All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
Interesting. And yet I wonder how exactly the scriptures "withstood" the scrutiny of 20 centuries of academics. At least in terms of epistemology the texts got totally invalidated.
Did that narrator just say that the fact that someone who was not even born before Jessu Ben Joseph died (Jesus, the Son of Joseph, as the Christ was known when he walked the earth as a man) is somehow capable of proving that the historical Jessu Ben Joseph actually lived just because they recited a fairy tale seventy or a hundred years after the death of Jessu Ben Joseph? Now that is some shitty logical reasoning.
@mirzanajib "The Father and I are one ." (John 10.30 )... him saying that he is equal to God. people wanted to stone him for it. and also, He forgave sins. unless he really was a crazy man, then he is God because He forgave sins and we both know that only God can forgive sins.
I do find it very interesting that pictures of Jesus and others in the Bible are white when in reality, the would have been black. (Egyptians are black)
Why is there only Europeans writing about Jesus? That's how u know Jesus is a made up story. A lot has been added and tooken out. According to the bible Jesus was suppose to have a black man. He did flee to Egypt and never got caught do to him blending in. Im not religious but a lot has been retold in different ways. This is crazy!
i have this burning question. if the earth was created 6000 years ago. then what are all those dinosaur bones that we dug up? they are proven to be from at least millions of years ago right?
@yxinz kind of. some living snails were dated a few thousand years ago. some fresh killed seal as well. parts of the same mammoth were dated different ages...there are some reaally old paintings and artifacts that represent dinosaurs. the drawings are very accurate. and in the bible book of job there are 2 very strange animals described. I'm just saying... if you don't believe me look it up for yourself
The claims that all atheist arguements about the biblical NT have been demolished is lies.
Think of this. IF the bible was impossible to refute, then why does the MAJORITY of the world population reject its claims. Why is there thousands of subsets of Christianity? Why did the Church need to lie and manipulate the truth so much?
This video is filled with deceit. Vague claims and a lot of wind, signifying nothing.
The arguement on whether OTHER historical figures existed due to poor historical documentation is irrelevant. IF Plato never existed, his 'work' did and is independant of his existance (if someone else wrote it, its still good). But Jesus IS the story, if he does not exist then Christianity fails COMPLETELY. The claims are supernatural and extreme, breaking the laws of the universe, and so demands for proof are required to back it up.
Funny how EVERY single person they refer to NEVER could have met Jesus, all wrote down what they heard AFTERWARDS. Not one was alive during the time period in question. All hearsay again, and all easily dismissed.
Religions cannot be true, all religious holy books and deities are fictious concepts crafted by primitive men. I don't care whether an individual prefers to believe in ancient myths and a god, that the earth is 6,000 years old, that god created man and evolution is all false. It's all the personal choice whether you chooses to believe in a myth or try expanding your knowledge to modern science and facts rather than primitve dull myths and superstition.
it's stupid to believe that one should judge a few people and say that everyone that they judge is the same.i take all the facts both scientific and religious . also iam a christian. before you judge others and look at yourself. when you judge others you judge your self.if i said all whites are racist because of slavery 400 years would i be right or wrong? times change there for life changes. you should never put hate before love of your fellow man. people that spew hate get hated.known fact.
christianity should apologize; it is no proof to have the religions leaders with an investment in promoting their faith to be called as proofs. and liberals have just as much truth and honesty--probably more than the religious who will take and weak statement that agrees with them as proof.
Consistency of the Biblical text? B.S. Fpr example Mark's account of the crucifixtion was revised long after it was written. In his early account he made no reference to the resurrection. None of the Apostles saw the crucifixaion. The whole thing was made to shore up Christianity against opposing religions. I think much of what happened incl. the so called miracles was fabricated. There are so called miracles being performed by "holy men" in India today with millions of followers. Sure.
2. My opinion on no writtings about Jesus during his life is this. We know historically there were many ppl proclaiming to be christ at that time, and many without a doubt were crucified for the same reasons as Jesus. So, it wasnt that big of a deal that Jesus was lumped in with the rest. Just an everyday kind of event so to speak.. but thats just an opinion..
@KesslersCross Off the top of my head, read the different versions of who first came to the tomb after Jesus was supposed to have risen. There are lots of differences. Read some Bible scholars books on the subject. Do you know about Q who was the original source for Mark and some of the other gospels? Read some books from people who have made a long study of the Bible. It is quite fascinating from a historical point of view. There are no known contemporary writers during the life of Jesus.
@jollyandwaylo It's not only that. If the Gospels were " inspired" why would Matthew & Luke have copied Mark extensively. John reflects 2nd century theology that would make no sense in Jesus' time. He also used a miracle list. For example, "This is the first miracle" and later,, "This is the second sign" despite other miracles in between.
I find it odd that Paul, who wrote decades earlier, never mentions a virgin birth, miracles or a single teaching of Jesus.
@smb12321 Yes, the inconsistencies go on and on. Considering that the Christians got together under Constantine and decided what to put in and what to leave out, they did a terrible job. But reading Roman history it appears that even then religion was a derisive power and they had bloody fights about which doctrine was right. Which to my way of thinking makes them all wrong.
@jollyandwaylo Well, we know that John was completed by around 100 AD (a papyrus scrap circa 120 AD has been found in Egypt). Romans honored all ancient religions - thus their liberal views toward Judaism. The only references to Jesus or "Christ" were strictly "in passing" - nothing to do with belief.
Christians today combine the Gospels, ignore the contradictions, place one tale in another Gospel & add cultural myth - the names of the wise men, a stable, the 2 Judas endings, etc
@smb12321 It seems strange that when hundreds of people rose from the dead at the same time as Jesus, no one thought to write it down except years later and only in the New Testament. All those zombies walking around and not a single roman scribe thought to write that down.
@jollyandwaylo 1.Oh I agree from a historical view it is fascinating. And your right, I dont know of any contemorary writers during the time, just shortly after,which can be explained within reasonable context. I think I know what you are talking about with the risen account. Read VERY carefully all three. They do go together, Ill have to look it up again because its been forever that I have read on that. But, I can throw it out there as I see it if you like...well, once I look it back up lol.
@KesslersCross That's because Christians merge the Gospel stories - contradictions and all. What are Jesus' last words? Most christians repeat all the versions. What about the omission of the greatest miracle (Lazarus) from the "eyewitness" accounts of Matt, Mark & Luke (lol)l. Or the different nativity, resurrection, Jerusalem stories.
