What about Fable 3? You had basically four choices, complete monster(turn your nation into a horrid place and steal the money for your own enjoyment and letting everyone die to the final boss), hated by those you saved(doing the same thing but not taking the money for your own enjoyment and noone dies to the final boss), kind hearted but hated anyway(making the land into a paradise and then having everyone die to the final boss and everyone hating you anyway), and then the near impossible, perf
@ES21007 Yeah I was makign that comment on the iphone app, part of what I said got cut off. I was going to finish saying that it was nearly impossible to get the perfect, because you'd need to raise an entire kingdoms worth of funds on your own. Which was much harder to do than anything else in the game. (Unless you farmed minigames XD)
There's something here I don't understand. In another episode, you faulted Bioshock for tying its choice system into one of its core game mechanics (the amount of EVE you receive, if I guessed correctly). But now you say that games should make it harder to make the right choice, which is what Bioshock did by not letting you have as much EVE if you saved the little girl than if you just harvested and killed her. Did I miss something?
@SamuraiSammich I think you're missing the fact that tying your moral choice to how much stuff you get isn't the best way to develop meaningful and hard to make choices. He's not suggesting that we should make it hard to make the right choice by pitting greed against you, he's suggesting we make the choice difficult by making things morally ambiguous.
@SamuraiSammich Actually, with Tenebaum's (hope I spelled that right) "presents" you gain more EVE from saving little sisters, so harvesting them actually costs and ALSO there is a 100 GS achievement for saving all the little sisters... so, yeah... Great GREAT game but, they fucked up...
There actually is a good example of a difficult moral choice (kinda) in Neir, one of the endings allows you to save your daughter and a fellow party member who is turning into a monster. But the cost of doing so is to "Erase yourself from history", it deletes all of your save files and your progress. And if you look at how hard it is to get a 100% completion in that game....to lose it all can be a tough decision.
@ThePivotSlicer yeah. cos good is stupid. cos ther hole thing is stupid. instead of bland system like that there shuld be real questions. shadow of collosus is perfect. what if bioshock whuld have similar factor, that if you dont harvest the little sisters someone important to you will die, but if you save instead of harvesting you save the little sisters but the lets say girlfriend dies. that whuld be instresting.
Heck, The most difficult moral quandary I've experienced in a game is in Skyward Sword (of all places). The "Item check girl" side quest (offers 5 gratitude crystals, which I really want), lets you choose between telling the aforementioned girl you love her when she confesses her own to you (making her happy, but you possibly feeling like a cheating a**hole), or say you don't (making her father happy, but crushing her and sending her back into her apparent severe depression).
Oh, and there wasn't just "Good" or "evil," you could go full pacifist, run often but fight back in a sticky situation, just fire on those in your way, only target the commanders, take out the weaklings but leave the tougher ones, refuse to leave the sector until you are the only living thing remaining, or pretty much anything else.
Iji (the character) would choke out a tearful "I'm sorry" or so after the first few kills, but at ~100, she says "JUST DIE!"
I LOVED the morality system in Iji (It's a freeware Indie game, go look it up). My favorite part of it was it's subtlety.
It never had moral choice situations, karma meters, etc. Your choices varied dialogue, enemy behaviors, textlogs, and so on and so forth.
Iji would talk to the bosses, and request they leave, depending on your actions, they would try to justify their actions, refuse, or call you out for decrying violence immediately after slaughtering a good 150+ of their friends.
I'm surprised they didn't use the original Deus Ex's possible endings, followed by the difficulty (which is more variable than linear), that each one poses.
I love games with morality... and I need something similar... like for example Fallout or The Elder Scrolls, but where I can either turn my kingdom/surroundings/WHATEVAH into something like paradise or TOTAL EVIL CHAOTIC HORROR-stuff!
perhaps many game developers are sort of out of touch with gamers, and assume we don't understand morality as anything other then black and white, or perhaps the developers and writers have poor moral understanding, but either way, I agree, I hate putting numbers on good deeds, or having a "reward" system for getting a certain amount of "said" points. Fable 2+ has an absurd moral system, as well as many other games, and Bioshock didn't even make sense with it's setting, everything attacks you.
Is the part where some people like you while others don't in Sid Meiers Pirates game? So like you could be well liked by the French and hated by the Spanish, being attacked on site
if u r buying a burger ,because u wer gennuinely hungry and not going for a snack ,then u have a right to go spend that money on that burger ...giving the beggar the money isnt the right thing becasue then u wud sacrifice on ur own basic need ..It's not like they the money belongs to them is it..Thats fucked up thinking like that
I think that the Mass Effect morality dimension just kept the game down a lot. I mean, they systematically placed the 'good' and 'bad' speech options on top and bottom. I sometimes end up just hitting the top option every time, before reading it and deciding if it's something I would ever say. Now considering that they have to add a set of archetypal speech options, I would have loved to see some more potent corners of ethics. Say, Socratic, Idealist, Empiricist or Machiavellian?
This is why I like Elder Scrolls. You start off with no reputation and build up by doing quests or not doing quests. Killing or not killing. Exploring or not exploring. Meeting people or not meeting people.
I liked Mass Effect's system. Both sides are doing the right thing (thus avoiding the pitfalls of the 2-way spectrum, but the difference is one's a hero and one's an anti-hero. It makes for a completely different gaming experience. If you play Paragon, your job becomes to save the world. The story as a whole becomes about a Jedi dumped into the Star Trek universe. If you play Renegade the whole game becomes a cyberpunk examination of man's capacity for evil even when he's trying to do good.
wtf ..I mean really WTF ..."ambiguous moral choice cant solved by logic like a puzzle" ..well how else wud u solve it jackass....this thing is interesting n stff..but wat the guy says is half baked ..for show and impression. He treats the viewer like a brain dulled average 65 year old..
@paulthecoolest I hope you die you fucking sack of cum. You don't get it, ambiguous means that you hesitate on the choice. Why do you hesitate? To ponder the choice. Why ponder the choice? Because you cannot choose if you base yourself on pure logic. Why? Because it is a moral dilemna: doing good, but be immoral; or, doing bad, but be proud of yourself afterwards. It can't be solved by logic.
@barryasswipe How wud doing good be immoral ,or doing bad get you to be proud of yourself. Referring to the that fallout 3 ex 3:54 .. That cud be easily solved if you REALLY had a conscience.Obviously killing is morally worse than kidnapping a child ,especially if it wud lead to curing a disease f a larger grp of ppl,at same time ,if u wer to kill the leader then ,then u wud nt only sacrifice his life but also put in danger the life of his whole group because of their disease.Cont>
@barryasswipe >And if ambiguos means hesistation ,then wouldnt math problems be ambiguous ,But it isnt is it .At the end of the day everyone gets the same answer ,no matter which route they seem to take.The same applies here .There is a clear line between whats good and whats bad when u think of it v broadly and in a whole picture kind of way,and if dont get that ,then u dont understand what I am trying to say..
@paulthecoolest I'm sorry, I didn't express myself clearly enough: a moral dilemma is when you do something "bad" (kill, kidnap, etc.) for a "reason" (a moral reason) and vice versa. And no I don't think that math problems are ambiguous, because they have only one good answer. Plus, I though kidnapping the child meant also killing it to find a cure for a disease... If it does not imply killing you are right.
@barryasswipe I did get what u were trying to say just confused at how u said it. The whole thing can be weighed like in a balance ,Sometimes we just need disperse ourselves of our filters in order look a situation in clinical way and find out what is truly right,And doing this may personally bring you down ,or maybe cross moral code you have .But if its really for the greater good ,do u really need to feel bad ,I dont think so personally.It isnt any humane than say mercy killing
@barryasswipe Almost 99% of the time yes we can think through to know what the real greater good is..But the rest 1 % ..a rarity when it comes to our hands and only us to say choose b/w two decision both of which could lead to death of the same no. of ppl .but u dont know anything else .what sort of ppl they are or even get a third choice of doing nothing. In this kind of a situation , what I wud is opt to wait and debunk the situation and if there is a third self-made choice>
@barryasswipe Like say snatching the remote control of bombs from the terrorist who is doing all of this ,and destroying it or talking him out of doing this completely .ofcourse this property of life to stimulate and kneed yourself into immense possibilities might not be really applicable in video games.So you might be right in asking if there wud really be a greater good ,because sometimes there might enough info. to know that and not enough options to select something else ..>
@barryasswipe But then again this kind of situation isnt morally ambigous ,because both the options are morally neautral,and selcting one over the other, doesnt mean u r bad or u r good. U really DONT have to even think at such situation (in video games ie) because we can afford the randomness. Thereby negating the first point of creating any moral ambiguity and making ppl think. What I am tryig to say is there isnt enough originality OR plausibility of such things in games .
