You say NO it won't work, but not why it won`t work. You are an idiot. We know we can`t go on like this. You sound like an American. One of 300,000,000 million soon to be hungry people, who have nothing to offer the world. No resources left, of your own. NONE! The only way for America to survive is to continue to steal what you need from other more vulnerable nations. If any nation should be on board with RBE it should be America. You are dead without it! Be careful what you preach.
You are seriously misguided and overloaded with concern here Machwon :/ This isnt some mega corporation dictating ideas,,, this is a group of people working not for profit to create ideas to improve on the Toxic system of death we live in right now.
He has good insight in regards to resources and rationing but back in the soviet era, people were forced not to farm. Thus creating forceful rationing. Here's a question, if capitalism is so good then why do countries go bankrupt because of credit default swaps undercutting every bailout proposition? How can greed/ cronyism be eliminated? These are some serious questions one needs to address.
@rufdawg100 Because that's crony capitalism. a.k.a. "mixed economy" In capitalism, if you fail, the government doesn't bail you out. So you actually have to, you know, provide a serve people want or find a new job.
@Soulfree2008 No, you're just clueless about reality.
I don't want equality. I want the guy who cures cancer or figures out intergalatic travel to be rich and lazy people to only take as much as they contribute. That's the world I want to live in; a world of makers, not takers.
FOOL! In this world I go to work, work my ass off, pay taxes, just to have my government send some sloth a welfare cheque. I see our elderly, who have worked their whole lives and paid their taxes just to see their Medical retire with them and leave them to rot to death in their own beds. It is assholes like you that will delay an inevitable transference to a world where everyone gets a fare share.
You would have been the guy who said we would never be able to fly. We could never reach the moon. You called it a dream. Many dreams have become a reality, but not because of people like you. This current system is complete bs and you know it. It always first takes a dream. I dream that capitalism will one day no longer be necessary. Btw you have nothing to offer either and I shall pay no attention to you.
You're a "Pearlist" right. Physical Evidence And Reasoned Logic, right? Tell me how rational allocation of resources and logical production of good would work without market prices to forecast future demand without massive waste. This is a question no Zeitgeister has yet to answer, in fact Fresco has refused to even try claiming it's a trade secret of his. You guys claim it's an objective answer that can be solved technically, so show us.
This is THE primary problem. This moneyless communism has no idea what to make in which quantities or who and to allocate different amounts to. Even barring the ethical problems of revoking property rights, the sheer economics of it makes no sense.
Crony capitalism does need to be dealt with, but removing prices and money altogether is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
@machwon Ok, so you want an answer. Well rational allocation of resources would mean that you only allocate an amount of resource that can be sustained, so waste doesn't matter. And logical production would be get an order first then fill it. In a world were people aren't working and robots are doing the work consumerism can stop and advertising can stop. It is no secret what people need. Access to good food, clean water, shelter, clean air, and civil liberties. The problem is people.
@BibleBeltPearlist Should of clarified; I want a non-vague answer. This sounds nice, but it's unbelievably vague. What is "good food?" A nutrition rich slop? A made from scratch gourmet meal from a 5 star chef using the finest ingredients? What qualifies as shelter? A huge house? Apartment? Or a giant facilities with thousands of cots? Using objective scientific controls how will these choices be made for the demands people will have years down the road it takes for the production to take place?
@machwon Sorry, I'm ignorant of the actual details. I have no idea how much of any sustainable resource there is on the earth. I do think that if the resources of the earth were shared equally we would all be kings, meaning I think we could all live upper class lives. The problem is people can't stand sharing equally. It is understandable seeing that people aren't created equal. How do you think the world would be if the resources were used efficiency and equally?
@BibleBeltPearlist Fun fact: it takes 10 whole years to make nitinol (memory metals) from ore to ingot. You mean that it will be like the USSR where you will place an order for a memory metal car 10 years in advance? This sounds like a terrible world to live in.
Why do so many 'rational' atheists leave their brains at the door when it comes to everything non-religious? ROBOTS WILL MAKE EVERYTHING ACCORDING TO SCIENCE! Uh, no.
@machwon You do realize that if man kind creates a goal and has enough support it is almost impossible for it to not happen, given time. You have seen assimo right? Have you watched transcendent man? Robots already basically make a car. I don't mean that robots will do everything, but they can replace us as labor.
@machwon Actually if you look at production rationally. It takes less workers to do the same amount of production every year because robots are replacing workers and jobs are done more efficiency.
@machwon Dammit, I'm not throwing my brains out the window. You just view the world inside a fucking closed box. You don't understand the actual possibilities that exist. Its like talking to someone who only sees the present and can't see the future. I just watched a guy solve a rubiks cube blindfolded in 30 secs and you say robots can't make shit in the future. Your the short-sides person. You CAN"T DREAM unlike steve jobs who gave us the damn iphone. Technology changes limits. Dream!
@BibleBeltPearlist You're missing the point. You can have a million robots, it's not going to raise a cow faster or turn ore into nitinol that much faster. Telling me to dream is akin to telling me I need to have faith. Steve Jobs gave us the iPhone because he had a profit incentive, not because he was a prophet.
You're not a pearlist, you're a theist. You turned science into your god of the gaps. Science =/= magic. Evolution requires and has evidence, RBE needs only faith and donations.
@machwon You my friend are a fucking idiot. We don't need cows or nitinol. You act like there is no evidence for technology transforming humanity, yet it is all around you. Its not magic. Whatever man, were all doomed lets just give up now. And actually jobs wasn't motivated by money. When he came back to apple he didn't even take a salary. He lived in a reasonably sized house. He was motivated by creativity. He liked to merge beauty and technology.
@BibleBeltPearlist So no beef or memory metal in an RBE? Gee, talk about bait and switch.
But yes, I'm the problem. I remember back when NASA was dreaming of going to the moon, they made movies and begged for donations for more movies and did a bunch of tours where they had Q&As and power point presentations about how we should go to the moon.
Clearly, you're more scientifically minded than me who demands work be done to make it possible. I'm a fucking idiot and you're the PEARList. Good job!
@machwon I guess you can't see the difference between an idea and how it is achieved. It's the idea that is important. That is what I'm defending. I'm not defending the details of how zeitgiest and the venus project say it should happen. I'm defending going to the moon. Not which rocket fuel will get us there. But you only care about the details. Asking for me to give you the details in a comments section. You demand work be done? First, we need show people the goal.
@machwon I agree that the begging for donations to make a big movie is stupid. Does that mean I rule out the venus project because of one thing? No, a PEARList looks at ideas point by point. Movie = bad point. Getting off currency, taking away power from people who want to wait till the oil runs out = good point. We could have solar power if we demanded it and stopped using gasoline. Nobody will though, not enough people. If everyone used solar it would be much cheaper and get better.
@BibleBeltPearlist I think that every human is entitled to good food, clean water, shelter, and civil liberties. If that statement is true. Why has capitalism resulted in so many people without these basic things. That should be the first step of a society to provide these to every person. There are plenty of resources to make this happen. And if there isn't then population control should be started.
@machwon Future demand would be determined by future sustainability of the resources needed to make that good. We would prioritize our resources. Use them first to provide food, water, shelter, and clean air for every human. The resources left after that would be prioritized further. Next, resources for transportation and roads, then resources for probably hospitals, police, and fire. Next maybe communication and so on. Once resources aren't sustainable your done.
My question is: Why would the FED want the money back? Isn't the purpose of the FED to create money and make it available for the people. What sence would it make if that money goes back to the FED, where it is looked up in a vault and why would they take intrest on that money? IS the FED really working that way or is Zeitgeit just making things up?
I would be really grateful if you could enlighten me:)
@mathstef There's a great video about this FringeElements did about this and points out some of this mistakes Zeitgeist makes about Fed monetary policy. No it's not completely accurate but it's not completely false at the same time.
@machwon I just discovered Zeitgeist in the morning and I am glad that I finaly found a critical voice. I have some basic economical question, please excuse that I ask this basic things, but I am new to economics and I dont really have a clue how it works. In the Movie they say that when the Fed creates money and hand it ou to the banks it takes intrest on this money, so its impossible for all the banks to pay all the debt back as there wasnt enough money created in the first place.
'my challenge is as follows, without sound money, without private ownership of all means of productions, without exchange-it can not work. remove ONE of these components and you have recipe for disaster' thats right. which is why they ALL have to be removed silly, you dont understand TVP or science.
@thecagophilist Again, this shit has been tried with dire and detrimental consequences. TZM/TVP are NOT new ideas.They just have fancier packaging to fool people who are clueless about histories and other political thought into cracking open their wallets.
The multitude of subjects, studies, philosophies etc, used to present The Zeitgeist Movement's views is opposite of hollow. If you judge a meaningful discussion that Joseph incites after only 9 minutes of a portion of only 1 interview you should reconsider life. Or keep listening to the empty suits.
... if we ever wana show real change in the world, if you want somthing done right, do it yourself. Its not that hard, im making plans myself to help make the world a better place, but the more people attempting the faster its gona happen! So dont diss a great idea just becuz its presented in a bad way or by questionable people. Do the analysis yourself, and make modifactions as needed, till we get a working module in the "real" world!