I call it "Willy Nilly Jesus" - a figure who says something from Mark, does something in Luke and preaches something in John.
@smb12321 I never understood how atheist draw that conclusion. 4 books, 4 different authors, 4 different witnesses, 4 different experiences, all on the same subject, why would they be word for word? I Why would you not merge the accounts that 2 or more books share in common?A contradiction is a combination of statements,or features of a situation that are opposed, which I have yet to find in the Bible. If you can show me one, I would love to check it out. The nativity and resurection fit.
@KesslersCross If truly independent, the language would not be exactly the same in many cases. Each book reflects an interpretation Jesus. There is no way to reconcile Mark's Jesus who orders them to keep quiet to the elegant, explanatory speech maker in John. Amazingly, many Christians believe these are historical & not religious works.
99.99% of Bible scholars agree that Matt & Luke used Mark as a basis. John, written much later, works on a Passion from a different tradition.
Fact is, there is no independent verification—by a credible witness—to the life of Yeshua (Jesus if you prefer). Sorry, more Christian unsubstantiated propaganda.
@fognog3 "You have to understand that most people back then couldn't read or write. It was a big undertaking to get something written down."
So what changed between when it was a 'too big an undertaking' and when people started writing about it decades later?
Why can we find tons of Roman records from that area and time, but no mention at all of the miracles that supposedly took place? You figure a bunch of people coming back to life would have been documented that day - not decades later.
@TheHigherVoltage the roman historian tacitus wrote about jesus. I am not saying i believe everything in the bible but I do believe that jesus was a real person. There are other documents from around that time that talk about him as well.
@fognog3 "the roman historian tacitus wrote about jesus."
Tacitus wrote, in 116 AD, what was already written in the gospels..and got the name wrong. Information likely taken from one of the early cultists they rounded up and killed.
"There are other documents from around that time that talk about him as well. "
Everything was written decades after he was supposedly dead. Which is how all the pagan/mystery cults worked. "Want to meet god? You just missed him. But here's his story."
@TheHigherVoltage Ok show me the tons of documents that exist from rome. They are all LATER COPIES of roman documents. Very few documents OF ANY KIND exist from 2000 years ago. Documents just don't last long. The oldest copy of plato is from 890 AD does that mean Plato didn't exist?
@fognog3 "Ok show me the tons of documents that exist from rome. "
Take a course on Latin literature. It's divided into 2 sections. (1) The Golden Age, which covers approximately from the start of the 1st century BC up to the mid-1st century AD, and the (2) Silver Age, which extends into the 2nd century AD. Good luck getting through a fraction of it in your lifetime.
"Very few documents OF ANY KIND exist from 2000 years ago." Just cause you believe this doesn't mean you're right.
@TheHigherVoltage isn't that what you are saying? Like i said before I don't believe everything in the bible. We are talking about historical evidence here. According to the evidence it is most likely that jesus was a real person.
@fognog3 "The oldest copy of plato is from 890 AD does that mean Plato didn't exist? "
I don't care if he existed or not. Now, if Presidents and Kings start claiming "We work for Plato! I talk to Plato! Let's change this law for Plato! Let's go convert/war/kill the non-Platos! We won't stop till everyone believes they'll burn forever if they don't worship Plato!" Then I may care if Plato actually existed.
Till then, I'll take Plato as I do Jesus. Words on a page - stories in a book.
We can never be sure there is or is not a God,, BUT we can be sure that your god is not real. Outside the bible, there is no evidence for any miracles, eye witness or for anything in the bible AT THE TIME OF jesus. Jesus is a Myth. No part of the Christ story is original. It was all plagiarized from countless previous gods. Your faith is a joke and the jesus of is a jerk , bloodthirsty, not real not worth worshiping. Get real get a real life and really live.
@flightkiller09 You are correct that all those who wrote about Jesus never met him and the writings were several decades after Jesus was suppose to have lived (at the earliest). However, A.D. stands for "Anno Domini" which is Latin for "The Year Of Our Lord"
If you had lived in ancient Greece you would have believed that Zeus was a real person who had actually lived too and would present written testimonies to prove it. Yet we now know that Zeus was entirely mythical. Also how come only two historians Josephous and Tacticus mention Jesus and only mention him long after his death. How come none of the historians who were actually around in the first century never mention him?
Actually, Josephus didn't write about Jesus. Only a couple of lines were devoted to Jesus in the entire story, but now scholars have determined that that mentioning of Jesus was inserted by someone else other than Josephus. You have to realize that Josephus was a Jew. He never would have accepted Jesus being the son of any god. That would have been blasphemy.
Awesome how ALL these writers were BORN after the supposed death of Jesus; yet they write about him as factual?...give me a break; quite wasting your time and effort worshipping the sun...do something productive in the world; try using reasoning and logic for once instead of blindly following the Christian faith; which is derived from robe wearing homo's who didnt even know Jesus, who he was or if he even existed on EARTH...
The Holy Bible is the word of God but looking at things from both sides I can see where someone could argue that it was made up a long time ago by a group of men when there wasn't anyone around to check up on it . (Although I don't think men could be wise enough to come up with the things the Savior said .
So read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ which came about in modern times in 2 years through a 19 year old farmboy by the gift and power of God . No other explanation .;)
@ThevanGoghBlues Well skeptical scholars such as Burton Mack, Jewish expert Hyam Maccoby, former Catholic Priest John Dominic Crosson find the historical Jesus to be a Jewish teacher who taught as a Jew and probably did think of himself as the Messiah but could only succeed with God's power, not his own. The early Q document probably presented Jesus' words such as discussion on what to do if an ox is stuck in a ditct on the Sabbath. These skeptics of Christianity find the Christ of faith a myth.
In 1966, the phrase "In God we Trust" was added to the Dollar Bill, should (In A Dead Middle Eastern Man We Trust As Our New God With Blind Faith) be removed from the American Dollar Bill? I would like to see Abraham Lincoln's QOUTE added on the back of The American Penny, (“The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma”), US President.
@ThevanGoghBlues No one wrote about Philo of Judea while he was alive did they? Or many others who are thougth to have lived in the first century and other eras. If someone wrote a history of America in 2060, would you think it was odd if they didn't mention Oral Roberts? Where was Pontius Pilate buried? Or who was he father? Indeed many skeptics claimed he didn't exist until the Pilate stone was discovered in 1961.
