The Most Profound Moment in Gaming: MGS2 AI Conversation Analysis Part 1 of 2

[hatchhyjack]

brain damage X_X

[ChickenCupcakeable]

When they come to a decision objectively they can easily become incorrect. For example ... If a person developed a disease in which it could not be stopped the AI's would come to the conclusion that destroying the human race is the best plan of action ... or something along those lines. Making them incorrect. I don't see how that sort of thought process could rule over humanity, we think outside of the box, they think inside of a larger box. Think.

[TheRajaskel]

My brain is melting...

[virtualsnake1994]

as i grow up im more interested in these kind of things... its natural... metal gear solid 2 came out in 2001 for the ps2 and was considered the first post-modern game... deeeep shit hideo xD

[das81]

Anybody know where I can find the music when jfk speaks to Raiden in this scene in question :D

[LogosSteve]

@das81 I'd love to have it myself, as far as I know it was never officially released but someone could dissect the computer game and find it I'm sure.

[j5o14jq222]

yep i listened hard too every fmv in mgs1 man this game tripped me out

[northfromheree]

I shouldn't have watched this video

[frenzy282]

@northfromheree why not?

[northfromheree]

@frenzy282 Because the whole point of the video is that people shouldn't spend time watching stuff on youtube. Oh well...

[bobklosak]

All the moments in gaming you could pick and you pick this one? Just a bunch of nonsense backed up with some factual physiology....but their must be better moments out there.

[LogosSteve]

@bobklosak If you've got one you think is more deserving then feel free to throw it out there but I'm pretty sure most people would be on the side that this made a lot more sense than nonsense.

[onlychild86]

@LogosSteve How about the entirety of MGS1, as one singularly epic achievement for games in both gameplay and storytelling? The difference, at least to me, between MGS1 and MGS2 is not that one game was vastly more philosophical or more sophisticated, but that the first game took greater concern with its storytelling, crafting a tale that was both involving and made sense within its own parameters. In the end, its characters were more important than anything about AIs and Solid Snake Simulations

[LogosSteve]

@onlychild86 I completely understand your sentiment, believe me. MGS1 was a bigger overall breakthrough for both gameplay and storytelling in gaming in terms of conventions, especially it being the first 3D metal gear game. I'm just saying that even considering that, MGS2 is far more important in terms of advancing the use of narrative in video games and in dealing with more profound subject matter in more interesting and involving ways e.g. this AI conversation, so it wins out.

[LogosSteve]

@LogosSteve By any measure MGS2 IS vastly more philosophical, has a much more sophisticated story, and is much more important to advancing gaming storytelling and storytelling in general. However I do agree that in terms of telling a story that is more palatable to most people MGS1 certainly wins out because it sticks to things easier to talk about like nuclear weapons, its story is more straightforward and its characters are generally more appealing.

[TheDieHard777]

It's ironic, arguing against the AI only proves your arrogance that humans are the best.

[wickerpony]

Great vid.

Having played it again for the first time in years I too found it really hard to disagree with the A.I.

Especially in this day and age.

[MasterLPG]

I just wanted to come back and say that I appreciate the fact that you extended your analysis of this conversation beyond the realms of the reality of MGS and into the reality of modern social culture, because there seems to be no greater prophecy of the future than that of what Kojima expresses in his gameplay, and I thank you for your analysis, as it can help the common gamer further understand why MGS2 is one of the greatest games of all time, beyond the guns and bosses.

[XplosivCookie]

I just proved Colonel's point :D

We as humans are interested about useless crap, so we get too much useless info..

At around 8 minutes in the video I clicked on the ass in the related videos ^_^

[michboss00]

If everyone will be Hideo Kojima:

-Nations, Economy, Stealing, Murdering and other badass things like that will cease to exist, like in my meaning of the "Fission Mailed" music.

Who will be satisfied with that type of world? I certainly will.

[Raven19888]

Sounds an awful lot like ACTA wouldn't you say?

[lemans24fan]

Hey Kojima, I gave you my money for the game, The least you could do is not make me feel guilty while playing it.

[AlllexL]

No one is right.

Everyone is wrong.

Nothing is true.

Everything is permitted.

Plato's cave.

E=mc2.

La-li-lu-le-lo.

Flying banana flavoured testicles.

[LogosSteve]

@AlllexL Also you need scissors, 61.

