Daniele Barioni - Quello che tacete - La fanciulla del West

[Tiggersalt79]

In Jazz they call it "quoting." Take a cool phrase, turn it into a completely different song. That's bad? To call that "plagiarism" is just to get caught up in rhetoric.

When writers adopt someone else's phrase, they don't stop the book to tell you where they got it. It's up to the intelligent reader to recognize it and appreciate it.

[theLabradorite]

I like webber, but I won't lie he obviously stole it. There are much simpler melody and rarely similar ones ever come up

[scumblejack]

Lloyd Webber also stole the end of "Recondita Armonia" from "Tosca" by Puccini, for the end of "Til I Hear You Sing" from "Love Never Dies".

[greyztone]

@scumblejack Hmmm, i know what you mean, but it's stretching to call that a steal. We're dealing with such simple chord progressions and melodies here, that it's hard to draw a line. Composers will inevitably explore similar material. I'd call the example in this video a 'steal', intentional or otherwise. Your example I'm not so sure about. It's certainly not identical.

[punkypenguin321]

The thing about composition is that a musical phrase can only go in so many directions and still function as a musical line. Plus this melody is fairly simple so it isn't shocking that other composers come up with similar ones.

References:

being a classical composer myself.

[g00nther]

There are similarities. Given the limitations of the musical scale, inadvertent "plagiarism" is going to be a possibility. Or he may have deliberately lifted. It doesn't matter to me; most composers are influenced by others' compositions. Both pieces are beautiful music.

[sirmercutio99]

Puccini is the king of soaring, heart wrenching melodies.

[Shokon]

Whether webber stole it or not can't truly be decided. All composers are influenced by each other. Look at all the baroque and classical composers.

[mwall444]

While I believe Webber's theft of the motif is evident, I do not believe we can know if such theft was intentional.Webber may have attended this opera, internalized this motif, and then employed it in his Music of the Night, thinking the motif's beauty to be his own. An example of this may be found with John Williams in his Imperial March. Williams is famous for using Romantic-era leitmotifs in his works, notably in Star Wars. Compare his Imperial march to the popular "Swan Lake" suite.

[sliver394]

Honestly, I highly doubt that Andrew Lloyd Webber intentionally stole this melody. What if he hasn't even seen or heard this Opera? Is it really impossible for two people to think of a similar musical idea? It's not note for note anyway. Look at George Harrison, he had almost the same idea for one of his songs as an old 50s song, doesn't mean he stole it. Composers all know that figuring out whether a melody in your head is already taken or is yours is really hard.

[StillLifeWithMangoes]

@sliver394 webber is certainly knowledgeable about music, I think for anyone classically educated this would be a well known opera.

[operacrackers]

I'm not supporting ALW for doing this, but has anyone considered that for someone who studied music and knows HOW to compose skillfully such as he, maybe he unintentionally took down melodies that were simply in his head?

[MrJohnthedoe]

thumbs up if wikipedia brought you here

[nhcrama]

Who cares about whether Andrew Lloyd Webber stole it or not? This is beautiful music (and beautifully sung music too).

[rexglensy]

Actually, the Puccini estate and ALW reached a settlement as to the plagiarism claim. I doubt ALW would have settled if he had not plagiarized. This is plagiarism pure and simple -- melody, harmony, rhythm, are all the same (as well as tempo and dynamic). Not even a close call.

[OwnYouScum]

There are just 3 repeated notes sung over 3 repeated chords. Yes, they are the same in this and Music of the Night. But really now. 3 chords/notes repeated twice! Are we going to accuse people of plagiarising every time they use the 12 bar blues, or cycle of 5ths, or the same 3/6 consecutive notes as some other piece of music? Goodness...

[DeborahIsreal]

@OwnYouScum I'm all for just taking a few notes (Just ask Pachelbel and his cannon in D), but this was the same rhythm, the same melody, the same accompanyment (with the same voicing), the same time signature. And that's a big deal.

[PhanPhanPhanPhanPhan]

There's such little resemblance between the two melodies, that the accusation of plagiarism is rediculous.

[x3tiamobella]

is there somewhere i could find the lyrics? not necessarily translated, but anything will do

[limegreen413]

@x3tiamobella Quello che tacete me l'ha dettoil cor

Quandoil braccio v'offersi al la danza con me

Controil miopetto vi sentii tremar

E provai una gioia strana una nuova pace che dir non so

[rockerchick1378]

-.- Music or tunes can be in one's memory without them fully remembering it. Who's to say that ALW knowingly lifted a few lines from this peice? Maybe this is just the tune that came to him when he was writing the song, and he didn't realize where it had came from until it was brought to is attention. Really, we've heard one side of the story, how much have we heard of Mr. Lloyd Webber's side?

