@TheMoonliteshadow I don't have to be a doctor to tell someone that they are not a doctor. All I have to know is what it takes to be a doctor to tell if someone is a doctor or not. You are not of the Wica because you have not been initiated. I know that initiation is a factor because I have done the research to know what it takes to be of the Wica.
@TheMoonliteshadow Actually what I've stated is historic fact; you're the one denying what academic has proven time and time again. You'll just continue to parade around with a false title that have not earned, how is that fair? You are still a witch, yes, but of the Wica you are not.
you spelt wicca wrong. its "wicca" not wica. Even though i do not agree with your views, i do respect your opinion.. if the Goddess and God calls to a certain person, and he/she opens their arms to her and embraces her ways, arnt they by nature wiccan? please do not misunderstand, i am not offended in the slightest. (: i enjoyed your video. ill just say this, "you say only a wiccan can make a wiccan i say only the goddess and god can make a wiccan, who is better qualified?"
@TheMoonliteshadow Actually I spelt Wica correctly as it was originally spelt "Wica". The extra C was added later. "Wicca" is accurately pronounced "Witcha". Furthermore, in Wica one is being initiated by the Lord and Lady of the British Isles. If the Lord and Lady of the British Isles approach you, they would tell you what to do as that is what they set down to Gardner in HIS initiation. How do you know if the god and goddess that is contacted you are the gods of the Wica?
@TwistingWays ......uh huh, and where do you get your source of information may i ask? I feel it in my heart. the same way i know i have brown hair or brown eyes, i see it. i see them in my eyes. the same way you know its the Goddess and God that have contacted YOU. no magick or symbol or someone telling whether or not they have contact makes it true. if you dont feel it in your heart, you just havent made the connection yet.
@TheMoonliteshadow Once again people assume that I am of the Wica when I have not stated anything saying so! Gardner, you know the founder of the witch cult you are trying to be a part of? Gerald Gardner wrote down what Wica is. There are hundreds of articles, scholarly articles mind, that tell the world what Wica is. There are lineaged Coveners that I have spoken to that have told me what Wica is. Your gods are not the Lord and Lady of the British Isles, you are not Wica.
Also, I have noticed a trend, especially here on Youtube, VERY young, barely teen kids saying they are Wiccan. So, I think that a lot of people just claim to be Wiccan without being initiated, and with out years of studying and knowledge. Also, can you give me your definition of a Fluffy please? Just curious. I'm not a wiccan, mind you, perhaps pagan, just learning and wanting to know the difference between all paths. :) Thanks
@CelticWillowMoon All of the Wicca are pagan, hun :) A fluffy is someone who makes boasting claims with no real evidence to back up what the fuck they are saying. They don't do the work. They could also be called "Read one book and call themselves a witch" people ;)
@CelticWillowMoon It depends on your definition of "organized religion". I know many of the Wica do not even call Wica a religion, per se. I would say it is more of an organized group, and together they push towards spiritual enlightenment through the Lord and Lady of the Isles.
I agree, although I do not stress this point to others and admitedly will call myself (wrongly I know) Wiccan in order to save myself from explaining what the hell I mean by "I am a Blue Star Wicca seeker." Or I will use the loose terms of Pagan and Occultist but even those get questions. (And I really don't feel like explaining myself to people who don't listen)
Also Deborah lipp is a fabules Wiccan author (gardinarian HPS)
You are talking about the craft and then you have to be initiated to know it but you don't have to become a witch to become a wiccan. The charge of the goddess state "There shall ye assemble,
Wicca is not meant to evolve? Wicca is a living, breathing tradition. If it does not evolve, if it doesn't adapt, it dies. Also: I have no idea where you got the idea that the BoS is "unalterable". Gardner himself kept changing the wording of the rituals, and so did each and every HPS from his coven - and their students, etc. It's the spirit of the family and the initiatory lineage that connects the Wicca, not dead words, or rituals rendered meaningless by mindless repetition!
Does Wicca promote being who you are, or do you get bonus points for trying to sound like a poor mans Patrick Stewart? FFS man, let your ideas ride the current on their own, you don't need a pretentious and obviously fake accent to float them.
You speak the truth, hopefully others will watch and understand all of this. The amount of material falsely labeled "Wicca" is out of control. It is very hard to find witchcraft/sorcery books that aren't written by "Wiccans".
I hope I didn't mess up my comments; I tried to break mine into two and if they got garbled I apologize. One thing I wanted you to clarify for me: your comments about Gardner and Valiente. As I understand it, HE was the one seeking publicity and exposing secrets, and SHE was the one who became concerned by his attention-seeking behavior (one of the reasons she left and took up with Roy Bowers.) She's one of my favourite authors; I don't consider her solely a Wiccan.
Thank you for pointing this out. I, too, shudder in horror when I come across people calling themselves "Christian Wiccans" or "Druid Wiccans" or just plain "Wiccan" after reading one book. I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a Witch, but I respect Gardner's religion and hate seeing it cheapened and dragged through the mud by people calling themselves "Wiccan" when they have no clue what they are talking about.
well i agree on this one.You asked one time my crest and family..im of the Wica from the Krause in Germany. Then to other countries. I am doing my history now and family crest. but Wicca I dont like to see it change.Or see people try to change it.
@TheWICCACHANNEL I did not say Family Crest, I said lineage, as in your lineage back to Gardner via cross-gender initiation. Wicca is a British religion, I have no record of any covens in Germany.
@TwistingWays from scottland to germany to england. the blood line runs this course. now krause is also english from the spelling krauss. its also of jewish decentas well. if you do know of he wica i do have some things to show and ask seeing part of your line is missing to some degree.but of the wica none the less. it may also shed some light on this as well.
@TheWICCACHANNEL When I say lineage I am not talking about blood lines! I am talking about initiation tracing its way back to Gerald Gardner. Are you initiated into a coven in which the High Priestess can trace her cross-gender initiation back to Gerald Gardner?
@TwistingWays i was thinking of before gardner seeing some things were never made public by the new forest. for his books. what of the pre gardner being new forest and their lineage in lines with their family of which is blood lines.
@TheWICCACHANNEL That is not Wicca. Gardner heard the word "wicca" used by the coven in which he was initiated. He used it publicly to refer to HIS religion, not THEIR religion or practice. Again there was no Wicca as Gardner created it before Gardner. It was merely an old word meaning to bend, nothing more. Gardner put an entire religion behind an old word.
Furthermore, the New Forest coven may or may not have existed.
@TwistingWays oh it does i agree gardner did do this.i was refering to our acnestors known as picts. and the term wicas. add me as friends and i will tell you more private things about what know..how did you end up in the states..
@TheWICCACHANNEL The Picts were NOT of the Wicca. Seax-Wica has NO connection what-so-ever with the Picts. If you want to send me messages, just send me messages, I do not need to add you as a friend.
I "ended up" in the states because I was born here.
@TheWICCACHANNEL Oh, stop with the pseudo-mystery clap trap, it's sad and a little insulting upon your person. The Gael have NOTHING to do with Gerald Gardner or Wicca. Wicca, for one, is derived from an Anglo-Saxon term NOT a Gaelic one. The Gael, for another, are a closed culture. In other words their gods are oathed to THEM, not to Gerald Gardner and his witch-cult.
lol i know what you mean but the funny thing is even those who go by the title witch still get caught up in wicca , wicca is the religion witchcraft is the practice of spells and the manipulation of specific forces to bring about change or in otherwords manifest their will aside from the acasional uses of medicinal herbs and countless other things of that nature .my friends mom calls me a wiccan and i tell her i am not a wiccan i am a witch with no rede to go by .
I must agree with you on many things here TW. I can't help feeling you have this knowledge by involvement.
I would question one thing however, Wicca not being progressive. Unfortunately, even some of Gardners P'ss's feel, that much was missing & so added their own bits. However, that said, I am twixt two minds in that, I also feel Wica is a creation of Gardner & I fail to see, how it can evolve to such paths as Christian Wicca, Startreck wicca, etc. !st vid ive seen looking forward to more.
@MelliferaSiren1 Oh but of course! That is how we get Alexadrian, Crescent and so on, but the point is that they keep the core that Gardner created. They may focus more on say...Kabbalah, or may have more Skyclad rituals or something, but the point is they keep the Core rituals of Wica and that is what makes it true Wica.
@TwistingWays Sory, I know nothing of Cresecent. I am in the UK, As an Alexandrain/Gardnerian, we dont really focus on Kabbalah so much, I presume you do in the States.
Many or most Garnderians/Alexandrians will do skyclad/naked.
So, I take it your not of the Wiccan tribe, what are you?
@MelliferaSiren1 This is just what I heard from a fellow Alexandrian, I am not sure if it is the same through out all places.
I am not of the Wica, no. I am a witch being that I practice a witchcraft that is inspired from historical witchcraft (also known as traditional witchcraft in some circles). I draw my practices from folklore in the Highlands regarding witchcraft as well as whatever else I pick up in the British Isles in reference to witchcraft.