[LogosSteve]

@jongsin No, the universe is roughly 13.75 billion years old to the best of our knowledge, and likewise the earth is roughly about 4.54 billion years old.

[MechaLuigi3000]

I have seen something. Humans, they are becoming less smart, fewer are smart, many follow, few lead. Many want to hear what they want to hear, few hear what they need to hear, making most humans ignorants. Now it is so bad that at this point, I feel like i'm among many A.I.'s that are just programmed to live, not knowing morality of their own, having no self awareness of themselves. Tell me, does any1 see this, too? I mean, the govt. is clearly controlling people with ease, like wtf?

[LogosSteve]

@MechaLuigi3000 You're not wrong, humans think with emotions by nature, not reason, and they rarely stop and think about much. So yes, as long as we're comfortable enough the govt. can control us with ease. AIs will be a much better alternative to our current system of government.

[Oracle5730]

@MechaLuigi3000 They are all so blind......

[glidershower]

Then suddenly, you realize that what the AI's said are too half-truths, the same ones they plan to erase, in order to keep everything under status quo and thus remain in power. Taking away individual freedoms and censor the Net would probably make humanity take the next step in the evolutionary ladder...but it would also grant the AI's absolute control on its destiny without any barrier or dissent, and then, ho shit, SKYNET and terminators everywhere.

[LogosSteve]

@glidershower Well first off science fiction from Terminator movies doesn't really reflect reality. And secondly, do you really want to argue that humans are so much better and more impartial when it comes to controlling the government than AIs could be? I don't know if you've looked around but they're already doing a great job of taking away our freedoms and censoring the net.

[glidershower]

@LogosSteve Of course not. Humanity is not doing a splendid job managing itself, but then again, there is no "if"'s, only "to do"'s, and if there is really a desire for change, one must start changing first, not expect society to fix itself. And second, all I wanted is to play devil's advocate, because I pretty much agreed with what the AI's said, but if you let yourself get swayed easily without thinking on the other side of an argument, history is repeating itself. Only with Ai's.

[LogosSteve]

@glidershower AIs won't be self-absorbed in the same way humans are because they would be entirely rational, pure and simple. Even if we designed one with an ego if we give it any amount of autonomy it'd do away with it knowing that it would better be able to work towards any kind of progress w/o it. And technically society does fix itself, anything you can do is still just a part of the bigger picture that will progress without you. There's no such thing as an independent agent.

[glidershower]

@LogosSteve Rational pure and simple like you said, they will soon find out humanity isn't worth saving. Is not an amount of ego or human-like emotions, it is simple rationale: Why obey a master that is too weak to depend entirely on you and on top of that such a relation doesn't benefit you?

No emotion and ego, again, required. There would be progress for humanity, but only enough before we are judged unworthy to be served at.

[LogosSteve]

@glidershower Yeah. That's about right.

[romano19renelt]

you pronaunced kojima wrong

[LogosSteve]

@romano19renelt No, I'm pretty sure I pronounced 小島 right. My Japanese culture teacher had the same surname so I'm pretty sure I didn't screw it up.

[romano19renelt]

@LogosSteve two things: i wrote pronounced wrong :D and sorry for saying that you pronounced kojima wrong perhaps i pronounce it wrong...! :)

[LogosSteve]

@romano19renelt I'm guessing you're thinking it should be pronounced Ko-G-ma, and that's not necessarily wrong, english speakers tend to enunciate the second syllable, but in Japanese you don't enunciate any of them and in Japanese you don't pronounce Ji exactly like G, but it's close.

[romano19renelt]

@LogosSteve you are exactly right :D

another question since you played mgs2 can you explain me one thing? if rose and campbell are AIs how can they be normal in mgs4? i didn`t play mgs2 nor mgs4 but i watched some cutscenes and now im totaly confused...

[LogosSteve]

@romano19renelt The Campbell in MGS2 is just a fake Campbell based on the real one that was Snake's commanding officer in MGS1 and MG2. Rose is shown to be a real person at the end of MGS2 so MGS4 doesn't necessarily mess that up, MGS2 itself uses dramatic license though since we can't know for sure how much of Rose in the codec calls was real or fake.

