OK. I am just wandering who is giving the money for this Propaganda?. Macedonians...where were the macedonians in 1878 during the Russian-Turkish war, when Bulgaria gain its independance? Learn some history and than talk. Macedonia was created and was separated from its Motherland Bulgaria. The truth will prevail some day and that day is near!!!
astronaft12, you have same problem as "Greeks", one mother but multiple father's, thats why you have a bit of dust in your brain. Try to land down where you came, Mongolia. Also can you understand that no one listen to you, thats why you "Bulgars" have a special treatment in EU, behind bars.
"Try to land down where you came, Mongolia".. man we bulgarians are not from Mongolia, we came from Asia(we are known as the White Europeans in Asia- 10 thousands years ago).The mountain Tian Shan to be exact. I am working on a web site" The contributions of the Ancient Great Bulgarians"(i will give you a link). Give me facts not rumors. I have facts with maps from 17c. where Macedonia is not even a place, it is part of Bulgaria.
There is a millions selfrecognised historians in this world, you are one of those. Anyway put some good glasses when you read in to the history, or ask your Mother why you use Kirilica when this is MAKEDONIA. Also I have respect over any nation, and newer try to tell you that you are Makedonec. So you look alot like Himler, trying to tell me what I am. Shame on you tatarce.
FYROM violates the interim agreement all the time...
you use Greek symbols (Vergina Sun), you rename Skopje airport to Alexander the Great, despite the fact that there is already an airport in Kavala prefecture, with that name! Do you want more??? Do you still believe that FYROM is a reliable country and respect it's neighbors? Their history, their legacy? How can i respect you, when you don't give a shit and don't respect me? Who can i respect you when you provoke me all the time?
lisen here sakis fukis pitchkati tvoja da ti ebam I am Macedonian and not an ugly greek like yourself greek ppl r dogg ugly and i dont give a fuck about your stupid politics Im Macedonian and always will be jebise
When you call yourselves just Macedonians and your country Macedonia and try to prove to the whole world that the ancient history they knew for centuries now, is false, you have already violated that and the human rights of the other two parties!
And please stop this nonsense about occupation, i believe you are a grown man and can use better arguments (than fake arguments)!
When did the Republic of Macedonia try to monopolise the name? When did it tell Greece, Bulgaria and Albania that they can't use the name Macedonia? What law about monopolizing a name did the Macedonian Republic violate? Please cite it.
Kurczak777, Before you tell somebody "When you will learn to write properly English..", you should learn that the proper way to say that is "When you learn to write English properly". Or maybe your problem is not only that you can't communicate properly in English, but you just can't communicate properly in any language.
Some of the fanatical Greeks in this thread are quite obviously not even descendants of the ancient Hellenes who saw the Macedonians as a foreign race, let alone of the ancient Macedonians. The manners and intelligence of these new Greek chauvinists are proof enough that they've skipped the evolutionary process between neanderthal and human being. Demosthenes would be spitting fire in his grave if he knew who was speaking on behalf of Hellenes today.
If its for humans only then what the fuck you are doing there? When you will learn to write properly English and not sound like a complete retard, try to post some more.
kurczak777 If You are not cilvilized enough to participate in a discussion please restrain yourself from posting comments. You obviously care very much for the Macedonian people to be back watching this clip many times, or you are just a loser with nothing to do. You seem to visit this as some sort of deviate to get pleasure out of it. I wonder if you would say what you post here to someone in person! Its a shame your parents didnt use contraception!
Cont.d Part 4 - Though all of this has strengthened the resolve for Macedonian self determination one nation one Pain. Looking at most recent history we have suffered the most for Macedonia and it will be ill and defeating for us to accept any other name and it will never happen. As far as 2000yrs ago...Alexander Who? Who cares?
O.k let's forget for a while the history thing and see it from another side...
the Macedonia region is among Greece, FYROM and Bulgaria, so we have Greek Macedonians, Slav Macedonians and Bulgarian Macedonians (the term Macedonians is a regional and not ethnical)...
is this legal (from a country) to monopolize that name? Isn't that against the human rights of the other two parties?
The fact that Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania occupied parts of Macedonia by force and indoctrinated large parts of the population into being Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian or Albanian does not mean there are no ethnic Macedonians in those regions. Don't force yourself to be blind to the human rights reports about the ethnic Macedonians in those regions.
Part 3 - The Republic of Macedonia and its people are going through it at the moment let us decide and resolve this issue ourselves with no interference and it will be better for all, the difficult thing is that Macedonia went from Feudalism under the Ottomans to Capitalism and Ethnic conditioning (By 3 interested parties Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria,) through Uprisings WW1 WW2 ethnic cleansing, Communism then Democracy all in less than 100 years. We need a break
Cont.d Part 2 - Greece Serbia Bulgaria were all going through this in the 1800s when there wasn't an information superhighway I'm sure if we looked at them under the microscope we would see them make mistakes. They all went from Feudalism to Capitalism immediately with no time lag.
Part 1 Every nation has had a process of building it self thorough rediscovery of its roots and reason for existence. If Greece was doing this today they would face similar problems to what Macedonia does. After all we are not dogs to determine our genealogy to see whether we are a purebreed....Cont.d
You cannot criticise a nation for one dictator(1939). I know what he did to the Slavs (slavomacedonians) and i know what our neghtbours did to Greek people. But the problem with FYROM today is only the Name we describe different people.Hellas is maybe the only state that want FYROM unite.(I hate the name fyrom but its our agreement and i respect it)
And since Macedonia became independent, Greece has consently invaded in internal affairs, not only that but we had a Macedonian War... of course democracy won't be perfect right away, look at America, only in the 1960's.. 140 years after independence did they become a true democracy
IstorTheFanatic, I don't need a comment from anybody to make me what I am.
Since you appear to have comprehension problems, let me indicate to you that citation from Prime Minsiter Trikoupis points to the fact that ethnic Macedonians who now identify as Greeks or Bulgarians have ancestors who did not identify as such until the Greek and Bulgarian nationalist assimilation in Macedonia.