@Mastervitro It's not a great idea, it's a very old idea in fancy packaging that has failed numerous times. TZM/TVP preys on people who have no education on historical attempts at these kinds of societies and saps them for donation money. It really is that simple.
@machwon But has there been any historical attempt at a purely scientific, resource-based economy? A RBE (to me) may seem like "socialism" or "Marxism" because of those kernels of elements in the idea, but it is not. Socialism and the like still had currency, still had money. A RBE has no money- it is based ENTIRELY on science and resource-management. And without money, crime is all but eliminated, poverty disappears, and abhorrent human behavior (conditioned by the current system)...
You can't honestly tell me that you think the current system is the best we can do, right? Do you think the current system is morally for the better of the human species?
We have to start taking care of one another, and the planet. Or we're going to kill ourselves off and everything else as well. Money is a concept- it doesnt really exist, it separates us from ourselves and one another. We need to watch out for each other!
@StarvinLeeMarvin Re: current system. This is just more of the same from Zeitgeister's false dichotomy because they lack the ability to understand they are not the only people out there with nuanced thought. There's only 2 proposed systems RBE or status-quo.
Even if the status-quo is bad (which I would agree it is) 'RBE' is a far worse solution to those problems.
@StarvinLeeMarvin "purely scientific" where people eat nutrition rich slop and sleep in small capsules in a large facility because it's "scientifically efficient" No, nor would anyone want to live in that world nor is it what TVP advocates. TVP is end communism with a fancier name and vague "solutions."
Human behavior is not via conditioning, again, this is Marxist thought in a new suit. Tabula rasa (blank slate) is pseudo-scientific nonsense. /watch?v=CuQHSKLXu2c
... what the venus project proposes, a free and open society with abundance. Do the very simple math, and youll know the world is many times capable of supporting the world population, and as technology progresses, that number will increase. I proposed a working transition plan to the zeitgeist movement, only to get the comment deleted by Peter himself, saying we cant force the monitary system to collapse, even though thats the inevtible conclusion he stated. We have to make our own plans...
Although i agree that the zeitgeist movemnet is a sham, and the people behind it arent ever gona get anywere, that it may even potentialy be part of a bigger conspiracy, I do however know that a resource based economy, witch is a real world econonmy that we tecnicaly already live in, will eventualy make currecny obsolete. It is inevitable, once automation has replaced the lining factors that keep the monitary system going, only 2 things can emerge, A scientific dictatorship, or...
Easy to criticise, you seem to miss the whole point of what ZM is about. If someone simply doesn't want to learn something, they wont. As you have demonstrated here.
You really need to base your argument with some sort of evidence instead of resorting to coming up with nicknames. They're cheap attacks,
@ejpetersondub Those who ignore history are doomed and condemned to repeat it. I can and do explain myself well, Zeitgesiters are just too dim to understand things not spoon fed to them. Besides, TZM is dead anyways.
@machwon "Those who ignore history are doomed and condemned to repeat it." Do you think of yourself as clever or poetic by saying this? I mean, what history are you even referring to? On a side note, you actually believe the system we have now is better? If you answered "yes"; How long do you think this system will be able to go on?
I can't tell if you are genuinely deranged or dishonest. You didn't refute any of the arguments presented in any of the films. None. You gave no evidence to support any of your bullshit claims. Your whole monologue amounted to absolutely fuck all in terms of substance. Addendum and Moving Forward are two of the most heavily sourced films ever made... there is ALOT of data backing up the train of thought. Present reasoned evidence to back up your argument or you may as well go "blah blah blah".
And its funny how you throw around all these claims of the movies being "false" and yet you don't provide one shred of evidence or logical insight as to how any of it is so. Your inability at even attempting to PROVE how a RBE is so bad just further supports the idea because people who are against are only so because they are indoctrinated to think so. It's no pyramid scheme either. It's circular, yet you see pyramid. You are so skewed.
Lol you are so full of shit. We have not tried anything like a RBE "millions of times". And of course, you like playing taxes and you believe if money didn't exist the world would explode. You are literally saying that trying to live smarter is dumb, and that we need to keep living like idiots to survive. It is only through your complete inability to comprehend change, that you disagree. Sure, babies need to die of starvation. We need wars. We need poverty!!! Long live the corrupt!!!
@ejpetersondub TVP/TZM is just a scam for people who are clueless about history and never looked into other political philosophies to sap them for "film donations."
@machwon What does history have to do with the future? I know plenty about history. The thing is times change and while we can learn from history, history shouldn't dictate the future. Again, you make baseless claims. I am a supporter, I know history, I've done extensive research on other possibilities, and I haven't given Peter a dime. Shows what you know. The only way to explain your position is the fact that you are indoctrinated. You can't explain anything you support.
@machwon Somehow I don't believe that you have either. Teenagers such as yourself would love to rub whatever they DO know in other peoples faces. You rub NOTHING in other people's faces (nothing of substance anyways).
@dufke007 The fact that you can't understand the difference between "You have to pay taxes" and "I agree with the tax system" just shows how much of a mental midget you and @pDiceS are. So it,s been fun, have a nice day.
@machwon "You addressed the comment to me "He" in that case would be PdIceS since there is only 3 people in question." If you're saying this in response to my request in pointing out where it says I don't understand the difference between "You have to pay taxes" and "I agree with the tax system"... Good job.
@machwon He's right, he said "I do disagree that you don't have to pay taxes". Having said that; you might want to back such statements up with things called "arguments", instead of uttering smug laughter.
wee cant live in worss times than things are now just going to get worss millions of kids comming out of school for wot?fat cats get richer and exempt from the lawand the mass of the world get worss off .how much more info does mean need to understand wee live in a fcked up system.
@burton2114 Part 3 has its issues too, the whole chipping and tax protester stuff is bullshit. Even so, fiat money stuff doesnt logally follow that we should do away with money period.
@dufke007 It doesn't matter if the foundation of TZM/TVP is fallacious. I'm striking the root here, I don't need to go swatting all the leaves. RBE fails because rational top down planning of an economy is economy is impossible especially without market prices. Not hard to believe, not hard hard to understand, not yet to be discovered; impossible. Also the Tabula Rasa/New Economic Man hypothesis is bunk like tax protester arguments. I'm all for getting rid of taxes, but you do have to pay them.
Also, I agree with some of the points that you've made. Many people do not take criticism of the Venus Project well, even if it's constructive. As it is now, the idea of the VP is not well formulated enough to function in reality, the people following it are just not quite smart enough to understand that.
People are forced to use money. A person would have to go live in Siberia or Alaska and live off of the land if they wanted to get away from using money.
People are starving by the millions, wars are being waged endlessly, what is your solution?
So we can see you are a very simple minded person with how you attack these films and shows that you fail to realize something he did in his last film compared to others. If you would of payed close attention you of realized that he actually brings together lots of people who have there PHD and doctrines and very well aware of the problems that exist. You can talk all the trash you want about zeitgeist, but all you are doing is spouting off at the mouth like a kid who wants attention.
I can understand why you would not like the first one when it comes to the religion and 9/11. But it did hold truth how the central bank got manipulated in and as for addendum, it simply describes how money is created with some personal insight behind it, but other wise it is all based on facts. As for his third one, He does all of those thing you talk about with the bells and soothing voice to make it interesting, to keep peoples attention.
Manipulative propaganda is on CNN dude ! :) NOT in the ZeitGeist. That's all about freedom. Something you may NEVER know nothing about you sicko ! I feel mercy for you dude ! Again: GET HELP !
Yes! All the chemical elements are within your grasp, the only limiting factors are technical problems. Money does solve these problems. Technology will make the Venus project possible, mock me today but it will pass in time.
Why did you even make this stupid video. You attacking something you do not understand.
Your smiling within the movie is realy stupid. You think you understanding ekonomie, why didnt you sugest what would be good plan. If you do not know then shut up , and have good life.
@machwon "Aside from one light bulb in the entire world, you have another example or is just this anomalous exception? "
Printers for example. It comes down to chips that blocks printer ( breaks it ) after certain amount of pages , up to the chips that doesn't allow you to refill cartridges ( you have to buy new one ) .
The world is so full of this crap it is amazing how people are too brainwashed to see. I only point one of the best documented cases .
@tobiasravn They said the same thing in 1900. They'll say about automation today in 2100. Same about 2100 in 2200. All along the way other technologies will allow for more jobs to be made with less time and labor to make more. /watch?v=o9SDRtj8fj4
@shogu666 Author is a term used for written works. This is a video, retard.
Planned obsolescence is only true in the sence that iPods are only meant to last as long as the technology in it. Would you still use an indestructible Sony Walkman from 1980? How about a portable CD player from the 90s? I still have a working iPod from 05 but it's not as good as my cell phone's music cloud technology
If companies intentionally made faulty items, they wouldn't be in business very long.
@shogu666 Would be nice if you can show my a light bulb that's been able to to go on for more than 10 years that has been allowed to turn off and on as needed and not continually lit. You see, any light bulb can last for a very long time, it's when you turn it off and on that really wears it out. Then again, we are dealing with The Zeitgeist Movement. Science isn't your forte, just a nice plataude. Otherwise you wouldn't be promoting quack cancer cures and free energy scams. ;)
@machwon Would be nice if you can show my a light bulb that's been able to to go on for more than 10 years that has been allowed to turn off and on as needed and not continually lit.
