Parallel Universes/Parallel Lives/Determinism/Freewill

[particleion]

I find all of this extremely interesting and thus have made a video on just this very topic called Realmz of existence.

I want to explore this some more so ive decided to go to the new york science festival this june..

Brian green will be giving a presentation with nick bostrom called Infinite Worlds.

Now take this concept and mix it with the simulation hypothesis and you get a radical twist on reality .

[doctorrin]

I think you are mis quoting.

We are in one multiverse. We are in one universe. There is only one multiverse (the new term for universe), which consists of many UNIverses, that may be RELATIVELY flat.

The whole ideal that universes are flat is a bit funny to me. A piece of paper isn't 2-d. 2d doesn't really exist.

I don't think these new terms are needed. We could have the UNIverse that holds infinite possibilities within its expanse and don't need to term a multiverse and parallels and shit.

[Tophet7]

John Calvin's predestination theology postulated that because God knows everyone who will choose belief over unbelief, we are all predetermined by God for eternal life or death and free will is only an illusion. I have to disagree. If God exists beyond space-time, He sees both the past and the future (but not in the temporal sense). To Him, the past and future are as alive as the present is to us. God knows the choices we will make, but that doesn't abrogate our own free will in space-time.

[schrodingasdawg]

My understanding of multi-world is that there is that it's just QM without measurement axioms. There continues to be one universe after a conscious entity makes a measurement, but one which is a superposition of two states with definite conscious perception. Then we would be observing one of those superimposed states. The universe, as a whole, is a superposition of the state we observe and others.

Though this is really more metaphysics than physics.

[Walabio]

I recommend reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman.

[2bsirius]

I have and I love his stuff! But thanks for adding the suggestion...

[jcmegabyte]

Interesting concepts - a bit mind boggling as well! :-)

[windham666]

as i understand it, the consensus is there is only one universe: dimensions are understood as mere components of the grid system, rather than physical attributes of space. the alternate dimensional views ares simply the result of coordinate transformations describing events in this universe. Even with M-theory predicting 11 dimensions or more, the existence of more than four dimensions would only appear to make a difference at the subatomic level. Not in a parallel real world.

[xy11xy]

I love the idea of multiverses!

[xy11xy]

I love this video!

[AtomicUs5000]

If it can be perceived, then it exists. I'll stick with that in regards to this.

[2bsirius]

Yes, sound quite reasonable.

[LimpLoser]

" Everytime a concious entity makes a decision the universe bifurcates "

its so obvious.

[StevenErnest]

Is he of Everett-Wheeler Model? Very touching about his daughter. His multiverse idea resonates with me. But besides conscious actions bifuracting each universe, each time a cloud takes one form, in other universes, it takes all other possible forms. So every possible universe exists simultaneously -- as well as the versions in fiction, sci-fi, etc.

Borges' "The Library of Babel" is an excellent metaphor. Great vid!

[2bsirius]

Yes, he is the same Everett...Really interesting comment, Steve. I'm a Borges fan too, and not that you mention it, of course it seems obvious that Borges' "The Library of Babel" themes resonant with these theories. Thanks for mentioning it...I

[enigmatically]

the video says it's no longer available :( I will try again later.

[JJJPaxton]

I'm reading "The Self-Organizing Quantum Universe" from sci am, you can google the title and a .pdf will appear, it's on quantum gravity and general relativity, from what I understood you need to add CAUSALITY for the system to work properly... the way of determinism

[2bsirius]

Thanks. I'll check the link out.

[2bsirius]

OK...Printed up the article and I'm taking it to bed with me...THANKS!

[JJJPaxton]

good reading?

[redfurrymonster]

The idea of multiverse as in the plurality of worlds is a fun idea but it sounds like wishful thinking to me. It is alot like buying a lottery ticket and dreaming of all the things you could do if you win.

[deliciousonionsoup]

While I think I understand this Multiverse idea, I see it as somewhat of a "learning experience" idea. It suggests we all are a supreme being(s) who is learning from / after making various decisions to various situations. It therefore suggests something other than one life (of course). I don't adhere to it because I don't think each of us is as important or as powerful as to necessitate the creation of another universe after each conscious decision we make.

[deliciousonionsoup]

Apart from this I think we learn enough from the one life and the consequences we get from / in / during it. To me this Multiverse idea is just an idea which would just be another way of selling more books. To me, The Multiverse is as speculative and as made up as the ideas behind Christianity and Islam. Certainly there is no proof for the three - Multiverse, Christianity and Islam. Nice ideas to dream about but probably no truth in any of the three.

[2bsirius]

I would agree if i the many world interpretation or the multiverse weren't supported with mathematical proofs...It would be interesting and futile to try to develop a mathematical proof for the belief systems you mention. It could never be done, of course...

[deliciousonionsoup]

Mind you, 2b, when I think again, and not just about the possibility / notion that there is a new entire universe each time we each make a new decision, I can wonder at least at the times of when I could have died (we all have had those points in our lives) and what would have been of the universe if I had died. And that at least leads me to wonder if those other universes do exist without me. And I can wonder if this is the same for others. It's just thinking though to me - a possibility.

[deliciousonionsoup]

And the thing is I'd really like to believe in this multiverse idea because it is an extremely nice notion. I think a religion could be made out of it though. This doesn't of course disprove it at all. I don't think I'd understand any of the mathematical proofs that you could mention by the way. I'll listen to this video again - but I just received Ian's cd - "No Greater Gift by Ian Roberts" - so I'm listening to that right now. I like it all so far. Track 3 my favourite so far "Masterplan".

