Filthy Roman Sponge

[BluePhoenixNC]

neither one of us was there, and we do not know if this was meant as an insult. Furthermore: it was customary (per roman history records) to give the crucified this sponge of sour wine (vinegar) as an act of mercy to lessen the pain. Why it was handed on a stick, The mouth of the crucified was well out of reach for any bystander, and since the crucified could not use the hands a cup would not have worked either. Using a Hyssop stick, just released the numbing properties of hyssop into the sponge

[EdM021]

@BluePhoenixNC Except in the early spring Hyssop (Zatar / Syrian Oregano) was and is entirely herbaceous at the time of Passover. There is no way the hyssop could support a sponge. And John 19:29 in the Greek clearly says the sponge was wrapped around the hyssop. Which means the gallows wouldn't have been that tall.

[BluePhoenixNC]

-continued: aware of the numbing effect. Then at the end he requested a drink. The roman soldier who gave him the sponge is referred to as a merciful soldier, shall 2000 yrs of scripture actually lie ? - We still have this type of sour wine in the middle east and old greek empire. The closest is the greek wine Metaxa, which is kind of bitter. Even though Latrines and their visitors may or may not have been cleaned with sour wine, I dare to doubt that insult was the reason behind it.

[BluePhoenixNC]

OK, this theory is intriguing and makes sense to a degree, but I do not believe this. First off, sour wine or vinegar (not the one we know today), was a common drink amongst Roman Soldiers and others. Since water in the cities was most likely polluted most drank some sort of wine.

Sour wine with some sort of addition, gall/wormwood or any other bitter substance has an desensibilizing effect. Numbing the pain. That was the reason why Jesus first refused the first drink, as he was surely -

[EdM021]

@BluePhoenixNC I read in "The Jesus Mysteries" by Gandy & Freike that Gall was given to women undergoing childbirth to dull the pain and ease the birth. Unfortunately they didn't give their sources! Now if the authors are right, why would Roman soldiers give a crucified man gall to consume? Only if Roman crucifixion was a kind of impalement (not just nailing) would it make any sense. (Read my comment below from a year ago)

[BluePhoenixNC]

@EdM021 I appreciate you are getting back to me on this subject. I would say, the pain easing effect is not just limited to the 'internals'. But then again I am not a scientist or even an MD. I simply base my theories on historical 'evidence' written by romans and available in any well sorted library. Even though history and religion are my passion, I am aware that there are many theories and some may be offending to others. So I just wanted to bring my theory up as another point of view.

[EdM021]

@BluePhoenixNC You're welcome! :) I am like you, I base my hypotheses on the same historical evidence. BTW I found out in Pliny the Elder's Natural History that hyssop was used to treat inflammation of the anus and that it was to be surrounded by a sponge filled with vinegar when the treatment was applied, then some strong vinegar was to be taken internally. (NH 23.27.54) I found this out in the comment on the 23rd book of NH at Bill Thayer's webpage at penelope dot uchicago dot edu.

[JerryNixon]

I simply cannot believe this is being taught without better evidence. I can't help but ask if this crazy idea were true, then why would the sponge be there in the first place? This video appears to have been in the middle of the sermon. For the sake of giving the guy a chance, perhaps there was something prior to this that explained the missing holes in the sermon. Otherwise, no no no.

[Qrazii]

Do remember, they also gave JESUS gall to drink...why gall???

[EdM021]

@Qrazii Exactly. And what the bleep was gall?

[Qrazii]

In my own personal search to find out one simple question, "Why give JESUS vinegar to drink?" I came across Pastor Mark Driscoll's video.

As much as this may seem far fetched to some, please remember that Pastor Driscoll went to Jerusalem to investigate "the man who is God" and came across info that he did not plan on finding.

In the end of it all, even if you believe the teaching from this video or not, kindly continue asking yourselves, "Why give JESUS vinegar to drink?" Matthew 27:48.

[rexkenley]

What Mark says here have Biblical support. The fact you don't see it is because of the limitations of the English language. Go back and read the original Greek and Hebrew by using a concordance.

[kentoakowen]

I kinda doubt this for a couple reasons. If it's a sponge that's wiped many soldier's butts, 1) a soldier should have gotten it, 2) the sponge should have already been attatched to the stick, not there for someone to grab with their hands. Who would touch it? Bible says they weren't attatched before that time 3) disinfect the sponge in a drink...? I don't think so. Never heard of public butt whiping with the same thing before.