GO watch documentary called "light bulb conspiracy".
watch?v=I5DCwN28y8o
The ZM does not promote quack cancer cures nor free energy scams. Non of it is proven .
But one is certain there is no profit in free energy so it wont happen even if it is possible.
@shogu666 No free energy isn't possible because it violates the first and or second rule of thermodynamics. And you do promote quack medicine, or was "Burzynski, the Movie" a figment of our collective imaginations?
I've had a printers that lasted for many years only ever upgraded for more or better features. So I guess you're full of shit or I'm good at picking out the good ones.
Again, light bulbs only go out quickly because we turn them off and on. Those light bulbs continuously stay lit.
@shogu666 Companies don't make you do anything unless they work with the government to force you to buy a product or service. I still have my old iPod. It still works fine except the back light cuts out at times. I CHOOSE not to use it because I CHOSE to use my Android phone with Google Music instead. I CHOOSE to recycle my older phone because I CHOSE to upgrade it. I can still use the phone I had 4 years ago, but I prefer to have smart phone capabilities. T-Mobile never put a gun to my head.
@shogu666 Even still, you can upgrade your computer all you want. Nothing is stopping you except for hardware limitations that would still exist in your utopian wet dream. I can go out tomorrow and double my possessing speed with a new possessor or my 3D video capabilities with a new video card. Or I can buy the same video card and SLI it. :D
If you're only way to debate a topic is to tell people to read a 50 page document, it shows weakness on your part in your ability to convey ideas yourself. This also seems to be the case here. You make claims, but I never see any actual arguments based on evidence. The bit about the USSR is irrelevant. Russian communism and a resource-based economy are different methods, executed very differently. Then again, it doesn't seem you're interested in understanding.
@Nathan173AB That's because it's hard to find anyone in TZM with an IQ more than their shoe size and couldn't understand the argument, let alone address it. Then again, it's not much different than TZM wanting people to watch a movie that takes roughly the same amount of time to watch. I'm sorry if reading scares you, but life's a bitch. 'Communism' and 'socialism' are just labels and they share 3 key attributes that RBE has which makes it 'impossible,' as detailed by that article.
@machwon I recognize the fallibility of passing on propaganda without understanding the ideas behind it to back it up, which is why I don't do that. Based on that post you displayed in your video at 7:22, it seems to me like you're the one being unreasonable. You're obviously not shy of using "derogatory generalizations" as he pointed out, given your slur about TZM's IQs. I'm sorry if understanding ideas well enough to convey them in your own words scares you but, as you said, life's a bitch.
@machwon As it so happens, socialism has some major differences from an RBE. Since you have no interest in trying to understand it yourself, I will gladly point it out to you. Socialist systems like the communism of the USSR allocated resources to the people through the standards put forth by the political leaders. An RBE allocates resources based on what resources are available and what can be done with those resources. They are then made publicly available to the people on an AS-NEEDED basis.
@machwon I never said you didn't understand Scientology. I'm sure you do. That's why you use it as an example of religious fanaticism, of which it is. However, the comparison is irrelevant for two reasons. For one, even though you may understand Scientology, you do not understand an RBE as you compare it to economic models of the past, of which it is not.
@Nathan173AB I'm comparing your logic. Because I don't agree with RBE, I must not understand it. I've seen both Zeitgeist films, I've seen 2 Fresco docus, I've heard the entire Stefan debate with VTV, TWICE, I had Zeigeister friends (who all stopped drinkin' that kool-aid) and I've put up with 2 of your most vile and idiotic YouTube unoffical spokespeople. How much more shit should I ingest before I "get it"?
I guess just watching 1 film is enough so long as I agree right?
@machwon Yeah you're not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying you have no room to either agree or disagree with the RBE because you don't understand it. Really, you don't. You keep comparing the RBE to socialism, which is a false comparison because they are two very different things. I will give that lecture a chance, but it's probably not relevant because AGAIN, socialism and the RBE are not the same thing.
@machwon I, too, have seen the Zeitgeist movies, heard Fresco talk several times, am somewhat familiar with the Stefan/VTV debate, and I'm not drawing nearly the same conclusions you are. I can only judge your understanding based on your presentation which, I have to say, is extremely lacking. You only back up what your saying by telling people to "read this, watch that." Sorry, but if you can't convey the ideas in that media you want me to watch in your own words, why should I listen to you?
@machwon I, too, have seen the Zeitgeist movies, heard Fresco talk several times, am somewhat familiar with the Stefan/VTV debate, and I'm not drawing nearly the same conclusions you are. I can only judge your understanding based on your presentation which, I have to say, is extremely lacking. You only back up what your saying by telling people to "read this, watch that." Sorry, but if you can't convey the ideas in that media you want me to watch in your own words, why should I listen to you?
@machwon Now, if you could actually present your case in meaningful dialogue instead of copy-paste. ad hominem attack, and derogatory labels, then you might be taken more seriously. Oh, and having two friends who stopped "drinking the kool-aid" means nothing. You're just using that to reaffirm your own position, when in reality they might not be any less ignorant than you. Come back when you have a cogent argument that you can present YOURSELF without mooching off of other intellectuals.
@Nathan173AB I've already explained: No money, no exchange, no private property = inability to determine what to produce. If you don't know what to make, you've have a surplus of things people don't want and rationing of things people do want. The price system serves an important role, despise what some old economic illiterate in a swap or some new age marimba banging conspiracy theorist says.
@machwon And you say you understand, when I've already rebutted that. AGAIN, resource-based economics produces goods based on an AS-NEEDED basis. In other words, based on WHAT PEOPLE WANT. It's not hard to figure out what people want. So, where is the problem, and WHY do you need a fail market crapitalist system to figure out what people want? Really, you don't.
@Nathan173AB So you create the machines as needed? Machines don't just make whatever you want them to make. Machines take time to plan, design, and build. Those machines need to go into factories and require specialized and skilled labor to maintain and operate. You're going to do this all because 1 person wants 1 kind of device no one else will want? That's where market efficiency is needed. It's not fail, you just are economically illiterate.
@machwon Why is that a problem? Why can't that be accomplished in the infrastructure of a RBE? Once again, you make a claim without making a cogent argument. That's not good enough. Explain WHY.
@Nathan173AB I already did! Just because you don't understand elementary economics doesn't make my argument incoherent. I'm not going into a detailed explanation about the price mechanisms and economic calculation on a YouTube comment. I've explained why an RBE won't work in the blog post and gave additional resources. If you don't to read it, then go be ignorant somewhere else.
@machwon I read your blog post and already found a flaw. You further demonstrate your ignorance by stating a RBE lacks a method for gauging the impact of products. That simply isn't true. Just because there's no money involved, that doesn't mean resources aren't gauged. Using your iPhone example, Capitalism sees an iPhone as $400. A RBE sees an iPhone as X grams of aluminum, glass, silicon, etcetera and leaves it at that. If you ask me, the latter makes a lot more sense.
@Nathan173AB This what I mean, People from TZM/TVP have 0 understanding of economics. They think prices are just set arbitrarily. Prices are set by supply and demand. That's why gold is worth more per ounce than rice. Rice is far more abundant than gold so it curbs demand and prices fall. Gold is the opposite. Capitalism doesn't say anything costs anything. It's millions of actors working together to produce and consume that decides what labor you need to provide to society to receive goods.
@Nathan173AB Now if you make a good no one wants, the price for it plumits and you occur losses. Because of this price, you can see this right away and takes steps to correct it before you run out of resources to access to create even more waste. Even if you make EVERYTHING abundant (i.e. Garden of Eden economics) you are still faced with the scarcity of time. Every moment you spend on R&D, production methods, design on (x) is time you could of been using on (y) which is more valuable.
@machwon I just told you how resources and products are gauged in a RBE. Everything is MEASURED according to HOW MUCH RESOURCES IT CONSUMES. I will speak in "price" terms for you since that's the only standard you seem to understand. In a RBE, an iPhone, the "price" of it is the materials that make it up. In other words, X amount of aluminum, glass, silicon, etcetera.
@Nathan173AB I just told you how resources and products are gauged in a RBE. Everything is MEASURED according to HOW MUCH RESOURCES IT CONSUMES."
Resources are not homogeneous. You can't add apples and oranges. A unit of steel has different priorities on people's value scales than does that same unit in rice, or wheat, or silver...etc. How, without money, can you gauge heterogeneous goods into something homogeneous to make calculations?
@machwon Another important thing to understand is that in a RBE, all resources are "declared the common heritage of all people," as Jacque puts it. As such, there is no need to set prices on items if it's all publicly available. The only limit or "price," in your terms, are the amount of resources that are available to meet demand. So YES, supply and demand do have impact. "Supply" is the resources you have and "demand" is what dictates how those resources are to be utilized.
@Nathan173AB "Supply" is the resources you have and "demand" is what dictates how those resources are to be utilized." Now we're back to iPhone or cheeseburger problem again.
Please, you are not understanding the argument. I tried giving you the simple version and you're too simple to understand it. Watch at least one of the videos or kick rocks. No tickey, no washy.