@Remdog44 Really? I decided in less than three seconds: saving thousands by (possibly) killing one who wouldn't even properly register that she was about to die? Maybe I'm an ice-cold bastard, but that was one of the easiest choices I made in Fallout 3. The question of whether to treat or mercy kill that guy on the factory floor was harder for me.
@arahman56 Eh. While Morrigan is at first (and second, and probably third) a horrendous "what's in it for me?" style of asshole, she's got a moral code and cares for people. It's just looser than her default clothes. Even some moments that could just be bad communication between writers could be an intentional window into an inconsistent worldview.
If DA:O NEEDS to have a failing, it's that the warden is too effective as a hero. Every warden has their cake and eats it too.
when ever i play a game, i always be good, than after a week or two i play the game again as evil and have so much more fun being evil. everything become easier because i dont give aways any money or have to go out the way to be good and thus have much more resources avaliable, this i prevalant in Fallout 3,KOTOR 2, and Fable II. its almost like the game punishes you to be good but than seems disapointed when you are evil. just seems kinda lopsided, ir ur good you have to pay for it, i guess...
The first 2 Fallout games did not have the Good/Evil system that Bethesdas FO games did. They had a Reputation system, where different people would react differently to the choices you made in-game. This is the best method, imo, because in real life, morality mostly comes from how other people see you, not some inherent good/evilness.
The original Fallout games did not have a Good/Evil system Bethesdas FO games did. They had a reputation meter, where different people would react differently to the kind of character you became in-game. This is the best method, imo, because in real life, morality mostly comes from how other people see you, not some inherent good/evilness.
So yeah Skyrim does a great job of this...Also thought Fable 3 did a pretty good job, although I see what you mean by the clearly evil and clearly good choices being kinda lame. I just liked how in Fable 3 if you wanted to be good it made things difficult whereas being evil made the game so much easier. I wish more games would start doing this
kirithem, you just gained a new fan. i grew up in a culture where good and evil doesnt exist but only conciquences. you pretty much nailed it when explaining the flaw mechanic of good vs evil. as many of you know, you expect a justice hero to do good. but in definition of justice hero is a person or a group forcing their ideal and moral belief onto other that opposes. guess who fits that description? superman or dare i say hitler as well?
While infamous 2 doesn't really go more into the grey area of things in the wide scope of things, in the ending choices are very much based on the kind of person you are; will you save the few people you know you can save or will you use a method which you haven't tried and are not sure will work? that is a good step forward
Morality isn't "black and white" or "shades of gray"; it's rather a whole spectrum of colours.
A hero can be an idealistic optimist, or a cynical pragmatist. A hero can value freedom, or the rule of law. A hero can be polite and kind, or an anti-social jerk. He can be any combination of these.
The hero can also value one thing over another. For example, the Bhelen/Harrowmont choice in DAO: What comes first? The nation's prosperity, or the comfort of the people living in it?
He forgets that games like Deus Ex use a hidden morality system. What about Oblivion? Another game with strong morality. Besides Skyrim should do most of what he's davy saying should be done.
Iji is a game that is basically one big moral choice: violence or pacifism. It makes up the core of the story, which changes dramatically based on how you act and alters the gameplay.
Killing enemies gets you more XP, making it easier to survive, but also makes the story more depressing. Going peaceful makes it harder, but gives a much more rewarding ending. If you want that good ending, you're going to have to WORK for it. (Iji's free. Get it.)
@TeraChimera I don't like this solution. It is not ambiguous. Plus, the quality of endings should not be different. They should be good in their own ways. For example, in inFamous, both endings were pretty well done. Evil gameplay was more unrestricted and dangerous to everybody around you, but good gameplay made you think a little more. Both were difficult in different ways.
Other commenters mentioned this but it is worthwhile repeating - no discussion of moral choice in video games is complete without mentioning The Witcher. Talk about ambiguous, the central moral choice - supporting the Scoia'tael or the Flaming Rose - is a choice between the lesser of two evils. I haven't played The Witcher 2 yet, but I imagine the choices are similar.
If you ask me, INfamous did have a few missions that made you think. In a few missions and sidequests, watertowers have been poisoned. You could overload it, killing everyone in the building, or you could blast it, getting the stuff on you, although it takes 2 electricity away, which fremoves the thinking part quickly.
I thought Alpha Protocol did pretty cool in this aspect. there were different choices to make that would change your affiliation with different people around you and the choice, most of the time, wasn't clear. but then again that was what that game was based on.
@Skydance1110 DA2 was bad in my opinion, Deus Ex: Human Revolution was absolutely brilliant, but not released at the time of this video's release. Human Revolution's end has one of the best, but kind of contrived, moral endings ever.
i must say this was a great presentation but if you have played fall out new vegas the whole ambiguity thing works and doesnt work at the same time i thought it was interesting with so many factions but i found problems that were more irratating than challenging we have to watch to not cross the line between reality and a gm because we often play to escape the troubles of reality which is a paradox in it of its self
I felt as though you had to look past your own morality when it came to The Pitt.
As it turns out the apparently "evil" choice saved far more lives in the long run. and the apparently "good choice," allowed the current problems the people were facing to escalate.
Watching this inspired me with ideas for the independent project I'm working on. Incredible, dynamic, ground-breaking ideas. Which also pretty much guarantees they'll be rejected by my programmer.
You know, I think Black and White (the game) was actually quite good with this. Being "evil" was so much easier in the short run, but you ran into problems in the long run. I think that could be elaborated on so much more than it is currently, rather than striving for the sort of muddy "none of your choices are really good", "that's because this is such a malevolent world we live in" morality we see in many "great" morality systems.
For actual nonlinear morality that only took a finely wed couple to accomplish is a game called "Mount & Blade: Warband", where Moral choices are based on personal agenda and goals. The player himself does whatever fits his fancy from merchant to gladiator. The Faction system is also nonlinear since everyone fights for domination in their own way. The Path of life is also quite a must in this game.
Your idea of bar morality?? Its already done in Freelancer.
Personally in my limited gaming experiences, ive only seen one good application of a this or that choice in a game. Starcraft II singleplayer included a few choice moments, of trusting one player over another, saving a plague or purifying it to gain the respect of the protoss. I had to leave the computer, ponder it, and come back still unsure if i was making the right decision. it was difficult, something most choices arent.
I like the Megami Tensei system for "Good and Evil" because it really boils down to making the best out of a shit situation. SMT games have the option of three different moralities. Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic. But Lawful isn't Good. God basically wants to take over the world in Strange Journey where they'll give everyone safety at the cost of their freedom. Chaos is Lucifer asking that you wage war on God and let Demons roam the Earth freely, however it becomes survival of the fittest.
One thing I'd like to see with that color wheel idea is something where each color represented a philosophical or political ideology, and complementary colors were opposed beliefs. Something like Capitalism vs Communism, Idealism vs Pragmatism, Predestination vs Free will, that sort of thing.
What if a game with a Karma meter, Fallout for example, decided to get rid of its Karma meter but keep the effects of "good" and "evil" decisions? Like something of an Invisible Karma meter. It'd be a good "in the meantime" sort of solution.
@XzoahX In Fable 3, making the "good" options (like increasing the amount of unemployed cityfolk and failing to improve the economy by declaring some forest with rare metals a nature reserve) has, as only penalty, having to leave your computer or xbox on for about an hour or so while money appears out of thin air. It's not a choice, it's a problem (in the video sense), and the solution is waiting for a while.
Honestly, fable 3 is one of the worst designed AAA games of this decade.
@XzoahX And no, having the "time left" counter suddenly decrease with huge jumps doesn't make it any more of a choice, because all it does is change the stakes at the last minute like a poorly constructed philosophical though experiment. The main character's personality is flat, the social interaction unnecessary and mechanical, the gameplay shoddy, the sidequests basic, the free roaming an illusion, and the moral choices linear and simple. The only thing for it is that it's got British people.
the racism in such decision is apparent. having bad folks in black clothes,skin, cars, dark skies, etc. let's stop the brainwashing and racism. it hurts society.
Hey, with the game shelf at 8:31, does anyone know what the games between PGA Tour and Wii Play and the one before Elebits are? I can't make out their titles.
Catherine has another good system for a choice bar because it isn't a good/evil bar. I don't want to spoil what it is but not throwing choices where you either do something definitively "good" or doing something forcefully "evil" gives you more of an incentive to be honest and allow more compelling decisions. So there is something there too.