Its funny to receive lessons of democracy and respect from FYROM.(and other neighbors)
A new Economist Intelligence Unit survey of 167 countries places Greece among the world's 28 "full democracies".
Six other countries Bulgaria (49th), Romania (50th), Croatia (51st), Serbia (55th), Montenegro (58th) and FYROM (68th) also fall in the "flawed democracies" group.
Ranked 83rd, 87th and 88th, respectively, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Turkey are in the 30 nation "hybrid regimes" group.
what the name metaxas meens to you. not the ouzo. i mean general metaxas. if you know what he did to the macedonians, you will be ashamed to conect greeks and democracy.
In June 2004 the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance noted that "persons wishing to express their Macedonian, Turkish or other identity incur the hostility of the population". The commission encouraged the Greek authorities to take further steps toward the recognition of the freedom of association and expression of members of the Macedonian and Turkish communities.
In May 2004 the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights urged Greece to reconsider its position regarding the recognition of ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities, and invited it to ratify the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities 1995.
In "Denying Ethnic Identity: The Macedonians of Greece", Human Rights Watch-Helsinki found:
The Greek Government denies that a Macedonian minority exists in Greece. It refers to ethnic Macedonians as "Slavophones" or "Slav-Speakers". The official Greek position is that the Greek state is ethnically homogenous, the only exception being the Muslim minority in western Thrace—which is in reality a Turkish minority—whose existence was confirmed in 1923 by the Lausanne Treaty ...
HellasItalia, Explain to me how the politically weak Macedonian Republic managed in just 50 years to convince so much of the indigenous population in the parts of Macedonia under Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and Serbia (Kosovo), as well as over a hundred thousand of Macedonian refugees from the Greek Civil War of 1948, who live all over the world, that they are Macedonians? Did the Republic of Macedonia ever have its own schools, churches or media outlets in those areas?
Anyone who wants to call themselves Greek or Bulgarian is free to to so as far as I'm concerned. As far as going into historical theories, everything I've written relates to independent evidence as to what the inhabitants of Macedonia were identifying themselves as before the Greek and Bulgarian indoctrination. You have no right to impose an identity of people who lived over a hundred or a thousand years ago, just like you have no right to impose an identity on me.
Sakis, I've already visited the part of Macedonia that is in Greece. So have many objective Greeks and international observers, including Peter Breen. Read what they have to say, not only about the rights of indigenous Macedonians, but also about the rights of other ethnic minorities.
Slavs, Turks, Albanians,Bulgarians that becames "Macedonians" in 50 years...havin "Alexander the great Airport".YOU HAVE A GREAT PROBLEM. Its so easy to live in peace in europe! But if you want SOLUN(ha ha) the famous sister of ALEX and his horse... ZASTAVA ...everything changes.
HellasItalia4, You are still deliberately ignoring the evidence that ethnic Macedonians (not all) did identify as Macedonians even a hundred years ago, when they had no choice but to attend either Muslim or Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian churches and church-operated schools, that served for nationalist indoctrination. Macedonians also had an independent identity, language and culture in ancient times.
You know that macedonians were greeks! Thats the truth.(It boring to say again about Olimpic games,names, gods,culture,e.c.) And its better for you to accept this, because if Alexandros for example was not a greek its better for us! That meens that he wanted so much to BE a greek that he spreed greek culture to the hole world! But unfotunately....he WAS Greek.(Sorry about my poor English,i would like to write in italian...or greek..but..)
Anybody who wants to discuss the historical origins of Greeks and Macedonians, whether in ancient times or in the past two centuries, can go read historical texts like the ancient Athenian and Roman classics, Eugene Borza's critically acclaimed "In The Shadow of Olympus" and "Makedonika", or Anastasia Karakasidou's "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia". This clip is about the human rights of people living today.
Really Jester? Sorry to make a monkey out of you but your fave historian Borza is clear about the Slavs of FYROM as being Totally UNRELATED to ancient Macedonians. Dont humiliate yourself publicly!!!
kurcak777, Why don't you cite Borza's words? Or better still, why don't you encourage people to read Borza and find out for themselves what he and all his sources say? In the meantime, given the topic of this clip, why don't you focus on the human rights issues, including the findings of various Greek and international researchers and institutions in relation to Greece's human rights record. Btw, I never said I am a Slav of FYROM, so I don't know how your comment relates to me.
Harilaos Trikoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895:
"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins. If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will turn the population into Slavs. If we take it, we will turn all of them into Greeks".
Read Karakasidou's book and the various reports, including European Court rulings, in relation to the Greek state repression, and you might get some idea of why:
1. Ethnic Macedonians in Greece have been systematically assimilated and indoctrinated for over a century by Greek nationalists;
2. It is extremely difficult for the Rainbow Party to be properly heard by potential voters;
3. Ethnic Macedonians are extremely scared to vote for it.
The election system in Greece, just like in any other EU country (and not only of course), is totally anonymous and no one knows what you vote!
I will say it again, visit the Macedonia in Greece and then you will understand.
If i self-identify as Bulgarian and all the people in the Kavala prefecture that i live too and try to prove that the Bulgarians are not Bulgarians but something else...
is that justifies my right for self-identification?
Anybody who wants to discuss the historical origins of Greeks and Macedonians, whether in ancient times or in the past two centuries, can go read historicaly texts like the ancient Athenian and Roman classics, Eugene Borza's critically acclaimed "In The Shadow of Olympus" and "Makedonika", or Anastasia Karakasidou's "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia". This clip is about the human rights of people living today.
Sakis, You need to do a Google search on human rights (of ethnic and religious minorities) in Greece. You can skip anything written by ethnic Macedonians, if you think we are all 'Skopian' spies. Just read the reports from other sources, including the Greek Helsinki Watch. You might indeed see your own country more clearly from a plane.