@Rooker33 No you are wrong. It is NOT flawed. And that is because almost ALL historians and scholars now accept Pontius Pilate as a historical person due to the discovery of a stone dedicated to Pontius Pilate which lists the dates of his governership as perfect. It is possible that Pilate never existed but very unlikely. Pilate is mentioned in the New Testament, Josephus, Tacitus and other Christian writings. It is possible Jesus never existed but again unlikely.
While I carry no brief for D'Souza,I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general atheistic social perspectives
I would be an absolute liar to even consider that Jesus was not real. i thank God for the evidence that was left behind becouse it is really convincing if really looked at closely.
@ThevanGoghBlues U might forget that the whole city of Jerusalem was burned and destroyed barely 40 years after jesus death. And dont forget that for non christians he was just a charlatan who wasnt even worth any attention..
And u mean that christianity would be able to grow up so much, jsut after Jesus death, based on someones lies and fantasies? Do u believe that apostles would live their homes and risk their lifes for a lie??? Does that make sense to u?
While I carry no brief for D'Souza,I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general atheistic social perspectives
@ThevanGoghBlues The FACTS are that it is LIKELY Jesus of Nazareth lived and was originally a follower of John the Baptist, born between 4 and 7 BC in the fall and was executed by Pontius Pilate about 30 AD and probably the original followers of Jesus in Jerusalem were shocked by his execution and not expecting it. Who wrote about Pontius Pilate while he was alive? Why did a number of scholars DOUBT Pilates existence until an arch was found dedicated to him? Where was Tacitus born? Died? When?
@ThevanGoghBlues Well then WHO lived in the early first century of Israel that WAS written about while the writer was alive and the person was alive? If someone wrote a history of America during the 1960's while Oral Roberts was alive, would you be surprised they didn't mention him? The vast majority of historians and scholars find Josephus writing about Jesus and Tacitus too. Also Burton L. Mack, Phd who is an agnostic scholar on Christian origins finds Jesus in the oldest layer of Q.
This is a stupid interview. While the evidence is mostly true, this guy is a joke. He is completely biased. "No other manuscript could stand up to opposition by skeptics such as this." The REASON it stood up is because it is a religion. The same thing applies to Islam, people oppose it. Smart one, sheesh.
Look at it this way they all same the share hell so why not the same god? When someone can answer that question with a real answer then ok. Also if you say there is nothing beyond life you are more retarded then the people that force religion upon others thinking that they know best on something humans can't understand, saying there is nothing is just giving up
Ok lol im sorry but i need to comment, why everyone is saying " Accept jesus's etc" i dont understand if you think about it most religions if they are not taken to the extreme stress the same thing good karma bad karma, help others and get rewarded why you need the same god idk just if you think about it looking @ religion as seperate things is dumb if they all have the same purpose kind of like windows and mac they are different but do the same thing just in different ways
I still find it funny how christians say it is a sin to lie but seem to be so prolific at lying to themselves and others to prove their god existed? 1st and second century books come on. I want actual texts and maybe a census from that time. There were scholars at the supposed time of Jesus where is they're writing about Jesus? You won't find any because there isn't any the gospels are lies created nearly a hundred years after his supposed death. Real and reliable, really wake up people.
@corktech ok im neither christian or against christian im just a guy with a open mind but anyways the proof besides the bible is the templers of christ follow their history that will get you BC even though they are called the templers of christ and they became templers/knights by using the blanket of christ, the blanket exists thats proof, jesus's existed just weather he was the son of god or just a really smart guy with some good tricks dunno
I've read a good amount of Crossan's and Borg's books and don't find them to be anti-Jesus, especially as a historical Jewish figure. Borg has a great and inspiring take on Jesus' ministry in my view. Crossan's "In Search of Paul" has a picture of what is considered to be the only archeological evidence of Jesus. Both men differ with some of the mainstream Christian interpretations of Jesus' message and life, but that's what real theology is about.
Academic credability would never allow a Christian document to prove a Christian theory. You can not use the Bible to prove Christianity is true. It is a self containing argument. This man would not allow a Muslim to use the Qu'Ran to back up his/her tradition.
OK...Sure people believed in many things back then ... Sure... OK...people would attempt to write about whatever to merely support a myth....... what about the the validity of what people are claiming? ...people are merely capable of belief or even denial in just about whatever they choose ...what addresses the claims found in the NT that falsely ridicule , and falsely accuse others .. for non-belief of fairy tales?..... When will you realize that Non-belief is just as important as belief?
@D5500S Ok this is youtube you could have said all that with the last sentence cause literally all i got from that is sumthing sumthing belief= non belief
Your faith does not look so strong when you are provoked, even by people you consider less intelligent and articulated. Get a grip and please, at least have faith and be a good Christian by embracing your adversary . . .he needs more than you do, if you have faith . . .
What's jesus doing now? Is he too busy running the universe that he cant pop in from time to time to show people who he is? He's the beginning and the end, he's timeless, yet he stays hidden. He revealed himself to doubting thomas, I think most of us are just asking for the same common courtesy instead of having to rely on our flawed senses and the even more flawed interpretations of man. Whether he was real or not does still not prove he is the one and only true way. answers?
REV 22-16 IS THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR-VENUS WORSHIP--ITS ALL ASTROTHEOLOGY-JESUS IS REPTILLIAN WORSHIP-AND HE WAS BARIED IN SRINIGAR-INDIA--ANYWAYS--CHRISTIANITY IS --A THROW AWAY SOLAR CULT RELIGION WAKE UP-THE SAME STORY WAS RUNNING AROUND THE MED FOR `1000 YEARS BEFORE RA HORUS--MYTHRA-KRISHNA-SAME STORIES --IT CAME THRU THE MEROVIGN BLOODLINE THIS RELIGULOUS NONSENSE
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y-please watch and understand ur own bible
I did see Jesus face to face in His glotified body some time ago,and milions other people did see Him in person or Spirit,or many other ways. Is not imposible to see God if u realy look.
THROWe ALL THOSE THEORIS OUT THE DOOR. ANYWAYS THE REAL 1st TIME DNA WAS NOTICED WAS IN BEGINNINGS OF 1900s n NOW THEY CANT EVEN FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WHAT WITH IT. SO ENOUGH WITH THE BS STORYS.