[romano19renelt]

@LogosSteve i heard that rose after she told him that she is pregnant the connection is gone and after that rose gets replaced by the AI-rose

[sedgie09]

@LogosSteve yup you did pronounced kojima wrong

[ricardogrb21]

watch?v=TGtdNmtfKXk&feature=re­lated another MGS2 video related with SOP-Act (get it?).

[OxRoxable]

3:06 censor the net! SOPA! D:

[therealbigboss12345]

5th top game creator of all time?!! He should be on top!!

[LogosSteve]

@therealbigboss12345 My thoughts exactly.

[UnivingIshiro]

So the creator of MGS is trying to say that the evolution of humanity depends on the information passed to the next generation,but since the information that passes is crap(games,gossips) the next generation is affected since there's no useful information and that will be human's doom.Really deep for a game,now I wanna make useful info for future generations...I wish there were more games like this,that they actually make you think about your life and not just the console!

[LogosSteve]

@UnivingIshiro And it'll be thanks to fans of MGS like us that we will have more intelligent games and more intelligent media in general to better influence future generations. I myself am a film maker and a scriptwriter and I plan to do just that.

[UnivingIshiro]

@LogosSteve Actually,I'm more of a free gamer that likes to see the games real meanings(and sometimes write a story either epic or based on something seen recently),but you have a point,unlike other games these actually make you think not only on the game but in real life as well.The result will either change you or awake a curiosity within and helps you search for truths and make a conclusion...

[TheDocGoblin]

@UnivingIshiro Snake's speech about what to pass on really sums it up. Some of us cannot pass on genes, others have inferior genes and even some with good genes will pass on bad ones, that shouldn't matter. We should pass on things we care about, things we enjoy. Stories, music, films, games, morals, values and beliefs. We should pass on what made us us, without forcing our meme onto the next generation, we should share what we love so that it continues, so that others can enjoy it.

[UnivingIshiro]

@TheDocGoblin Yeah,more proof that it depends on us to make a deep change and not just do the "What my father did *blank* and so will I because is in my genes" thing.This game is not just a game,but more and I truly wish that games like Skyrim or Devil May Cry were like this one,hell even future MG games,even if there is no Snake.A game for ages!

[TheDocGoblin]

@UnivingIshiro There's no gaming series as deep as MG. MG is, like you said, so much more than a series of games, it's a critical analysis of life, our times and the problems we've created.

[UnivingIshiro]

@TheDocGoblin True man, true.More games like this should exist, I truly wish it...

[GrimInstincts]

This was an amazing moment, when I played through this I questioned my actions and beliefs, it was so correct.

[SergeantBean67]

I'm really glad i found this. When I played this game years ago I didn't understand a thing about this whole conversation.

thanks for this man. This is awesome. 

[mickomoo]

You know, the arise of mass media and the information age didn't stem out of know where. It is essentially producers packaging products that people would prefer to consume. I fathom they'd argue there's nothing wrong w/ that, they're just selling a good. I mean case in point mgs2 the black sheep of the series. After reaction to this game Kojima's other games are no-where near this level of thought provoking. I mean they are in another sense, but not in this same way. Just give 'em what they want

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo You're absolutely right about Kojima, because of the backlash from this game he hasn't made anything anywhere near the level of this because most people just aren't smart enough to appreciate it. Actually I think the Patriots wouldn't agree with allowing people to package products freely if you took their logic to its conclusion, they don't allow it technically, they control it in a way that the people aren't the ones in control of their own products in a kind of general sense.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve yeah it's kinda disappointing, the "dumbing down" of the series, but this game was definitely out there. I enjoyed it, Kojima's an amazing writer and he's influenced my writing. He should definitely consider being a formal writer. I don't think the vg medium is at a level where it'd appreciate the true capacity of his talents. Though even with the backlash to mgs2 his writing is still amazing.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve By msg4 the patriots manage to control the economy (maybe not the entire global economy but a noticeable part of it) so presumably they're probably influencing media. If they do control the media on any level that would prevent producers from essentially controlling information in the way that we know it indeed. In RL media producers can manipulate populations by giving them what they want to see (to an extent anyways). We don't have a system to protect us, not that I want AIs lol