"Ljubce Boskovski, an ultra-nationalist and a bitter opponent of the current British-led Nato disarmament mission, will be accused by Human Rights Watch, an American-based pressure group, of involvement in the incident in Ljuboten." "Outside, Fasli heard a baying mob shouting "LET US KILL THEM. GAS CHAMBERS FOR SHIPTARS!! Shiptar is a derogatory term for an Albanian."
Kurczak777, Ljube Boskovski had no involvement in the Ljuboten incident. He is only being persecuted by the West because he dared to challenge them when they pressured to give free way to Albanian nationalists that the NATO Secretary General himself branded as 'terrorist thugs'. The West had to appease these terrorist because it relied on them in Kosovo to take down Milosevic.
Why is so offensive "Slavomacedonian"?I find it good!
Everybody khows(Gligorov to)that you are Slavs.Its ok.FYROM having the 35% of Macedonian territory can use the name BUT the 2,5 million of GREEK macedonians(our priminister to) will not accept the crazy ethnogenesis with their greek name, cultura, history. e.c.If you want to create a nation use a new name.its easy!!!
Are you Greeks like Alexander or Aristotele? Do we have your permission to use ...OUR NAME...in the future??
Hellasitalia4, When has Macedonia tried to tell Greeks what they should call themselves? We would be happy if you want to be Macedonians. But if you want to make sense, you need to decide whether you are Macedonians from Greece or Greeks from Macedonia.
"The Greek nation or the Hellenic national body, as Tsoukalas termed it, "was formed by a sum of minorities". (Tsoukalas, 1977:50). ...Yet these developments were not uniform throughout Greece; in other parts of Greek Macedonia, resistance to Hellenization is still audible." - Karakasidou, N.A., Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia 1870-1990, p. 227.
Nineteenth century Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as people of the same ethnicity (Politis 1993:36; Dimaras 1958; Karagatsis, 1952).) Greeks in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteenth century viewed the Macedonians as conquerors of Greece. Only after the Megale Idea took up roots in the Greek scholarship, did Greeks embark on providing and securing 'evidence' for their new political vision.
Harilaos Trikoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895:
"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins. If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will turn the population into Slavs. If we take it, we will turn all of them into Greeks".
Anyone who has doubts about the fact that Greece is a nationalist chauvinist state that systematically violates the rights of ethnic minorities who do not assimilate the myth of a homogenous Greek Orthodox nation (similar to Hitler's myth about the Aryan race), should just do a search on human rights in Greece. This is not only a problem for Macedonians, but for all ethnic and religious minorities in Greece, which the Greek nationalist lobby tries to import into Australia.
I live in the easter part of Macedonia (Greece), in Kavala prefecture, next to it is the Xanthi prefecture in Thrace where 30% of the population is Muslim (Turks, Pomaks and Roma) and believe me i respect them and they have the same rights as me and they coexist with the Greek population in harmony :-)
They have their mosques all over the city, they can go to minority schools, where education is in the Greek and Turkish.
Ahh, neo nationalist Greeks are expressing the very traits that The Human Rights Party fighting against.
I strongly recommend that the Greek neo nationalists re-visit their ancestral ethnicity. You will be surprised at what you will find. No one needs for you to dig too far. Just go back to your great grandparents where you will find that most of you are descendants of either: Macedonians, Turkish Christians, Albanians, Vlahs or Roma. That my dear neo nationalist Greeks is your true identity.
Actually, the truth is Ottoman records record a large Christian Albanian ethnicity before the re-establishment of the Greek Orthodox Church... most Hellenes were to the South, 30% of modern Greece and lived in Peloponnese and Crete... the rest were all assimilated
The US has already recognised the Republic of MAcedonia under its constitutional name. By recognising its sovereignty and independence, it automatically recognises the language the Macedonian Republic chooses for itself, you ignorant neofascist.
Macedonian language is in Pella Katadesmos. Whoever calls that Language as Macedonian and then calls SlavoSkopian language as Macedonian is an IDIOT or IGNORAMUS or an IMBECILE SLAVOSKOPIAN PROPAGANDIST.
Just like they tried to prove, that the Egyptian demotic script in Rosetta Stone is ancient Macedonian, when the script deciphered from Thomas Young and Jean-François Champollion between 1814 and 1824...
the whole world laughs with them!!!
They can't accept that their "Macedonian" language is actually a Bulgarian dialect. They can even understand each other... how could it be possible, if the first speak an ancient language and the Bulgarian a Slav one? ;-)
Sakis, Thank you for posting on this forum to show that we do in fact have a problem with Neo-Greek fascists who deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians within Greece's borders and around the world.
Btw, you are a clown if you think any nationality speaks the same language its ancestors spoke over 2000 years ago.
you live in Australia, i live in Macedonia (Greece) and i can see the truth with my own eyes! If you come here and find more than 3000-5000 (most of them in the Florina prefecture) then i will say that you are right!
Sakis, You might only be able to count the 3,000-5,000, but Human Rights Helsinki has already estimated at least 50,000, in a situation where the majority of the indigenous population is extremely fearful to express its true ethnic identity. I was in the village of Rakovo (Florina region) last year. Hundreds of people were dancing to Macedonian songs, but the musicians would not sing the lyrics. When the Greek songs came on, we had lyrics.
What is laughable is that most of these Bulgarian Slavic renegades, have the audacity to claim Macedonia when themselves are totally unrelated to them, plus they malign Greeks, who continue the Greek heritage and culture which had the real Macedonians and forwarded it in the world!! In fact a tiny part of ancient historical Macedonia is still under occupation by the slavomongols of FYROM.
As for sakisaki69 (or sakhis79, call him what you will), just ignore him. Hairy web tolls tend to wander across every corner of the net looking for attention and validation. Don't give him any.
It's about time that an Australian politician speaks openly about the human rights violations that are committed against ethnic Macedonians for no reason but their determination to preserve their indigenous Macedonian identity. Other Australian politicians have been too scared to do so, especially following the hysterical reactions of Greek nationalists after Australia recognised the independence of the Macedonian Republic (under the absurd name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia).