[baracine]

@rockerchick1378

Not much. Because the Puccini lawsuit was settled out of court. If you go to Wikipedia, however, you will hear about many other instances of plagiarism in the career of Webber. The man doesn't have any original musical idea, except whatever comes from a sugar rush after a rum enema. To him, it the orchestra swells, that's emotion. Failing that, he crashes a chandelier in the audience. He is vulgar and pretentious and continually pilfering.

[jimmycurry01]

I was curious to hear the similarity between this and The Music of the Night, and I can definitely hear the line that he lifted quite clearly.

[aeg9297]

0:42 through 0:55 is very similar to "Music of the Night" but they are different songs by a long shot

[pandasthumb]

@aeg9297

"by a long shot"?

hmm... those lines sound nearly identical to me. The Puccini estate thought so as well. They filed suit against Webber accusing him of plagiarism. The suit was settled out of court and details were not released to the public.

[mauiboynokaoi]

@aeg9297 Agreed. If I had a dollar for every song with similar phrases...

[Jokanaan]

Somehow I think Puccini would find all this amusing, given the fact that a lot of Butterfly was, shall we say, "inspired" by Debussy.

Bottom line, comparing Puccini and Webber is (to paraphrase the words of another great artist) like comparing champagne and cognac. No--Coca Cola!

[ppgppgppgppg]

Common people, if we are going to focus on analyzing who is stealing from who we will NEVER find away to enjoy music. Yes, the climax part does use the same pitch (alghouth in different key), but we see this everywhere. Please just enjoy the music and stop attacking their creators.

[rovingeye5]

ppgppgppgppg: not attacking the creators- I like "Sir" Andrew Lloyd Webber's music- particularly a few "numbers" from Sunset Blvd.- Let's say some contemporary music is "reminiscent" of older music, intentionally or not!

[wickedphant0m]

I heard one 2 measure long segment that sounded like part of Music of the Night...I HARDLY think that qualifies as "stealing" the song from Puccini.

[rovingeye5]

I guess everyone is speaking about how this aria sounds like the music from Phantom of the Opera by Andrew Lloyd Webber- and there are are some similarities but remember even Stravinsky said he "stole" from Mozart- also I find John Williams' theme from Star Wars reminds me of one of the themes in Puccini's Manon Lescaut.

[iduefoscari]

Yes -Rovingeye there are some similarities between "Music of the Night "and" Quello che tacete" a bit like monozygoticTwins.Also your referal to John Williams and Star Wars.Have you ever listened to any of the Bruckner symphonies?Start with the Sixth.Here you will find embryonic Lawrence of Arabia"" Doctor Zhivago"" The Big Country".For the John Williams or Hans Zimmer maybe try the seventh or eight symphonies . But the difference between these and ALW is that the twins are not identical.

[rovingeye5]

iduefoscari: I assume you're a big Verdi fan with that name- thanks for the suggestion to listen to the Bruckner symphonies, 6,7 & 8. I'll check them out! Molto grazie! By the way, "Tu, tu amore, tu" is the aria from the love duet in  Puccini's Manon Lescaut that contains the "star wars" theme- it's toward the end of the duet

[iduefoscari]

The truth is apart from "Music of the night" and one other tune, which is also "questionable" in its origin the rest of the Phantom score is fourth rate Gilbert and Sullivan and that is being generous !

[TheEnoculator]

Webber is a hack, that's all he is. No matter how you put it, he still stole from Puccini. Music of the night is more popular among the masses because of the advertisement Phantom got. Opera music is a niche interest in itself, I don't need Phantom to appreciate this beautiful aria.

[brahmscollagiova]

Bravo, voce niente male

[gordonl]

Llloyd Weber clearly lifted a few lines from this for Music Of The Night in Phantom of the Opera

[Belcore14]

Agreed.. it's so obvious.

[tikala2000]

lol, no wonder Puccini's estate sued.

[MaskedLion]

ALW. Can we say HACK?!

[evertime492]

what?? a few??? overstatement, its only the "silently the senses, abandoned their denfences" line, other wise, nothing else

[wizard9a9]

ALW must have done something right... because his is a hit, and this one people only know about from reading the wikipedia article for Music of the Night.

