Very interesting video. I'm an atheist and am not even sure Jesus actually existed. However, it's not far-fetched to think that a tyrant like Pilate may have considered Jesus to be a rabble-rouser and decided to have him executed without consulting the Sanhedrin at all. In such a case, crucifixion would definitely have been used. I guess it all depends on who you think executed Jesus, the Jewish priests, or the Roman authorities.
Side note: The difference in context and phrasing. Hung from a tree and hung on a tree. You hang a picture on a wall, but you hang a light from the ceiling> LOL Ha ha only because you seem so bent and critical on the syntax of others.
If you look deeper into the culture of that time you will find that a crucifix or a cross was often referred to as a tree as this is what it was made from and even sometimes they would actually crucify them by nailing them to a tree. The Sanhedrin pushed for a crucifixion for Christ as it was a Roman custom for the worst of offenders by punishment of pain and public humiliation. They wanted to make an example of Christ. Pontious Piolet even questioned why Christ deserved such a severe punishment
@KevinJ1live Where outside of the bible were crosses used interchangeably with trees? What evidence of the Sanhedrin's consultation with the Romans do you have? You do know that the gospel portrait of Pilate is far at odds with the historical portrait drawn by Josephus? Pilate was a well-known persecutor of the Jews, and if Jesus had been upsetting Jews, there's no good reason to believe that he would've helped the Jews to execute him.
@TaylorX04 There is the story of the conflict over the INRI inscription, the Sanhedrin climing he wasn't a king, but just claimed to be king, and Pilot saying, 'Leave it as it stands'. This would seem to show the Pilot had a political agenda to crush Jewish nationalism, but found the Sanhedrin useful to a point. If we are to believe the 'I find no fault etc' story, and them a Roman execution I think we need to know more. Could you present your analysis? Your scholarship seems good.
@KevinJ1live - Tell me, what would be more important to the religious authorities? To follow God's commands, or to use a heathen Roman form of punishment to make an example of someone? God commanded the stoning of blasphemers. What, the Sanhedrin thought they knew better and that God was willing to make an exception in this one case?
@KevinJ1live - The idea that people were crucified on trees is more a product of trying to reconcile the Bible passages about "hanging on a tree" than it is with actual history. Crucifying by cross was easier - they'd nail the body to the cross while it was on the ground, then raise the whole thing, rather than try to hold a body up to the object they were nailing it to. Golgotha, incidentally, where Jesus was supposedly put, had no trees.
uhm...What's the word? uhm...Poetry! Yes that's it! Oh and the wonderful language that is Greek. Xulon is used in all three synoptics to refer to the staves that those who arrested Jesus were carrying (they werent carrying trees). It refers in Acts 16 to the stocks that Paul and Silas were locked in in the Philippian jail (they werent locked in trees). So it seems that Xulon was also used to refer broadly to things made out of wood as well as to actual trees.
@judaismforpilipino LOL. I jumped out early because it looked like typical religious claptrap. I didn't notice that ratings were enabled and that they were really high. That would have been a dead giveaway that it was an Atheist video. Sorry, heh.
I think that both Akhenaten and Jesus were actually preaching atheism, but later corrupted into a god. Akhenaten worshipped the sun. It has also been stated that christianity got it's roots from pagan sun worship. The Magi who were probably astrologers. The xian cross (ankh) may symbolize a rejection of the Egyptian pantheon, which were the gods of Akhenaten's father Amenhotep III (Solomon). It is believed by some that Amenhotep's queen Tiye was the Queen of Sheba.
Oh I see someone below me brought up the same thing. All we'd have to do is find out the words for "tree" and "wood" in the original language, problem solved. Anyway, it wouldnt matter to me if the cross was referred to as a tree or as wood, because it wouldnt change all the other contradictions.
ok. It`s long time ago i spent time in the bible, but what i remember is that both things happened to him. He hanged himself and the rope snapped or the tree broke and he went down the cliff...?
Out of all of these videos, this is the only one with a point that christians may have an explanation for. Is it possible that the words for "tree" and "wood" were the same, or that they referred to the cross as one of these words? Because if that were the case, whether hanging by rope from the neck, or by nails from the hands, the word "hanging" would still fit.
Wow... Christians don't even know how their "messiah" died. I'll remember this and ask my mother the next time the Bible comes up in conversation. ^__^
Paul preached a crucified Messiah and the gospels, all of which postdate his letters, simply provided an historical context for Paul's literary character: from a baptism by a well-known holy man of the period to the requisite trial before a Roman procurator.
In fact,
Paul's Jesus was resurrected long before Mark's Jesus was brought before Pilate.
