@javi8269 Well without Gasol Kb couldnt win. Without Gasol, Kb's 2 missed shtos in game 7 of last year would not have been rebounded by Gasol & ut back in to win the NBA FINALS. Whcih basically means, without Gasol, the Lakers wouldnt have won last year. Which means Kobe wouldnt have won without Gasol's key plays & team contribution of rebounds, points and taking some of the defensive pressure off of Kobe. Gasol is no Shaq, but Gasol is a key player on the Lakers & is a big reason why they win
Throughout the history of the game, a lot of great players couldn't score at will. A guy like Shaq needed someone to inbound him the ball to get a great look, Reggie needed to have a great pick to get open. But Mike could score AT WILL, whenever he wanted to.
Actually you're right. I can't find anyone else trashing Shaq, so i guess you were my target. I also see that you put Smits ahead of Shaq, which in essence, strips your opinion of all validity. I'm sincerely sorry to have wasted any time on you. you need to man up & quit the sensitivity - I seriously didn't say anything bad about you. And, using lay words doesn't make a person uneducated - Attacking my level of education is not a battle you'll win. You're prob. exposing you're own insecurities
@thewolfmanchu that is a clownish statement from a idiot. Bird never lost to MJ in the playoffs or any big games. He swept him both times in 86 and 87. Magic's teams use to kill MJ. MJ is the best, but its close
Why are there Shaq haters commenting here? LOL. Tthe numbers don't do him justice - He arguably the most dominant low post presence of all time; IMO, he should be in everyone's top 5. I'm not a big fan but to deny his dominance in his prime is ludicrous. This dude was immovable and was a hard cover for any double team. I don't necessarily agree with the unskilled argument because he was awesome at positioning,scoring off the bump, rebounding, and deterring shots. I'd prob only put kareem ahead
First of all, quit with your sh!t about "haters". Neither myself or any of the others talking about Shaq on here are haters. That's the most overused word of the last decade and it's OFTEN used incorrectly.
Secondly, I already admitted to him dominating. No one is denying that.
What you need to do is learn the difference between afforded domination and talent/skill.
"Scoring off the bump"? That's a really cute way of referring to his bulldozing over defenders.
@bubufubu .I probably didn't read any of your posts, so I'm not sure why you're taking this personally. 1) free speech i can use any word I want; how much it is used is irrelevant. 2) just because you admitted he dominated, doesn't discount other posts-I wasn't picking you out. 3) Cute? really? no one just bulldozes - you get inside your opponent's step, move with your lower body. also, when posting, it's better have your vector through his shoulders - these are post skills not everyone has .
Odd that you probably didn't read any of my posts, yet who else could you possibly be referring to when you said "Shaq haters"...
I'm the only person on here criticizing Shaq, so again you're full of sh!t when you say you're not singling me out. That was a nice try, though. lol
Hey, feel free to use the word all you want. It will just continue to expose your lack of intelligence and comprehension. I find it sad that your schools never taught you the meaning of the word "criticism".
i am with you on that too. i think he was one of the most athletic centers ever with great body weight. but his scoring skill relies heavily on bullying his way into the paint and get the good position, his way of scoring reminds me of lebron, both are strong as steel and they run people over. to be fair, i think he did improved his scoring ability with more varieties during the 3 peat, if you look at the centers nowadays(except pau) he is still rather skillful in terms of scoring.
@PAZ0619 The true centers are back in the 90s. Last great center was Shaq. Today you have D Howard who just last year learned how to do a baby hook shot, which is his only other shot besides dunking. D Howard is a beast in athletic ability but when it comes to actual basketball skill, he is very limited. Rebounds, dunks and a hook shot. Centers nowadays are far from Hakeem the Dream. Most centers cant even shoot a 10ft jumper now. Amare can shoot but he is a true PF and so is Kevin Love.
D12 is also missing a black tornado/drop step move. Even Shaq has always been a terrible shooter, he knew how to exploit his athleticism, at least way better than Dwight.
Even in terms of athleticism, D12 is lagging behind. Shaq was suprisingly mobile for a 350lb guy with good ball handling skills for a center.
Shooting is definitely bad for sure :) so is screen and roll defense since 2003(with the exception of 2006 ECF). Movement w/o the ball is not exactly applicable bc he played in the post, mostly moving from weakside, and securing good position with his strength.
His shooting his horrible. The man has a maximum radius of 8ft from the hoop. Good luck getting him to work on that, though. Same goes for his free-throws. He went through at least 3 different coaches who all confirmed how stubborn and lazy he is.
If Shaq had stayed in the same shape he was in his first few years with Orlando, then his screen and roll defense would have been fine. As it was, he typically got embarrassed because of his extra weight and injuries moving without the ball.
true horace made the all star team the year after Jordan retired and Rodman should have been an all star, both very good players. underrated, Grant more so
As usual.... Wizard uploads are always my favorites. Because it shows that he could do it against today's pseudo more advanced modern day defense aka 'Zone', and that he could do it against today superior athletes, even tho he was years past his playing and physical prime.
Also, he was doing this against taller defenders (Gooden) and against one of the best defenders of this entire generation (Battier).
@andgar923 Yeah, Jordan just retired in 2003 and to hear people saying that players are stronger and more advanced now is pretty ridiculous, really. I don't think humans have evolved in seven years. The rules changes that have been made favor scorers.
"Jordan just retired in 2003 and to hear people saying that players are stronger and more advanced now is pretty ridiculous"
Exactly..
Comment's like that are nothing but the delusions of grandeur of these dumb kids who are looking for a way to explain away the OBVIOUS superiority of MJ in regards to their favorite player when they're compared to him.
It's nothing more than juvenile, ignorant-arrogance to save face..
Shaq the "best" big men of his era?! Jesus christ.
I hope you're referring solely to the fact that he was the most dominating. And even that unfortunate truth deserves no respect as he has been afforded more biased treatment from the officials than any other player in the last 20 years.
Players like Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Smits, and Duncan were INSANELY more talented than O'Neal. Period.
"Legit" is not a word that should ever be used to describe O'Neal's career.
@bubufubu Well Shaq's era basically outlasted all those great centers. He was pretty much peaking as the last crop of truly great centers was dying out. However, what other big man has had the combination of size, speed, and athleticism that Shaq did? His career was totally legit, and that's not up for debate. Biased treatment from refs? They flagrant him because his fouls look like he put a bulldozer on the defender, and he can't even shoot free throws to save his life. I don't see it, buddy.
The majority of talent that O'Neal DID display was during his first few years with the Magic. By the time he got to LA, his game predominantly became bulldozing (offensive fouling) his way to the hoop. It was pretty obvious why he bulked up.
Athleticism? Ha! Not with the Lakers, Heat, Suns, or Cavs. The fact that you're trying to credit him with size is laughable. That's not a talent. His bullying tactics were on display FAR more often than his speed with his spin move in the paint.
Shaq had hardly any competition at the Center position when he began to receive individual accolades. Quite the coincidence there. And yet, he still wasn't anywhere near as talented as Duncan.
Had he been officiated fairly, the man would have fouled out in the first half of every game he played. But O'Neal dunking on everybody is good for business. And that's all O'Neal's career is, a business move.
You are also ignoring that refs allowed defenders to basically beat up Shaq. A lot of the fouls that Shaq had to endure were hard or even flagrant fouls in today's standards. So the refs were basically letting him play.
Moreover, criticizing Shaq's bulldozering people when he was hacked along way is like accusing AI's quickness while carrying the ball from time to time.
Moreover, to say that Shaq was lacking in skills were a bit unfair. He was a decent ball handler, had a decent jumphook....
If his defenders were allowed to "beat him up", then Shaq essentially got away with murder by comparison.
You should look up the rule for "charging" and then try to argue that Shaquille O'Neal wasn't allowed to break that rule on a very consistent basis. That would be a laugh riot.
We're talking about Shaq, not Iverson. One thing has nothing to do with the other. I've already admitted that it's a business. I'm aware of TONS of players getting superstar treatment for decades.
Exactly! Thats the point that I am trying to lead you to. Every superstar has a modus operandi of their own, and some of them are NBA business moves (AI's occasional AND ONE carrying is entertaining to many, even me, and defensive rule changes since 2000s enhanced this practice further).
could run the floor well in his prime, and could make a pass to break the double team.
