Pope became Protestant P2 of 2

[meinaim]

Luke 23,42 is one example against RCCs theological formula, as you call it so. He believed and was saved right at the cross.

1. John starts off by saying: for you to know you ARE saved

The "ifs" clearly describe the way of life of a true reborn Christian. This is the life that the saved Christian is growing in. Becoming more and more like Christ, gworing in his image, but from the moment of conversion on being blameless in the eyes of God.

Most Christians by name fail this test!

[HolyBeThyName]

Luke 23:42 is not an example against the RCCs theological formula because the RCC has what is called "baptism of desire" which pertians directly to Luke 23:42. Also we Catholics "Know" that if we endure in faith till the end of our life on Earth, then we will indeed obtain salvation, which is what John is speaking of when its put in context with all of scripture. Catholics agree that Jesus did save us, but to receive his grace there must be a response from the person being saved.

[HolyBeThyName]

Todd, infact the Book of James says that we are not justified by faith alone, but instead by works. Again, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that these are "our" works in and of ourselves, but instead its God working through us when we accept his graces through "Free Will". You certainly wouldn't claim that a person who Believes(has faith) but denies God's graces is someone who is "Justified to God" would you ? If u do, then u would be disagreeing with the Apostle James in Holy Scripture.

[meinaim]

I am Sven, this is just a "video" and Todd is the one speaking.

You wanted a biblevers for Faith alone.

Vers 10 of Ephesians clearly adds works to faith, or better fruit. But this is the result, not the cause.

See. Salvation, which is the Rebirth, brings a change of nature. Like becoming a new tree. This new tree will bring up "works" / Fruit that will proof it´s nature.

So you ARE saved by Faith and Fruit proofs that you are.

This is the conclusion of Ephesians and James my friend.

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, u say fruit proves that u are "justified"...We Catholics agree with that. The problem is that u protestants simply claim that these fruits are "justified' for other men to see, but we Catholics say that we are "justified" not to men, but to God. Jesus himself said to do works in secret so that other men would not see them, but instead God would see them.

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, and again the "works" i am speaking of is not "our" works, but the works that God does through us. So its really God doing the "WORKS".

[meinaim]

"u protestants simply claim"

Man the bible tells you what to believe. By their fruit you will know them. By their works you will see and yes it is God who brings them up in a Christians life.

That is not the issue!

The issue is being saved is not a process, it is supernatural action by God.

With this a sinner is justified before God and capable to understand the word and obey - result is fruit or good works.

SO works can not be part of salvation, they are the result, the proof.

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, so now u want to change the subject from "justification" to "salvation" ?

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, Catholic teaching is that we are saved through Jesus' sacrifice if we respond to him,...Protestants also believe that people must respond to Christ's sacrifice in order to be saved. The difference is "what is the response required ?"...Holy Scripture tells us what that response must be.

[HolyBeThyName]

Catholic Church's formula on gaining salvation is.......

Baptism + Grace + Faith(in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins) + Repentence + Confession + Works(not our works, but instead God working through us when we except his Graces when offered to us) = Salvation

[mrumley1]

The Bible's formula for "gaining" salvation is contingent on the mere grace of Christ and such as to the exclusion of all works, for there is no distinction to be made when all have falllen short of the glory of God, and our righteousness are as filthy rags before the Lord Almighty (Cf. Romans 3:20-30; Isaiah 64:6).

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 NOT BY FAITH ALONE james 2:24 IF I HAVE FAITH GREAT ENOUGH TO MOVE MOUNTAINS BUT DO NOT HAVE LOVE I AM NOTHING 1 Cor 13:2  SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION 2 Thes 2:13 ALL THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS Rev 20:13 DEPART FROM ME... INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE.... FOR I WAS HUNGRY AND U GAVE ME NO FOOD THIRSTY AND U GAVE ME NO DRINK A STRANGER AND U GAVE ME NO WELCOME NAKED AND U GAVE ME NO CLOTHING ILL AND IN PRISON AND U DID NOT VISIT ME... THEY WILL SAY LORD Matthew 25:41-44

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387  I suppose Paul is wrong then, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." (Romans 3:28)

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Are you willing to contradict the words of St. Paul? "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." (Romans 3:28)

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 No i do not contridict but forfill. I suppose u would say that James 24 contridicts Romans 3:28 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24) The thing u have to realise is Paul did not say apart from works,but added, OF THE LAW. What Law is he talking about what does he mean? Well lets take a look at another of his passages shall we. "To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law)....