[EdM021]

@kentoakowen Yes, good observations. The Gospels themselves were poorly written. 1) The soldiers were guarding Jesus, they wouldn't allow anyone else near the three crosses 2) Exactly. Hyssop a.k.a. majoram vulgaris (scientific name for syrian oregano) is good for injuries to the butt, meaning Jesus was impaled on the cross not just nailed to it 3) The soldiers always had their own individual drinking supplies. The jar was for the crucified, who were legally dead once nailed to their crosses.

[janeym]

Hmmmm that's actually a very interesting thought, the drink he asked for didn't turn out to be that nice after all....

[quickkickz]

bad exegesis... just to make a shocking illustration. very sad

[desasterz]

Dr Zakir Nik sais he was obviously not dead. They didn't breack his bones. Ha ha ha! He's probably gonna argue Jesus wasn't real because the toumb is empty.

[ghostofcao]

Mark 15:36 says "And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink...." Keep reading, and you will see that these are two separate events. Jesus refused the first drink b/c it was given medicinally, but when he "received the sour wine, he said, 'It is finished,' and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:29)

[99minerkc]

"Mark reports (15:22-23):

And they took him to a place called Golgotha (which is interpreted as Place of the Skull). And they offered him wine treated with myrrh, but he did not take it. And when they had crucified him...

After Jesus refused it, he was attached to the cross; the words of the text may be understood as meaning that the soldiers proceeded to the crucifixion because he had refused the alternative of the drink" You're making up lies to fit your sermon! SAD, VERY SAD!

[jamie4x4x4x4]

Matthew 27 vs 48-50

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him." 50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

It seems you have refused to read Matthew's account of the Crucifixion. SAD, VERY SAD lol

[99minerkc]

Hmm, then the bible is in a fact a lie(has contradictions)and theists are in fact brain washed misled by the controllers(religious authorities)! I knew it!!

[bigbadwolff1]

Do you have a contradiction in mind

[jamie4x4x4x4]

A contradiction would be if one gospel said that Jesus wasn't really crucified. When a few different people see the same event happening, each individual will have a tendency to remember a certain detail., take any news story, if there are three different people reporting the same incident they often highlight different things, this does not mean they contradict one another, rather they compliment one another.

[greatestgiftis]

the main focus should be the rath of sin jesus bor, and prophecy being fullfield, wy does he get into this typ of stuff, i mean if i was a nonbeliever in this guys church right now, would would be the most importent thing fo me to come to know about gods Crucifixion

and what was done for the sinner, just a thought

[greatestgiftis]

Jn 19:28-29 After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I thirst." There was a vessel filled with common wine. So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth.

This is found in:

Psalm 69:22 Instead they put gall in my food; for my thirst they gave me vinegar.

he should have preached on the prophecy being fullfield rather than dirt, what is more importent to the none believer here

[bigbadwolff1]

Im not far from Brand, I possibly have seen you preach, next time you preach let me know.

[bigbadwolff1]

Thx. But seemingly coming from the same doctinal background, you have to undersand what I see. Im nosaint,im not a prude either. I know subjects such as fornication, adultery,premarital sex,homosexuality,and the like should be dealt with from the pulpit.He takes it way too far.

[YeshElsm]

As I said earlier we agree that Mark Driscoll took the sexual issues too far.

I do feel your pain and I do understand your concern.

[bigbadwolff1]

Matt 12:33-37; 15:11,18 I never thought about it, but now that it is mentioned ;those scriptures show us that the mouth does reveal the heart.

[bigbadwolff1]

Im aware that Gods word doesnt return void, and that people are saved in spite of what I said about SFM. But this will produce false converts decieved into thinking they are saved because of a watered down Gospel, not counting the cost of bearing the Cross

[bigbadwolff1]

Mark is a Calvinist which I totally agree with. You arent with them guys that pester people in front of Brand Marketplace. lol We win people to Christ in order to bring them into the Church. Unredeemed do not have a permanent place in Christs body. The Church is a place where Christians fellowship, exercise their gifts,grow in the Grace and knowledge of our Savior, and get strengthened to carry out Christ work in the world. Unsaved have no part in that.The S FM doesnt have that agenda

[YeshElsm]

I can find nothing to disagree with you on this brother.

It is funny that you mention Brand Blvd. Yes, I have preached on Brand on occasion and when I have I've used gimmickry to draw a crowd. I've given out money for trivia and used a dummy corpse to draw a crowd. No one seems has a problem with drawing a crowd to the Gospel using stuff like this but for some reason when if comes to a worship style, architecture, clothing, art, or furnishing people get up tight.

