Mill Reef superb!.....And backed Linden Tree on the day too.....Only 16 yrs of age then but got away with it :-)......Only thing I didn't win on that day was the Sweep at work.....Never mind......won the Sweep when 10 on Sea Bird in "65"
I had a good "on the nose" bet on a horse I loved , Linden Tree - every time I see this race I'm convinced he's going to hold on - but every time that show-off MR comes and does him - and again my 20 year old heart is broken - should be a stewards enquiry - blatant interference - by fate !!
Finishing speed like Dancing Braves is more flashy than the high cruising speed followed by relentless power of the likes of Mill Reef or Sea The Stars but much as I love DB I wonder if he could live with the sheer power nd authority of a Mill Reef. I doubt it. Mill Reef woudl be home and hosed by the time DB wound up to full throttle.
The 70's was fantastic for great Derby winners. Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Grundy, The Minstrel Troy, possibly even Roberto. Compare that to, for e.g., the 90's. I'd say you could only class Generous and the incomparably tough Lammtarra as great winners. The 80's had Shergar, Reference Point and Nashwan and possibly Slip Anchor. Sharastani was lucky. The noughties has seen Sea The Stars, while Sinndar, Galileo and High Chapparal you could make a case for too. The 70's take it for me, no doubt,
I think Sea The Stars is outstanding but having seen Zayate? Pulverise the field coming from last to first in the Breeders Cup I feel these 2 would be a great race.
Troy was a very good horse, but as Willie Carson rightly points out, was more of a strong galloping type rather than a speed horse; an attribute Sea The Stars has in abundance. Sea The Stars is superior to Troy, Shergar and Dancing Brave, in my opinion. Zarakava and Peintre Celebre are probably the only other two I'd rate alongside Sea The Stars in the last 30 years.
MrPapaBill slags off Dancing Brave again. Dancing Brave was much better than you're making out. Why the prejudice ? You're ridiculous : you say that DB was "one of the best ten middle distance horses of all time" and then proceed to name at least 30 which were better than him in your opinion. He was the best of all, or at least VERY close to being the best of all : MUCH closer than you're making out ! Sea The Stars was not as good as Dancing Brave : he didn't possess the finishing speed.
You seem not only possessed by DB but also with me.
Strang guy.
Mill Reef was superior to Dancing Brave. Finishing speed is one thing but as I pointed out in another thread, the race is run over the full distance, not the last furlong. It was pointed out by Brough Scott that had Dancing Brave run in STS's Arc, he would have finished 7 lengths behind STS.
Don't exaggerate; something which I notice you are prone to do. DB was a very good horse but again, I reiterate - he was NOT the best.
How can they rate STS as the best horse in the last 30 years? he has a lot to prove yet IMO. Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Shergar,Troy and the mighty Dancing Brave are all better horses and thats for starters. STS connections avoided the KG and Irish Derby for easier tasks, granted the Eclipse was a top notch performance, but for me he has more to do to be even mentioned in the same breathe as Mill Reef, Shergar, Troy let alone the great Nijinsky and DB.
er, well, hold your horses (literally). Every current rating is provisional; they are all subject to revision by the season's end. Currently he's rated with Dancing Brave, and that's not far wrong. The trouble is that he's not met, and probably won't meet any really good older horse. Not his fault. And he obviously isn't a horse that wants to win by a mile; he just wins. So whilst I love a good pub argument, this one's more difficult than most. However, Zarakova's not a great. Sorry.
It is difficult to call, i guess we'll have to see what happens later, he's an outstanding colt no doubt, and it has been marvellous to watch him run. I'd like to see him win the arc as Mill Reef and DB did and polish off his career, as i fear like most horses he will be on the stud farm next year!
I'd only disagree with you in that Shergar and Troy were only proven to be great at 12 furlongs. The fact that Shergar ran in the St Leger tells us something about what kind of horse his owner and trainer thought he was. That shouldn't make them less brilliant, but speed is what makes a horse great, and nearly all the greats are brilliant, versatile and durable - and Troy and Shergar don't tick all three boxes. Hope you don't think I'm having a go at them. I won a packet on Troy!!
i can see your point, however! i think Shergar certainly displayed speed in abundance in his races, but i agree he wasn't as robust as Nijinsky (a true great)for example. As for Troy, cracking dual Derby winner and had he won the Arc (which he would have but for a poor Carson ride) he would have been rated much better. It's practically impossible to compare generations so far apart as there are no form lines as with consequtive generations, but STS is definately making his mark!
