The Hell You Say

[vessmore]

According to the bible God warned Adam that he should die, not that he should be tortured in all

eternity. If hell really exist I think God would have told people in the old Testament...

[TheIllegit]

The enormity of God's hypothetical work is not really a good argument against the possibility. Since, if God exists, he would exist in some state of either infinite time, or no time, making doing all the things you deem 'too large' moot. If he's not bound by the constraints of time it would hardly be difficult to do all the things you say 'all at once'.

[optician01]

as for science.. again the scientists are human just like you and me and therefor cannot undestand god in his ways, in other words.. our brains only go so far... as even god said our thoughts are not his thoughts, we are not in a supernatural state as of yet but we will be when we leave our mortal brains behind. {die}

i do enjoy our debate.... peace

[optician01]

when we dont understand his ways, we must exersize faith, but this is where some people dont want to participate, dont want to put any effort into it.

[optician01]

breaker breaker you tube how 'bout that one rottenrobbie7? ya got your p.c. on there good buddy? come on back to ol' optician01 there 10-4? ha! robbie must work on sundays.....

[rottenrobbie7]

Science and faith not mutually exclusive. Science can't prove or disprove god. I dont choose to shove him into the gaps of my understanding, I let evidence speak. If god made the cosmos then science will show his handiwork and point conclusively/observably to him. If not , findings won't support. So far a lack of evidence; god is not ruled out. Maybe well find something some day, I withhold faith until that time and leave the conjuring to more fertile imaginationsThx for the exchange, peace.

[livetv777]

you suck!

[optician01]

substance 0

[optician01]

showing proof can be a bitch

[rottenrobbie7]

The burden of proof lies with those who make claims of sky castles and cannot produce them. Since the evidence doesn't as yet support a god I have no reason to conject that there is one. That's an intellectual integrity that is missing from the faith/claims you are trying to sell. I'll take honesty any day. Talk in cirlces much?

[rottenrobbie7]

If you want to understand those who emrace what science is teaching instead of faith you need to read more than just you bible and half baked apologetics. I once thought much the same as you. Based on what I knew then my take seemed rational. Truth was I hadn't read anything by scientists like Hawking, Sagan, Shubin, Einstein and Collins(Christian and lead scientist for the human genome project), wasn't interested. I've read the bible more times than I care to recall...

[rottenrobbie7]

If the flu I see a doctor. Blood test, microscope, the flu virus- proof. You r confusing feelings cognitive/emotional with feelings physical, one subjective, the other verifiable. Point was my faith was earnest and sincere; if I'm pissed it's over another lame assed gloss over as to how non-believers don't "get it". Slight of hand won't hold water here. Hot air and rationalizing, your hands remain empty.

Baseless conjecture: much

Substance: 0

Burden of proof is a bitch, but indispensible.

[optician01]

if your point is that your faith was earnest and sincere, how can you show proof of that fact?  hmmm....carefull now.........

[rottenrobbie7]

I've answered that already.

[optician01]

thats a great answer... to bad its not what i asked.. focus like a laser beem this time... you say your faith was sincere, how do you know?? if you say faith is full of holes?... hmmm.

[optician01]

you are very passionate abouit your sincere relationship with god in your past , could it be you left god because your simple mortal mind couldnt comprehend the awe and wonder of him, and could it be that god makes us all the same way because we are not ready to understand his perfect ways? because our souls are still here in the bodies he has placed us in, so that we may go through our lives free to chose, as you are even now?

[optician01]

are you saying that my feelings cognitive/emotional of my faith in god is not real but your faith was earnest and sincere due to cognitive /emotional was real?..... hmmm

[rottenrobbie7]

No. Valid to us both in their season and impotent in it's inability to prove the existence of a supernatural anything.

[optician01]

wow i dont spell well first thing in the morning but you get the idea, if you say you cant trust your feelings as proof, what do you do when you feal sick when you have the flu? do you say thats just what youve been taught and its bullshit?

[optician01]

athiest seem to want proof of god without any personal applications, like someone who is bitching about being without a job who will not get off the couch. you want answers to things but dont want to apply any personal experience, much less the existsance of your own soul, or of any thing supernatural. or maybe its because its much more cool to be against the idea of any GOD?