Btw, Pella, which is one of the places where the 'Vergina Sun' has been found (in a tomb), is in Macedonia (the part that is under Greek rule). Half of Australia's ethnic Macedonians derive from the part of Macedonia that has been under Greek rule since the Balkan Wars of 1912/13. Most of those are refugees from the Greek Civil War of 1948 and are denied access back to their place of birth if they identify as ethnic Macedonians.
There is no international human rights document which gives the modern Greek state copyright over an ancient Macedonian symbol, which can be found in many parts of the world, including Macedonia (divided between Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia), which is where ethnic Macedonians originate from.
Sakis, Do you know anything about the right to self-determination, including ethnic self-identification? I would get into history and fabrications of it with you in another forum, but this clip is about human rights.
O.k i self-determine my self as Italian and choose to use the USA flag as my flag...
is this logical???
As i said in my first message, to respect others, they have to respect me too. When they don't give a shit about me (and don't respect my history, monuments, language, culture, etc), then i don't respect them! ;-)
That's an irrelevant analogy, but there are in fact many Americans of Italian origin who are accepted as Americans. This comment of yours is quite representative of the primitive nationalism that you live in.
we have Slav Macedonians and Greek Macedonians, which they have nothing in common (i mean by ethnicity). If we say the Slavs just Macedonians, do you thing it's fair for the Greeks or the opposite?
It's easy to say, that i'm fascist and ultra nationalist, but the problem is not that easy as you think it is!
Sakis79, No ethnic Macedonian I know of identifies as a Slav Macedonian. That's a slur that you choose for us, thereby disrespecting our right to self-determination (including self-identification). As far as historical theories are concerned, there are plenty of scholars who claim that modern Greeks have more 'Slavic' origins than ancient 'Greek' origins.
we know very well that you people love to have more than one name. but you should admit for one!
if i ask if someone speaks macedonian, i will ask him does he speaks macedonian!! if you ask someone does he speaks greeks language, you will not use "greeks" name at all. beacuse you have so many names and we have got only one.. macedonian. and your language is the only one on the world which says "no" but means "yes". may be there is something to do with your selfishnes.
Do you? Do you know that we have been self determinated as Macedonians at 800 BC and you have to respect this name of ours? Feel free to get into history. Look for my nickname !! I 'll be glad to hear about ANY fact that Greece has fabricated for political goals. Get ready to learn about your brutal propaganda who still brainwashing you!
MACEDONIA TO MACEDONIANS!!!!
vevcanec16 2 years ago
and vardarksans stay in paeonia
background on Peter Breen:
1. charged with misappropriating government funds
2. fired from office for his relationships with Australia's most notorious murderer of Anita Coby
no wonder u have him representing u....thieves i guess feel more at ease in the presence of thieves
Gwrgo 1 year ago
How come the former Prime Minister of FYROM Lubjo Georgevki now calls himself a Bulgarian?
CHANIA1821 2 years ago
- The Macedonians wasnt, aren slavs.
- The FYROMIANS are south slavic people
- So the FYROMIANS are not real Macedonians.
- The slavs wherent in balkans until X century a.C
- The ancient macedonians spoke in greek, wrote in greek and believed to the greek Gods.
- Alexander said: "thanks Gods to have been born Greek"
Sorry Vardaskan, you arent macedonian.
wantedGR 3 years ago
that's right!our name was,is and will be Macedonia
TeaMKD12 4 years ago
our name is the republic of macedonia and will be the republic of macedonia. ziva makedonija, fuck all bulgarians and greeks
sasomaco 4 years ago
All the shit about the "tatar" origin of the Bulgarians is only communist lie!
Botev1912Fan 4 years ago
OK. I am just wandering who is giving the money for this Propaganda?. Macedonians...where were the macedonians in 1878 during the Russian-Turkish war, when Bulgaria gain its independance? Learn some history and than talk. Macedonia was created and was separated from its Motherland Bulgaria. The truth will prevail some day and that day is near!!!
astronaft12 4 years ago
astronaft12, you have same problem as "Greeks", one mother but multiple father's, thats why you have a bit of dust in your brain. Try to land down where you came, Mongolia. Also can you understand that no one listen to you, thats why you "Bulgars" have a special treatment in EU, behind bars.
viktoruzinov 4 years ago
"Try to land down where you came, Mongolia".. man we bulgarians are not from Mongolia, we came from Asia(we are known as the White Europeans in Asia- 10 thousands years ago).The mountain Tian Shan to be exact. I am working on a web site" The contributions of the Ancient Great Bulgarians"(i will give you a link). Give me facts not rumors. I have facts with maps from 17c. where Macedonia is not even a place, it is part of Bulgaria.
astronaft12 4 years ago
There is a millions selfrecognised historians in this world, you are one of those. Anyway put some good glasses when you read in to the history, or ask your Mother why you use Kirilica when this is MAKEDONIA. Also I have respect over any nation, and newer try to tell you that you are Makedonec. So you look alot like Himler, trying to tell me what I am. Shame on you tatarce.
viktoruzinov 4 years ago
ok sakis keep telling yourself macedonia is greek;)
maso69er 5 years ago
FYROM is definitely NOT Greek...
Greek Macedonia and ancient Macedonian history is DEFINITELY Greek!