Shaffi,as you know my friend the true greats,such as the 3 we have spoken about can run in any going,so why pull out See the Stars from the Irish Derby due to soft going, that fied was beatable,would you agree.
It's disappointing he was withdrawn, but it's too early to conclude that makes him less than top class. My fear is that he will remain unbeaten, but never beat anything of note.
On the other hand I suspect Rip Van Winkle will frank Sea the Stars' form before long. I believe that O' Brien thought he would turn over Sea the Stars in the Eclipse and was taken aback when the Derby winner won with a little in hand.
From Oxx's comments it appears the Arc is not on the agenda: very disappointing.
I was disappointed Sea the Stars didn't contest either the KG at least. The greats of yester year took in more races than it seems they do today, maybe it's weakening the breed, i don't know, either way we as racing fans are losing out. My argument is how can they compare these horses to Greats like Mill Reef, Nijinsky unless they accomplish the feats of these True Greats! Run them and test them, that'll sort the men fron the boys!
Shaffi1 why do we still argue about these 2 horses,because we were blessed with them, we will never see the like of these 2 again as you know MR is my Fav but the utmost respect for the Brig over 8 furlongs was and is the King.
In fact MillReef42, although i'm obviously a BG fan, i also admired the great Mill Reef too, but just to rub it in a bit, remember this! BG ran past MR as if he was rooted to the ground, and was actually running AWAY from him in the guineas. What the hell gives you the impression that MR would even caught let alone pass BG in another 440 yards?
roberto beat BG pretty easy..do you guys think roberto could have gotten that close to MR?? no way..MR would have dismiss roberto with ease..no doubt about that
Excuse, me Shaffi, he was not walloped as you say BG won fair and square, no doubt, but 2 other factors for me anyway come in to play,1 small field, and 2 My Swallow, what a let down he was.
To be honest jmdm1957 i was having a go at millreef42 as you can see!
I have the utmost respect for MR and of course BG.
Yes i agree we were blessed with two great horses, and the arguments they still raise emphasise just how much they were and still are, loved by their fans.
I personally have great admiration fro them both and i add Nijinsky to that also, as i don't think we have seen the likes in the years that have elapsed.
Which shows just how lucky we were to witness such great horses.
Without a doubt the most exciting,3 years of flat racing ever in my opinion, the will they wont they question, if im honest i did not want to see it, because i wanted both to go out on thier shields as they did.
No one who saw the Brigadier not only beat Mill Reef but run away from him on Guineas day could possibly ever imagine Mill Reef being able to catch and pass the Brigadier in another 440 yards. However! a mile and a half was Mill Reef's without a doubt.
shaffi, with that i agree but like yousrelf i think MR would have won over 12 furlongs without a doubt, and people can thow Nijinsky into the debate, over 8 the B G, over 12 MR, over 10, well for me the jurys out.
Regardless of our opinions we were very fortunate to have been around to see these great horses in probably the greatest decade in the history of the sport.
Each of them made us cheer in victory, and sad in defeat. The fact that we still wonder at these champions is true testimony to their greatness. They left a benchmark that will be rarely equalled let alone surpassed.
you can only beat what your up against on the day he did it in a canter and after that became a real star but like all great champions its how to bounce back after defat look at my swallow never won a race after the 2000 and he was rated higher than the big 2 at the time.
This, nonsense goes on and on OK the little fella was beaten in the 2,000, but does anybody think that BG would have beaten him over 10 or 12 furlongs that would never have happened he was a truly great horse and deserves a little bit of credit.
Yes,Mill Reef was,indeed,a great horse,but that doesn't change the fact that,Mill Reef apart,the 1971 Derby was a weak affair.Brigadier Gerard was an emphatic winner of the Two Thusand Guineas,which takes absolutely nothing away from Mill Reef's later achievements and only reinforces his reputation as a top class racehorse. I was merely stating the cold facts and NOT attempting to undermine the undoubted merits of Mill Reef.
Most, Derbys, are weak affairs it is a bit early in the season for 3 year olds to run 12 furlongs, thats just an opinion, look at Sir Percys Derby for example.
Fair point Fran, but dont you think that too much attention was paid at that time to that Race, for me then as a racing nut I could not believeyhe reactions because MR was beaten he was loved by the public as was BG.