[bigbadwolff1]

Any wholsome means can be used to attract attention to the Gospel. The Church is a different story, though a Church may have Evangelistic fruit, that is not its primary purpose. It is a place for believers to worship,to equip the Saints, share our gifts, uplift one another, grow in the Word. Though it may not sound right, that is our example in Scripture. A nonbeliever cannot contribute to the body nor be in submission to it. It is like having a stranger in on your family business.

[YeshElsm]

True, it should be all that. Don't you think we can achieve that plus make it accessible to outsiders though? I say yes and I think it can be done without compromising the Gospel.

[bigbadwolff1]

The seeker sensitive goal is to attract numbers by modern music styles,hip lingo, cool acting pastors, (which in and of itself isnt bad)and softening of the Gospel(which is bad) to attract unbelievers in hope to "save"them. We can do different tactics to draw people, but when its all said and done it is God that does the drawing by the poclaimation of the Word. Unregenarate are unable to worship, understand the clear Gospel,and grow in grace thereby edifying the Church.

[YeshElsm]

Thank you for sharing this. That is what i figured the problem to be; I would share your distaste for this.

However, if this is what you think is going on at Mars Hill then you would be wrong. Even if this was Mark Driscoll's philosophy of ministry, which I don't believe it is, then no one could ever accuse him of watering down the Gospel. He preaches the Gospel completely, rails against sin constantly. You know what? People are getting saved in mass.

[YeshElsm]

It sounds like BigBadWolff1 has an ax to grind.

You make a whole lot of assumptions and judgments which are not true. You judge Pastor Mark's motives and you assume to know the means by which he attracts/leads people to false conversion. Be very careful here. These are not righteous judgments that you are making.

You don't like the way he interprets Song of Songs, fine. You do not approve of his use of the colloquial language in his preaching, okay. But don't judge the man's heart...

[YeshElsm]

I wonder if you've even listened to any of Pastor Mark's preaching. Reading your comments I would not think so. Rather, it would appear that are regurgitating something that you heard from one of Mark Driscoll's detractors. Todd Friel, Dr. MacArthur, Phil Johnson?

BTW, unlike you, those guy do not attack Driscoll on his Gospel preaching. Their's is an attack on what they believe to be inappropriate language, alone.

[bigbadwolff1]

Im quite familiar with his teaching. Would you watch some of these videos with Christ? Would you recommend some of his videos to your mom,then discuss them with her? My point YeshElsm is there is a time and place for these subjects. I know people like you think the Gospel has to be relavent to different times and cultures, but the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION,with or without your smut you approve of. Just because the culture speaks inapropriately doesnt mean you have to also.

[YeshElsm]

I never said that I like everything that Mark Driscoll does. I think his Peasant Princess was off, so no I would neither recommend it nor watch it with my mom.

I agree with you that there is an appropriate place to speak about sexual issues. While I do believe we can speak about the beauty of this gift of grace from the pulpit, I do think that there are some things that should be spoken about behind closed doors. That is where I think Pastor Mark crossed the line. (continued)

[YeshElsm]

Where I think you have erred however, is assuming that Driscoll's prime motive is to get big numbers into Mars Hill for the sake of big numbers. That he is a shock jock preacher that is interested in lowering the bar to attract in the heathen only. That is judging the man's heart friend. You don't know that.

[YeshElsm]

Could you explain why the "Seeker Movement" is bad?

[bigbadwolff1]

Exactly ,which aussumptions and judgements arent true? What judgement were made on Marks Heart? My ax is actually the Sword (word of God) which I measure all against.

[YeshElsm]

You may have the Sword brother but that is not what you are wielding here, it is an ax. Otherwise you would have made your argument against Driscoll's assumptions on the video rather than listing everything that you find distasteful about him.

Your comments that I feel went beyond the pale of discernment and into unrighteous judgment will follow.

[YeshElsm]

BigBadWolff1:

Total unecessary assumption, with absolutely no basis. Strictly for shock value.

Your kind puts to much weight in what man is capable of, while not giving the Spirit credit for His work. The followers that are gained by hype and not drawn by the Spirit are not converts. So evaluate your tactics(seeker friendly) and proclaim the TRUTH.

[YeshElsm]

I also find your tone a bit condescending. Do you actually think that Pastor Mark does not realize what you've said here? "do you not know that along with mans and satans wrath,He was taking all the wrath the Father pouring out for the sin of mankind." He continually preaches this.

[bigbadwolff1]

Read the comments carefully, you are mistaken in who I am refering to and why I am stating those things

[YeshElsm]

My apologies if you were not addressing Pastor Mark in those statements, it appeared that way.

