I actually think scripture supports both free will with foreknowledge and predestination. This contradiction is yet another reason why it cannot be the word of god.
However, I assert that foreknowledge has very little difference from predestination when the being with the foreknowledge is also the manipulator of things. Let me demonstrate.
Lets suppose that I gave you two envelopes, A and B, and I told you that one had a check for one million dollars and the other had nothing. Then, I instructed you to choose one envelope. Now, if I knew you were going to choose envelope A and I didn't want you to have the money, I would simply put it in envelope B.
Now, maybe I didnt predestine you to take envelope A, but the result was the same.
Now, why did god put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden? What if by placing it at the edge, adam and eve would not have eaten from it? By placing it where he knew they would eat from it, didn't he ensure the event?
"What if by placing it at the edge, adam and eve would not have eaten from it? By placing it where he knew they would eat from it, didn't he ensure the event?"
That's one of my favorite points to raise when discussing such matters with willing Christians.
ive thought about this allot my self...all i can say its a contradiction and obviously the people who invented this fairy tale didnt put much thought into it. heres a another question for you to ponder on:
If free will came after the original sin...then who was guiding Eves Will to commit the sin? The devil? well who allowed the devil into the garden? God? Then whos to blame for the original sin? :-0
At nearly 62 years old, I have dwelt on the question many times. What is free will in the absence of any knowledge of good and evil? We are talking about two people who were supposedly no less innocent of true ill intent as two toddlers. How can two people who were so naive that they were less blameworthy than a baby be blamed for being talked into eating an apple? How can punishing the whole human race be justified for the actions of two individuals who were totally ignorant of right and wrong?
I have watched the video, and looked at the comments of others based on the information within the video.
Great question, and in my opinion this goes to showcase the constant contradictions within the bible itself.
The ancient lexicons used were constantly misinterpreted, and that part of the brain which gives us reasoning is special indeed and is found throughout the animal kingdom, though much, much smaller.
This question may never be answered, however, perplexing indeed.
Nice question. I have never thought of it that way before. How would creatures have free will, to choose good or evil, if they did not know what good or evil was to begin with.
The answer youre looking for...perhaps a simple contradiction not noticed by the authors, or perhaps a mistranslation throughout the ages. This is an interesting question, but you are correct to recognize that it doesnt really make sense. The key is not to think too in depth about speculated statements, the answer is right in front of you.
Right, I see what your saying and I would have to agree. The only sense I can make of it is that original sin was merely a metaphor for when we acheived sentience for which to establish morality. It morphed into doctrine as we began to record these early cosmologies.
Well, not many religious questions are answerable through reasoned logic. :P
According to Christians, we don't know the difference between good and evil - hence atheists are evil and amoral since our measure of good and evil comes from god. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could be interpreted as only giving humans the ability to *conceive* of good and evil.
But then why did Adam and Eve clothe themselves? Back to my first point - not answerable by reasoned logic. :D
Well, my point was that if the Tree did only give the ability to conceive of good and evil, but not tell the difference, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have known to clothe themselves.
Another good question - if they couldn't be naked after eating the fruit, one would assume that means being naked is evil. Why did god have evil unclothed people walking around his garden?!?
Gotcha! I see now. Heh, that just confuses matters even more, doesn't it? Sheesh...
Yes, I was wondering what the hell Adam and Eve were doing in the garden of Eden before they attained "knowledge". IF they didn't know the difference between, nor knew of good and evil, pretty much anything goes, right?
Free will means you are free to make your own choices, as opposed to every "choice" having already been made for you, in other words, determinism. I don't really think that morality has much to do with it.
As for animals... free will implies will. Are animals capable of high-level cognitive thought? Some probably are, some aren't. There are definitely animals capable of making decisions. Is that what we're talking about?
Bringing in morality makes things interesting. Where does morality come from? There are different answers to this question. But if morality is subjective and measured by societal norms, then in this sense chimps have morality. :)
Problem is of course that Christians aren't likely to agree. Not only cause morality comes from god and the bibble, but because that implies belief in objective morality, so chimps don't have morality, just social norms.
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I actually think scripture supports both free will with foreknowledge and predestination. This contradiction is yet another reason why it cannot be the word of god.
However, I assert that foreknowledge has very little difference from predestination when the being with the foreknowledge is also the manipulator of things. Let me demonstrate.
crazypills2 3 years ago
(2 of 3)
Lets suppose that I gave you two envelopes, A and B, and I told you that one had a check for one million dollars and the other had nothing. Then, I instructed you to choose one envelope. Now, if I knew you were going to choose envelope A and I didn't want you to have the money, I would simply put it in envelope B.
Now, maybe I didnt predestine you to take envelope A, but the result was the same.
crazypills2 3 years ago
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Now, why did god put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden? What if by placing it at the edge, adam and eve would not have eaten from it? By placing it where he knew they would eat from it, didn't he ensure the event?
crazypills2 3 years ago
That's a great logical assertion!