@TheClubbman True, I did like the "faithful" bar that they gave. It was a nice change from the Good and Bad one, however it was still linear. All it did was make me play the game twice, once as a completely faithful boyfriend, and the other as a massive cheater. It didn't really open any new concept, but that colourwheel that was talked about could be interesting. It brings in a new perspective and gives new reasons for player choice, rather than classifying them as just one thing or the other.
In Harvest Moon, you know what is objectively good after you read guides on the Internet: giving them things and getting along with them, except they are tedious and most people are tempted to sleep and skip a day. However, there are events where you must increase someone's friendship while losing someone else's.
In the animal management part, it's just make sure you feed them and do not hit them
I think people were confused by Mass Effect's choice system. I liked it (at least better than inFamous) because it wasn't a slider bar. It was to quantities that were individual sums of your total experience. And it wasn't even the point value that was the focus. It was the weight of each action, and knowing full well that you influenced certain characters that well come back to either aid you or bite you in ass.
This made me think of the final choice in GTA IV, where revenge and cooperation seem to both be fairly good options considering Dimitri's cruelties and un-trustworthiness. Both decisions lead to a character's death, but the "nice" option led to Mallorie's death, which was much less dreadful than Roman's death. After all, Roman was the first character you interact with and a pretty funny one at that.
I laughed at the part where you said the moral choices in games are very cheap. I agree; if there is no cost to be payed for good deeds, 99% of human beings can become an angel. It is that little cost(negligible or not) that turns about 90% of those 99% into selfish egoists that most of us are.
What games did you participate in the development? After watching this, I feel obligated to play games you created, not for a judgement, but for I 100% agree with your argument. To hell with those childish games with solely good and evil. I bet children can play adult directed complex games without really understanding its context. (like Alice madness and Braid) but the counterpart is not true. I can't stand those 'save the world' with typical heroes any more.
@MrFTW733 There are problems of incomparable independent variables - freedom, life, pain, value of intelligence, unsatisfiedness, importance of self, importance of those close to you, honesty - all are things which can in no way be reduced to problems. You have to choose the relative importance of certain rules, or certain values. Given there is no god or moral authority, what relative value these things have doesn't have one correct solution. It's possible to debate endlessly about these.
@255ad Do you seriously think the simplest solution, or the most profitable in-game is the most enjoyable? Games don't have to be just about "fun" any more than movies do. There's satisfaction to be had in making the morally right choices - even if their effects are just limited to the game world.
@philip1201 I think what he meant was, doing the right thing as often as possible should be encouraged in game, but it should also make the game hard to finish, meaning to finish the game fastest you would have to compromise a lot.... why should the player care if he's a war criminal in the game, the people in the game don't exist why should he care.
"There's satisfaction to be had in making the morally right choices" only in real life where you know it's positively effecting others
@255ad Roleplaying is creating a character in-game and having that character make the decisions it would. In pretty much any game with choices, I tend to roleplay as myself. So no, if I have to choose between grinding and committing in-game mass murder, I choose grinding. Because that's what I, or my character, would do.
If you're playing RPGs without sympathizing with your character, you're doing it wrong.
Also, if the game is any good, the gameplay is fun so playing longer isn't a penalty.
@philip1201 I don't see how having an objective you have to get to as efficiently as possible is compatible with role playing, it's that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where data keeps solving the Sherlock Holmes cases in 2 seconds to Geordi's annoyance.
@255ad As I recall, he used his knowledge of the books, so then Geordi let the computer create a sentient AI which could defeat them, it tried to take over the ship and 5 years later it tried to escape again and was locked into a computer so sophisticated it wasn't distinguishable from reality.
But all nerdiness aside, objectives are eventually set by the player, not the game. As Geordi would explain to Data, it may be the "objective" of the game, but it's not the point.
To Mass Effect's credit, the Paragon/Renegade scale isn't so much of a good/evil scale as it is a idealist/pragmatist scale. Remember, Shepard comes across as the hero either way. Paragon Shepard usually goes for the kinder actions, but can also be naive (see: the genophage debate with Mordin, the fate of the Rachni). Renegade Shepard can be a jerk at times, but also takes fewer risks with his/her trust. And since the scales are independent, you can mix it up in the way that best suits you.
Granted, the gameplay still doesn't support this as well as it could. When the difference between some Paragon and the Renegade dialog choices is how grumpily you agree, why bother presenting them as choices? :P Still - it's better than a black and white sliding scale.
@strongrudder In ME1 especially though, renegade shepard is mostly an angry jerk. Shep: "No I don't want no aliens on my ship" And: "But Shepard, you need a good crew." Udi: "Yes, here have this Turian, Quarian, Krogan and Asari." S: "But i don't wanna" U:"Shut up."
I was completely surprised when Socom 4 had a moral choice at the end of it. Had no clear good or evil, just do you follow orders and capture the war criminal to face trial, or do you kill hm to ensure he doesn't get away with it.
Fallout New Vegas has the faction reputation system that you mentioned! However this was originally implemented in the original Fallout back in 1996! Plus you didn't see how much you r actions affected those factions. You may be loved in one town but were villified in another!
Fable III also had difficult moral chioces but this was when you were the king & were the only decent moral aspects of the game. Do I kepp the money to pay for the war or open up that school I promised?
I was surprised that you didn't mention The Witcher as the example of the well done moral system. The whole story of the game revolves between the good of the many (the humans) and the rights of few (elves and dwarves), and you're assume the role of outcast (Geralt) who has the power to repress the rebellion, lead it to the victory or just pursue his own coals and ignore the rest. PS: I like the show on Escapist and I was positively surprised when I found these "Pilot" episodes for ExtraCredits.
This is an unrelated note, but I felt like whenever you chose the paragon choice in Mass Effect 1 and 2, people would just give in to your logic. That almost NEVER happens in real life. BIoware ignores that intelligent life will always rationalize choices they have previously made, just to give you some fucking karma points.
@horeslayer That's because you got the blue paragon options. Usually the white paragon options fail to convince them, and the white renegade options fail to "convince" them. If you didn't put points into charm (ME1) or chose a more middle-of-the-road path to play (ME2), you might have too little charm to convince them.
The problem with this is that people are simply forced to choose between extremes. Adding more dimensions and only allowing certain areas of the field to persuade would make this
@philip1201 It didn't matter, the blue or "convincing" paragon answers got them to give in, whereas if I had provided an answer similar to that in real life, the person would probably either still try to argue or go ad hominid on my ass to try and steer the argument another way.
@philip1201 I thought that Fallout and the Witcher did a better job, you definitely needed a fuck load of exp before you talk anyone into doing what you wanted in Fallout, and the morality was much, much more ambiguous.
Cont. The decision is based on valid reasoning. Kill him, the kingslayers who had killed Foltest and now an entire kingdom, is left unchecked by it's ruler. Anarchy may ensue, the northern kingdoms will be in more disarray. Let him live, and you let a murderer who has forcibly sodomized and hung prisoners regardless of their race to gain fear from his subjects. THIS is the moral dilemma and high stakes question that is absolutely satisfying to come across because it's a balance of grey areas.
Also in The Witcher 2 *spoilers* you get one scene where you have finally reached King Henselt's lair with Roche in tow. Finally he reveals that it was all a part of his plan or atleast, that he has now all the power he needs. He even mocks Roche by calling Ves, Roche's long time companion and second in command a "whore" of sorts when he brutally raped her. You have to choose between letting Roche kill him or letting the king live.
Cont. In the Witcher, you basically had to sacrifice your own neutrality, a thing Geralt heavily holds sacred to himself, to save the witch who is being blamed for the problems of the many or side with either the nonhuman rebellion to take back their homelands and stop the humans from forcing them into the ghettos reenacting early moments in Germany before the Holocaust. Or you could protect the humans because the nonhumans are just as bloody as the zealots you work for and its your job to.