[bigbadwolff1]

Whether I am right or wrong, you are doing to me exactly what you are condemning me of, voicing my views, all the while being a bit condescending

[YeshElsm]

Not exactly. You were making statements, which I initially perceived, to be directed toward Pastor Mark's philosophy of ministry and heart. You would of course not be able to make such a judgment. What I thought was condescending was you explaining the Gospel to Mark Driscoll.

[bigbadwolff1]

Its hard to separate the assumptions from the person who made them.

[dcbailey8589]

I will not deny that pastor Mark said some things that were not exactly in scripture here. But I beleive with all my heart that God is using pastor Mark in large way to reach one of the most depraved cities in our world today. Do not discredit pastor Mark for this mistake. And do not judge lest you be judged. You should love your brother.

[bigbadwolff1]

Discernment is not the "do not judge" you are quoting. Love is not a warm feeling. Gods method of showing love sometimes means leading people out of error.

[bigbadwolff1]

Are you aware John Macarthur didnt invite John Piper back to the Resolved conference , because of his endorsement of Mark Driscoll? I happen to like John Pipers preaching. Im partial to Calvinists like Mark, but there is a time and place for dealing with issues such as..............

[bigbadwolff1]

BTW the dirty taste mark refers to would be the least of His problems ,do you not know that along with mans and satans wrath,He was taking all the wrath the Father pouring out for the sin of mankind. Focus on the atonement not on sensationalism,pastor.

[bigbadwolff1]

We are the agents by which God draws His sheep. We are to proclaim the Gospel as stated in the Bible , not by clever invention. One convert gained by the Spirits work is worth more than a hundred false converts, pastor!

[mahhootenanny]

Humanity is depraved.

[bigbadwolff1]

Total unecessary assumption, with absolutely no basis. Strictly for shock value. Just like when Mark speaks of acts that should only be spoken of in private. He should rather open the doors of his office if someone has a question of a delicate matter. It seems the motive is to sanctify filth,in order to attract attention. Ever hear of modesty. The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. Filth and smut carries no power except to attract attention to self.

[mahhootenanny]

"Total unecessary assumption, with absolutely no basis."

Could be true, but I agree it's not in the Bible explicitly. I double-checked all four gospels after I watched this, and it wasn't there. The text does not say they put a sponge in his mouth to shut Him up either.

Sponge on a reed... well, I wouldn't put it past the Romans to do that.

[dcbailey8589]

How many people has pastor Mark led to Christ?

How many have you?

How many people has pastor Mark dicsipled?

How about you?

I do not know you or anything about you but I am willing to bet that you and pastor live in completely different cultures and are ministry to completely different people. I live in arkansas. I am a Baptist minister (SBC). This did not offend me in anyway and i am very supportive of anyone who is doing kingdom work! By the way. Pastor Mark preaches the Gospel every day.

[bigbadwolff1]

Oh, I see we have a pragmatist here."A Baptist minister" that doesnt care how he gains numbers. All smut attracts is false converts. Dont you trust in the power of the Truth? Your kind puts to much weight in what man is capable of, while not giving the Spirit credit for His work. The followers that are gained by hype and not drawn by the Spirit are not converts. So evaluate your tactics(seeker friendly) and proclaim the TRUTH.

[dcbailey8589]

I totally agree with you that "The followers that are gained by hype and not drawn by the Spirit are not converts." But how many converts do you gain by spending your time pointing fingers at people you believe to be wrong? Preach the gospel! Nothing else is needed. The reason why we have so much division in the church now is because people can not stop nitpicking little details and calling each other heretics. You my friend are doing nothing but contributing to the problem.

[bigbadwolff1]

4 For as in one body we have many members, [5] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, Romans 12:4-8.

[bigbadwolff1]

Surely as a Baptist minister you do not expect those in your congregation with a savy for business that give liberally to the work of God ,to perform the same way the gifted evangelist or pastor is in the way of bringing numbers to Christ. For it is the giver that makes it possible for that work to be done.Or the saint who has been through many troubles in his or her life that can uplift the downtrodden. Or the volunteer that keeps the facilities clean so that others can be edified.

[bigbadwolff1]

Then there is the teacher who makes sure the doctrine is according to the scriptures. Boy, what a lopsided church you would have if those with different gifts arent encouraged to cultivate them(not all can be the eye) All in the body make them numbers you refer to possible by the working of the Holy Spirit. So examine your ministry Pastor or think before you speak.

[lwsdrummer]

I didn't think they jabbed it into his throat to shut him up.