I think you believe that it is easy to play with a 300lb frame. It is not necessary true. Oliver Miller, Diop, and even Kwame Brown were over or near 300lbs. They are all strong, but none are as strong as or as mobile as Shaq.
Shaq also had ENORMOUS hands. Should I over credit a 7ft guy with huge hands being double and triple teamed and hitting the wide open shooter for a three? Gimme a break.
Strength is NOT a talent or a skill.
And when exactly do you think Shaq's prime was anyway? Would that be when he was about 50lbs overweight and constantly getting injured from '97 onward? Would it be the years when he had hardly any competition at the Center spot?
A 7ft tall player with giant hands (facing double and triple teams) passing the ball to WIDE open shooters must have been REALLY tough for him.
Lets just call him the greatest passing Center of all time while we're at it. The man's career is built upon undeserved hype. Lest you forget that he was named to the Top 50 All Time after 4 and a half years of accomplishing next to nothing.
So go ahead, keep bestowing ridiculous praise upon him. He's used to it.
@bubufubu Yeah but Shaq almost became the first unanimous MVP in 2000 I think...AI got one vote...but still u r right about many things concerning Shaq...but still he's one of the best I've ever seen...But still I think I'd take Olajuwon, Ewing and Duncan over him
@loepower I am a Knicks fan baby! Anyway u shouldn't forget that Shaq got ALL of his championships AFTER MJs prime...And also Ewing never had an Anfernee Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, D Wade and LBJ caliber teammates...I mean he had Starks, Spree and Houston but I don't think these guys are good like the guys Shaq played with...
@bubufubu oh i remember you ! You're that guy who said Walton, JacK sickma and Brad Daughtery were better centers than Shaq!LOL. Man you are such a hater. Why should a 7'2" 300lbs + guy play any different than he did. Stop the nonsense.
I'm not the one spouting nonsense. That would be ignorant "fans" such as yourself.
In terms of skill and talent, you're damn right those other players showed more skill in one basketball game than O'Neal did in his entire career.
Blah blah blah, "hater hater hater". The most overused word of the last decade. Congrats on following sheep whose opinions are made for them by ESPN and stat-whores.
How about using footwork and ball handling skills to get around your defender rather than bulldozing them?
Centers like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Wilt Chamberlain all had offensive weapons that didn't include offensive fouling their way to the hoop. And guess what, none of those guys is exactly "small" either.
Poor excuses from a person who doesn't know the difference between skill/talent and afforded domination.
@bubufubu 30pts 14rebs 4assists and 3 blocks. Those were shaqs numbers in 2000 now don't say tim duncan(23pts 12rebs 3assists and 2 blocks) who was better than Shaq then
Even if Kobe wins # 6 next year, he'll always have had a dominant big man to take the load off of him. Jordan didn't. In fact, I thought Gasol should have been Finals MVP last season.
@killerecho Using the defence card is weak, and what impact are you referring to?
In 3 straight road games, Pau averaged 14 and 8 on 43 pct shooting. As a big man, you can't win a finals MVP with those kinds of numbers. Kobe averaged 33.5 points and 6 rebounds in those games and was the chief architect of wins in game 1 and 6.
@nikosvault Defense is the reason any NBA team ever wins the championship, so your "defence card is weak" statement is a little peculiar. Gasol was their defensive anchor that entire series, and he not only outplayed the entire Celtics front line (KG, Rasheed, Perkins, Davis, not exactly chumps), but disrupted their perimeter players on the weakside whenever they ventured into the paint. Ray had chipper shots blocked, Rondo missed gimme layups, Pierce had to get around Artest AND him.
@nikosvault Btw, Bynum had one good game in the series and Odom scavenged on opportunity because the Celtics big men were so busy with Gasol.
Even on offense, Pau shot 44% (16/36) on the road to Kobe's had 42% on 33/78 and 12 TOs). And LA lost two of those games, as they tend to do whenever Kobe jacks up too many shots. Fact is, Gasol was a much more efficient scorer, with a much higher Ortg than anyone on the team playing major minutes.
@killerecho Wonderful. You are doing the old "fg% of guards vs. big men" thing.
And pointing out the benefit of Celtics defence being "busy" with other players is quite ironic.
Let see, did the "defensive anchor" stop stop KG in Game 3? or Big Baby in Game 4? No, he got utterly destroyed.
And I guess Chansey Billups, Paul Pierce and Tony Parker should all return their finals MVP’s as well, because it all about the defence of the big men, right?
@nikosvault Right, cuz Tony and Ray Allen would've totally stymied Gasol had they not been preoccupied with Kobe.
Davis had 18 and 5 in game 4, hardly dominating, BTW he avged 6.5 and 5.6 for the series. And as long as we're on the subject of defensive lapses, let's not forget how RayRay torched Kobe for 32 in game 2
Collectively, Celtics big men did a lot less damage than their back court in the series. 49.3 vs. 33.1 ppg, respectively. And LA had another defensive stopper in Ron.
@killerecho Davis was dominant. Those 18 points came almost exclusively in the 4th. And what about KG’s 24 points on 68 % shooting in game 3 (something you smoothly avoided addressing).
And yes, Kobe did get torched by Ray in game 2, but I thought Pau distinguished himself BECAUSE of his defence.
And if you don't think Pau benefits from Kobe's presence, then our discussion is truly over.
@nikosvault Davis scored exactly half of those 18 in the fourth. Garnett had one good game in a series where he avged 13 and 5.6rpg. Did you know Pau had more blks & nearly as many offensive rbs as KG, Davis Perkins and Wallace COMBINED?
I never stated Pau did not benefit from Kobe's presence (and would never do so), but to suggest that he benefited more than Kobe did from him in that SERIES is nonsensical. Frankly, if he hadn't been the difference maker, we would've seen a repeat of 2008.
Davis had 7 points with 1m. to go in the third, but whatever. Pau was nowhere to be found when the going got tough on the road, had some excellent games in two blowouts wins at home (game 1+6), and benefited greatly from the absence of Perkins in game 7 (while still shooting poorly and missing 7 of 11 free throws).
Furthermore, I did not say that Pau benefited more than usual in this series, but he did benefit. And just because he was an absolute no-show in 2008, doesn’t make him finals MVP when he sporadically shows up in 2010.
@nikosvault "Sporadically shows up?" Like when he bailed out Kobe's 6-24 stinker in game 7, when the going got tough AT HOME???
And FYI, Pau avged 14.7 and 10.2 in 2008, not exactly a noshow; the difference was in 2010 was his improved defense and toughness (compare the numbers for the Celtics bigs in 2008 vs 2010), but there I go again playing the weak card=)
@killerecho Pau did not "bailed out" Kobe, Ron Artest did. In the first half, Pau was just as dismal as Kobe, and his free throw shooting throughout the game was awful. To his credit, he did grab a lot of rebounds, but so did Kobe.
@nikosvault Pau missed 6 fts out of 13 (not 7 of 11 as you claimed) that game, incidentally Kobe also missed 6 fts that game. Artest was definitely huge for them, but so was Gasol. He got momentum-shifting rebounds and putbacks/3pt plays in the 4th quarter while fouling out Sheed, almost fouling out KG and helping shut down the Celts offense in the last 6 minutes of the game.
@killerecho Fisher was huge as well, and Odom. So in fact the whole team bailed out Kobe. It was not some earth shattering solo performance by Gasol (playing against a Boston frontline without Perkins and barely taking advantage).
And this quarter is the all important, indisputable evidence, that’s Pau was the MVP? erasing Kobe's 28.5pts, 8 reb and 4 ast. per game average in the series.
@nikosvault Odom was not "HUGE". Fisher had 2 key buckets late.The bench did zilch. The "whole team" was PG and Ron. He did better than Kobe in that game that was the point. You said earth shattering, I didn't. But how is it not important? You don't think late 4th qtr, game 7 in the freakin' FINALS is a big deal?
But that's not my only case for this argument, please check again.
And bringing up Perkins' absence is like saying Kobe lucked out cuz Celts didn't have James Posey anymore.
