Sometimes the comments to these videos say more about the state of racism and justice in the US today than the video ever could . . . At least it's nice to see how many people know their facts and defend them.
As far as the video goes, good music choice and a nice selection of pictures. I also like the way you sped up the editing as the music picked up.
Sorry, not that I don't like the Freedom of Speech and everything, but I had to delete Bringtherain888's comment because it was hateful, and vulgar, and the user offered no explanation for their comment.
Ah, Youtube is apparently not letting me post comments on my video anymore. So I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope that this one makes it through. Madiee, the song is actually by the Dutch group "Within Temptation", not Melinda Spencer (that's me, the video creator). I'll add their website to the info for this video.
@vgybygv Actually, I have that song, too! I have a much higher respect for Fort Minor after he did that song. It's a seldom touched-on subject for schools, let alone songs!
In a show of good faith, I'd also like to point out that am220's statistic about the 20k who requested repatriation is correct. I was under the impression that it was wrong because that number is rarely cited. Most requested it after the disastrous loyalty questionaires: in response to false rumors, coercion, or as their only means of expressing their anger.
Less than 10k followed through on repatriating, and the rest of the applications were found invalid by the courts due to coercion.
If anyone is interested in reading up on this (or knowing my sources), by far the best free resource is the CWRIC series of papers "Personal Justice Denied" and the hundreds of sources cited therein. The JACL website is also a good starting point.
I've also relied heavily on the blogs, books, and papers of David Neiwert, Greg Robinson, Eric Muller, James McNaughton (Command historian of the US Army), Michi Weglyn, Roger Daniels, John Herzig (retired intelligence officer), and many others.
Sadly, I've had to block am220uss from this video. His posts degenerated from creating an intelligent debate against his ignorant views, into straight hate speech and racism. He will probably be back with a new account, at least until the Help Center manages to track down his IP address and block him entirely from the website.
Note that it's not really that he's uninformed, just that he's been informed by incorrect sources. Or rather, a singular incorrect source and its very few supporters.
Thank you! You've been exceedingly patient through the whole thing. Personally, I would have blocked him long before he wound up resorting to claiming that the civil rights of a "few thousand crybaby Japanese" are somehow negligible. But at least now no one can claim that you blocked him solely for disagreeing with you.
he heard how the Japanese living in the American territory of the Philippines helped the japanese army when they invaded a few days after Pearl Harbor?
You might be having the same problem as me. I find that if you post too much in a small period of time, the comments will temporarily shut down. I dunno if it's because the system overloads or if it's an anti-spam measure. If you just wait a few minutes, it usually comes back up. I also recommend refreshing the page between each post. That way, if the comments are disabled, it won't let you even try, and you don't waste your time typing something out that won't be accepted.
43. I'd also like to make clear that I'm not saying that SOME kind of defensive measure wouldn't have been called for. You seem to think very much in black and white terms. First of all, I've admitted that some kind of measure against the Japanese NATIONALS may have been called for, though it still would have been kind of a moral grey zone.
44. Secondly, there were a lot of reasonable measures that were presented before the internment. For instance, McCloy called for military exclusion zones only near airports, military bases, manufacturing plants, etc. Those zones would have been reasonably sized, and exclude everyone (regardless of race or citizenship). Then people could apply for permits to be in the areas on a need-only basis. Evacuating the entire west coast was an extreme and prejudiced measure, not to mention a costly one.
50. My original position has not changed. I've always held that the internment was prejudiced and entirely unjustifiable. No one so far before in this thread has said "the internment was wrong, but something more reasonable was definitely called for." If they had, I would have agreed. And if you'll notice, in #43, I'm not saying the Japanese nationals should have been necessarily interned either. Just that some kind of measure, that applied to Italians and Germans too, might have been called for
51. I've never actively ignored the suffering of those outside the Japanese. You seem to think that because, in this thread, I'm focusing on one example of human suffering, that I don't sympathize with any other suffering. That's ridiculous. I'm choosing, in this discussion, to focus my attention on the massive injustice done to one group of people. The very minor threat presented by those interned is outweighed by the lasting, horrifying effect of the internment.
If this is a massive suffering and injustice what was the draft ? Shouldn't you address the worst first. For almost all japanese the whole thing was just a inconvience with some financial loss for a few. Do you think were going to have a world war and
everybody is going to skip along as usual. You are so naive.
56. The thing about the draft is that most people today know about it. It was tragic, and its repeated use keeps young men in turbulent times constantly afraid. But very few people know even the tiniest thing about the Japanese internment. THAT'S why I choose to focus on it.
42. By the way, am220, your repeated need to lump Americans of Japanese descent together with Japanese nationals is pretty damn clear evidence of your racism. How can you not see that?
Your views have repeatedly hammered in the idea that anyone of Japanese descent was guilty until proven innocent. That they were inherently dangerous. THAT'S THE ESSENCE OF DISCRIMINATION.
You've used the actions of a few to judge the whole. THAT'S PREJUDICE.
45. You're lumping everyone into one group, because you're using flawed logic to condemn a whole population of people. You've come up with numbers and suspicions that apply to some, but not all. There were a huge amount of adult American citizens (not of dual citizenship) who were interned for no reason. You've used logic that applies to others to assume that they were all a threat.
52. Wait, let me get this straight... you're trying to say that prejudice and discrimination are okay because it was accepted back then? Just because discrimination and racism was legal doesn't mean we should condone and justify actions based on it.
You'll recall that slavery used to be legal, too, once upon a time. That doesn't mean we should look back and say "that's okay, it was legal back then."
This was war . Laws are different today but I am not going to condem our leaders for doing what had to be done to protect our servicemen especially since i was one of them. 16million were in uniform about 11 million (all adults) were drafted and did not want to be there and you worry only about the civil rightsof a few thousand Japanese cry babies. Those drafted often suffered horribly
and hundreds of thousands died. It was necessary and had to be done.
55. "Cry babies"? You claim to have read extensively on the subject, yet your ignorance on the internment camps is astounding. People were not "inconvenienced" or have "some financial loss." The vast majority of people interned lost everything they had. They lost their farms, their businesses, their homes, and most of their possessions. Not to mention their loss of family cohesion, sense of security, and trust in their country.
@Nicole7871 They were deprived of their human dignity. No innocent human being deserves to be treated this way!, especiclly children. These were American citizens that were betrayed by their American govenrment. What an embaressment. What a shame. What a SIN!
So you have been to japan for 3 years and you know all about the internment
and relocation. Why don't you tell us about it? While you were there did you get a copy of Eizo Hori's book " records of a intelligence war staff officer at imperial general headquarters " Hori states that
japanese americans helped gather espionage before Pearl Harbor and
33. I'm also gonna go ahead and reiterate that your claim (here or on other videos) that children were only interned in order to keep them with their families is an outright lie.
How do you explain the almost 100 orphans (as young as SIX MONTHS) who were interned? There are even reports that a handful of those orphans were taken from their adoptive white parents in order to be interned.
I suppose babies might have brought about thousands of deaths, right?
36. Would you mind clarifying this? Those orphans were American citizens, not enemy aliens. There was absolutely no reason to take them from orphanages and foster homes and put them in a desolate, barbed-wire enclosed camp.
If we had left one japanese free and he or she was attacked and beaten what do you think would have happened to the many thousands of Americans being held by japan. If word had gotten to japan tthey would have used this as an excuse
to do far worse to Americans. I am sure
you are aware of the rape of Nanking and the brutal treatment of those held by Japan. Chinese and filippinos living here violently attacked the japanese americans for what they did in their
46. You're joking, right? This is coming dangerously close to claiming that the internment was for their own good, which is a laughable concept.
The Japanese had been discriminated against and publicly slandered for years. Violence against the Japanese was widespread before the internment, especially after pearl harbor.
If anything, rounding up all Japanese as though they were criminals and putting them in desolate, guarded camps actually was a WORSE plan for appeasing Japan.
25. I am so glad you brought up dual citizenship. It's what legitimate internment historians call a "red herring" in discussions like this.
"Dual citizenship" is a term that is often misused and misunderstood. Under US law dual citizenship is largely ignored. All it means is that you have the right to claim citizenship to more than one nation. Anyone who was born in a foreign country, has one foreign parent, or marries a foreign person technically has dual citizenship.
27. (damnit, reused #25) Most people who are dual citizens actually do not know that they are such. The majority of JA who were interned were surprised to find out, and actively went through the process of renouncing their claim to Japanese citizenship just before the internment.
Historically, the US has always treated dual citizens as though they were solely citizens of the country they have spent the majority of their lives in.
34. If you need better numbers on the whole dual citizenship thing: Most, if not all, of the 70k citizens had dual citizenship at some point, since most of them were only second generation and had foreign parents. If 20k were dual citizens inside the camps, that means that 50k actively went through the formal process of renouncing their claim to Japan before the war. Those who didn't do so were mostly kids whose parents were nervous about being separated because of their citizenship status.
31. I've answered your claims about the Phillipines. "Am220, I also fail to see how the actions of people in another country (who have nothing in common with those in the US other than their race) should influence our opinion of 70k americans." There were no American citizens involved in the incidents in the Phillipines, which makes them irrelevant to this discussion.
. a answer. Here is a clear example of how a j apanese population living in a American territiory behaved when given the opportunity to assist a invading Japanese Army It was only 2 months
37. You seem to be under the common revisionist mistake of thinking that Japanese nationals are the same as American citizens. I've said it many many times. They're not the same. Even if you, in your infinite ignorance, think they are essentially the same, the government had a duty to afford them the same rights as any other american. The right to not be discriminated against because of something outside their individual actions.
Most japanese men belonged to one or more secret societies. Such as the deep ocean society that was sworn to support Japan and the emperor. The supported
18. (I hesitate to post on this topic before you've responded to my other comments, am220, but I'm posting against my better judgment. I hope you don't use these comments as an excuse to brush over my past ones, like you have before):
19. Back to the idea that it was a response to invasion, and that Germany did not pose as big a threat, I'd like to state that that's a false premise. I'll address the "threat of invasion" thing in more detail in a minute. As for Germany not being as big a threat, why then did the Allies have a "germany first" strategy, even following Pearl Harbor?