A person's beliefs and practices do not change simply because of correct or incorrect terminology. Out of respect for the history of “true Wicca”, and mostly out of respect for those who associate with the original practices, I feel no problem in calling my spiritual path by some other name. However, I also see no harm in someone continuing to use the term if they are educated in the origin and the differences between their practice and that of the founders.
@edlkf5 Their -belief- is perfectly sound. If you listen I am not trying to change anyone's belief system merely the title that they give it because it is -wrong-. If they continue to use the term -knowing- that they are wrong then they are ignorant of its meaning.
@TwistingWays I did listen and I appreciated how you stated numerous times that the practice and beliefs are not wrong - only the term used is wrong. My comment was to explain any other viewers who cared to read it that I agree with your views expressed in the video, but to also show my understanding to those who practice under a term that they have grown attached to and made their own. I only meant to show that I saw both sides. I do respect history and tradition but more-so I respect people.
I realize this is an old video but I still loved it! I can totally appreciate what you're saying. I don't often comment on things, in fact this is only the 2nd time, but wanted to say I can see what you're saying and totally appreciate your point of view even if others don't. :)
Very refreshing. You're one of the few people in the neo-pagan community who actually "Get it". You're a voice in the wilderness, but you're not alone.
i do not agree with many things that you said. i dont think you have the right to say who is and is not a wiccan. there is a basis of wicca, however the thing i love about this religion is that wicca is a reigion that you can make your own. and the practices of Gardener were his traditions, and as i'm sure you may know there are many different traditions in wicca. i think everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this video is very misleading.
@TwistingWays listen, there's no need to act like that. i wasn't insulting you, but i just wanted to voice my opinion. The way i see it, is that you are saying that Gardnerian wicca is the only form of wicca. and yes it might be true that all forms of wicca must stem from Gardnerian wicca because it was the first, however things evolve, change. and it is not a fact that you are right; the argument that we are having is actualy very widespread throughout the wiccan communtiy.
@onewhiteeye That is precisely what I am saying, actually. Gardner created the religion. He founded it et cetera. What he says goes and what his followers say goes. The only reason it "evolved" is because a little idiot prick named Scott Cunningham decided to break his vows. And Raymond Buckland did the same exact thing. I know it is widespread, I have to deal with people like every day that have never picked up a scholarly book in their lives.
@TwistingWays I have only recently become aware of the existing controversy of the term "Wicca" and your video was rather insightful. After watching, I wanted to post a comment myself thanking you for sharing your knowledge; however, after reading your last response comment I was appauled. I had wrongly assumed you were an openminded and respectful individual. Your comment was cruel and distasteful specifically regarding the deceased. You have no right to judge anyone so harshly.
@edlkf5 What -are- you on about? Which comment are you referring to where I insult the Mighty Dead?
Ohhhh You mean when I insult the oathbreaker Scott Cunningham, heh heh. Well, it's the truth of things. Scott Cunningham wanted to change the core of Wica and the Gardnerian Elders that he was covening with did not agree (because he had barely bad 1st degree) and so they kicked him out. In retaliation he decided to tell everyone that they could be of the Wica if they followed these simple steps.
@edlkf5 Therefore, as someone who respects the faith of the Wica and such I have every right to reveal his betrayal along with the betrayal of the oathbreaker and racist Raymond Buckland. I will not be open minded about traitors, oathbreakers, rapists, racists, et cetera even if they are dead. Their souls have moved on, their minds (unfortunately) still remain in the dusty pages of their wretched books.
@TwistingWays Believe what and how you will but their "betrayal" was not to you. No one can stop you from saying what you think based on known truths or facts, but it seems to me that you are throwing uneducated and unproven accusations (rapist?) around in an attempt to defend your oddly strong hatred against others. Your condescending attitude makes your argument weak, and, your judgmental and narrow-minded views, in my eyes, poorly represent the principles behind any Pagan or Neo Pagan faith.
@edlkf5 I was merely giving examples of people that I am not open-minded about, I accused no one. Furthermore paganism is a not a "faith"; it is an umbrella term for -any- religion that is not one of the three Abrahamic faiths. Therefore there are rarely any combined principles between the pagan faiths. The only persons that I "hate" are Raymond Buckland for being a racist, Cunningham for being an oathbreaker, Silver Ravenwolf for being a lying condescending twat and Bush for being an idiot.
@TwistingWays Well, in my definition "faith" refers to a belief in something felt but not seen and, as of now, that is the term I use to describe my spiritual path. I mean no offense to you personally, but it seems to me that anyone with such hatred within them can be destructive as a public representative of any Pagan branch or Paganism as a whole. I was simply disturbed that, after so many years of breaking free of prejudices, it seems Pagans are now fighting amongst themselves.
@edlkf5 Yes it is true that there is much infighting. As I always say: We pagans are a silly bunch. I do not harbor true "hatred" for these people (except perhaps Sarah Palin....hm...) but I do have great pity for them and a strong dislike. As a pagan I do not feel obligated to "love" everyone and everything just because they, too, are pagan. What the above persons have done is broken their oaths and ruined something beautiful. I may disagree with a lot of the Wica but it is a culture.
@edlkf5 and a culture should not be destroyed by people that wish to take revenge or that are ignorant to it. Many people feel that Wicca should be "evolved" or something, but if those who think that do not know of even the origins of Wica and only accept the lies of some authors (thank you Silver Raventwat) then they have no right to even attempt to call themselves Wiccan. They should do their research and in a world where research is so easily corrupted it is hard, yes.
@edlkf5 Nothing comes out of nothing and that goes for laziness. I take no responsibility for anyone that thinks they way I do. I am my own person and my opinions are mine alone and not that of others. If others that are within my circles of communication become offended by what they say then that is their own problem. I do not speak for them I speak for myself. I do not speak for all pagans, I speak for myself.
Do you agree that the word Wicca was not really even used to describe the tradition until the 80's, except as a euphemism for mixed company? (It really isn't a significant factor in your argument, I'm just curious as to your findings.)
I agree- people tend to oversimplify and think that Witches and Wiccans are the same thing. I'm proud to be part of a more individualized, non hierarchical tradition of Neopagan Witchcraft. There's nothing wrong with either path, it's just annoying when people make untrue generalizations. :)
I like you.. this was incredibly helpful... I'm still trying to sort out my own beliefs and.. i fully intend to look into the reading you recommended.. and i also have to mention that i can't understand how anyone could fall into the Silver Ravenwolf trap.. do an ounce of research and anyone could find out how much of a fake she is, but I'm sure that an Ounce of research is far more than she did while writing her own books.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but upon studying the occult lore my research shows that the most prominent features are the Horned God and Serpent which are in clear contrast with what Christianity and others religious groups preach (e.g.devil and deceiver).
I was wondering whether these 2 features are discussed or represented in the Wica discipline...
Do they have any esoteric or occult characteristic within the Wica literature?
Ah I see what you mean. As far as I am aware Wicca is not a Luciferian cult and therefore does not worship a "Devil" Like god. Their god is a god of the Underworld and Death so there is that possibility of course. Gardner, however, I do not believe mentions serpent when referencing the Lord of the Isles.
Aside from the fact that I highly doubt witches would once again be burned at the stake (which didnt happen as much as some would want to believe) you do seem to give off a supercilious attitude. I mean no disrespect, and I hardly think that youre staid and stodgy. You are a very intelligent person.
I agree with what you had to say in this video, except I do not think they should call what they are doing Witchcraft either. Perhaps a better term for it would be Eclectic Neo-Paganism.
There is a difference between what they are doing and Witchcraft. Witchcraft to has its traditions which have been handed down within family lines from generation to generation. Witchcraft is not a free for all either. Although it does not hold to dogma, it does have traditions.
I am very much aware of the connection, thank you.
However, I'm uncertain you are, as you would know AC's O.T.O was entrusted into Gardner's care, and that one of his primary duties as guardian was to preserve the The Book of the Law.
Gardner would not have been granted use of the gnostic mass due to the laws secured in the book.
I'm in no way claiming you are wrong in your opinion to uphold the doctrine of Wicca, I am simply highlighting the ironic nature of that specific request.
I never said that what Gardner did was moralistic, but if one is going to try and follow the Wicca that Gardner set down (stolen or otherwise) one has is almost obligated to follow what is there (stolen or otherwise).
In a way, I would agree with you in the original term and its meaning. However, human words or merely word. if a rock is suddenly called mash, and a lot of people call it a mash, a new word has entered the language. example, coke meant only cocaine, until a drink came up. cock meant rooster until it began to be associated with genitals, etc. etc. words r just words. Many non-Wica r based on Gardnerian ideas. all have Lord & Lady, etc. Who cares about a small group of ppl?
Yes, they are based, but they are not Wicca. Wicca has specific gods. They are confusing Wicca with pagansism. Yes, Wiccans are pagans, but Wiccans have specific gods, pagans do not. Pagans are any persons not worshiping the Abrahamic god.