[rottenrobbie7]

I was an earnest Christian for 20+ years omnicient one (You claim to know the MO of a being and realm for which you can produce not an atom of proof), nice try...and fail, been there done that with over 2 decades of "application". I'm not an atheist either. I, however differ from you in that I'm honest about my knowledge and ignorance and don't pretend to have a grandiose understanding of things and places without substance. If a warm, fuzzy faith blanket helps you, great, I prefer reality.

[rottenrobbie7]

How bout' it Op? This the point where you add to the mountain of mental reservations and rationalizations meant to shore up a baseless faith by telling me I wasn't really a Christian? My faith wasn't real, wasn't really committed, set aside for destruction, the seed that fell among the rocks or was choked out by an imaginary devil? C'mon, open up the box of old chestnuts you use to sheild yourself from painful job of thinking. Faith is so full of holes the winds of reason blow thorugh it freely.

[optician01]

and yes you had to be there meaning any experience you have is a personal one so yes to experience gods love you have to be there.

[jamespro95]

How do you account for what's outside your window? For some, the sky or tree is nicely accounted for by a scientific understanding - the awe and wonder of it all is still there.

For others, they see the houses and streets and think of purpose or a creator. Purpose does not exist outside the mind of humans (& some animals).

Ultimate Purpose or God is invoked to explain nature or the universe and that there is something more than what is seen outside that window.

[marmin42]

Hey leaf,

This is M - JP & S's longtime friend. You and I met at a couple gatherings circa 2000, shortly after you had taken a course with A.

Anyhow, JP put me onto your videos earlier this week. Highly entertaining! And having spent 2007 reading Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Dennett and others, I have little to disagree with. Great fun, take care - M.

[LeafInTheStream]

"JP"? "S"? "A"? Ah, yes, "M" - the rooster crows at midnight, no?

I must get around to reading Dennett - so far I've just seen some of his lectures and debates here on YouTube.

Anyhow, glad you enjoyed the vids. I'll try to be more controversial in the future. Take care.

[optician01]

correction: I LIKE THEM ALOT I SAW SNAKES AND ARROWS TWICE!!

[optician01]

i wasnt even looking for anything to do with god when i found this! sometimes ill look up a funny phrase just to see what comes up on you tube, we were laughing about someone at work when"the hell you say" came up. and i did like your personality and sence of humor and decided to comment. i am not a fanatic christian, i am not perfect just forgiven, are you in canada now leaf? do you like the group RUSH? ive seen them about 4 or 5 times! i like them a little. im in florida

[LeafInTheStream]

Rush was extremely popular, at least among the guys, when I was in high school, and yes, I like them well enough. But I'm really more of a Beatles and Stones man, I must say.

[optician01]

i saw the stones bridges to babylon tour back in the late 90s at the orange bowl in miami, that was cool they had i guess you call it a runway from the stage all the to the center of the audience where they played half of the show from, that was cool cause i was right in front of the main stage so they walked right by us. i still have the t shirt

[optician01]

once again, god gives everyone a choice therefor he knows you must "think" to make your choice you are making a choice even now. the only way to "prove" gods love is to have a personal expierience with him. and athiest cannot know the love of god when they dont know him. It is a PERSONAL THING.

[LeafInTheStream]

This is of great interest to me, optician01. Do you know of any videos here on YouTube where a Christian gives a first-person account of a personal experience with God?

[optician01]

i have never looked.

[rottenrobbie7]

How can a "personal experience" be proof??? Personal experience and the mind connectd with it are among the most subjective things you can name. A man named Albert Ostman claimed a personal experience of being abducted by a Sasquatch. Shall we assume the existence of Bigfoot based on his experience or do we use the same criteria by which we measure the existence of every other living and extinct animal on the planet? Your thoughts and experiences cannot be studied, reviewed or substantiated.

[LeafInTheStream]

And Ostman's account, which cannot be proof, is still far more substantial than a supposed experience with God: at least an anthropologist can scrutinize Ostman's story and ask if the details make sense with respect to what we know about primates. No comparable conjectures can be made with regard to what God should "feel" like.