Can you tell me a story about fiction n then it became real just like the Big Bang Theory or That we all came out of evolution of 1cell? Why arent there animals that can rationalise n conversate with us since we evolved from them? I mean there has to be different levels n not just a sudden difference between humans plants n animals since were constantly evolving huh? WHAT ARE WE GONA EVOLVE TO NEXT SMART GUYS? SOMETYPE OF DRAGON OR ALIEN? NOOOOO
Yes He is. made such an impact like He did,that resulted in the year markings of B.C.BeforeChrist & A.D.is Latin for"AnnoChristi,"in the year of Christ or AnnoDomini (abbreviated as AD)meaning year of our Lord.
Why when u talk about God or Jesus Christ theres soo much hate n deni, But when theres a topic about the devil or something dark n satanic, santeria, witchcraft, its amazing n interesting that no one denies or rejects. But they do reject God rite of the bat. What people reject the most is whats truth. That says it all. POINT PROVEN...
Theres so much power n feelings n force to reject God that you can tell He is TRUE and REAL. LOL
If JESUS CHRIST never EXISTED. -Why did He make sooo MUCH HISTORY that not one king or person in all of history made such an impact like He did,that resulted in the year markings of B.C.BeforeChrist & A.D.is Latin for"AnnoChristi,"in the year of Christ or AnnoDomini (abbreviated as AD)meaning year of our Lord.Eather way History did recognise his 1st coming,& prove He did Die Crusified in a cross,to Die for our sins
20 Centuries of attacks, of course he is counting the years of the Inquasitions when you would be killed if you spoke against Christianity. Yes, he puts all the facts in here. Well not really, but many people will believe him. There is a difference bewteen what you "believe" and what you can "prove". Cut the rhetoric and give us some proof. Oh, there is no proof , so you must resort to rhetoric. Blah, Blah, Blah.
its just funny that since we have had high tech recording equipment . there has been no recorded events of angellic or other worldly visitors representing the heavens ... its just silly people still believe this hog wash ... history has been altered by greedy men to suit their cause and we take it for truth ... and christians are blind .. granted there not all idiots but on some level to believe this stuff you are damaged
@blueteamleader420 who are you to call Christians blind and damaged? who are you to judge? call me damaged because i believe in something, God save you my friend, and God bless. can't wait to see ur face when Jesus asks you what you did for him.
@britishpony . i was raised by christians to be a christian . by the time i was 12 or so i had too many questions that were not able to be answered by the church . so i decided to put it from my thought till i had a reason to believe .. and is your all omnipotent god petty enough to condemn nonbelievers simply because of there choice not to believe in HIM ? even if said person abides by the commandments not because they believe in god but because it suits there own moral code. its a farce.
@britishpony... and by the way ... your comment about wanting to see my face when im judged... think about that for a second .... now ... this is your religion were talking about. was that something a good christian would say ... is that something YOUR god would want you to say? .... your whole following is filled with people like you ... ignorent and blind people contradicting your every word with your actions ... christians, muslims, jews, you guys are ALL the same ..
Watch a Pre-January 8th copy of Inception. Listen closely when the actors say imagine, reality, and safe, or point pistols. You'll hear the words, Loughner, offin' her, part of the word Giffords, and much more. Some say they hear, do it.
@Humbler25 "You spend all of that trolling youtube."
Classic fundamentalist. You cannot refute the argument, so you attack the person. You are a primary example of modern Christianity. It is no surprise that people are leaving the church in droves.
@jimmo42 Are you as delusional as the one I was discussing with?Are you going to tell me that Josephus was Paul without being able to back it up?That has clearly been refuted.Or are you foolishly going to argue against the historical Jesus.Those are two discussion points that have been going on in this thread that you simply cannot win
One whom chooses to argue those points are fighting a losing battle because the evidence is in my favor. Why use quotation marks if not accurately quoting me?
@Humbler25 Classic Humbler25 and classic fundie strawmen arguments. You are full of logical fallacites aren't you? Why don't you simply argue against what I post and not desperately try to win with your strawman arguments. I have actually argued for the historical Jesus on many occassions.
They *are* exact quotes. Exactly what are you now going to claim you didn't say?
@jimmo42 They are not exact quotes at all, you're pretending I said things in a way that I never said them. It's easy for anyone to see through you, all they have to do is go back and read my comments.
You haven't refuted anything and haven't shown that Quirinius was elsewhere. The only thing you've successfully proven is that a census took place in 6 AD. Good for you, that doesn't mean the first census Luke talks about didn't happen ten years earlier.
@jimmo42 Really... then when did I say this, "Go look yourself, because I don't have any sources." Um, never! You're attempting to put words in my mouth that I never said. So, you can stop lying by saying that was a direct quote.
The "lifesyle" talk is not pathetic, your bitterness would indicate you may have that in common with 90-95% of those I come in contact with over these topics.
@Humbler25 And again you fall back yo the "life style" business. You are really pathetic.
You claimed that a “Latin inscription discovered in 1764” was evidence Quirinius was legate of Syria twice. You were wrong. That inscription does NOT mention Quirinus. So, now you have no evidence Quirinius was legate twice and thus no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census in 6AD.
@jimmo42 excuse me "no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census in 6AD" should read "no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census prior to 6AD."
@jimmo42 Even you earlier admitted to the 6 AD census, are you now changing your mind? LOL, your the one that provided Josephus to establish the 6 AD census.
So, you refute things by pointing out a book, but don't let me do the same... hypocritical... maybe. Go read one of Stroebel's books and you'll have plenty of evidence to refute all of your nonsense then.
@Humbler25 Please do pay attention. You may not beleive it, but it actually does help the discourse. I already posted a correction to that mistake. it was typo. the evidence is right in front of your eyes and you choose to ignore it. That does seem to be your common mode of behaviour.
@jimmo42 no you didnt... you pretend that I said things I never said and you admit to the census of 6 AD. That is the simple fact.
There is no serious reason not to believe a census took place during the reign of Herod, especially since one took place in 6 AD. Clearly census' were taken during those times. Plus, the word governor, doesn't necessarily mean legate - that's already been explained to you.
@Humbler25 "Plus, the word governor, doesn't necessarily mean legate - that's already been explained to you."