@killerecho The "whole team" was PG and Ron? Nope, that’s just not true. Sorry. End of story. Pau and Ron only had 21 of the Lakers 49 points in the second half.
And clutch performances by a second option in crucial finals games. Hmmmm, what does that remind me of? Let me think back.
@BlackFrost1728 Nowhere, as far as I can tell. These half glass empty and half glass full arguments tilted against Bryant make any honest discussion difficult.
@nikosvault You kinda have to go both ways when you don't have clear line of evidence in any direction. And where did you derive my "admission" from?
I've clearly cited a lot more facts and figures than you have so if you want me to try harder you'll have to bring something to the table as well. If not, I'll take my "weak arguments" elsewhere and leave you to your idolatry.
The joke that Kobe was a second option this summer? Or did I misunderstand your joke.
And what clear line of evidence/facts have you presented? Your vague suggestion that Pau orchestrated everything that slowed down the Celtics offence? That he was a one man show in game 7 and should be awarded for that performance alone. Or how about your suggestion that no Perkins and another big body in Bynum did nothing to help Gasol from avoiding another 08 meltdown.
@nikosvault You can't take that joke without the corollary that he's also the 2nd option. Orchestrated everything? Masterpiece? Earth-shattering? You keep substituting my points with your own hyperbole. If you keep doing that we can't have an honest discussion. I believe my exact words were that he anchored the defense and I backed that up with actual numbers in the Celts production. I'm not repeating them; they're all there. The suggestion that I was vague is disingenuous.
@killerecho 1/2 I however, documented that he didn’t show up on the road, was dominated twice in the series (at crucial times) and only played well sporadically in his game 7 “masterpiece”.
@nikosvault Here's a few more points for vagueness sake: Kobe had only 1 more assist in that series than Pau, but had had a 1.0 Assist-TO ratio to Gasol's 2.0 Kobe did not have to play the kind of defense PG did. He had Artest on Pierce and, Game 2 notwithstanding, had Fisher chase Ray. He had Rondo and Tony Allen, neither of whom could shoot out of a paper bag. Still Rondo "dominated" leading his team in rbs and asts. Did I mention no Celtic big had over 5.6 rpg that series?
Do you know that I am in my 20's, grew up watching MJ and consider him by far the greatest player of all time? That I currently only have Kobe at number 7 on the all time greatest list (and behind Magic Johnson as the greatest Laker).
It's actually easy to defend Jordan’s superior legacy in this discussion, without taking away the achievements of Kobe Bryant. You should try it.
@nikosvault I guess I hit a nerve. But I might have thought differently if you actually had any vids of another player on your channel page. You and I actually have that much in common. I don't hate Kobe, I just call it as I see it. Jordan's legacy will never need MY intervention to hold up against that of Kobe or anyone else. My original statement about Jordan never having a dominant big man is simply a fact. BTW respect for not letting this descend into flaming contest.
@nikosvault No, not excluded. But c'mon dude you have like 150 videos of pure unabashed Kobeiness. No Magic or anyone else in your top 7. What am I supposed to think? As well, it would unreasonable to assume that hoops, however informed, wouldn't be a tad bit of biased in any discussion of MJ.
And yes, the numbers you present are vague and selective. The Celtics have an army of bigs. Some of them did not have big numbers. Doesn’t chance that Pau disappeared on the road and was dominated in two crucial games. No hyperbole there.
@nikosvault Of course they're selective (which of yours isn't?). But don't call them vague just cuz you find them inconvenient. The series wasn't decided on those 2 games, they're no more "crucial" than any other so that's a throwaway tag. Fact is PG dominated their army of bigs in the series overall. And saying he disappeared is absolutely hyperbole.
@killerecho What were you suppose to think. How about a laker fan with a subscription to a Jordan only channel? And If I want Showtime era videos, I can visit nonplayerzealot4's channel.
And let me get this straight. To say that Pau dominated the Celtics bigs, isn’t a hyperbole, but pointing out his play in three straight road games and his "crucial" lack of defence on Davis and KG is?
And the assist comparison between Kobe and Pau. How about the rebounds and points comparison.
@nikosvault It isn't. I already gave you the figures of why this is.
It's not an assist comparison, it's the Assist to Turnover ratio, which is an indicator of how efficiently and effectively the offense is run. Rebounding? PG outrebounded KG and KP combined. Kobe barely outrebounded Rondo. Kobe has the high score, but his scoring has not been a reliable indicator of team success.
@killerecho 1/2 Right, because points came by so easy in this series.
Anyway, I was not asking you about the Celtics rebounding compared to Pau (too many big men sharing those stats on the Celtics) or Kobe and Pau’s turnover ratio (more important than showing up on the road?). Kobe was excellent on the board and provided the only reliable scoring option throughout the series.
@nikosvault No they certainly were not easy to come by and Kobe's FG% is testament to that. Those stats I brought up are for the entire 7 game series, road included, so yes they are more important than your 3-game case study.
And why are you not addressing MY points? Do YOU think Pau played MVP basketball on the road? Was he not pounded into submission by KG and Davis in game 3 and 4 (and being virtually invisible in game 5)? Talk about that please, instead of these ESPN type combinations of stats and ratios.
@nikosvault No, why bother? Anything I bring up will just be dismissed as any form of code-speak for "I don't like it so it has no merit." And really? I've been called some pretty nasty things but ESPN?? I will see you outside sir.
@killerecho lol, well to be fair, I do like Bill Simmons (ironically).
Anyway, if you don’t think a three game slump, in a seven games series, is more important than overall assists and turnover numbers, then I guess our discussion has come to an end.
@nikosvault Nope, not really. He "stepped up" because he had to fill a vacuum left by someone who shall remain nameless. He actually had similar or better numbers in other games with Perkins defending. Wallace was in many ways a better matchup against him. Perkins was 6-9 on a good day, had terrible hands and no scoring ability.
@nikosvault And yes, I personally thought Ben Wallace in 04 and KG in 08 were more valuable to their team in the finals. No comment on Tony Parker as I barely watched the 07 series.
@nikosvault And did I mention that he was HUGE in game 7 during that 4th quarter run after Kobe spent the first 3 shooting them out of the game (6 for 24)?
Kobe only had 1 great qtr the entire finals (Game 5), other than that he STUNK! He was a COMBINED 11-36 (30%) in ALL of the 4 qtrs & was 6-24 in Game 7!!
Gasol utterly outplayed him & was the REAL Finals MVP..
Kobe avg'd 28ppg on 24 shots in that series..that's HORRIBLE LOL!!
Gasol avg'd 19ppg 4apg 11reb 4bpg on 48.2 FG%, no to mention he blocked 18 shots & got 35 offensive rebs in that series. That means from his offensive rebs ALONE, he got 23 MORE possessions for L.A. than kobe did..
@blackadam06 I don't think you respect how hard the game is, especially after scoring 30+ for 11 of 16 games like Kobe did last playoffs. he's the only player in NBA history to score 500+ for three straight years playoffs. He's already passed Larry Bird all time in playoff points and is the Lakers all time leading scorer in Regular season and playoffs. Against the magic in the finals, he was the first since Jerry West to avg 30/6/5 or something...not saying he's MJ but you gotta respect greats
"I don't think you respect [how hard] the game is"
Oh really?
"Our rules are [designed] to [allow] players to [penetrate] for [high percentage] shots. This has [allowed] for more high quality [perimeter] shots as well, because of how much [easier] it is to penetrate today."
-- Stu Jackson, VP of NBA Basketball Operations; "Stu Jackson Presents", NBA . com May 3, 2007
So is the VP of NBA basketball "unappreciative" of the alleged difficulties of the game as well?
"he's the only player in NBA history to score 500+ for three straight years playoffs"
And you're FAILING to realize that is was LARGELY made possible because the 1st Rd of the playoffs in MJ's era was a best of 5 series, in this era it's been CHANGED to a best of 7. That means there's MORE games & opportunities for kobe to score!
That's HUGE ADVANTAGE for him!
MJ is 1 of 3 guys to score 700+ pts in post season play. Now imagine what he could've done under these rules!