Agreed with the top comment, seriously has no one played The Witcher? This should've been your top example of a game that has reached the epitome of ambiguous storytelling without condemning or praising the actions of the hero to some linear bar ranging from good or evil. Sure Zero Punctuation offed it as well as many other reviewers, say what you will about the gameplay, but the story design is phenomenal and rivals that of Tolkien or Neil Gaiman or other writers using mythology.
infamous 2 has done a goo job of making you choose between good and evil, the good pathways are always harder than the evil ones, for instance at one point you can load a tram full of explosive and ram it though a gate to kill some enimies, or you can go free some captured cops, who r under gaurd from a shit load of enemies
who was moraly upright...but then the last tactics...its hard to even care for the character never mind, judge it with such linear story telling....And in mmorpg I dont get it it would really profit if the games are actually that engaging with the player, that it would do some good eventually!, well I guess not money wise, but what you were talking about is what makes me fantasize about being a game devoloper...not stuning graphics..yes looks is important but story and morality of the game...man
APPLAUSE I really like how you worded this problem, and games should be like that YES YES YES on what you are saying! Games can be such an indearing moral experience, I meant I remember final fantasy for example and how it is progressing game devolpment wise, ever since it became square enix and money mongering basicly, the moral plethora of the characters it used to have started going down hill...for example ff tactics series, man the first tactics was amazing story line and very hard to judge
this is why world of warcraft is a good game. you get the choice of choosing if you want to fight the horde or alliance depeands what side you are and what professions you will like to study
I know about the Fallout moral choices good: give water to homeless people, save and be friendly to people who are complete douchebags, don't blow a settlement for a snotty old guy and neutral speaks for it's self
I know about the Fallout moral choices I don't think many underaged players GOT THE MESSAGE: don't take stuff that isn't yours, don't talk to people wrong ,DON'T RANDOMLY KILL SOMEONE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO
thanks for the video. i just really wish someone would take these points into consideratyion and make a great game. everything in life is a choice and although sometimes u can guess whether what u do will have a positive or negative consequence, many times its just a matter of personal point of view on how one sees things. thats what we need to see games integrate. everything is NOT all black&white and THAT right there is the beauty of decision making. its wat makes an unforgettable experience
well my fav part about these kinda games is seeing the consequences of my actions/decisions. although it is satisfying to get some options to choose from and then pick something and see how npcs react to your choice, its much for satisfying to see the entire game change because of what you did or said. like the butterfly effect or ripple effect. having such drastic consequences that can completely alter ur gaming experience is what i want to see in these kinda games.
Iji has quite a nice 'morality' system (characters and how the interact change based on how you interact with them (not just NPCs, but also standard mooks etc). If you murder your enemies in your 'quest for peace', then no-one will take you seriously as a pacifist, whereas if you avoid killing (including basic Mooks) then people will listen to you when you try and get the fighting to stop). Pity it's a indie game and as such not many people know it...
Great Analysis of moral choices. I hope there will be games that develop a personality grid like your colour wheel, and then combine that with factions or how npc's treat you could develop a deeper and greater game. Either way great job. Maybe the shadow of collosus two will have such a thing.
How bout this. The player picks different races and or classes if the game permits at the begining as is standard. Note this could even be done in games that aren't fully RPG because the story and concept could probably be adjusted accordingly. In the game these classes and races have different values and beliefs about morality. So any choice you make can be judged against your original choices of class and race so a choice as say an elf hunter could be considered good yet the same choice by a
@somekindofawesome1 Why would the choices be predetermined from what race and class you choose? Firstly, that pretty racist (as in, attributing things to races that are not in fact linked). Secondly, you merely have separate games depending on which faction you pick and no choices to make afterwards. Thirdly, this would mean increasing game content by the sum, or perhaps even the multiple, of the choice branches you have.
I think my favorite example of moral choices is Civilization because everything you do is not graded "Good" or "Bad" but no label at all. Like when you expand your civilization, you might get closer to one way of winning the game but your people also get mad.
Actually morality is always white or black... choosing something based on what's most beneficial is just being a selfish person. And when you come upon a choice that will always have some sort of evil in it then it's evil and there's always the choice of not choosing it and looking for a justified way of doing it or even not doing it all.
What about Fable 3? You had basically four choices, complete monster(turn your nation into a horrid place and steal the money for your own enjoyment and letting everyone die to the final boss), hated by those you saved(doing the same thing but not taking the money for your own enjoyment and noone dies to the final boss), kind hearted but hated anyway(making the land into a paradise and then having everyone die to the final boss and everyone hating you anyway), and then the near impossible, perf
Blahhikablah 1 week ago
@Blahhikablah Fable 3 wasn't out when this video got released.
TheLarhf 6 days ago
@Blahhikablah
And it's not impossible to be perfect. All it takes is real estate planning from the beginning of the game.
ES21007 3 days ago
@ES21007 Yeah I was makign that comment on the iphone app, part of what I said got cut off. I was going to finish saying that it was nearly impossible to get the perfect, because you'd need to raise an entire kingdoms worth of funds on your own. Which was much harder to do than anything else in the game. (Unless you farmed minigames XD)
Blahhikablah 3 days ago
why is this video so hidden!?
TheFirstWheel 1 week ago
There's something here I don't understand. In another episode, you faulted Bioshock for tying its choice system into one of its core game mechanics (the amount of EVE you receive, if I guessed correctly). But now you say that games should make it harder to make the right choice, which is what Bioshock did by not letting you have as much EVE if you saved the little girl than if you just harvested and killed her. Did I miss something?
SamuraiSammich 2 weeks ago
@SamuraiSammich My bad, I meant ADAM. Herp a derp.
SamuraiSammich 2 weeks ago
@SamuraiSammich I think you're missing the fact that tying your moral choice to how much stuff you get isn't the best way to develop meaningful and hard to make choices. He's not suggesting that we should make it hard to make the right choice by pitting greed against you, he's suggesting we make the choice difficult by making things morally ambiguous.
JustAnotherHumanist 2 weeks ago
@SamuraiSammich Actually, with Tenebaum's (hope I spelled that right) "presents" you gain more EVE from saving little sisters, so harvesting them actually costs and ALSO there is a 100 GS achievement for saving all the little sisters... so, yeah... Great GREAT game but, they fucked up...
handyguy007 17 hours ago
Alpha Protocol: Best moral choice system EVER (despite gameplay flaws)
Mrwinnerguy 2 weeks ago
moved to the escapists.......lol
commandergs 2 weeks ago
There actually is a good example of a difficult moral choice (kinda) in Neir, one of the endings allows you to save your daughter and a fellow party member who is turning into a monster. But the cost of doing so is to "Erase yourself from history", it deletes all of your save files and your progress. And if you look at how hard it is to get a 100% completion in that game....to lose it all can be a tough decision.
AnkhOmega 3 weeks ago 2
I think that i hear a Salarian talking...
octaviohiperion 3 weeks ago
I always choose evil
ThePivotSlicer 3 weeks ago
@ThePivotSlicer yeah. cos good is stupid. cos ther hole thing is stupid. instead of bland system like that there shuld be real questions. shadow of collosus is perfect. what if bioshock whuld have similar factor, that if you dont harvest the little sisters someone important to you will die, but if you save instead of harvesting you save the little sisters but the lets say girlfriend dies. that whuld be instresting.
gethsoftware 3 weeks ago
The thumbnail's racist.
ASLmark 3 weeks ago
dungeons and dragons does this spectacularly. you have lawful, neutral and chaotic on one axis, and good, neutral and evil on another.
Necrosdragon226 4 weeks ago
Heck, The most difficult moral quandary I've experienced in a game is in Skyward Sword (of all places). The "Item check girl" side quest (offers 5 gratitude crystals, which I really want), lets you choose between telling the aforementioned girl you love her when she confesses her own to you (making her happy, but you possibly feeling like a cheating a**hole), or say you don't (making her father happy, but crushing her and sending her back into her apparent severe depression).
I'm still stuck.
anonomous1324 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Oh, and there wasn't just "Good" or "evil," you could go full pacifist, run often but fight back in a sticky situation, just fire on those in your way, only target the commanders, take out the weaklings but leave the tougher ones, refuse to leave the sector until you are the only living thing remaining, or pretty much anything else.
Iji (the character) would choke out a tearful "I'm sorry" or so after the first few kills, but at ~100, she says "JUST DIE!"
It didn't praise or reprimand you either
anonomous1324 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
I LOVED the morality system in Iji (It's a freeware Indie game, go look it up). My favorite part of it was it's subtlety.
It never had moral choice situations, karma meters, etc. Your choices varied dialogue, enemy behaviors, textlogs, and so on and so forth.
Iji would talk to the bosses, and request they leave, depending on your actions, they would try to justify their actions, refuse, or call you out for decrying violence immediately after slaughtering a good 150+ of their friends.
anonomous1324 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Is it just me or did anyone else think of Green Lantern when he was talking about the colour wheel?
MrHidePatten 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
too bad the pitt sucked
liljagsa 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Skyrim as chooses with almost no consequences
MegaSgame 1 month ago in playlist Mais vídeos de kirithem
I'm surprised they didn't use the original Deus Ex's possible endings, followed by the difficulty (which is more variable than linear), that each one poses.