[rottenrobbie7]

Here's another thing: how do you, atheist or otherwise, "know god" when this supreme being cannot/will not "personally" communicate in a way perceivable to the senses creationists claim he gave us in the first place? "Yup I'm here, me damn it, but I built you in a way seemingly incompatible with my style of communication...even though I reeeeally want to know you and committed premeditated infanticide to drive home the point; don't use your senses though, don't think- gets in the way."

[optician01]

how can personal experience be proof? do you doubt your very own personal exp. on this earth??? what more does one need but a personal exp. of any event in life to know whats real?? havent you ever loved anyone or any thing? is LOVE fake also?just because you cant see it or touch it? well GOD is LOVE, its so simple that people cant beleive it .. as for sasquach i guess you'd have to be there! LOL oh yea is LOVE "perceiveable to your senses"? maybe not.

[rottenrobbie7]

Love is emotion. Love the idea of BF. Love doesnt prove existence; you r equating feelings with evidence. To prove experience to the public I need observable evidence, to gather info about it, form hypothesis, empirically test its validity. I See love in acts of kindness, hear it spoken, taste it if given ice cream, smell it in a doz. gifted roses, feel it in a kind touch. Which senses does god use to get our attention that don't depend on subjective emotion but are testable by all to prove?

[rottenrobbie7]

I (with respect) challenge you to apply the same reason you demonstrate when you say ,"I guess you'd have to be there." when speaking to the existance of a creature you have to date not perceived with your senses (BF) to a god that fits the same criteria. Why suspend the sense you clearly use to measure other things when god becomes the subject? That's worth thinking about imho...I did the same thing for 20+ years...

[optician01]

emotion is the by product of love,the things we may do to express that love is a by product of it. god loves us and the by product of that love is in comming to earth in the form of his own creation {man} to right the wrong that sin has done to his planet and children, we are ALL gods children, and he gives us free will. that is why you are allowed to deny gods existance without being struck down. he is not a dictator, allthough he could take that path, but god is LOVE.

[optician01]

knowing god is just like knowing a friend on earth, you feel close to each other, but if you said crap about your buddy or say went out with his girl you would not feel close to him because you sinned against him and no longer talk to him etc.. so that thing you did comes between you two. same thing with god when you are sorry for things youve done to hurt him you confess and you will feel renewed and closer to him again, i call it in balance with the universe because thats how it feels.

[rottenrobbie7]

emo•tion:a state of feeling: a conscious mental reaction (as anger or fear) *subjectively experienced* as strong *feeling* usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological/behavioral changes in the body. Subjective feelings not proof of anything but that we react cognitively/physically with the world we perceive through our senses. Ok but no outward substance verifiable, testable, knowable by others. Thanks for playing, have some lovely parting gifts for you

[rottenrobbie7]

ev•i•dence:an *outward* sign:something that furnishes proof. You've made 3 points:

-Take your word for it.

-Take the bibles word for it. -Love, personal experience and feelings=proof

*Not verifiable proof*, this is what you believe- faith in absence of evidence. Gods inability to connect with us via our senses isnt a problem for you; on that basis we can all make it up as we go along. Anecdote, story...the same mechanics prove hobbits- Tolkien wrote it, I believe it, that settles it.

[rottenrobbie7]

Knowing god is nothing like knowing a friend on earth. I can see, touch, taste (wouldnt), hear and smell him. Done that lately with God? Anyone? These things have no bearing on my standing with him, although touching, tasting and smelling him mightAbsurd my friend, nothing less.

[optician01]

i of course {should go without saying} am talking about the emotional and spirit side of a relationship. you really are haveing a hard time with any of this, i am trying to give examples.

[rottenrobbie7]

Not a bit. You have failed on all counts to show a shred of evidence of the existence of the "spiritual" or supernatural sighting unvarifiables as "proof". You clearly show that you have not only forgone any critical examination of your faith but have found bliss in your ignorance of what science has revealed to us about the cosmos, I was there too. I think you've been circumventing critical thought so long that you have forgotten how to exercise it.

[optician01]

first of all i am not a spiritular advisor of any kind, never was never said i was, i make optical lens's for a living and i am not judgeing any one if you look back in these comments you see im a rush fan and they are not into jejsus last time i checked, but think about how pissed off you were saying "are you telling me what i went though wasnt rea?' dosent that tell how real it is?