I would back Mill Reef any day of the week to beat BG over 1M4F, and I would be extremely confident that Mill Reef would have trounced Roberto over 1m2f,so extending that line of reasoning Mill Reef would probably have beaten BG over 1M 2F, but that's a purely personal viewpoint and ,of course,open to considerable debate.
Yep, I think BG would have done him over 1.2 or 1.4 Don't forget the quality of BG's King Geroge. Even Ian Balding has acknowledged that BG was superior. You come to the same conclusion by looking at the form lines.
Parnell was a very useful performer. All the collateral form lines between Mill Reef BG (and My Swallow) show the truth. The Brig was more consistent & versatile. And who didn't turn up for the show down in the Eclipse? Don't get me wrong MR was a great horse - and a better stallion - but BG was awesome. Be lucky.
mr balding would never have ducked a race against BG if possible and MR without doubt would have won,and in my opinion he would have beaten BG over 10, but thats me,as for not turning up for the Eclipse in 72 where was BG in 71.
My horse is his some amount of great grandson :)
olimillz9 5 months ago
Mill Reef superb!.....And backed Linden Tree on the day too.....Only 16 yrs of age then but got away with it :-)......Only thing I didn't win on that day was the Sweep at work.....Never mind......won the Sweep when 10 on Sea Bird in "65"
Notstrongbow 6 months ago
I had a good "on the nose" bet on a horse I loved , Linden Tree - every time I see this race I'm convinced he's going to hold on - but every time that show-off MR comes and does him - and again my 20 year old heart is broken - should be a stewards enquiry - blatant interference - by fate !!
mickigoe 8 months ago
I own his grand-daughter, and had no idea she had a famous grandfather until I searched her sire and grandsires names here! wow!
razorsharpbubble 9 months ago
Mill reef is my horse great great granfather, Pretty cool eh?.x
xxamberhorsexx 1 year ago
Comment removed
xxamberhorsexx 1 year ago
Finishing speed like Dancing Braves is more flashy than the high cruising speed followed by relentless power of the likes of Mill Reef or Sea The Stars but much as I love DB I wonder if he could live with the sheer power nd authority of a Mill Reef. I doubt it. Mill Reef woudl be home and hosed by the time DB wound up to full throttle.
tigerarmyrule 1 year ago
Great performance by Mill Reef.
ray3mondo 1 year ago
The 70's was fantastic for great Derby winners. Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Grundy, The Minstrel Troy, possibly even Roberto. Compare that to, for e.g., the 90's. I'd say you could only class Generous and the incomparably tough Lammtarra as great winners. The 80's had Shergar, Reference Point and Nashwan and possibly Slip Anchor. Sharastani was lucky. The noughties has seen Sea The Stars, while Sinndar, Galileo and High Chapparal you could make a case for too. The 70's take it for me, no doubt,
5overlord 2 years ago 3
I think Sea The Stars is outstanding but having seen Zayate? Pulverise the field coming from last to first in the Breeders Cup I feel these 2 would be a great race.
jnmklo9 2 years ago
Sea The Stars over Dancing Brave?
You're miles off.
matelot95 2 years ago
Troy was a very good horse, but as Willie Carson rightly points out, was more of a strong galloping type rather than a speed horse; an attribute Sea The Stars has in abundance. Sea The Stars is superior to Troy, Shergar and Dancing Brave, in my opinion. Zarakava and Peintre Celebre are probably the only other two I'd rate alongside Sea The Stars in the last 30 years.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
MrPapaBill slags off Dancing Brave again. Dancing Brave was much better than you're making out. Why the prejudice ? You're ridiculous : you say that DB was "one of the best ten middle distance horses of all time" and then proceed to name at least 30 which were better than him in your opinion. He was the best of all, or at least VERY close to being the best of all : MUCH closer than you're making out ! Sea The Stars was not as good as Dancing Brave : he didn't possess the finishing speed.
zarakhast 2 years ago
You seem not only possessed by DB but also with me.
Strang guy.
Mill Reef was superior to Dancing Brave. Finishing speed is one thing but as I pointed out in another thread, the race is run over the full distance, not the last furlong. It was pointed out by Brough Scott that had Dancing Brave run in STS's Arc, he would have finished 7 lengths behind STS.
Don't exaggerate; something which I notice you are prone to do. DB was a very good horse but again, I reiterate - he was NOT the best.
MrPapaBill 2 years ago
@zarakhast STS possessed enough speed not to get beaten twice like DB. STS also has the Derby to his name ...