He said "I thirst" and they gave it to him to moisten his lips. still pretty gross if it was a turd-wiper though :S

[ArboriusOwns]

I'm not sure about the rest of your comment but Jesus was charming but not Caucasian he was Hebrew.

[ArboriusOwns]

"did not take the offered sponge"

"because he just wasn't thirsty"

I'm not sure why you lie but heres the scrip

John 19:28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

[EdM021]

@ArboriusOwns Some research will reveal that the hyssop in antiquity was 'majoram vulgaris' = oregano. At Passover it's herbaceous, incapable of supporting a sponge. This plant is a powerful topical painkiller; Pliny the Elder said it was good for treatment of anal injuries and soreness. (Google LacusCurtis, Pliny the Elder's Medical History, Book 23, scroll down to pgh XXVII, end of line 55, then go to the end for the comments) Now why John said they put it to his mouth (instead), I don't know.

[EdM021]

@ArboriusOwns 'majoram vulgaris' is the present day botanical name scientists use to identify the type of hyssop / oregano that grows in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Israel. But Greeks (the Ten Towns were Greek) could have brought their own, imported and planted by Greek settlers. If you put present-day Greek oregano on your tongue, it'll go numb!

[EdM021]

@ArboriusOwns Except at Passover time, hyssop is a herbaceous plant. It's utterly incapable of suppoprting a sponge full of vinegar. Either the sponge was on a pole-reed (Mediteranean bamboo) or some other stick, or the cross was low, or the hyssop was -- read my other comments -- used for something else entirely. And yes, the Romans would be that sadistic.

[Pablo113]

You think Jesus mighta wiped his ass with that sponge?

Pablo

[Xoroaster]

One of the few trolls I've seen on here, is me. And by god, you replied to me.

You're not just nasty dookie-loving people, you're also a bunch of morons. But hey, nothing else is really expected of you.

[samdon815]

The sponge contained laudenum , which is , wine mixed with opium. Jesus did not want his mind clouded.

[houseguy4]

I love Mark's teaching, but we must be careful to believe based on what the Bible says, not a remote possibility. I think he took this one a step too far by making a connection between poop sponges and the Gospel.

Surely there was more than one sponge in Jerusalem.

Read the accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, then believe base on their testimony and what God has them write.

I hope Mark makes the point that John 19 says this was to fulfill prophecy, showing Jesus to be the Messiah.

[Xoroaster]

Bloody hell. The stuff Christians find interesting is freakin disturbing.

[todoke]

bahahaha

[hawkse]

We don't find it interesting. We just realize what Christ went through to buy our redemption was something none of us would willingly suffer.

[Xoroaster]

By making it as horrifying and weird as possible? Heck, if it was a sponge, it must have been a butt sponge right? And in order to understand Jesus, we have to have a vision of the taste of poop?

You guys are into some strange filthy stuff.

[hawkse]

1st, research crucifixion. It was the most horrifying way to kill , so much that there had to be a new word to describe it (excruciating means of the cross).

Second, we're not into the stuff. We're into Jesus. The fact that he was willing to do what He did to save us from our sin makes us love Him all the more.

Last, (this will be my last since you'll believe what you want) when you're in another country and someone shares something cultural, it gives you insight. That's all this is.

[Xoroaster]

BS. The most horrifying way to kill has to be flaying, tar and feathering, disemboweling, or my personal favorite, impaling. What the heck "the most horrifying" has to do with Jesus, don't know. But you guys keep saying it.

Second, yeah you are into it. It's not enough that this guy you claimed as the son of god was supposedly crucified. Oh no, not enough. It's got to be the most horrible death possible, with extra dookie mouth. Otherwise, it would be meaningless.

You guys are sick.

[solachristos2]

it wasnt the physical of death that was horrifying for my jesus but the horror of Christ recieving the full blow of the wrath of God... read the princes poison cup... its a pictur little kiddy book but its good enough to let people understand that it wasnt the physical pain but the internal one

[Xoroaster]

Ok, wait a tick. I thought Jesus was God. How the heck is he blowing himself? And how is that a bad thing?

And are you saying is was psychologically tougher on Jesus to die, than anyone else ever? Is that your argument, that he wanted to die less than anyone else?

[solachristos2]

he is God in three persons. we sinned from the very begining and are unclean before him. God wants us so he sent his son to take the wrath that we are supposed to recieve,,,, damnation. yet Christ took that instead so that his chosen ones wouldnt have to.... yet he rose on the third day because he is God and God His FATHER is just and knew that he was innocent... nevertheless i am not about to throw the precious word to someone like you so when u go

[Xoroaster]

So, you have three gods now? Why the heck not 4?  Can we call Satan a god too? He's kind of a bad god, other people have bad gods, why can't we call Satan an evil god?