[bdmusik]

wizard9a9, I'd encourage you to pick up a music history book, look for an ALW chapter, and then tell me who's the bigger hit. Puccini's impact on opera and classical music might not really be seen as important to popular "arts" these days, but where did Rent come from? Where did Miss Saigon get its inspiration? I suppose it depends on your definition of "hit."

[wizard9a9]

"hit" as in "more popular (i.e. famous) in today's society". Sure, Puccini did a lot of great work, those musicals you mentioned are indeed based on his operas, and his impact was probably greater than that of ALW's.

My point is that in terms of *this* particular aria in direct comparison the ALW's Music of the Night, ALW wins. And I stand by my comment that most people are directed to this video from wikipedia. Myself included.

[dan144556]

I'd love to know in what way you think "Sir" Andrew's version is better than the original...

[ShawDAMAN]

He wins in what way? In that "music of the night" is better known to the public? True, but that doesn't make it better. I happen to greatly prefer the "original."

In the grand scheme of music I consider Webber to be dwarfed by Puccini (and Verdi, Donizetti etc) but to be fair they are different animals. THere's a difference between "popera/stage musicals" and *real* opera.

[dga471]

The fact that you use the statement "most people are directed to this video from wikipedia" to justify a statement about musical value really stretches your credibility. What you're doing is merely repeating the argument: if it's more well known and popular, it's better. Something which bdmusik had tried to refute. All Lloyd Webber did was "steal" parts of the melody, making it more accessible to the general public, but not necessarily better. In fact I would think the music's a bit compromised.

[dga471]

In fact I think Puccini's still more popular and well known than Lloyd Webber. People are still crazy about him 100 years after most of his works were written. Hundreds of musical textbooks devote tens of pages just for him. Composers learn and even "steal" from him. How can one be sure we'll still be listening to Phantom of the Opera in 2110? Lloyd Weber might have been relegated to a lonely page of wikipedia by then, overshadowed by some more popular musical composer with a "greater hit"...

[iduefoscari]

Actualy bdmusic alot of the best music from Miss Saigon originates from the Sacristans early "tunes" from Tosca!!

[schrire39]

@bdmusik mmm, I'm not convinced by your argument re: "Rent" and "Miss Saigon" They simply used the same source materials as Puccini ( the Murger novel and the Belasco play respectively) but I don't think you can say they are deeply influenced by Puccini musically (not counting Rent's brief musical quote of La Boheme- clearly done with a "wink")

[bdmusik]

You make a fair point, but I'm not totally wrong. No, Boublil/Schoenberg and Larson didn't use Puccini's style. My point was that they updated his works in a sense. It's not like the modern versions were created in a vacuum where they were unaware of Puccini. The operatic succeses had at least some commercial influence on the modern versions. It's like Disney's Aida. Average audiences will go to a musical based on a Verdi opera but could care less about a "scenario by Auguste Mariette."

[bdmusik]

Also, I can't really believe it's just a coincidence that both Rent and Miss Saigon are virtually sung-through musicals. The composers and lyricists clearly had the operatic conventions of recitative and aria/chorus in mind when they created their versions (i.e. Rent's "Tune Ups," Miss Saigon's "Room 317" leading into "Now That I've Seen Her," etc.). And I realize that Puccini didn't really use pure recitative, but he had moments that were like it.

[schrire39]

@bdmusik you may have a point suggesting that some musicals are easier to as a result of people already knowing the subject matter...

BUT the through sung musical is certainly not "opera" in the classical sense (ie: the composer is not the only central creative artist &story/lyrics are as equally important as the music) if you're looking for hard, concrete and immediate influences forget Puccini and try recent musicals JC Superstar/Evita/ p'raps Sweeney Todd...

[schrire39]

@bdmusik you may have a point suggesting that some musicals are easier to market as a result of people already knowing the subject matter...

BUT the through sung musical is certainly not "opera" in the classical sense (ie: the composer is not the only central creative artist &story/lyrics are as equally important as the music) if you're looking for hard, concrete and immediate influences forget Puccini and try recent musicals JC Superstar/Evita/ p'raps Sweeney Todd...

[iduefoscari]

@schrire39 I saw Miss Saigon many years ago now but I still remember the similarity of the early music sung by the Sacristan in Tosca to one of the main themes in Miss Saigon.

[Robeykr]

@gordonl You have GOT to be kidding! I hear no resemblance between the two melodies.

[baracine]

@gordonl

The Puccini estate could also have sued for the "borrowing" of a few lines of Liu's aria in "Turandot", at the end of the "musical".