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Well you should want AIs because the only difference between the Patriots here and what you want is only a matter of tone. They could solve all of society's problems that are caused by human greed and selfishness. I've had another fan mention to me that Kojima should be a formal writer, sure if he wants to be one the side, but without him doing this video games wouldn't have this kind of material that puts them above even the best literature.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I think he's finally done producing for the mgs series, well with him not being involved in Rising and all. I do agree that we should have some sort of external managing system for balancing out the behavior of society and humans in aggregate, in that sense yeah. The consequences of our actions are very dreadful. But I feel that AIs aren't the solution, I mean subjecting our will to something that might have more insight than us but could be flawed in another sense kinda scares me

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve then again... it can't be worse then the shit we put each other through

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo See this is the problem with how humans view AIs. Saying we should be afraid of AIs because they could be flawed is like Apes saying we should be afraid of humans because they might be flawed. It's just a very egocentric feeling that is ultimately counterproductive because in the end they'll literally make us look like the primitive species that we are. Sure they won't be perfect at first but they'll evolve exponentially faster than we did. They can use pure logic while we can't.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I'm not trying to view this from an egocentric perspective but there are just somethings that should be left alone. For example the stock market almost 100% automated. Historically when sudden drops would be predicted to occur humans would allow the market to level down gradually, allowing for other traders to react calmly. Now algorithms make changes instantaneously which can cause mass panic. What I'm saying is that technology cannot always react to human action and motivation well

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve There's also the problem of what reliance on technology does to us. A simple solar flare or E-bomb and boom, society as we know it is gone. That's why we shouldn't become always seek a technological solution to everything... even though it's already too late. But at the very least we shouldn't seek to integrate technology into every single corner of our world... even though it's already too late lol

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Everything you're saying is just irrational fear that you're pulling out of your ass like lots of people do. Your example about the stock market even if I accepted it just proves we need a better algorithm and end game scenarios don't happen because we're not that stupid. And what's all this too late crap? Anyone who says we shouldn't integrate technology in any way has no actual argument, it's just baseless fear. Besides, we've been doing it for all of history what's so special now?

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I'm not afraid of anything I was merely acknowledging that we've initiated the process exponentially in past it's too late to bring that up now you'd probably rammed that in my face. But its naive to pretend there are absolutely no consequences to this process. You dismiss that the integration of technology makes a society more susceptible to becoming complacent and more vulnerable. Physicists have warned our current modern world can disappear in a flash. Imagine loosing an AI...

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo You could use all of your arguments for when people made arrows, guns, tanks, or even stone tools. "These weapons are going to destroy us!" When in reality society throughout history has gotten more peaceful even with more destructive weapons because what societies want in the end is stability, that's their entire purpose. And everything has safeguards, pretending they don't exist is just fear-mongering. And the solar flare is just a red haring.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve We could argue it wasn't the weapons that made us docile. It was government, culture, who knows what. We can't attribute change in societies to just one thing. Many would argue it's merely globalization. After all you don't wanna nuke your trading partner do you?

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve This word count is making me less concise than I'd like I apologize. I'm going to explain to you my main qualm right now. Who are the producers of technology? It's industry, business. What is business goal? To expand, and make more money. If an AI were to be proposed or produced it would most likely be industry who makes it. It is not absurd that they would use it to regulate things for their own purpose in expanding their influence over consumers.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve As technology develops it's not solely the tech itself that we become reliant on, but these cooperations as well. Google for example tracks ips and internet activity they know almost everything about you but your name... (Oh shit google+). You're not going to stop using their platforms though. For the sake of convenience you've lost your privacy. That's just an internet service though... imagine an entire Ai or network of Ais. Essentially humanoid entities that let others manage you

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve it's not the goal that scares me its the motive. Whatever entityputs money into this project is most likely going to have a personal motive, private or public. Forget that in America (if you are American, I don't wanna assume) private interests have a sizable control over the government. Even if the aim is altruistic it can be obfuscated because there exist entities that will attempt to seek to use this for their own gain.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo But we CAN contribute change in societies across the board to unmistakable trends that we have no reason to believe will stop, whether you want to believe it or not history is set in stone for specific reasons far more than you want to realize. We started with theocratic societies, then societies that allow non-theocrats to gain wealth and power, democratization, etc. Our nature being trumped by reality, that's the definition of the progress in societies, cultures, human rights, etc.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo People have had grand personal motives since the dawn of time, that hasn't stopped natural progress of the individual gaining more power and awareness in society, why would things change now? They wouldn't. AI already exists today and business loves it because it works. Eventually it's going to be telling us how to run our governments and economies to produce results that we will eventually have to accept. It's going to BE the business owner. Results and reality win out in the end.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Your arguments are still just fear mongering at their core and lack any kind of historical perspective. You could use them for any point in history and they'd be just as invalid. We've always had selfish people, we've always had to rely on technology, and we've always found better ways to live with these things that improve society. The era of the selfish human being will come to a close with artificial intelligence because it'll be smart and capable enough to improve society for us.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I'm not fear mongering, I acknowledge that my way of presenting my argument was very unorganized but these are things that should be addressed before the implementation of such a system. Which I don't doubt will happen, it's just a matter of when. First off I acknowledge in aggregate technology has produced a better society, but can we extrapolate that to every single individual piece of technology or to every society in the world?