@blackadam06 OK u check the stats of pippen and jordan in terms of field goal and shot percentage and stats pippen is way better in terms of efficiency
Since 1993, 32.3ppg has only been surpassed TWICE in a season. 51.6% shooting on AT LEAST 20 FG attempts has only been done 5 times by just 2 people, and both were centers (GOAT centers at that), but NO ONE'S done BOTH in 1 season in the last 27 years.
MJ did it for 8 straight seasons!!
Now when U can SHOW ME that kinda consistent efficiency (with scoring) from Pippen, then talk to me!
@blackadam06 Don't even worry about these moronic kids...It's pointless, seriously...100& of people over 26 know who the GOAT is...You'll just frustrate yourself w/ the flash praising/individual oriented new NBA fans...And even looking at it from that perspective, MJ is the GOAT.
I generally don't trip, but sometimes these stupid ass kids NEED to be called out on their disrespect, and arrogant-ignorance.
They just never expect for someone to do it, much less confront them with facts that that KNOW they can't refute, so that's the reason they fly into these temper tantrums & hurl a bunch of expletives, or my favorite, scream: "you're a hater!", when it was them who just tried to discredit someone that they knew absolutely NOTHING about LOL!!
Pippen only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he shot at least 50% from the field. MJ has 8 seasons like that!
MJ (as a guard), ranks #1 All Time in Player Efficiency Rating (PER), which is unheard of considering that the Bigs consistently have the best PER seasons. MJ has 4 of the All Time Top 7 PER seasons, but your ignorant ass is trying to tell me that Pippen from an efficiency standpoint, was better than him?
@blackadam06 Exactly! All these kobe fans are blind to seeing the facts that Kb isnt as good as MJ. Sure he may be the best in the NBA today, but thats nowhere near the basketball GOAT. Derek Fisher had to put the team on his back during one of the games in the FINALS last year when Kb couldnt do anything. And the last game, Kb missed 2 clutch shots & Gasol gets the rebounds to put them back in. Yet Kobe gets most of the credit?!! Ridiculous!
@blackadam06 But you forget to mention how many points kobe had in the 4th quarter in game 7. Real winners are never afraid of the moment. They have short term memories, and what happened in the quarters preceding the 4th does not matter to them. Do you want him to stop shooting in the 4th quarter so his stats dont look bad? he's not lebron. Wrap it up
@blackadam06 way to ignore everything that i just said. Go watch the 4th quarter instead of getting hard off a box score like you are right now, look at the final score, go search a kobe 2010 finals celebration video, and then enjoy. Talk all you want about kobe fanatics, but I think you haters put in more effort.
Those box scores that U silly ass kobe fan-boys try SO HARD to ignore & deem irrelevant, are the damn RESULTS of what happened in the 4th qtr, as well as the other ones!
U keep talkin' about his 2010 finals, but REFUSE to acknowledge what he actually did. This is what U damn kobe homers do best...deny..deny..deny..deny...SMH
When U run into facts U can't get around, U IMMEDIATELY go into denial mode!
michael wearing his cool grey 11's :-)
bonzie1645 1 week ago
Thats bad defense
CrossoverInYaFace 2 months ago
Cool :) where can I see the full game?
jantjecool 4 months ago
i wish there was a stfu button so everyone can just shutup and watch
kjcharlesHD 6 months ago
It appears MJ is taking every single shot for the Wizards, here. That's amazing!
G61580 7 months ago
4:08 haha look how jordan has ta drag kwame off tha court :D
eelsinmypants 8 months ago
just realized drew gooden looks a lot like DRAKE
oDDmahnsta 8 months ago
@blackadam06
What do you have to say about Gasol in this years series? LOLOL!
MusicIsMyLife541 8 months ago
@MusicIsMyLife541
The obvious: that his #s were down..
blackadam06 8 months ago
@MusicIsMyLife541 When Pau Gasol, the real MVP, struggles, the Lakers get swept.
LOLOL!
bio2020 6 months ago
in the title it says 2003 but in the video it says 2002......?
ChillyCloth 8 months ago
mj thee greatest
kuriaki71 8 months ago
imagine than jordan had selected gasol instead of brown ... ring?
Cruiman24 8 months ago
@Cruiman24
lol, and kobe fans would have another subject for more comparisons
ChillyCloth 8 months ago
lol its funny how the grizzlies are now not a bad team anymore
LakersFan188 8 months ago
Look at this game He Dominate among fresh legs damn...JORDAN IS GOAT
sinipete 9 months ago
hes rocking the cool greys
hotmotion1 9 months ago
Drew Gooden really has been everywhere
canesfan52002 10 months ago
4:04 Kwame: "ILL F*CK YOU UP FAGGOT!"
GOAT: "Alright alright come on rookie."
JuhggerNuts 10 months ago
How can you compare Gasol wit' Shaq??? Maaaan Gasoft sucks
javi8269 11 months ago
@javi8269 Well without Gasol Kb couldnt win. Without Gasol, Kb's 2 missed shtos in game 7 of last year would not have been rebounded by Gasol & ut back in to win the NBA FINALS. Whcih basically means, without Gasol, the Lakers wouldnt have won last year. Which means Kobe wouldnt have won without Gasol's key plays & team contribution of rebounds, points and taking some of the defensive pressure off of Kobe. Gasol is no Shaq, but Gasol is a key player on the Lakers & is a big reason why they win
Shermstyle23 10 months ago
Thank goodness for blackadam06. It gets tiring schooling em dumbasses cuz there are so many.
uberathlete 11 months ago
On top of everything else, dare I say MJ is the greatest mid-range shooter of all time? I think so.
gbinct 1 year ago
It's like he's at shooting practise.
SrustinLim 1 year ago
what a soft touch. incredible.
Pravoizavlijesvijeta 1 year ago
putting drew gooden on mj is a joke
jobet207 1 year ago
Throughout the history of the game, a lot of great players couldn't score at will. A guy like Shaq needed someone to inbound him the ball to get a great look, Reggie needed to have a great pick to get open. But Mike could score AT WILL, whenever he wanted to.
ShaolinSurfer777 1 year ago
GOAT
TomCollins006 1 year ago
Cool Greys... thats my nigga!!!
Tattooz79 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
/watch?v=wBNrxinM_WQ
Check out the real action. :)
wuksad 1 year ago
MJ23 is the best all Time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DIRO1971 1 year ago 4
Loved the description =).
bernardosgtg 1 year ago
i like the fact he just snatched brown up and pulled him away from the ref
mariok64 1 year ago
Great upload as always Hoops.
Mj2uk2001 1 year ago
Actually you're right. I can't find anyone else trashing Shaq, so i guess you were my target. I also see that you put Smits ahead of Shaq, which in essence, strips your opinion of all validity. I'm sincerely sorry to have wasted any time on you. you need to man up & quit the sensitivity - I seriously didn't say anything bad about you. And, using lay words doesn't make a person uneducated - Attacking my level of education is not a battle you'll win. You're prob. exposing you're own insecurities
TheBluv12 1 year ago
MJ is THE LEGEND everybody else are just good players that are not even close whoooo
LION0410 1 year ago
@LION0410 Bird and Magic are close to Michael, but even they don't compare.
thewolfmanchu 1 year ago
@thewolfmanchu that is a clownish statement from a idiot. Bird never lost to MJ in the playoffs or any big games. He swept him both times in 86 and 87. Magic's teams use to kill MJ. MJ is the best, but its close
redskins2k 1 year ago
@redskins2k you just said he's the best, so how am I a clown? I have Bird and Magic as 2 and 3 all time anyways you moron.
thewolfmanchu 1 year ago
"I can score whenever I want"
michaelpostal 1 year ago
MJ will always be the best.
Mrnabeeh15 1 year ago
volume is a bit low
atammarco 1 year ago
Why are there Shaq haters commenting here? LOL. Tthe numbers don't do him justice - He arguably the most dominant low post presence of all time; IMO, he should be in everyone's top 5. I'm not a big fan but to deny his dominance in his prime is ludicrous. This dude was immovable and was a hard cover for any double team. I don't necessarily agree with the unskilled argument because he was awesome at positioning,scoring off the bump, rebounding, and deterring shots. I'd prob only put kareem ahead
TheBluv12 1 year ago
First of all, quit with your sh!t about "haters". Neither myself or any of the others talking about Shaq on here are haters. That's the most overused word of the last decade and it's OFTEN used incorrectly.
