Patriarchal Society via Socialization versus Personal Responsibility

[wisdomtrek]

Canon EOS 5D mark 2 = $2,400.00 .....ugh!

[0oCIARAo]

Camera sharpness WIN!

[pricelesspam]

When civilization progresses the more uncivilzed man feels oppressed because he is not able or allowed to be the monster he tends to be without facing diciplinary actions.

[blackman6270]

@pricelesspam Men dont feel oppressed because they have to face disciplinary actions. Men feel oppressed because women dont have to face the same disciplinary actions. For instance:

A man makes a prankcall to the police -> He gets a fine or a day in jail.

A woman falsely accuses a man of abuse or rape (without evidence)-> The man loses his job, gets locked up for some time and the woman walks free.

How is the injustice in this so hard to understand?

[hayria123]

Please dont compare what happened to black people and what supposedly happend to women. Trust me white man, you wouldnt understand. Stick to feminism and not race.

[GiantPotato]

It is a perfectly valid real world example to compare. NO black individual alive in a first world country today has had to deal with systematic slavery and attempting to play the victim due to slavery is both manipulative and dishonest.

A 22 year old woman is similarly not old enough to have even experienced systematic sexism. The feminist movement's original goal of equality to which it barely even pays lip service anymore had already more or less been met by the time that woman was born.

[hayria123]

@GiantPotato I am talking about the slave mentality and other things that have psychologically scarred my people. I study this type of stuff, I see its effect on my people everyday. Most white people, if any dont know or understand this. Women being prohibited from working, owning land, and voting in order to keep up the family structure of society cant be compared to the Slavery and destruction of a whole race of people.

[chica476]

@hayria123

Sounds like you cannot argue without bringing something so meager, such as race, to come into play.

[Dobogio]

Are you planning to respond to his response to you lol?

[DAVIDFREDERICKROY]

women automatically blame others for everything. It helps them compensate for how useless they are

[BillKiernan]

wait, is he really saying blacks are "far removed" from the effects of slavery, then jim crow laws, then discrimination in general? please tell me that's not his position.

[luckyvet]

I've been an employwer for 23 years.

- Women don't want to put the same effort into their jobs as men.

- The concept that gender behavior is totally nurtured is completly false. Anyone with kids knows this.

[tyciol]

Woooah first time I saw this guy on cam, I am looking forward to this series of rebuttals!

[Jabes1966]

Arguseyes great video. At the end when you detail examples of bias/oppression of men, I would have thrown into the mix that many times this oppression is much more invisible than oppression of women.

It is washed over by mainstream media. And even when a man who is the victim of real oppression gets people's attention many will tell him: man up, take it like a man, etc..

Also, this oppression bounces back on women: men of fatherless homes are 14 times likelier to rape (is just 1 example).

[nagaLilith]

Given how few women actually report real sexual assaults and how they are treated by the police, media and court system I seriously doubt that false reporting is a major problem. Certainly no more common than it is in any other crime. The way rape is defined by the law (absence of "no") implies that women always want sex with any male who makes a pass at them. Women are assumed to say "yes" unless proved otherwise, their bodies are communal property. What is the man's responsibility?

[Jabes1966]

per nagalilith:

Given how few women actually report real sexual assaults and how they are treated by the police, media and courts I seriously doubt that false reporting is a major problem.

---

I know of three Duke University students who would disagree. lol

[nagaLilith]

The fact that women have children is irrelevant to the wage gap. Why is bearing and raising a child not considered something worth pay, even those raising other people's kids make a pitiful sum? Why are businesses not expected or required to maintain a family-friendly environment, by for example, providing childcare or permitting small children in the office? Why are men not expected to give up a large part of their careers to raise their own children? Why are women?

[Jabes1966]

The reason businesses are not expected to make pains to coddle employees with kids is 1:

your kids are your personal business, i.e. you had your kids for yourself, kids are "your" blessing--you have them for your reasons. It's not businesses obligation to give free handouts.

Additionally, extra money for these sacrifices would be coming from those with no kids--why should the employee w/no kids (or has her shit in order) who is there everyday w/out extra costs/pains be penalized?