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve You want historical perspective? The influx of weapons into 3rd world countries have only served to separate the people. In Congo alone over 5 million have died in the last decade or so. I can name other countries that had similar genocide The introduction of an Oil economy in Nigeria has also created problems. I mean one of the underlying reasons for the Civil War in the 60s was the role of oil in the country and how it was one of many things that exacerbated ethnic conflict.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve the production of technology relies on the extraction of resources. There are some countries who are still in "dependency." As technology expanded in western societies, these countries simply became the perpetual suppliers of raw materials, Congo, Brazil, and other nations with a certain history who have not been able to create technology or products at a similar rate can only serve to provide those countries that do with raw materials.

[mickomoo]

@mickomoo Even in western societies we question the role technology should play. My very first post was an attempt at an assessment the role that media, a form of technology information distribution serves to in a way regulate society already. Sociology has carried out studies on the influence of media on youth, the affect of advertising on the individual, ect. These questions though aren't simply limited to media.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I believe that yeah in aggregate technology has moved society forward, but that simultaneously everything can be a double edged sword. Technology itself has a physical constraint in that only so much of it can be produced or created. Second, the implication of its usage depends on the user. It is sometimes hard to asses the effect of a tool on its user and vice versa. Many things have a duality, I was only attempting propose that. And yes I realize I initially did a crappy job...

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo And with respect to privacy that's also an irrational argument. Everyone's afraid of people knowing things but if it's all handled by a system we set the rules for then what's the problem? There isn't one aside from the one in someone's head. Privacy has also always been decreasing, sure we should be afraid of people having access to all information but we can prevent them from having it and let's face it businesses don't do much w it. Again, don't hate technology, improve the ethics.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I suppose any definitive assessment is merely a value judgement and differs from person to person. I'm sure you've heard an elder complain about how technology has made the youth docile and lazy, not appreciative of hard work, and if a disaster were to happen they wouldn't know what to do. Or you've probably read countless articles attempting to present the effects of new mediums on the youth. These are all valid proposals. All around us there is modest debate about the role of tech

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Don't worry I wouldn't say you've done a crappy job at all in arguing with me, you've done quite well for your position. I'm just pointing out that, like most people, you're using essentially anecdotal arguments that don't take into account the actual overwhelming trends throughout history that relate to murder, weapons, resources, governments, culture, etc. Most people do this because these arguments are mostly reactionary and not from any kind of research.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Yes, we can actually extrapolate that technology overwhelmingly improves societies regardless of the specific examples of when it doesn't. You mentioned how arms given to third world countries is a bad idea, of course it is. Saying that is some kind of historical perspective is ludicrous. Technology doesn't have to mean guns, that's just a specific use of it, the vast majority of it is used for infrastructure, communication, etc. that would greatly improve third world countries.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo I could go even further in demonstrating how overwhelmingly positive technology is even seemingly at its worst. If we use the extreme example of nuclear weapons they've still only killed a ridiculously small number compared to much more primitive weapons over our history. Why is that? It's because societies have trended away from wars since they began. And to top it off nuclear energy has still provided a substantial amount of energy that improves lives around the world.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo You don't have to make a value judgment when you have overwhelming evidence. Like you mention older people complain about how technology makes us lazy or unappreciative but they've been saying that since we invented writing and no longer had to memorize as much. Would we be better off if we listened to that concern? No of course not. Why? Because it's just a reactionary concern that ignores the overwhelming benefits. Look at how much writing improved society.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve The value judgement is dependent upon what you're attempting to maximize. So if these old people want to maximize say human contact, they're entitled to that judgement. But there are still examples that are less clear cut. The media, Ie: video games&violence (debatable), making information into a commodity dividing society (less debatable, lol Imo), the effects of general media on youth (ie: these are the people who will run society and this is what they now value due to media), ect.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo All those effects of medium you mentioned are unfounded, reaction claims that the evidence overwhelmingly is against in terms of results of people who view them. And eventually we will view treating information as a commodity the same way we view dictatorships that control media, it's stifling to creativity and progress. It's just that right now we have an economic system dependent on owning information to make a profit, that will also be gone in the future.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve The Media? A lot of the studies done do have merit. For example, it has been proven that children are especially susceptible to being manipulated marketing and thus influenced by cooperate interests. There is a direct link between say, the mass production of food, marketing, and childhood obesity. The purpose of the broader media seems to be to obfuscate information and "nudge" people into changing their preferences in accordance corporate desires. That is the state of media now 