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Lol, this guy tries to quote the Bible. "He was hung on a tree..." Well of course. Logically wood is from a tree. So he hung on the cross, as is written. If the NT had never mentioned a cross then it would have been a tree, but this was another meaning 4 the cross. Also in the OT it was written "He was peirced for us.' This was nailed to the cross and pierce with the spear.
I do quote the bible, retard, several times in the video. I openly said I could understand the connection between a tree and a cross, but you can't just assume it's the same thing without evidence illustrating that it is. Where is your evidence that a tree was just another name for a cross in the NT? Why don't you answer the last question in my video too?
Also, the OT passage you're referring to is from Psalm 22, which was poetry not prophecy. Try to understand your bible better.
You need to read the question again. Even though "xulon" is the Greek word for wood, clubs, stocks, and trees, as you say, is it ever printed as "cross" in any passage of the NT? Please cite the passages if you think you know them. Also, why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way, as I asked at the end of the video?
"is it ever printed as "cross" in any passage of the NT?"
The base verb "xestes" (timber) appears 20 times in the NT. All of which when used in context mean wood,trees,clubs and stocks.Xulon referred to things made out of wood as well as to actual trees...simple.
"why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way"
With crosses being made out of wood I hope you can see the connection.
"why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way, as I asked at the end of the video?"
An apple a day keeps the doctor away. What does that mean Taylor?Figures of speech.
For you to say that Jesus was probably hang on face value based on what the apostles were telling the people is laughable. Jesus was quite literally hanging from the cross,made of wood,likened to a tree,which brought a curse. Get it?
Actually as a Christian I remember asking my pastor similar questions. Answers to these questions have never been fully answered. I have my doubts that Jesus fulfills all the old testiment prophesy even some of the most obvious ones and this isn't one of them.
Good job pointing to the Deuteronomy passage. I think it can be quite rationally concluded that the NT passages indeed refer to the execution method from Deuteronomy, which cannot be crucifixion, because there was not crucifixion during the time Deuteronomy was supposedly(And probably actually as well) written.
I had always looked at the crucifixion as a standard way the romans took care of people accused of treason (like Spartacus and his buddies).
According to Josephus, Pilate was Roman enough to nail someone on a cross for a rumor that he was challenging Roman authority. Ehrman figures that Judas's betrayal was just telling someone that JC claimed to be king. 24 hours later, problem solved.
However, your interpretation is equally fascinating and worthy of further study. Thanks!
Taylor, I love the way you present you're videos. I know this isn't your thing, but after you've officially finished your series. Go and make some video's on Global Warming. I'd like to see how you would present it. Your methods would be challenging to apply to Global Warming.
You know, I used to believe global warming was a myth too, but potholer54 is doing an excellent job of proving that it's not. In fact, there is more evidence for global warming than most of what I argue in my videos, because we're talking about science instead of history and textual criticism.
No, I meant as a supportive not a deniable video. I don't feel like Global Warming was a myth. Sorry for the confusion. I should have been more clear.
I don't actually see why this is important. So he might've been hung rather than crucified... doesn't really matter either way, it's just the fine detail. He might never even have existed! What I find more annoying is that Christianity today is based on the teaching of Paul, & as you said in the video, he never met Jesus. He moved away completely from the Jewish tradition, especially in his teachings of an afterlife from where today's idea of Heaven comes from
I just checked the Vulgata Clementina Latin bible text, and it uses "lignum" in those places where the KJV uses "tree". Now, "lignum" is not a tree, but rather firewood or wood tissue. Tree would be "arbor". I wonder what "ἐπὶ ξύλου" (in the koiné Greek text) really means. The Martin Luther German bible uses "Holz", meaning "wood", just as the Vulgata.
I would also doubt that there can be any reason to make up a cruxifiction, given that this was considered extremely humiliating
The Greek word used for tree in Acts 5:30, Galatians 3:13, and the other verses is "ξύλου", which is also used in Relevation to refer to the tree of life. Another form, "ξύλων", translates to "clubs" in several passages, but neither word is ever used for a cross. The Greek word for cross is "σταυρῷ".
If crucifixion was symbolic even before Jesus was crucified, there could certainly be reason to make it up. Symbolism goes a long way in any religion.
"ξύλων" (Xylon) seems to be the nominative case. It is usually translated as "Wood", think of the xylophone. Other translations I found included in the first place wood, firewood, but also the gallows, the cross and the tree of life. "Tree" is "δένδρον", dendron, think of dendrochronology...
The prevailing meaning of "xylon" seems to bee "wood", not tree. But of course, I am not a Greek scholar. Are you?