AAw3s0m3 1 month ago
I love games with morality... and I need something similar... like for example Fallout or The Elder Scrolls, but where I can either turn my kingdom/surroundings/WHATEVAH into something like paradise or TOTAL EVIL CHAOTIC HORROR-stuff!
Got any games fitting that?
DreadLordBalnazaar 1 month ago
I think that paragon/renegade is stupid. You are FORCED to follow either a kind of blonde yet good paragon or an asshole yet funny renegade Shepard.
I want to be my own person. A mix of the 2 would be the perfect hero.
CortanaFTW 1 month ago
perhaps many game developers are sort of out of touch with gamers, and assume we don't understand morality as anything other then black and white, or perhaps the developers and writers have poor moral understanding, but either way, I agree, I hate putting numbers on good deeds, or having a "reward" system for getting a certain amount of "said" points. Fable 2+ has an absurd moral system, as well as many other games, and Bioshock didn't even make sense with it's setting, everything attacks you.
GrandMasterTemphis 1 month ago
Is the part where some people like you while others don't in Sid Meiers Pirates game? So like you could be well liked by the French and hated by the Spanish, being attacked on site
YamiHoOu 1 month ago
I wish more publishers would watch your videos
WickedKnightAlbel 1 month ago
Amazing video. Very well done.
monsterhunter891 1 month ago
if u r buying a burger ,because u wer gennuinely hungry and not going for a snack ,then u have a right to go spend that money on that burger ...giving the beggar the money isnt the right thing becasue then u wud sacrifice on ur own basic need ..It's not like they the money belongs to them is it..Thats fucked up thinking like that
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
Witcher 2?
Wrestlingthemeremix 1 month ago
I think that the Mass Effect morality dimension just kept the game down a lot. I mean, they systematically placed the 'good' and 'bad' speech options on top and bottom. I sometimes end up just hitting the top option every time, before reading it and deciding if it's something I would ever say. Now considering that they have to add a set of archetypal speech options, I would have loved to see some more potent corners of ethics. Say, Socratic, Idealist, Empiricist or Machiavellian?
Ultermarto 1 month ago
This is why I like Elder Scrolls. You start off with no reputation and build up by doing quests or not doing quests. Killing or not killing. Exploring or not exploring. Meeting people or not meeting people.
xXRogueFloppersXx 1 month ago
I liked Mass Effect's system. Both sides are doing the right thing (thus avoiding the pitfalls of the 2-way spectrum, but the difference is one's a hero and one's an anti-hero. It makes for a completely different gaming experience. If you play Paragon, your job becomes to save the world. The story as a whole becomes about a Jedi dumped into the Star Trek universe. If you play Renegade the whole game becomes a cyberpunk examination of man's capacity for evil even when he's trying to do good.
commissarusa 2 months ago
also, faction is in spore
JollyManProductions 2 months ago
kidnap girl and save poor slaves
or
kill slave leader that probably doesnt deserve it and save girl?
tough choice...
JollyManProductions 2 months ago
@JollyManProductions the girl will die if you kidnap her.
barryasswipe 1 month ago
wtf ..I mean really WTF ..."ambiguous moral choice cant solved by logic like a puzzle" ..well how else wud u solve it jackass....this thing is interesting n stff..but wat the guy says is half baked ..for show and impression. He treats the viewer like a brain dulled average 65 year old..
paulthecoolest 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@paulthecoolest I hope you die you fucking sack of cum. You don't get it, ambiguous means that you hesitate on the choice. Why do you hesitate? To ponder the choice. Why ponder the choice? Because you cannot choose if you base yourself on pure logic. Why? Because it is a moral dilemna: doing good, but be immoral; or, doing bad, but be proud of yourself afterwards. It can't be solved by logic.
barryasswipe 1 month ago
@barryasswipe How wud doing good be immoral ,or doing bad get you to be proud of yourself. Referring to the that fallout 3 ex 3:54 .. That cud be easily solved if you REALLY had a conscience.Obviously killing is morally worse than kidnapping a child ,especially if it wud lead to curing a disease f a larger grp of ppl,at same time ,if u wer to kill the leader then ,then u wud nt only sacrifice his life but also put in danger the life of his whole group because of their disease.Cont>
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
@barryasswipe >And if ambiguos means hesistation ,then wouldnt math problems be ambiguous ,But it isnt is it .At the end of the day everyone gets the same answer ,no matter which route they seem to take.The same applies here .There is a clear line between whats good and whats bad when u think of it v broadly and in a whole picture kind of way,and if dont get that ,then u dont understand what I am trying to say..
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
@paulthecoolest I'm sorry, I didn't express myself clearly enough: a moral dilemma is when you do something "bad" (kill, kidnap, etc.) for a "reason" (a moral reason) and vice versa. And no I don't think that math problems are ambiguous, because they have only one good answer. Plus, I though kidnapping the child meant also killing it to find a cure for a disease... If it does not imply killing you are right.
barryasswipe 1 month ago
@barryasswipe I did get what u were trying to say just confused at how u said it. The whole thing can be weighed like in a balance ,Sometimes we just need disperse ourselves of our filters in order look a situation in clinical way and find out what is truly right,And doing this may personally bring you down ,or maybe cross moral code you have .But if its really for the greater good ,do u really need to feel bad ,I dont think so personally.It isnt any humane than say mercy killing
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
@paulthecoolest Ok, but the real question is: is there really a "greater good"?
barryasswipe 1 month ago
@barryasswipe Almost 99% of the time yes we can think through to know what the real greater good is..But the rest 1 % ..a rarity when it comes to our hands and only us to say choose b/w two decision both of which could lead to death of the same no. of ppl .but u dont know anything else .what sort of ppl they are or even get a third choice of doing nothing. In this kind of a situation , what I wud is opt to wait and debunk the situation and if there is a third self-made choice>
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
@barryasswipe Like say snatching the remote control of bombs from the terrorist who is doing all of this ,and destroying it or talking him out of doing this completely .ofcourse this property of life to stimulate and kneed yourself into immense possibilities might not be really applicable in video games.So you might be right in asking if there wud really be a greater good ,because sometimes there might enough info. to know that and not enough options to select something else ..>
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
@barryasswipe But then again this kind of situation isnt morally ambigous ,because both the options are morally neautral,and selcting one over the other, doesnt mean u r bad or u r good. U really DONT have to even think at such situation (in video games ie) because we can afford the randomness. Thereby negating the first point of creating any moral ambiguity and making ppl think. What I am tryig to say is there isnt enough originality OR plausibility of such things in games .
paulthecoolest 1 month ago
I remember siting wondering to myself whether or not to take the baby, it was really pretty hard to decide.
Remdog44 2 months ago
@Remdog44 Really? I decided in less than three seconds: saving thousands by (possibly) killing one who wouldn't even properly register that she was about to die? Maybe I'm an ice-cold bastard, but that was one of the easiest choices I made in Fallout 3. The question of whether to treat or mercy kill that guy on the factory floor was harder for me.
SingularNinjular 2 months ago
Well, Dragon Age used the "Character Approval"system instead of morality... but then Morrigan happened.
arahman56 2 months ago 22
@arahman56 And sten
werewolfmaster2 2 weeks ago
@arahman56 Eh. While Morrigan is at first (and second, and probably third) a horrendous "what's in it for me?" style of asshole, she's got a moral code and cares for people. It's just looser than her default clothes. Even some moments that could just be bad communication between writers could be an intentional window into an inconsistent worldview.
If DA:O NEEDS to have a failing, it's that the warden is too effective as a hero. Every warden has their cake and eats it too.
asquii 2 weeks ago
thats true in life that being good is hard and you have to pay extra even tho you wont get rewarded for it
helloimtom100 2 months ago
when ever i play a game, i always be good, than after a week or two i play the game again as evil and have so much more fun being evil. everything become easier because i dont give aways any money or have to go out the way to be good and thus have much more resources avaliable, this i prevalant in Fallout 3,KOTOR 2, and Fable II. its almost like the game punishes you to be good but than seems disapointed when you are evil. just seems kinda lopsided, ir ur good you have to pay for it, i guess...
helloimtom100 2 months ago
let's go way back: Riven ...not about morals :P
aptspire 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The first 2 Fallout games did not have the Good/Evil system that Bethesdas FO games did. They had a Reputation system, where different people would react differently to the choices you made in-game. This is the best method, imo, because in real life, morality mostly comes from how other people see you, not some inherent good/evilness.
MCHellshit 3 months ago
The original Fallout games did not have a Good/Evil system Bethesdas FO games did. They had a reputation meter, where different people would react differently to the kind of character you became in-game. This is the best method, imo, because in real life, morality mostly comes from how other people see you, not some inherent good/evilness.
