Eugentics influenced the cannon of beliefs Eliot would have encountered too. The eugentic system of science kept trying to link physiological characteristics with behaviors - so someone with a big nose or a certain shape head, for example, was considered to be a likely criminal or a trouble maker. The study has since been discredited, but it had a huge influence in its day.
As an American as Jewish as Litvinoff I TOO object to that unwarranted attack on the great T.S. Eliot.
I am sure Eliot did have a mild Anti-Semetic streak about him but there is certainly a difference between merely holding a harmless--if perhaps unkind and unfair--opinion on a group of people and writing and saying that such feelings should be acted upon and that group expunged.
For instance, I live near Los Angeles, and the odd poor-Mexican joke is oft heard, a stereotype--but no malice.
@jonvil2009 It's a great poem. One thing that annoys me though is the needless reference to Pound - as if he were any more anti-semetic than Eliot. Unlike Eliot, Pound 's reputation has suffered unceasingly from such remarks, even though instances of anti-semitism are much less overt in his work. It is not Jewish inferiority which marks his anti-semitism, but a hatred for usura. He rails against Churchill and the Bank of England just as much as the Rothschilds, and attacks are always specific.
@Findiglay Well the problem with Pound is essentially he engaged in propaganda for the Nazis. And in whatever guise he attacked Jews (be it as userers etc... he made a real moral "error" in engaging in this).
I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories and I realize that even today there are all sorts of fabrications in relation to the Rothchilds family (all the way to the Queen of England etc... as well as Churchill). Ignorance stupidity etc... can be the downfall of any civilization cont..
@Findiglay and such ignorance and stupidity should be challenged especially in relation to such an insidious and pathalogical hatred as anti-semitism tends to be in our society. Therefore the poems focus on Pound for me at least was appropriate (to say the least).
@jonvil2009 But Pound, unlike Eliot, did renounce his anti-semitism in later life. He did not become truly anti-semetic, really, until after the war, when he was locked up St Elizabeths. And it's false to say that Pound supported the Nazis. He supported Mussolini because he admired his economic policies. If you listen to his so called 'propaganda', the broadcasts from Italian radio, they're blathering rants about the nature of money. No one really understood what he was talking about ..
@Findiglay You may be making a good point here. I will have to look into this further I think before passing judgment. My understanding was that he was an Axis supporter and engaged in propaganda against the Allies in WW2. However you may be right. It may have been a matter of degree. I will do a bit of reading about his life and maybe get back with you regarding your comment. It is interesting regardless and I do thank you for making me aware of your views on the subject -as I may be mistaken.
@jonvil2009 Despite all the enemies Pound made, he had a good heart and a great mind. He wasnt the type to hurt a fly.
He is a very polarizing figure however, and a few biographies and critiques I've come across are rather scathing. The only one I would recommend would be 'The Pound Era' by Hugh Kenner. Its a huge work that encompasses all of modernism, and is by far the greatest piece of criticism I've ever come across. Kenner knew Pound from after WW2 and is quite sypathetic.
@Findiglay I think regardless he displayed poor judgment even if he broadcast for the Italian fascists. I doubt I could ever really regard him in a favorable light on that basis alone. And there have been many seemingly harmless folk who have done the world great harm ( the benign technocrat Eichmann comes to mind). Anyway I will probably get back with you soon on this subject (for which I plead ignorance right now)
@jonvil2009 I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but Eliot never broadcasted for Fascists. Pound did. We are debating Eliot, not Pound.
i found Litvinoff's reaction entirely justified. But Litvinoff wrote about Eliot in the light of terrible modern genocide. Eliot never participated in the propagation of these ideas, but his poetry was linked to this.
Please let's consider racism as a social concept, not something that was actively propagated by Eliot.
@jonvil2009 The Italians even suspected him at one point of sending coded messages to the Americans. And if you look through Pound's work, you stuggle to find anything as blatantly prejudiced as contained in Eliot.
The point should be though, to challenge stupidity, but not overide an entire legacy because of one mistake. We appreciate Eliot far more than Pound today - but Pound was the greater poet (in my opinion). Eliot was no less anti-semetic then Pound, yet critics wrote him off
@jonvil2009 for years, because of his 'traitorous' support for Mussolini (Italy was his home!). I just think the comment about Pound was needless and unfair. Why didn't they mention Wyndham Lewis? - an outright supporter of Hitler. If this were a documentary on Pound, they wouldn't likely mention Eliot when it came to the 'Nazi' party. But there is no documentary on Pound.... Nor did he win the Nobel Prize -
Remember the dedication of the Waste Land - il miglior fabbro.
@Findiglay I must admit. I do have a slight handicap because poetry is not my forte and more specifically the life of Pound and Elliot I am familiar with in a more general context (which is not the case with you obviously)....
Eugentics influenced the cannon of beliefs Eliot would have encountered too. The eugentic system of science kept trying to link physiological characteristics with behaviors - so someone with a big nose or a certain shape head, for example, was considered to be a likely criminal or a trouble maker. The study has since been discredited, but it had a huge influence in its day.
iymamum 1 month ago
As an American as Jewish as Litvinoff I TOO object to that unwarranted attack on the great T.S. Eliot.