No, I'm not a Greek scholar either. I'd agree with you that xulon derives from "wood", and as I've said before, I could understand if there is a relationship between tree and cross, but I still have yet to see one other than in etymology. Do you know of a verse where something like xulon is used specifically in a reference to the cross?
The problem is that we have a bit of circular deduction here. Those dictionaries which list "cross" and "tree of life" as possible meanings, the quotes they provide are the texts of the new testament.
There is an interesting online resource called "Greek Word Study Tool", which links each word to dictionary entries and quotes. Again, some expertise in Koinē Greek would still be indispensable to put things into context. So the safest assumption is that xylon is wood, neither tree nor cross.
Sadly, that's exactly what a lot of apologists say, lol.
Hanging from a tree is kind of like hanging on a cross too! Except.... one has a noose around your neck, and the other has your hands and feet nailed to wooden beams... but that's not important!
Actually crucifixion generally involved being attached to a stake or crossbeam with rope. I'm pretty sure the idea of being nailed to a crossbeam didn't appear til decades after the time Jesus is supposed to have died. And even then the nails would have to go through the wrists as the nails would rip right out of the hand
I'm not sure I buy the "tied to the cross" thing, especially since passages like John 20:25-27 specifically mention that Jesus had nail wounds in his hands, which Thomas put his fingers into.
No, people definitely were (however, having just read Wikipedia's article (and assuming that's accurate, which is not necessarily a given) it seems nailing was more common than I had been led to believe).
I'm not disputing whether the Bible says that that's what happened to Jesus (but that was the point of your video wasn't it?), but the gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses of Jesus' death, so who's to say? Again though, this is just detail, it doesn't actually matter
I wasn't disputing that some people were tied to crosses, just that there's no reason to think Jesus was (if he existed). If you're able to doubt the accounts of the gospels, why not just doubt the crucifixion altogether?
I don't see it as significant enough to actively doubt it. I didn't start replying to defend the consistency of the Bible, I was just pointing out that your definition/idea of crucifixion wasn't wholly accurate & that this could account for the inconsistency from an objective point of view. I try to keep an objective point of view so that when I do think of an argument against something I'm convinced it's a good one, and your previous videos have them. I just think this one is a bit weak sorry
If it turns out that jesus was hanged (and i am only postulating his existence for the sake of this argument) then christians are gonna have to start wearing and worshipping a noose...catholics will have to come up with a different way to bless themselves. And stigmata sufferers are going to become more interesting...
You do a great job. Thanks for this stuff. Are you familiar with DeistPaladin's work? I would say he is the other antibible scholar on YT that knows his stuff though I don't always agree with his analysis.
Taylor, I have read these passages so many times and never questioned or occurred to me that gosh there may have been an evolution of the crucifixion doctrine, just like some other doctrines of the NT. Thanks for the insight.
What if "hanging on a tree" was just slang or metaphor at the time. Like, "swing", "fry", "ride the lightning", "sleep with the fishes", "catch a bullet", "be put to sleep", "eat a gun", "skydiving without a parachute", "kick the bucket", "take a dirt nap", "pass on", "expire", etc. Translate one of those over 2000 years and across a dozen languages and the details may be misconstrued. Doesn't really matter anyway, that book loses its credibility in the first chapter.
Lol, I think that may be a long time coming. I have read the Qur'an, cover to cover, twice, but I don't consider myself as knowledgeable of it as I am of the bible. Maybe after a while of further study I will be. I kind of like to try and anticipate counterarguments as best I can.
As someone who used to be a Christian, I can tell you that their answer to the "hanging on a tree" question is that it's just another way to say he was crucified.
It doesn't matter what evidence you bring them, they'll stick to that story.
Another great video, once again showing reasons to doubt the Bible and the claims of Christianity. I've enjoyed all the videos in this series and always look forward to the next.
I agree, which is mainly why I ended the video with those two questions. I have no problem accepting that "hanging on a tree" is just a poetic reference to crucifixion, but they also have little than speculation as to why the NT authors would say such a thing. I could understand why Paul would, in connection with the quotation of Deut., but the other mentions of Jesus being hung on a tree just seem to be floating in space, with little contextual purpose.
It seems almost possible that the Yeshua in the Talmud may have had a following of observant and loyal followers, and his execution evolved into the model for Jesus. One mans blasphemer is another man's Rabbi. It's all speculation though. Very nice informative video.
Actually, five disciples of Yeshu are also described in the Talmud, with names like Matthai (Matthew), Thoda (Thomas), and Boni (Bartholomew?). It seems pretty interesting to note such connections.
Reminds me of some of the Jehovah's Witness literature that says Jesus died on a stake and not on a cross.