Certainly not by you, because you have no clue. Legate (lat. legatus) is the military title/rank that Quirinius had. When people of that rank were given the governorship of a province, they were referred to as "legate governor". It is basically the same as calling them "military governor" today. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about
@Humbler25 Yes, you can point out *a book*. Which one? Which pages? We both know you are simply fishing, hoping that Strobel made some reference in one of his books. You have never read them, we both know it. In which book does he refute the claim that the “Latin inscription discovered in 1764” does not mention Quirinius? In which book does he give source references for a claim that Quirinius was legate of Syria prior to 6 AD?
And now you are going to come up with something to wiggle out this.
"The Birth of the Messiah" by Father Raymond Brown. Appendix VII "The Census under Quirinius", pg. 547-556. He goes into details of why it would be impossible for Quirinius to have served as legate of Syria prior to 6AD. On pg 550-551, he points out that the inscription you used as evidence did not mentioned Quirinus at all. He states, "The thesis that this is a reference to Quirinius is pure guess".
@jimmo42 Luke used the term "hegemon", which is a broader term than "governor", and may well be referring to the administrative role Cyrenius (Quirinius) was assigned as opposed to being titled as "governor".
Cyrenius' history is indeed well documented. He ruled both Syria and Judea after the year 6 A. D. when Archelaus was deposed as king of Judea.
Wrong. He actually used the word "ηεγεμονευο" (hegemonewo) which means "to be leader", "to lead the way " or "to govern". The correct english translation of the original greek should be "while Quirinius was governing Syria". As you can see, the original Greek makes no mention of the actual title or function. So nitpicking about the word "hegemon" is compeltely invalid as that is not the word used. (ηγεμονευοντος της συριας κυρηνιου)
@jimmo42 Actually it's you whom doesn't understand The term Luke uses for Quirinius ‘governorship’ is the general term, hegemon, which in extra-Biblical Greek was applied to prefects, provincial governors, and even Caesar himself. In the Bible it was used as a broad term for procurators and general ‘rulers’. This term applied to Quirinius at MANY times in his political career and, as a general term, Syria would have had several individuals that could be properly so addressed at the same time.
Luke 2:2 αυτη απογραφη πρωτη εγενετο ηγεμονευοντος της συριας κυρηνιου
As everyone can clearly see, the word "to govern" is clearly a verb (base form ηεγεμονευο) and not a noun. While ηεγεμονευο is often translated like "he was governor" as opposed to "he governed", you can clearly see that Quirinius' title is not specifically stated. You wil also note that Quirinius is in the genitive case, as is Syria (actually "the Syria")
@jimmo42 that does nothing to diminish anything that I've said about Quirnius' role during his two reigns as "governor"
The census took place during the governorship... Luke (the accurate historian that he is, is establishing the time the event took place.) That should be pretty clear for even someone like you to see.
On pg. 554 Brown states "There is no serious reason to believe that there was a Roman census of Palenstine during the reign of Herod the Great." Then shortly thereafter, he says "It is doubtful that anyone would have even thought about an earlier census if he were not trying to defend the Lucan accuracy." This is fully annoted with references to all of the source material.
@jimmo42 The purpose of this registration was to record an official declaration of allegiance from all of his subjects to present to Caesar Augustus in celebration of his Silver Jubilee.
History records that Varus was governor of Syria from about 7 B.C. to about 4 B.C. and was not a trustworthy leader. However, Cyrenius was a notable military leader.
Even if all of the historical records are wrong about who was legate in Syria and when, it is still impossible that any census was conducted by Quirinius in Bethlehem prior to 6CE. Because in 6CE the Judean king Herod Archelaus was banished and Judea came under direct control of the Romans. Prior to that, taxes would have been collected by the king and *not* the Romans as in Luke. The very reason this the "first" census under
Quirinius was that Judea was no longer an independant kingdom.
@jimmo42 During the census of 8-7 B.C., Augustus entrusted Cyrenius with Palestine, effectively superseding the authority and governorship of Varus by appointing Cyrenius to a place of special authority. Cyrenius administered in Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C., and later beginning about A.D. 6.
@Humbler25 "Cyrenius administered in Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C"
Claiming Cyrenius/Quirinius "administered in Syria" "between 12 and 2 B.C" contradicts the extra-biblical sources. Whoever made that statement got it wrong. Compare it with Josephus.
@jimmo42 A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 has been interpreted to refer to Cyrenius as having served as governor of Syria on two occasions.
History records that Cyrenius was on assignment in Syria during this time and was one of the few trusted leaders. It is probable that Varus was on his way out while Cyrenius was taking charge of matters during Luke's narration.
@Humbler25 "A Latin inscription discovered in 1764..."
That is typical of your proof. As I have said repeatedly, that inscription does not mention Quirinius. No serious scholar believes that it is refering to Quirinius. Or can you name one?
@jimmo42 just because you've said it, doesn't make it true. The Latin inscription states that the subject had twice been the ‘imperial legate’ i.e. the governor, It is likely that Quirinius was appointed an additional legate
So Luke is referring to an earlier governorship of Quirinius before his second appointment in AD 6. As this first tenure would’ve involved leadership of the Roman campaign against the Homanadensian tribe, this would push it right inside the time-frame of Herod’s reign.
@Humbler25 Once again you have failed to address the key point. Even if Quirinius was governor of Syria when Herod the great was king, he would *not* have conducted a census in Bethlehem, as that was the responsiblity of the local king (Herod). You can make up a desperate story to claim Quirinius did conduct a census, but the historical records are against you. Further, making up a story would be lying and lying is a sin, right? You don't want to burn in hell just to be right, now do you?
@Humbler25 I actually enjoy this kind. I like to see Christians make up stories (read: lie) just to be right. Most Christians in the world don't need to lie because they accept the bible has flaws and concentrate on other things like Jesus' message. However, there are so many whose ego forces them to lie in order to be right. What good does it do gain the whole world but lose your soul as an unrepetant sinner (i.e. a liar)? You need not convince me. You just need to convice God.
@jimmo42 no reason to make up stories, because the truth is right there. You can pretend there are historical contradictions in the Bible all you want, but you are only fooling yourself. The facts and historical evidence do not support you despite how badly you may want them to. You seem fueled, not by evidence, considering it's not on your side, and more by a lifestyle that makes you not want to believe. That's your choice, but let's call it what it is.
@jimmo42 Well said, although you're probably wasting your time on those who won't look at facts. All they have to do to settle the argument is to have their god make an appearance. Surely it shouldn't be difficult for an omnipotent being that created the universe to just break into the local news some evening and set things straight. Of course, that isn't going to happen. You can't change a closed mind, but thanks for trying. There are none so blind as those...who make shit up.