MCHellshit 3 months ago
in the pit i kill ashur for his armor steal the babei kill his wife then i kil the other dude silently cause i dont really like him
saytar98 3 months ago
Do i kill this little girl and eat her soul to grow my own unholy power? -correct] that is what the answer is allways
MrGrimmiefan 3 months ago
IIRC, King Arthur: The Roleplaying Wargame had a similar morality meter to the colour wheel.
ownedinthe2260 3 months ago
So yeah Skyrim does a great job of this...Also thought Fable 3 did a pretty good job, although I see what you mean by the clearly evil and clearly good choices being kinda lame. I just liked how in Fable 3 if you wanted to be good it made things difficult whereas being evil made the game so much easier. I wish more games would start doing this
chinchilla0505 3 months ago
kirithem, you just gained a new fan. i grew up in a culture where good and evil doesnt exist but only conciquences. you pretty much nailed it when explaining the flaw mechanic of good vs evil. as many of you know, you expect a justice hero to do good. but in definition of justice hero is a person or a group forcing their ideal and moral belief onto other that opposes. guess who fits that description? superman or dare i say hitler as well?
tkoizumi 3 months ago
While infamous 2 doesn't really go more into the grey area of things in the wide scope of things, in the ending choices are very much based on the kind of person you are; will you save the few people you know you can save or will you use a method which you haven't tried and are not sure will work? that is a good step forward
TheJimiJJ 3 months ago
Morality isn't "black and white" or "shades of gray"; it's rather a whole spectrum of colours.
A hero can be an idealistic optimist, or a cynical pragmatist. A hero can value freedom, or the rule of law. A hero can be polite and kind, or an anti-social jerk. He can be any combination of these.
The hero can also value one thing over another. For example, the Bhelen/Harrowmont choice in DAO: What comes first? The nation's prosperity, or the comfort of the people living in it?
IAmTheStig320 3 months ago
He forgets that games like Deus Ex use a hidden morality system. What about Oblivion? Another game with strong morality. Besides Skyrim should do most of what he's davy saying should be done.
xenoranger79 3 months ago
+1 to sanctimony! damn I want that t-shirt. lol
Lindax 3 months ago
Fallout 3's "great writing"
BahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
uninterestingentity 4 months ago
Iji is a game that is basically one big moral choice: violence or pacifism. It makes up the core of the story, which changes dramatically based on how you act and alters the gameplay.
Killing enemies gets you more XP, making it easier to survive, but also makes the story more depressing. Going peaceful makes it harder, but gives a much more rewarding ending. If you want that good ending, you're going to have to WORK for it. (Iji's free. Get it.)
I'd go on, but I don't have enough characters.
TeraChimera 4 months ago
@TeraChimera I don't like this solution. It is not ambiguous. Plus, the quality of endings should not be different. They should be good in their own ways. For example, in inFamous, both endings were pretty well done. Evil gameplay was more unrestricted and dangerous to everybody around you, but good gameplay made you think a little more. Both were difficult in different ways.
SevereMalfunction7 3 months ago
Other commenters mentioned this but it is worthwhile repeating - no discussion of moral choice in video games is complete without mentioning The Witcher. Talk about ambiguous, the central moral choice - supporting the Scoia'tael or the Flaming Rose - is a choice between the lesser of two evils. I haven't played The Witcher 2 yet, but I imagine the choices are similar.
AdvocatusThei 4 months ago
If you ask me, INfamous did have a few missions that made you think. In a few missions and sidequests, watertowers have been poisoned. You could overload it, killing everyone in the building, or you could blast it, getting the stuff on you, although it takes 2 electricity away, which fremoves the thinking part quickly.
sonicrocks942 4 months ago
Wait he said that... Wow i'm a noob
mins332 4 months ago
I have a solution. Factions!
mins332 4 months ago
I thought Alpha Protocol did pretty cool in this aspect. there were different choices to make that would change your affiliation with different people around you and the choice, most of the time, wasn't clear. but then again that was what that game was based on.
vincentdarkrosrayne 5 months ago
Hm, Dragon Age II and Deus Ex: Human Revolution?
Skydance1110 5 months ago 27
@Skydance1110 DA2 was bad in my opinion, Deus Ex: Human Revolution was absolutely brilliant, but not released at the time of this video's release. Human Revolution's end has one of the best, but kind of contrived, moral endings ever.
TheLarhf 6 days ago
@Skydance1110 in deus ex is not to hard to decide even in the final of the game.
AndsGallego 3 days ago
i bet daniel floyd is the one who influenced fallout new vegas......
emv321 5 months ago
Wow I just finished playing Catherine on the ps3 and this video totally made me rethink it's entire plot. Awesome video!
RikaNiriki 5 months ago in playlist More videos from kirithem
The last part of fable 3 was good, but i like his colour wheel better
TheGodofspeed 5 months ago
i must say this was a great presentation but if you have played fall out new vegas the whole ambiguity thing works and doesnt work at the same time i thought it was interesting with so many factions but i found problems that were more irratating than challenging we have to watch to not cross the line between reality and a gm because we often play to escape the troubles of reality which is a paradox in it of its self
pimp963 5 months ago
*FALLOUT 3 SPOILER*
I felt as though you had to look past your own morality when it came to The Pitt.
As it turns out the apparently "evil" choice saved far more lives in the long run. and the apparently "good choice," allowed the current problems the people were facing to escalate.
SerratedXx 5 months ago
Watching this inspired me with ideas for the independent project I'm working on. Incredible, dynamic, ground-breaking ideas. Which also pretty much guarantees they'll be rejected by my programmer.
Seijitsu0 5 months ago in playlist More videos from kirithem
And then came the Heavy Rain :D
TheHistoryOne 5 months ago
You know, I think Black and White (the game) was actually quite good with this. Being "evil" was so much easier in the short run, but you ran into problems in the long run. I think that could be elaborated on so much more than it is currently, rather than striving for the sort of muddy "none of your choices are really good", "that's because this is such a malevolent world we live in" morality we see in many "great" morality systems.
fab006 5 months ago
For actual nonlinear morality that only took a finely wed couple to accomplish is a game called "Mount & Blade: Warband", where Moral choices are based on personal agenda and goals. The player himself does whatever fits his fancy from merchant to gladiator. The Faction system is also nonlinear since everyone fights for domination in their own way. The Path of life is also quite a must in this game.
Your idea of bar morality?? Its already done in Freelancer.
JadenKy 5 months ago
Personally in my limited gaming experiences, ive only seen one good application of a this or that choice in a game. Starcraft II singleplayer included a few choice moments, of trusting one player over another, saving a plague or purifying it to gain the respect of the protoss. I had to leave the computer, ponder it, and come back still unsure if i was making the right decision. it was difficult, something most choices arent.
scoutwags 5 months ago in playlist extra creditz
I like the Megami Tensei system for "Good and Evil" because it really boils down to making the best out of a shit situation. SMT games have the option of three different moralities. Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic. But Lawful isn't Good. God basically wants to take over the world in Strange Journey where they'll give everyone safety at the cost of their freedom. Chaos is Lucifer asking that you wage war on God and let Demons roam the Earth freely, however it becomes survival of the fittest.
my18yearoldaccount 5 months ago
One thing I'd like to see with that color wheel idea is something where each color represented a philosophical or political ideology, and complementary colors were opposed beliefs. Something like Capitalism vs Communism, Idealism vs Pragmatism, Predestination vs Free will, that sort of thing.
drakeblood4 5 months ago in playlist More videos from kirithem
What if a game with a Karma meter, Fallout for example, decided to get rid of its Karma meter but keep the effects of "good" and "evil" decisions? Like something of an Invisible Karma meter. It'd be a good "in the meantime" sort of solution.
AsianFan111 5 months ago
Kill the slave leader and save the child, because the slave leader is an ass.
linkomega123 5 months ago
i guess Bethesda listened carefully to the factions part of this video when they made New Vegas!
sabrinadia 5 months ago
I'm told that Fable III does this... That last option. Making the good decisions hard/expensive. So there is hope.
XzoahX 5 months ago
@XzoahX In Fable 3, making the "good" options (like increasing the amount of unemployed cityfolk and failing to improve the economy by declaring some forest with rare metals a nature reserve) has, as only penalty, having to leave your computer or xbox on for about an hour or so while money appears out of thin air. It's not a choice, it's a problem (in the video sense), and the solution is waiting for a while.