20. Also, as Gen. Biddle stated in his memoirs, the threat off the west coast was nothing (about a dozen ships by 1942 sunk) compared to the horrendous loss the Allies were sustaining in the Atlantic from German attacks (several HUNDRED sunk by 1942).
21. As for the "threat of invasion" premise, this is also a false one. Here's a quote from the Canadian prime minister's records, regarding a conversation he had with FDR in June of 1942: "It was clear that he, himself, did not contemplate much in the way of an attack on our Pacific Coast."
22. And more: During the Eisenhower administration, long before there was any active pressure from the Japanese American community (which is your reason for discounting the 1980's apology), the majority of those involved in calling for the internment called the policy a mistake and supported reparations.
23. A sample of those involved: Atty. Gen. Clark, Mayor Bowron, Earl Warren, Stimson, and McCloy. Mcloy told congress that reimbursement "is only an appropriate form of recognition for the loyalty which Japanese Americans as a whole evidenced to the country during the war."
24. And even more: Recently a memo from McCloy has come to light, on which there is a hand-written postcript saying: "These people are not 'internees': They are under no suspicion for the most part and were removed largely because we felt we could not control our own white citizens in California."
25. It's also important to note that the battle of Midway occurred in early June of 1942. After that, though those in charge had no way of knowing how important that victory would ultimately be, they were well aware that their victory had effectively put them on equal footing with Japan's navy, forcing what was left of the Japanese ships into a defensive rather than attack role.
Most of the permanent internment facilities were built and filled between June and November of that year.
41. Your repeated insistance on the Geneva conventions are false false false, as I've pointed out. They do not apply to the orphans we are discussing, or any other American citizens, because they were neither prisoners of war nor civilians in the hands of the enemy and under military occupation by a foreign power.
Besides, those orphans were perfectly fine where they were. The camps were very much a step down in living conditions for most.
40. Re: your comment about hindsight. Read comment #25 again. Go ahead. I wasn't talking about hindsight. Read it reeeeeally carefully. You'll notice that I'm talking about how those in charge were well aware, BEFORE the permanent camps were filled, that Japan no longer had the capability to launch any kind of significant attack on the West coast.
The losses incurred on the East coast were from submarines ( u-boats) . U boats cannot support a invasion it takes
aircraft carriers and troop ships. The germans had none I cannot teach you about Navies ships and naval operations
Your statments show you know nothing about it . There was no possibility of invasion on our east coast and that is all there is to say about it. If you continue to push this point you will only show your ignorance.
39. Again with the insults! Bravo, you're really outdoing yourself lately. So, in response to my mountains of quotes and evidence and testimony that there was no actual threat of invasion from Japan, your choice is to resort to calling me ignorant and then saying that there was no threat of invasion from Germany. My comments about the German u-boats were regarding your claim that Japan was a bigger threat in general. I wasn't talking about invasion in my comments regarding the East coast.
And these same people probably said there was no threat to Pearl Harbor. We were in total war on two fronts nothing was left to chance. We built a highway to Alaska that cost millions just in case they landed there. I was talking about invasion why else talk about the east coast, with your repeated shouts that there was no mass internment of germans on the east coast . Relocation was a response to the threat of invasion.
47. I'm not saying there wasn't a threat; that would be ridiculous. But threat and invasion are different. Threat implies the ability to launch some kind of attack, perhaps air raids. Invasion implies a huge-scale attack, including ground troops. Military leaders were wary of threats, but viewed invasion as largely impossible. With that in mind, there was actually equal threat on both coasts. Which is why the Germans and Italians are relevant to this discussion.
There was no threat on the east coast and you know it. japanese submarines shelled the oil refineries south of LA with their deck guns and launched aircraft and bombed the U.S.. They japanese Navy crossed large bodies of water and invaded many countries sucessfully. Germany could not even invade England and you can see across the channel on a clear day. Also there were two very powerful navies in the Alantic (Brits and U.S.) where in the pacific our navy was at the bottom of pearl harbor.
5. Am220, since you're not responding fast enough for my taste, and I'm exceedingly bored, I'm going to take the time to respond to some more comments I have seen you make on other videos. I can't find the specific comments in order to quote them, but on one video you asserted that (paraphrased): the internment was necessary because even one instance of espionage/sabotage/treason had the potential to kill thousands and/or seriously hamper the US war effort.
6. This is an extremely slippery slope to go down, and I'm frankly suprised you're resorting to it. The logic of this statement actually destroys any argument that the internment wasn't inherently racist (or unethically discriminatory, if you choose to believe that "Japanese" is not a race). If we went around incarcerating whole groups of people because they MIGHT do something bad, based on the actions of a handful, we'd wind up incarcerating EVERYONE.
7. For example, using your logic, I could posit that we imprison all people of Korean descent because the VT shooter was one. I could say that since Tim McVeigh, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and many others were white, that we should imprison ALL white people because there's a chance that they might be dangerous. Or instead of "white" I could say "men." Or instead of "men" I could say "people between the ages of __ and __." You see where I'm going with this?
8. Not to mention the fact that we had FAR more definitive evidence of treason/sabotage/espionage from German-Americans than Japanese-Americans. Yet there was no en masse incarceration of German-Americans on the East coast.
There was no threat of invasion on the East coast as the Germans did not have
a navy left in 1942 . The en masse incarceration as you call it or relocation as i call it was a response to the threat of invasion on our west coast
More absurd logic. We were at war with japan ,almost all the adults were enemy aliens, their children and dependants. All countries at war did the same including
England , Canada ,Mexico, and Japan,
I will no longer respond to your absurd comparisons . Please stick to Japan
10. Ah, resorting to insults again. Good job. My logic is not absurd, as being at war should not give a government the right to do something outrageously discriminatory and unethical to their own people.
Just because other countries did it doesn't mean we should have.
I'd also like you to provide numbers and their sources. You keep claiming things, and since I've called you on at least 2 numerical mistakes, so I call all of your facts into question from now on.
11. You keep saying that "almost all" those interned were either enemy aliens or children. Now, lets ignore for a second that interning even a single American citizen for no reason is unethical to the extreme. But any statistics I can find say that 110k to 120k people of Japanese ancestry were interned and about 70k were Americans. 40k to 60k were under 18. Even using generous numbers, and assuming that all of those minors were born in the US, that leaves at least 10k adult American citizens.
12. After doing a bit more sifting through online government documents, I found a nice summary by the WRA. I can't yet find a specific number on how many American citizens were adults, but I found one which says "the population includes about 19,000 citizen men between the ages of 18 and 37." Since most of the citizens interned were under 40, we'll assume that's a more or less accurate number of half the adult citizen population in the camps.
13. In summary, approximately 38k of those interned were adult American citizens.
You may argue that some were dependents, and you'd probably be right. But you'd have to come up with some kind of solid proof if you want to say that ALL 38,000 were.
How about dual citizenship.. I have seen estimates of 20000 for this number. Also this does not include the 16000 held by the Justice dept. The WRA was seperate.
The 110 thousand number used includes both I believe.
16000 interned by justice dept. There is some overlap so it is almost impossible to get accurate numbers
but they are certainly enough to make the and relocation necessary . The standard treatment that all receive in peace would have over whelmed our system and we could not afford to wait till after the fact as one could have killed .thousands.
28. I've already addressed your statements regarding people repatriating. Since most of those numbers come from after the internment, they cannot be entered into consideration for a discussion like this. Many of them chose to repatriate out of anger at the US for interning them, not a desire to fight for Japan. Since it's impossible to know what was the motivating factor for all of those people, it's unfair to assume that their repatriation indicates that they may have been a danger.
What I am saying is that those people who repatriated after the internment began can't be taken into account. Most claimed to repatriate because they wanted to get out of the US, where they were being punished for no reason. There's no saying what they would have done if the internment hadn't taken place. They might have been entirely patriotic.
As they say, kick a dog enough and they'll eventually bite you (not that I'm calling JA dogs).
32. As to your claim that standard treatment would have overwhelmed our system, I completely agree. Unfortunately for you, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm arguing that the American citizens, who were interned for no reason other than their ancestry, should not have been interned in the first place. They were targeted for being members of an ethnic group, not for anything they had done personally.
International law applies here, they did not have to be convicted of anything to be relocated or have done anything. We were not going to wait till after the fact when thousands are dead before relocating somebody. The children have no rights when their parents were taken they had to go. Even in times of peace a child does not get to do whatever it likes
if the parents are taken away for being illeagal aliens.
38. As I mentioned in comment #34, the vast majority of children who were registered were done so because their parents had been denied the ability to nationalize. Out of fear of being separated from their children, those parents made sure they had legitimate citizenship in both countries.
48. This number is actually wrong. According to memos from McCloy and Marshall, as well as a number of more contemporary estimates, somewhere between 9 and 10k of the entire JA population was kibei. That's a seventh of the population, not a third.
52. In response to your numbers, I'd like to point out a few more of your mistakes. First, according to the CWRIC, 3121 people were interned by the Justice Department, not 16k. Second, though there are no solid numbers that I can find saying how many REQUESTED to be sent to Japan, only 4724 were actually sent (presumably all Issei). The second one is not necessarily a mistake on your part, but since I've caught you in mistakes before, I'd like you to provide your source.
53. Turns out your number for those who requested re/expatriation is off, too. According to CWRIC and statistics from the 1943 internment segregation, about 7,000 had requested re/expatriation, not 20,000. I'm assuming this number doesn't include or overlaps the 4724 who were sent to Japan, which I quoted earlier (#52). So, even adding those numbers together doesn't come anywhere near 20 thousand.
54. I've provided sources (as well as reasons why repatriation can't be taken into account.) Your numbers mean nothing unless you can tell me where you're getting them.
The Justice Dept. interned only those suspected of being disloyal that may be where your 3121 number comes from.
In a humane gesture they allow the family to accompany the head of houshold to the internment camps but they could not leave once they entered. The total was about 16000. You have never caught me in a mistake I have had to clarify things for you but that is because you know so little.
As for insults I have never used a word that could not be used in polite company.