[Jabes1966]

Additionally,

Men are shoved into the provider track (by their wives) at least as much as they choose it. Most women once they get married choose to take a long hiatus, or never return to work, or become consultants. This scenario applies to those families who's income allows this. When wives work for monetary reasons typically (there are always exceptions) in under-educated couples who both work, the man works 40-60hr weeks in grueling jobs, while wife works 32hr or less wks in clerical/retail

[DianaBoston]

Your not making any sense in this video and certainly not answering his questions.

[DianaBoston]

Again, having children is another socialization of patriarchy! The strong influence of what women are 'for' is directly related to this. How are you going to separate what is socialized and what is purely nature?

[byteXI]

Your camera is incredible! How do you get such sharp, high quality video on youtube!?

[ArgusEyes]

That's because it's a professional digital SLR camera that can also shoot video, that is why it looks so good. (lookup Canon EOS 5D mark 2).

[byteXI]

Woah, that's really expensive.. Almost 3000 quid! Lucky you :P

[TimeGod12]

You Sir have very high level of wisdom, like a professor or philosopher.

I have learnt alot of valuable things from you and I thank you for that.

[LIONOFTHEBRAVE]

You can take responsibility in your life, agreed. Yet, oppression does exist, poor upbringing does exist, no opportunity does exist. Saying all movements are just people crying wolf, is just not true. Some people genuinly create ways to fix a problem and use protests to gain a voice of choice, much like you with this video.

[LIONOFTHEBRAVE]

I am also curious to ask Argus.

Have you ever lived in real poverty, where making your own opportunity, was not an option?

Or maybe your one of these people who use the system and it works for you, because maybe you have the makeup to survive or be independent in this system.

Your video comes across as arrogant on some points, and your ideas of a world where everyone creates thier own misery is not fully true either.

[St37One]

We really do not have access to reliable information about what opportunities we do or do not have from direct experience.

Do you actually think that you know more about what your university is really like than outsiders do just because you went there?

Not unless you have attended more than one university.

Otherwise you can only get your opinion from other people and from objective sources that are also available to other people.

Nobody knows what it is like to be me, including me.

[LIONOFTHEBRAVE]

I disagree, and agree, yet let me explain. There are certain aspects of status,upbringing,chance, and of course who we are as individuals that play a role in the subject of opportunity. If your parents are well educated for instance, then you will not have to take so much time educating yourself later, or moving through the hoops of society which for many in poorer situations (and do not fall into the group of prodigy), is asking the next to impossible.

Of course I don't know you.

[jadam914]

SPOT ON!

[thecreepyguy]

I'm sorry i have to point this out..

The quality on this video is AMAZING

[iamnotapie]

You have proven yourself as a truly deluded individual. Well done.

[SLCThunk]

Even the idea that slavery is far removed from today is loaded. Suppose a slave was freed roughly 150 years ago.

Upon freedom he probably went back to his old owner as the only source of employment and lived under black codes.

And within the last 150 years, his descendents have probably not seen very much economic mobility considering the way the economy is and always has been stacked. We're talking roughly 5 generations. That means there still can be a significant effect.

[Jabes1966]

SLC pertaining to slavery:

Actually 150 years is just over 7 g3enerations. (up until the last 20 years) people did not wait until 30 to have babies. On average people have babies around 20.

Also, there is very valid evidence that things were turning around splendidly for blacks up until the 70's (in the US). That is when the welfare culture hit. In wed-lock births for blacks dropped from about 66% before welfare to about 32% after welfare. The #1 indicator of poverty & crime is fatherlessness.

[starcraftiskool]

i thought feminism was silly and useless before seeing your videos. now i realize that its still needed because assholes like you exist. thanks for showing me! :)

[ArgusEyes]

Feminism is totalitarian and does not tolerate thought crime. Thanks for the clarification starcraftiskool.

[thecreepyguy]

Yep your an asshole if your anything pro male sorry dude.

Even an equalist, Sorry your still an asshole apparently.

[victorsvoice]

@starcraftiskool Screw you.