@bensil34 I often enjoy conversation of this type, particulary when they use sites like answerbag as their source which has so-called evidence that I have never heard before. In this case, the answerbag reference talked about Varus, which I had not heard before, so I checked it out. Naturally, the answerbag reference was historically incorrect, but I know have even more information the next time, plus I now know where the answerbag post got its erroneous information.
@jimmo42 It's good to find out the sources, and interesting how they are blindly accepted. Bart Ehrman, a famous former believer and historian with bona fides in this field (he even learned the original languages of the scriptures) argues convincingly for the historical existence of a Jesus figure. He doesn't believe the myths, but is convinced there is evidence for such a person. Check out "The Historical Jesus: Man or Myth?" videos and see what you think.
@jimmo42 Luke has proven himself over and over throughout the centuries to be a reliable historian, even in the details. In his making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands, Luke made no mistakes.
FYI, all of this information is copy and pasted so don't bother with another silly rant about that. I'm simply bringing information to you that you fail to seek out for yourself.
@Humbler25 "FYI, all of this information is copy and pasted"
You are relying on answerbag com for your sources?!?!? Oh my goodness!!! Say it ain't so, Joe!!!
I provide sources from eminant biblical scholars and you are using answerbag com?!?!?! Are you *really* so naive as to think that answerbag com is a legitimate source? Someone throws up on the floor and you lap it up saying "hmmm, yummy!!!" Classic fundie "research", swallow anything that supports them even if its wrong. You are sad!
@jimmo42 within my comments I gave credible historical scholars... go back and reread it again for the references incase you missed them. I copy and paste after web searches to show the obvious. That this information is readily available and to show that your ignorance is of your own choosing. You simply don't have a leg to stand on and everything you've said has been easily refuted.
@Humbler25 I asked for a book reference, not some wiki-like site were any bozo can write utter nonsense. The site is utterly *worthless* for any serious information, the same goes for christiananswers net. I would accept bible org as they provide references. answerbag com is for desperate people who cannot find real answers elsewhere. If you had actually read anything by Strobel (which you referred to) you would have book and page references. You don't as you have never read any of his books.
@Humbler25 I challenge you to find some legitimate source that shows 1) Quirinius was governor of Syria at a time that matches the birth narrative in *Matthew* 2) The position Quirinius held at that time was such that he would have been authorized to conduct a census and tax the jewish people who were actually under the rule of Kind Herod the great. 3) Does not contradict respected sources such as Josephus. Good luck. You'll need a miracle!
@jimmo42 Both scripture and Josephus indicate this was well after Jesus� birth and Herod�s death (Mat 2:1,16,22; Antiquities 17.8.1-4, 17.13.1-5;18.1.1-6). Armenian historian Moses of Khorene (Armenian History 2:26) says that in 3 B. C. Roman authorities came to Armenia to set up images of Caesar Augustus in the temples of the area. These same sources state that it was the registration mentioned in Luke which brought them there.
@Humbler25 "You haven't refuted anything and haven't shown that Quirinius was elsewhere."
Yes, I have. I pointed you to the book "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown, a Roman Catholic priest and biblical scholar. PM me your email address and I will send you copies of the pages where he proves that the Quirinius could not have conducted a census that matches the chronology in Matthew. Therefore, either Matthew was wrong or Luke. Take your pick.
@TheDarvus Loving the way you refuse to read hundreds of pages of evidence because you're afraid it will force you to reexamine your lifestyle. Actually, not loving it, because its very sad. Your ignorance is of your own choosing because knowledge is readily available.
@TheDarvus How about you read a book and find it out for yourself? What are you afraid of? I know it may force you to reconsider your lifestyle, but that would be a good thing. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Go pick up one of Stroebel's books instead of just trolling his videos. It will be good for you.
"Man" or humans, have evolved over thousands of years, especially the human brain. It's this brain that is in question. Just 1500 years before Jesus; man invented the "wheel"(wow).
Man a few thousand years ago had know idea that death was automatic for humans at a certain average age, thats how stupid we were. Just 500 yrs ago we were burning people at the stake for accusations of witch-craft, and we also as humans thought the earth was square until about 1490. So 2000 yrs ago the bible LOL
@TheDarvus Jesus Christ was a very real individual and all the evidence proves that fact. This is history we are talking about here, not what you have made up in your own head. Lots of evidence for Paul too! You still have zero evidence to support Josephus being Paul and zero evidence to support the Gospels being a satire of anything. You have nothing! Even someone as dense as yourself should realize that by now.
@herbalbuzz It's not the same thing at all because the books on Jesus use historical documentation to back up the findings. Nothing extraordinary about examining the evidence for the historical Jesus and realizing that he's very real indeed. That is why historians the world over (even atheist ones) acknowledge that fact.
@Humbler25 It's all good, I don't push my beliefs on people and expect the same in return, who I am to judge?
To many people, to many religions, to many problems. I chose not to believe in blind faith and live my life with what i see and what I learn with facts, it works for me.
@Humbler25 It's pretty sad that the same "historical documentation" you claim some proves Jesus (e.g. Josephus) contradicts the bible. When the documents support your position, you insist they are valid. However, they are wrong when they go against your position. You are trully a sad individual.
All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
mamainmancj 2 weeks ago
Interesting. And yet I wonder how exactly the scriptures "withstood" the scrutiny of 20 centuries of academics. At least in terms of epistemology the texts got totally invalidated.
IvoryStages 4 weeks ago
I like how all the evidence for Jesus cited was between 70 and 180 AD
Truly all primary sources that met him eh?
alexicoff 1 month ago
Did that narrator just say that the fact that someone who was not even born before Jessu Ben Joseph died (Jesus, the Son of Joseph, as the Christ was known when he walked the earth as a man) is somehow capable of proving that the historical Jessu Ben Joseph actually lived just because they recited a fairy tale seventy or a hundred years after the death of Jessu Ben Joseph? Now that is some shitty logical reasoning.
CVForty3 3 months ago
Where in the bible did Jesus claim to be god?
Where in the bible did Jesus ask to be worshipped?
Where did Jesus say I am God Manifested in flesh?
Where did Jesus mention the original sin?
Where did Jesus say I am the God the Son?
Where did Jesus say that I am God the Word?