But- the word, Wicca, pronounced "Weetcha," and Wicce, pronounced "Weetch-ay" is an older term predating Gardner, and separate of the priesthood. This term was -interchangeable- with the term "Witch," definitely meaning "Wise One." It is true, New Forest may have adopted and taken upon themselves the name of "The Wica," lineaged and all, with only having one C, pronounced "Whicka."
There is historical, empirical, and ethnographic evidence that backs up these central claims.
My mother actually belongs to a Gardnerian coven. The High Priestess, however, seems quite open to "non-wiccans" as you describe them. she is 4th generation from gardner, meaning gardner initiated one who initiated one, who initiated her. also, the fastest growing religion in the world. when "truth" of this nature is so subjective to individual interpretation, the multitues when over in defining human vocabulary. i understand ur meaning, hto. in a way ur perfectly right.
However, even though it went against what gardner intended, it doesnt have to go the same way to be wicca. jesus' teachings r not even remotely similar to modern christian religion, but it is still called christian.
However, there are many Christians who are trying to reclaim the law of Agape. The difference is that Christianity is a orthodoxic faith (right belief). This belief is in Yeshua ben Yosef and accepting him as your lord and savior and the law of agape etc etc. Wicca is orthopraxic where one must practice it correctly in order to become of the Wicca.
If I may, respectfully, intercede with your "A Clairification of Wicca," I think the claim you stake is exceedingly well thought-out and precise.
My only problem, therein, is that Wicca, as it were, in Olde English tongue is not interchangeable to The Wica. The Wica (emphasis on only using one C), is a Priesthood, as you describe, with certain practices/rituals/gods that are secret, Oathbound information that is orally passed down to initiates. This much is true.
Yes, this is true, as well. I agree that it can be exceedingly difficult to differentiate between the two, but I feel this is paramount to understanding the history beyond and separate of New Forest descent. I am Wiccan in the sense of the Olde English term, not the Gardnerian Lineage. It's Traditional Witchcraft- simply a title for a "Wise One." Though I do find new-age Wiccans have the term completely wrong, and this is where I see your video as helpful. Very well researched. Well Done!
1st big dogma? That Wicca is anything more than a product of the 20th century. Gardner was brilliant, but not ancient. And his successors have used no less imagination than he did at Wicca's birth.
2nd dogma? That rigid rules and hierarchies are requisite.
I pity anyone who will buy into either of these dogmas. Just pity them. They've earned nothing more. Just pity.
That my two statements are statements of fact, not open to debate, make them valid. Any repetition is merely paraphrasing in hopes of penetrating past your prejudices.
My only objection is hearing suggestions that Wicca is anything more than a 20th century creation. It is not ancient, though Gardner drew on countless ancient sources to fill out his system. The great bulk of it, however, came from his imagination, and those of his successors. Just quit deluding yourself as to the ancient roots of Wicca. That's all I ask. Understand?'
Your fears are your only curse. Those fears seem to include a fear of questioning those who have come before you. That fear is clearly the worst and most dangerous, for is taints your potential for some profound spiritual growth.
The self-consciously pseudo-elite diction and pronunciation makes it difficult for me to take him seriously. Though, even if his speech weren't so affected, he's far too young for me to take seriously. I was studying these things long before he was born, and I'd never be so conceited as to pass myself off as an authority.
So in other words you are just going to ignore the truth of scholars that have studied this before YOU were born. You are going to ignore the words of the founder of Wicca.
You didn't grasp what I was saying, did you. I'll make it very, very simple.
1) Wicca by definition is NOT ancient, unless that is how you would characterize the 20th century.
2) Rigid rules and hierarchies were a product of the time in which Gardner created of his system, but are now obsolete. Occult activities and organizations were illegal, and rigid organization was a way of self-preservation for the fledgling covens. This is no longer necessary, nor even excusable.
"Initiated Wiccans" will have a prejudice against having their dogmas questioned. This is the same disease afflicting many in the more mainstream religions as well. Inability to tolerate the questioning of the underlying premises of one's belief system is the taproot of manipulators' strength. When you do not, will not, and -- eventually -- cannot question what you are being taught, your teacher owns you. Your belief system then ceases to have much to do with your spiritual growth.
While I do not agree with their titling themselves "Wica," perhaps it would be better if they called themselves "American Wica," or "American Wicca," since it really isn't the Traditional British Wic(c)a or Traditional British Witchcraft.
But the thing is that some American Wicca are actually Wicca and can trace their lineage back to Gardner. Some of those covens listed towards the end are in in California and such.
Why is the "c" in "wica" pronounced as "k"? In Old English and earlier English, the word was pronounced as "weecha". One is a "witch". Not a "wik". Wouldn't it be more traditional to use the "ch" versus "k"? And why the aversion by many to "warlock" for a male witch? It does mean "oath breaker" in Scots Gaelic, but as the term was used by Christians, it may be Christian oaths that were broken. Similar words from Scandinavia (like "vardlikker" have positive meanings like "singer of spells".
I believe it is because of the double "c" that it is pronounced "weecha". Gardner changed it to make it his word. It kept that way when someone added the other "c" and I haven't found who did that.
I suppose the use of "warlock" makes them think they have a connection to the Gaels. Which they don't of course, but they think they do. It makes me chuckle when some neo-fluffy wiccan says that her/his religion decends from the Celts.
Greetings! I had my facts backwards. The English "waerloga" did mean "traitor", but the Scots Gaelic version of the word didn't - it meant "cunning man". And for centuries, 'warlock" in common usage has meant simply, "male witch". Funny to me that people born centuries after the "traitor" connotation was in use are offended by one meaning which they in essence resurrected. :) Thanks for your answers!
Hm. I thought "waerloga" was the Scots Gaelic. Will have to look that up. I usually refer to myself as either a witch or a magician or an arcanist. /shrug Someone called me a User once, which made me chuckle.
A "user"? Love it! I once knew Catholic monks who wore their ancient-style monastic robes in public. One day an older woman asked them what they were, and they explained. As they walked away, they heard her say to a friend, "What IS religion coming to?" ! Everyone has a different "take" or understanding of "labels". I have used "warlock" (though having to explain its positive aspects gets tiring) and also witch or magician. Self-labels change a lot when you're a Gemini :)
Oh god- all this time I've been the embodiement of everything I despise... a POSER (for lack of a better term)! But it's not necessarily MY fault. I've simply been misinformed. None of the books I read ever bothered or attempted to distinguish between Wicca and witchcraft. Thanks for this video. I have more ammo to look down my nose at annoying little goths. You're really cute btw. That ACCENT! YUM! I could just listen to you all day.
Interesting. As an Alexandrian myself, I'm faintly surprised to see this is still a point of contention in the greater pagan community. I honestly thought we had just learned to accept the fact that wicca as a name has been taken by the pop wicca movement, which is why we now use the term 'British Traditional Wicca' or 'Wicca' with a capital W to distinguish. Only one thing, though... your facts are mostly correct, but some of your interpretations come off as rather harsh and unyielding.
I agree. I think ppl use 'wicca' way too loosely. There are other types of Pagan / Witchcraft traditions like: Alexandrian, Dianic, Faery, Eclectic, Gardnerian, Greco-Roman, Seax Wica, Wiccan Shamanism and so on. I don't know too much about the labeling yourself something. But if ppl want to call themselves something and don't know EXACTLY what it is. Then thats up to them. Their the ones that has to come up with the answers when questions arise. I call myself Solitary Eclectic while I study.
Im not calling myself eclectic wiccan. That wouldn't make any sense. Just Eclectic - In the Pagan Religion. I never said I was Wiccan, and I prob will never be Wiccan. I will practice as I wish... Hence the 'Eclectic' . :^) ... Also I didn't say the list above was a list of wiccans, just traditions / belief systems in the Pagan religion....
Sorry to confuse you. I'm no expert. As I stated above. I'm in study.
umm there is no wrong in the religion it is what ever want as long as u fall under the wicca rede so im srry but ur very wrong there is no wrong in wicca!
Why can you not accept the facts that the beliefsystem of Wicca is open to all? It's the patrondeities, spells and other in the book of shaday to THAT coven which are secred. Covens follows defierent name of the maskuline og feminine aspekts of the devinity. It could be forexample Isis and Pan or other..
Facts is that the charge of the goddess and god, and the descent of the goddess is the beiliefsystem of Wicca. The texts comes from, Gerald Gardner and Dorieen..
I do wish you would listen: WICCA IS ORTHOPRAXIC AND INITIATORY. It is a PRIESTHOOD meaning that have to be INITIATED to become a priest of WICCA. It is not like Christianity where it is orthodox which means right belief. Wicca is right PRACTICE. If you do not practice the secret ways of the Wicca then you are not Wiccan. It is as simple as that, live with it and stop raping a closed culture.
From the charge of the goddess: "And you who seek to know me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire."
Personally I see this as very sexual for she says earlier "All acts of love are my rituals." I see this as proof of the fertility aspects of Traditional Wicca.
I agree with you that Cunninghams and Bucklands books is eklectic neo-paganism and Ravenwolf is just fluff. But The charge of the goddess and god, and the desecent of the goddess IS wiccan mytology and teachings. Those things there are secred is the patron deities and the spells. The eclectic wiccan makes hes own spells and own patron deities which which have a spiritual meaning for the person.