Paul never even knew Jesus, the gospels were written at least 37 years after Jesus died by men who were not eye witnesses, and some of Paul's letters were written by others. It is easy to see how the story developed a mythological character.
I'm a little shakey on the implications of Galations 6:14, the reference to Jesus' cross implies pretty heavily that Jesus was, in some sense, at least in possession of a cross at one point. Fascinating video otherwise.
Yeah, I had the same thoughts, but it's still a pretty vague passage. Referring to "the cross of our Lord" is not a clear statement that Jesus was crucified, just that he had a cross. It seems similar to Mark 8:34 too, which led me to consider it symbolic.
Very interesting video. I'm an atheist and am not even sure Jesus actually existed. However, it's not far-fetched to think that a tyrant like Pilate may have considered Jesus to be a rabble-rouser and decided to have him executed without consulting the Sanhedrin at all. In such a case, crucifixion would definitely have been used. I guess it all depends on who you think executed Jesus, the Jewish priests, or the Roman authorities.
ianat841 1 week ago
There would be a shit load more atheists if only people actually read their bibles.
justjulie37 1 month ago
Fake crucifixion, false cross.
solynawaz 3 months ago
Side note: The difference in context and phrasing. Hung from a tree and hung on a tree. You hang a picture on a wall, but you hang a light from the ceiling> LOL Ha ha only because you seem so bent and critical on the syntax of others.
KevinJ1live 6 months ago
@KevinJ1live Good thing English syntax is irrelevant to the New Testament's original meaning.
TaylorX04 6 months ago
@KevinJ1live
Maybe the bible was referring to Jesus being "hung" in the manner of Jesus having a huge horse cock???
helltrackrider 5 months ago in playlist Biblical Problems
If you look deeper into the culture of that time you will find that a crucifix or a cross was often referred to as a tree as this is what it was made from and even sometimes they would actually crucify them by nailing them to a tree. The Sanhedrin pushed for a crucifixion for Christ as it was a Roman custom for the worst of offenders by punishment of pain and public humiliation. They wanted to make an example of Christ. Pontious Piolet even questioned why Christ deserved such a severe punishment
KevinJ1live 6 months ago
@KevinJ1live Where outside of the bible were crosses used interchangeably with trees? What evidence of the Sanhedrin's consultation with the Romans do you have? You do know that the gospel portrait of Pilate is far at odds with the historical portrait drawn by Josephus? Pilate was a well-known persecutor of the Jews, and if Jesus had been upsetting Jews, there's no good reason to believe that he would've helped the Jews to execute him.
TaylorX04 6 months ago
@TaylorX04 There is the story of the conflict over the INRI inscription, the Sanhedrin climing he wasn't a king, but just claimed to be king, and Pilot saying, 'Leave it as it stands'. This would seem to show the Pilot had a political agenda to crush Jewish nationalism, but found the Sanhedrin useful to a point. If we are to believe the 'I find no fault etc' story, and them a Roman execution I think we need to know more. Could you present your analysis? Your scholarship seems good.
gamesbok 1 month ago
@KevinJ1live - Tell me, what would be more important to the religious authorities? To follow God's commands, or to use a heathen Roman form of punishment to make an example of someone? God commanded the stoning of blasphemers. What, the Sanhedrin thought they knew better and that God was willing to make an exception in this one case?
mnkittel 6 months ago
@KevinJ1live - The idea that people were crucified on trees is more a product of trying to reconcile the Bible passages about "hanging on a tree" than it is with actual history. Crucifying by cross was easier - they'd nail the body to the cross while it was on the ground, then raise the whole thing, rather than try to hold a body up to the object they were nailing it to. Golgotha, incidentally, where Jesus was supposedly put, had no trees.
mnkittel 6 months ago
I didn't know Chris from Family Guy was so interested in Christianity...
eberner28 7 months ago
Great Deicide tune at the end.
This is the first time I've seen your series. Any Slayer, Venom, or Marduk ahead?
kingquadroon 10 months ago
@kingquadroon Yes to the first two. No Marduk yet.
TaylorX04 10 months ago
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Odin hung on a tree.
FluffyFeralMarmot 10 months ago
clever
gagnashdiak 1 year ago
Great music at the end!
Joosybum 1 year ago
Another excellent video, Taylor.
filmvideogamesbooks 1 year ago
Why does getting killed by hanging warrant cursing? Was it because of angel lust?