And if Satan isn't a god, why the heck did Jesus create Satan? Just to torture Job?

What is worse, living like Job, or dying like Jebus?

[solachristos2]

to hell u can find everythign out since ur so arrogant on earth... its my prayer that u wont though

[Yankyal1]

Stop replying to internet trolls

[EdM021]

@Xoroaster I did some research into crucifixion, and judging what Justin Martyr, Iraeneus and Tertullian said about the construction of the cross and what Seneca said about the standard operating procedure of crucifiying right-side up on a cross, it includes your personal favorite method of execution, as well as nailing, stretching apart, hanging, exposeure to the elements and utter public humiliation.

[SuperFlyNB]

Also it is clear that placing of the sponge on the stick was occurring during the crucifixion which means this fecal matter would have been handled by the people preparing the stick and sponge (highly unlikely). This is so intellectuality dishonest it is disgusting.

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[SuperFlyNB]

The bible does not indicate that was the case, this is nothing more than an assumption on the speakers part. Maybe they would put a sponge on a stick for another reason such as.. I dont know.. maybe they couldnt reach his mouth?

As Keippernicus accurately pointed out in his video it is the book of Matthew where they place the sponge on the stick, not Luke, so the wrong book is being referenced.

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[Keippernicus]

Hope you approve my video response!

[dopeskies]

This is pure speculation that jerk off appeals to younger indoctrinated youth to make a money off them bet this clown doesn't believe his own bullshit

[EdgeRatedR007]

even a fuckin christian like him hasnt read carefully the bible. no one put shit to jesus'e mouth, according to the bible. of course the bible is a bunch of horseshit so the whole story never happened.

[BecominglikeJESUS]

I have never heard that before. Where did you come up with that?

[hisbabygirl1227]

I think the point has completely been missed here. I think what Pastor Mark Driscoll is trying to point out is that this explanation of the sponges is what they were TYPICALLY used for... they did indeed give him vinigar water off of one of these sponges, while He was on the cross. Not necessarily saying that THE sponge they used was previously used for this reason, but to show how lowly they thought of Christ by using a sponge that is normally used for that reason....

[Petematrix]

How many varied types of sponge do you think existed 2000 years ago? Oh my....

The people standing next to the cross clearly should have improvised some kind of proper cup on a stick for jesus. Am I right?

[hisbabygirl1227]

you've still obviously missed the point. it was the lack of compassion that mark is trying to show here. and what people have mistook for compassion was just another way that the roman soldiers degraded Christ on the cross.

[EdM021]

@Petematrix But these were Roman Soldiers charged with execution. Why should they care to improvise a proper cup-on-a-stick for Jesus? They were mocking him,so they'll just use what they have!

[MyHeadisupMyBackside]

Interesting, one point they understood that one sponge lead to infections, oops evolution at work. That is another post. Now I personally respect what Jesus did, though I know for a fact it cant apply to me, because I am reprobated. I E no hope what so ever, from the foundations of the world I was lost, even before my great great grand parents were born I was lost.

But Jesus cant forgive me because I am reprobated like the vast majority of humanity. I dont get it.

[GryphonRider23]

'Reprobated', just looking it up... K, I got it. But I am a little confused. Are you dead yet?

How can you 'know for a fact' it doesn't, and WILL NEVER, apply to you?

On this side of eternity we can't know for a fact anything; we're working on faith and best guesses (educated, yes. 100% certain, no).

Jesus blood was sufficient for all humanity, even if not applied to all of humanity. John 3:16, God wills for all to be saved, but he won't force you.

There is no reprobation until judgement!

[hisbabygirl1227]

while you are spot on, I don't know about you, but i AM 100% certain of my faith in my God, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the blood that Jesus shed on the cross on calvary bought and paid the price for my sins, and because I have accepted Christ into my heart and my life, when I die, I have not really died, but rather passed on from this earth to spend eternity in Heaven with my Jesus! :)

[danielraysir]

this is really good.

[k1111117]

IF this is true is amazing! However, I have never heard this before. Did any of the church fathers teach this? Is there any extra-biblical evidence for this? If so, it is POWERFUL, If not it would not be the first time a person made a mistake teaching the bible. Preachers are just men--not perfect men.