@machwon Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I right in that your problem is that the RBE does not create a value baseline for the two items? If I'm correct, then quite frankly, the iPhone/cheeseburger problem is the most asinine argument I've ever heard. Subtracting a cheeseburger from an iPhone makes about as much mathematical sense as dividing by zero. It just doesn't work on a fundamental level. If anything, that function is a FLAW of capitalism, not a strength.
@machwon What I meant by "value baseline" is having a method to define the value of completely different items (iPhone/cheeseburger) with the same unit (a currency). It seems to be that that is what you're saying is wrong with the RBE, is that it lacks a universal unit of value. If I'm still wrong, I won't comment again until I watch the lecture.
@machwon You need to clarify something as well. You said "Every moment you spend on R&D, production methods, design on (x) is time you could of been using on (y) which is more valuable." Okay, what is (y)? Assuming (y) is actually making the goods and getting them out there, then I don't see the problem. Obviously, if spending to much time on (x) is inefficient, then what makes you think a RBE would do that? It wouldn't. You're making up irrelevant problems man.
@Nathan173AB And now that we have abundant access to (x) which people desire/need less than (y) which people did need/desire you have squandered that precious time and society is worse off. However, you wouldn't have a system in place telling you you are making a wrong decision until it is too late.
@machwon Secondly, either way, that comparison between Scientology and RBE advocates is irrelevant because they're not the same thing. That's the problem with analogies. They only work up to a certain point. Think of it this way. You've got two sandwiches. One has meat on it and the other has shit on it. Taking a bite out of one is not the same action as taking a bite out of the other, even though you appear to be doing the same thing.
@Nathan173AB Secondly, YOU are not understanding the position. Which is why I want people to read those articles before I debated them. It's not about red scares or totalism, it was about the 'impossibility' of a system without exchange, private property (including in producer's goods) and money. If Fresco was around in those days, it too would of been included in the article. /watch?v=alqUqdbfxhk (edit: I linked to an older version of the same talk)
it must be terrible how you've posted a video displaying your impressive knowledge of economics and nobody appreciates.... 'dislike' bar looks like a light saber!
(1of2) Of course the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project are not the panacea to all of our problems; but they try to wake people up and to start making us to understand how the world works; including the bad things we should change some how, and the good things that can be done.
(2/2) I really appreciate you, machwon, for posting this video, because people shouldn't believe and have faith in all they are told; however, I think these groups are a good thing for keeping society evolutioning. It's just a seed; it's up to each one to read, investigate, reason, question everything and looking for solutions.
@Peshet I agree with a lot of the problems TZM points out, but I don't agree with the solutions and conspiracy theories they promote. Thanks for the positive comment. :D
@machwon Perhaps next time you look into the mirror you will see yourself as others do, simply a dirty asshole. Such a whiney and demanding bitch aren't you? :-)>
I think I get it. The best solution to any problem is to say its not possible. Huh? Aren't you helping us by pointing out flaws? Go majority....fuck the haters.
@mrbigtruth34 If there's a hole in the dam and it's only getting bigger and someone says "I know, we should just start drinking it as it comes out" and I say "No, that's a bad solution" doesn't mean I don't see a problem. There's a problem, but the medicine you provide is a dangerous placebo. How about we repair the damn, and get rid of the fucktards called 'The State" who keeps putting holes in it.
@machwon You sir are not getting the point. If economics was viable how come it hasn't solved anything! We have post industrial means of production while utilizing an industrial economic system? I am not saying I agree with the Venus or Zeitgiest movements/projects. All I can say is figure it out for yourself and don't worry yourself about the so-called world. As a biological organism we are doomed for extinction and death anyway regardless of what we do or do not do.
@anthonyed2002 If you're going to hold me to any kind of standard, you should first adhere to it yourself. Cry logical fallicy if you want, you'd be wrong, but don't in the next breath use a logical fallacy.
This is why I'm calling you an idiot. It's not an ad-hom, it's an argument with hard evidence backing it up. Idiot.
@machwon "It became apparent that I wasn't watching a documentary. I was watching a manipulative propaganda film." Because they used striking imagery... in a video... to make a point?
"Merola is the attack dog" Because he's a forum moderator?
Too extreme for my taste. That's one man's opinion. Also, not sure what the logical fallacy is in "this is crap"... also just one man's opinion, which also seems to be what this whole ten-minutes-of-my-life-I'll-never-get-back video is. Brighten up, DFTT
@anthonyed2002 "Because they used striking imagery... in a video... to make a point?" Yes, that movie was a giant appeal to emotions.
"Because he's a forum moderator?" Don't play stupid. You know damn well that's one of the most oppressive forums on the internet. That's why so many posts are prefaced with "I might get banned for this but..."
Now see how I made a rebuttal and not just calling your comment crap. It's a baseless assertion. This is why I call you an idiot again, idiot.
I'm not saying THEY didn't use any dirty tricks. As far as I can gather, they're nothing but. I don't think that automatically classifies it as propaganda though... unless this video is too. As for my comment, I stand by it. It also occurs to me that they can mod their own forum however they please. I don't get what you intend to accomplish by calling me an idiot, but to each his own. I doubt you're really as much of a jerk as I might think you are from two paragraphs, but..
You say NO it won't work, but not why it won`t work. You are an idiot. We know we can`t go on like this. You sound like an American. One of 300,000,000 million soon to be hungry people, who have nothing to offer the world. No resources left, of your own. NONE! The only way for America to survive is to continue to steal what you need from other more vulnerable nations. If any nation should be on board with RBE it should be America. You are dead without it! Be careful what you preach.
Canada
mrjrm007 39 minutes ago
Bold claims, but you didn't rebut any zeitgeist arguments.....
mikhonda 1 hour ago
You are seriously misguided and overloaded with concern here Machwon :/ This isnt some mega corporation dictating ideas,,, this is a group of people working not for profit to create ideas to improve on the Toxic system of death we live in right now.
Soulfree2008 1 day ago
Wow where did this guy come from?
He has good insight in regards to resources and rationing but back in the soviet era, people were forced not to farm. Thus creating forceful rationing. Here's a question, if capitalism is so good then why do countries go bankrupt because of credit default swaps undercutting every bailout proposition? How can greed/ cronyism be eliminated? These are some serious questions one needs to address.
rufdawg100 1 day ago
@rufdawg100 Because that's crony capitalism. a.k.a. "mixed economy" In capitalism, if you fail, the government doesn't bail you out. So you actually have to, you know, provide a serve people want or find a new job.
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon in a capitalist society you will NEVER have equality, ever...
Soulfree2008 1 day ago
@Soulfree2008 Good.
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon If you dont think equality of essential life resources is important, then you have already debunked yourself... nuff said :/
Soulfree2008 1 day ago
@Soulfree2008 No, you're just clueless about reality.
I don't want equality. I want the guy who cures cancer or figures out intergalatic travel to be rich and lazy people to only take as much as they contribute. That's the world I want to live in; a world of makers, not takers.
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon
FOOL! In this world I go to work, work my ass off, pay taxes, just to have my government send some sloth a welfare cheque. I see our elderly, who have worked their whole lives and paid their taxes just to see their Medical retire with them and leave them to rot to death in their own beds. It is assholes like you that will delay an inevitable transference to a world where everyone gets a fare share.
mrjrm007 9 minutes ago
This video reeks appeal to emotion.
dreamvoidTV 2 days ago
@dreamvoidTV I hope i didn't make it as obvious as the Zeitgeist films did.
machwon 2 days ago
You would have been the guy who said we would never be able to fly. We could never reach the moon. You called it a dream. Many dreams have become a reality, but not because of people like you. This current system is complete bs and you know it. It always first takes a dream. I dream that capitalism will one day no longer be necessary. Btw you have nothing to offer either and I shall pay no attention to you.
BibleBeltPearlist 2 days ago
@BibleBeltPearlist Parables only work in religion.
You're a "Pearlist" right. Physical Evidence And Reasoned Logic, right? Tell me how rational allocation of resources and logical production of good would work without market prices to forecast future demand without massive waste. This is a question no Zeitgeister has yet to answer, in fact Fresco has refused to even try claiming it's a trade secret of his. You guys claim it's an objective answer that can be solved technically, so show us.
machwon 2 days ago
@machwon
This is THE primary problem. This moneyless communism has no idea what to make in which quantities or who and to allocate different amounts to. Even barring the ethical problems of revoking property rights, the sheer economics of it makes no sense.
Crony capitalism does need to be dealt with, but removing prices and money altogether is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
MrPatrickHenryCheryl 2 days ago
@machwon Ok, so you want an answer. Well rational allocation of resources would mean that you only allocate an amount of resource that can be sustained, so waste doesn't matter. And logical production would be get an order first then fill it. In a world were people aren't working and robots are doing the work consumerism can stop and advertising can stop. It is no secret what people need. Access to good food, clean water, shelter, clean air, and civil liberties. The problem is people.