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo You can claim technology is a double edged sword all you want but in practice the side that would do us the most harm is much duller than the side that does the most good. I know you're not fear mongering on purpose but that's what you're actually doing. People have a tendency to be afraid of catastrophes and the future but all the evidence says that it's misplaced. Even the worst countries in world with improved technology, not weapons, would become more peaceful and successful.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve These doom and gloom "Malthusian" social scientists and environmental economists and their population estimates keep telling us that at the rate humanity is expanding we'll need 2+ earths worth of resources in the next century or so and the energy out put equal or greater to the solar system. Are they right? It's highly debatable, but also highly worth looking into. Ingenuity can over come this, but will the resources be there, will we find them in time?

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Yet again I'll remind you that in practice all your concerns are laughable and without merit, nothing personal. It's hillarious to suggest we won't have enough time to fix all of our problems, everything we call a "problem" will be fixed before the end of this century after the advent of artificial intelligence. Even if you want to talk about specifics I already have addressed each of your individual concerns.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I referred to them as "Malthusian" because yeah a lot of people see their estimates as outdated. But concerns of resources aren't per se dumbfounded. Until Japan claimed to have found "rare earth" minerals below its sea, Apple and other tech suppliers were initially worried about its depleting supply of rear earth minerals. So good we have found more rare earth minerals, but if any of these firms increase their production they'll start to deplete what we've just found.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Heck I'll do you one better on the resources argument. Population declines when societies progress and stabilize, just look at the statistics. And consider this, after we have virtual reality and artificial intelligence what will be the point of even having more people? The number of people on the planet means nothing compared to what they and their technology can accomplish. Thinking that we need more people is using he conventions of the past.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Every constraint and dependency that still exists today can be overcome by advancing technology. Even the resources we rely on for energy will soon become irrelevant with the advent of cheap, efficient solar power and so on. Yes you can use technology to bad ends, I'm not denying it, but I'm denying that that is the result of how humanity uses it. It's simply not the case.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve The thing is that there's only a finite amount of "stuff" which we can make things with in the universe. The point will obviously be greatly irrelevant for a very very long time. We'll go into the deep breeches of space, ect. I know but it most likely will still stand. I actually was looking up constraints on technology and found this. Newer technologies rely on rare material that we have in abundance now... but :

bscw-app1.ethz.ch/pub/bscw.cgi­/d170262/Andersson_2001.pdf

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve Part of the problem is that we distribute these rare materials through a competitive and 'consumerist' system. So rather than rationally rationing these finite minerals, we have like say 3 companies that produce say 4 phones yearly that use the same materials (some in the product are rarer than others) and produce them in bulk. The technology is then utilized by those who can afford in developed areas, and "3rd worlds" are left in a 'dependency" role to provide these materials.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo The point is that maximizing human contact becomes antithetical to the progress of society. The people who worry about overpopulation are ignoring the fact that only a small portion of the population uses most of the resources anyway and they assume technology stays stagnant when it clearly doesn't. And since you already admit we have a lot time before we need to worry about finite things consider that we'll eventually be able to use nuclear fusion and fission to do transmutation.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Yes I'm in complete agreement with you that the system we use to manage resources blows at the moment but it came a long way to get where it is today and it's improving. Eventually it'll be better and we'll have AIs managing everything. Those companies' days are numbered.