Shalek 1 year ago
uhm...What's the word? uhm...Poetry! Yes that's it! Oh and the wonderful language that is Greek. Xulon is used in all three synoptics to refer to the staves that those who arrested Jesus were carrying (they werent carrying trees). It refers in Acts 16 to the stocks that Paul and Silas were locked in in the Philippian jail (they werent locked in trees). So it seems that Xulon was also used to refer broadly to things made out of wood as well as to actual trees.
charliesplinter 1 year ago
Why does my YouTube look different suddenly? And why did it jump from Pat Condell to Bible study on its own? Are the Christians sabotaging YT?
warren52nz 1 year ago
Do you think this is a Christian video? Lol, maybe you need to watch it again...
TaylorX04 1 year ago
@warren52nz hahaha
judaismforpilipino 1 year ago
@judaismforpilipino LOL. I jumped out early because it looked like typical religious claptrap. I didn't notice that ratings were enabled and that they were really high. That would have been a dead giveaway that it was an Atheist video. Sorry, heh.
warren52nz 1 year ago
@warren52nz its ok
judaismforpilipino 1 year ago
I think that both Akhenaten and Jesus were actually preaching atheism, but later corrupted into a god. Akhenaten worshipped the sun. It has also been stated that christianity got it's roots from pagan sun worship. The Magi who were probably astrologers. The xian cross (ankh) may symbolize a rejection of the Egyptian pantheon, which were the gods of Akhenaten's father Amenhotep III (Solomon). It is believed by some that Amenhotep's queen Tiye was the Queen of Sheba.
holio84 1 year ago
did not Judas Iskariot hang himself in a tree?
WritingMotor 1 year ago
It depends which book of the bible you read. In Matthew he hangs himself, but in Acts he falls down from a cliff and "bursts open" at the stomach.
TaylorX04 1 year ago
Oh I see someone below me brought up the same thing. All we'd have to do is find out the words for "tree" and "wood" in the original language, problem solved. Anyway, it wouldnt matter to me if the cross was referred to as a tree or as wood, because it wouldnt change all the other contradictions.
deepelmdesciple 2 years ago
@deepelmdesciple
ok. It`s long time ago i spent time in the bible, but what i remember is that both things happened to him. He hanged himself and the rope snapped or the tree broke and he went down the cliff...?
WritingMotor 1 year ago
Out of all of these videos, this is the only one with a point that christians may have an explanation for. Is it possible that the words for "tree" and "wood" were the same, or that they referred to the cross as one of these words? Because if that were the case, whether hanging by rope from the neck, or by nails from the hands, the word "hanging" would still fit.
deepelmdesciple 2 years ago
Wow... Christians don't even know how their "messiah" died. I'll remember this and ask my mother the next time the Bible comes up in conversation. ^__^
gir908922 2 years ago
Paul preached a crucified Messiah and the gospels, all of which postdate his letters, simply provided an historical context for Paul's literary character: from a baptism by a well-known holy man of the period to the requisite trial before a Roman procurator.
In fact,
Paul's Jesus was resurrected long before Mark's Jesus was brought before Pilate.
Lohitaksha 2 years ago 2
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Lol, this guy tries to quote the Bible. "He was hung on a tree..." Well of course. Logically wood is from a tree. So he hung on the cross, as is written. If the NT had never mentioned a cross then it would have been a tree, but this was another meaning 4 the cross. Also in the OT it was written "He was peirced for us.' This was nailed to the cross and pierce with the spear.
SpiritOfRevelation22 2 years ago
I do quote the bible, retard, several times in the video. I openly said I could understand the connection between a tree and a cross, but you can't just assume it's the same thing without evidence illustrating that it is. Where is your evidence that a tree was just another name for a cross in the NT? Why don't you answer the last question in my video too?
Also, the OT passage you're referring to is from Psalm 22, which was poetry not prophecy. Try to understand your bible better.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
@TaylorX04
"Where is your evidence that a tree was just another name for a cross in the NT?"
I will gladly answer this question for you. Greek word used "xulon" which could mean clubs, cross, stocks, tree, wood.
You're welcome.
charliesplinter 1 year ago
You need to read the question again. Even though "xulon" is the Greek word for wood, clubs, stocks, and trees, as you say, is it ever printed as "cross" in any passage of the NT? Please cite the passages if you think you know them. Also, why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way, as I asked at the end of the video?
TaylorX04 1 year ago
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@TaylorX04
"as you say"
It's a fact. Look it up.
"is it ever printed as "cross" in any passage of the NT?"
The base verb "xestes" (timber) appears 20 times in the NT. All of which when used in context mean wood,trees,clubs and stocks.Xulon referred to things made out of wood as well as to actual trees...simple.
"why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way"
With crosses being made out of wood I hope you can see the connection.
charliesplinter 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TaylorX04
"why do you think the NT authors would have chosen to refer to a cross in such a way, as I asked at the end of the video?"