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Then why does Paul later go on to add, " However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)? Take note of God justifying the "ungodly." Paul did not say, "Those who are super pious and work very hard" (in fact, he actually negates that idea in verse 4), but rather says that the one who wakes up in his vomit after a night of hard drinking, turns and trusts in Christ -- he is the one justified.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 Yes he did say it is criedited as rightiousness but how much? for "unless ur righteousness surpass that of the pharisess u will not enter into heaven" - Jesus christ - So as the LORD said u must not have a little righteousness but (at least) more then the pharisess. Learn the difference between justification and sanctification the former allows u to presue the latter while the latter converts u into christ and thus into the kingdom.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ." (1 Corinthians 9:20-23) Uhmm not ouside GODs LAW! What is GODs law? It is the words of Christ. "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away" -Jesus the christ. So paul is not saying works apart from GODS law but he is refering to the Mossaic Law. Well then What is the Mossaic Law lets dwelve into the bible shall we

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." (matthew 9:8) So mosses seems to have added things that were from the begging were not so. Uhmm getting any clearer? Lets go farther shall we "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place" Not the smallest letter of the smallest part surley Paul is not talking about the same law?

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Yaaaaaa.... I think you should read Romans 3 and 4. Then we'll talk.

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Have you read Romans 3 & 4 yet? I'm waiting.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 Yes i have what is it that u wish to point out i have already told u Paul sees two laws and if u think he does not then u make Paul into a transgressore. Sad, for we know that the LAW OF GOD "words of christ" will never pass away and the LAW- ten commandments - shall not in the least letter of the smallest part pass away either. The mossaic added law in which every person has fallen short of and that by which no one is justified has died with christ on the cross yes this is true.

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Ya I think you are not getting what Paul is saying. Your fallacies hinge on a poor exegesis of both Romans 3, 4 and other passages (of which, I am far too lazy to take each pertinent text you are alluding to, disect it, and show exactly how what you say does not follow from the text in the least). You have no warrant to distinguish between the "ten commandments" and the "mosaic law" for starters. Both are one and the same. Remember? How God gave MOSES the ten commandments?

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Paul was talking about the law. Which includes both the ten commandments and every other commandment. Go back to the Pentateuch. You'll read both the ten commandments and the other laws given to Moses for Israel to obey. Paul is saying. That we are justified by faith apart from works of the law (Romans 3). Where do you find the distinctions you make in the bible?

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 The ten commandments were written by who GOD not mosses it is the only thing written by the hand of GOD! If u think Paul is talking about the ten commandments and that everything is included in the law then u believe that Paul is a transgressore and a heritic! FOR MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY! "not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law" JESUS THE CHRIST said this and this and these words will never pass away!!!

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 The problem is.  You have yet to substantiate this claim BIBLICALLY. You can make a cartoon version of where Jesus said something... then stuff words in his mouth that you cannot find in the TEXT. But that does not make it a reality. Not only that (and we will get to this soooon...) you seem to be making claims about justification that make absolutely no sense.... more on that soon though.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 What text did i stuff would u like the passages i used????????

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 No I don't need them because you've already cited them. What YOU have yet to show is this.... HOW the ten commandments hold any special precedence over the rest of the law. God said through Isaiah that the word of God will stand forever. Jesus said that that not a stroke of the law will disappear. And so forth. Unless you are saying that everything in the Pentateuch EXCEPT the ten commandments... is ONLY Moses, and NOT the word of God.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 No not all as paul says WEMON SHOULD NOT SPEAK IN CHURCH NOR SHOULD THEY TEACH, remind me what is his reason for saying this? But Jesus does tell us that "mosses wrote this for the hardness of ur hearts BUT FROM THE BEGGING(the true law) IT WAS NOT SO! I am not saying all that mosses wrote was not of GOD but apparently there were some things that were written for man and not from GOD. Again what was Pauls reason that Wemon should not speak in church?????????