You came the last 15 years and trying to prove to the world that the white they see is actually black... how do you expect the respond will be?
sakis79 5 years ago 2
I agree with you and I think that the people in the Skopje are communist
markelamonastiri 5 years ago
FYROM violates the interim agreement all the time...
you use Greek symbols (Vergina Sun), you rename Skopje airport to Alexander the Great, despite the fact that there is already an airport in Kavala prefecture, with that name! Do you want more??? Do you still believe that FYROM is a reliable country and respect it's neighbors? Their history, their legacy? How can i respect you, when you don't give a shit and don't respect me? Who can i respect you when you provoke me all the time?
sakis79 5 years ago
lisen here sakis fukis pitchkati tvoja da ti ebam I am Macedonian and not an ugly greek like yourself greek ppl r dogg ugly and i dont give a fuck about your stupid politics Im Macedonian and always will be jebise
SxcPornsta 5 years ago
hahahaha milise o blockheadovski
CHANIA1821 2 years ago
When you call yourselves just Macedonians and your country Macedonia and try to prove to the whole world that the ancient history they knew for centuries now, is false, you have already violated that and the human rights of the other two parties!
And please stop this nonsense about occupation, i believe you are a grown man and can use better arguments (than fake arguments)!
sakis79 5 years ago
The name Macedonians is no more regional than the name Greeks.
sonjich 5 years ago
When did the Republic of Macedonia try to monopolise the name? When did it tell Greece, Bulgaria and Albania that they can't use the name Macedonia? What law about monopolizing a name did the Macedonian Republic violate? Please cite it.
sonjich 5 years ago
Kurczak777, Before you tell somebody "When you will learn to write properly English..", you should learn that the proper way to say that is "When you learn to write English properly". Or maybe your problem is not only that you can't communicate properly in English, but you just can't communicate properly in any language.
sonjich 5 years ago
Some of the fanatical Greeks in this thread are quite obviously not even descendants of the ancient Hellenes who saw the Macedonians as a foreign race, let alone of the ancient Macedonians. The manners and intelligence of these new Greek chauvinists are proof enough that they've skipped the evolutionary process between neanderthal and human being. Demosthenes would be spitting fire in his grave if he knew who was speaking on behalf of Hellenes today.
sonjich 5 years ago
If its for humans only then what the fuck you are doing there? When you will learn to write properly English and not sound like a complete retard, try to post some more.
kurczak777 5 years ago
kur czak777, you sound like you are under the influence of some kind of drug. Try to calm down your self, then wipe of your tongue with real staff...
viktoruzinov 5 years ago
kurczak777 If You are not cilvilized enough to participate in a discussion please restrain yourself from posting comments. You obviously care very much for the Macedonian people to be back watching this clip many times, or you are just a loser with nothing to do. You seem to visit this as some sort of deviate to get pleasure out of it. I wonder if you would say what you post here to someone in person! Its a shame your parents didnt use contraception!
aviao13 5 years ago
Cont.d Part 4 - Though all of this has strengthened the resolve for Macedonian self determination one nation one Pain. Looking at most recent history we have suffered the most for Macedonia and it will be ill and defeating for us to accept any other name and it will never happen. As far as 2000yrs ago...Alexander Who? Who cares?
aviao13 5 years ago
O.k let's forget for a while the history thing and see it from another side...
the Macedonia region is among Greece, FYROM and Bulgaria, so we have Greek Macedonians, Slav Macedonians and Bulgarian Macedonians (the term Macedonians is a regional and not ethnical)...
is this legal (from a country) to monopolize that name? Isn't that against the human rights of the other two parties?
sakis79 5 years ago
The fact that Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania occupied parts of Macedonia by force and indoctrinated large parts of the population into being Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian or Albanian does not mean there are no ethnic Macedonians in those regions. Don't force yourself to be blind to the human rights reports about the ethnic Macedonians in those regions.
sonjich 5 years ago
Part 3 - The Republic of Macedonia and its people are going through it at the moment let us decide and resolve this issue ourselves with no interference and it will be better for all, the difficult thing is that Macedonia went from Feudalism under the Ottomans to Capitalism and Ethnic conditioning (By 3 interested parties Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria,) through Uprisings WW1 WW2 ethnic cleansing, Communism then Democracy all in less than 100 years. We need a break
aviao13 5 years ago
Cont.d Part 2 - Greece Serbia Bulgaria were all going through this in the 1800s when there wasn't an information superhighway I'm sure if we looked at them under the microscope we would see them make mistakes. They all went from Feudalism to Capitalism immediately with no time lag.
aviao13 5 years ago
Part 1 Every nation has had a process of building it self thorough rediscovery of its roots and reason for existence. If Greece was doing this today they would face similar problems to what Macedonia does. After all we are not dogs to determine our genealogy to see whether we are a purebreed....Cont.d
aviao13 5 years ago
You cannot criticise a nation for one dictator(1939). I know what he did to the Slavs (slavomacedonians) and i know what our neghtbours did to Greek people. But the problem with FYROM today is only the Name we describe different people.Hellas is maybe the only state that want FYROM unite.(I hate the name fyrom but its our agreement and i respect it)
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
typo... 180 years***
deanomak 5 years ago
And since Macedonia became independent, Greece has consently invaded in internal affairs, not only that but we had a Macedonian War... of course democracy won't be perfect right away, look at America, only in the 1960's.. 140 years after independence did they become a true democracy
deanomak 5 years ago
IstorTheFanatic, I don't need a comment from anybody to make me what I am.
Since you appear to have comprehension problems, let me indicate to you that citation from Prime Minsiter Trikoupis points to the fact that ethnic Macedonians who now identify as Greeks or Bulgarians have ancestors who did not identify as such until the Greek and Bulgarian nationalist assimilation in Macedonia.
sonjich 5 years ago
Its funny to receive lessons of democracy and respect from FYROM.(and other neighbors)
A new Economist Intelligence Unit survey of 167 countries places Greece among the world's 28 "full democracies".
Six other countries Bulgaria (49th), Romania (50th), Croatia (51st), Serbia (55th), Montenegro (58th) and FYROM (68th) also fall in the "flawed democracies" group.
Ranked 83rd, 87th and 88th, respectively, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Turkey are in the 30 nation "hybrid regimes" group.