Secondly, I already admitted to him dominating. No one is denying that.
What you need to do is learn the difference between afforded domination and talent/skill.
"Scoring off the bump"? That's a really cute way of referring to his bulldozing over defenders.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu .I probably didn't read any of your posts, so I'm not sure why you're taking this personally. 1) free speech i can use any word I want; how much it is used is irrelevant. 2) just because you admitted he dominated, doesn't discount other posts-I wasn't picking you out. 3) Cute? really? no one just bulldozes - you get inside your opponent's step, move with your lower body. also, when posting, it's better have your vector through his shoulders - these are post skills not everyone has .
TheBluv12 1 year ago
Odd that you probably didn't read any of my posts, yet who else could you possibly be referring to when you said "Shaq haters"...
I'm the only person on here criticizing Shaq, so again you're full of sh!t when you say you're not singling me out. That was a nice try, though. lol
Hey, feel free to use the word all you want. It will just continue to expose your lack of intelligence and comprehension. I find it sad that your schools never taught you the meaning of the word "criticism".
bubufubu 1 year ago
You really need to look up "offensive foul; charging" in the rulebook.
I can't guarantee that will help you, as you're likely of the ESPN fandom ilk. Perhaps a great amount of video tutelage would be needed in your case.
Attempting to put your shoulder through the defender's chest is neither a skill nor is it legal in the NBA.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu
i am with you on that too. i think he was one of the most athletic centers ever with great body weight. but his scoring skill relies heavily on bullying his way into the paint and get the good position, his way of scoring reminds me of lebron, both are strong as steel and they run people over. to be fair, i think he did improved his scoring ability with more varieties during the 3 peat, if you look at the centers nowadays(except pau) he is still rather skillful in terms of scoring.
popeyeisgood 1 year ago
I am surprised no one complained about LBJ bulldozering against the defense.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Where are the true centers (cept Gasol)?
PAZ0619 1 year ago
@PAZ0619 The true centers are back in the 90s. Last great center was Shaq. Today you have D Howard who just last year learned how to do a baby hook shot, which is his only other shot besides dunking. D Howard is a beast in athletic ability but when it comes to actual basketball skill, he is very limited. Rebounds, dunks and a hook shot. Centers nowadays are far from Hakeem the Dream. Most centers cant even shoot a 10ft jumper now. Amare can shoot but he is a true PF and so is Kevin Love.
Shermstyle23 1 year ago
D12 is also missing a black tornado/drop step move. Even Shaq has always been a terrible shooter, he knew how to exploit his athleticism, at least way better than Dwight.
Even in terms of athleticism, D12 is lagging behind. Shaq was suprisingly mobile for a 350lb guy with good ball handling skills for a center.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Shooting is definitely bad for sure :) so is screen and roll defense since 2003(with the exception of 2006 ECF). Movement w/o the ball is not exactly applicable bc he played in the post, mostly moving from weakside, and securing good position with his strength.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
His shooting his horrible. The man has a maximum radius of 8ft from the hoop. Good luck getting him to work on that, though. Same goes for his free-throws. He went through at least 3 different coaches who all confirmed how stubborn and lazy he is.
If Shaq had stayed in the same shape he was in his first few years with Orlando, then his screen and roll defense would have been fine. As it was, he typically got embarrassed because of his extra weight and injuries moving without the ball.
bubufubu 1 year ago
true horace made the all star team the year after Jordan retired and Rodman should have been an all star, both very good players. underrated, Grant more so
idakinlikes 1 year ago
@TheInsaneBadass Shaq is a shoe-in for the HOF.
killerecho 1 year ago
Thanks for posting.
wizardhype 1 year ago
4:22 Jordan is playing with such retards..
Dkoo15 1 year ago
eyvallah hoops
eskiyobazlardan 1 year ago
0:00-0:20 Classic Jordan. Epic.
Chaming91 1 year ago
his midrange game is just god-like
Nate00000000000000 1 year ago
For some reason, I always feel that his stint with the Wizards truly demonstrated his greatness, b/c MJ had to rely on his skills and wits totally.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
As usual.... Wizard uploads are always my favorites. Because it shows that he could do it against today's pseudo more advanced modern day defense aka 'Zone', and that he could do it against today superior athletes, even tho he was years past his playing and physical prime.
Also, he was doing this against taller defenders (Gooden) and against one of the best defenders of this entire generation (Battier).
andgar923 1 year ago 12
@andgar923 Yeah, Jordan just retired in 2003 and to hear people saying that players are stronger and more advanced now is pretty ridiculous, really. I don't think humans have evolved in seven years. The rules changes that have been made favor scorers.
VinmanMJ23 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Jordan just retired in 2003 and to hear people saying that players are stronger and more advanced now is pretty ridiculous"
Exactly..
Comment's like that are nothing but the delusions of grandeur of these dumb kids who are looking for a way to explain away the OBVIOUS superiority of MJ in regards to their favorite player when they're compared to him.
It's nothing more than juvenile, ignorant-arrogance to save face..
blackadam06 1 year ago
shaq: on of the most dominating centers
hakeem: the most skilled center
thegoldenhero 1 year ago
4:04 Jordan pulled Kwame Brown away from the ref...love it. He knew back then he was a problem haha.
mosfillers 1 year ago
Shaq the "best" big men of his era?! Jesus christ.
I hope you're referring solely to the fact that he was the most dominating. And even that unfortunate truth deserves no respect as he has been afforded more biased treatment from the officials than any other player in the last 20 years.
Players like Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Smits, and Duncan were INSANELY more talented than O'Neal. Period.
"Legit" is not a word that should ever be used to describe O'Neal's career.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu Well Shaq's era basically outlasted all those great centers. He was pretty much peaking as the last crop of truly great centers was dying out. However, what other big man has had the combination of size, speed, and athleticism that Shaq did? His career was totally legit, and that's not up for debate. Biased treatment from refs? They flagrant him because his fouls look like he put a bulldozer on the defender, and he can't even shoot free throws to save his life. I don't see it, buddy.
toomuchfails 1 year ago 3
He shot freethrows ok in the 2002 playoffs though, esp. against the Kings.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
The majority of talent that O'Neal DID display was during his first few years with the Magic. By the time he got to LA, his game predominantly became bulldozing (offensive fouling) his way to the hoop. It was pretty obvious why he bulked up.
Athleticism? Ha! Not with the Lakers, Heat, Suns, or Cavs. The fact that you're trying to credit him with size is laughable. That's not a talent. His bullying tactics were on display FAR more often than his speed with his spin move in the paint.
bubufubu 1 year ago
Shaq had hardly any competition at the Center position when he began to receive individual accolades. Quite the coincidence there. And yet, he still wasn't anywhere near as talented as Duncan.
Had he been officiated fairly, the man would have fouled out in the first half of every game he played. But O'Neal dunking on everybody is good for business. And that's all O'Neal's career is, a business move.
bubufubu 1 year ago
You are also ignoring that refs allowed defenders to basically beat up Shaq. A lot of the fouls that Shaq had to endure were hard or even flagrant fouls in today's standards. So the refs were basically letting him play.
Moreover, criticizing Shaq's bulldozering people when he was hacked along way is like accusing AI's quickness while carrying the ball from time to time.
Moreover, to say that Shaq was lacking in skills were a bit unfair. He was a decent ball handler, had a decent jumphook....
PAZ0619 1 year ago
If his defenders were allowed to "beat him up", then Shaq essentially got away with murder by comparison.
You should look up the rule for "charging" and then try to argue that Shaquille O'Neal wasn't allowed to break that rule on a very consistent basis. That would be a laugh riot.
We're talking about Shaq, not Iverson. One thing has nothing to do with the other. I've already admitted that it's a business. I'm aware of TONS of players getting superstar treatment for decades.
bubufubu 1 year ago
Exactly! Thats the point that I am trying to lead you to. Every superstar has a modus operandi of their own, and some of them are NBA business moves (AI's occasional AND ONE carrying is entertaining to many, even me, and defensive rule changes since 2000s enhanced this practice further).
PAZ0619 1 year ago
So because other players have also received superstar biased treatment from the officials, that means it's all a wash!? Is that a joke or what?