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@BibleBeltPearlist Should of clarified; I want a non-vague answer. This sounds nice, but it's unbelievably vague. What is "good food?" A nutrition rich slop? A made from scratch gourmet meal from a 5 star chef using the finest ingredients? What qualifies as shelter? A huge house? Apartment? Or a giant facilities with thousands of cots? Using objective scientific controls how will these choices be made for the demands people will have years down the road it takes for the production to take place?
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon Sorry, I'm ignorant of the actual details. I have no idea how much of any sustainable resource there is on the earth. I do think that if the resources of the earth were shared equally we would all be kings, meaning I think we could all live upper class lives. The problem is people can't stand sharing equally. It is understandable seeing that people aren't created equal. How do you think the world would be if the resources were used efficiency and equally?
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@BibleBeltPearlist Fun fact: it takes 10 whole years to make nitinol (memory metals) from ore to ingot. You mean that it will be like the USSR where you will place an order for a memory metal car 10 years in advance? This sounds like a terrible world to live in.
Why do so many 'rational' atheists leave their brains at the door when it comes to everything non-religious? ROBOTS WILL MAKE EVERYTHING ACCORDING TO SCIENCE! Uh, no.
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon You do realize that if man kind creates a goal and has enough support it is almost impossible for it to not happen, given time. You have seen assimo right? Have you watched transcendent man? Robots already basically make a car. I don't mean that robots will do everything, but they can replace us as labor.
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@machwon Actually if you look at production rationally. It takes less workers to do the same amount of production every year because robots are replacing workers and jobs are done more efficiency.
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@machwon Dammit, I'm not throwing my brains out the window. You just view the world inside a fucking closed box. You don't understand the actual possibilities that exist. Its like talking to someone who only sees the present and can't see the future. I just watched a guy solve a rubiks cube blindfolded in 30 secs and you say robots can't make shit in the future. Your the short-sides person. You CAN"T DREAM unlike steve jobs who gave us the damn iphone. Technology changes limits. Dream!
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@BibleBeltPearlist You're missing the point. You can have a million robots, it's not going to raise a cow faster or turn ore into nitinol that much faster. Telling me to dream is akin to telling me I need to have faith. Steve Jobs gave us the iPhone because he had a profit incentive, not because he was a prophet.
You're not a pearlist, you're a theist. You turned science into your god of the gaps. Science =/= magic. Evolution requires and has evidence, RBE needs only faith and donations.
machwon 1 day ago
@machwon You my friend are a fucking idiot. We don't need cows or nitinol. You act like there is no evidence for technology transforming humanity, yet it is all around you. Its not magic. Whatever man, were all doomed lets just give up now. And actually jobs wasn't motivated by money. When he came back to apple he didn't even take a salary. He lived in a reasonably sized house. He was motivated by creativity. He liked to merge beauty and technology.
BibleBeltPearlist 20 hours ago
@BibleBeltPearlist So no beef or memory metal in an RBE? Gee, talk about bait and switch.
But yes, I'm the problem. I remember back when NASA was dreaming of going to the moon, they made movies and begged for donations for more movies and did a bunch of tours where they had Q&As and power point presentations about how we should go to the moon.
Clearly, you're more scientifically minded than me who demands work be done to make it possible. I'm a fucking idiot and you're the PEARList. Good job!
machwon 20 hours ago
@machwon I guess you can't see the difference between an idea and how it is achieved. It's the idea that is important. That is what I'm defending. I'm not defending the details of how zeitgiest and the venus project say it should happen. I'm defending going to the moon. Not which rocket fuel will get us there. But you only care about the details. Asking for me to give you the details in a comments section. You demand work be done? First, we need show people the goal.
BibleBeltPearlist 16 hours ago
@machwon I agree that the begging for donations to make a big movie is stupid. Does that mean I rule out the venus project because of one thing? No, a PEARList looks at ideas point by point. Movie = bad point. Getting off currency, taking away power from people who want to wait till the oil runs out = good point. We could have solar power if we demanded it and stopped using gasoline. Nobody will though, not enough people. If everyone used solar it would be much cheaper and get better.
BibleBeltPearlist 16 hours ago
@BibleBeltPearlist and for the record, Steve Jobs was a Randroid creep not a collectivist ideological puppet.
machwon 20 hours ago
@BibleBeltPearlist I think that every human is entitled to good food, clean water, shelter, and civil liberties. If that statement is true. Why has capitalism resulted in so many people without these basic things. That should be the first step of a society to provide these to every person. There are plenty of resources to make this happen. And if there isn't then population control should be started.
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
@machwon Future demand would be determined by future sustainability of the resources needed to make that good. We would prioritize our resources. Use them first to provide food, water, shelter, and clean air for every human. The resources left after that would be prioritized further. Next, resources for transportation and roads, then resources for probably hospitals, police, and fire. Next maybe communication and so on. Once resources aren't sustainable your done.
BibleBeltPearlist 1 day ago
NO! (stops watching as soon as sees first text graphic)
jedimaster303 3 days ago
@machwon part2
My question is: Why would the FED want the money back? Isn't the purpose of the FED to create money and make it available for the people. What sence would it make if that money goes back to the FED, where it is looked up in a vault and why would they take intrest on that money? IS the FED really working that way or is Zeitgeit just making things up?
I would be really grateful if you could enlighten me:)
sincerly an confused Austrian student
mathstef 4 days ago
@mathstef There's a great video about this FringeElements did about this and points out some of this mistakes Zeitgeist makes about Fed monetary policy. No it's not completely accurate but it's not completely false at the same time.
youtu.be / cLm3ERR_-8c
machwon 4 days ago
@machwon I just discovered Zeitgeist in the morning and I am glad that I finaly found a critical voice. I have some basic economical question, please excuse that I ask this basic things, but I am new to economics and I dont really have a clue how it works. In the Movie they say that when the Fed creates money and hand it ou to the banks it takes intrest on this money, so its impossible for all the banks to pay all the debt back as there wasnt enough money created in the first place.
mathstef 4 days ago
Your efforts are further making the world negative rather than trying to better it like The Venus Project has dedicated so much time to.
ziram102 4 days ago
@ziram102
1. Don't spam my channel with conspiracy nuttery links.
2. Venus Project isn't making anything better but Fresco's bank account.
machwon 4 days ago
'my challenge is as follows, without sound money, without private ownership of all means of productions, without exchange-it can not work. remove ONE of these components and you have recipe for disaster' thats right. which is why they ALL have to be removed silly, you dont understand TVP or science.
thecagophilist 5 days ago
@thecagophilist Again, this shit has been tried with dire and detrimental consequences. TZM/TVP are NOT new ideas.They just have fancier packaging to fool people who are clueless about histories and other political thought into cracking open their wallets.
machwon 5 days ago
assertions and evidence-less suppositions
thecagophilist 5 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The multitude of subjects, studies, philosophies etc, used to present The Zeitgeist Movement's views is opposite of hollow. If you judge a meaningful discussion that Joseph incites after only 9 minutes of a portion of only 1 interview you should reconsider life. Or keep listening to the empty suits.
1947662 6 days ago
Comment removed
1947662 6 days ago
... if we ever wana show real change in the world, if you want somthing done right, do it yourself. Its not that hard, im making plans myself to help make the world a better place, but the more people attempting the faster its gona happen! So dont diss a great idea just becuz its presented in a bad way or by questionable people. Do the analysis yourself, and make modifactions as needed, till we get a working module in the "real" world!
Mastervitro 1 week ago
@Mastervitro It's not a great idea, it's a very old idea in fancy packaging that has failed numerous times. TZM/TVP preys on people who have no education on historical attempts at these kinds of societies and saps them for donation money. It really is that simple.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon But has there been any historical attempt at a purely scientific, resource-based economy? A RBE (to me) may seem like "socialism" or "Marxism" because of those kernels of elements in the idea, but it is not. Socialism and the like still had currency, still had money. A RBE has no money- it is based ENTIRELY on science and resource-management. And without money, crime is all but eliminated, poverty disappears, and abhorrent human behavior (conditioned by the current system)...
StarvinLeeMarvin 3 days ago
@StarvinLeeMarvin (continued)... is gone too.
You can't honestly tell me that you think the current system is the best we can do, right? Do you think the current system is morally for the better of the human species?
We have to start taking care of one another, and the planet. Or we're going to kill ourselves off and everything else as well. Money is a concept- it doesnt really exist, it separates us from ourselves and one another. We need to watch out for each other!
StarvinLeeMarvin 3 days ago
@StarvinLeeMarvin Re: current system. This is just more of the same from Zeitgeister's false dichotomy because they lack the ability to understand they are not the only people out there with nuanced thought. There's only 2 proposed systems RBE or status-quo.
Even if the status-quo is bad (which I would agree it is) 'RBE' is a far worse solution to those problems.
machwon 3 days ago
@StarvinLeeMarvin "purely scientific" where people eat nutrition rich slop and sleep in small capsules in a large facility because it's "scientifically efficient" No, nor would anyone want to live in that world nor is it what TVP advocates. TVP is end communism with a fancier name and vague "solutions."
Human behavior is not via conditioning, again, this is Marxist thought in a new suit. Tabula rasa (blank slate) is pseudo-scientific nonsense. /watch?v=CuQHSKLXu2c
machwon 3 days ago
... what the venus project proposes, a free and open society with abundance. Do the very simple math, and youll know the world is many times capable of supporting the world population, and as technology progresses, that number will increase. I proposed a working transition plan to the zeitgeist movement, only to get the comment deleted by Peter himself, saying we cant force the monitary system to collapse, even though thats the inevtible conclusion he stated. We have to make our own plans...