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
democracy and greeks??? do not match..in reality.
what the name metaxas meens to you. not the ouzo. i mean general metaxas. if you know what he did to the macedonians, you will be ashamed to conect greeks and democracy.
nicksae 5 years ago
Nice interesting post! But, have you seen what happens if you put diamonds in a blender? Check it out blend.lostfrog 'dot' com
smashmano 5 years ago
In June 2004 the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance noted that "persons wishing to express their Macedonian, Turkish or other identity incur the hostility of the population". The commission encouraged the Greek authorities to take further steps toward the recognition of the freedom of association and expression of members of the Macedonian and Turkish communities.
StojnaPop 5 years ago
In May 2004 the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights urged Greece to reconsider its position regarding the recognition of ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities, and invited it to ratify the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities 1995.
StojnaPop 5 years ago
In "Denying Ethnic Identity: The Macedonians of Greece", Human Rights Watch-Helsinki found:
The Greek Government denies that a Macedonian minority exists in Greece. It refers to ethnic Macedonians as "Slavophones" or "Slav-Speakers". The official Greek position is that the Greek state is ethnically homogenous, the only exception being the Muslim minority in western Thrace—which is in reality a Turkish minority—whose existence was confirmed in 1923 by the Lausanne Treaty ...
StojnaPop 5 years ago
HellasItalia, Explain to me how the politically weak Macedonian Republic managed in just 50 years to convince so much of the indigenous population in the parts of Macedonia under Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and Serbia (Kosovo), as well as over a hundred thousand of Macedonian refugees from the Greek Civil War of 1948, who live all over the world, that they are Macedonians? Did the Republic of Macedonia ever have its own schools, churches or media outlets in those areas?
sonjich 5 years ago
Anyone who wants to call themselves Greek or Bulgarian is free to to so as far as I'm concerned. As far as going into historical theories, everything I've written relates to independent evidence as to what the inhabitants of Macedonia were identifying themselves as before the Greek and Bulgarian indoctrination. You have no right to impose an identity of people who lived over a hundred or a thousand years ago, just like you have no right to impose an identity on me.
sonjich 5 years ago
Sakis, I've already visited the part of Macedonia that is in Greece. So have many objective Greeks and international observers, including Peter Breen. Read what they have to say, not only about the rights of indigenous Macedonians, but also about the rights of other ethnic minorities.
sonjich 5 years ago
What about your identity?
Slavs, Turks, Albanians,Bulgarians that becames "Macedonians" in 50 years...havin "Alexander the great Airport".YOU HAVE A GREAT PROBLEM. Its so easy to live in peace in europe! But if you want SOLUN(ha ha) the famous sister of ALEX and his horse... ZASTAVA ...everything changes.
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
HellasItalia4, You are still deliberately ignoring the evidence that ethnic Macedonians (not all) did identify as Macedonians even a hundred years ago, when they had no choice but to attend either Muslim or Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian churches and church-operated schools, that served for nationalist indoctrination. Macedonians also had an independent identity, language and culture in ancient times.
sonjich 5 years ago
no no dont talk about ancient times!
You know that macedonians were greeks! Thats the truth.(It boring to say again about Olimpic games,names, gods,culture,e.c.) And its better for you to accept this, because if Alexandros for example was not a greek its better for us! That meens that he wanted so much to BE a greek that he spreed greek culture to the hole world! But unfotunately....he WAS Greek.(Sorry about my poor English,i would like to write in italian...or greek..but..)
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
HellasItalia4, you must have missed this:
Anybody who wants to discuss the historical origins of Greeks and Macedonians, whether in ancient times or in the past two centuries, can go read historical texts like the ancient Athenian and Roman classics, Eugene Borza's critically acclaimed "In The Shadow of Olympus" and "Makedonika", or Anastasia Karakasidou's "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia". This clip is about the human rights of people living today.
sonjich 5 years ago
Really Jester? Sorry to make a monkey out of you but your fave historian Borza is clear about the Slavs of FYROM as being Totally UNRELATED to ancient Macedonians. Dont humiliate yourself publicly!!!
kurczak777 5 years ago
kurcak777, Why don't you cite Borza's words? Or better still, why don't you encourage people to read Borza and find out for themselves what he and all his sources say? In the meantime, given the topic of this clip, why don't you focus on the human rights issues, including the findings of various Greek and international researchers and institutions in relation to Greece's human rights record. Btw, I never said I am a Slav of FYROM, so I don't know how your comment relates to me.
sonjich 5 years ago
One more time for HellasItalia4,
Harilaos Trikoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895:
"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins. If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will turn the population into Slavs. If we take it, we will turn all of them into Greeks".
StojnaPop 5 years ago
What about this comment Sonja? Does it make you Macedonian??
IstorTheMacedonian 5 years ago
Read Karakasidou's book and the various reports, including European Court rulings, in relation to the Greek state repression, and you might get some idea of why:
1. Ethnic Macedonians in Greece have been systematically assimilated and indoctrinated for over a century by Greek nationalists;
2. It is extremely difficult for the Rainbow Party to be properly heard by potential voters;
3. Ethnic Macedonians are extremely scared to vote for it.
sonjich 5 years ago
The election system in Greece, just like in any other EU country (and not only of course), is totally anonymous and no one knows what you vote!
I will say it again, visit the Macedonia in Greece and then you will understand.
If i self-identify as Bulgarian and all the people in the Kavala prefecture that i live too and try to prove that the Bulgarians are not Bulgarians but something else...
is that justifies my right for self-identification?
sakis79 5 years ago
Anybody who wants to discuss the historical origins of Greeks and Macedonians, whether in ancient times or in the past two centuries, can go read historicaly texts like the ancient Athenian and Roman classics, Eugene Borza's critically acclaimed "In The Shadow of Olympus" and "Makedonika", or Anastasia Karakasidou's "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia". This clip is about the human rights of people living today.
sonjich 5 years ago
Sakis, You need to do a Google search on human rights (of ethnic and religious minorities) in Greece. You can skip anything written by ethnic Macedonians, if you think we are all 'Skopian' spies. Just read the reports from other sources, including the Greek Helsinki Watch. You might indeed see your own country more clearly from a plane.