On the other hand, you have used horrible language and referred to me directly as this foul thing or that. It looks like you have finally began to examine
your logic and can now begin to see
why i call it absurd. I hope you will grow up and examine your posts and not let your passion rule your thinking.
29. I have never claimed higher moral ground regarding insults. YOU, however, got up on your high horse, so I'm gleefully taking every opportunity to point out your insults to me in order to highlight your hypocrisy.
Using words like "absurd" when "illogical" would have sufficed are very much an insult. And now telling me I should grow up? Why, because I chose to call you out on your constant need to talk down to me in a sad effort to invalidate my arguments?
30. Also, if you go back and actually READ my comments where I examine your logic, I actually explain why my comparisons are NOT "absurd." My further examination was NOT some kind of an admission of any kind of mistake on my part, as you seem to think. See comments 16 and 17.
14. After giving it some more thought, I think I have a better idea of why you find my comparisons to be absurd. Allow me to spell it out for my own clarification, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
You feel that my comparisons are not apt because we're talking about people from a foreign country (Japan) that we were at war with, while my comparisons were about American citizens, and not during a time of war.
15. Further, you feel that since my comparisons were not during a time of war, those people did not reasonably present a threat until they did what they did.
16. In response to this, I say that we AREN'T talking about people from a foreign country that we were at war with. As I've conceded before, (see comment #10 - oops, just realized I used that number twice. I mean the first #10), we're talking about American citizens.
17. We're talking about American citizens who happen to be of Japanese descent. That's the essence of our argument, it would seem. You seem to believe that a person's ancestry in and of itself poses a threat. I disagree, and further claim that this thinking is racist (or unethically discriminatory and prejudiced, if you refuse to see "Japanese" as a race).
3. And anyone who has seen pictures of the camps knows that they were far from fun places to be. Depending on which camp you were in, multiple families would have to live in one room with a handful of cots and only wood scraps to try and patch the numerous holes in the walls. Bathrooms were often communal. Not only did they have to shower together (tolerable, if a bit embarrassing), but they also had to poo together because the toilets lacked partitions. Yay civil rights!
2. As to your assertion that the camps were places where people were provided for better than many at the time, let me go ahead and compare this to something thats very similar. Prison. It provides you with food, a gym, a library, and even classes, all on the taxpayers dime. You dont have to do anything if you dont want to. Now, do YOU want to be in prison for no reason? I certainly dont. Theres no way to justify taking away the civil rights of a whole group of people who are innocent.
As to the idea that people refused to leave the camps because they were these wonderlands of awesomeness, clearly you have not actually READ the book you quote. They didnt stay because the camps were great places to be. They stayed for a variety of very complex reasons including, but not limited to:
a) they had nowhere to go. They had lost their jobs and homes. b) They were reluctant to go back to communities where they would be met with even MORE racism than they had seen before.
c) At least in the case of farewell, though Im sure it applies to many others as well, the people were disillusioned and depressed. The father of that family had lost his faith in himself to be the protector and leader of the family and fallen into alcoholism. Relying on his leadership (or lack thereof) the family stayed for lack of options.
And d) after having been in the camps for so long, many simply didnt want to leave because they were afraid of change. It happens a lot with long-time prisoners and kidnap victims (often referred to as Stockholm syndrome)
Id also like to address some comments you made to me on some other videos. I would have been happy to let them go on the grounds of their utter ridiculousness, but since you have engaged me once again, I will respond. This is in response to your assertions that the JA could leave whenever they wanted to, and that they didnt want to (you cite Farewell to Manzanar) and that the camps were dreamlands where people lounged, merrily living a carefree life on the taxpayers dime.
As to the leave whenever they want claim: Thats a pure lie. They could leave after an extremely arbitrary loyalty hearing (which many did not get), after signing a ridiculous pledge (more on that in a minute), after proving they had somewhere to go (which most did not have), and after proving that they had employment to return to (which most had been forced to leave).
Recently released government documents show just how arbitrary those loyalty hearings were. Scores were based on things like; if you played baseball, you a good point. If you knew Judo, you get lots of bad points. People who were labeled as disloyal were even barred from returning to the west coast after the war ended.
The pledges they were required to sign said that they would a) renounce loyalty to the emperor, b) declare loyalty to the US, and c) be willing to fight for the US. This was a big problem for many. If you need it spelled out, here are the problems:
Most of them were Americans, with no loyalty to the emperor to begin with. They saw the pledge as some kind of trick that would be used later to condemn them, much like the old law joke do you still beat your wife? For those who werent citizens, they refused to sign it because the US refused to let them be citizens, and signing the pledge effectively meant they had NO country, a terrifying prospect to be sure.
4. Oh, and I should mention that being a Shintoist earned you an automatic mark of "disloyal." So much for "freedom of religion," eh? Let's add that to the already massive list of civil liberties stripped from innocent people.
9. Wow. You managed to take the least significant point of all of my posts and center right on it. Good job there. The point of that little rant was that loyalty tests were arbitrary and not an actual reliable test. The people who came up with and administered the tests later admitted that they were not reliable or fair.
10. As I've said before, your logic that you don't need to be convicted if you're an enemy alien is fine. I still find it borderline unethical, given the fact that asian aliens weren't allowed to nationalize, but that's a much finer line. LIKE I'VE SAID: this doesn't justify the incarceration of American citizens, though.
35. Your assertion regarding shinto is wrong, like so many of your other wild claims. Shinto is split into two types: state and village. Both types believe in nature "spirits," but state shinto also believes that spirits are all governed by a high God (Kami), who is personified by the Emperor.
Shintoists were rare enough as it was in America in 1940, but state shintoists were practically unheard of.
In farewell to manzanar the authors father had a shrine to to japan and the emperor
in his living room which he removed only when he was told the FBI wanted to talk with him and he was demoralized because he knew japan was losing the war.
43. Re: your comments about "farewell." The father in that story was a Japanese national. For the purpose of our discussion, we have only been talking about American citizens.
And I'm not even going to point out how ridiculous it is to oversimplify a man's staggering depression the way you just did. Oh wait, I just did.
49. Ah, perhaps in my fairly recent stress on the fact that we're talking about AMERICANS and not nationals, you misunderstood me. I'm sure a certain number of Issei "worshipped" the emperor, but they're irrelevant to a discussion regarding Americans.
I was also pointing out your false claim that being Japanese and religious automatically makes you a worshipper of the Emperor. That's a fairly small percentage of Shinto, and a TINY percentage of eastern religion in general.
Am220, I also fail to see how the actions of people in another country (who have nothing in common with those in the US other than their race) should influence our opinion of 70k americans.
In hearings, many high-level military officials admitted that they knew full well that the Japanese did not have the capability to bring enough force to bear on the west coast for a full-on invasion.
1. Now, since I know you've already discounted Munson (for no fathomable reason), I'll provide you with more. Military leaders didn't actually believe large scale invasion or attack was possible by Japan, which is why they denied DeWitt's request for more troops on the west coast before pearl harbor. General Clark, testified (in court, so there are records if you want to look them up) that the notion of serious attack from Japan was ridiculous, but said air-raids were possible.
Here comes where I start copy-pasting my own comments because you keep making me repeat myself. For future reference, anything I say with a number in front of it is a repost. In response to your "threat of invasion" theory, that has been debunked by many many historians.
Well, they're not all reposts. Rather, many of them will be reposts, but (when I remember to) I will also number my new posts in case you make me repeat them later.
Ah, you're back. Don't bother apologizing for accusing neko of blocking you or anything, since that would be the decent thing to do. Or for accusing her of being me.
Well, it looks like that's finally over. Since I don't want my last, seemingly random, comment to be the first thing on your video, I'll let this be: Good job on the video, Neko! It's absolutely stunning, and you deserve all the praise you've been getting for it. I suppose any piece of art this good is going to attract its fair share of crazies, so don't let it get you down. Love you!
So, FYI: since you seem bound and determined to harp on the same irrelevent arguments, insults, and utterly ridiculous conspiracy theories, I'm taking a new tactic. You've made me repeat many things and have failed to address most of my points. So now whenever you post something, I'm just going to repost unless you've brought up something new and relevent. I'm going to number those reposts, so that if I have to repeat them AGAIN, I can just say "see comment #__"
No. I refuse to play your little games anymore. I've cited several professional historians and you have given me no compelling reason not to believe what they say. You see, that's their job. THEY do the research, then compile it in these handy little things called "papers." Sometimes they even put those papers together to make something called a "book."
70 years of historians and scholars support me. You're going to need to give me some reason to dismiss them other than "they're liberals"
In case you continue commenting today, just a general announcement: I have a test to study for, so no more commenting today. I'll be back tomorrow. Just FYI so you don't think I'm running away from you or anything.
Feel free to use this time to respond to my dozens of comments you have left unanswered.
And another thing: You citing the niihau incident actually weakens your argument. That is, your argument that it indicates that the JA were likely to be treasonous. Consider this: The Niihau incident took place in Hawaii. One could safely say, then, that the JA involved have the most in common with other JA in Hawaii. There was no en masse internment of JA in Hawaii. There were also no other occurrances of treason. Which proves that the niihau incident was an isolated incident.
So far your refusal to accept my sources (what few you've chosen to address) has been based on (paraphrased) "they were lying," "clearly JA pressured them into saying that," "historians are biased liberal liars" and "they're just having some kind of knee-jerk OMGRACISM! reaction." Essentially, the last 70 years of academia, history, legislation, and government has been one vast conspiracy.
I refuse to accept your conspiracy theory unless you can give me some kind of actual, provable fact.
Well, I suppose I would have to concede if you could somehow prove every single individual JA was a traitor. But I think things like the 442nd and numerous personal accounts pretty effectively prevent that possibility.
I'd like you to keep in mind that I'm presenting a lot of these facts right now in an effort to expose your lies. As I've stated before (I seem to be saying that a lot lately..) I don't personally believe that ANY amount of evidence would have been sufficient to justify punishing people for having the nerve to be born to Japanese parents in America.