I never said that it wasn't. I do not believe in eclectic wiccans. Anyone who practices Wicca that has not been initiated is a Neo-Wicca or just a witch, or a Seeker. And there is nothing wrong with that.
But the eclectic wiccans follow the charge of the god and goddess, and the descent of the goddess. That's is wiccan mytology and teachnings. You must accept that fact.. eclectic wiccans is all them which don't are initated into a coven and therefor don't follow a specifik tradition..
I follow the descent of the goddes, and the charge of the god and goddess.. i accept the fact that i'am wiccan.. and i will say that i'am not proud because there is so many fluffy bunnies..
Yes, but you are still a Neo-Wiccan. The Tradional Wiccans follow a specific religion, because you do not you are a different type of religion all together. A few acquaintances of mine refer to this as Tvanism, or just Tvan. I can give you the site for Tvanism if you wish.
It's called ECLECTIC wiccan.. the word "wiccan" or "follower of wicca" it both to the initated and none-initated wiccan.. the none-initated wiccan is that follower which are not initated but that don't make the initated to MORE wiccan..
One can not be an uninitiated Wiccan, that would make them a Seeker if they were searching for a true coven. The Initiate is much more Wiccan than the one who just reads books by Cunningham and Buckland and all the other books out there masquerading as Wicca. Go to the source and read Gardner.
"that would make them a Seeker if they were searching for a true coven."
ALL wiccans are seeker. The seek the devinity.. also those in the coven BUT those spells, patrondeities is secred but their path is not the only one path to devinity. That "path" which include them all is the charge of the goddess and god, and the mytology after there it's individual. Therefor are you not more wiccan only because you are initated..
Do you listen...at all? I am not a Wiccan, never have been, never will be. A Seeker is one who is looking for a lineaged coven to be initiated into. Gardner wrote down a specific religion, who are you to change it? Who is anyone to change what someone wrote down. Most everything, save what I have listed here, which you will NOT find in a New-Age section ANYWHERE in America, that is on a New-Age bookshelf is masquerading as Wicca. It is not a religion where you may do what the hell you like.
"Gardner wrote down a specific religion, who are you to change it?"
And he writed the charge of the goddess and (i think the charge of the god is hes to) the descent of the goddess together with Doireen. Those are central wiccan mytology and teaching! So yes those who follow this beliefsystem are wiccans because the beliefsystem is Wicca. You are just eclectic wiccan. To types of wiccans.. traditionals and eclectic. The one is not more wiccan the the other one..
Wicca is still a priesthood and one that you must be initiated into. I do not practice Wicca, I practice Germanic Heathen Witchcraft, if you listened to the videos you would know that by now. Wicca is not an orthodoxic religion, it is orthopractic. Therefore you must practice the correct things to be Wiccan. You still do not know the hidden names of the Lord and Lady of the Isles because you have not been initiated to learn their names.
Suk.. Accept now that the beliefsystem of Wicca is open to all and therefor can all be wiccans. The Goddess and God have no specifik names. I don't think that the defifirent covens have the same name of the Lord and Lady. I know that they hidden their PATRONdeities but their are different from coven to coven..
If they are not the Lord and Lady of the British Isles then they are not Wiccan. For example, Dianic Witches used to be called Wiccan even though they know they are not. Their must be both a god and a goddess because Wicca is a fertility religion and must have the male and female aspects. Wicca is ORTHOPRAXIC. Read the Ardanes, Read Gardner, Read Valiente, Read something other than Silver fucking Raventwat.
And I have said to you that Wicca is orthopraxic. What you believe is only part of what it takes to be a Wiccan. You are not a Wiccan, you are a Neo-Wiccan, a Pagan and a Witch. You have given no proof of what makes you a Wiccan.
I have fact, but you don't know what that bloody well is.
Since you are from Denmark, try Heathenry, I'm sure it will fit much better for your local gods than a BRITISH RELIGION.
By this same logic, whereby one must practice and believe in a single specified way in order to be Wiccan, then everyone who call themselves Christians are deluded unless they are [ insert arbitrary denomination of choice here ].
Christianity is Orthodoxic (right belief). As long as they believe that Yeshua ben Yosef died for their sins and follow the law of the agape then they are Christians. Wicca is Orthopraxic, meaning right practice.
You just want it to be that way because you can't handle the truth that you are wrong, that your life has been cheated and that the books you have been reading are absolutely rubbish and useless.
I have history and actual fact on my side, what do you have?
I have interviews with initiated, 3rd degree Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans, both documented and ones that I have compiled myself, to back up every claim that I have made here. What do you have?
well whatever floats your boat mate :D all i know is im wiccan, whether you think its true or not means little. but i appreciate our little chat.
TheMoonliteshadow 3 weeks ago
@TheMoonliteshadow Live in permanent ignorance, then. I have historic backing, you do not.
TwistingWays 3 weeks ago
really? so your trying to tell people what they are when your not even apart of the religion?
well, whatever floats your boat :P
TheMoonliteshadow 1 month ago
@TheMoonliteshadow I don't have to be a doctor to tell someone that they are not a doctor. All I have to know is what it takes to be a doctor to tell if someone is a doctor or not. You are not of the Wica because you have not been initiated. I know that initiation is a factor because I have done the research to know what it takes to be of the Wica.
TwistingWays 4 weeks ago
@TwistingWays right were not getting anywhere here. how about you have your opinion and ill have my beliefs? seems fair.
TheMoonliteshadow 4 weeks ago
@TheMoonliteshadow Actually what I've stated is historic fact; you're the one denying what academic has proven time and time again. You'll just continue to parade around with a false title that have not earned, how is that fair? You are still a witch, yes, but of the Wica you are not.
TwistingWays 4 weeks ago
you spelt wicca wrong. its "wicca" not wica. Even though i do not agree with your views, i do respect your opinion.. if the Goddess and God calls to a certain person, and he/she opens their arms to her and embraces her ways, arnt they by nature wiccan? please do not misunderstand, i am not offended in the slightest. (: i enjoyed your video. ill just say this, "you say only a wiccan can make a wiccan i say only the goddess and god can make a wiccan, who is better qualified?"
I love your accent(:
TheMoonliteshadow 1 month ago
@TheMoonliteshadow Actually I spelt Wica correctly as it was originally spelt "Wica". The extra C was added later. "Wicca" is accurately pronounced "Witcha". Furthermore, in Wica one is being initiated by the Lord and Lady of the British Isles. If the Lord and Lady of the British Isles approach you, they would tell you what to do as that is what they set down to Gardner in HIS initiation. How do you know if the god and goddess that is contacted you are the gods of the Wica?
TwistingWays 1 month ago
@TwistingWays ......uh huh, and where do you get your source of information may i ask? I feel it in my heart. the same way i know i have brown hair or brown eyes, i see it. i see them in my eyes. the same way you know its the Goddess and God that have contacted YOU. no magick or symbol or someone telling whether or not they have contact makes it true. if you dont feel it in your heart, you just havent made the connection yet.
TheMoonliteshadow 1 month ago
@TheMoonliteshadow Once again people assume that I am of the Wica when I have not stated anything saying so! Gardner, you know the founder of the witch cult you are trying to be a part of? Gerald Gardner wrote down what Wica is. There are hundreds of articles, scholarly articles mind, that tell the world what Wica is. There are lineaged Coveners that I have spoken to that have told me what Wica is. Your gods are not the Lord and Lady of the British Isles, you are not Wica.
TwistingWays 1 month ago
Also, I have noticed a trend, especially here on Youtube, VERY young, barely teen kids saying they are Wiccan. So, I think that a lot of people just claim to be Wiccan without being initiated, and with out years of studying and knowledge. Also, can you give me your definition of a Fluffy please? Just curious. I'm not a wiccan, mind you, perhaps pagan, just learning and wanting to know the difference between all paths. :) Thanks
CelticWillowMoon 1 month ago
@CelticWillowMoon All of the Wicca are pagan, hun :) A fluffy is someone who makes boasting claims with no real evidence to back up what the fuck they are saying. They don't do the work. They could also be called "Read one book and call themselves a witch" people ;)
TwistingWays 1 month ago
So then, what you are saying that Wicca is yet, another organized religion?
CelticWillowMoon 1 month ago
@CelticWillowMoon It depends on your definition of "organized religion". I know many of the Wica do not even call Wica a religion, per se. I would say it is more of an organized group, and together they push towards spiritual enlightenment through the Lord and Lady of the Isles.
