How to play Shogi(将棋) -Lesson#37- Shogi Variants

[jazza1994]

ULTIMATE GREAT GREAT SHOGI!

I MUST BUY IT

[TKR101010]

Yay! Chu Shogi is my favorite :) A couple of things ... What you call a Bronze General is called a Copper General on all the english pages and game sites I've seen. Also, you didn't mention the rules in Chu Shogi that prohibit the capturing of the Lion in some circumstances. They're very important for keeping your Lion alive. :) Also, in Chu if a piece chooses not to promote when it enters the promotion zone there are restrictions on when it will next be able to promote.

[HIDETCHI]

@TKR101010 I belive Copper is a wrong translation. The material used for weapons, tools, coins, etc. in old era of Eastern is bronze, not pure "Cu". I mean, do you call medals "Gold Medal, Silver Medal, and Copper Medal"?

Strictly speaking, the kanji 銅 itself means "Cu". But it actually means "青銅" in many cases, (including this case, I believe), which means "bronze".

[noobsdumb]

WHOOOAAA!!!! ultimate shogi!!! shogi takes a long time and its timy compared to ultimate shogi!!!!! how long would a regular game of ultimate shogi take if the king can basically teleport!!!!

[hirohiigo]

@noobsdumb Two professional shogi players played a game of Taikyoku shogi, and it took 3 days to finish.

[Gerstein1]

I think the promoting king in Ultra great great shogi was to make a player even more devoted to keeping the king out of the enemy camp.

[Gerstein1]

@Gerstein1, by that, I meant Gote's trying more desperately to keep sente's king out and vice versa

[tooktookguy]

where is the enemies' camp? the last three columns or the last five columns?

[HIDETCHI]

4 ranks.

But the rules regarding promotion are different from normal shogi.

[hanzimaster]

@tooktookguy last 4

[serefkana]

What if you captured the opponents Drunken Elephant, dropped it, and then promoted it? Would your opponent then have to mate/capture all 3 of your "Kings"?

[HIDETCHI]

There's no drop in Chu-shogi.

[OneWeirdDude]

@serefkana Variants don't work well with both Princes and a drop rule

[serefkana]

If you could incorporate/add any piece(s) into regular Shogi, what would they be? I'd add Drunken Elephant and/or Lion :)

[kainhongo]

i like mini shogi

because fast

ultumate shogi is for crazy

[simonguoxm]

I still love Go/Weiqi. The rule is very simple and Simple is the best.

[Taraalcar]

WOW, I would LOVE to learn how to play 大局将棋, but the problem is I could NEVER play it with anybody else.

[2025AD]

Ultimate Shogi moeee~~

(from the real 将棋男)

[xDAZZE]

In 19x19 Shogi is it even POSSIBLE to checkmate the Almighty Emperor?

It can't be checkmated unless ALL squares are stringed or filled.... >_>

[TKR101010]

@xDAZZE : There are pieces that have a huge range. The Hook Mover, for example, can reach every square on the board if it's the only piece. Other piece will cause blind spots for it, but using it with other pieces with huge range, like the Capricorn will help narrow down where an Emperor can go to try to get away from an attack.

[runemonk1]

I am so going to collect each type of shogi game, and even try to play one of each game!(plenty more shogi games though, otherwise why would I bother watching tutorials on how to play!) I actually like how shogi has all these counterparts, because in a sense, these could also be used as tools to demonstrate proficiency! Like moving from mini shogi to regular shogi and then to small shogi and so on and so forth!

[EdwardNavu]

In Ultimate Shogi, it is not only a zoo, it contains demons inside the camp.

It is just a gallery of literally all of the Shogi pieces ever existed. I attempted to translate the article into Chinese, I assume I will cost more than 120 hours to complete the project.(And I finished nearly 85% of them indeed, I was forced to abandon the plan later because of the end of holiday.)

[hanzimaster]

i"m making a Chessgi (chess with drops) later

note:the "gi" part stands for shogi(with drops)

[EdwardNavu]

Are you looking for "Crazyhouse"? Find it in Wikipedia.

[hanzimaster]

I like Taikyoku(ultimate) shogi

[hanzimaster]

I heard that you say for the Crown prince:"....it's role is the same as the PRINCE" it shoiuld read:

"....it's role is the same as the KING"

[HIDETCHI]

I meant that the Crown Prince in fact acts as a "Prince", which takes over the throne when the King has died.

[Hafesie]

Cant we make a Chess Shogi, just Western Chess with Drops

Wait that's bughouse :P

[HIDETCHI]

Oh, that would be an exciting game...

But I guess you can hardly put your Rooks or Knights sitting in line horizontally with a square gap between them, because they'd be easily forked by a pawn drop...

[willtaylorguitar]

It already exists and is called crazyhouse (see wikipedia for rules). It's a good game and is popular on the Internet Chess Club (chessclub(dot)com). Bughouse is similar but is between two teams of two players. Interesting video as always!

[HIDETCHI]

Oh, I didn't know about them. Wow! These rules are so exciting.

But in crazyhouse, we need two sets of pieces, right?, because we have two colors. So bughouse may be a good solution to that issue.(^^)

[Hafesie]

Thats part of the fun. As you said earlier, chess is a faster paced game than shogi (more piece mobility and smaller board) so slow manouvering like pawn drops to fork arent very important if there is a Mate in 3 or something

[HIDETCHI]

I see your point. It becomes more similar to Shogi when it adopts drops, so I guess it's "Gain speed rather than material in the endgame", just as in Shogi.

