that European styles are underrated by the vast majority of society. I may not agree with your other comments (though I admittedly do not know much about metals), but I very strongly agree with the no-such-thing-as-an-end-all-we­apon philosophy.

[crigby46]

@Malachayas Not just that, but these blades have something the asian (particularly the fawned over katanas) did not: a crosspiece. Doesn't sound like much, but it makes one hell of a difference

[Malachayas]

@crigby46 Yap, especially as defensive device.

[crigby46]

@Malachayas Agreed, and it works surprisingly well a punch weapon for close-in work, so long as the crosspiece is fine enough

[SailorBarsoom]

Again, this is much faster and more exciting that the slow, boring "clang, clang, clang" that Hollywood has lead us to believe that fighting with large swords must have been.

Usually, movieland sacrifices accuracy for excitement; rarely they sacrifice excitement for accuracy; with this they seem to sacrifice both accuracy and excitement for...

Good vid, guys. Wouldn't want either of you mad at me.

[Echtellion]

Sweet jesus! Such speed, it's incredible. Does this kind of beating leave any marks on the blades though?

[redpro01]

no becasuse they are blocking on the FLAT of the blade and not the edge.

this was the historic way of parry/block/deflection of anothers blade. Those who block witht the edge have no idea of what is in any historic fighting manual..

Yes nicks and marks do happen, but highley rare with any true scholar of the sword.

ARMA are masters at NOT messing up the blade

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Absolutely. Even when using the edge to block, you are intercepting the opponent's flat, or most of it, say when using a Krump or binding an incoming Zwerch. The closest thing to an edge on edge is when you have two zornhauen to the head opposed to each other, but you sort of cut OVER your opponent's flat because if striking second, so even that's not edge to edge.

[tiamat9989]

well said. If people still don't believe the edge-bashing problem they should just look at ARMA's basement experiments video.

"Adventures in Edge-Bashing"...Edge-edge strikes leave literally chunks of steel missing from the blades. After that all doubts of mine ended and I became another advocate for blocks on the flats =P

[sabishiisamurai]

Maybe, but I don't think you'd care about that when fighting for your life.

Great fight though!

[sabishiisamurai]

I'm talking about one of the edge-to-edge contact comments.

[tiamat9989]

The bottom line is to make sure you survive; that's absolutely true.

However, making sure your weapon stays in one piece is pretty important when fighting for your life. Parrying on flat is not just to prevent nicks, but also to take advantage of the flex in the blade which helps absorb a large amount of impact.

Besides, the very nature of the primary longsword guards results in flat blocks; using the edge results in unnecessary movement.

[wongy2006]

the flat blocks weren't just for that though, when you block on a flat it makes a counterstroke easier. In fact most parries were strikes, and the counterstroke was in the same movement as the parry

[tiamat9989]

Quite so.

I just posted the video on edge-bashing tests from the free arma webpage, to add to the debate.

[insertoriginaluser]

Or more accurately, you strike your opponent's flat with your edge.

Parrying an edge with your flat just doesn't work so well if your opponent is bigger and stronger. I speak from experience. Did that with a guy twice my size and he could power through it. But when I parried with my edge on his flat, he couldn't.

[jstntlvr]

I think you would care a great deal about that when fighting for your life especially if your sword had to last hours of combat but proper training would mean you don't haft to think about it you just do it

[insertoriginaluser]

Yes. I got a friend who parried with the edge so much that his sword was nicked everywhere. One fine day, he was sparring with another guy, and he happened to parry with the edge on the exact spot where there was a bad nick, and part of the sword literally snapped and flew across the room! That's close to a thousand dollars down the drain.

[tiamat9989]

Yikes. A great story to illustrate the point.

A question--was that sword a sharp or a blunt? Because if even a BLUNT can nick and snap like that...

[loginloginlog]

Sie Jungs sind Tiere auf dem langen Schwert!!!

[lilosumo]

casper is ben

[Cacus10]

Hmm ... my comments were supposed to be responses to joseolid and lilosumo. Not sure why that didn't work.

[Shellar25]

Very nice!

[Hiddenronin]

I think they are using feather swords, which exsplains how they can spar at that speed. Excellent display of swordsmanship.

[ranpleasant]

The swords are Albion, either The Meyer or The Liechtenauer. These are without doubt the best blunts on the market, both weight about 3.5+- lbs.

[Hiddenronin]

THanks for the info. How exspensive are they?

[Kunstdesfechtens]

I think the list price is $444.

[theomorph]

@Hiddenronin

translate.google.com/#de|en|fe­derschwert

i agree. excellent swordsmanship.

[lilosumo]

LOL thats cool ben by the way everyone thats ben with the real light fair skin tone he's from farnington ut..

[Cacus10]

In case you didn't see in the vid description... this is Aaron Pynenberg and Casper Bradak...

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Excellent.  I aspire to this level of performance and control. Thanks for posting this, Ran.

[Drzacksmith]

How you guys have not injured each other is beyond me. Brilliant sparring Guys just excellent.

[tiamat9989]

Those swords are the Albion Liechtenauer series, aren't they?

I'd totally get myself a few of those if I had the cash...

[Leondrian]

I think it's amazing how you dare sparring in that speed. Cool to see some none armor sparring.

[joseolid]

He visto pocos golpes que realmente fueran dirigidos hacia partes del cuerpo.

[Cacus10]

Yo estaba presente cuando fue grabado este video y te garantizo que cada golpe habria alcanzado al cuerpo del adversario si no hubiera sido defendido.

Una combinacion de control y destreza permite que estos caballeros puedan practicar asi.

(disculpa, por favor, errores con el idioma. no soy hispanoparlante nativo)

[SwordAndBuckler]

One day I will visit that studio. I'll just have to wait until I've saved up enough to make the trip. ;-)

sweet video by the way. 5/5

[marozzo]

thanks for putting it up here ranpleasant,there is some real value in sparring without any protection at all, even if you have to limit the target area (head, hands?). Perhaps it is what everyone should aim for! Cheers.