[AAL]

God is punishing Jesus

Malachi 2:2-3

[TheRhapsodyBlue]

Comment by sjonee was the most accurate. A bystander gave Jesus the vinegar when he asked for water. Some scholars believe this was done to help him, not hurt him, because vinegar acts like an overall body tonic on the body. Apple cider vinegar in particular is very good for you, acting as a tonic, disinfectant, and will give you a boost of energy. At that time Jesus was weak and suffering so it is possible the vinegar was given in mercy, not malice.

[hisbabygirl1227]

Mark's sermon is indeed biblical. If you cross reference in John 19, you will see this. Pick up a study bible and you will see that Mark is not the only one who interprets it in this way. Scholars of the doctrine all throughout history have taught as much.

[777CarpeDiem]

It is unfortunate that he bases his whole sermon on a ridiculous supposition.  He has not taken us deeper into Scripture, but rather, he has taken us away from it.

[danielraysir]

:P like Bill Johnson said, "Eat the meat, and throw out the bones."

There is good stuff in this little clip if you don't focus so much on the part that makes you uncomfortable or what not

[777CarpeDiem]

He is not a scholar and I don't know any scholar who believes this. We have to ask ourselves: "What does the text say?" The Bible says nothing of the sort.

He is guilty of an equivocation fallacy - Assuming that two different uses of sponges in the First Century are the same. While public restrooms used sponges, he has to make an unwarranted leap to believe that this kind of sponge was used at the crucifixion site.

[elvismilk]

Let's not forget whacko John claims he hears Jesus tell him he is thirsty, LOL.

[Kevbox2008]

It's true we don't REALLY know how it happened. However, I know this is the equivalent of what I've done ti Jesus with my sin.

I understand what you're saying. The fact Jesus said he was thirsty is a key element to the reason for the sponge but the possibility of it happening this way are pretty likely.

[elvismilk]

My point was about John and his fraudulent testimony, he claims Jesus spoke to him, when the other gospels claim Jesus cries out, yet no one is close enough or able to decipher the words, somehow though whack job John is, LOL.

[hisbabygirl1227]

how is it fallacy to show the contrast of what these sponges were typically used for? he was explaining this to prove a point of how lowly they thought of Jesus when the crucified Him on the cross, because the same type of sponge that they used for the bathrooms, was indeed the same type of sponge they shoved in His mouth with vinigar water. that's not fallacy. that's comparison and teaching.

[777CarpeDiem]

Mark should know better than this.

[lombardoson]

The text Jesus is eluding to in John 19 is most likely Psalm 69:21. John does say Jesus said it to fulfill scripture. In the context of Psalm 69:21 the giving of sour wine is indeed a negative as it is coupled with the giving of poison for food. I'm not saying that the sponge was indeed used at a public bathroom, but I would also not say that Mark is mishandling the word. In the context of the crucifixion the negative aspect of his idea does make sense.

[sjonee]

This is not at all true! Go read John 19 and you all will see that Christ said He was thirsty and a bystander went and got Him something to drink which Christ RECEIVED! If it was full of stool I really doubt that Christ would have received it! He is mishandling God's word!!

[drums4praise]

First of all, relax. There are a few reasons why this could be true. 1) Jesus was nailed to a cross, hand and foot. He was in no position to argue with anything given to Him. 2) If He was that thirsty, He would have accepted liquid from any source. People have been known to drink their own urine in extreme cases of desperation. 3) He endured insults, beatings, pain, rigged trials, and an execution he did not deserve, all out of love for us. How much more would he have taken a filthy sponge?

[lojent]

wow i never knew i had thought is was compassion...wow

[gonzocom]

Conjecture or not I don't put this one past the Romans of that day. They had great imaginations when it came to contriving new and "fun ways" of making people suffer.

[Broadus55]

Mark has a reputation for being reformed evangelicalism's shock jock. His presentation is nothing but speculation that goes for the "Wow!" factor and is not supported by the gospel accounts.

[goddance721]

I do not know about the poop sponge theory. But when has given a person vineger to drink compassion. WHo drinks vineger when thirsty.?

I never though about this statement in the bible before, but I knew it was not compassion.

[goddance721]

*I know I spelled vinegar wrong*

[Eloquorius]

I love Mark, I really do, but completely speculating when it comes to the supposed filthy sponge for Jesus. In 20 years of Christian research I've never heard such an interpretation, and his "facts" seem rather contrived, or conjecture at best. I'm going to have to look into this one a bit.

[ChozSun]

Jesus Christ was given the equivalent of used toilet paper soaked with vinegar, piss and feces to his mouth, nose and tongue.

With that, Jesus declares "It is finished."

Therefore...