StojnaPop 5 years ago
The Telegraph - August 26, 2001
"Ljubce Boskovski, an ultra-nationalist and a bitter opponent of the current British-led Nato disarmament mission, will be accused by Human Rights Watch, an American-based pressure group, of involvement in the incident in Ljuboten." "Outside, Fasli heard a baying mob shouting "LET US KILL THEM. GAS CHAMBERS FOR SHIPTARS!! Shiptar is a derogatory term for an Albanian."
kurczak777 5 years ago
Kurczak777, Ljube Boskovski had no involvement in the Ljuboten incident. He is only being persecuted by the West because he dared to challenge them when they pressured to give free way to Albanian nationalists that the NATO Secretary General himself branded as 'terrorist thugs'. The West had to appease these terrorist because it relied on them in Kosovo to take down Milosevic.
sonjich 5 years ago
Why is so offensive "Slavomacedonian"?I find it good!
Everybody khows(Gligorov to)that you are Slavs.Its ok.FYROM having the 35% of Macedonian territory can use the name BUT the 2,5 million of GREEK macedonians(our priminister to) will not accept the crazy ethnogenesis with their greek name, cultura, history. e.c.If you want to create a nation use a new name.its easy!!!
Are you Greeks like Alexander or Aristotele? Do we have your permission to use ...OUR NAME...in the future??
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
Hellasitalia4, When has Macedonia tried to tell Greeks what they should call themselves? We would be happy if you want to be Macedonians. But if you want to make sense, you need to decide whether you are Macedonians from Greece or Greeks from Macedonia.
sonjich 5 years ago
"The Greek nation or the Hellenic national body, as Tsoukalas termed it, "was formed by a sum of minorities". (Tsoukalas, 1977:50). ...Yet these developments were not uniform throughout Greece; in other parts of Greek Macedonia, resistance to Hellenization is still audible." - Karakasidou, N.A., Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia 1870-1990, p. 227.
StojnaPop 5 years ago
First of all i am a communist and my grandfathers was fighting with the slavomacedonians in Macedonia (gr.1948).
If you want, call neofascist your friends, USA, State Department, for that official comment...
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
Nineteenth century Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as people of the same ethnicity (Politis 1993:36; Dimaras 1958; Karagatsis, 1952).) Greeks in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteenth century viewed the Macedonians as conquerors of Greece. Only after the Megale Idea took up roots in the Greek scholarship, did Greeks embark on providing and securing 'evidence' for their new political vision.
StojnaPop 5 years ago
Harilaos Trikoupis, Greek Prime Minister from 1882 to 1895:
"When the great war comes, Macedonia will become Greek or Bulgarian, according to who wins. If it is taken by the Bulgarians, they will turn the population into Slavs. If we take it, we will turn all of them into Greeks".
StojnaPop 5 years ago
Anyone who has doubts about the fact that Greece is a nationalist chauvinist state that systematically violates the rights of ethnic minorities who do not assimilate the myth of a homogenous Greek Orthodox nation (similar to Hitler's myth about the Aryan race), should just do a search on human rights in Greece. This is not only a problem for Macedonians, but for all ethnic and religious minorities in Greece, which the Greek nationalist lobby tries to import into Australia.
sonjich 5 years ago
I live in the easter part of Macedonia (Greece), in Kavala prefecture, next to it is the Xanthi prefecture in Thrace where 30% of the population is Muslim (Turks, Pomaks and Roma) and believe me i respect them and they have the same rights as me and they coexist with the Greek population in harmony :-)
They have their mosques all over the city, they can go to minority schools, where education is in the Greek and Turkish.
sakis79 5 years ago
I think you have to check your sources again, or better take the airplane and see it for yourself ;-)
sakis79 5 years ago
Ahh, neo nationalist Greeks are expressing the very traits that The Human Rights Party fighting against.
I strongly recommend that the Greek neo nationalists re-visit their ancestral ethnicity. You will be surprised at what you will find. No one needs for you to dig too far. Just go back to your great grandparents where you will find that most of you are descendants of either: Macedonians, Turkish Christians, Albanians, Vlahs or Roma. That my dear neo nationalist Greeks is your true identity.
kczoran 5 years ago
So all the other ethnicities existed except the Greek one...
hmmm, nice neo fascist, racist, point of view from someone that "supports" human rights!
Nice job keep going! ;-)
sakis79 5 years ago
Actually, the truth is Ottoman records record a large Christian Albanian ethnicity before the re-establishment of the Greek Orthodox Church... most Hellenes were to the South, 30% of modern Greece and lived in Peloponnese and Crete... the rest were all assimilated
deanomak 5 years ago
State Department
October 19, 2006
...you recognize also the existence of Macedonia language and ethnicity?
MR.CASEY... The United States Government does not recognize languages or other sort of sub-national groups like that...
NATO and U.E will never recognise macedonian
nation or country Macedonia. Check your friends.
I am sorry but we (Hellas) will defend our history. Peace! (its better for you)
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
The US has already recognised the Republic of MAcedonia under its constitutional name. By recognising its sovereignty and independence, it automatically recognises the language the Macedonian Republic chooses for itself, you ignorant neofascist.
sonjich 5 years ago
State Department
October 19, 2006
...you recognize also the existence of Macedonia language and ethnicity?
MR.CASEY... The United States Government does not recognize languages or other sort of sub-national groups like that...
NATO and U.E will never recognise macedonian
nation or country Macedonia. Check your friends.
I am sorry but we (Hellas) will defend our history. Peace! (its better for you)
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
State Department
October 19, 2006
...you recognize also the existence of Macedonia language and ethnicity?
MR.CASEY... The United States Government does not recognize languages or other sort of sub-national groups like that...
NATO and U.E will never recognise "macedonian
nation" or country "Macedonia". Check your "friends".