Mastervitro 1 week ago
Although i agree that the zeitgeist movemnet is a sham, and the people behind it arent ever gona get anywere, that it may even potentialy be part of a bigger conspiracy, I do however know that a resource based economy, witch is a real world econonmy that we tecnicaly already live in, will eventualy make currecny obsolete. It is inevitable, once automation has replaced the lining factors that keep the monitary system going, only 2 things can emerge, A scientific dictatorship, or...
Mastervitro 1 week ago
Ehrm, do you also have actual arguments instead of opinions? Kinda important if you want to debunk or expose something.
dufke007 1 week ago
Easy to criticise, you seem to miss the whole point of what ZM is about. If someone simply doesn't want to learn something, they wont. As you have demonstrated here.
You really need to base your argument with some sort of evidence instead of resorting to coming up with nicknames. They're cheap attacks,
DJElev88 1 week ago
@ejpetersondub Those who ignore history are doomed and condemned to repeat it. I can and do explain myself well, Zeitgesiters are just too dim to understand things not spoon fed to them. Besides, TZM is dead anyways.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon "Those who ignore history are doomed and condemned to repeat it." Do you think of yourself as clever or poetic by saying this? I mean, what history are you even referring to? On a side note, you actually believe the system we have now is better? If you answered "yes"; How long do you think this system will be able to go on?
dufke007 1 week ago
I can't tell if you are genuinely deranged or dishonest. You didn't refute any of the arguments presented in any of the films. None. You gave no evidence to support any of your bullshit claims. Your whole monologue amounted to absolutely fuck all in terms of substance. Addendum and Moving Forward are two of the most heavily sourced films ever made... there is ALOT of data backing up the train of thought. Present reasoned evidence to back up your argument or you may as well go "blah blah blah".
InvertedFox 1 week ago
And its funny how you throw around all these claims of the movies being "false" and yet you don't provide one shred of evidence or logical insight as to how any of it is so. Your inability at even attempting to PROVE how a RBE is so bad just further supports the idea because people who are against are only so because they are indoctrinated to think so. It's no pyramid scheme either. It's circular, yet you see pyramid. You are so skewed.
ejpetersondub 1 week ago
Lol you are so full of shit. We have not tried anything like a RBE "millions of times". And of course, you like playing taxes and you believe if money didn't exist the world would explode. You are literally saying that trying to live smarter is dumb, and that we need to keep living like idiots to survive. It is only through your complete inability to comprehend change, that you disagree. Sure, babies need to die of starvation. We need wars. We need poverty!!! Long live the corrupt!!!
ejpetersondub 1 week ago
@ejpetersondub TVP/TZM is just a scam for people who are clueless about history and never looked into other political philosophies to sap them for "film donations."
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon What does history have to do with the future? I know plenty about history. The thing is times change and while we can learn from history, history shouldn't dictate the future. Again, you make baseless claims. I am a supporter, I know history, I've done extensive research on other possibilities, and I haven't given Peter a dime. Shows what you know. The only way to explain your position is the fact that you are indoctrinated. You can't explain anything you support.
ejpetersondub 1 week ago
@machwon Somehow I don't believe that you have either. Teenagers such as yourself would love to rub whatever they DO know in other peoples faces. You rub NOTHING in other people's faces (nothing of substance anyways).
dufke007 1 week ago
@dufke007 The fact that you can't understand the difference between "You have to pay taxes" and "I agree with the tax system" just shows how much of a mental midget you and @pDiceS are. So it,s been fun, have a nice day.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon Just to make a point: Can you quote me on anything that points out I can't tell the difference?
dufke007 1 week ago
@dufke007 You addressed the comment to me "He" in that case would be PdIceS since there is only 3 people in question.
But again, video is about RBE not tax protester shit.
machwon 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@machwon "You addressed the comment to me "He" in that case would be PdIceS since there is only 3 people in question." If you're saying this in response to my request in pointing out where it says I don't understand the difference between "You have to pay taxes" and "I agree with the tax system"... Good job.
dufke007 1 week ago
When you say that you agree with the tax system, you lost my attention. Nothing special to see here.
pDiceS 1 week ago
@pDiceS I said no such thing.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon He's right, he said "I do disagree that you don't have to pay taxes". Having said that; you might want to back such statements up with things called "arguments", instead of uttering smug laughter.
dufke007 1 week ago
dl.dropbox.com/u/62957253/tzm-tvpfail.txt
This is why this author, TZM, and TVP are all both simultaneously right and wrong.
EzrahK 1 week ago
wee cant live in worss times than things are now just going to get worss millions of kids comming out of school for wot?fat cats get richer and exempt from the lawand the mass of the world get worss off .how much more info does mean need to understand wee live in a fcked up system.
boabs 1 week ago
@burton2114 Part 3 has its issues too, the whole chipping and tax protester stuff is bullshit. Even so, fiat money stuff doesnt logally follow that we should do away with money period.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon No but the other 100's of arguments that the documentary makes do kind of hint at that fact. Yeah there's that weird "argument" word again.
dufke007 1 week ago
@dufke007 It doesn't matter if the foundation of TZM/TVP is fallacious. I'm striking the root here, I don't need to go swatting all the leaves. RBE fails because rational top down planning of an economy is economy is impossible especially without market prices. Not hard to believe, not hard hard to understand, not yet to be discovered; impossible. Also the Tabula Rasa/New Economic Man hypothesis is bunk like tax protester arguments. I'm all for getting rid of taxes, but you do have to pay them.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon So then I'm asking you: what the hell are we going to do?
StarvinLeeMarvin 3 days ago
Also, I agree with some of the points that you've made. Many people do not take criticism of the Venus Project well, even if it's constructive. As it is now, the idea of the VP is not well formulated enough to function in reality, the people following it are just not quite smart enough to understand that.
idontcare80 1 week ago
People are forced to use money. A person would have to go live in Siberia or Alaska and live off of the land if they wanted to get away from using money.
People are starving by the millions, wars are being waged endlessly, what is your solution?
idontcare80 1 week ago
So we can see you are a very simple minded person with how you attack these films and shows that you fail to realize something he did in his last film compared to others. If you would of payed close attention you of realized that he actually brings together lots of people who have there PHD and doctrines and very well aware of the problems that exist. You can talk all the trash you want about zeitgeist, but all you are doing is spouting off at the mouth like a kid who wants attention.
burton2114 1 week ago
I can understand why you would not like the first one when it comes to the religion and 9/11. But it did hold truth how the central bank got manipulated in and as for addendum, it simply describes how money is created with some personal insight behind it, but other wise it is all based on facts. As for his third one, He does all of those thing you talk about with the bells and soothing voice to make it interesting, to keep peoples attention.
burton2114 1 week ago
Manipulative propaganda is on CNN dude ! :) NOT in the ZeitGeist. That's all about freedom. Something you may NEVER know nothing about you sicko ! I feel mercy for you dude ! Again: GET HELP !
ThePhpcip 2 weeks ago
GOD man ! How sick are you ? I have NEVER seen this much stupidity in ANY youtube clip EVER ! Get help man !
ThePhpcip 2 weeks ago
hahahahhahahhahahaha oh man, this is great...
brandondrath 2 weeks ago
"Will the resource based economy work"
Yes! All the chemical elements are within your grasp, the only limiting factors are technical problems. Money does solve these problems. Technology will make the Venus project possible, mock me today but it will pass in time.
boringlecture 2 weeks ago
lame criticist
eywa5 2 weeks ago
Why did you even make this stupid video. You attacking something you do not understand.
Your smiling within the movie is realy stupid. You think you understanding ekonomie, why didnt you sugest what would be good plan. If you do not know then shut up , and have good life.
jiriloudal 2 weeks ago
If you really want to know what TVP is about, going to their website and Q@A sessions would be a great starting place.
Nate83657 2 weeks ago
Austrian Anarchos vs Communist Utopians is starting to grow bigger than good vs. evil, or even Coke vs. Pepsi. Lol.
norcaliblunt17 2 weeks ago
Congratulations, you're the biggest idiot yet.
4HahaTwo 5 months ago
@4HahaTwo :D
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon "Aside from one light bulb in the entire world, you have another example or is just this anomalous exception? "
Printers for example. It comes down to chips that blocks printer ( breaks it ) after certain amount of pages , up to the chips that doesn't allow you to refill cartridges ( you have to buy new one ) .
The world is so full of this crap it is amazing how people are too brainwashed to see. I only point one of the best documented cases .
shogu666 5 months ago
automation in the 1800's sucked ass.
tobiasravn 5 months ago
@tobiasravn They said the same thing in 1900. They'll say about automation today in 2100. Same about 2100 in 2200. All along the way other technologies will allow for more jobs to be made with less time and labor to make more. /watch?v=o9SDRtj8fj4
machwon 5 months ago
Author is a retard , planned obsolescence is a documented fact.
shogu666 5 months ago
@shogu666 Author is a term used for written works. This is a video, retard.