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[TheManWhoWalked]

I am afraid this isn't true what jesus actually said in the bible whilst on the cross amongst the other wise loving words he said. Was this. " I thirst " which means well....... he was thirsty. " So a roman guard filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon a hyssop, a kind of branch/spear, and put it to his mouth. This was an act of compassion. Not a sponge full of feces that is unbiblical. I'm not sure what mark was trying to get at but I just wanted it clear. John 19:28 -30 Check it out

[1337faqsguy]

The fact that he said he was thirsty doesn't prove anything. It may very well be that the soldier was giving him the nasty vinegar disinfectant solution to "drink."

What pastor Mark said isn't biblical because it's not in the bible. We can't know for sure about this detail but what he said makes sense and I have no reason not to believe it.

[jdwoody76]

I dont know if I agree with this. Where is the biblical background supporting that it was a feces covered sponge pushed to his lips. It could have very well just been a sponge (possibly soaked in vinegar) and the only way they could get it that high was on a stick clearly...

[ambrosius]

Wow this just floors me. Hurts my heart so badly to see what we did to the Son of God. What sad lengths we have gone to to stay entrenched in sin and what great lengths God has gone to to save us from that trap.

[QuakeCityRockers]

Very Powerful and it would make sense in light of Christ taking up our curses...

Though the stick and spounge part I would like more clarification in bible back grounds... I'll look up in my D A Carson NT survey book or Lane's commentary on Luke

Any suggestions to cooborate the stick and sponge thing.... What would be a good NT backgrounds book?

Other than that powerful and good presentation it gives you a reason to pause about the active/passive obedience of Christ and his passion.

[jstorly]

After all the hatred Christianity has generated for homosexuals, after all the Christians who have opposed social progress such as universal health care, after all the anger and prejudice towards Muslims and people of other religions, I would say he deserved that sponge!

[osummuso]

Glad you got to this one before me.

What we see now, is absolute desperation from preachers, who are now INVENTING things not even written in the 'Book of Fantasy' to serve their own purposes.

Doubt Jesus would approve.

[iouaname673]

Whoa! Let's think about this for a second.

God came to earth as a man, preached love, compassion, forgiveness, and helping the poor. He lived a clean, sinless life, and was murdered for his free speech.

His followers, sinning people who sometimes forget the beauty of the forgiveness taught in Christ's message, screw up. So you want to shove a crap covered sponge in Christ's mouth for things other people did? It's almost funny. It really is almost funny.

Hah freaking hah.

[kamaujackson811]

Social progress......and the looming destruction of our country.

Why should the government make me pay for someone's healthcare?

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

[jstorly]

Thank you! You have illustrated my point -- God wants us all to care for the poor, and American Christians want to protect their money! It's a matter of priority. May the true Lord open your heart to the poor and your eyes to the truth. I can't be angry at you because I was once deceived as you are.

[jstorly]

Oh, and just to forego the whole "government vs. neighbors caring for neighbors" argument, let me add that being opposed to anything that would help the poor is a sin. When is the last time you have handed thousands of dollars to a homeless person to go have his teeth fixed? No, we need the government...

[jarettdaferret]

John 19:28-29 says Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.

I love this guy, but he is wrong here.

[Samalamalamdam]

Thanks, Lord.

[ixthustruth]

It also said in John 19:30 that he received the sour wine...some speculate he needed just enough to wet his throat to speak his last 3 words. Also found that hyssop was a small bush used by the Israelites to smear blood on the doorposts during the Passover. If it was a filthy roman sponge and he had to take it to speak...wow...the lengths he went to "finish it" for us.

[ixthustruth]

I had never heard this before and it made sense that they would not show him any mercy. I had always heard they tried to numb him while on the cross. I researched it a little and found that sour wine was a common drink among the soldiers(non-alcoholic) i found that the vinegar may be used kind of like smelling salts to keep the crucified awake (cruelty), but nothing specific about sponges from the public toilets. If anyone does let me know..this indeed would had to the cruelty and torture.

[EdM021]

@ixthustruth I also found out that vinegar also dehydrates you (makes you urinate more). And hyssop (now called oregano) applied to any mucous membrane (like the entrance or exit to one's body) would numb it. And the Roman cross frequently had a so-called 'seat' that penetrated one whenever he hung from the crossbeam. So the Romans may have applied hyssop-in-vinegar to that place down there so He'll more actively "ride" the seat! Then they put it to his mouth. Cruelty on cruelty on cruelty. X(

[stanzibritovsky]

WOW

[pUmPkIn3aT3r]

I am speechless.

[phijufa]

no words. thank you jesus. i love you.