Honestly, fable 3 is one of the worst designed AAA games of this decade.
philip1201 5 months ago
@XzoahX And no, having the "time left" counter suddenly decrease with huge jumps doesn't make it any more of a choice, because all it does is change the stakes at the last minute like a poorly constructed philosophical though experiment. The main character's personality is flat, the social interaction unnecessary and mechanical, the gameplay shoddy, the sidequests basic, the free roaming an illusion, and the moral choices linear and simple. The only thing for it is that it's got British people.
philip1201 5 months ago
the racism in such decision is apparent. having bad folks in black clothes,skin, cars, dark skies, etc. let's stop the brainwashing and racism. it hurts society.
gigagroove 6 months ago
When you said about the girl thing about eating her soul or giving back her childhood, i looked up the bioshock ending (good)
elbridge27 6 months ago
Hey, with the game shelf at 8:31, does anyone know what the games between PGA Tour and Wii Play and the one before Elebits are? I can't make out their titles.
jbevan70 6 months ago
Catherine has another good system for a choice bar because it isn't a good/evil bar. I don't want to spoil what it is but not throwing choices where you either do something definitively "good" or doing something forcefully "evil" gives you more of an incentive to be honest and allow more compelling decisions. So there is something there too.
TheClubbman 6 months ago
@TheClubbman True, I did like the "faithful" bar that they gave. It was a nice change from the Good and Bad one, however it was still linear. All it did was make me play the game twice, once as a completely faithful boyfriend, and the other as a massive cheater. It didn't really open any new concept, but that colourwheel that was talked about could be interesting. It brings in a new perspective and gives new reasons for player choice, rather than classifying them as just one thing or the other.
WolfTheGamer 6 months ago
In Harvest Moon, you know what is objectively good after you read guides on the Internet: giving them things and getting along with them, except they are tedious and most people are tempted to sleep and skip a day. However, there are events where you must increase someone's friendship while losing someone else's.
In the animal management part, it's just make sure you feed them and do not hit them
ProjSHiNKiROU 6 months ago
in oblivion i can be an assassin in secret while being a hero. i just have to prey at 9 altars to be holy again :p
ThibautVDP 6 months ago
I think people were confused by Mass Effect's choice system. I liked it (at least better than inFamous) because it wasn't a slider bar. It was to quantities that were individual sums of your total experience. And it wasn't even the point value that was the focus. It was the weight of each action, and knowing full well that you influenced certain characters that well come back to either aid you or bite you in ass.
mooseknuckle51 6 months ago
Thief 3 kinda did this faction thing well with the main groups in the game.
TheSamuraiGoomba 6 months ago
(Warning: Spoilers for Grand Theft Auto IV)
This made me think of the final choice in GTA IV, where revenge and cooperation seem to both be fairly good options considering Dimitri's cruelties and un-trustworthiness. Both decisions lead to a character's death, but the "nice" option led to Mallorie's death, which was much less dreadful than Roman's death. After all, Roman was the first character you interact with and a pretty funny one at that.
MrXman49O 6 months ago
that wheel idea is soooo good i think it should be implemeded into many games
dickcheese5150 6 months ago
Pffft, What moral do you have in video games? Everybody want kill everything that in there way. Like super mario brothers and pacman.
dragonfighter4171 7 months ago
I laughed at the part where you said the moral choices in games are very cheap. I agree; if there is no cost to be payed for good deeds, 99% of human beings can become an angel. It is that little cost(negligible or not) that turns about 90% of those 99% into selfish egoists that most of us are.
rulercoo 7 months ago
What games did you participate in the development? After watching this, I feel obligated to play games you created, not for a judgement, but for I 100% agree with your argument. To hell with those childish games with solely good and evil. I bet children can play adult directed complex games without really understanding its context. (like Alice madness and Braid) but the counterpart is not true. I can't stand those 'save the world' with typical heroes any more.
rulercoo 7 months ago
morality isn't an endless debate. it should all come down to one Way of life.
MrFTW733 7 months ago
@MrFTW733 There are problems of incomparable independent variables - freedom, life, pain, value of intelligence, unsatisfiedness, importance of self, importance of those close to you, honesty - all are things which can in no way be reduced to problems. You have to choose the relative importance of certain rules, or certain values. Given there is no god or moral authority, what relative value these things have doesn't have one correct solution. It's possible to debate endlessly about these.
philip1201 5 months ago
why would any player do the right thing if it means sacrificing enjoyment? 8:55
255ad 7 months ago
@255ad Do you seriously think the simplest solution, or the most profitable in-game is the most enjoyable? Games don't have to be just about "fun" any more than movies do. There's satisfaction to be had in making the morally right choices - even if their effects are just limited to the game world.
philip1201 5 months ago
@philip1201 I think what he meant was, doing the right thing as often as possible should be encouraged in game, but it should also make the game hard to finish, meaning to finish the game fastest you would have to compromise a lot.... why should the player care if he's a war criminal in the game, the people in the game don't exist why should he care.
"There's satisfaction to be had in making the morally right choices" only in real life where you know it's positively effecting others
255ad 5 months ago
@255ad Roleplaying is creating a character in-game and having that character make the decisions it would. In pretty much any game with choices, I tend to roleplay as myself. So no, if I have to choose between grinding and committing in-game mass murder, I choose grinding. Because that's what I, or my character, would do.
If you're playing RPGs without sympathizing with your character, you're doing it wrong.
Also, if the game is any good, the gameplay is fun so playing longer isn't a penalty.
philip1201 5 months ago
@philip1201 I don't see how having an objective you have to get to as efficiently as possible is compatible with role playing, it's that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where data keeps solving the Sherlock Holmes cases in 2 seconds to Geordi's annoyance.
255ad 5 months ago
Comment removed
philip1201 5 months ago
@255ad As I recall, he used his knowledge of the books, so then Geordi let the computer create a sentient AI which could defeat them, it tried to take over the ship and 5 years later it tried to escape again and was locked into a computer so sophisticated it wasn't distinguishable from reality.
But all nerdiness aside, objectives are eventually set by the player, not the game. As Geordi would explain to Data, it may be the "objective" of the game, but it's not the point.
Part of this is why I
philip1201 5 months ago
@255ad ... hate MMORPGs: there is occasionally potential for story but everything is secondary to the xp, gp and quest objectives.
philip1201 5 months ago
To Mass Effect's credit, the Paragon/Renegade scale isn't so much of a good/evil scale as it is a idealist/pragmatist scale. Remember, Shepard comes across as the hero either way. Paragon Shepard usually goes for the kinder actions, but can also be naive (see: the genophage debate with Mordin, the fate of the Rachni). Renegade Shepard can be a jerk at times, but also takes fewer risks with his/her trust. And since the scales are independent, you can mix it up in the way that best suits you.
strongrudder 7 months ago
Granted, the gameplay still doesn't support this as well as it could. When the difference between some Paragon and the Renegade dialog choices is how grumpily you agree, why bother presenting them as choices? :P Still - it's better than a black and white sliding scale.
strongrudder 7 months ago 16
@strongrudder In ME1 especially though, renegade shepard is mostly an angry jerk. Shep: "No I don't want no aliens on my ship" And: "But Shepard, you need a good crew." Udi: "Yes, here have this Turian, Quarian, Krogan and Asari." S: "But i don't wanna" U:"Shut up."
philip1201 5 months ago
I was completely surprised when Socom 4 had a moral choice at the end of it. Had no clear good or evil, just do you follow orders and capture the war criminal to face trial, or do you kill hm to ensure he doesn't get away with it.
Sncommand 7 months ago
Fallout New Vegas has the faction reputation system that you mentioned! However this was originally implemented in the original Fallout back in 1996! Plus you didn't see how much you r actions affected those factions. You may be loved in one town but were villified in another!
Fable III also had difficult moral chioces but this was when you were the king & were the only decent moral aspects of the game. Do I kepp the money to pay for the war or open up that school I promised?
TheHoffman87 7 months ago
Heavy Rain did everything that you said as far as I'm aware. If only it was released when you made this :(
kingdomhfanatic 7 months ago
@kingdomhfanatic It was released in February 2010, this video was made in April 2010!
TheSergenBaldwin 6 months ago
Join the Dark Side, we have cookies : )
thecheeseycheese 8 months ago
I was surprised that you didn't mention The Witcher as the example of the well done moral system. The whole story of the game revolves between the good of the many (the humans) and the rights of few (elves and dwarves), and you're assume the role of outcast (Geralt) who has the power to repress the rebellion, lead it to the victory or just pursue his own coals and ignore the rest. PS: I like the show on Escapist and I was positively surprised when I found these "Pilot" episodes for ExtraCredits.
vilinder 8 months ago
@vilinder this was before the Witcher 2 came out.
horeslayer 8 months ago
This is an unrelated note, but I felt like whenever you chose the paragon choice in Mass Effect 1 and 2, people would just give in to your logic. That almost NEVER happens in real life. BIoware ignores that intelligent life will always rationalize choices they have previously made, just to give you some fucking karma points.
horeslayer 8 months ago
@horeslayer That's because you got the blue paragon options. Usually the white paragon options fail to convince them, and the white renegade options fail to "convince" them. If you didn't put points into charm (ME1) or chose a more middle-of-the-road path to play (ME2), you might have too little charm to convince them.