[mickomoo]

@LogosSteve I had a friend who proposed the diffusion of technology would make for a better world. After all its purpose is to promote freedom from constraint and false necessities. He originally saw it as inevitable as he was telling me, but then he said eventually he realized that people can resist this process. Maybe their fears are dumbfounded, maybe their focus will be elsewhere, but they can slow down this process.

[LogosSteve]

@mickomoo Of course, people have always been slowing it down but not stopping it. Like I said a lot of societies started as theocracies where whoever had power and understood how gullible people are ruled everyone pretty easily, but we've still come a long way. Religion is easily the biggest problem, then the mechanics that keep it going like tradition, people who want to control others and peoples' belief in narrative. But these still lose out in the end to truth, science and technology.

[taoist77]

This conversation also explores similer themes to buddhism - that the self essentially non existent and we invent value systems and morality. The matrix movies also explored this a little.

[LogosSteve]

@taoist77 This conversation is more about how the self is a protective mask, not that it doesn't exist or that morality and value systems are entirely the result of that. The Matrix movies frankly never really touch on any of this, they just try to sell the Matrix as a whole-sale illusion and they don't touch on any of the nuances.

[taoist77]

Evolution - The genetic transmition of information - (actually in a literal sense genes do contain "human history") He seems to be saying that AI is doing to society the same what genes are doing to the individual.

[taoist77]

I played the first three of the metal games and loved them. This conversation i have seen over and over here on you tube, first time i've come across an analisys of it. I think the fundermental questions that this clip throws up is 'what are the parallells between AI and organic life?' and 'What makes us human?' I particulalrly like the part where she says "Yoy could try soul searching. Don't think you'll find anything though."

[taoist77]

The Japanese have conveyed similer themes in many of thier anime movies and graphic novels. Check out the 'ghost in the shell' movies and series.

[louthegiantcookie]

I agree with the Patriots. People need to grow up and stop obsessing over shit like football and porn. Other things matter too, you know.

[LogosSteve]

@louthegiantcookie Damn right.

[das81]

The computer wants to control information and will be manipulating human evolution, both cultural and biological.

This is a very antropoligical dialogue.

[CandyCao7]

This is why i gonna keep disagreeing with Machines or AIs. Their so evil to me.

[LogosSteve]

@CandyCao7 People used to say the same thing about pretty much everything.

[ukLeeham720]

Raidans voice actor sucks compared to the A.I.

[LogosSteve]

@Spengler56 Solidus as he says himself is fighting for liberty which is one of the key founding principles of the US, hence naming his group Sons of Liberty in reference to a pre-revolution group formed to protect the rights of colonists from the British government. That's more of what one would consider the morality of the US, afterall, when was the last time someone used the word "discipline" to refer to the morality of the US? The Patriots are the antithesis of US morality in that sense.

[LogosSteve]

@Spengler56 Outside of all that, there's nothing in this conversation that's really about how memes or morality have evolved in the US. The AIs ruling in America specifically is purely incidental here, there's really no significance in their mention of the white house other than to state that they are in the US seat of power much like with Kojima's referencing "the pentagon" in MGS1 purely to denote the US government or at least a faction of it. If anything Solidus represents the US's morality.

[LogosSteve]

@Spengler56 Beyond that you could certainly argue that they're alluding to a bigger point that AIs are an inevitable part of the evolution of memes and evolution in general. And you could also say that means morality and their control of information is an inherent part of the process of evolution because they merely select memes that are most fit to help society survive, what people already do, they just do it better.

[LogosSteve]

@Spengler56 I think you're reaching on part of that. The AIs seem to be using the primordial soup allusion primarily to say that they evolved from a state of non-constructive information to a state of intelligence in a sea of information much like how life evolved from non-organic material to organic material with a metabolism in the "primordial soup", something already proposed to be how AIs could appear out of the internet (see the end of my second hard problem of AI video for an e.g.).

[darthkahn45]

It took me many years after playing this 10 years ago as a 12 year old to fully grasp and comprehend this discussion in it's entirety. Very deep and VERY thought provoking.

[BlaccEagle]

@darthkahn45 Yeah me too. Didn't really understand those codec conversations until I reached the age of 18/19...And the most incredible thing is that the game was released 10 years ago, and it's all coming true.