Planned obsolescence is only true in the sence that iPods are only meant to last as long as the technology in it. Would you still use an indestructible Sony Walkman from 1980? How about a portable CD player from the 90s? I still have a working iPod from 05 but it's not as good as my cell phone's music cloud technology
If companies intentionally made faulty items, they wouldn't be in business very long.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon
"Planned obsolescence is only true in the sence that iPods are only meant to last as long as the technology in it."
No. Planned obsolescence is much wider concept then just shorting life of product.
Companies make you to buy entire new product instead of upgrading it.
"If companies intentionally made faulty items, they wouldn't be in business very long."
Companies make intentionally faulty light bulbs and they are very much in business . your fantasy dont stand up to reality.
shogu666 5 months ago
@shogu666 Would be nice if you can show my a light bulb that's been able to to go on for more than 10 years that has been allowed to turn off and on as needed and not continually lit. You see, any light bulb can last for a very long time, it's when you turn it off and on that really wears it out. Then again, we are dealing with The Zeitgeist Movement. Science isn't your forte, just a nice plataude. Otherwise you wouldn't be promoting quack cancer cures and free energy scams. ;)
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Would be nice if you can show my a light bulb that's been able to to go on for more than 10 years that has been allowed to turn off and on as needed and not continually lit.
GO watch documentary called "light bulb conspiracy".
watch?v=I5DCwN28y8o
The ZM does not promote quack cancer cures nor free energy scams. Non of it is proven .
But one is certain there is no profit in free energy so it wont happen even if it is possible.
shogu666 5 months ago
@shogu666 No free energy isn't possible because it violates the first and or second rule of thermodynamics. And you do promote quack medicine, or was "Burzynski, the Movie" a figment of our collective imaginations?
I've had a printers that lasted for many years only ever upgraded for more or better features. So I guess you're full of shit or I'm good at picking out the good ones.
Again, light bulbs only go out quickly because we turn them off and on. Those light bulbs continuously stay lit.
machwon 5 months ago
@shogu666 Companies don't make you do anything unless they work with the government to force you to buy a product or service. I still have my old iPod. It still works fine except the back light cuts out at times. I CHOOSE not to use it because I CHOSE to use my Android phone with Google Music instead. I CHOOSE to recycle my older phone because I CHOSE to upgrade it. I can still use the phone I had 4 years ago, but I prefer to have smart phone capabilities. T-Mobile never put a gun to my head.
machwon 5 months ago
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@machwon "Companies don't make you do anything unless they work with the government to force you to buy a product or service."
It is like that in theory but figure it out.
You need a light , you go to the shopyou where there are only available light bulbs with limited lifetime.
Do you buy a light bulb or do go back to home offended and work with candles ?? Get real.
The Way you emphasize a word CHOICE suggest you are one of those anarcho-capitalists crap.
shogu666 5 months ago
@shogu666 Even still, you can upgrade your computer all you want. Nothing is stopping you except for hardware limitations that would still exist in your utopian wet dream. I can go out tomorrow and double my possessing speed with a new possessor or my 3D video capabilities with a new video card. Or I can buy the same video card and SLI it. :D
machwon 5 months ago
If you're only way to debate a topic is to tell people to read a 50 page document, it shows weakness on your part in your ability to convey ideas yourself. This also seems to be the case here. You make claims, but I never see any actual arguments based on evidence. The bit about the USSR is irrelevant. Russian communism and a resource-based economy are different methods, executed very differently. Then again, it doesn't seem you're interested in understanding.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB That's because it's hard to find anyone in TZM with an IQ more than their shoe size and couldn't understand the argument, let alone address it. Then again, it's not much different than TZM wanting people to watch a movie that takes roughly the same amount of time to watch. I'm sorry if reading scares you, but life's a bitch. 'Communism' and 'socialism' are just labels and they share 3 key attributes that RBE has which makes it 'impossible,' as detailed by that article.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon I recognize the fallibility of passing on propaganda without understanding the ideas behind it to back it up, which is why I don't do that. Based on that post you displayed in your video at 7:22, it seems to me like you're the one being unreasonable. You're obviously not shy of using "derogatory generalizations" as he pointed out, given your slur about TZM's IQs. I'm sorry if understanding ideas well enough to convey them in your own words scares you but, as you said, life's a bitch.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@machwon As it so happens, socialism has some major differences from an RBE. Since you have no interest in trying to understand it yourself, I will gladly point it out to you. Socialist systems like the communism of the USSR allocated resources to the people through the standards put forth by the political leaders. An RBE allocates resources based on what resources are available and what can be done with those resources. They are then made publicly available to the people on an AS-NEEDED basis.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB Kind of like why I oppose Scientology because I don't understand it, right?
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon I never said you didn't understand Scientology. I'm sure you do. That's why you use it as an example of religious fanaticism, of which it is. However, the comparison is irrelevant for two reasons. For one, even though you may understand Scientology, you do not understand an RBE as you compare it to economic models of the past, of which it is not.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB I'm comparing your logic. Because I don't agree with RBE, I must not understand it. I've seen both Zeitgeist films, I've seen 2 Fresco docus, I've heard the entire Stefan debate with VTV, TWICE, I had Zeigeister friends (who all stopped drinkin' that kool-aid) and I've put up with 2 of your most vile and idiotic YouTube unoffical spokespeople. How much more shit should I ingest before I "get it"?
I guess just watching 1 film is enough so long as I agree right?
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Yeah you're not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying you have no room to either agree or disagree with the RBE because you don't understand it. Really, you don't. You keep comparing the RBE to socialism, which is a false comparison because they are two very different things. I will give that lecture a chance, but it's probably not relevant because AGAIN, socialism and the RBE are not the same thing.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@machwon I, too, have seen the Zeitgeist movies, heard Fresco talk several times, am somewhat familiar with the Stefan/VTV debate, and I'm not drawing nearly the same conclusions you are. I can only judge your understanding based on your presentation which, I have to say, is extremely lacking. You only back up what your saying by telling people to "read this, watch that." Sorry, but if you can't convey the ideas in that media you want me to watch in your own words, why should I listen to you?
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
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@machwon I, too, have seen the Zeitgeist movies, heard Fresco talk several times, am somewhat familiar with the Stefan/VTV debate, and I'm not drawing nearly the same conclusions you are. I can only judge your understanding based on your presentation which, I have to say, is extremely lacking. You only back up what your saying by telling people to "read this, watch that." Sorry, but if you can't convey the ideas in that media you want me to watch in your own words, why should I listen to you?
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@machwon Now, if you could actually present your case in meaningful dialogue instead of copy-paste. ad hominem attack, and derogatory labels, then you might be taken more seriously. Oh, and having two friends who stopped "drinking the kool-aid" means nothing. You're just using that to reaffirm your own position, when in reality they might not be any less ignorant than you. Come back when you have a cogent argument that you can present YOURSELF without mooching off of other intellectuals.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB For a Zeitard to accuse anyone of "mooching off of other intellectuals" makes me LOL.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon I'm still waiting for you to make a cogent argument. Do you have one or not?
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB I've already explained: No money, no exchange, no private property = inability to determine what to produce. If you don't know what to make, you've have a surplus of things people don't want and rationing of things people do want. The price system serves an important role, despise what some old economic illiterate in a swap or some new age marimba banging conspiracy theorist says.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon And you say you understand, when I've already rebutted that. AGAIN, resource-based economics produces goods based on an AS-NEEDED basis. In other words, based on WHAT PEOPLE WANT. It's not hard to figure out what people want. So, where is the problem, and WHY do you need a fail market crapitalist system to figure out what people want? Really, you don't.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB So you create the machines as needed? Machines don't just make whatever you want them to make. Machines take time to plan, design, and build. Those machines need to go into factories and require specialized and skilled labor to maintain and operate. You're going to do this all because 1 person wants 1 kind of device no one else will want? That's where market efficiency is needed. It's not fail, you just are economically illiterate.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Why is that a problem? Why can't that be accomplished in the infrastructure of a RBE? Once again, you make a claim without making a cogent argument. That's not good enough. Explain WHY.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB I already did! Just because you don't understand elementary economics doesn't make my argument incoherent. I'm not going into a detailed explanation about the price mechanisms and economic calculation on a YouTube comment. I've explained why an RBE won't work in the blog post and gave additional resources. If you don't to read it, then go be ignorant somewhere else.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon I read your blog post and already found a flaw. You further demonstrate your ignorance by stating a RBE lacks a method for gauging the impact of products. That simply isn't true. Just because there's no money involved, that doesn't mean resources aren't gauged. Using your iPhone example, Capitalism sees an iPhone as $400. A RBE sees an iPhone as X grams of aluminum, glass, silicon, etcetera and leaves it at that. If you ask me, the latter makes a lot more sense.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB So supply and demand has no impact on prices?
machwon 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB This what I mean, People from TZM/TVP have 0 understanding of economics. They think prices are just set arbitrarily. Prices are set by supply and demand. That's why gold is worth more per ounce than rice. Rice is far more abundant than gold so it curbs demand and prices fall. Gold is the opposite. Capitalism doesn't say anything costs anything. It's millions of actors working together to produce and consume that decides what labor you need to provide to society to receive goods.
machwon 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB Now if you make a good no one wants, the price for it plumits and you occur losses. Because of this price, you can see this right away and takes steps to correct it before you run out of resources to access to create even more waste. Even if you make EVERYTHING abundant (i.e. Garden of Eden economics) you are still faced with the scarcity of time. Every moment you spend on R&D, production methods, design on (x) is time you could of been using on (y) which is more valuable.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon I just told you how resources and products are gauged in a RBE. Everything is MEASURED according to HOW MUCH RESOURCES IT CONSUMES. I will speak in "price" terms for you since that's the only standard you seem to understand. In a RBE, an iPhone, the "price" of it is the materials that make it up. In other words, X amount of aluminum, glass, silicon, etcetera.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB I just told you how resources and products are gauged in a RBE. Everything is MEASURED according to HOW MUCH RESOURCES IT CONSUMES."