Nautilus1972 1 year ago
How can they rate STS as the best horse in the last 30 years? he has a lot to prove yet IMO. Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Shergar,Troy and the mighty Dancing Brave are all better horses and thats for starters. STS connections avoided the KG and Irish Derby for easier tasks, granted the Eclipse was a top notch performance, but for me he has more to do to be even mentioned in the same breathe as Mill Reef, Shergar, Troy let alone the great Nijinsky and DB.
shaffi1 2 years ago
er, well, hold your horses (literally). Every current rating is provisional; they are all subject to revision by the season's end. Currently he's rated with Dancing Brave, and that's not far wrong. The trouble is that he's not met, and probably won't meet any really good older horse. Not his fault. And he obviously isn't a horse that wants to win by a mile; he just wins. So whilst I love a good pub argument, this one's more difficult than most. However, Zarakova's not a great. Sorry.
ComteLafon 2 years ago
It is difficult to call, i guess we'll have to see what happens later, he's an outstanding colt no doubt, and it has been marvellous to watch him run. I'd like to see him win the arc as Mill Reef and DB did and polish off his career, as i fear like most horses he will be on the stud farm next year!
shaffi1 2 years ago
I'd only disagree with you in that Shergar and Troy were only proven to be great at 12 furlongs. The fact that Shergar ran in the St Leger tells us something about what kind of horse his owner and trainer thought he was. That shouldn't make them less brilliant, but speed is what makes a horse great, and nearly all the greats are brilliant, versatile and durable - and Troy and Shergar don't tick all three boxes. Hope you don't think I'm having a go at them. I won a packet on Troy!!
ComteLafon 2 years ago
i can see your point, however! i think Shergar certainly displayed speed in abundance in his races, but i agree he wasn't as robust as Nijinsky (a true great)for example. As for Troy, cracking dual Derby winner and had he won the Arc (which he would have but for a poor Carson ride) he would have been rated much better. It's practically impossible to compare generations so far apart as there are no form lines as with consequtive generations, but STS is definately making his mark!
shaffi1 2 years ago
Shaffi,as you know my friend the true greats,such as the 3 we have spoken about can run in any going,so why pull out See the Stars from the Irish Derby due to soft going, that fied was beatable,would you agree.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
It's disappointing he was withdrawn, but it's too early to conclude that makes him less than top class. My fear is that he will remain unbeaten, but never beat anything of note.
On the other hand I suspect Rip Van Winkle will frank Sea the Stars' form before long. I believe that O' Brien thought he would turn over Sea the Stars in the Eclipse and was taken aback when the Derby winner won with a little in hand.
From Oxx's comments it appears the Arc is not on the agenda: very disappointing.
21shergar 2 years ago
I was disappointed Sea the Stars didn't contest either the KG at least. The greats of yester year took in more races than it seems they do today, maybe it's weakening the breed, i don't know, either way we as racing fans are losing out. My argument is how can they compare these horses to Greats like Mill Reef, Nijinsky unless they accomplish the feats of these True Greats! Run them and test them, that'll sort the men fron the boys!
shaffi1 2 years ago
the horses that BG beat in his KG dahila dismiss then with ease..are you even serious?? Dahila could not get close to MR
millreef42 2 years ago
Dahila?? i take it you mean Dahlia!
I rather think your opinions are like your spelling!......Incorrect!!!!!
shaffi1 2 years ago
Shaffi1 why do we still argue about these 2 horses,because we were blessed with them, we will never see the like of these 2 again as you know MR is my Fav but the utmost respect for the Brig over 8 furlongs was and is the King.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
In fact MillReef42, although i'm obviously a BG fan, i also admired the great Mill Reef too, but just to rub it in a bit, remember this! BG ran past MR as if he was rooted to the ground, and was actually running AWAY from him in the guineas. What the hell gives you the impression that MR would even caught let alone pass BG in another 440 yards?
shaffi1 2 years ago
roberto beat BG pretty easy..do you guys think roberto could have gotten that close to MR?? no way..MR would have dismiss roberto with ease..no doubt about that
millreef42 2 years ago
The Brigadier beat Mill Reef a dam sight easier! so on form that means Mill Reef would be six lengths adrift of Roberto!!
"would of" counts for nothing!!!
what they did! matters most, and the fact remains BG DID wollop Mill Reef the only time they met! end of!!
shaffi1 2 years ago
Excuse, me Shaffi, he was not walloped as you say BG won fair and square, no doubt, but 2 other factors for me anyway come in to play,1 small field, and 2 My Swallow, what a let down he was.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
To be honest jmdm1957 i was having a go at millreef42 as you can see!