If you're STILL not convinced the MAGIC cables are invalid as a justification for the internment, I invite you to read the Historians' Committee for Fairness statement about Malkin's book. It denounces her book (and thus, all of your arguments) as biased, distorted, and historically inaccurate. It's also signed by 40 prominent historians and researchers. The statement particularly harps on Malkin's use of MAGIC as justification.
I dont care what you denounce , your opinion means nothing to me as i have proven you wrong many times. Please find just one historical fact from that ime that shows there was strong indication that the japanese Americans would not assist the japanese if given the opportunity. FDR had to be certain because just one spy could have been responsible for the death of thousands. Do not point to the 442 RCT
as its formation was not until long after the relocation and FDRs order .
Also, I'm not asking you to rely on my opinion when I denouce your one source and other authors with your views. As stated, I'm asking you to rely on entire committees filled with prominent scholars and historians. That's why I'm providing you with these sources. So that you won't have to rely on my opinion.
So, to sum up what you've told me, then taking into account my adjustments of your numbers based on actual statistics, you're basing your opinion of over 70,000 people on the actions of 3. That's .0004% of the population. Not exactly a good indication of a pattern, by any professional standard.
I'd also like to note that 2 of the main people who had access to the MAGIC decrypts, McCloy and Stimson, initially opposed the internment, and even when they finally reluctantly agreed, they never cited MAGIC as a motivator. DeWitt was the biggest proponent for the internment, and he did not have access. He was also notoriously racist, and there's ample proof if you need it.
whoops, I really should read back through comments before I rush into new ones. Sorry, it seems I did indeed ask for evidence of Japanese American wrongdoing, rather than espionage. My bad. Though perhaps what I should have asked for is one example of Japanese American wrongdoing which is enough to justify interning over 70k Americans or indicate a pattern. On that note, I also have yet to find any evidence that anyone in the Tachibana spy ring was American rather than a Japanese national.
How can you claim to know what was going through a dead man's head? Really? If this were not an isolated incident, you might be able to assertively claim it wasn't remorse. But this is not the case.
And at least I have owned up to my handful of flubs (which have not been nearly on the scale of your mistakes, which you have yet to own up to)
My apologies are not "forced." I chose to offer them because I believe that owning up to one's mistakes is the right thing to do. You've yet to own up to the many mistakes of yours I've pointed out. You've also yet to apologize for repeatedly attacking me personally, indirectly though most of those attacks were phrased.
I'd also like to point out that my apologies have largely been for insults, misspellings, and misremembering my own comments. Hardly on the scale of your mistakes, which cover insults, misrepresentation of facts, outright lies, outrageously broad generalizations, and a constant inability to spell or use proper grammar.
If my apologies are only going to be used to further attack me, I'm more than happy to retract them.
You are kidding again. You started by saying no Germans and italians were interned. since then i have educated
you I can point to as many historians
and writers as you can and I got you started doing research ,although one sided. So why not just give me historical facts. No opinion, as the opinion of these
liberal academics sitting safe in their ivory tower putting forth their opinion 60 years after the fact means nothing to me. .
Excuse me, I assumed (silly me!) you would know what I meant by that. I meant no italians or germans were incarcerated en masse. I'd like you to point to some of these historians you keep talking about. You have yet to mention any, and I have yet to find any who aren't considered unprofessional hacks.
I have given you many facts, if you'd bothered check my sources. These sources that you discount, for no discernable reason, cited primary sources. Check their sources if you don't believe me.
I have never claimed to be a historian. That's why I keep pointing you to historians for the facts. I copy them here, and you demand to know the source. I tell you, and you claim it's just opinion. You know where I'm getting my information. If you think they're lies, you can feel free to check the sources. What do you want from me? I can't scan in and post every damn document I'm quoting.
I would like you to read your sources pick out the historical fact from that time period if they provide any, then post them in a stand alone post that does not contain opinion.
If you bothered to read my sources you would more fully understand why MAGIC is not a good justification for anyone, and shouldn't be for you either. They also address the Tachibana spy ring. Since you refuse to read anything I point you to, let me quote the article directly:
"Hawaii spy rings is largely beside the point, since those were shut down many months before Pearl Harbor. Indeed, it was precisely the success of American intelligence to defuse the threat that gave the FBI such confidence that any danger could be dealt with."
Your sources are just people giving their opinion. If you have a book that has actual historical fact i will read it but there is a good chance i already have. Academics
who agree with me are censored by their piers. if one dared support the governments position they would be called racist and driven out of their job.
All of the sources I cited are from people who have done extensive research through government records and have interviewed internees. If you'd bothered to read what they have to say, you'd realize that they regularly cite court records, government memos, and other legitimate primary sources. Their writings are extremely educated analysis and summary of their findings.
People like Lowman and Malkin, however, have been denounced mainly because of their refusal to actually do any real research before publishing, or flagrantly misrepresenting what research they did do.
If you need more specific examples, I point you to several books: Eric Muller wrote "American Inquisition" after having spent months poring over recently released goverment documents regarding the "loyaly" tests. Greg Robinson wrote "By order of the President" after doing extensive research on goverment records, official communications, and personal testimonies regarding FDR's motivations.
David Neiwert wrote "Strawberry days" after interviewing dozens of internees as well as reviewing government documents, which he freely cites. I can go on, if you would like.
For the record, of the several historians' negative critiques I have read of Malkin, not a single one accused her of personally being a racist. The closest they got was criticizing her refusal to take the prominent racism at the time into account, even briefly.
I'd like to point you to a direct quote from General DeWitt (apologies for misspelling his name earlier), who knew of the tachibana spy ring and the niihau incident. This is a quote from an official memorandum regarding the military neccessity of the internment.
"The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken"
I hope the utter ridiculousness of his logic is not lost on you either.
It took 7 mo. for another plane to be captured. In the Nihau incident by assisting the japanese pilot in removing the machine guns from the aircraft and subsequent actions Harada and friends engaged in armed insurection and treason. This incident also gave a good indication of how other emotional japanese americans might behave. You are a good indication of this. There could have been as many as 20000 of these emotional Japanese tratiors that when given a chance would choose to side with japan
How am I an example of this? I'm supporting Americans, not Japanese. I have said AGAIN AND AGAIN that I never claimed all Japanese people were innocent. Just that a lot of AMERICANS (not to mention innocent immigrants who weren't allowed to become American until much later) suffered needlessly due to racial prejudice.
Also, you show your real colors (no pun intended) with this comment. You're coming to conclusions about a huge population of people based on the actions of 2. 2 people who didn't have anything in common with most of those interned except their race.
Oh, and if this number is including the number of nissei who repatriated after the internment (which STILL wouldn't bring the number up to 20,000 according to any statistics I can get a hold of), that's kind of a "no, duh" situation. They weren't doing it to fight for Japan or show solidarity and loyalty, or any other reason. They were doing it to get the hell out of a country that had blatantly discriminated against them for decades and then IMPRISONED them for no discernible reason.
i love this song
morrousa1 10 months ago
Don't be so sad.. all will be free to go back to their american lives once the atomic bombs will be dropped.
NickVenture1 11 months ago
Sometimes the comments to these videos say more about the state of racism and justice in the US today than the video ever could . . . At least it's nice to see how many people know their facts and defend them.
As far as the video goes, good music choice and a nice selection of pictures. I also like the way you sped up the editing as the music picked up.
MurasakiNeko 1 year ago
Sorry, not that I don't like the Freedom of Speech and everything, but I had to delete Bringtherain888's comment because it was hateful, and vulgar, and the user offered no explanation for their comment.
NekoRyuukiChan 1 year ago
Ah, Youtube is apparently not letting me post comments on my video anymore. So I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope that this one makes it through. Madiee, the song is actually by the Dutch group "Within Temptation", not Melinda Spencer (that's me, the video creator). I'll add their website to the info for this video.
NekoRyuukiChan 1 year ago
The song "Overcome by Melinda Spencer" do you know any were you can download it?
MadieeVideoGurl15 1 year ago
Fort Minor - Kenji
vgybygv 1 year ago
@vgybygv Actually, I have that song, too! I have a much higher respect for Fort Minor after he did that song. It's a seldom touched-on subject for schools, let alone songs!
NekoRyuukiChan 1 year ago
im Japanese ^_^
bulbasaur09 2 years ago 2
In a show of good faith, I'd also like to point out that am220's statistic about the 20k who requested repatriation is correct. I was under the impression that it was wrong because that number is rarely cited. Most requested it after the disastrous loyalty questionaires: in response to false rumors, coercion, or as their only means of expressing their anger.
Less than 10k followed through on repatriating, and the rest of the applications were found invalid by the courts due to coercion.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If anyone is interested in reading up on this (or knowing my sources), by far the best free resource is the CWRIC series of papers "Personal Justice Denied" and the hundreds of sources cited therein. The JACL website is also a good starting point.
I've also relied heavily on the blogs, books, and papers of David Neiwert, Greg Robinson, Eric Muller, James McNaughton (Command historian of the US Army), Michi Weglyn, Roger Daniels, John Herzig (retired intelligence officer), and many others.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Sadly, I've had to block am220uss from this video. His posts degenerated from creating an intelligent debate against his ignorant views, into straight hate speech and racism. He will probably be back with a new account, at least until the Help Center manages to track down his IP address and block him entirely from the website.
Note that it's not really that he's uninformed, just that he's been informed by incorrect sources. Or rather, a singular incorrect source and its very few supporters.
NekoRyuukiChan 2 years ago
Thank you! You've been exceedingly patient through the whole thing. Personally, I would have blocked him long before he wound up resorting to claiming that the civil rights of a "few thousand crybaby Japanese" are somehow negligible. But at least now no one can claim that you blocked him solely for disagreeing with you.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I still do not have a good answer to my
question. What was FDR to do when
he heard how the Japanese living in the American territory of the Philippines helped the japanese army when they invaded a few days after Pearl Harbor?