[deliciousonionsoup]

By the way, and not to give anybody any ideas, but didn't this guy's (Hugh Everitt) daughter make logivcal sense when she thought and to paraphrase: "what the hell in this world because I'll be alive in other parallell universes anyway"? Of course she should have discussed that with him first - I wonder if he'd have changed his views then. I wonder if Hugh Everitt believed in his ideas of the multiverse when his daughter committed suicide - or even if it just offered him unrealistic hope still.

[deliciousonionsoup]

Please excuse my misspelling - it's Hugh Everett.

[kingsman565]

I hate the Parallel Universes theory because it means somewhere there's another version who's made all the right choice's and is living out all my dreams has a wounderful life & is everything I want to be. Ofcourse the opposite is allso true and there's a million other me's who are much worse of so I guess the only thing you can do is be happy with what you have and try make your life the best it can be.

[2bsirius]

Yes, it does seem to make it all even more futile in some deep sense, doesn't it?

[kingsman565]

Not so much futile as irrelevent, whether it's true or not it dosen't change a dam thing about your life & for someone to kill themselfs over this theory is so tragic this woman you speak of could of changed her life for the better instead she ended it even if she is still alive in an infinite number of timelines she'll never know about it.

[ElectronicPhone]

Yes, I think I've seen the documentary your talking about. Very interesting.

In the field of philosophy this multiple world type stuff was argued by David Lewis. He championed that possible worlds theory in metaphysics actually refered to concrete worlds.

You might be interested in some of his stuff.

,cheers

[Rybot9000]

I heard something similar from physicist Deutsch. Sounds like another red herring.

The fact is, any "explanation" of free-will is an appeal to external causes and is therefor determinism and not free-will.

It is delusional to think that local graded potentials (analog gradients) anywhere in the neo-cortex causes or manifests "Free-Will" for example. Such will then is at the mercy of local graded potentials and not the Will itself.

No splitting of universes will change the state now.

[HaleyMary]

On the subject of parallel universes, I have always found the concept interesting. To think of the possibility of there being multiple lives. Thanks for sharing the links on the side.

[LennyBound]

Thanks for the heads up on the documentary; I'll watch it now. :-)

I'm actually taking a class this semester on David Lewis' book "On the Plurality of Worlds" which borrows heavily from Everett's work. I haven't gotten too far into the book yet, but I find it an extremely interesting idea.

I guess the most important question is if the inflationary ontology being proposed is worth the potential theoretical benefits. I'm not so sure it is.

[2bsirius]

I don't know this book YET, but I soon will. Thanks!

[2bsirius]

I just checked it out on line...Really interesting...I'll be ordering a copy tomorrow.

[Barklord]

Weird. It sounds a lot like he influenced some of Robert Anton Wilson's sci-fi. Thanks for the links. I'd never heard of him before now.

[cozmikzen]

thanks for the response. you and pyrrho both gave me somethings to think about in relation to velocity.

abut parallel universes, i dont know. there is some interesting ideas supporting it. But, it seems like a pretty extraordinary claim. im open to believe it, but until there is evidence, i dont know. even if there were, i would be inclined to see it as extensions of our universe. also, in Re: of suicide, there would have to be a new universe every second each person didnt kill themselves.

[slobomotion]

Heh heh, I just got the DVD of the movie "The Jacket." Bless you, what a good channel you have! I had a "flash" of "wisdom" in 2002 about time, and am just too embarrassed to say, generally, that time looks kind of like a hot pink "Slinky" toy in a perpectual figure 8. Well, now you know! Let me go hide my head . . .

[2bsirius]

I know exactly what you mean....I had the same obsession thought about Slinkys [mine was a gray metal one]. I also couldn't stop thinking about how barber's poles seem to represent the same thing...AND I incessantly made the figure 8 sideways and drew lines through them while I had the same train of thought going in my mind...SO I can only say that I know exactly what you mean, and it sounds a little over the top to admit that I do...

[Skep155]

An almost infinite and ever growing amount of universes branching out every time a conscious being makes a decision would seem to imply quantum immortality, so it could be argued that Everet's daughters reasoning about not actually being able to die when she commited suicide was fairly sound (IF Everet's theory is correct), who knows perhaps from her own perspective she is still alive in a parralel universe where the suicide attempt failed.

[discovery2245]

Stephen Hawking has had many science confrences on this.I've heard there are mathematical systems on this.

[doctorrin]

From a western science perspective multiverses were first pondered upon in the 50's.

But humans believing in parallel existence is nothing new. It just doesn't interest science until they "discover" it. Pisses me off..

[ItalianStallionette]

very cool!

[tomken8dy]

Quantum Realities.

If you went back in time and killed your our grandfather before your father was born you

would still exist; all you do is create a divergent time line.

What would happen if you split a binary star system?? LOL

LOVE your hair, Karen!!

[DavidRandallCurtis]

Great vid. This gives me hope that somewhere in the countless multiverses that there is a version of me that is not a total dork. :p

5*/fav

[2bsirius]

I'm trying to find the one of the many worlds where I'm not a female nerd, but so far no luck:! ;0)

[MrVisions]

I watched it recently, it was quite interesting,

[CousinoMacul]

I think you're conflating multiverse theory with the many worlds hypothesis. Those are actually two very different ideas.

[2bsirius]

Well, I'm just an interested amateur but I THINK there's a lot of overlap in the multiverse, many world theories...I've come to this conclusion by reading the popular writing of David Deutsch, but as I said. I'm no expert...

[2bsirius]

"MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, possibly infinitely many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel universes or quantum worlds." Just a quote that seems to support the overlap.

[2bsirius]

MMI stands for Many World Interpretation btw.

[2bsirius]

But, of course you're right I should have used MMI ONLY to avoid confusion because Hugh Everett III used MMI to refer to his theory.

[naphra2]

In case you haven't read it yet, Deutsch's 1997 book "The Fabric of Reality" is an excellent pop sci book on the subject, including the more philosophical aspects of the MWI.