An apple a day keeps the doctor away. What does that mean Taylor?Figures of speech.
For you to say that Jesus was probably hang on face value based on what the apostles were telling the people is laughable. Jesus was quite literally hanging from the cross,made of wood,likened to a tree,which brought a curse. Get it?
charliesplinter 1 year ago
Actually as a Christian I remember asking my pastor similar questions. Answers to these questions have never been fully answered. I have my doubts that Jesus fulfills all the old testiment prophesy even some of the most obvious ones and this isn't one of them.
ouTandAbOut231 2 years ago
Good job pointing to the Deuteronomy passage. I think it can be quite rationally concluded that the NT passages indeed refer to the execution method from Deuteronomy, which cannot be crucifixion, because there was not crucifixion during the time Deuteronomy was supposedly(And probably actually as well) written.
Akatam0t0ma 2 years ago 2
I had always looked at the crucifixion as a standard way the romans took care of people accused of treason (like Spartacus and his buddies).
According to Josephus, Pilate was Roman enough to nail someone on a cross for a rumor that he was challenging Roman authority. Ehrman figures that Judas's betrayal was just telling someone that JC claimed to be king. 24 hours later, problem solved.
However, your interpretation is equally fascinating and worthy of further study. Thanks!
maddogdelta 2 years ago
Great analysis of biblical scripture. It cannot be taken literally, it is a work of fiction plain and simple.
kd1s 2 years ago
yes its a work of fiction 4 retards
ptica11 2 years ago
Taylor, I love the way you present you're videos. I know this isn't your thing, but after you've officially finished your series. Go and make some video's on Global Warming. I'd like to see how you would present it. Your methods would be challenging to apply to Global Warming.
101194z4life 2 years ago
You know, I used to believe global warming was a myth too, but potholer54 is doing an excellent job of proving that it's not. In fact, there is more evidence for global warming than most of what I argue in my videos, because we're talking about science instead of history and textual criticism.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
No, I meant as a supportive not a deniable video. I don't feel like Global Warming was a myth. Sorry for the confusion. I should have been more clear.
101194z4life 2 years ago
I don't actually see why this is important. So he might've been hung rather than crucified... doesn't really matter either way, it's just the fine detail. He might never even have existed! What I find more annoying is that Christianity today is based on the teaching of Paul, & as you said in the video, he never met Jesus. He moved away completely from the Jewish tradition, especially in his teachings of an afterlife from where today's idea of Heaven comes from
jimi3001 2 years ago
I think this is your best one in the series to date. Great work!
uthamal 2 years ago
I just checked the Vulgata Clementina Latin bible text, and it uses "lignum" in those places where the KJV uses "tree". Now, "lignum" is not a tree, but rather firewood or wood tissue. Tree would be "arbor". I wonder what "ἐπὶ ξύλου" (in the koiné Greek text) really means. The Martin Luther German bible uses "Holz", meaning "wood", just as the Vulgata.
I would also doubt that there can be any reason to make up a cruxifiction, given that this was considered extremely humiliating
dasGagaTier 2 years ago
The Greek word used for tree in Acts 5:30, Galatians 3:13, and the other verses is "ξύλου", which is also used in Relevation to refer to the tree of life. Another form, "ξύλων", translates to "clubs" in several passages, but neither word is ever used for a cross. The Greek word for cross is "σταυρῷ".
If crucifixion was symbolic even before Jesus was crucified, there could certainly be reason to make it up. Symbolism goes a long way in any religion.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
"ξύλων" (Xylon) seems to be the nominative case. It is usually translated as "Wood", think of the xylophone. Other translations I found included in the first place wood, firewood, but also the gallows, the cross and the tree of life. "Tree" is "δένδρον", dendron, think of dendrochronology...
The prevailing meaning of "xylon" seems to bee "wood", not tree. But of course, I am not a Greek scholar. Are you?
dasGagaTier 2 years ago
No, I'm not a Greek scholar either. I'd agree with you that xulon derives from "wood", and as I've said before, I could understand if there is a relationship between tree and cross, but I still have yet to see one other than in etymology. Do you know of a verse where something like xulon is used specifically in a reference to the cross?
TaylorX04 2 years ago
The problem is that we have a bit of circular deduction here. Those dictionaries which list "cross" and "tree of life" as possible meanings, the quotes they provide are the texts of the new testament.