I'm talking about skill and talent. Do you understand the difference between afforded stats and earned stats?
bubufubu 1 year ago
What do u consider skills or talents? It is obvious that Shaq is certainly not the top 50 in terms of skills though.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Footwork, ball handling, shooting, passing, rebounding, one-on-one defense, team defense, movement sans ball.
Those are skills in the game of basketball.
bubufubu 1 year ago
could run the floor well in his prime, and could make a pass to break the double team.
I think you believe that it is easy to play with a 300lb frame. It is not necessary true. Oliver Miller, Diop, and even Kwame Brown were over or near 300lbs. They are all strong, but none are as strong as or as mobile as Shaq.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Shaq also had ENORMOUS hands. Should I over credit a 7ft guy with huge hands being double and triple teamed and hitting the wide open shooter for a three? Gimme a break.
Strength is NOT a talent or a skill.
And when exactly do you think Shaq's prime was anyway? Would that be when he was about 50lbs overweight and constantly getting injured from '97 onward? Would it be the years when he had hardly any competition at the Center spot?
bubufubu 1 year ago
Passing does not have much to do with hands. It is about how to hit the open man.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
A 7ft tall player with giant hands (facing double and triple teams) passing the ball to WIDE open shooters must have been REALLY tough for him.
Lets just call him the greatest passing Center of all time while we're at it. The man's career is built upon undeserved hype. Lest you forget that he was named to the Top 50 All Time after 4 and a half years of accomplishing next to nothing.
So go ahead, keep bestowing ridiculous praise upon him. He's used to it.
bubufubu 1 year ago
lol. Tell that to Dwight Howard in 2009 Finals.
It is also noteworthy that Larry Brown called Shaq the best passing center in the 2001 finals.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Shaq prime is 1999-2002.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
And what was his competition at Center during these years?
It sure as hell wasn't Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, or Smits.
So, who else ya got besides Duncan?
And even then, Shaq still wasn't exactly piling up the awards.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu Yeah but Shaq almost became the first unanimous MVP in 2000 I think...AI got one vote...but still u r right about many things concerning Shaq...but still he's one of the best I've ever seen...But still I think I'd take Olajuwon, Ewing and Duncan over him
flight23magic32 1 year ago
@flight23magic32 ewing over Shaq? That's hilarious! You must be a knick fan or something.
loepower 1 year ago
@loepower I am a Knicks fan baby! Anyway u shouldn't forget that Shaq got ALL of his championships AFTER MJs prime...And also Ewing never had an Anfernee Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, D Wade and LBJ caliber teammates...I mean he had Starks, Spree and Houston but I don't think these guys are good like the guys Shaq played with...
flight23magic32 1 year ago
@bubufubu oh i remember you ! You're that guy who said Walton, JacK sickma and Brad Daughtery were better centers than Shaq!LOL. Man you are such a hater. Why should a 7'2" 300lbs + guy play any different than he did. Stop the nonsense.
loepower 1 year ago
I'm not the one spouting nonsense. That would be ignorant "fans" such as yourself.
In terms of skill and talent, you're damn right those other players showed more skill in one basketball game than O'Neal did in his entire career.
Blah blah blah, "hater hater hater". The most overused word of the last decade. Congrats on following sheep whose opinions are made for them by ESPN and stat-whores.
I actually watch the games.
bubufubu 1 year ago
How about using footwork and ball handling skills to get around your defender rather than bulldozing them?
Centers like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Wilt Chamberlain all had offensive weapons that didn't include offensive fouling their way to the hoop. And guess what, none of those guys is exactly "small" either.
Poor excuses from a person who doesn't know the difference between skill/talent and afforded domination.
300lbs +? Try 350 plus.
bubufubu 1 year ago
Shaq was the best big man after 97, when Olajuwon started to decline. But from 92-97, Hakeem was the man, no doubt.
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Shaq was NEVER the "best" big man.
Yes, he dominated. But at no point was he ever the best.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu of course he was
MrWill0044 1 year ago
...the most overrated player of the last 25 years. I totally agree.
bubufubu 1 year ago
@bubufubu 30pts 14rebs 4assists and 3 blocks. Those were shaqs numbers in 2000 now don't say tim duncan(23pts 12rebs 3assists and 2 blocks) who was better than Shaq then
MrWill0044 1 year ago
Please tell me you understand that statistics are only HALF the story?
Besides, if you were cheating to beat your friends at Poker, would you want me to consider your stats to be "legit"?
bubufubu 1 year ago
RIP Lorenzen Wright
ArmenianAssassin 1 year ago
Even if Kobe wins # 6 next year, he'll always have had a dominant big man to take the load off of him. Jordan didn't. In fact, I thought Gasol should have been Finals MVP last season.
killerecho 1 year ago 27
@killerecho I guess you didn't see the games in Boston.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault I watched every single game. Kobe may have had more points, but Gasol made a bigger impact in the series, esp. defensively.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Using the defence card is weak, and what impact are you referring to?
In 3 straight road games, Pau averaged 14 and 8 on 43 pct shooting. As a big man, you can't win a finals MVP with those kinds of numbers. Kobe averaged 33.5 points and 6 rebounds in those games and was the chief architect of wins in game 1 and 6.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault and wat about Kobe's FG pct shooting on da road & finals ovrl
NBaBall3r26 1 year ago
@nikosvault Defense is the reason any NBA team ever wins the championship, so your "defence card is weak" statement is a little peculiar. Gasol was their defensive anchor that entire series, and he not only outplayed the entire Celtics front line (KG, Rasheed, Perkins, Davis, not exactly chumps), but disrupted their perimeter players on the weakside whenever they ventured into the paint. Ray had chipper shots blocked, Rondo missed gimme layups, Pierce had to get around Artest AND him.
killerecho 1 year ago
@nikosvault Btw, Bynum had one good game in the series and Odom scavenged on opportunity because the Celtics big men were so busy with Gasol.
Even on offense, Pau shot 44% (16/36) on the road to Kobe's had 42% on 33/78 and 12 TOs). And LA lost two of those games, as they tend to do whenever Kobe jacks up too many shots. Fact is, Gasol was a much more efficient scorer, with a much higher Ortg than anyone on the team playing major minutes.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Wonderful. You are doing the old "fg% of guards vs. big men" thing.
And pointing out the benefit of Celtics defence being "busy" with other players is quite ironic.
Let see, did the "defensive anchor" stop stop KG in Game 3? or Big Baby in Game 4? No, he got utterly destroyed.
And I guess Chansey Billups, Paul Pierce and Tony Parker should all return their finals MVP’s as well, because it all about the defence of the big men, right?
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Right, cuz Tony and Ray Allen would've totally stymied Gasol had they not been preoccupied with Kobe.
Davis had 18 and 5 in game 4, hardly dominating, BTW he avged 6.5 and 5.6 for the series. And as long as we're on the subject of defensive lapses, let's not forget how RayRay torched Kobe for 32 in game 2
Collectively, Celtics big men did a lot less damage than their back court in the series. 49.3 vs. 33.1 ppg, respectively. And LA had another defensive stopper in Ron.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Davis was dominant. Those 18 points came almost exclusively in the 4th. And what about KG’s 24 points on 68 % shooting in game 3 (something you smoothly avoided addressing).
And yes, Kobe did get torched by Ray in game 2, but I thought Pau distinguished himself BECAUSE of his defence.
And if you don't think Pau benefits from Kobe's presence, then our discussion is truly over.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Davis scored exactly half of those 18 in the fourth. Garnett had one good game in a series where he avged 13 and 5.6rpg. Did you know Pau had more blks & nearly as many offensive rbs as KG, Davis Perkins and Wallace COMBINED?
I never stated Pau did not benefit from Kobe's presence (and would never do so), but to suggest that he benefited more than Kobe did from him in that SERIES is nonsensical. Frankly, if he hadn't been the difference maker, we would've seen a repeat of 2008.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Well, 1/2
Davis had 7 points with 1m. to go in the third, but whatever. Pau was nowhere to be found when the going got tough on the road, had some excellent games in two blowouts wins at home (game 1+6), and benefited greatly from the absence of Perkins in game 7 (while still shooting poorly and missing 7 of 11 free throws).
nikosvault 1 year ago
@killerecho 2/2
Furthermore, I did not say that Pau benefited more than usual in this series, but he did benefit. And just because he was an absolute no-show in 2008, doesn’t make him finals MVP when he sporadically shows up in 2010.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault "Sporadically shows up?" Like when he bailed out Kobe's 6-24 stinker in game 7, when the going got tough AT HOME???