Just forget about it I suppose
am220uss 2 years ago
Allot of my posts are still being blocked.
am220uss 2 years ago
You might be having the same problem as me. I find that if you post too much in a small period of time, the comments will temporarily shut down. I dunno if it's because the system overloads or if it's an anti-spam measure. If you just wait a few minutes, it usually comes back up. I also recommend refreshing the page between each post. That way, if the comments are disabled, it won't let you even try, and you don't waste your time typing something out that won't be accepted.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
43. I'd also like to make clear that I'm not saying that SOME kind of defensive measure wouldn't have been called for. You seem to think very much in black and white terms. First of all, I've admitted that some kind of measure against the Japanese NATIONALS may have been called for, though it still would have been kind of a moral grey zone.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
44. Secondly, there were a lot of reasonable measures that were presented before the internment. For instance, McCloy called for military exclusion zones only near airports, military bases, manufacturing plants, etc. Those zones would have been reasonably sized, and exclude everyone (regardless of race or citizenship). Then people could apply for permits to be in the areas on a need-only basis. Evacuating the entire west coast was an extreme and prejudiced measure, not to mention a costly one.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
There were highways, bridges, railroads ,water mains, power plants,
dams, high tension lines, oil refineries
etc. all over the area, MoCloy's idea was unworkable. The easiest way to shut down an aircraft factory would be to cut off the power supply
am220uss 2 years ago
That is quite a switch from your original position . perhaps you are beginning to think about other than japanese suffering.
am220uss 2 years ago
50. My original position has not changed. I've always held that the internment was prejudiced and entirely unjustifiable. No one so far before in this thread has said "the internment was wrong, but something more reasonable was definitely called for." If they had, I would have agreed. And if you'll notice, in #43, I'm not saying the Japanese nationals should have been necessarily interned either. Just that some kind of measure, that applied to Italians and Germans too, might have been called for
Nicole7871 2 years ago
51. I've never actively ignored the suffering of those outside the Japanese. You seem to think that because, in this thread, I'm focusing on one example of human suffering, that I don't sympathize with any other suffering. That's ridiculous. I'm choosing, in this discussion, to focus my attention on the massive injustice done to one group of people. The very minor threat presented by those interned is outweighed by the lasting, horrifying effect of the internment.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If this is a massive suffering and injustice what was the draft ? Shouldn't you address the worst first. For almost all japanese the whole thing was just a inconvience with some financial loss for a few. Do you think were going to have a world war and
everybody is going to skip along as usual. You are so naive.
am220uss 2 years ago
56. The thing about the draft is that most people today know about it. It was tragic, and its repeated use keeps young men in turbulent times constantly afraid. But very few people know even the tiniest thing about the Japanese internment. THAT'S why I choose to focus on it.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
42. By the way, am220, your repeated need to lump Americans of Japanese descent together with Japanese nationals is pretty damn clear evidence of your racism. How can you not see that?
Your views have repeatedly hammered in the idea that anyone of Japanese descent was guilty until proven innocent. That they were inherently dangerous. THAT'S THE ESSENCE OF DISCRIMINATION.
You've used the actions of a few to judge the whole. THAT'S PREJUDICE.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If I lump them all together how come I gave you those numbers in seperate groups? What law are you using and what definition and what time period?
You just make charges. In 1941 if I did not want to hire a person from Italy there was no law against refusing to hire because of ethnic back ground
it was a free country.
am220uss 2 years ago
45. You're lumping everyone into one group, because you're using flawed logic to condemn a whole population of people. You've come up with numbers and suspicions that apply to some, but not all. There were a huge amount of adult American citizens (not of dual citizenship) who were interned for no reason. You've used logic that applies to others to assume that they were all a threat.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
52. Wait, let me get this straight... you're trying to say that prejudice and discrimination are okay because it was accepted back then? Just because discrimination and racism was legal doesn't mean we should condone and justify actions based on it.
You'll recall that slavery used to be legal, too, once upon a time. That doesn't mean we should look back and say "that's okay, it was legal back then."
Nicole7871 2 years ago
This was war . Laws are different today but I am not going to condem our leaders for doing what had to be done to protect our servicemen especially since i was one of them. 16million were in uniform about 11 million (all adults) were drafted and did not want to be there and you worry only about the civil rightsof a few thousand Japanese cry babies. Those drafted often suffered horribly
and hundreds of thousands died. It was necessary and had to be done.
am220uss 2 years ago
55. "Cry babies"? You claim to have read extensively on the subject, yet your ignorance on the internment camps is astounding. People were not "inconvenienced" or have "some financial loss." The vast majority of people interned lost everything they had. They lost their farms, their businesses, their homes, and most of their possessions. Not to mention their loss of family cohesion, sense of security, and trust in their country.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
@Nicole7871 They were deprived of their human dignity. No innocent human being deserves to be treated this way!, especiclly children. These were American citizens that were betrayed by their American govenrment. What an embaressment. What a shame. What a SIN!
DonChorolo 1 year ago 5
I've lived in Japan. For 3 years. And I would no more than anyone here. I totalli agree with Nicole7871
sexiwatermelon123456 2 years ago
Thank you! Support is always appreciated. :-)
Nicole7871 2 years ago
So you have been to japan for 3 years and you know all about the internment
and relocation. Why don't you tell us about it? While you were there did you get a copy of Eizo Hori's book " records of a intelligence war staff officer at imperial general headquarters " Hori states that
japanese americans helped gather espionage before Pearl Harbor and
that the internment broke up Japan's
espionage rings. I need a copy.
am220uss 2 years ago
33. I'm also gonna go ahead and reiterate that your claim (here or on other videos) that children were only interned in order to keep them with their families is an outright lie.
How do you explain the almost 100 orphans (as young as SIX MONTHS) who were interned? There are even reports that a handful of those orphans were taken from their adoptive white parents in order to be interned.
I suppose babies might have brought about thousands of deaths, right?
Nicole7871 2 years ago
How do i explain it ? Threy were taken for their own protection as the geneva conventiom requires and as you pointed out was a main consideration.
am220uss 2 years ago
36. Would you mind clarifying this? Those orphans were American citizens, not enemy aliens. There was absolutely no reason to take them from orphanages and foster homes and put them in a desolate, barbed-wire enclosed camp.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If we had left one japanese free and he or she was attacked and beaten what do you think would have happened to the many thousands of Americans being held by japan. If word had gotten to japan tthey would have used this as an excuse
to do far worse to Americans. I am sure
you are aware of the rape of Nanking and the brutal treatment of those held by Japan. Chinese and filippinos living here violently attacked the japanese americans for what they did in their
countries.
am220uss 2 years ago
46. You're joking, right? This is coming dangerously close to claiming that the internment was for their own good, which is a laughable concept.
The Japanese had been discriminated against and publicly slandered for years. Violence against the Japanese was widespread before the internment, especially after pearl harbor.
If anything, rounding up all Japanese as though they were criminals and putting them in desolate, guarded camps actually was a WORSE plan for appeasing Japan.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
25. I am so glad you brought up dual citizenship. It's what legitimate internment historians call a "red herring" in discussions like this.
"Dual citizenship" is a term that is often misused and misunderstood. Under US law dual citizenship is largely ignored. All it means is that you have the right to claim citizenship to more than one nation. Anyone who was born in a foreign country, has one foreign parent, or marries a foreign person technically has dual citizenship.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
27. (damnit, reused #25) Most people who are dual citizens actually do not know that they are such. The majority of JA who were interned were surprised to find out, and actively went through the process of renouncing their claim to Japanese citizenship just before the internment.
Historically, the US has always treated dual citizens as though they were solely citizens of the country they have spent the majority of their lives in.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
34. If you need better numbers on the whole dual citizenship thing: Most, if not all, of the 70k citizens had dual citizenship at some point, since most of them were only second generation and had foreign parents. If 20k were dual citizens inside the camps, that means that 50k actively went through the formal process of renouncing their claim to Japan before the war. Those who didn't do so were mostly kids whose parents were nervous about being separated because of their citizenship status.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Japanese living in the American territory of the Philippines helped the Japanese
army when they invaded a few days after Pearl Harbor. FDR knew this when he signed the relocatonn order
am220uss 2 years ago
31. I've answered your claims about the Phillipines. "Am220, I also fail to see how the actions of people in another country (who have nothing in common with those in the US other than their race) should influence our opinion of 70k americans." There were no American citizens involved in the incidents in the Phillipines, which makes them irrelevant to this discussion.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I have not seen anything I would consider
. a answer. Here is a clear example of how a j apanese population living in a American territiory behaved when given the opportunity to assist a invading Japanese Army It was only 2 months
before the internment order was signed
Should FDR have ignored this?
am220uss 2 years ago
37. You seem to be under the common revisionist mistake of thinking that Japanese nationals are the same as American citizens. I've said it many many times. They're not the same. Even if you, in your infinite ignorance, think they are essentially the same, the government had a duty to afford them the same rights as any other american. The right to not be discriminated against because of something outside their individual actions.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Most japanese men belonged to one or more secret societies. Such as the deep ocean society that was sworn to support Japan and the emperor. The supported
the japanese military with contributions
and were organized for espionage and sabotage.
am220uss 2 years ago
18. (I hesitate to post on this topic before you've responded to my other comments, am220, but I'm posting against my better judgment. I hope you don't use these comments as an excuse to brush over my past ones, like you have before):
Nicole7871 2 years ago
19. Back to the idea that it was a response to invasion, and that Germany did not pose as big a threat, I'd like to state that that's a false premise. I'll address the "threat of invasion" thing in more detail in a minute. As for Germany not being as big a threat, why then did the Allies have a "germany first" strategy, even following Pearl Harbor?
Nicole7871 2 years ago
20. Also, as Gen. Biddle stated in his memoirs, the threat off the west coast was nothing (about a dozen ships by 1942 sunk) compared to the horrendous loss the Allies were sustaining in the Atlantic from German attacks (several HUNDRED sunk by 1942).
Nicole7871 2 years ago
21. As for the "threat of invasion" premise, this is also a false one. Here's a quote from the Canadian prime minister's records, regarding a conversation he had with FDR in June of 1942: "It was clear that he, himself, did not contemplate much in the way of an attack on our Pacific Coast."