TwistingWays 1 month ago
I agree, although I do not stress this point to others and admitedly will call myself (wrongly I know) Wiccan in order to save myself from explaining what the hell I mean by "I am a Blue Star Wicca seeker." Or I will use the loose terms of Pagan and Occultist but even those get questions. (And I really don't feel like explaining myself to people who don't listen)
Also Deborah lipp is a fabules Wiccan author (gardinarian HPS)
pansarblack 2 months ago
YOU DONT EVEN KNOW HOW YO SPELL WICCA. MR FANNCY PANTS WRITER MAN
blackcat91000 2 months ago
@blackcat91000 Actually "Wica" was Gardner's original spelling of the word. So actually I do know how to spell Wica, thank you :P
TwistingWays 2 months ago
You are talking about the craft and then you have to be initiated to know it but you don't have to become a witch to become a wiccan. The charge of the goddess state "There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets; "
Chrode1 3 months ago
@Chrode1 If you are of the Wica then you are a witch at initiation.
TwistingWays 2 months ago
You seem young, but you are well informed. Nicely done lad.
witchman1 6 months ago
like george carlin used to say.."Its all bullshit and its bad for you"
wonnthree 6 months ago
At least you are passionate! Something, I think we agree most people lack in this day and age.
Rawrzz55 7 months ago
Wicca is not meant to evolve? Wicca is a living, breathing tradition. If it does not evolve, if it doesn't adapt, it dies. Also: I have no idea where you got the idea that the BoS is "unalterable". Gardner himself kept changing the wording of the rituals, and so did each and every HPS from his coven - and their students, etc. It's the spirit of the family and the initiatory lineage that connects the Wicca, not dead words, or rituals rendered meaningless by mindless repetition!
Popeoferis 7 months ago
Does Wicca promote being who you are, or do you get bonus points for trying to sound like a poor mans Patrick Stewart? FFS man, let your ideas ride the current on their own, you don't need a pretentious and obviously fake accent to float them.
omgzebras 1 year ago
@omgzebras I'm sorry my "accent"?
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@omgzebras Asshole much? Lol I could tell that's his actual accent because I dunno...I pay attention?
Darkabyss290 9 months ago
You speak the truth, hopefully others will watch and understand all of this. The amount of material falsely labeled "Wicca" is out of control. It is very hard to find witchcraft/sorcery books that aren't written by "Wiccans".
RedWolfSorcerer 1 year ago 3
I hope I didn't mess up my comments; I tried to break mine into two and if they got garbled I apologize. One thing I wanted you to clarify for me: your comments about Gardner and Valiente. As I understand it, HE was the one seeking publicity and exposing secrets, and SHE was the one who became concerned by his attention-seeking behavior (one of the reasons she left and took up with Roy Bowers.) She's one of my favourite authors; I don't consider her solely a Wiccan.
ChrisSuperstar 1 year ago
Thank you for pointing this out. I, too, shudder in horror when I come across people calling themselves "Christian Wiccans" or "Druid Wiccans" or just plain "Wiccan" after reading one book. I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a Witch, but I respect Gardner's religion and hate seeing it cheapened and dragged through the mud by people calling themselves "Wiccan" when they have no clue what they are talking about.
ChrisSuperstar 1 year ago
Have you ever wondered what it'd be like to get into an argument with yourself? It could go on for months, haha!
RandellScandal01 1 year ago
@RandellScandal01 Oh gods, I get into arguments with myself all the time. Never ceasing.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
well i agree on this one.You asked one time my crest and family..im of the Wica from the Krause in Germany. Then to other countries. I am doing my history now and family crest. but Wicca I dont like to see it change.Or see people try to change it.
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL I did not say Family Crest, I said lineage, as in your lineage back to Gardner via cross-gender initiation. Wicca is a British religion, I have no record of any covens in Germany.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays from scottland to germany to england. the blood line runs this course. now krause is also english from the spelling krauss. its also of jewish decentas well. if you do know of he wica i do have some things to show and ask seeing part of your line is missing to some degree.but of the wica none the less. it may also shed some light on this as well.
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL When I say lineage I am not talking about blood lines! I am talking about initiation tracing its way back to Gerald Gardner. Are you initiated into a coven in which the High Priestess can trace her cross-gender initiation back to Gerald Gardner?
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays i was thinking of before gardner seeing some things were never made public by the new forest. for his books. what of the pre gardner being new forest and their lineage in lines with their family of which is blood lines.
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL That is not Wicca. Gardner heard the word "wicca" used by the coven in which he was initiated. He used it publicly to refer to HIS religion, not THEIR religion or practice. Again there was no Wicca as Gardner created it before Gardner. It was merely an old word meaning to bend, nothing more. Gardner put an entire religion behind an old word.
Furthermore, the New Forest coven may or may not have existed.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays oh it does i agree gardner did do this.i was refering to our acnestors known as picts. and the term wicas. add me as friends and i will tell you more private things about what know..how did you end up in the states..
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL The Picts were NOT of the Wicca. Seax-Wica has NO connection what-so-ever with the Picts. If you want to send me messages, just send me messages, I do not need to add you as a friend.
I "ended up" in the states because I was born here.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays more than you realize..
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL Oh, stop with the pseudo-mystery clap trap, it's sad and a little insulting upon your person. The Gael have NOTHING to do with Gerald Gardner or Wicca. Wicca, for one, is derived from an Anglo-Saxon term NOT a Gaelic one. The Gael, for another, are a closed culture. In other words their gods are oathed to THEM, not to Gerald Gardner and his witch-cult.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays its thr truth..i ws mearly asking seeing i am unsure if you yourself was of wic, seeing i caant break my oath..peace
TheWICCACHANNEL 1 year ago
@TheWICCACHANNEL I am not of the Wicca, I have not been initiated. I have stated this numerous times.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
lol i know what you mean but the funny thing is even those who go by the title witch still get caught up in wicca , wicca is the religion witchcraft is the practice of spells and the manipulation of specific forces to bring about change or in otherwords manifest their will aside from the acasional uses of medicinal herbs and countless other things of that nature .my friends mom calls me a wiccan and i tell her i am not a wiccan i am a witch with no rede to go by .
Karmacodeeffect 1 year ago
@Karmacodeeffect Ugh...people still ask me immediately if I am of the Wica and I go into rant mode...most annoying.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
I must agree with you on many things here TW. I can't help feeling you have this knowledge by involvement.
I would question one thing however, Wicca not being progressive. Unfortunately, even some of Gardners P'ss's feel, that much was missing & so added their own bits. However, that said, I am twixt two minds in that, I also feel Wica is a creation of Gardner & I fail to see, how it can evolve to such paths as Christian Wicca, Startreck wicca, etc. !st vid ive seen looking forward to more.
MelliferaSiren1 1 year ago
@MelliferaSiren1 Oh but of course! That is how we get Alexadrian, Crescent and so on, but the point is that they keep the core that Gardner created. They may focus more on say...Kabbalah, or may have more Skyclad rituals or something, but the point is they keep the Core rituals of Wica and that is what makes it true Wica.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays Sory, I know nothing of Cresecent. I am in the UK, As an Alexandrain/Gardnerian, we dont really focus on Kabbalah so much, I presume you do in the States.
Many or most Garnderians/Alexandrians will do skyclad/naked.
So, I take it your not of the Wiccan tribe, what are you?
MelliferaSiren1 1 year ago
@MelliferaSiren1 This is just what I heard from a fellow Alexandrian, I am not sure if it is the same through out all places.
I am not of the Wica, no. I am a witch being that I practice a witchcraft that is inspired from historical witchcraft (also known as traditional witchcraft in some circles). I draw my practices from folklore in the Highlands regarding witchcraft as well as whatever else I pick up in the British Isles in reference to witchcraft.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
100% Agree.
jonathonmars 1 year ago
A person's beliefs and practices do not change simply because of correct or incorrect terminology. Out of respect for the history of “true Wicca”, and mostly out of respect for those who associate with the original practices, I feel no problem in calling my spiritual path by some other name. However, I also see no harm in someone continuing to use the term if they are educated in the origin and the differences between their practice and that of the founders.
edlkf5 1 year ago
@edlkf5 Their -belief- is perfectly sound. If you listen I am not trying to change anyone's belief system merely the title that they give it because it is -wrong-. If they continue to use the term -knowing- that they are wrong then they are ignorant of its meaning.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays I did listen and I appreciated how you stated numerous times that the practice and beliefs are not wrong - only the term used is wrong. My comment was to explain any other viewers who cared to read it that I agree with your views expressed in the video, but to also show my understanding to those who practice under a term that they have grown attached to and made their own. I only meant to show that I saw both sides. I do respect history and tradition but more-so I respect people.
edlkf5 1 year ago
I realize this is an old video but I still loved it! I can totally appreciate what you're saying. I don't often comment on things, in fact this is only the 2nd time, but wanted to say I can see what you're saying and totally appreciate your point of view even if others don't. :)
demeter4me 1 year ago
you are well read. thank you for sharing.
imckbe 1 year ago
Very refreshing. You're one of the few people in the neo-pagan community who actually "Get it". You're a voice in the wilderness, but you're not alone.