There is an interesting online resource called "Greek Word Study Tool", which links each word to dictionary entries and quotes. Again, some expertise in Koinē Greek would still be indispensable to put things into context. So the safest assumption is that xylon is wood, neither tree nor cross.
dasGagaTier 2 years ago
BTW, cross is "σταυρός" (stavros/stauros) ais in 1 cor. 17 ("ὁ σταυρὸς τοῦ Χριστοῦ"/o staaros tou Christou),
"σταυρῷ" (stavro/stauro) is a flectional form, likely Genitive or Dative case, my guess is Dative, but, again, I don't have any clue of Greek...
dasGagaTier 2 years ago
On a side note: Stavros is obviously a popular Greek male surname today, just as "Cruz" is a popular female Spanish surname. Both mean "cross". I
Imagine naming your kids "gallows", "guillotine", "garotte" or "gas chamber". This Christian obsession with torture and death is just sick...
dasGagaTier 2 years ago 2
What group was that at the end?
castroherman 2 years ago
It's Deicide's song "Once Upon the Cross".
TaylorX04 2 years ago
Wait!!!!!!!!!!!! Crosses are made from trees. That should explain it very accurately. LOL
Dwicker64 2 years ago
Sadly, that's exactly what a lot of apologists say, lol.
Hanging from a tree is kind of like hanging on a cross too! Except.... one has a noose around your neck, and the other has your hands and feet nailed to wooden beams... but that's not important!
TaylorX04 2 years ago
So me a apologists and I will show you some form of an excuse.
Dwicker64 2 years ago
Actually crucifixion generally involved being attached to a stake or crossbeam with rope. I'm pretty sure the idea of being nailed to a crossbeam didn't appear til decades after the time Jesus is supposed to have died. And even then the nails would have to go through the wrists as the nails would rip right out of the hand
jimi3001 2 years ago
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jimi3001 2 years ago
I'm not sure I buy the "tied to the cross" thing, especially since passages like John 20:25-27 specifically mention that Jesus had nail wounds in his hands, which Thomas put his fingers into.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
No, people definitely were (however, having just read Wikipedia's article (and assuming that's accurate, which is not necessarily a given) it seems nailing was more common than I had been led to believe).
I'm not disputing whether the Bible says that that's what happened to Jesus (but that was the point of your video wasn't it?), but the gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses of Jesus' death, so who's to say? Again though, this is just detail, it doesn't actually matter
jimi3001 2 years ago
I wasn't disputing that some people were tied to crosses, just that there's no reason to think Jesus was (if he existed). If you're able to doubt the accounts of the gospels, why not just doubt the crucifixion altogether?
TaylorX04 2 years ago
I don't see it as significant enough to actively doubt it. I didn't start replying to defend the consistency of the Bible, I was just pointing out that your definition/idea of crucifixion wasn't wholly accurate & that this could account for the inconsistency from an objective point of view. I try to keep an objective point of view so that when I do think of an argument against something I'm convinced it's a good one, and your previous videos have them. I just think this one is a bit weak sorry
jimi3001 2 years ago
That's the problem with word of mouth. Just like the "telephone" game, the story gets changed over time due to people confusing details, etc.
Onodera1980 2 years ago
Well done video's. I really enjoyed them.
Once upon a cross - Deicide was a supprise song to hear at the end.
shmatan 2 years ago 2
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macnutz 2 years ago
Wow, interesting information. I was surprised to learn that Thessalonians was the oldest part of the NT, thanks.
Awesome video.
DeletedDelusion 2 years ago
This also raises the question about a connection between Jesus and the mythological "hanged man" figure.
Up yours, literalists!
GnosticDjinn 2 years ago
If it turns out that jesus was hanged (and i am only postulating his existence for the sake of this argument) then christians are gonna have to start wearing and worshipping a noose...catholics will have to come up with a different way to bless themselves. And stigmata sufferers are going to become more interesting...
FractalHelix777 2 years ago 17
Nicely done.
FractalHelix777 2 years ago
So are you implying that the prophet Glen Benton was wrong! Unpossible!!!
CauchySchwarz 2 years ago
Nicely (and sensitively) done yet again! I've been waiting for this one for weeks!
applshmpoo 2 years ago
You do a great job. Thanks for this stuff. Are you familiar with DeistPaladin's work? I would say he is the other antibible scholar on YT that knows his stuff though I don't always agree with his analysis.
michalchik 2 years ago
Taylor, I have read these passages so many times and never questioned or occurred to me that gosh there may have been an evolution of the crucifixion doctrine, just like some other doctrines of the NT. Thanks for the insight.
torresut 2 years ago
Do you study the bible for a living?