[MrBotulinum]

i think im genetically sexist i see women the same as children ,precious and to be protected it when my son falls he holds his arms out and knows how to fall and experiments wth it when my daughter falls my heart is in my mouth and know all this cos was roght up with 4 sisters there not soft but my anxiety is greater over women ten men in the care department i also beleave children belong w

[MrBotulinum]

with there mother,if a man/father dies in a conflict i have alot of respect if a mother/women dies in a conflict i dont see the point and think its a waste they shouldnt be in the army

[MrBotulinum]

dont feel good saying that as i have tryed to grasp feminism and do believe there should be equality but only to a certain degree as there is a line with me due to my nature

[Brilyantee]

~Arguseyes~

I agree 75% of what you say about pay equity but please don't cast aside the discrimination does occur.

Now as for choice(double edge sword) in North america and some parts of europe we do have a choice to take control(grab the world by the balls ^_^.) In other places they don't have that right to equal oppurtunity, they do but it would probably cost them their lives.

[SpazzzDog]

When feminists say women are socialized to be what society expects women to be, they're essentially saying women don't have the wherewithal to make decisions for themselves in their own lives and so the government must do it for them. That's completely antithetical to feminism. Am I right, or am I misunderstanding their argument?

[Orville9999]

And basically make huge hypocrites out of themselves in the process.

It's wrong for a persons friends or family to influence the way they they think and act, but it's ok for the federal government to do so.

[ApostolicArbiter]

Here's something for you to play with... Men are superior to women trying to behave like men. Women are superior to men trying to behave like women. Knowing that not everyone values gender distinction, I leave the value judgments to you as I already have my own to contend with. The feminazi is not the same creature as the himinazi, but a rose by any other name is still a plant. Right brain...Left brain... There will always be differences in thought. Personally, I say "long live the difference".

[sausage4mash]

good video again ArgusEyes .

what makes me smile about feminists is how very female they are ,they strip off their make up ,ware asexual clothes ,dally with same sex relationships , yet ,in my eyes their behavior is still so very atypical of their sex .

[jrnault77]

I believe that everyone is created equal. Yet everyone is not equal. Why? Some people work harder than others. That is what separates people, The harder you work the more education you get and the more ambition you have the more you can achieve you have to work for it. I would no expect to make as much as a woman who is more qualified then me. Should I complain if all the women where I work make more? No

[TheCaptianCanuck]

Almost there. Men open doors for men. This issue is crazzzy! People feel good doing nice things. Go any place and people are generally friendly. Unless there having a bad day. What would a women think if you let the door close behind you if you where right there. The is no problem with sexism. Sexism is about respecting our differences. How we portray our sexism is telling of who we are. We can slam the door or open the door.

[5b]

I don't know about this really. I try to generally believe what you say, and for the majority I know this is true.

But, I'll use an example of one of my friends. He dad recently lost his job, like lots of Americans have recently and her, being 18 and out of school. She asked if she could go out and get a job. Her sexist dad, turned to her, said to her face, that he would disown her if she EVER got a job and that her place was in the kitchen. These sexist acts do actually happen, and it shouldnt

[TheCaptianCanuck]

I am sadden to here this story. The only thing I can say is by what means do we want change. That is issue that bothers me. I don't want gov't intervention. People can use sexism like dynamite, for good or ill. The choice you make is the measure of your character.

[Brilyantee]

~Captain Canuck~

Sexism and racism run on the same line for me, therefore in some cases it can be big differences, in others it can be small. Their is a genetic disorder cal XY syndrome where someone is born with both a y and x chromosome, they are considered super human but die earlier.

I'm bringing this up because alot of our personalities are something that is learned, not what we are born with.

[TheCaptianCanuck]

Please don't use socialization as a cop out for personal choice. If people are to weak to overcome socialization the would be no change at all. Racial differences can easily be overcome with will. The tension of sexuality is not so easy. Even for gays. You will always react differently when that is in the mix. I am not saying this is right or wrong. But these differences are reality. - Why would nature see fit to kill off super humans?

[5b]

Boys have XY chromosomes. So I don't really get what you mean. I think you're talking about YY chromosome. Which I agree then.

[Brilyantee]

Sorry, here I am rambling away without proof-reading....

Anyway the syndrome I meant to mention is called Klinfelter Syndrome it is a genetic disorder from birth. So instead of XY for a boy, the boy with this disorder will have XXY.