I am sorry but we (Hellas) will defend our history. Peace! (its better for you)
HellasItalia4 5 years ago
Macedonian language is in Pella Katadesmos. Whoever calls that Language as Macedonian and then calls SlavoSkopian language as Macedonian is an IDIOT or IGNORAMUS or an IMBECILE SLAVOSKOPIAN PROPAGANDIST.
IstorTheMacedonian 5 years ago
Just like they tried to prove, that the Egyptian demotic script in Rosetta Stone is ancient Macedonian, when the script deciphered from Thomas Young and Jean-François Champollion between 1814 and 1824...
the whole world laughs with them!!!
They can't accept that their "Macedonian" language is actually a Bulgarian dialect. They can even understand each other... how could it be possible, if the first speak an ancient language and the Bulgarian a Slav one? ;-)
sakis79 5 years ago
Sakis, Thank you for posting on this forum to show that we do in fact have a problem with Neo-Greek fascists who deny the existence of millions of ethnic Macedonians within Greece's borders and around the world.
Btw, you are a clown if you think any nationality speaks the same language its ancestors spoke over 2000 years ago.
sonjich 5 years ago
Millions? That is the problem with you...
you live in Australia, i live in Macedonia (Greece) and i can see the truth with my own eyes! If you come here and find more than 3000-5000 (most of them in the Florina prefecture) then i will say that you are right!
sakis79 5 years ago
Sakis, You might only be able to count the 3,000-5,000, but Human Rights Helsinki has already estimated at least 50,000, in a situation where the majority of the indigenous population is extremely fearful to express its true ethnic identity. I was in the village of Rakovo (Florina region) last year. Hundreds of people were dancing to Macedonian songs, but the musicians would not sing the lyrics. When the Greek songs came on, we had lyrics.
sonjich 5 years ago
How come then and the Rainbow Party took only ~5000 votes...
and less than half of the votes were from the Macedonia region in Greece?
It decided to participate only in the EU elections and not in the national, the years 1999 and 2004.
I will send you the link with the results in pm because when i post the message with the url nothing happens (i guess it's a youtube restriction).
sakis79 5 years ago
What is laughable is that most of these Bulgarian Slavic renegades, have the audacity to claim Macedonia when themselves are totally unrelated to them, plus they malign Greeks, who continue the Greek heritage and culture which had the real Macedonians and forwarded it in the world!! In fact a tiny part of ancient historical Macedonia is still under occupation by the slavomongols of FYROM.
kurczak777 5 years ago
Impressive!
As for sakisaki69 (or sakhis79, call him what you will), just ignore him. Hairy web tolls tend to wander across every corner of the net looking for attention and validation. Don't give him any.
mage1903 5 years ago
It's about time that an Australian politician speaks openly about the human rights violations that are committed against ethnic Macedonians for no reason but their determination to preserve their indigenous Macedonian identity. Other Australian politicians have been too scared to do so, especially following the hysterical reactions of Greek nationalists after Australia recognised the independence of the Macedonian Republic (under the absurd name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia).
StojnaPop 5 years ago
Btw, Pella, which is one of the places where the 'Vergina Sun' has been found (in a tomb), is in Macedonia (the part that is under Greek rule). Half of Australia's ethnic Macedonians derive from the part of Macedonia that has been under Greek rule since the Balkan Wars of 1912/13. Most of those are refugees from the Greek Civil War of 1948 and are denied access back to their place of birth if they identify as ethnic Macedonians.
sonjich 5 years ago
There is no international human rights document which gives the modern Greek state copyright over an ancient Macedonian symbol, which can be found in many parts of the world, including Macedonia (divided between Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia), which is where ethnic Macedonians originate from.
sonjich 5 years ago
Sakis, Do you know anything about the right to self-determination, including ethnic self-identification? I would get into history and fabrications of it with you in another forum, but this clip is about human rights.
sonjich 5 years ago
O.k i self-determine my self as Italian and choose to use the USA flag as my flag...
is this logical???
As i said in my first message, to respect others, they have to respect me too. When they don't give a shit about me (and don't respect my history, monuments, language, culture, etc), then i don't respect them! ;-)
sakis79 5 years ago
That's an irrelevant analogy, but there are in fact many Americans of Italian origin who are accepted as Americans. This comment of yours is quite representative of the primitive nationalism that you live in.
sonjich 5 years ago
Let's take it from the begging...
we have Slav Macedonians and Greek Macedonians, which they have nothing in common (i mean by ethnicity). If we say the Slavs just Macedonians, do you thing it's fair for the Greeks or the opposite?
It's easy to say, that i'm fascist and ultra nationalist, but the problem is not that easy as you think it is!
sakis79 5 years ago
Sakis79, No ethnic Macedonian I know of identifies as a Slav Macedonian. That's a slur that you choose for us, thereby disrespecting our right to self-determination (including self-identification). As far as historical theories are concerned, there are plenty of scholars who claim that modern Greeks have more 'Slavic' origins than ancient 'Greek' origins.
sonjich 5 years ago
we know very well that you people love to have more than one name. but you should admit for one!
if i ask if someone speaks macedonian, i will ask him does he speaks macedonian!! if you ask someone does he speaks greeks language, you will not use "greeks" name at all. beacuse you have so many names and we have got only one.. macedonian. and your language is the only one on the world which says "no" but means "yes". may be there is something to do with your selfishnes.
nicksae 5 years ago
Do you? Do you know that we have been self determinated as Macedonians at 800 BC and you have to respect this name of ours? Feel free to get into history. Look for my nickname !! I 'll be glad to hear about ANY fact that Greece has fabricated for political goals. Get ready to learn about your brutal propaganda who still brainwashing you!
IstorTheMacedonian 5 years ago
Yeah yeah and you people respect the others, by using Greek symbols on this video as "Macedonians" (Vergina Sun from Pella)...
Give me a break and get a life... if you want others to respect you, you have to respect them too!!!
sakis79 5 years ago
sakis how many cocks per day do you saki saki fag :D
punisher65 5 years ago