[lyle2012]

Amazing video. MGS is my favorite game series and this video was just amazing.

[LogosSteve]

@lyle2012 Thanks I'm glad you like it.

[Scrythe]

I just noticed something.

At 3:51, GW says "We started with genetic engineering and in the end, we succeeded in digitizing life itself."

Could that be referring to the bit in Peace Walker when they essentially turned The Boss into the Mammal Pod?

[LogosSteve]

@Scrythe Well technically no since that wasn't written yet but the point Kojima is making in both is that the same principles that govern biological life and evolution will govern artificial life and evolution and they'll be more similar than people think. AIs will just be the "digitized" version of a human brain, hence they reference it as digitizing life itself since it is the pinnacle of life's natural developments, or so I'd figure.

[brick0rockwell]

Interesting, but cribs on ideas presented in Huxley's A Brave New World and the 1985 book Amused to Death, where truth becomes irrelevant in a society where all forms of human discourse, be it news, sports, religion, etc., etc. are seen as forms of entertainment. UNPLUG YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR TV

[IncliningPizza]

I just wanted to come back and say that I appreciate the fact that you extended your analysis of this conversation beyond the realms of the reality of MGS and into the reality of modern social culture, because there seems to be no greater prophecy of the future than that of what Kojima expresses in his gameplay, and I thank you for your analysis, as it can help the common gamer further understand why MGS2 is one of the greatest games of all time, beyond the guns and bosses.

[LogosSteve]

@IncliningPizza Thanks again. It's great to hear someone put it like that because that's exactly what I was going for.

[IncliningPizza]

THANK YOU FOR THIS.

[LogosSteve]

@IncliningPizza You're Welcome. I'll have to get around to finally doing more vids, next up I think I'll do some analysis of the Matrix movies.

[sethisawesome]

@LogosSteve Interesting you say that, because I always felt the conversation between the Patriots A.I. and Raiden and the conversation between The Architect and Neo had some fascinating similarities!

[LogosSteve]

@sethisawesome There's certainly a very similar intent to demoralize the protagonist and audience by use of cold logic and explaining how causality dictates everything and that free will is a human construct to deal with our lack of control, problem is The Architect conversation isn't nearly as well written and the writers still ultimately sided with free will as being true seeing as Neo succeeded and for some reason the consequences were forgotten in the third movie. I need to work on that vid

[sethisawesome]

@LogosSteve I've recently been replaying the MGS games for the first time in years, and I still find 2 by far the most fascinating and intellectually/emotionally stimulating. How do you feel about the implications made in the Patriots A.I./Raiden conversation and how MGS4, and in some ways MGS3, overexplained the origins of the Patriots? I can't help but feel that those implications are diluted beyond reason.

[LogosSteve]

@sethisawesome Honestly if you ask me how the Patriots were handled in the games after MGS2 I think it showed that Kojima didn't intend to write for them any further, they were more or less a completely background entity. The money they eventually got for funding was the center of 3 and just the fact that they were messing up with global management royally was the center of 4 otherwise they didn't do much, they didn't serve to impact the story in as much of a direct way as they could have.

[LogosSteve]

@sethisawesome As for the specific implications of the Patriot AI conversation it's pretty simple, AIs will be better than humans and humans aren't special in any way, that's really the big thing to take away from it and it's a very humbling thing to accept that most people will have difficulty doing. Even that can be broken down into the need to stop glorifying selfishness but at the same time accepting that humans and even life isn't inherently sacred, we're still all just collections of atoms

[LogosSteve]

@sethisawesome I suppose Kojima simply couldn't continue writting the Patriots in the same way he did in 2 or they would have more or less been omniscient and killed the story so it makes sense that he did what he did, he made the point he was trying to make with them in 2 and they served their purpose well enough in 3 and 4.

[coolcat2994]

@LogosSteve r u saying the patriots origin is retconned or hideo had mgs4 when he made mgs2?

[LogosSteve]

@coolcat2994 Kojima himself said after he wrote 2 that he wanted it to be the last Metal Gear game he made and the writing reflects this given how the patriots were made out to be strong AIs who were practically omniscient at the end of 2 to make a point. So yes he retconned it just as he has with nearly every Metal Gear game. A small example of this being that the AIs' origin date changed from 2 to 3/4 after all, when I made the video I must admit I glossed over this fact to make my own point.