"What if by placing it at the edge, adam and eve would not have eaten from it? By placing it where he knew they would eat from it, didn't he ensure the event?"
That's one of my favorite points to raise when discussing such matters with willing Christians.
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
ive thought about this allot my self...all i can say its a contradiction and obviously the people who invented this fairy tale didnt put much thought into it. heres a another question for you to ponder on:
If free will came after the original sin...then who was guiding Eves Will to commit the sin? The devil? well who allowed the devil into the garden? God? Then whos to blame for the original sin? :-0
thetacogangsta 3 years ago
At nearly 62 years old, I have dwelt on the question many times. What is free will in the absence of any knowledge of good and evil? We are talking about two people who were supposedly no less innocent of true ill intent as two toddlers. How can two people who were so naive that they were less blameworthy than a baby be blamed for being talked into eating an apple? How can punishing the whole human race be justified for the actions of two individuals who were totally ignorant of right and wrong?
unseenstrings 3 years ago
I have watched the video, and looked at the comments of others based on the information within the video.
Great question, and in my opinion this goes to showcase the constant contradictions within the bible itself.
The ancient lexicons used were constantly misinterpreted, and that part of the brain which gives us reasoning is special indeed and is found throughout the animal kingdom, though much, much smaller.
This question may never be answered, however, perplexing indeed.
johnhart30 3 years ago
/watch?v=Q88r9jUarCc
thecommonsenseguy 3 years ago
Nice question. I have never thought of it that way before. How would creatures have free will, to choose good or evil, if they did not know what good or evil was to begin with.
jebus6kryst 3 years ago
The answer youre looking for...perhaps a simple contradiction not noticed by the authors, or perhaps a mistranslation throughout the ages. This is an interesting question, but you are correct to recognize that it doesnt really make sense. The key is not to think too in depth about speculated statements, the answer is right in front of you.
thecommonsenseguy 3 years ago
Right, I see what your saying and I would have to agree. The only sense I can make of it is that original sin was merely a metaphor for when we acheived sentience for which to establish morality. It morphed into doctrine as we began to record these early cosmologies.
But that's not really an answer, is it?
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Well, not many religious questions are answerable through reasoned logic. :P
According to Christians, we don't know the difference between good and evil - hence atheists are evil and amoral since our measure of good and evil comes from god. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could be interpreted as only giving humans the ability to *conceive* of good and evil.
But then why did Adam and Eve clothe themselves? Back to my first point - not answerable by reasoned logic. :D
devikkyrn 3 years ago
"But then why did Adam and Eve clothe themselves?"
According to scripture, they only did so AFTER eating the fruit.
"The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could be interpreted as only giving humans the ability to *conceive* of good and evil."
I thought of that already and it still begs my question.
What does free will mean without knowledge of good and evil?
Also, what does this say about animals and free will?
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Well, my point was that if the Tree did only give the ability to conceive of good and evil, but not tell the difference, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have known to clothe themselves.
Another good question - if they couldn't be naked after eating the fruit, one would assume that means being naked is evil. Why did god have evil unclothed people walking around his garden?!?
devikkyrn 3 years ago
Gotcha! I see now. Heh, that just confuses matters even more, doesn't it? Sheesh...
Yes, I was wondering what the hell Adam and Eve were doing in the garden of Eden before they attained "knowledge". IF they didn't know the difference between, nor knew of good and evil, pretty much anything goes, right?
The hole gets deeper...
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Free will means you are free to make your own choices, as opposed to every "choice" having already been made for you, in other words, determinism. I don't really think that morality has much to do with it.
devikkyrn 3 years ago
"Free will means you are free to make your own choices"
Yes, according to the propor definition. But this isn't what is exhuded by the bible and/or christianity.
If Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and evil, how were they to know that disobeying God was wrong?
Free will, off the bat, includes descisions between right or wrong. Most animals aren't considered to have free will BECAUSE they lack morality.
Did that make sense or did I muck it up even more?
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Good point with the disobeying god question. :D
As for animals... free will implies will. Are animals capable of high-level cognitive thought? Some probably are, some aren't. There are definitely animals capable of making decisions. Is that what we're talking about?
Bringing in morality makes things interesting. Where does morality come from? There are different answers to this question. But if morality is subjective and measured by societal norms, then in this sense chimps have morality. :)
devikkyrn 3 years ago
"But if morality is subjective and measured by societal norms, then in this sense chimps have morality. :)"
Your right there with me ;) I was thinking the same thing...
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Problem is of course that Christians aren't likely to agree. Not only cause morality comes from god and the bibble, but because that implies belief in objective morality, so chimps don't have morality, just social norms.
devikkyrn 3 years ago