[5b]

Ahhh, I see. Okay then :p

[thecreepyguy]

Woh xxy wouldnt that make him like a superhuman or something lol?

[boobmcnutt]

It seems to me that you're pretty much entirely ignoring the concept that cultural norms, though ever-changing, might just play some roll in current social status of women as a demographic.

I'm assuming that you recognize that historically and even in the not-too-distant past, these cultural norms were nothing short of unjust toward the likes of women. I'm also assuming that you understand quite well that these cultural norms evolve rather than simply remake themselves. -cont-

[boobmcnutt]

...And i'm also assuming that you've managed to tie this information together and understand that when BoundlessEyes speaks of socialization, she's speaking of cultural norms that were quite oppressive toward women in the past, blatantly unjust toward women less than a century ago, noticeably oppressive toward women 50 years ago, and still exist in some state to this day.

With all that assumed, i'm quite surprised that you didn't address BoundlessEyes' points about socialization with... -cont-

[boobmcnutt]

...something like:

A: Socialization used to create an oppressive environment for women, but within our parent's lifetimes the socio-economic playing field has become entirely fair.

B: I agree, socialization does still lead to some amount of injustice/oppression towards women, but it's not enough to concern myself with.

C: Socialization has never factored in the oppression of women, they just never pulled up their bootstraps before now.

D. ???

Simply ignoring the point strikes me as dishonest.

[Brilyantee]

The playing field for socialization is not fair but men are not always to blame for it, women are their own worst critics.

Most women get comments like these "why do dress like that?" or if they have children(not Breast feeding) its like " Why aren't you breastfeeding. The issues don't drop, some were raised to be that way and other women were raised more independantly, I'm more or less saddened by the lack of tolerance.

[Brilyantee]

PT2...

If the world is validated to vision and the heart but perceptions are unrealistic, the question why do we as people take it to heart?

Humans require socialization on some degree, therefore, they must measure up to a moral standard in some cases. For example...

If every women you have been with up to date required you to opn a door for her, when you met someone who didn't, you would do it anyway. By doing so you have just offended that person.

[boobmcnutt]

Brilyantee, I definitely agree, and I'll even add that it's not that I think everything is fine in terms of socialization and gender for men either -- and women aren't always to blame for that either.

[JimGunning]

Out of curiosity, what do you think the social status of women is?

Again, I don't think ArgusEyes has argued against social norms, or socialization, but against the idea that humans are born blank slates onto which society is free to wholly, and without constraint, determine the nature of a person.

[boobmcnutt]

I think that across social strata status of women is something less than ideal though much improved over even 40 years ago.

"I don't think ArgusEyes has argued against social norms, or socialization"

Yes, and that's why I say he is dishonest. He knows that those factor in quite heavily into the status of women, and he knows that they bear some relevance to points he makes, and yet he acts like it doesn't. It's dishonesty.

[java501]

And you discredit the human mind and humans ability to reason and come to the correct decision based on variables.

[boobmcnutt]

Java501, don't be ridiculous. Humans are easily tricked, easily swayed, and constantly make incorrect decisions. If you want evidence that this is true, look no further than the three quarters of the earth's population that believe in ghosts and gods crap like that.

And that's besides the point that cultural memes aren't usually transmitted through reason and argument.

[JimGunning]

Well, I'm sure he can clarify his position for you. I have a different impression.

What is the ideal you're measuring women's status against?

[boobmcnutt]

Just so you know, the word gender, when used in a scholarly fashion, is by definition socialized behavior patterns that are associated with the sexes. It's not just "out there" it's how people speak about those memes with precision.

[JimGunning]

Just so you know, the word "gender", as used in a scholarly fashion, is neither synonymous with, nor an argument in support of, a blank slate (which is what ArgusEyes has argued against - not for biology only, but against the blank slate). The point that ArgusEyes is denouncing the existence of socialization is a strawman introduced by SpaceMonkey (It seems, without malice).

[boobmcnutt]

I posted that because at 1:12 in the video, ArgusEyes states that the point of his original video was to "address a very unrealistic and unreasonable feminist idea, that gender is almost entirely, or almost all socially constructed. And i've heard a lot of people make that."

Given that he didn't know what the scholarly definition of "gender" was when he made that video, his points were, at best, confusing.