[optician01]

jesus warned us in the bible to be aware of "FALSE PROPHETS" he knew there would be cults and things.

[optician01]

i can say this, every religion has their fanatics, like the "muslim suicide bombers" who say their god says to kill everyone else, thats crap why would a creator of all people say to one group go out and kill all my other creation!! very dumb.america has fanatics also such as the k.k.k etc.. in the name of GOD!!

[optician01]

i can only say what i know to be true i wont pretend to know all about muslims.

[discussislam]

I enjoyed listening to your arguments and am with you - thanks. btw I love that song by Wishbone Ash - beautiful!

[LeafInTheStream]

Thanks for your kind comments.

The song by Wishbone Ash is "Leaf And Stream" - and I'd never heard it prior to reading your comment and doing some research. If I'd named myself after a song my user name would be "Stairway To Heaven" or "Here Comes The Sun", or maybe even "Jumpin' Jack Flash"!

[discussislam]

I liked Wishbone Ash back in the 70s and actually saw them a couple of years ago at the Cropredy festival in Oxfordshire and they played "Leaf in the Stream" - great song :)

[discussislam]

The songs you mention are also cool btw

[LeafInTheStream]

I'm pretty sure the song by Wishbone Ash is called "Leaf AND Stream", whereas I'm "Leaf IN THE Stream", see?

Anyways, I'm jealous of anyone old enough to have memories of seeing such bands back in the '70s, especially the early '70s. That's when music was music!

[discussislam]

Yes, you're right about the name lol

[optician01]

we are not just bodies that happen to have a soul we are souls first that just happen to have a temporary body but our soul is forever. this life for us is to show God the choice that we make. its all about the freedom god gives you {us} to choose. and yes you do feel the holy spirit, to know how real it is.

[optician01]

we are not suppossed to understand everything now, thats called faith. jesus said "your thoughts are not my thoughts.' think about it we are mearly mortal thats why we dont have a clue. . without faith there is no hope. when god comes to this planet it will be put back like in genisis 1. perfect

[LeafInTheStream]

Faith? OK.

But faith in what? Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any given cult that just sprang up today could make the same pitch: the almighty is greater than your understanding and does not make sense, so just have faith. But which unbelievable belief should I put my faith in?

[optician01]

put your faith in the one holy spirit that litteraly comes to dwell in you just as if an evil spirit may come to dwell in you. you can litteraly "feel" the pure power of love and forgiveness. but you must really mean it when you trust god you cant fool god.

[LeafInTheStream]

Interesting.

But what is your theory about Muslims who make similar claims? Are they lying about feeling God? Delusional? Mistaken?

[optician01]

i dont beleive they ask jesus christ to be their blood sacrafice to get them into gods kingdom.

[LeafInTheStream]

What I meant by "similar claims" (perhaps I could have been more clear) is that they might tell me that if I trust Allah I will literally feel his spirit overtake me, etc.

[optician01]

AGAIN dont try to "THINK" like a supernatural being (GOD) dont try to assume that your mortal brain is capable

of out thinking the creator.THIS IS AN EVIL PLANET!!! BAD SHIT WILL HAPPEN!!

SIN CAUSES BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN

EVEN TO THOSE WHO DONT DESERVE IT> GOD NEVER SAID IT WOULD BE EASY!!! RIGHT NOW THIS IS A TEST BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, IN FACT IT WILL GET ALOT WORSE FOR GODS PEOPLE!!! "blessed are those who suffer in my name, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"!!

[optician01]

god created us in his own image to be his friend and love him he is giving us a choice he is not causeing or stoping any evil thing we do or that happens on this earth right now because satan is the prince of this planet for now.

[rationalwarrior]

Wow! Great response. If a being is all powerful then he must be responsible for everything that happens as well. He would have the power to stop bad things from happening and if he doesn't, then he is just as guilty as the offender.

[LeafInTheStream]

Pretty much. I mean, how we would feel about grandpa if he just stood there and watched while little Timmy drowned - especially if he could have saved Timmy with no effort whatsoever? All would recognize this as an unspeakably evil act perpetrated upon not just little Timmy, but upon Timmy's family as well.