I guess shogi players have pretty good sense of playing crazyhouse.

[hanzimaster]

you typed the propmoted rook as "dragon HORSE"(!)

[HIDETCHI]

Thanks.

You're always good at finding my mistakes! ^^

[shawnspringstead]

that ultamate shogi is pure insanity

[PoopShitMario]

Wa Shogi with drops is my favorite =)

[hanzimaster]

wa shogi don't have drops

[PoopShitMario]

In shogivar you have the option of having drops or no drops in Wa Shogi. I've researched Wa Shogi, and there's contradictory historical documents about it. Some state that it wasn't played with drops, some state: it was played with drops. Are you implying that my favorite variety of Shogi is not valid?

[HIDETCHI]

We believe Wa Shogi was originally played without drops, so the regular rule for Wa Shogi should be the one without drops.

Wa Shogi with drops is a modern rule that is made by applying this Shogi's novel rule to it. I'm sure it's an exciting rule since it's welcomed by people.

It's just that hanzimaster didn't know about it, so don't think he's implying it's invalid.

[PoopShitMario]

Wa Shogi contributed to the development of modern Shogi significantly. Although, it seems like vast majority of the historical documents related to it have been destroyed or lost. From the ones we DO have, we know that it had the same rules as modern Shogi, that may or may not include drops. Emperor Go-Nara introduced drops into Shogi in the beginning of the 16th century. The question is, was Wa Shogi small enough to include drops if documents of that time indicate the same rules?

[PoopShitMario]

For example, Sho Shogi was played with drops at the time (WITH drunk elephant!). Since it's an older variant, before that point in the 16th century, it didn't have drops. Now we know 100% that Chu Shogi didn't have drops, because it's too large. And Wa Shogi is between Sho, and Chu, without any definitive evidence to go either way. My personal opinion is that it's smoother and more exciting with drops, I'm sure the programmer of shogivar shares my opinion.

[PoopShitMario]

If you notice, Wa Shogi has a closer arrangement to Sho Shogi than to Chu Shogi, the pieces aren't closely packed, and the 2nd row is open, giving the ability to build a castle the same way as in Modern and Sho shogi. Flying Falcon on the left side is almost exactly like the Bishop. Cloud eagle can play the role of vertical "ranging rook", and swallow wings the horizontal "ranging rook". Also, "Wa" means peaceful, and with drops, no piece "dies", they just change sides, no casualties.

[HIDETCHI]

We don't know whether the regular shogi adopted drop rule first. One theory says drop rule was played as early as in 11th century. If so, it must be played in Heian-shogi or Sho-shogi. But anyway we know drop rule was adopted no later than 16th century. If it was in 16th, perhaps the regular shogi was the first game to adopt drops, and it was applied back to other variants, too.

[HIDETCHI]

You can say Wa-shogi is between Sho and Chu, but it belongs to other party than the regular shogi families (Dai, Chu, and Sho) like Tori-shogi, right?, since the pieces are totally different from those in shogi families.

By the way, are you sure Wa means 'peace' in Wa-shogi? Wa also means 'Japan'. I think the meaning in Wa-shogi is the latter.

[PoopShitMario]

My counter argument is that Chu has a different promotion rule than, Dai, Tenjiku, Maka-Dai-Dai, Tai, etc. You don't have to capture to promote, you just have to move within the 4 promotion rows, the same rule as Tori, Sho, Modern, and Wa. Now, if you notice, Wa actually has THREE promotion rows, just like regular and Sho Shogi variants. This is another argument for having it belong to smaller Shogis rather than larger ones.

[PoopShitMario]

So if Chu has an exception concerning promotion compared to larger variants, who says there can't be an exception concerning drops as well? Wa is certainly small enough to have drops, and has the same open castle/piece structure as Modern and Sho. Chu's the first one that really starts "closing" it. I think people believe that Wa belongs to the larger variants, because that's what they were brought up to believe.

[PoopShitMario]

Actually, my mistake. Maka-Dai-Dai is the first one to have capture promotion. Although, I would still debate the 3 column promotion zone being the argument for Wa belonging with Sho and Modern.

[HIDETCHI]

Uh-huh, I agree it's closer to Sho and Modern than to Chu.

So in what order were they born?

Maybe,

1. Sho -> Modern -> Wa?

2. Sho -> Wa -> Modern?

3. Wa -> Sho -> Modern?

or maybe,

4. Wa(without drops) -> Sho(without drops) -> Modern -> Wa and Sho with drops?

5.6.7... and so on,,,

There're many many many possibilites. (^^;)

[PoopShitMario]

From what I've read, I'd infer..

Heian developed into Sho, Sho into Wa, neither had drops at the time. Then drops were introduced to both of them. Modern branched off from Sho, and all 3 were played with drops, then they stopped playing Sho with drops, because having the prince in the equation with drops was awkward and clumsy. Wa didn't have this problem, so they continued using drops for it.

As far as the bigger Shogis go: Heian Dai ->Dai -> Chu: was considered simplified Dai, is the order.

[TKR101010]

@PoopShitMario Actually Dai Dai Shogi is a little smaller than Maka Dai Dai and also promotes with capture rather than have a promotion zone.

[TKR101010]

@hanzimaster Some play it with drops, some don't.