Tygerhart 1 year ago
i do not agree with many things that you said. i dont think you have the right to say who is and is not a wiccan. there is a basis of wicca, however the thing i love about this religion is that wicca is a reigion that you can make your own. and the practices of Gardener were his traditions, and as i'm sure you may know there are many different traditions in wicca. i think everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this video is very misleading.
onewhiteeye 1 year ago
@onewhiteeye Whether you agree or not does not matter, what I say is the truth. Read a few scholarly books and maybe you can have an opinion, too.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays listen, there's no need to act like that. i wasn't insulting you, but i just wanted to voice my opinion. The way i see it, is that you are saying that Gardnerian wicca is the only form of wicca. and yes it might be true that all forms of wicca must stem from Gardnerian wicca because it was the first, however things evolve, change. and it is not a fact that you are right; the argument that we are having is actualy very widespread throughout the wiccan communtiy.
onewhiteeye 1 year ago
@onewhiteeye That is precisely what I am saying, actually. Gardner created the religion. He founded it et cetera. What he says goes and what his followers say goes. The only reason it "evolved" is because a little idiot prick named Scott Cunningham decided to break his vows. And Raymond Buckland did the same exact thing. I know it is widespread, I have to deal with people like every day that have never picked up a scholarly book in their lives.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays I have only recently become aware of the existing controversy of the term "Wicca" and your video was rather insightful. After watching, I wanted to post a comment myself thanking you for sharing your knowledge; however, after reading your last response comment I was appauled. I had wrongly assumed you were an openminded and respectful individual. Your comment was cruel and distasteful specifically regarding the deceased. You have no right to judge anyone so harshly.
edlkf5 1 year ago
@edlkf5 What -are- you on about? Which comment are you referring to where I insult the Mighty Dead?
Ohhhh You mean when I insult the oathbreaker Scott Cunningham, heh heh. Well, it's the truth of things. Scott Cunningham wanted to change the core of Wica and the Gardnerian Elders that he was covening with did not agree (because he had barely bad 1st degree) and so they kicked him out. In retaliation he decided to tell everyone that they could be of the Wica if they followed these simple steps.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@edlkf5 Therefore, as someone who respects the faith of the Wica and such I have every right to reveal his betrayal along with the betrayal of the oathbreaker and racist Raymond Buckland. I will not be open minded about traitors, oathbreakers, rapists, racists, et cetera even if they are dead. Their souls have moved on, their minds (unfortunately) still remain in the dusty pages of their wretched books.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays Believe what and how you will but their "betrayal" was not to you. No one can stop you from saying what you think based on known truths or facts, but it seems to me that you are throwing uneducated and unproven accusations (rapist?) around in an attempt to defend your oddly strong hatred against others. Your condescending attitude makes your argument weak, and, your judgmental and narrow-minded views, in my eyes, poorly represent the principles behind any Pagan or Neo Pagan faith.
edlkf5 1 year ago
@edlkf5 I was merely giving examples of people that I am not open-minded about, I accused no one. Furthermore paganism is a not a "faith"; it is an umbrella term for -any- religion that is not one of the three Abrahamic faiths. Therefore there are rarely any combined principles between the pagan faiths. The only persons that I "hate" are Raymond Buckland for being a racist, Cunningham for being an oathbreaker, Silver Ravenwolf for being a lying condescending twat and Bush for being an idiot.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@TwistingWays Well, in my definition "faith" refers to a belief in something felt but not seen and, as of now, that is the term I use to describe my spiritual path. I mean no offense to you personally, but it seems to me that anyone with such hatred within them can be destructive as a public representative of any Pagan branch or Paganism as a whole. I was simply disturbed that, after so many years of breaking free of prejudices, it seems Pagans are now fighting amongst themselves.
edlkf5 1 year ago
@edlkf5 Yes it is true that there is much infighting. As I always say: We pagans are a silly bunch. I do not harbor true "hatred" for these people (except perhaps Sarah Palin....hm...) but I do have great pity for them and a strong dislike. As a pagan I do not feel obligated to "love" everyone and everything just because they, too, are pagan. What the above persons have done is broken their oaths and ruined something beautiful. I may disagree with a lot of the Wica but it is a culture.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@edlkf5 and a culture should not be destroyed by people that wish to take revenge or that are ignorant to it. Many people feel that Wicca should be "evolved" or something, but if those who think that do not know of even the origins of Wica and only accept the lies of some authors (thank you Silver Raventwat) then they have no right to even attempt to call themselves Wiccan. They should do their research and in a world where research is so easily corrupted it is hard, yes.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
@edlkf5 Nothing comes out of nothing and that goes for laziness. I take no responsibility for anyone that thinks they way I do. I am my own person and my opinions are mine alone and not that of others. If others that are within my circles of communication become offended by what they say then that is their own problem. I do not speak for them I speak for myself. I do not speak for all pagans, I speak for myself.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
Do you agree that the word Wicca was not really even used to describe the tradition until the 80's, except as a euphemism for mixed company? (It really isn't a significant factor in your argument, I'm just curious as to your findings.)
StarsintheRaven 1 year ago
@StarsintheRaven I do agree with this, yes. Gardner used Wica, which was more of a people than a religion.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
i didn't know Alexandrians were more accepting of homosexuals-may I ask how you figure.
bridepride09 1 year ago
@bridepride09 This is what an Alexandrian High Priestess told me. She gave examples, but for the life of me I don't remember where I put them.
TwistingWays 1 year ago
I agree- people tend to oversimplify and think that Witches and Wiccans are the same thing. I'm proud to be part of a more individualized, non hierarchical tradition of Neopagan Witchcraft. There's nothing wrong with either path, it's just annoying when people make untrue generalizations. :)
superbobfulspiffy 1 year ago
I like you.. this was incredibly helpful... I'm still trying to sort out my own beliefs and.. i fully intend to look into the reading you recommended.. and i also have to mention that i can't understand how anyone could fall into the Silver Ravenwolf trap.. do an ounce of research and anyone could find out how much of a fake she is, but I'm sure that an Ounce of research is far more than she did while writing her own books.
once again many thanks
twistedanimation27 1 year ago
Loved the vid~! Good work!
Aridelles 2 years ago
Does Gerald Gardner in his writing cites properly the "horn god" and "serpent" ?
seyoumeye 2 years ago
I don't understand the question, can you be a bit more clear?
TwistingWays 2 years ago
If you didn't get the two key words i mentioned earlier then please ignore my question.
I am well head from the Wica literature.
seyoumeye 2 years ago
No it is more that I cannot understand what you are typing. You are taking out participles that I need to understand what you are trying to ask.
Are you trying to make a connection with the Horned God and the Serpent of Christianity?
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but upon studying the occult lore my research shows that the most prominent features are the Horned God and Serpent which are in clear contrast with what Christianity and others religious groups preach (e.g.devil and deceiver).
I was wondering whether these 2 features are discussed or represented in the Wica discipline...
Do they have any esoteric or occult characteristic within the Wica literature?
seyoumeye 2 years ago
Ah I see what you mean. As far as I am aware Wicca is not a Luciferian cult and therefore does not worship a "Devil" Like god. Their god is a god of the Underworld and Death so there is that possibility of course. Gardner, however, I do not believe mentions serpent when referencing the Lord of the Isles.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Who initiated the first Wiccan? Someone at some point had to simply call themselves Wicca. Think about it.
psionomega 2 years ago
Gardner was, according to myth, initiated by the Black Forest Coven and later initiated by the Lady and Lord of the British Isles.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
The burning times...right.
Aside from the fact that I highly doubt witches would once again be burned at the stake (which didnt happen as much as some would want to believe) you do seem to give off a supercilious attitude. I mean no disrespect, and I hardly think that youre staid and stodgy. You are a very intelligent person.
Olympo7 2 years ago
The Burning Times never existed. It was made up for who knows what reason. Probably for people that have a persecution complex.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
I agree with what you had to say in this video, except I do not think they should call what they are doing Witchcraft either. Perhaps a better term for it would be Eclectic Neo-Paganism.
There is a difference between what they are doing and Witchcraft. Witchcraft to has its traditions which have been handed down within family lines from generation to generation. Witchcraft is not a free for all either. Although it does not hold to dogma, it does have traditions.
Mr1000000dollarman 2 years ago
What Gerald Gardner created is specific and mustn't be changed
Why should anyone follow that advice when Gardner himself stole parts from the Book of The Law, which states very clearly...
Change not as much as the style of a letter...
Gardner didn't seem to have any issues ripping off something which others believed to be a sacred.
Thankfully Doreen changed most of the obvious, but you can still see traces of Crowley's work.
It's terribly hypocritical.
YTBNA 2 years ago
You do know that Crowley and Gardner worked together, yes?
Gardner's Wicca tradition is specific. Everything after that point (IE Neo-Wiccan books) is not Wicca.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
I am very much aware of the connection, thank you.
However, I'm uncertain you are, as you would know AC's O.T.O was entrusted into Gardner's care, and that one of his primary duties as guardian was to preserve the The Book of the Law.
Gardner would not have been granted use of the gnostic mass due to the laws secured in the book.
I'm in no way claiming you are wrong in your opinion to uphold the doctrine of Wicca, I am simply highlighting the ironic nature of that specific request.
YTBNA 2 years ago
I never said that what Gardner did was moralistic, but if one is going to try and follow the Wicca that Gardner set down (stolen or otherwise) one has is almost obligated to follow what is there (stolen or otherwise).