Nicole7871 2 years ago
22. And more: During the Eisenhower administration, long before there was any active pressure from the Japanese American community (which is your reason for discounting the 1980's apology), the majority of those involved in calling for the internment called the policy a mistake and supported reparations.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
23. A sample of those involved: Atty. Gen. Clark, Mayor Bowron, Earl Warren, Stimson, and McCloy. Mcloy told congress that reimbursement "is only an appropriate form of recognition for the loyalty which Japanese Americans as a whole evidenced to the country during the war."
Nicole7871 2 years ago
24. And even more: Recently a memo from McCloy has come to light, on which there is a hand-written postcript saying: "These people are not 'internees': They are under no suspicion for the most part and were removed largely because we felt we could not control our own white citizens in California."
Nicole7871 2 years ago
25. It's also important to note that the battle of Midway occurred in early June of 1942. After that, though those in charge had no way of knowing how important that victory would ultimately be, they were well aware that their victory had effectively put them on equal footing with Japan's navy, forcing what was left of the Japanese ships into a defensive rather than attack role.
Most of the permanent internment facilities were built and filled between June and November of that year.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
And the geneava conventions required us to protect them ,you can find this in my previous posts.
am220uss 2 years ago
41. Your repeated insistance on the Geneva conventions are false false false, as I've pointed out. They do not apply to the orphans we are discussing, or any other American citizens, because they were neither prisoners of war nor civilians in the hands of the enemy and under military occupation by a foreign power.
Besides, those orphans were perfectly fine where they were. The camps were very much a step down in living conditions for most.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Isn't hindsight wonderful.
am220uss 2 years ago
40. Re: your comment about hindsight. Read comment #25 again. Go ahead. I wasn't talking about hindsight. Read it reeeeeally carefully. You'll notice that I'm talking about how those in charge were well aware, BEFORE the permanent camps were filled, that Japan no longer had the capability to launch any kind of significant attack on the West coast.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
The losses incurred on the East coast were from submarines ( u-boats) . U boats cannot support a invasion it takes
aircraft carriers and troop ships. The germans had none I cannot teach you about Navies ships and naval operations
Your statments show you know nothing about it . There was no possibility of invasion on our east coast and that is all there is to say about it. If you continue to push this point you will only show your ignorance.
am220uss 2 years ago
39. Again with the insults! Bravo, you're really outdoing yourself lately. So, in response to my mountains of quotes and evidence and testimony that there was no actual threat of invasion from Japan, your choice is to resort to calling me ignorant and then saying that there was no threat of invasion from Germany. My comments about the German u-boats were regarding your claim that Japan was a bigger threat in general. I wasn't talking about invasion in my comments regarding the East coast.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
And these same people probably said there was no threat to Pearl Harbor. We were in total war on two fronts nothing was left to chance. We built a highway to Alaska that cost millions just in case they landed there. I was talking about invasion why else talk about the east coast, with your repeated shouts that there was no mass internment of germans on the east coast . Relocation was a response to the threat of invasion.
am220uss 2 years ago
47. I'm not saying there wasn't a threat; that would be ridiculous. But threat and invasion are different. Threat implies the ability to launch some kind of attack, perhaps air raids. Invasion implies a huge-scale attack, including ground troops. Military leaders were wary of threats, but viewed invasion as largely impossible. With that in mind, there was actually equal threat on both coasts. Which is why the Germans and Italians are relevant to this discussion.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
There was no threat on the east coast and you know it. japanese submarines shelled the oil refineries south of LA with their deck guns and launched aircraft and bombed the U.S.. They japanese Navy crossed large bodies of water and invaded many countries sucessfully. Germany could not even invade England and you can see across the channel on a clear day. Also there were two very powerful navies in the Alantic (Brits and U.S.) where in the pacific our navy was at the bottom of pearl harbor.
am220uss 2 years ago
It was Germany first because England was in bad shape and needed help
also FDR knew Germany was working on a atomic bomb and as yet did not know about Japan's atomic bomb project.
am220uss 2 years ago
5. Am220, since you're not responding fast enough for my taste, and I'm exceedingly bored, I'm going to take the time to respond to some more comments I have seen you make on other videos. I can't find the specific comments in order to quote them, but on one video you asserted that (paraphrased): the internment was necessary because even one instance of espionage/sabotage/treason had the potential to kill thousands and/or seriously hamper the US war effort.
Rebuttal to follow:
Nicole7871 2 years ago
6. This is an extremely slippery slope to go down, and I'm frankly suprised you're resorting to it. The logic of this statement actually destroys any argument that the internment wasn't inherently racist (or unethically discriminatory, if you choose to believe that "Japanese" is not a race). If we went around incarcerating whole groups of people because they MIGHT do something bad, based on the actions of a handful, we'd wind up incarcerating EVERYONE.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
7. For example, using your logic, I could posit that we imprison all people of Korean descent because the VT shooter was one. I could say that since Tim McVeigh, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and many others were white, that we should imprison ALL white people because there's a chance that they might be dangerous. Or instead of "white" I could say "men." Or instead of "men" I could say "people between the ages of __ and __." You see where I'm going with this?
Nicole7871 2 years ago
8. Not to mention the fact that we had FAR more definitive evidence of treason/sabotage/espionage from German-Americans than Japanese-Americans. Yet there was no en masse incarceration of German-Americans on the East coast.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
There was no threat of invasion on the East coast as the Germans did not have
a navy left in 1942 . The en masse incarceration as you call it or relocation as i call it was a response to the threat of invasion on our west coast
am220uss 2 years ago
we were at war with japan not Korea
tim Mcveigh or any of the others. Just more absurd logic.
am220uss 2 years ago
More absurd logic. We were at war with japan ,almost all the adults were enemy aliens, their children and dependants. All countries at war did the same including
England , Canada ,Mexico, and Japan,
I will no longer respond to your absurd comparisons . Please stick to Japan
Germany and Italy and 1940s .
am220uss 2 years ago
Re: "threat of invasion."
See comment #1
Nicole7871 2 years ago
10. Ah, resorting to insults again. Good job. My logic is not absurd, as being at war should not give a government the right to do something outrageously discriminatory and unethical to their own people.
Just because other countries did it doesn't mean we should have.
I'd also like you to provide numbers and their sources. You keep claiming things, and since I've called you on at least 2 numerical mistakes, so I call all of your facts into question from now on.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
11. You keep saying that "almost all" those interned were either enemy aliens or children. Now, lets ignore for a second that interning even a single American citizen for no reason is unethical to the extreme. But any statistics I can find say that 110k to 120k people of Japanese ancestry were interned and about 70k were Americans. 40k to 60k were under 18. Even using generous numbers, and assuming that all of those minors were born in the US, that leaves at least 10k adult American citizens.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
12. After doing a bit more sifting through online government documents, I found a nice summary by the WRA. I can't yet find a specific number on how many American citizens were adults, but I found one which says "the population includes about 19,000 citizen men between the ages of 18 and 37." Since most of the citizens interned were under 40, we'll assume that's a more or less accurate number of half the adult citizen population in the camps.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
13. In summary, approximately 38k of those interned were adult American citizens.
You may argue that some were dependents, and you'd probably be right. But you'd have to come up with some kind of solid proof if you want to say that ALL 38,000 were.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
How about dual citizenship.. I have seen estimates of 20000 for this number. Also this does not include the 16000 held by the Justice dept. The WRA was seperate.
The 110 thousand number used includes both I believe.
am220uss 2 years ago
43000 enemy aliens
20000 dual citizenship.
5300 U.S. born renounced citizenship
20000 requested to be sent to japan
44000 children
16000 interned by justice dept. There is some overlap so it is almost impossible to get accurate numbers
but they are certainly enough to make the and relocation necessary . The standard treatment that all receive in peace would have over whelmed our system and we could not afford to wait till after the fact as one could have killed .thousands.
am220uss 2 years ago
28. I've already addressed your statements regarding people repatriating. Since most of those numbers come from after the internment, they cannot be entered into consideration for a discussion like this. Many of them chose to repatriate out of anger at the US for interning them, not a desire to fight for Japan. Since it's impossible to know what was the motivating factor for all of those people, it's unfair to assume that their repatriation indicates that they may have been a danger.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
34. Allow me to clarify comment #28 a bit.
What I am saying is that those people who repatriated after the internment began can't be taken into account. Most claimed to repatriate because they wanted to get out of the US, where they were being punished for no reason. There's no saying what they would have done if the internment hadn't taken place. They might have been entirely patriotic.
As they say, kick a dog enough and they'll eventually bite you (not that I'm calling JA dogs).
Nicole7871 2 years ago
32. As to your claim that standard treatment would have overwhelmed our system, I completely agree. Unfortunately for you, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm arguing that the American citizens, who were interned for no reason other than their ancestry, should not have been interned in the first place. They were targeted for being members of an ethnic group, not for anything they had done personally.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
International law applies here, they did not have to be convicted of anything to be relocated or have done anything. We were not going to wait till after the fact when thousands are dead before relocating somebody. The children have no rights when their parents were taken they had to go. Even in times of peace a child does not get to do whatever it likes
if the parents are taken away for being illeagal aliens.
am220uss 2 years ago
To clarify the 20000 dual citizenship
number. That is the number I have for those actually registered by their enemy alien parents at the japanese embassy
and consulates. Those who were sent to japan for schooling (which included military training) had to have this.
am220uss 2 years ago
38. As I mentioned in comment #34, the vast majority of children who were registered were done so because their parents had been denied the ability to nationalize. Out of fear of being separated from their children, those parents made sure they had legitimate citizenship in both countries.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
About one third of all children were sent to Japan for education and they needed to be registered citizens to do this.
am220uss 2 years ago
48. This number is actually wrong. According to memos from McCloy and Marshall, as well as a number of more contemporary estimates, somewhere between 9 and 10k of the entire JA population was kibei. That's a seventh of the population, not a third.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
52. In response to your numbers, I'd like to point out a few more of your mistakes. First, according to the CWRIC, 3121 people were interned by the Justice Department, not 16k. Second, though there are no solid numbers that I can find saying how many REQUESTED to be sent to Japan, only 4724 were actually sent (presumably all Issei). The second one is not necessarily a mistake on your part, but since I've caught you in mistakes before, I'd like you to provide your source.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
53. Turns out your number for those who requested re/expatriation is off, too. According to CWRIC and statistics from the 1943 internment segregation, about 7,000 had requested re/expatriation, not 20,000. I'm assuming this number doesn't include or overlaps the 4724 who were sent to Japan, which I quoted earlier (#52). So, even adding those numbers together doesn't come anywhere near 20 thousand.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
by the end of 1943 there were 9,028 and by 1944 the number was 19,014 and by 1945 it was over twenty thousand.
am220uss 2 years ago
54. I've provided sources (as well as reasons why repatriation can't be taken into account.) Your numbers mean nothing unless you can tell me where you're getting them.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
8000 actually went back to Japan not because they were the only ones who wanted to go but because the transfers could not be arranged
am220uss 2 years ago
The Justice Dept. interned only those suspected of being disloyal that may be where your 3121 number comes from.