The problem with this is that people are simply forced to choose between extremes. Adding more dimensions and only allowing certain areas of the field to persuade would make this
philip1201 5 months ago
@philip1201 It didn't matter, the blue or "convincing" paragon answers got them to give in, whereas if I had provided an answer similar to that in real life, the person would probably either still try to argue or go ad hominid on my ass to try and steer the argument another way.
horeslayer 5 months ago
@horeslayer ... a lot more interesting. (for example, an anarchist will only be convinced if [charm] - 0.6 [lawfulness] > 80)
philip1201 5 months ago
@philip1201 I thought that Fallout and the Witcher did a better job, you definitely needed a fuck load of exp before you talk anyone into doing what you wanted in Fallout, and the morality was much, much more ambiguous.
horeslayer 5 months ago
Indeed.
Dem0n5 8 months ago
Your really smart those are awesome ideas I think oblivion is a good example too
Troyjak1997 8 months ago
Cont. The decision is based on valid reasoning. Kill him, the kingslayers who had killed Foltest and now an entire kingdom, is left unchecked by it's ruler. Anarchy may ensue, the northern kingdoms will be in more disarray. Let him live, and you let a murderer who has forcibly sodomized and hung prisoners regardless of their race to gain fear from his subjects. THIS is the moral dilemma and high stakes question that is absolutely satisfying to come across because it's a balance of grey areas.
Gjkl345 8 months ago
Also in The Witcher 2 *spoilers* you get one scene where you have finally reached King Henselt's lair with Roche in tow. Finally he reveals that it was all a part of his plan or atleast, that he has now all the power he needs. He even mocks Roche by calling Ves, Roche's long time companion and second in command a "whore" of sorts when he brutally raped her. You have to choose between letting Roche kill him or letting the king live.
Gjkl345 8 months ago
Cont. In the Witcher, you basically had to sacrifice your own neutrality, a thing Geralt heavily holds sacred to himself, to save the witch who is being blamed for the problems of the many or side with either the nonhuman rebellion to take back their homelands and stop the humans from forcing them into the ghettos reenacting early moments in Germany before the Holocaust. Or you could protect the humans because the nonhumans are just as bloody as the zealots you work for and its your job to.
Gjkl345 8 months ago
Agreed with the top comment, seriously has no one played The Witcher? This should've been your top example of a game that has reached the epitome of ambiguous storytelling without condemning or praising the actions of the hero to some linear bar ranging from good or evil. Sure Zero Punctuation offed it as well as many other reviewers, say what you will about the gameplay, but the story design is phenomenal and rivals that of Tolkien or Neil Gaiman or other writers using mythology.
Gjkl345 8 months ago
infamous 2 has done a goo job of making you choose between good and evil, the good pathways are always harder than the evil ones, for instance at one point you can load a tram full of explosive and ram it though a gate to kill some enimies, or you can go free some captured cops, who r under gaurd from a shit load of enemies
MRherpaderp1 8 months ago
who was moraly upright...but then the last tactics...its hard to even care for the character never mind, judge it with such linear story telling....And in mmorpg I dont get it it would really profit if the games are actually that engaging with the player, that it would do some good eventually!, well I guess not money wise, but what you were talking about is what makes me fantasize about being a game devoloper...not stuning graphics..yes looks is important but story and morality of the game...man
nevashiva 8 months ago
APPLAUSE I really like how you worded this problem, and games should be like that YES YES YES on what you are saying! Games can be such an indearing moral experience, I meant I remember final fantasy for example and how it is progressing game devolpment wise, ever since it became square enix and money mongering basicly, the moral plethora of the characters it used to have started going down hill...for example ff tactics series, man the first tactics was amazing story line and very hard to judge
nevashiva 8 months ago
this is why world of warcraft is a good game. you get the choice of choosing if you want to fight the horde or alliance depeands what side you are and what professions you will like to study
D100J 8 months ago
I know about the Fallout moral choices good: give water to homeless people, save and be friendly to people who are complete douchebags, don't blow a settlement for a snotty old guy and neutral speaks for it's self
DalekJamie12 8 months ago
I know about the Fallout moral choices I don't think many underaged players GOT THE MESSAGE: don't take stuff that isn't yours, don't talk to people wrong ,DON'T RANDOMLY KILL SOMEONE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO
DalekJamie12 8 months ago
When I watched this video it reminded me of The Witcher. As far as I can remember it has everything you said about.
Duchu26 8 months ago 22
planescape: torment anyone? =)
dyobeats 9 months ago
This is why Fallout New Vegas is such a good game. Had a lot of hard choices.
Fallout 3 was black and white.
mccheeseburger01 9 months ago
thanks for the video. i just really wish someone would take these points into consideratyion and make a great game. everything in life is a choice and although sometimes u can guess whether what u do will have a positive or negative consequence, many times its just a matter of personal point of view on how one sees things. thats what we need to see games integrate. everything is NOT all black&white and THAT right there is the beauty of decision making. its wat makes an unforgettable experience
TylerJaden24 9 months ago
well my fav part about these kinda games is seeing the consequences of my actions/decisions. although it is satisfying to get some options to choose from and then pick something and see how npcs react to your choice, its much for satisfying to see the entire game change because of what you did or said. like the butterfly effect or ripple effect. having such drastic consequences that can completely alter ur gaming experience is what i want to see in these kinda games.
TylerJaden24 9 months ago
How about Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II? She's one of the biggest reasons why this game became one of my favorites.
What do you mean giving money to this beggar is wrong? *shows us why*
She really makes you think about your choices. I have to say that she is one of the greatest video game characters ever written.
AncientAeon 9 months ago
Iji has quite a nice 'morality' system (characters and how the interact change based on how you interact with them (not just NPCs, but also standard mooks etc). If you murder your enemies in your 'quest for peace', then no-one will take you seriously as a pacifist, whereas if you avoid killing (including basic Mooks) then people will listen to you when you try and get the fighting to stop). Pity it's a indie game and as such not many people know it...
RichardOnADragon 9 months ago
It's true. A single line of Good Vs Evil, does not do the complexity of such dilemma's justice at all. Not even close.
varnlestoff 9 months ago
Oh my goodness! The intro music is a rocked out guitar version of a Mario 64 song! :D
aseretkavon 9 months ago
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kusempinthu 9 months ago
Great Analysis of moral choices. I hope there will be games that develop a personality grid like your colour wheel, and then combine that with factions or how npc's treat you could develop a deeper and greater game. Either way great job. Maybe the shadow of collosus two will have such a thing.
bigcookie83 10 months ago
GTAIV, having to choose which McReary brother to kill...this was a great example of moral choice with no defined answer
OXXOI77777 10 months ago
Or not even in an RPG
somekindofawesome1 10 months ago
How bout this. The player picks different races and or classes if the game permits at the begining as is standard. Note this could even be done in games that aren't fully RPG because the story and concept could probably be adjusted accordingly. In the game these classes and races have different values and beliefs about morality. So any choice you make can be judged against your original choices of class and race so a choice as say an elf hunter could be considered good yet the same choice by a
somekindofawesome1 10 months ago
@somekindofawesome1 Why would the choices be predetermined from what race and class you choose? Firstly, that pretty racist (as in, attributing things to races that are not in fact linked). Secondly, you merely have separate games depending on which faction you pick and no choices to make afterwards. Thirdly, this would mean increasing game content by the sum, or perhaps even the multiple, of the choice branches you have.
philip1201 5 months ago
One game I really liked and still play whose moral engine is god was Black and White.
It's fun to play God and whatever you do to these villagers will greatly affect how they grow and such.
silverhairedelf09 10 months ago
I think my favorite example of moral choices is Civilization because everything you do is not graded "Good" or "Bad" but no label at all. Like when you expand your civilization, you might get closer to one way of winning the game but your people also get mad.
TheFridayProductions 10 months ago
Actually morality is always white or black... choosing something based on what's most beneficial is just being a selfish person. And when you come upon a choice that will always have some sort of evil in it then it's evil and there's always the choice of not choosing it and looking for a justified way of doing it or even not doing it all.
BillGates1337 10 months ago