TwistingWays 2 years ago
You have your wiccan path we have ours. You can not say what is and is not wicca.
i1234t1234 2 years ago
I love how he thinks that I am wiccan...
TwistingWays 2 years ago
what makes you think im a he?
i1234t1234 2 years ago
S/he then.
I am still not of the Wicca
TwistingWays 2 years ago
you make a video on it makes people think your part of the faith.
i1234t1234 2 years ago
And yet if you watch any of my other videos I explain that I am not part of the fertility witchcult that is Wicca.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
your videos are bland and uninteresting so chose not to watch any more, sorry
i1234t1234 2 years ago
Your grammar is atrocious. Quite frankly it doesn't really bother me if you aren't going to watch; I could care less.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Love all your references and research. Very well done!
kaystone12 2 years ago
In a way, I would agree with you in the original term and its meaning. However, human words or merely word. if a rock is suddenly called mash, and a lot of people call it a mash, a new word has entered the language. example, coke meant only cocaine, until a drink came up. cock meant rooster until it began to be associated with genitals, etc. etc. words r just words. Many non-Wica r based on Gardnerian ideas. all have Lord & Lady, etc. Who cares about a small group of ppl?
taliesin939939 2 years ago
Yes, they are based, but they are not Wicca. Wicca has specific gods. They are confusing Wicca with pagansism. Yes, Wiccans are pagans, but Wiccans have specific gods, pagans do not. Pagans are any persons not worshiping the Abrahamic god.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
But- the word, Wicca, pronounced "Weetcha," and Wicce, pronounced "Weetch-ay" is an older term predating Gardner, and separate of the priesthood. This term was -interchangeable- with the term "Witch," definitely meaning "Wise One." It is true, New Forest may have adopted and taken upon themselves the name of "The Wica," lineaged and all, with only having one C, pronounced "Whicka."
There is historical, empirical, and ethnographic evidence that backs up these central claims.
-continued-
SpazAHolic23 2 years ago
My mother actually belongs to a Gardnerian coven. The High Priestess, however, seems quite open to "non-wiccans" as you describe them. she is 4th generation from gardner, meaning gardner initiated one who initiated one, who initiated her. also, the fastest growing religion in the world. when "truth" of this nature is so subjective to individual interpretation, the multitues when over in defining human vocabulary. i understand ur meaning, hto. in a way ur perfectly right.
taliesin939939 2 years ago
However, even though it went against what gardner intended, it doesnt have to go the same way to be wicca. jesus' teachings r not even remotely similar to modern christian religion, but it is still called christian.
taliesin939939 2 years ago
However, there are many Christians who are trying to reclaim the law of Agape. The difference is that Christianity is a orthodoxic faith (right belief). This belief is in Yeshua ben Yosef and accepting him as your lord and savior and the law of agape etc etc. Wicca is orthopraxic where one must practice it correctly in order to become of the Wicca.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
If I may, respectfully, intercede with your "A Clairification of Wicca," I think the claim you stake is exceedingly well thought-out and precise.
My only problem, therein, is that Wicca, as it were, in Olde English tongue is not interchangeable to The Wica. The Wica (emphasis on only using one C), is a Priesthood, as you describe, with certain practices/rituals/gods that are secret, Oathbound information that is orally passed down to initiates. This much is true.
-continuing in new post-
SpazAHolic23 2 years ago
I do agree with this, but I believe that many initiated Wiccans refer to themselves as both "The Wica" and as "Wiccans" So for this I am not sure.
I still ask when people refer to themselves as Wiccan.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Yes, this is true, as well. I agree that it can be exceedingly difficult to differentiate between the two, but I feel this is paramount to understanding the history beyond and separate of New Forest descent. I am Wiccan in the sense of the Olde English term, not the Gardnerian Lineage. It's Traditional Witchcraft- simply a title for a "Wise One." Though I do find new-age Wiccans have the term completely wrong, and this is where I see your video as helpful. Very well researched. Well Done!
SpazAHolic23 2 years ago
Ah I see, I see. Are you familiar with the book Witch: A book of Cunning? At least I think that is what it is entitled...
TwistingWays 2 years ago
1st big dogma? That Wicca is anything more than a product of the 20th century. Gardner was brilliant, but not ancient. And his successors have used no less imagination than he did at Wicca's birth.
2nd dogma? That rigid rules and hierarchies are requisite.
I pity anyone who will buy into either of these dogmas. Just pity them. They've earned nothing more. Just pity.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
Why do you keep repeating yourself? It isn't making you any less valid.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
That my two statements are statements of fact, not open to debate, make them valid. Any repetition is merely paraphrasing in hopes of penetrating past your prejudices.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
My only objection is hearing suggestions that Wicca is anything more than a 20th century creation. It is not ancient, though Gardner drew on countless ancient sources to fill out his system. The great bulk of it, however, came from his imagination, and those of his successors. Just quit deluding yourself as to the ancient roots of Wicca. That's all I ask. Understand?'
'
Blessed Be, TwistingWays!
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
Again, I didn't claim that Wicca was ancient. Roots do not make it ancient.
Do not bless me with your gods, for all you know it could be a curse. Remove it at once.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Your fears are your only curse. Those fears seem to include a fear of questioning those who have come before you. That fear is clearly the worst and most dangerous, for is taints your potential for some profound spiritual growth.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
No, I just don't want your gods blessing me, thank you very much.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
The self-consciously pseudo-elite diction and pronunciation makes it difficult for me to take him seriously. Though, even if his speech weren't so affected, he's far too young for me to take seriously. I was studying these things long before he was born, and I'd never be so conceited as to pass myself off as an authority.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
So in other words you are just going to ignore the truth of scholars that have studied this before YOU were born. You are going to ignore the words of the founder of Wicca.
I deem you a troll and not worthy of my time.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
You didn't grasp what I was saying, did you. I'll make it very, very simple.
1) Wicca by definition is NOT ancient, unless that is how you would characterize the 20th century.
2) Rigid rules and hierarchies were a product of the time in which Gardner created of his system, but are now obsolete. Occult activities and organizations were illegal, and rigid organization was a way of self-preservation for the fledgling covens. This is no longer necessary, nor even excusable.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
1. I gave no claim to Wicca being ancient, prove that I said this.
2. You tell that to an initiated Wiccan then come back to me please.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
"Initiated Wiccans" will have a prejudice against having their dogmas questioned. This is the same disease afflicting many in the more mainstream religions as well. Inability to tolerate the questioning of the underlying premises of one's belief system is the taproot of manipulators' strength. When you do not, will not, and -- eventually -- cannot question what you are being taught, your teacher owns you. Your belief system then ceases to have much to do with your spiritual growth.
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
While I do not agree with their titling themselves "Wica," perhaps it would be better if they called themselves "American Wica," or "American Wicca," since it really isn't the Traditional British Wic(c)a or Traditional British Witchcraft.
witchalan77 2 years ago
But the thing is that some American Wicca are actually Wicca and can trace their lineage back to Gardner. Some of those covens listed towards the end are in in California and such.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Why is the "c" in "wica" pronounced as "k"? In Old English and earlier English, the word was pronounced as "weecha". One is a "witch". Not a "wik". Wouldn't it be more traditional to use the "ch" versus "k"? And why the aversion by many to "warlock" for a male witch? It does mean "oath breaker" in Scots Gaelic, but as the term was used by Christians, it may be Christian oaths that were broken. Similar words from Scandinavia (like "vardlikker" have positive meanings like "singer of spells".
lichtbroeder 2 years ago
I believe it is because of the double "c" that it is pronounced "weecha". Gardner changed it to make it his word. It kept that way when someone added the other "c" and I haven't found who did that.
I suppose the use of "warlock" makes them think they have a connection to the Gaels. Which they don't of course, but they think they do. It makes me chuckle when some neo-fluffy wiccan says that her/his religion decends from the Celts.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Greetings! I had my facts backwards. The English "waerloga" did mean "traitor", but the Scots Gaelic version of the word didn't - it meant "cunning man". And for centuries, 'warlock" in common usage has meant simply, "male witch". Funny to me that people born centuries after the "traitor" connotation was in use are offended by one meaning which they in essence resurrected. :) Thanks for your answers!
lichtbroeder 2 years ago
Hm. I thought "waerloga" was the Scots Gaelic. Will have to look that up. I usually refer to myself as either a witch or a magician or an arcanist. /shrug Someone called me a User once, which made me chuckle.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
A "user"? Love it! I once knew Catholic monks who wore their ancient-style monastic robes in public. One day an older woman asked them what they were, and they explained. As they walked away, they heard her say to a friend, "What IS religion coming to?" ! Everyone has a different "take" or understanding of "labels". I have used "warlock" (though having to explain its positive aspects gets tiring) and also witch or magician. Self-labels change a lot when you're a Gemini :)
lichtbroeder 2 years ago
Oh god- all this time I've been the embodiement of everything I despise... a POSER (for lack of a better term)! But it's not necessarily MY fault. I've simply been misinformed. None of the books I read ever bothered or attempted to distinguish between Wicca and witchcraft. Thanks for this video. I have more ammo to look down my nose at annoying little goths. You're really cute btw. That ACCENT! YUM! I could just listen to you all day.