In a humane gesture they allow the family to accompany the head of houshold to the internment camps but they could not leave once they entered. The total was about 16000. You have never caught me in a mistake I have had to clarify things for you but that is because you know so little.
am220uss 2 years ago
Comment removed
Nicole7871 2 years ago
As for insults I have never used a word that could not be used in polite company.
On the other hand, you have used horrible language and referred to me directly as this foul thing or that. It looks like you have finally began to examine
your logic and can now begin to see
why i call it absurd. I hope you will grow up and examine your posts and not let your passion rule your thinking.
am220uss 2 years ago
29. I have never claimed higher moral ground regarding insults. YOU, however, got up on your high horse, so I'm gleefully taking every opportunity to point out your insults to me in order to highlight your hypocrisy.
Using words like "absurd" when "illogical" would have sufficed are very much an insult. And now telling me I should grow up? Why, because I chose to call you out on your constant need to talk down to me in a sad effort to invalidate my arguments?
Nicole7871 2 years ago
30. Also, if you go back and actually READ my comments where I examine your logic, I actually explain why my comparisons are NOT "absurd." My further examination was NOT some kind of an admission of any kind of mistake on my part, as you seem to think. See comments 16 and 17.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
14. After giving it some more thought, I think I have a better idea of why you find my comparisons to be absurd. Allow me to spell it out for my own clarification, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
You feel that my comparisons are not apt because we're talking about people from a foreign country (Japan) that we were at war with, while my comparisons were about American citizens, and not during a time of war.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
15. Further, you feel that since my comparisons were not during a time of war, those people did not reasonably present a threat until they did what they did.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
16. In response to this, I say that we AREN'T talking about people from a foreign country that we were at war with. As I've conceded before, (see comment #10 - oops, just realized I used that number twice. I mean the first #10), we're talking about American citizens.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
17. We're talking about American citizens who happen to be of Japanese descent. That's the essence of our argument, it would seem. You seem to believe that a person's ancestry in and of itself poses a threat. I disagree, and further claim that this thinking is racist (or unethically discriminatory and prejudiced, if you refuse to see "Japanese" as a race).
Nicole7871 2 years ago
3. And anyone who has seen pictures of the camps knows that they were far from fun places to be. Depending on which camp you were in, multiple families would have to live in one room with a handful of cots and only wood scraps to try and patch the numerous holes in the walls. Bathrooms were often communal. Not only did they have to shower together (tolerable, if a bit embarrassing), but they also had to poo together because the toilets lacked partitions. Yay civil rights!
Nicole7871 2 years ago
2. As to your assertion that the camps were places where people were provided for better than many at the time, let me go ahead and compare this to something thats very similar. Prison. It provides you with food, a gym, a library, and even classes, all on the taxpayers dime. You dont have to do anything if you dont want to. Now, do YOU want to be in prison for no reason? I certainly dont. Theres no way to justify taking away the civil rights of a whole group of people who are innocent.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
As to the idea that people refused to leave the camps because they were these wonderlands of awesomeness, clearly you have not actually READ the book you quote. They didnt stay because the camps were great places to be. They stayed for a variety of very complex reasons including, but not limited to:
a) they had nowhere to go. They had lost their jobs and homes. b) They were reluctant to go back to communities where they would be met with even MORE racism than they had seen before.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
c) At least in the case of farewell, though Im sure it applies to many others as well, the people were disillusioned and depressed. The father of that family had lost his faith in himself to be the protector and leader of the family and fallen into alcoholism. Relying on his leadership (or lack thereof) the family stayed for lack of options.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
And d) after having been in the camps for so long, many simply didnt want to leave because they were afraid of change. It happens a lot with long-time prisoners and kidnap victims (often referred to as Stockholm syndrome)
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Id also like to address some comments you made to me on some other videos. I would have been happy to let them go on the grounds of their utter ridiculousness, but since you have engaged me once again, I will respond. This is in response to your assertions that the JA could leave whenever they wanted to, and that they didnt want to (you cite Farewell to Manzanar) and that the camps were dreamlands where people lounged, merrily living a carefree life on the taxpayers dime.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
As to the leave whenever they want claim: Thats a pure lie. They could leave after an extremely arbitrary loyalty hearing (which many did not get), after signing a ridiculous pledge (more on that in a minute), after proving they had somewhere to go (which most did not have), and after proving that they had employment to return to (which most had been forced to leave).
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Recently released government documents show just how arbitrary those loyalty hearings were. Scores were based on things like; if you played baseball, you a good point. If you knew Judo, you get lots of bad points. People who were labeled as disloyal were even barred from returning to the west coast after the war ended.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
The pledges they were required to sign said that they would a) renounce loyalty to the emperor, b) declare loyalty to the US, and c) be willing to fight for the US. This was a big problem for many. If you need it spelled out, here are the problems:
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Most of them were Americans, with no loyalty to the emperor to begin with. They saw the pledge as some kind of trick that would be used later to condemn them, much like the old law joke do you still beat your wife? For those who werent citizens, they refused to sign it because the US refused to let them be citizens, and signing the pledge effectively meant they had NO country, a terrifying prospect to be sure.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
4. Oh, and I should mention that being a Shintoist earned you an automatic mark of "disloyal." So much for "freedom of religion," eh? Let's add that to the already massive list of civil liberties stripped from innocent people.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
For the Japanese their nation and religion were one,. Their emperor was their god
If you were relogious you supported japan and the emperor. A enemy alien
does not have to be convicted of anything to be interned or relocated all countries at war did it including Japan
am220uss 2 years ago
9. Wow. You managed to take the least significant point of all of my posts and center right on it. Good job there. The point of that little rant was that loyalty tests were arbitrary and not an actual reliable test. The people who came up with and administered the tests later admitted that they were not reliable or fair.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
10. As I've said before, your logic that you don't need to be convicted if you're an enemy alien is fine. I still find it borderline unethical, given the fact that asian aliens weren't allowed to nationalize, but that's a much finer line. LIKE I'VE SAID: this doesn't justify the incarceration of American citizens, though.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
35. Your assertion regarding shinto is wrong, like so many of your other wild claims. Shinto is split into two types: state and village. Both types believe in nature "spirits," but state shinto also believes that spirits are all governed by a high God (Kami), who is personified by the Emperor.
Shintoists were rare enough as it was in America in 1940, but state shintoists were practically unheard of.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
In farewell to manzanar the authors father had a shrine to to japan and the emperor
in his living room which he removed only when he was told the FBI wanted to talk with him and he was demoralized because he knew japan was losing the war.
am220uss 2 years ago
43. Re: your comments about "farewell." The father in that story was a Japanese national. For the purpose of our discussion, we have only been talking about American citizens.
And I'm not even going to point out how ridiculous it is to oversimplify a man's staggering depression the way you just did. Oh wait, I just did.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
You missed one point . you stated that the Japanese did not worship the emperor I pointed out the shrine.
am220uss 2 years ago
49. Ah, perhaps in my fairly recent stress on the fact that we're talking about AMERICANS and not nationals, you misunderstood me. I'm sure a certain number of Issei "worshipped" the emperor, but they're irrelevant to a discussion regarding Americans.
I was also pointing out your false claim that being Japanese and religious automatically makes you a worshipper of the Emperor. That's a fairly small percentage of Shinto, and a TINY percentage of eastern religion in general.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Am220, I also fail to see how the actions of people in another country (who have nothing in common with those in the US other than their race) should influence our opinion of 70k americans.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
In hearings, many high-level military officials admitted that they knew full well that the Japanese did not have the capability to bring enough force to bear on the west coast for a full-on invasion.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
1. Now, since I know you've already discounted Munson (for no fathomable reason), I'll provide you with more. Military leaders didn't actually believe large scale invasion or attack was possible by Japan, which is why they denied DeWitt's request for more troops on the west coast before pearl harbor. General Clark, testified (in court, so there are records if you want to look them up) that the notion of serious attack from Japan was ridiculous, but said air-raids were possible.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Here comes where I start copy-pasting my own comments because you keep making me repeat myself. For future reference, anything I say with a number in front of it is a repost. In response to your "threat of invasion" theory, that has been debunked by many many historians.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Well, they're not all reposts. Rather, many of them will be reposts, but (when I remember to) I will also number my new posts in case you make me repeat them later.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Ah, you're back. Don't bother apologizing for accusing neko of blocking you or anything, since that would be the decent thing to do. Or for accusing her of being me.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
The ethnic Japanese living in the Philipines assisted the japanese army
when they invaded a few days after pearl Harbor. The relocation was a response to the threat of invasion.
am220uss 2 years ago
Japanese living in the Philippines when war broke out assisted the japanese army
when the invaded a few days after The japanese attack that started the war.
am220uss 2 years ago
Well, it looks like that's finally over. Since I don't want my last, seemingly random, comment to be the first thing on your video, I'll let this be: Good job on the video, Neko! It's absolutely stunning, and you deserve all the praise you've been getting for it. I suppose any piece of art this good is going to attract its fair share of crazies, so don't let it get you down. Love you!
Nicole7871 2 years ago
So, FYI: since you seem bound and determined to harp on the same irrelevent arguments, insults, and utterly ridiculous conspiracy theories, I'm taking a new tactic. You've made me repeat many things and have failed to address most of my points. So now whenever you post something, I'm just going to repost unless you've brought up something new and relevent. I'm going to number those reposts, so that if I have to repeat them AGAIN, I can just say "see comment #__"
Nicole7871 2 years ago
No. I refuse to play your little games anymore. I've cited several professional historians and you have given me no compelling reason not to believe what they say. You see, that's their job. THEY do the research, then compile it in these handy little things called "papers." Sometimes they even put those papers together to make something called a "book."