And FYI, Pau avged 14.7 and 10.2 in 2008, not exactly a noshow; the difference was in 2010 was his improved defense and toughness (compare the numbers for the Celtics bigs in 2008 vs 2010), but there I go again playing the weak card=)
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Pau did not "bailed out" Kobe, Ron Artest did. In the first half, Pau was just as dismal as Kobe, and his free throw shooting throughout the game was awful. To his credit, he did grab a lot of rebounds, but so did Kobe.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Pau missed 6 fts out of 13 (not 7 of 11 as you claimed) that game, incidentally Kobe also missed 6 fts that game. Artest was definitely huge for them, but so was Gasol. He got momentum-shifting rebounds and putbacks/3pt plays in the 4th quarter while fouling out Sheed, almost fouling out KG and helping shut down the Celts offense in the last 6 minutes of the game.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho Fisher was huge as well, and Odom. So in fact the whole team bailed out Kobe. It was not some earth shattering solo performance by Gasol (playing against a Boston frontline without Perkins and barely taking advantage).
And this quarter is the all important, indisputable evidence, that’s Pau was the MVP? erasing Kobe's 28.5pts, 8 reb and 4 ast. per game average in the series.
Good luck with that.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Odom was not "HUGE". Fisher had 2 key buckets late.The bench did zilch. The "whole team" was PG and Ron. He did better than Kobe in that game that was the point. You said earth shattering, I didn't. But how is it not important? You don't think late 4th qtr, game 7 in the freakin' FINALS is a big deal?
But that's not my only case for this argument, please check again.
And bringing up Perkins' absence is like saying Kobe lucked out cuz Celts didn't have James Posey anymore.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho The "whole team" was PG and Ron? Nope, that’s just not true. Sorry. End of story. Pau and Ron only had 21 of the Lakers 49 points in the second half.
And clutch performances by a second option in crucial finals games. Hmmmm, what does that remind me of? Let me think back.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Oh, so now it's a "clutch performance" after you spent the last 3 replies dismissing it. Which one is it??
LOL, as for that last one, you don't have to think very far, let's just put it that way.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho So you admits that Kobe was clutch as well, how nice.
I don't think Pau had a clutch performance in game 7, but I can defeat your weak argumentsgoing both ways.
Good half or not, he was not the most valuble player of that series. Try harder.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault where is this argument going...
BlackFrost1728 1 year ago
@BlackFrost1728 Nowhere, as far as I can tell. These half glass empty and half glass full arguments tilted against Bryant make any honest discussion difficult.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault You kinda have to go both ways when you don't have clear line of evidence in any direction. And where did you derive my "admission" from?
I've clearly cited a lot more facts and figures than you have so if you want me to try harder you'll have to bring something to the table as well. If not, I'll take my "weak arguments" elsewhere and leave you to your idolatry.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 1/2
The joke that Kobe was a second option this summer? Or did I misunderstand your joke.
And what clear line of evidence/facts have you presented? Your vague suggestion that Pau orchestrated everything that slowed down the Celtics offence? That he was a one man show in game 7 and should be awarded for that performance alone. Or how about your suggestion that no Perkins and another big body in Bynum did nothing to help Gasol from avoiding another 08 meltdown.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault You can't take that joke without the corollary that he's also the 2nd option. Orchestrated everything? Masterpiece? Earth-shattering? You keep substituting my points with your own hyperbole. If you keep doing that we can't have an honest discussion. I believe my exact words were that he anchored the defense and I backed that up with actual numbers in the Celts production. I'm not repeating them; they're all there. The suggestion that I was vague is disingenuous.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 1/2 I however, documented that he didn’t show up on the road, was dominated twice in the series (at crucial times) and only played well sporadically in his game 7 “masterpiece”.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Here's a few more points for vagueness sake: Kobe had only 1 more assist in that series than Pau, but had had a 1.0 Assist-TO ratio to Gasol's 2.0 Kobe did not have to play the kind of defense PG did. He had Artest on Pierce and, Game 2 notwithstanding, had Fisher chase Ray. He had Rondo and Tony Allen, neither of whom could shoot out of a paper bag. Still Rondo "dominated" leading his team in rbs and asts. Did I mention no Celtic big had over 5.6 rpg that series?
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 3/3 And by the way, idolatry. Really?
Do you know that I am in my 20's, grew up watching MJ and consider him by far the greatest player of all time? That I currently only have Kobe at number 7 on the all time greatest list (and behind Magic Johnson as the greatest Laker).
It's actually easy to defend Jordan’s superior legacy in this discussion, without taking away the achievements of Kobe Bryant. You should try it.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault I guess I hit a nerve. But I might have thought differently if you actually had any vids of another player on your channel page. You and I actually have that much in common. I don't hate Kobe, I just call it as I see it. Jordan's legacy will never need MY intervention to hold up against that of Kobe or anyone else. My original statement about Jordan never having a dominant big man is simply a fact. BTW respect for not letting this descend into flaming contest.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 1/2 So I understood the joke correctly, great.
And yes, it hits a nerve when every player vs. player debate disintegrates into name calling and claims of worship.
And why bring up my videos? Should hoopsencyclopedia be excluded from any serious discussion of MJ?
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault No, not excluded. But c'mon dude you have like 150 videos of pure unabashed Kobeiness. No Magic or anyone else in your top 7. What am I supposed to think? As well, it would unreasonable to assume that hoops, however informed, wouldn't be a tad bit of biased in any discussion of MJ.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 2/2
And yes, the numbers you present are vague and selective. The Celtics have an army of bigs. Some of them did not have big numbers. Doesn’t chance that Pau disappeared on the road and was dominated in two crucial games. No hyperbole there.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Of course they're selective (which of yours isn't?). But don't call them vague just cuz you find them inconvenient. The series wasn't decided on those 2 games, they're no more "crucial" than any other so that's a throwaway tag. Fact is PG dominated their army of bigs in the series overall. And saying he disappeared is absolutely hyperbole.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho What were you suppose to think. How about a laker fan with a subscription to a Jordan only channel? And If I want Showtime era videos, I can visit nonplayerzealot4's channel.
And let me get this straight. To say that Pau dominated the Celtics bigs, isn’t a hyperbole, but pointing out his play in three straight road games and his "crucial" lack of defence on Davis and KG is?
And the assist comparison between Kobe and Pau. How about the rebounds and points comparison.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault It isn't. I already gave you the figures of why this is.
It's not an assist comparison, it's the Assist to Turnover ratio, which is an indicator of how efficiently and effectively the offense is run. Rebounding? PG outrebounded KG and KP combined. Kobe barely outrebounded Rondo. Kobe has the high score, but his scoring has not been a reliable indicator of team success.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 1/2 Right, because points came by so easy in this series.
Anyway, I was not asking you about the Celtics rebounding compared to Pau (too many big men sharing those stats on the Celtics) or Kobe and Pau’s turnover ratio (more important than showing up on the road?). Kobe was excellent on the board and provided the only reliable scoring option throughout the series.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault No they certainly were not easy to come by and Kobe's FG% is testament to that. Those stats I brought up are for the entire 7 game series, road included, so yes they are more important than your 3-game case study.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho 2/2
And why are you not addressing MY points? Do YOU think Pau played MVP basketball on the road? Was he not pounded into submission by KG and Davis in game 3 and 4 (and being virtually invisible in game 5)? Talk about that please, instead of these ESPN type combinations of stats and ratios.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault No, why bother? Anything I bring up will just be dismissed as any form of code-speak for "I don't like it so it has no merit." And really? I've been called some pretty nasty things but ESPN?? I will see you outside sir.
killerecho 1 year ago
@killerecho lol, well to be fair, I do like Bill Simmons (ironically).