I am sure Eliot did have a mild Anti-Semetic streak about him but there is certainly a difference between merely holding a harmless--if perhaps unkind and unfair--opinion on a group of people and writing and saying that such feelings should be acted upon and that group expunged.
For instance, I live near Los Angeles, and the odd poor-Mexican joke is oft heard, a stereotype--but no malice.
obiwanobiwan13 1 year ago
The poem by Litvinoff was heart wrenching. I commend the BBC for bringing up this very troubling topic....
jonvil2009 1 year ago
@jonvil2009 It's a great poem. One thing that annoys me though is the needless reference to Pound - as if he were any more anti-semetic than Eliot. Unlike Eliot, Pound 's reputation has suffered unceasingly from such remarks, even though instances of anti-semitism are much less overt in his work. It is not Jewish inferiority which marks his anti-semitism, but a hatred for usura. He rails against Churchill and the Bank of England just as much as the Rothschilds, and attacks are always specific.
Findiglay 1 year ago
@Findiglay Well the problem with Pound is essentially he engaged in propaganda for the Nazis. And in whatever guise he attacked Jews (be it as userers etc... he made a real moral "error" in engaging in this).
I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories and I realize that even today there are all sorts of fabrications in relation to the Rothchilds family (all the way to the Queen of England etc... as well as Churchill). Ignorance stupidity etc... can be the downfall of any civilization cont..
jonvil2009 1 year ago
@Findiglay and such ignorance and stupidity should be challenged especially in relation to such an insidious and pathalogical hatred as anti-semitism tends to be in our society. Therefore the poems focus on Pound for me at least was appropriate (to say the least).
jonvil2009 1 year ago
@jonvil2009 But Pound, unlike Eliot, did renounce his anti-semitism in later life. He did not become truly anti-semetic, really, until after the war, when he was locked up St Elizabeths. And it's false to say that Pound supported the Nazis. He supported Mussolini because he admired his economic policies. If you listen to his so called 'propaganda', the broadcasts from Italian radio, they're blathering rants about the nature of money. No one really understood what he was talking about ..
Findiglay 1 year ago
@Findiglay You may be making a good point here. I will have to look into this further I think before passing judgment. My understanding was that he was an Axis supporter and engaged in propaganda against the Allies in WW2. However you may be right. It may have been a matter of degree. I will do a bit of reading about his life and maybe get back with you regarding your comment. It is interesting regardless and I do thank you for making me aware of your views on the subject -as I may be mistaken.
jonvil2009 1 year ago
@jonvil2009 Despite all the enemies Pound made, he had a good heart and a great mind. He wasnt the type to hurt a fly.
He is a very polarizing figure however, and a few biographies and critiques I've come across are rather scathing. The only one I would recommend would be 'The Pound Era' by Hugh Kenner. Its a huge work that encompasses all of modernism, and is by far the greatest piece of criticism I've ever come across. Kenner knew Pound from after WW2 and is quite sypathetic.
Findiglay 1 year ago
@Findiglay I think regardless he displayed poor judgment even if he broadcast for the Italian fascists. I doubt I could ever really regard him in a favorable light on that basis alone. And there have been many seemingly harmless folk who have done the world great harm ( the benign technocrat Eichmann comes to mind). Anyway I will probably get back with you soon on this subject (for which I plead ignorance right now)
jonvil2009 1 year ago
@jonvil2009 I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but Eliot never broadcasted for Fascists. Pound did. We are debating Eliot, not Pound.
i found Litvinoff's reaction entirely justified. But Litvinoff wrote about Eliot in the light of terrible modern genocide. Eliot never participated in the propagation of these ideas, but his poetry was linked to this.
Please let's consider racism as a social concept, not something that was actively propagated by Eliot.
domkc89 1 month ago
@jonvil2009 The Italians even suspected him at one point of sending coded messages to the Americans. And if you look through Pound's work, you stuggle to find anything as blatantly prejudiced as contained in Eliot.
The point should be though, to challenge stupidity, but not overide an entire legacy because of one mistake. We appreciate Eliot far more than Pound today - but Pound was the greater poet (in my opinion). Eliot was no less anti-semetic then Pound, yet critics wrote him off
Findiglay 1 year ago
@jonvil2009 for years, because of his 'traitorous' support for Mussolini (Italy was his home!). I just think the comment about Pound was needless and unfair. Why didn't they mention Wyndham Lewis? - an outright supporter of Hitler. If this were a documentary on Pound, they wouldn't likely mention Eliot when it came to the 'Nazi' party. But there is no documentary on Pound.... Nor did he win the Nobel Prize -
Remember the dedication of the Waste Land - il miglior fabbro.
Findiglay 1 year ago
@Findiglay I must admit. I do have a slight handicap because poetry is not my forte and more specifically the life of Pound and Elliot I am familiar with in a more general context (which is not the case with you obviously)....
jonvil2009 1 year ago