I have the utmost respect for MR and of course BG.
Yes i agree we were blessed with two great horses, and the arguments they still raise emphasise just how much they were and still are, loved by their fans.
I personally have great admiration fro them both and i add Nijinsky to that also, as i don't think we have seen the likes in the years that have elapsed.
Which shows just how lucky we were to witness such great horses.
shaffi1 2 years ago
Without a doubt the most exciting,3 years of flat racing ever in my opinion, the will they wont they question, if im honest i did not want to see it, because i wanted both to go out on thier shields as they did.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
No one who saw the Brigadier not only beat Mill Reef but run away from him on Guineas day could possibly ever imagine Mill Reef being able to catch and pass the Brigadier in another 440 yards. However! a mile and a half was Mill Reef's without a doubt.
shaffi1 3 years ago
shaffi, with that i agree but like yousrelf i think MR would have won over 12 furlongs without a doubt, and people can thow Nijinsky into the debate, over 8 the B G, over 12 MR, over 10, well for me the jurys out.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
Regardless of our opinions we were very fortunate to have been around to see these great horses in probably the greatest decade in the history of the sport.
Each of them made us cheer in victory, and sad in defeat. The fact that we still wonder at these champions is true testimony to their greatness. They left a benchmark that will be rarely equalled let alone surpassed.
shaffi1 2 years ago
over a mile yes mile and a half debatable mile and a half at that time the little one was unstoppable, the best i have had the pleasure of seeing.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
you can only beat what your up against on the day he did it in a canter and after that became a real star but like all great champions its how to bounce back after defat look at my swallow never won a race after the 2000 and he was rated higher than the big 2 at the time.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
my horse is related to mill reef .
kayteelouiisensally 3 years ago
Thanks for this shalakhani.
As for Mill Reef, Lewis kept him at his work, but he was never really under the slightest pressure was he?
december2364 3 years ago
Comment removed
francilius 3 years ago
oh my aching sides thats' funny
terbine13 3 years ago
This, nonsense goes on and on OK the little fella was beaten in the 2,000, but does anybody think that BG would have beaten him over 10 or 12 furlongs that would never have happened he was a truly great horse and deserves a little bit of credit.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
Yes,Mill Reef was,indeed,a great horse,but that doesn't change the fact that,Mill Reef apart,the 1971 Derby was a weak affair.Brigadier Gerard was an emphatic winner of the Two Thusand Guineas,which takes absolutely nothing away from Mill Reef's later achievements and only reinforces his reputation as a top class racehorse. I was merely stating the cold facts and NOT attempting to undermine the undoubted merits of Mill Reef.
francilius 3 years ago
Most, Derbys, are weak affairs it is a bit early in the season for 3 year olds to run 12 furlongs, thats just an opinion, look at Sir Percys Derby for example.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
Fair point Fran, but dont you think that too much attention was paid at that time to that Race, for me then as a racing nut I could not believeyhe reactions because MR was beaten he was loved by the public as was BG.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
I would back Mill Reef any day of the week to beat BG over 1M4F, and I would be extremely confident that Mill Reef would have trounced Roberto over 1m2f,so extending that line of reasoning Mill Reef would probably have beaten BG over 1M 2F, but that's a purely personal viewpoint and ,of course,open to considerable debate.
francilius 3 years ago
Yep, I think BG would have done him over 1.2 or 1.4 Don't forget the quality of BG's King Geroge. Even Ian Balding has acknowledged that BG was superior. You come to the same conclusion by looking at the form lines.
randykawasaki 3 years ago
I, dont think so, a 13 min stewards enquirey come on do you really think Parnell would have got that close to Mill Reef.
jmdm1957 3 years ago
Parnell was a very useful performer. All the collateral form lines between Mill Reef BG (and My Swallow) show the truth. The Brig was more consistent & versatile. And who didn't turn up for the show down in the Eclipse? Don't get me wrong MR was a great horse - and a better stallion - but BG was awesome. Be lucky.
randykawasaki 3 years ago
mr balding would never have ducked a race against BG if possible and MR without doubt would have won,and in my opinion he would have beaten BG over 10, but thats me,as for not turning up for the Eclipse in 72 where was BG in 71.
jmdm1957 2 years ago
thanks for putting this clip back on shalakhani!
terbine13 3 years ago