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 The reason i dont put passages up is that if i do then u have no chhoice but to say ok but if i do not then we can get to the heart of ur herisy and try to correct it

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Sure. Let's get to the heart of the matter. E-mail me over youtube. Or if you prefer, I'll give you my own personal e-mail address. I personally am tired of scrolling through 80 posts to see your reply in this confused mess of jumble. So I'll be waiting....

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 well send me ur answere to the question i posed or if u wish to start a new topic about our differences go ahead and pm me

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Not only that. But your whole system of justification seems to be wonky. Not only have you fallen short of dietary laws in the Pentateuch.... but you have also follen short of the "words of Christ" and/or the Ten Commandments. Jesus said that looking at a woman lustfully is adultery. Adultery violates one of the ten commandments.... See where this is going? EXACTLY where Paul is going with this.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 Where would u look to if u thought there was any doubt of disagreement between Paul and Jesus? By ur words u make Paul go against Jesus this is SAD but if this is the way u look at it then follow Jesus and not Paul this would be my advise. (Thoe if u properly interprite Pauls words they do not contridict Christ)

[mrumley1]

@gtepp031387 Well thank goodness.  The Pope is here.

[gtepp031387]

@mrumley1 MANY WILL SAY LORD LORD... AND I WILL SAY.. I NEVER KNEW U DEPART FROM ME Matthew 7:22-23

[HolyBeThyName]

The Catholic Church's formula for gaining Salvation is Biblical. Any other formula

would be unbiblical

[meinaim]

so this is why Catholic and Protestant teaching does not fit. One of them is a false Gospel.

Justification is the matter for salvation.

We are justified by the atoning work of Christ and by this eternally saved from the just wrath of God.

The process that is then starting off is sanctification. to grow in Christ to bring up fruit until that day that we are change in an instant into the image of Jesus.

Friend, to put Baptism before faith is not biblical at all, but you must know better

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, we are offered "saving grace" through Jesus' sacrifice,..But Holy Scripture clearly says that we are justified by our works. ...and again, these "works" are not ours in and of ourselves, but is the works that God does through us when we accept the graces offered to us by God throughout our lifetime. You need to read the Book of James in regards to "Justification".

[HolyBeThyName]

meinaim, also u accused the Catholic Church earlier of teaching that salvation/sanctification is a process as though u disagreed with that,...But now u yourself make the claim that its a process. Does this mean u r now converting to Catholicism ?...LOL

[meinaim]

you missunderstand my comment because for RCC Salvation and Sanctification is the same thing, which is not biblical and not what I say.

It would help if you´d reduce the amount of comments, so that I at least have a chance to answer you properly.

And I say Yes, as you expected.

The book of James and Justification MUST be seen in the context of all the other texts, like 1. John, which is very relevant and able to open up the context.

Before you proof I am wrong, proof you r right.

[HolyBeThyName]

Meinaim, I've heard some protestants use the mid-portion of 1 John as their evidence for "faith alone", even though the words "faith alone" aren't there.,..But here is my question to you and all those other protestants. Does or does not the 14 "ifs" in the beginning of 1 John make any difference at all ? We Catholics say they do,...What say you ? Also, u still haven't shown me anything from Scripture which would disprove the Catholic Church's theological formula on how to obtain salvation.

[HolyBeThyName]

Also, I guess u r one who doesn't believe in infant baptism because u believe that one must have knowledge of God through faith in order to then be Baptized right ? Please say "Yes" so that i can show u all the verses from Holy Scripture that would prove you wrong

[mrumley1]

Citations please.

[HolyBeThyName]

Todd, u don't understand Catholic teaching. The Catholic church has never said that it is works through "our" merit by which we are justified, but instead its God working through us when we accept his graces throughout our lifetime. So its actually God who is doing those "works" through us. We are therefore justified by having accepted his graces and allowing him to work through us. No place in Holy Scripture does it say we are justified by "Faith alone".

[meinaim]

...no place like Ephesian 2:8?

[HolyBeThyName]

Ephesian 2:8 says that by "Grace through Faith" we are saved and not by "our" works....The Catholic Church agrees with this. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that "our" works save us. Again, the Catholic Church teaches that it is "faith" + "Grace" that saves us,..But we must accept God's graces when offered to us. Its called "Free Will",...God doesn't force his Grace on us. We have a choice. When we accept his Graces then God is able to "WORK" through us.