Where did Jesus say I am the Second God in Trinity
There is is only one God,Allah,who alone is worthy of being worshipped
I bear witness that there is only one God and Muhammad is the last Prophet
mirzanajib 4 months ago
@mirzanajib "The Father and I are one ." (John 10.30 )... him saying that he is equal to God. people wanted to stone him for it. and also, He forgave sins. unless he really was a crazy man, then he is God because He forgave sins and we both know that only God can forgive sins.
iamtheman584 2 months ago
I do find it very interesting that pictures of Jesus and others in the Bible are white when in reality, the would have been black. (Egyptians are black)
Merlienia 4 months ago
Why is there only Europeans writing about Jesus? That's how u know Jesus is a made up story. A lot has been added and tooken out. According to the bible Jesus was suppose to have a black man. He did flee to Egypt and never got caught do to him blending in. Im not religious but a lot has been retold in different ways. This is crazy!
lovergal1984 4 months ago
i have this burning question. if the earth was created 6000 years ago. then what are all those dinosaur bones that we dug up? they are proven to be from at least millions of years ago right?
yxinz 5 months ago
@yxinz Satan done it.
MugiwaraJr 5 months ago
@yxinz kind of. some living snails were dated a few thousand years ago. some fresh killed seal as well. parts of the same mammoth were dated different ages...there are some reaally old paintings and artifacts that represent dinosaurs. the drawings are very accurate. and in the bible book of job there are 2 very strange animals described. I'm just saying... if you don't believe me look it up for yourself
icsvortex665 4 months ago
Yeah, We should trust the Church is telling us the truth about its history that it wrote and amended and tweaked and altered over 2000 years. Sure.
Its not like the Church never lied or cheated or deceived anyone right. RIGHT????
lol.
AMomentOfClarity2011 6 months ago
The claims that all atheist arguements about the biblical NT have been demolished is lies.
Think of this. IF the bible was impossible to refute, then why does the MAJORITY of the world population reject its claims. Why is there thousands of subsets of Christianity? Why did the Church need to lie and manipulate the truth so much?
This video is filled with deceit. Vague claims and a lot of wind, signifying nothing.
AMomentOfClarity2011 6 months ago
The arguement on whether OTHER historical figures existed due to poor historical documentation is irrelevant. IF Plato never existed, his 'work' did and is independant of his existance (if someone else wrote it, its still good). But Jesus IS the story, if he does not exist then Christianity fails COMPLETELY. The claims are supernatural and extreme, breaking the laws of the universe, and so demands for proof are required to back it up.
AMomentOfClarity2011 6 months ago
Funny how EVERY single person they refer to NEVER could have met Jesus, all wrote down what they heard AFTERWARDS. Not one was alive during the time period in question. All hearsay again, and all easily dismissed.
AMomentOfClarity2011 6 months ago
Religions cannot be true, all religious holy books and deities are fictious concepts crafted by primitive men. I don't care whether an individual prefers to believe in ancient myths and a god, that the earth is 6,000 years old, that god created man and evolution is all false. It's all the personal choice whether you chooses to believe in a myth or try expanding your knowledge to modern science and facts rather than primitve dull myths and superstition.
PsychoSyndrome777 6 months ago
it's stupid to believe that one should judge a few people and say that everyone that they judge is the same.i take all the facts both scientific and religious . also iam a christian. before you judge others and look at yourself. when you judge others you judge your self.if i said all whites are racist because of slavery 400 years would i be right or wrong? times change there for life changes. you should never put hate before love of your fellow man. people that spew hate get hated.known fact.
chrisrogers1229 6 months ago
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME ,YESTERDAY,TODAY AND FOREVER,HE NEVER CHANGES.
ilililhy1 6 months ago
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@ilililhy1 "JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME ,YESTERDAY,TODAY AND FOREVER,HE NEVER CHANGES."
Just like Thor never changes.
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
christianity should apologize; it is no proof to have the religions leaders with an investment in promoting their faith to be called as proofs. and liberals have just as much truth and honesty--probably more than the religious who will take and weak statement that agrees with them as proof.
garudagal23 6 months ago
Consistency of the Biblical text? B.S. Fpr example Mark's account of the crucifixtion was revised long after it was written. In his early account he made no reference to the resurrection. None of the Apostles saw the crucifixaion. The whole thing was made to shore up Christianity against opposing religions. I think much of what happened incl. the so called miracles was fabricated. There are so called miracles being performed by "holy men" in India today with millions of followers. Sure.
davidleealford 6 months ago
2. My opinion on no writtings about Jesus during his life is this. We know historically there were many ppl proclaiming to be christ at that time, and many without a doubt were crucified for the same reasons as Jesus. So, it wasnt that big of a deal that Jesus was lumped in with the rest. Just an everyday kind of event so to speak.. but thats just an opinion..
KesslersCross 6 months ago
Gospel stories don't even agree with each other. Just a collection of stories like other folk tales.
jollyandwaylo 6 months ago
@jollyandwaylo Really? How so? I have always found them to go together pretty well.
KesslersCross 6 months ago
@KesslersCross Off the top of my head, read the different versions of who first came to the tomb after Jesus was supposed to have risen. There are lots of differences. Read some Bible scholars books on the subject. Do you know about Q who was the original source for Mark and some of the other gospels? Read some books from people who have made a long study of the Bible. It is quite fascinating from a historical point of view. There are no known contemporary writers during the life of Jesus.
jollyandwaylo 6 months ago
@jollyandwaylo It's not only that. If the Gospels were " inspired" why would Matthew & Luke have copied Mark extensively. John reflects 2nd century theology that would make no sense in Jesus' time. He also used a miracle list. For example, "This is the first miracle" and later,, "This is the second sign" despite other miracles in between.
I find it odd that Paul, who wrote decades earlier, never mentions a virgin birth, miracles or a single teaching of Jesus.
smb12321 6 months ago
@smb12321 Yes, the inconsistencies go on and on. Considering that the Christians got together under Constantine and decided what to put in and what to leave out, they did a terrible job. But reading Roman history it appears that even then religion was a derisive power and they had bloody fights about which doctrine was right. Which to my way of thinking makes them all wrong.
jollyandwaylo 6 months ago
@jollyandwaylo Well, we know that John was completed by around 100 AD (a papyrus scrap circa 120 AD has been found in Egypt). Romans honored all ancient religions - thus their liberal views toward Judaism. The only references to Jesus or "Christ" were strictly "in passing" - nothing to do with belief.