Resources are not homogeneous. You can't add apples and oranges. A unit of steel has different priorities on people's value scales than does that same unit in rice, or wheat, or silver...etc. How, without money, can you gauge heterogeneous goods into something homogeneous to make calculations?
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Another important thing to understand is that in a RBE, all resources are "declared the common heritage of all people," as Jacque puts it. As such, there is no need to set prices on items if it's all publicly available. The only limit or "price," in your terms, are the amount of resources that are available to meet demand. So YES, supply and demand do have impact. "Supply" is the resources you have and "demand" is what dictates how those resources are to be utilized.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB "Supply" is the resources you have and "demand" is what dictates how those resources are to be utilized." Now we're back to iPhone or cheeseburger problem again.
Please, you are not understanding the argument. I tried giving you the simple version and you're too simple to understand it. Watch at least one of the videos or kick rocks. No tickey, no washy.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I right in that your problem is that the RBE does not create a value baseline for the two items? If I'm correct, then quite frankly, the iPhone/cheeseburger problem is the most asinine argument I've ever heard. Subtracting a cheeseburger from an iPhone makes about as much mathematical sense as dividing by zero. It just doesn't work on a fundamental level. If anything, that function is a FLAW of capitalism, not a strength.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB "Correct me if I'm wrong, but am I right in that your problem is that the RBE does not create a value baseline for the two items?"
Wrong, watch the video or read the article. Last warning.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon What I meant by "value baseline" is having a method to define the value of completely different items (iPhone/cheeseburger) with the same unit (a currency). It seems to be that that is what you're saying is wrong with the RBE, is that it lacks a universal unit of value. If I'm still wrong, I won't comment again until I watch the lecture.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@machwon You need to clarify something as well. You said "Every moment you spend on R&D, production methods, design on (x) is time you could of been using on (y) which is more valuable." Okay, what is (y)? Assuming (y) is actually making the goods and getting them out there, then I don't see the problem. Obviously, if spending to much time on (x) is inefficient, then what makes you think a RBE would do that? It wouldn't. You're making up irrelevant problems man.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB And now that we have abundant access to (x) which people desire/need less than (y) which people did need/desire you have squandered that precious time and society is worse off. However, you wouldn't have a system in place telling you you are making a wrong decision until it is too late.
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Secondly, either way, that comparison between Scientology and RBE advocates is irrelevant because they're not the same thing. That's the problem with analogies. They only work up to a certain point. Think of it this way. You've got two sandwiches. One has meat on it and the other has shit on it. Taking a bite out of one is not the same action as taking a bite out of the other, even though you appear to be doing the same thing.
Nathan173AB 5 months ago
@Nathan173AB Secondly, YOU are not understanding the position. Which is why I want people to read those articles before I debated them. It's not about red scares or totalism, it was about the 'impossibility' of a system without exchange, private property (including in producer's goods) and money. If Fresco was around in those days, it too would of been included in the article. /watch?v=alqUqdbfxhk (edit: I linked to an older version of the same talk)
machwon 5 months ago
it must be terrible how you've posted a video displaying your impressive knowledge of economics and nobody appreciates.... 'dislike' bar looks like a light saber!
mikecovich1 5 months ago
@mikecovich1 That's because no one gives a shit about a small group of mobilized fringe cranks.
machwon 5 months ago
@mikecovich1 If economics could be decided by a popularity contest than why do have so many poor people?
justintempler 5 months ago
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MrMethadrine 5 months ago
@MrMethadrine And you need to stop being doing drugs and being a Zeitard.
machwon 5 months ago
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@machwon im not a zeitard u reitard.
MrMethadrine 5 months ago
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MrMethadrine 5 months ago
(1of2) Of course the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project are not the panacea to all of our problems; but they try to wake people up and to start making us to understand how the world works; including the bad things we should change some how, and the good things that can be done.
Peshet 5 months ago
(2/2) I really appreciate you, machwon, for posting this video, because people shouldn't believe and have faith in all they are told; however, I think these groups are a good thing for keeping society evolutioning. It's just a seed; it's up to each one to read, investigate, reason, question everything and looking for solutions.
Peshet 5 months ago
@Peshet I agree with a lot of the problems TZM points out, but I don't agree with the solutions and conspiracy theories they promote. Thanks for the positive comment. :D
machwon 5 months ago
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MrsKevinsmith 5 months ago
@MrsKevinsmith Wait, I thought it was the critics of the Zeitgeist Movement who were the ones who used ad-homs. o_O
machwon 5 months ago
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MrsKevinsmith 5 months ago
@MrsKevinsmith Perhaps you could use some sentence structure and punctuation?
machwon 5 months ago
@machwon Perhaps next time you look into the mirror you will see yourself as others do, simply a dirty asshole. Such a whiney and demanding bitch aren't you? :-)>
MrsKevinsmith 5 months ago
P.S. Drop the generic anti psychotic medications because the side affects are horrific.
MrsKevinsmith 5 months ago
@MrsKevinsmith No wonder you're batshit. Take your meds, cunt.
machwon 5 months ago
Money decides who should get it, how about everyone have it?
ManlySlut 7 months ago
@ManlySlut lack of capital goods.
machwon 7 months ago
0:10
machwon, I am not a predator.
ManlySlut 7 months ago
@ManlySlut ok, whatever that means.
machwon 7 months ago
I think I get it. The best solution to any problem is to say its not possible. Huh? Aren't you helping us by pointing out flaws? Go majority....fuck the haters.
mrbigtruth34 8 months ago
@mrbigtruth34 If there's a hole in the dam and it's only getting bigger and someone says "I know, we should just start drinking it as it comes out" and I say "No, that's a bad solution" doesn't mean I don't see a problem. There's a problem, but the medicine you provide is a dangerous placebo. How about we repair the damn, and get rid of the fucktards called 'The State" who keeps putting holes in it.
machwon 8 months ago
@machwon You sir are not getting the point. If economics was viable how come it hasn't solved anything! We have post industrial means of production while utilizing an industrial economic system? I am not saying I agree with the Venus or Zeitgiest movements/projects. All I can say is figure it out for yourself and don't worry yourself about the so-called world. As a biological organism we are doomed for extinction and death anyway regardless of what we do or do not do.
Josephjoel3 8 months ago
@Josephjoel3 I'm not a Keynesian.
machwon 8 months ago
Ad hominem, ad hominem, appeal to emotion... I'm not convinced about zeitgeist, but this is crap.
anthonyed2002 8 months ago
@anthonyed2002 If you're going to hold me to any kind of standard, you should first adhere to it yourself. Cry logical fallicy if you want, you'd be wrong, but don't in the next breath use a logical fallacy.
This is why I'm calling you an idiot. It's not an ad-hom, it's an argument with hard evidence backing it up. Idiot.
machwon 8 months ago
@machwon "It became apparent that I wasn't watching a documentary. I was watching a manipulative propaganda film." Because they used striking imagery... in a video... to make a point?
"Merola is the attack dog" Because he's a forum moderator?
Too extreme for my taste. That's one man's opinion. Also, not sure what the logical fallacy is in "this is crap"... also just one man's opinion, which also seems to be what this whole ten-minutes-of-my-life-I'll-never-get-back video is. Brighten up, DFTT
anthonyed2002 8 months ago
@anthonyed2002 "Because they used striking imagery... in a video... to make a point?" Yes, that movie was a giant appeal to emotions.
"Because he's a forum moderator?" Don't play stupid. You know damn well that's one of the most oppressive forums on the internet. That's why so many posts are prefaced with "I might get banned for this but..."
Now see how I made a rebuttal and not just calling your comment crap. It's a baseless assertion. This is why I call you an idiot again, idiot.
machwon 8 months ago
@machwon U mad bro?
I'm not saying THEY didn't use any dirty tricks. As far as I can gather, they're nothing but. I don't think that automatically classifies it as propaganda though... unless this video is too. As for my comment, I stand by it. It also occurs to me that they can mod their own forum however they please. I don't get what you intend to accomplish by calling me an idiot, but to each his own. I doubt you're really as much of a jerk as I might think you are from two paragraphs, but..
anthonyed2002 8 months ago
"The violent imagery was a play on my emotions"
I sure hope so, because the violence is caused by the monatery system. I think we all support this system so we should all be aware of what it does.
Aperunkh 8 months ago