I just wanted to help him out so next time he uses it, he knows what he's talking about

[JimGunning]

The only academics who think the word "gender" means solely socialized characteristics are the few remaining academics who buy into the blank slate myth. For those who do not, "gender" refers to a loose basket of traits and characteristics that may or may not have their origins in socialization to one degree or another.

Regardless, when arguing over the nurture/nature origin of an object, it's acceptable to refer to the object of contention as a member of the "gender" basket.

[JMehrman]

You're my hero ArgusEyes!

[morgushong]

wow, this video looks really good and I dont even need to click HD.

[Zeeceei]

Well ArgusEyes, you do a good presentation and I do not mean to patronise. The point about who's choice it really is, to start a family, stands at the centre of the unequal pay argument as you make it.

[clashcitywannabe]

(continued)

however the philosophical heirs to the original feminists have created a system that deludes women into believing that they are still victims, males are the bad guy, when in fact, in todays world where science has made childbearing less of a weakness most of what holds them back is their own insecuritys, u will notice that in more primitive societys, the old patriarchal system still holds sway because the women have those physical short comings

[acadiantunes]

Did you notice how women only started calling themselves oppressed after technology freed them and helped them live longer? Did you also notice how women made their way in the workplace after men sacrificed and died to build the world from the ground up? I've never heard of women fighting for the right to build the railways but equality guarantee's them work on the cozy trains. Women wouldn't have the "luxury" of seeing themselves as oppressed if men hadn't freed them to begin with.

[clashcitywannabe]

thats a rather harsh way of stating it but ur correct

when a group is fully oppressed, they rarely see themselves a oppresssed, it is after they have been given some of the same amneties that their overlords enjoy that they realize theyve been duped

this is why slave rebellions rarely succeed without intervention from sympathetic people who belong to the higher class -nat turner is a prime pre civil war example as is john browns failure to incite a slave rebellion

[acadiantunes]

'it is after they have been given some of the same amneties that their overlords enjoy that they realize theyve been duped". Except in this case women were given technology that never existed for "anyone" and that freed them more than their "overlords"

[clashcitywannabe]

societies were male dominated for most of history because pregnancy and childbearing are weaknesses which would often kill females, thefore they were not the ones in control of societies, from the 20th century foreward medical advances have made pregnancy and childbearing less of a weakness therefore putting them on more of a level playing field, socially speaking

[Zeeceei]

Women and men together choose to have children. It is not solely the woman's choice. You seem to overlook this point.

[Chevrobert]

Great vid Argus I totally agree with you. And that snippet you used was right on as well. Many groups choose to FEEL like victims based on things that happened in the past and things that are no longer relevent. And while they wallow in self pity they ignore any injustice that does not directly affect their victim mentality. The rights of fathers is ignored because it is taboo to interupt the victim mentality of women which is based on things that happend in the distant past.

[BoundlessEyes]

This completely ignores the actual scientific evidence presented in favour of rhetoric, and THAT is an embarassment to your own intellect.

[iwantagoodnameplease]

What is this comment in reference to?

[thomaserossi]

Do you care to actually present any "scientific evidence" to support your claims or are you just going to continue making appeals to authority?

[ArgusEyes]

Me? Yes, I have put some links in the description now.

[thomaserossi]

The comment was for Boundless eyes who invoked "science" as an authority without providing any evidence to support this claim. Boundlesseyes doesn't seem to understand that science is built on reliable, repeatable empirical evidence as opposed to emotional outbursts and temper-tantrums.

[ArgusEyes]

O.K. It's good to have them there anyway.

Boundless has stopped commenting here I think. Thank fuck.

[Orville9999]

She's gone around removing comments to her videos. I can understand the removal of the more brazenly misogynistic ones but she took out pretty much everything that disagrees with her.

It's a pity. She was wrong and I really miss rubbing her face in it.

[BoundlessEyes]

That's a lie. I took out anything attacking me personally.

[Orville9999]

I recall making a post to ""Women Can't Do Maths": Evidence for Sociocultural Influence" about womens' scholarship and networking programs that men don't have being a possible factor for their success in college. A post that is now conspicuously absent.

Did you feel the post was attacking you personally or did your finger just slip?