Anyway, if you don’t think a three game slump, in a seven games series, is more important than overall assists and turnover numbers, then I guess our discussion has come to an end.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@killerecho And the Perkins argument just proves why Pau was able to "step up" in game 7.
nikosvault 1 year ago
@nikosvault Nope, not really. He "stepped up" because he had to fill a vacuum left by someone who shall remain nameless. He actually had similar or better numbers in other games with Perkins defending. Wallace was in many ways a better matchup against him. Perkins was 6-9 on a good day, had terrible hands and no scoring ability.
killerecho 1 year ago
@nikosvault While we're debating Kobe vs Gasol, it looks like there's a Shaq vs the world argument brewing at the other end of this video =)
killerecho 1 year ago
@nikosvault And yes, I personally thought Ben Wallace in 04 and KG in 08 were more valuable to their team in the finals. No comment on Tony Parker as I barely watched the 07 series.
killerecho 1 year ago
Comment removed
killerecho 1 year ago
@nikosvault And did I mention that he was HUGE in game 7 during that 4th quarter run after Kobe spent the first 3 shooting them out of the game (6 for 24)?
killerecho 1 year ago
QFT
PAZ0619 1 year ago
Kobe only had 1 great qtr the entire finals (Game 5), other than that he STUNK! He was a COMBINED 11-36 (30%) in ALL of the 4 qtrs & was 6-24 in Game 7!!
Gasol utterly outplayed him & was the REAL Finals MVP..
Kobe avg'd 28ppg on 24 shots in that series..that's HORRIBLE LOL!!
Gasol avg'd 19ppg 4apg 11reb 4bpg on 48.2 FG%, no to mention he blocked 18 shots & got 35 offensive rebs in that series. That means from his offensive rebs ALONE, he got 23 MORE possessions for L.A. than kobe did..
blackadam06 1 year ago 66
@blackadam06 Preach on, brotha!
killerecho 1 year ago 17
@blackadam06 I don't think you respect how hard the game is, especially after scoring 30+ for 11 of 16 games like Kobe did last playoffs. he's the only player in NBA history to score 500+ for three straight years playoffs. He's already passed Larry Bird all time in playoff points and is the Lakers all time leading scorer in Regular season and playoffs. Against the magic in the finals, he was the first since Jerry West to avg 30/6/5 or something...not saying he's MJ but you gotta respect greats
vip129870 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@vip129870
"I don't think you respect [how hard] the game is"
Oh really?
"Our rules are [designed] to [allow] players to [penetrate] for [high percentage] shots. This has [allowed] for more high quality [perimeter] shots as well, because of how much [easier] it is to penetrate today."
-- Stu Jackson, VP of NBA Basketball Operations; "Stu Jackson Presents", NBA . com May 3, 2007
So is the VP of NBA basketball "unappreciative" of the alleged difficulties of the game as well?
blackadam06 1 year ago
@vip129870
"he's the only player in NBA history to score 500+ for three straight years playoffs"
And you're FAILING to realize that is was LARGELY made possible because the 1st Rd of the playoffs in MJ's era was a best of 5 series, in this era it's been CHANGED to a best of 7. That means there's MORE games & opportunities for kobe to score!
That's HUGE ADVANTAGE for him!
MJ is 1 of 3 guys to score 700+ pts in post season play. Now imagine what he could've done under these rules!
blackadam06 1 year ago
@blackadam06 OK u check the stats of pippen and jordan in terms of field goal and shot percentage and stats pippen is way better in terms of efficiency
andrewloveandrew 1 year ago
@andrewloveandrew
SMH..where do U dumb ass kids come from?!!
Since 1993, 32.3ppg has only been surpassed TWICE in a season. 51.6% shooting on AT LEAST 20 FG attempts has only been done 5 times by just 2 people, and both were centers (GOAT centers at that), but NO ONE'S done BOTH in 1 season in the last 27 years.
MJ did it for 8 straight seasons!!
Now when U can SHOW ME that kinda consistent efficiency (with scoring) from Pippen, then talk to me!
U don't know WTF you're talkin' about!!
blackadam06 1 year ago
@blackadam06 Don't even worry about these moronic kids...It's pointless, seriously...100& of people over 26 know who the GOAT is...You'll just frustrate yourself w/ the flash praising/individual oriented new NBA fans...And even looking at it from that perspective, MJ is the GOAT.
chrisx2k6 11 months ago
@chrisx2k6
I generally don't trip, but sometimes these stupid ass kids NEED to be called out on their disrespect, and arrogant-ignorance.
They just never expect for someone to do it, much less confront them with facts that that KNOW they can't refute, so that's the reason they fly into these temper tantrums & hurl a bunch of expletives, or my favorite, scream: "you're a hater!", when it was them who just tried to discredit someone that they knew absolutely NOTHING about LOL!!
blackadam06 11 months ago 2
@andrewloveandrew
Pippen only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he shot at least 50% from the field. MJ has 8 seasons like that!
MJ (as a guard), ranks #1 All Time in Player Efficiency Rating (PER), which is unheard of considering that the Bigs consistently have the best PER seasons. MJ has 4 of the All Time Top 7 PER seasons, but your ignorant ass is trying to tell me that Pippen from an efficiency standpoint, was better than him?
SMH..STFU U goddamn idiot..
blackadam06 1 year ago
@andrewloveandrew What the hell are you talking about?...I don't think you should EVER comment on the game of basketball again...Damn fool.
chrisx2k6 11 months ago
@blackadam06 What else is new..... Kobe has made a career of getting bailed out.... Shaq... Horry... Shaw... refs (kings).... Gasol....Artest.....
rmur23 1 year ago
@blackadam06 Exactly! All these kobe fans are blind to seeing the facts that Kb isnt as good as MJ. Sure he may be the best in the NBA today, but thats nowhere near the basketball GOAT. Derek Fisher had to put the team on his back during one of the games in the FINALS last year when Kb couldnt do anything. And the last game, Kb missed 2 clutch shots & Gasol gets the rebounds to put them back in. Yet Kobe gets most of the credit?!! Ridiculous!
Shermstyle23 10 months ago
@blackadam06 keep hating.
MrMarco1212 8 months ago
@MrMarco1212
Shut up!
Saying that phrase is just a childish cop out and a impediment to reason & logic, and indicates a SERIOUS case of immaturity.
I've taken no shots at his character as a person, so WTF are U talkin' about? U saying that is about as ignorant as it gets.
Morons like U only say that sh*t because U resent the fact that U can't refute 1 word of the facts, or prove any of the sh*t U you're saying.
That's all U idiots know how to say: "you're hating...you're a hater"...grow up!
blackadam06 8 months ago
@blackadam06 But you forget to mention how many points kobe had in the 4th quarter in game 7. Real winners are never afraid of the moment. They have short term memories, and what happened in the quarters preceding the 4th does not matter to them. Do you want him to stop shooting in the 4th quarter so his stats dont look bad? he's not lebron. Wrap it up
JivanNajarian 6 months ago
@JivanNajarian
"you forget to mention how many points kobe had in the 4th quarter in game 7"
???
Lemme repeat myself: he was 6-24 for the ENTIRE game!! Do U understand what that entails?!! He did JACK SHIT in that game.
In fact he tied his own record for the MOST MISSED shots in HISTORY for a finals series!!
If it's 1 thing I absolutely HATE about U goddamn kobe fanatics, is your constant excuse making..SMH
blackadam06 6 months ago
@blackadam06 way to ignore everything that i just said. Go watch the 4th quarter instead of getting hard off a box score like you are right now, look at the final score, go search a kobe 2010 finals celebration video, and then enjoy. Talk all you want about kobe fanatics, but I think you haters put in more effort.
JivanNajarian 6 months ago
@JivanNajarian
I'm not ignoring ANYTHING...U are..
Those box scores that U silly ass kobe fan-boys try SO HARD to ignore & deem irrelevant, are the damn RESULTS of what happened in the 4th qtr, as well as the other ones!
U keep talkin' about his 2010 finals, but REFUSE to acknowledge what he actually did. This is what U damn kobe homers do best...deny..deny..deny..deny...SMH
When U run into facts U can't get around, U IMMEDIATELY go into denial mode!
It's ridiculous...
blackadam06 5 months ago