Sebastian360xyz 2 years ago
Interesting. As an Alexandrian myself, I'm faintly surprised to see this is still a point of contention in the greater pagan community. I honestly thought we had just learned to accept the fact that wicca as a name has been taken by the pop wicca movement, which is why we now use the term 'British Traditional Wicca' or 'Wicca' with a capital W to distinguish. Only one thing, though... your facts are mostly correct, but some of your interpretations come off as rather harsh and unyielding.
pacio49 2 years ago 2
I agree. I think ppl use 'wicca' way too loosely. There are other types of Pagan / Witchcraft traditions like: Alexandrian, Dianic, Faery, Eclectic, Gardnerian, Greco-Roman, Seax Wica, Wiccan Shamanism and so on. I don't know too much about the labeling yourself something. But if ppl want to call themselves something and don't know EXACTLY what it is. Then thats up to them. Their the ones that has to come up with the answers when questions arise. I call myself Solitary Eclectic while I study.
melopez24 2 years ago
The Dianics don't call themselves Wicca anymore.
One can not be an eclectic Wiccan. Unless you are referring to witchcraft, in which case your post rather confuses me.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Im not calling myself eclectic wiccan. That wouldn't make any sense. Just Eclectic - In the Pagan Religion. I never said I was Wiccan, and I prob will never be Wiccan. I will practice as I wish... Hence the 'Eclectic' . :^) ... Also I didn't say the list above was a list of wiccans, just traditions / belief systems in the Pagan religion....
Sorry to confuse you. I'm no expert. As I stated above. I'm in study.
melopez24 2 years ago
Ah, ok. I was just confused then XD
TwistingWays 2 years ago
The Thelema is not really my strong point. I would have to research that a little.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
umm there is no wrong in the religion it is what ever want as long as u fall under the wicca rede so im srry but ur very wrong there is no wrong in wicca!
yogibear913 2 years ago
Have you read Gardner? Do you know who Gardner is?
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Btw.. where did a said that you was wiccan?
chrode1989 2 years ago
"Therefor are you not more wiccan only because you are initated.."
"You are just eclectic wiccan."
I am beginning to think you are a troll and will therefore block you from my videos if I have evidence that you are.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Why can you not accept the facts that the beliefsystem of Wicca is open to all? It's the patrondeities, spells and other in the book of shaday to THAT coven which are secred. Covens follows defierent name of the maskuline og feminine aspekts of the devinity. It could be forexample Isis and Pan or other..
Facts is that the charge of the goddess and god, and the descent of the goddess is the beiliefsystem of Wicca. The texts comes from, Gerald Gardner and Dorieen..
chrode1989 2 years ago
I do wish you would listen: WICCA IS ORTHOPRAXIC AND INITIATORY. It is a PRIESTHOOD meaning that have to be INITIATED to become a priest of WICCA. It is not like Christianity where it is orthodox which means right belief. Wicca is right PRACTICE. If you do not practice the secret ways of the Wicca then you are not Wiccan. It is as simple as that, live with it and stop raping a closed culture.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
And i will wish you would understand.. but i give up now.. live in unknowledge and so be it..
chrode1989 2 years ago
You just can't accept that you are not Wiccan. Why do you HAVE to be Wiccan? Go find a coven, a lineaged coven, and talk to them about it.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
chrode1989 2 years ago
"[...]at the end of desire."
Personally I see this as very sexual for she says earlier "All acts of love are my rituals." I see this as proof of the fertility aspects of Traditional Wicca.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
I don't deny that..
chrode1989 2 years ago
I agree with you that Cunninghams and Bucklands books is eklectic neo-paganism and Ravenwolf is just fluff. But The charge of the goddess and god, and the desecent of the goddess IS wiccan mytology and teachings. Those things there are secred is the patron deities and the spells. The eclectic wiccan makes hes own spells and own patron deities which which have a spiritual meaning for the person.
chrode1989 2 years ago
I never said that it wasn't. I do not believe in eclectic wiccans. Anyone who practices Wicca that has not been initiated is a Neo-Wicca or just a witch, or a Seeker. And there is nothing wrong with that.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
But the eclectic wiccans follow the charge of the god and goddess, and the descent of the goddess. That's is wiccan mytology and teachnings. You must accept that fact.. eclectic wiccans is all them which don't are initated into a coven and therefor don't follow a specifik tradition..
I follow the descent of the goddes, and the charge of the god and goddess.. i accept the fact that i'am wiccan.. and i will say that i'am not proud because there is so many fluffy bunnies..
chrode1989 2 years ago
Yes, but you are still a Neo-Wiccan. The Tradional Wiccans follow a specific religion, because you do not you are a different type of religion all together. A few acquaintances of mine refer to this as Tvanism, or just Tvan. I can give you the site for Tvanism if you wish.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
It's called ECLECTIC wiccan.. the word "wiccan" or "follower of wicca" it both to the initated and none-initated wiccan.. the none-initated wiccan is that follower which are not initated but that don't make the initated to MORE wiccan..
chrode1989 2 years ago
One can not be an uninitiated Wiccan, that would make them a Seeker if they were searching for a true coven. The Initiate is much more Wiccan than the one who just reads books by Cunningham and Buckland and all the other books out there masquerading as Wicca. Go to the source and read Gardner.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
"that would make them a Seeker if they were searching for a true coven."
ALL wiccans are seeker. The seek the devinity.. also those in the coven BUT those spells, patrondeities is secred but their path is not the only one path to devinity. That "path" which include them all is the charge of the goddess and god, and the mytology after there it's individual. Therefor are you not more wiccan only because you are initated..
chrode1989 2 years ago
Do you listen...at all? I am not a Wiccan, never have been, never will be. A Seeker is one who is looking for a lineaged coven to be initiated into. Gardner wrote down a specific religion, who are you to change it? Who is anyone to change what someone wrote down. Most everything, save what I have listed here, which you will NOT find in a New-Age section ANYWHERE in America, that is on a New-Age bookshelf is masquerading as Wicca. It is not a religion where you may do what the hell you like.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
"Gardner wrote down a specific religion, who are you to change it?"
And he writed the charge of the goddess and (i think the charge of the god is hes to) the descent of the goddess together with Doireen. Those are central wiccan mytology and teaching! So yes those who follow this beliefsystem are wiccans because the beliefsystem is Wicca. You are just eclectic wiccan. To types of wiccans.. traditionals and eclectic. The one is not more wiccan the the other one..
chrode1989 2 years ago
Wicca is still a priesthood and one that you must be initiated into. I do not practice Wicca, I practice Germanic Heathen Witchcraft, if you listened to the videos you would know that by now. Wicca is not an orthodoxic religion, it is orthopractic. Therefore you must practice the correct things to be Wiccan. You still do not know the hidden names of the Lord and Lady of the Isles because you have not been initiated to learn their names.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Suk.. Accept now that the beliefsystem of Wicca is open to all and therefor can all be wiccans. The Goddess and God have no specifik names. I don't think that the defifirent covens have the same name of the Lord and Lady. I know that they hidden their PATRONdeities but their are different from coven to coven..
chrode1989 2 years ago
If they are not the Lord and Lady of the British Isles then they are not Wiccan. For example, Dianic Witches used to be called Wiccan even though they know they are not. Their must be both a god and a goddess because Wicca is a fertility religion and must have the male and female aspects. Wicca is ORTHOPRAXIC. Read the Ardanes, Read Gardner, Read Valiente, Read something other than Silver fucking Raventwat.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Comment removed
chrode1989 2 years ago
And I have said to you that Wicca is orthopraxic. What you believe is only part of what it takes to be a Wiccan. You are not a Wiccan, you are a Neo-Wiccan, a Pagan and a Witch. You have given no proof of what makes you a Wiccan.
I have fact, but you don't know what that bloody well is.
Since you are from Denmark, try Heathenry, I'm sure it will fit much better for your local gods than a BRITISH RELIGION.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
By this same logic, whereby one must practice and believe in a single specified way in order to be Wiccan, then everyone who call themselves Christians are deluded unless they are [ insert arbitrary denomination of choice here ].
twenty3enigma 2 years ago
Christianity is Orthodoxic (right belief). As long as they believe that Yeshua ben Yosef died for their sins and follow the law of the agape then they are Christians. Wicca is Orthopraxic, meaning right practice.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
You just want it to be that way because you can't handle the truth that you are wrong, that your life has been cheated and that the books you have been reading are absolutely rubbish and useless.
I have history and actual fact on my side, what do you have?
I have interviews with initiated, 3rd degree Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wiccans, both documented and ones that I have compiled myself, to back up every claim that I have made here. What do you have?
The Charge? The Charge is but one facet.
TwistingWays 2 years ago
Ohhhhh I see.
Oh look...
A remove button.
Your trolling is useless.
TwistingWays 2 years ago