I think you might know more about the bible than the pope. I'm impressed!
simsi1616 2 years ago 2
Silly, the pope does not know the bible.
torresut 2 years ago
What if "hanging on a tree" was just slang or metaphor at the time. Like, "swing", "fry", "ride the lightning", "sleep with the fishes", "catch a bullet", "be put to sleep", "eat a gun", "skydiving without a parachute", "kick the bucket", "take a dirt nap", "pass on", "expire", etc. Translate one of those over 2000 years and across a dozen languages and the details may be misconstrued. Doesn't really matter anyway, that book loses its credibility in the first chapter.
YashinNashi 2 years ago
Again and again I admire your knowledge in bible! Good job!
tigers123123 2 years ago
I don't care what happened to your imaginary friend.
gotrootdude 2 years ago
You must not be aware that I'm an atheist.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
I can't wait for the "Do YOU know your Qur'an?" Series.
WouldbeSage 2 years ago 2
Lol, I think that may be a long time coming. I have read the Qur'an, cover to cover, twice, but I don't consider myself as knowledgeable of it as I am of the bible. Maybe after a while of further study I will be. I kind of like to try and anticipate counterarguments as best I can.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
Cruxcifictions to good for you?
petehjr1 2 years ago 2
@petehjr
ROFL!
They only turned my tree the right way up last night!
kandtell 2 years ago
As someone who used to be a Christian, I can tell you that their answer to the "hanging on a tree" question is that it's just another way to say he was crucified.
It doesn't matter what evidence you bring them, they'll stick to that story.
jus10ls 2 years ago 2
Another great video, once again showing reasons to doubt the Bible and the claims of Christianity. I've enjoyed all the videos in this series and always look forward to the next.
Mitchy9901 2 years ago
hm. good presentation. interesting speculation.
nothing here that would make a die-hard believer that uncomfortable, i don't think.
"tree is just a poetic reference to the cross"
or...
"maybe they adopted the phrase because of Paul's use of it in connection with the curse of the law."
pilby 2 years ago
I agree, which is mainly why I ended the video with those two questions. I have no problem accepting that "hanging on a tree" is just a poetic reference to crucifixion, but they also have little than speculation as to why the NT authors would say such a thing. I could understand why Paul would, in connection with the quotation of Deut., but the other mentions of Jesus being hung on a tree just seem to be floating in space, with little contextual purpose.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
It seems almost possible that the Yeshua in the Talmud may have had a following of observant and loyal followers, and his execution evolved into the model for Jesus. One mans blasphemer is another man's Rabbi. It's all speculation though. Very nice informative video.
CHAS1422 2 years ago
Actually, five disciples of Yeshu are also described in the Talmud, with names like Matthai (Matthew), Thoda (Thomas), and Boni (Bartholomew?). It seems pretty interesting to note such connections.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
if some one is hanged from the neck the wrong way they could survive the hanging, then be 'resurected'. interesting words young one.
320iguy 2 years ago
You remind me more, with each video in this series, of my childhood in a catholic school.
I was there because my parents wanted me there.
I still hold resentment towards them, but just a tiny bit. It is what was done to them.
Great job on this one. End it with a question!
nishbrown 2 years ago
Very interesting Taylor.
Reminds me of some of the Jehovah's Witness literature that says Jesus died on a stake and not on a cross.
Paul never even knew Jesus, the gospels were written at least 37 years after Jesus died by men who were not eye witnesses, and some of Paul's letters were written by others. It is easy to see how the story developed a mythological character.
Ebal the Atheist
ebaltrace 2 years ago
The whole series is excellent!
"Keep 'em comin"
IllPropaganda 2 years ago
Very good presentation here. Well done!
Lpoolboy 2 years ago
Excellent video!
alienisuntverus 2 years ago
I'm a little shakey on the implications of Galations 6:14, the reference to Jesus' cross implies pretty heavily that Jesus was, in some sense, at least in possession of a cross at one point. Fascinating video otherwise.
JustNotConvinced 2 years ago
Yeah, I had the same thoughts, but it's still a pretty vague passage. Referring to "the cross of our Lord" is not a clear statement that Jesus was crucified, just that he had a cross. It seems similar to Mark 8:34 too, which led me to consider it symbolic.
TaylorX04 2 years ago
I think that verse may be the biggest weakness to an otherwise well supported argument.
JustNotConvinced 2 years ago
too many people need to see these videos
pistolpete667 2 years ago
What was the band at the end? Dying Fetus?
Zimy0 2 years ago
Haha, nice guess, but no. Deicide, "Once Upon the Cross".
TaylorX04 2 years ago
Deicide, From the album "Once Upon The Cross".
melowar78 2 years ago
Really like this series, keep up the good work.
Cowinspace 2 years ago
Great work Taylor.
AncientLie 2 years ago 7