70 years of historians and scholars support me. You're going to need to give me some reason to dismiss them other than "they're liberals"
Nicole7871 2 years ago
This is a test . it appears I have been blocked from posting comments.
am220uss 2 years ago
In case you continue commenting today, just a general announcement: I have a test to study for, so no more commenting today. I'll be back tomorrow. Just FYI so you don't think I'm running away from you or anything.
Feel free to use this time to respond to my dozens of comments you have left unanswered.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
And another thing: You citing the niihau incident actually weakens your argument. That is, your argument that it indicates that the JA were likely to be treasonous. Consider this: The Niihau incident took place in Hawaii. One could safely say, then, that the JA involved have the most in common with other JA in Hawaii. There was no en masse internment of JA in Hawaii. There were also no other occurrances of treason. Which proves that the niihau incident was an isolated incident.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
All of my sources, also, have books that were extensively peer-reviewed and factchecked before publication. Lowman and Malkin did not.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
So far your refusal to accept my sources (what few you've chosen to address) has been based on (paraphrased) "they were lying," "clearly JA pressured them into saying that," "historians are biased liberal liars" and "they're just having some kind of knee-jerk OMGRACISM! reaction." Essentially, the last 70 years of academia, history, legislation, and government has been one vast conspiracy.
I refuse to accept your conspiracy theory unless you can give me some kind of actual, provable fact.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Well, I suppose I would have to concede if you could somehow prove every single individual JA was a traitor. But I think things like the 442nd and numerous personal accounts pretty effectively prevent that possibility.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I'd like you to keep in mind that I'm presenting a lot of these facts right now in an effort to expose your lies. As I've stated before (I seem to be saying that a lot lately..) I don't personally believe that ANY amount of evidence would have been sufficient to justify punishing people for having the nerve to be born to Japanese parents in America.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If you're STILL not convinced the MAGIC cables are invalid as a justification for the internment, I invite you to read the Historians' Committee for Fairness statement about Malkin's book. It denounces her book (and thus, all of your arguments) as biased, distorted, and historically inaccurate. It's also signed by 40 prominent historians and researchers. The statement particularly harps on Malkin's use of MAGIC as justification.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I dont care what you denounce , your opinion means nothing to me as i have proven you wrong many times. Please find just one historical fact from that ime that shows there was strong indication that the japanese Americans would not assist the japanese if given the opportunity. FDR had to be certain because just one spy could have been responsible for the death of thousands. Do not point to the 442 RCT
as its formation was not until long after the relocation and FDRs order .
am220uss 2 years ago
How about I point to all the hundreds of JA who were already serving in the army?
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Also, I'm not asking you to rely on my opinion when I denouce your one source and other authors with your views. As stated, I'm asking you to rely on entire committees filled with prominent scholars and historians. That's why I'm providing you with these sources. So that you won't have to rely on my opinion.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
So, to sum up what you've told me, then taking into account my adjustments of your numbers based on actual statistics, you're basing your opinion of over 70,000 people on the actions of 3. That's .0004% of the population. Not exactly a good indication of a pattern, by any professional standard.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I'd also like to note that 2 of the main people who had access to the MAGIC decrypts, McCloy and Stimson, initially opposed the internment, and even when they finally reluctantly agreed, they never cited MAGIC as a motivator. DeWitt was the biggest proponent for the internment, and he did not have access. He was also notoriously racist, and there's ample proof if you need it.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
whoops, I really should read back through comments before I rush into new ones. Sorry, it seems I did indeed ask for evidence of Japanese American wrongdoing, rather than espionage. My bad. Though perhaps what I should have asked for is one example of Japanese American wrongdoing which is enough to justify interning over 70k Americans or indicate a pattern. On that note, I also have yet to find any evidence that anyone in the Tachibana spy ring was American rather than a Japanese national.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Now you are forced to say sorry again.You have been proven wrong many
timesyet continue with these absurd arguements. Harada killed himself because a rather large hawiian was about to tear him apart. your suggestion
he did it out of remorse is absurd.
am220uss 2 years ago
How can you claim to know what was going through a dead man's head? Really? If this were not an isolated incident, you might be able to assertively claim it wasn't remorse. But this is not the case.
And at least I have owned up to my handful of flubs (which have not been nearly on the scale of your mistakes, which you have yet to own up to)
Nicole7871 2 years ago
My apologies are not "forced." I chose to offer them because I believe that owning up to one's mistakes is the right thing to do. You've yet to own up to the many mistakes of yours I've pointed out. You've also yet to apologize for repeatedly attacking me personally, indirectly though most of those attacks were phrased.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I'd also like to point out that my apologies have largely been for insults, misspellings, and misremembering my own comments. Hardly on the scale of your mistakes, which cover insults, misrepresentation of facts, outright lies, outrageously broad generalizations, and a constant inability to spell or use proper grammar.
If my apologies are only going to be used to further attack me, I'm more than happy to retract them.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
You are kidding again. You started by saying no Germans and italians were interned. since then i have educated
you I can point to as many historians
and writers as you can and I got you started doing research ,although one sided. So why not just give me historical facts. No opinion, as the opinion of these
liberal academics sitting safe in their ivory tower putting forth their opinion 60 years after the fact means nothing to me. .
am220uss 2 years ago
Excuse me, I assumed (silly me!) you would know what I meant by that. I meant no italians or germans were incarcerated en masse. I'd like you to point to some of these historians you keep talking about. You have yet to mention any, and I have yet to find any who aren't considered unprofessional hacks.
I have given you many facts, if you'd bothered check my sources. These sources that you discount, for no discernable reason, cited primary sources. Check their sources if you don't believe me.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
What facts? If you have any from that time period I wish you would put them forth on their own not burried in opinion.
am220uss 2 years ago
I have never claimed to be a historian. That's why I keep pointing you to historians for the facts. I copy them here, and you demand to know the source. I tell you, and you claim it's just opinion. You know where I'm getting my information. If you think they're lies, you can feel free to check the sources. What do you want from me? I can't scan in and post every damn document I'm quoting.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
I would like you to read your sources pick out the historical fact from that time period if they provide any, then post them in a stand alone post that does not contain opinion.
am220uss 2 years ago
If you bothered to read my sources you would more fully understand why MAGIC is not a good justification for anyone, and shouldn't be for you either. They also address the Tachibana spy ring. Since you refuse to read anything I point you to, let me quote the article directly:
Nicole7871 2 years ago
"Hawaii spy rings is largely beside the point, since those were shut down many months before Pearl Harbor. Indeed, it was precisely the success of American intelligence to defuse the threat that gave the FBI such confidence that any danger could be dealt with."
Nicole7871 2 years ago
"Hawaii spy rings is largly beside the point" Is just an opinion off just another U.S. bashing liberal. I want historical fact
am220uss 2 years ago
Your sources are just people giving their opinion. If you have a book that has actual historical fact i will read it but there is a good chance i already have. Academics
who agree with me are censored by their piers. if one dared support the governments position they would be called racist and driven out of their job.
am220uss 2 years ago
All of the sources I cited are from people who have done extensive research through government records and have interviewed internees. If you'd bothered to read what they have to say, you'd realize that they regularly cite court records, government memos, and other legitimate primary sources. Their writings are extremely educated analysis and summary of their findings.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
People like Lowman and Malkin, however, have been denounced mainly because of their refusal to actually do any real research before publishing, or flagrantly misrepresenting what research they did do.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
If you need more specific examples, I point you to several books: Eric Muller wrote "American Inquisition" after having spent months poring over recently released goverment documents regarding the "loyaly" tests. Greg Robinson wrote "By order of the President" after doing extensive research on goverment records, official communications, and personal testimonies regarding FDR's motivations.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
David Neiwert wrote "Strawberry days" after interviewing dozens of internees as well as reviewing government documents, which he freely cites. I can go on, if you would like.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
For the record, of the several historians' negative critiques I have read of Malkin, not a single one accused her of personally being a racist. The closest they got was criticizing her refusal to take the prominent racism at the time into account, even briefly.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Magic information is enough for me but if you want more try researching the Tachibana spy ring. .
am220uss 2 years ago
I'd like to point you to a direct quote from General DeWitt (apologies for misspelling his name earlier), who knew of the tachibana spy ring and the niihau incident. This is a quote from an official memorandum regarding the military neccessity of the internment.
"The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken"
I hope the utter ridiculousness of his logic is not lost on you either.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
It took 7 mo. for another plane to be captured. In the Nihau incident by assisting the japanese pilot in removing the machine guns from the aircraft and subsequent actions Harada and friends engaged in armed insurection and treason. This incident also gave a good indication of how other emotional japanese americans might behave. You are a good indication of this. There could have been as many as 20000 of these emotional Japanese tratiors that when given a chance would choose to side with japan
am220uss 2 years ago
How am I an example of this? I'm supporting Americans, not Japanese. I have said AGAIN AND AGAIN that I never claimed all Japanese people were innocent. Just that a lot of AMERICANS (not to mention innocent immigrants who weren't allowed to become American until much later) suffered needlessly due to racial prejudice.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Also, you show your real colors (no pun intended) with this comment. You're coming to conclusions about a huge population of people based on the actions of 2. 2 people who didn't have anything in common with most of those interned except their race.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
Oh, and if this number is including the number of nissei who repatriated after the internment (which STILL wouldn't bring the number up to 20,000 according to any statistics I can get a hold of), that's kind of a "no, duh" situation. They weren't doing it to fight for Japan or show solidarity and loyalty, or any other reason. They were doing it to get the hell out of a country that had blatantly discriminated against them for decades and then IMPRISONED them for no discernible reason.
Nicole7871 2 years ago
let me make that clear for you. I say you are a example of a emotional japanese
because of your previous statments and name calling. Your tried to use emotion
as a defense of Harada.
am220uss 2 years ago