[michelle2chat]

Leaf, you'd have a point if it were not for God sending His Son.

The reality is, God *did* do something about our sin problem. He did not stand back and allow us to perish. Salvation is freely offered to all who will choose to believe.

[LeafInTheStream]

But how do I know what to choose to believe? Other religions, and even newer cults, could make promises / threats of their own, imploring you and me to just choose to believe. On what basis do I choose between all the options?

And what about murdered children? The terror of their final moments (hours? days?), the unspeakable agony of their parents final *decades* - talk about hell on earth. What can be said about a God that allows these things?

[michelle2chat]

I personally view hell as a place where souls "self-torture" themselves to the point of insanity, due to the unimaginable magnitude of the amount of deep regret they will experience (and be unable to rid themselves of since there will be no way for them to ever find peace) when they realize their foolishness.

[LeafInTheStream]

But how do you "go insane", "regret", "experience", or "realize" after you've lost your brain? People with mere damage to the brain lose their abilities to have certain experiences and realizations, etc, and death entails a heck of a lot of brain damage, no?

[michelle2chat]

Great question, Leaf. The bible teaches there will be a resurrection after death, for both believers (resurrection unto life) and unbelievers (resurrection unto death). I'm not sure how the nuts and bolts of that will work, but, the bible describes a "gnashing of teeth" among other things.

[holybabble]

michelle: i'm sure you're genuine in your beliefs, but...get a grip. how long does it take for this soul to 'self-torture' themselves to the point of insanity? can you imagine how long 100 years of torture would seem? 1000 years? 10,000? 10,000,000,000,000? each would be no closer to eternity. yes...it is that ridiculous.

[michelle2chat]

holybabble, the genuineness of my belief is irrelevant to whether or not what I believe is true.

If people can become insane during their life here on earth then yeah I have no problem supposing there will be insanity in hell.

My believing it... and your disbelieving it....neither has any bearing on whether its true or not...it cannot be proven...so its a bit hard to proceed from here. Peace.

[holybabble]

same old song

just a drop of water in an endless sea'

all we do crumbles to the ground

though we refuse to see....

ahhh, dust in the wind

all we are is dust in the wind.....

[optician01]

our minds are flesh and blood we cannot "think" like GOD and we are not supposed to, we will understand it all when we go to "the other side" but our thoughts arent even close to rationizeing these things exept GOD says to have faith in him,DONT TRY TO THINK LIKE GOD HE IS SUPERNATURAL AND WE ARE NOT. our thoughts are not his thoughts.

[rottenrobbie7]

Optician:

Can't think like god? Not supposed to? The other side? Don't try to think like god? Our thoughts not his thoughts???

You have quite the knowledge of the supernatural for a natural being. James Randi has $1 mn. for you if you can prove it...you seem quite sure.

To decree factoids about that for which we have nothing empiricle or objective is shooting in the dark. Before you talk about biblical inerrancy, we might well believe in hobbits under the same criteria-faith, not fact.

[LeafInTheStream]

There you go again trying to think, rottenrobbie7. You're just not getting it, are you? ;)

[rottenrobbie7]

Damned annoying habit, I know. I'll really must make a better effort to stop thinking and have faith...I hear they don't like that sort of thing on "the other side".

[philhellenes]

"...And then God transports her to Hell...she split up the Beatles."

Dry, comedic timing of the HIGHEST order! Wonderful. Got a huge laugh from me, yet a lot of theists would miss the acidic sarcasm buried below. It's hard to keep your face straight sometimes, huh? Laughter is the weapon of choice.

[LeafInTheStream]

For me it's almost impossible to keep a straight face - I don't know how I got through this. I could have assembled another blooper real full of "let's just say that God forbid Yoko Ono dies" takes as well.

[LeafInTheStream]

Crap! Of course I meant "blooper REEL." My first ever spelling mistake!

[holybabble]

you gotta be fuckin' kidding me! this is ridiculously good man!

good bless,

adam

[LeafInTheStream]

In certain places I was "fuckin' kidding"!

[0ranjiboom]

Interesting video. Keep them coming.

[LeafInTheStream]

Thanks. I will.