[BoundlessEyes]

It doesn't take much for my finger to 'slip' when it comes to your kind, nor does it take much for you to formulate such an opinion in an offensive manner.

[Orville9999]

Offensive? The only thing more offensive than the idea that a man should suffer/work/die so a women doesn't have to is the idea that this is oppressive to women. I've never heard of women described as "the disposable gender".

If you and the other feminists I've met could practice SOME degree of intellectual honesty, then maybe I'll start playing nice.

[Parley454]

Go Orville!!!! I think BoundlessEyes is probably named boundless because she is another feminist who is never satisfied with anything, thus her satisfaction is forever fleeting and her dissatisfaction is boundless

[Brilyantee]

~Orville~ Possibly a misunderstand but I don't want a guy to suffer/work/ die for me, opressive yes and no because some chicks want that.

The problem is difference in personality and treating every women the same way. I personally can't stand someone who barges in on my life I would claim solitude and happiness over arrogance~!

[BoundlessEyes]

boysclub.

What a reasonable person you are when speaking to another man.

[ArgusEyes]

Actually Boundless, the way you act determines how people react to you.

But if taking responsibility for yourself is really something that you are completely unable to do then why not try to play the victim card yet again and claim that its all because youre female.

You could not have proven my point more strongly enough. Thank you.

[BoundlessEyes]

Ugh, enjoy a life of double-standards and hypocrisy.

[ArgusEyes]

Yeah, yeah. You call me hypocrite and then I'm supposed to say "you too", then you call me something else and then I say "you too" and around and around we go in perpetuity.

I realised a long time ago your inability to introspect.

But you see, Jess, what breaks the cycle is evidence.

You are entitled to you own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts.

[ArgusEyes]

You called me an arsehole right at the beginning of your video. You made a childish mashup at the end. You made silly supercilious little remarks in the previous video.

SpaceMonkey didn't do these things, so he got a nicer response. And you are shown to be full of shit once again. I'm sorry to abolish your little paranoid fantasy world, you probably still believe it anyway.

[java501]

To her credit in her mind you probably are an arsehole. It is nice to see people sticking to their guns now and then even if they are proven wrong at some juncture in their life and take a fall for it somewhere along the line.

[BoundlessEyes]

I was respoding to a vdeo calling me a nazi and a fascist.

Let us not forget that you started this.

[java501]

It would seem that had SpaceMonkey had watched the other videos you listed in the more information section that alot of this video would not have been needed.

[ArgusEyes]

Aye, but I don't think he means wrong. We can all assume that since our views are so obvious to us that they were clearly communicated. He and I approach the world so differently I feel that it needs to be explained clearer.

[Orville9999]

the phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch" was first said by robert heinlein wasn't it?

[ArgusEyes]

I imagine it's an old phrase co-opted by Friedman.

[freedom3001]

I SO agree. All minorities try to victimize themselves to gain more benefits. It's sickening, but what else would you expect when the majority accept any ridiculous claim?

[JMehrman]

Excellent sir! Too many victims these days, too much looking to the past, etc. I think the statements have been made by all victim groups a long time ago ... can't you move on .. can't we move closer to true equality without impeding on the rights of others.

[loqutor]

It's sad to see how badly Rousseau's ridiculous ideas have infected our educational systems in the West.

[mala265]

Argus!!!! 5 stars.Loved this.Favourited!!

[pinegrove33]

Yes, all feminists have are strawman-sheep arguments. To say social construction is a strawman is absurd. The notion has infected and owns the entire education industry. When I get home tonight I'll post this on MND tonight. It looks like you gave new age man about 400 more views than he otherwise would have had, lol.

[Spacemonkey2084]

Thank you for the reply,

I've put myself on very serious restriction for youtube for the next couple days. I'll be making my response some time after Tuesday evening.

[ArgusEyes]

Me too. In fact, this is the last video I think I will do on this particular topic.

[ConservativeAtheist]

Yes actually I have really become bored with this topic although I think while it lasted interesting points were made.

Glad to see my (Hero) Dennis Prager has fans in the UK as well as the USA.

[georg1984]

For all the things I disagree with Prager on, and there are many, I am also a fan!

G from the UK