Christians today combine the Gospels, ignore the contradictions, place one tale in another Gospel & add cultural myth - the names of the wise men, a stable, the 2 Judas endings, etc
smb12321 6 months ago
@smb12321 It seems strange that when hundreds of people rose from the dead at the same time as Jesus, no one thought to write it down except years later and only in the New Testament. All those zombies walking around and not a single roman scribe thought to write that down.
jollyandwaylo 6 months ago
@jollyandwaylo 1.Oh I agree from a historical view it is fascinating. And your right, I dont know of any contemorary writers during the time, just shortly after,which can be explained within reasonable context. I think I know what you are talking about with the risen account. Read VERY carefully all three. They do go together, Ill have to look it up again because its been forever that I have read on that. But, I can throw it out there as I see it if you like...well, once I look it back up lol.
KesslersCross 6 months ago
@KesslersCross That's because Christians merge the Gospel stories - contradictions and all. What are Jesus' last words? Most christians repeat all the versions. What about the omission of the greatest miracle (Lazarus) from the "eyewitness" accounts of Matt, Mark & Luke (lol)l. Or the different nativity, resurrection, Jerusalem stories.
I call it "Willy Nilly Jesus" - a figure who says something from Mark, does something in Luke and preaches something in John.
smb12321 6 months ago
@smb12321 I never understood how atheist draw that conclusion. 4 books, 4 different authors, 4 different witnesses, 4 different experiences, all on the same subject, why would they be word for word? I Why would you not merge the accounts that 2 or more books share in common?A contradiction is a combination of statements,or features of a situation that are opposed, which I have yet to find in the Bible. If you can show me one, I would love to check it out. The nativity and resurection fit.
KesslersCross 6 months ago
@KesslersCross If truly independent, the language would not be exactly the same in many cases. Each book reflects an interpretation Jesus. There is no way to reconcile Mark's Jesus who orders them to keep quiet to the elegant, explanatory speech maker in John. Amazingly, many Christians believe these are historical & not religious works.
99.99% of Bible scholars agree that Matt & Luke used Mark as a basis. John, written much later, works on a Passion from a different tradition.
smb12321 6 months ago
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Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 6 months ago
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their is not one person on this earth that has not prayed to god at one time or another if you say that you haven't you are a liar
fognog3 6 months ago
Fact is, there is no independent verification—by a credible witness—to the life of Yeshua (Jesus if you prefer). Sorry, more Christian unsubstantiated propaganda.
verywest 6 months ago
come on guys. arent u a little old for imaginery friends?
ratemyswing1 6 months ago
You have to understand that most people back then couldn't read or write. It was a big undertaking to get something written down.
fognog3 6 months ago
@fognog3 "You have to understand that most people back then couldn't read or write. It was a big undertaking to get something written down."
So what changed between when it was a 'too big an undertaking' and when people started writing about it decades later?
Why can we find tons of Roman records from that area and time, but no mention at all of the miracles that supposedly took place? You figure a bunch of people coming back to life would have been documented that day - not decades later.
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
@TheHigherVoltage the roman historian tacitus wrote about jesus. I am not saying i believe everything in the bible but I do believe that jesus was a real person. There are other documents from around that time that talk about him as well.
fognog3 6 months ago
@fognog3 "the roman historian tacitus wrote about jesus."
Tacitus wrote, in 116 AD, what was already written in the gospels..and got the name wrong. Information likely taken from one of the early cultists they rounded up and killed.
"There are other documents from around that time that talk about him as well. "
Everything was written decades after he was supposedly dead. Which is how all the pagan/mystery cults worked. "Want to meet god? You just missed him. But here's his story."
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
@TheHigherVoltage Ok show me the tons of documents that exist from rome. They are all LATER COPIES of roman documents. Very few documents OF ANY KIND exist from 2000 years ago. Documents just don't last long. The oldest copy of plato is from 890 AD does that mean Plato didn't exist?
fognog3 6 months ago
@fognog3 "Ok show me the tons of documents that exist from rome. "
Take a course on Latin literature. It's divided into 2 sections. (1) The Golden Age, which covers approximately from the start of the 1st century BC up to the mid-1st century AD, and the (2) Silver Age, which extends into the 2nd century AD. Good luck getting through a fraction of it in your lifetime.
"Very few documents OF ANY KIND exist from 2000 years ago." Just cause you believe this doesn't mean you're right.
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
@TheHigherVoltage again those are works that were copied from ancient works. The originals (for the most part) do not exist.
fognog3 6 months ago
@fognog3 You start by claiming it was a big deal to write something down, then you jump to only the originals count.
What's the matter with your intellectual honesty?
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
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@TheHigherVoltage isn't that what you are saying? Like i said before I don't believe everything in the bible. We are talking about historical evidence here. According to the evidence it is most likely that jesus was a real person.
fognog3 6 months ago
@fognog3 "The oldest copy of plato is from 890 AD does that mean Plato didn't exist? "
I don't care if he existed or not. Now, if Presidents and Kings start claiming "We work for Plato! I talk to Plato! Let's change this law for Plato! Let's go convert/war/kill the non-Platos! We won't stop till everyone believes they'll burn forever if they don't worship Plato!" Then I may care if Plato actually existed.
Till then, I'll take Plato as I do Jesus. Words on a page - stories in a book.
TheHigherVoltage 6 months ago
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We can never be sure there is or is not a God,, BUT we can be sure that your god is not real. Outside the bible, there is no evidence for any miracles, eye witness or for anything in the bible AT THE TIME OF jesus. Jesus is a Myth. No part of the Christ story is original. It was all plagiarized from countless previous gods. Your faith is a joke and the jesus of is a jerk , bloodthirsty, not real not worth worshiping. Get real get a real life and really live.
itsasin1969 6 months ago
Yay. Stupid people win every time. Atleast in their own mind.
Pro837 7 months ago
Hehe. Uhm, this is a parody right? This is cutely funny. Unless this is serious, in which case, it's even funnier.
Incrediblemouse5 7 months ago
Uhm... Plato and Aristotle didn't claim to be the son of God..
Get enough followers and you can create an Army, doesn't Nazism still exist? :)
PhoEniKzREBORN 7 months ago
All those who wrote about Jesus NEVER met him!
As a matter of fact --A D ( after Death of Christ)
yet you call this reliable?
flightkiller09 7 months ago
@flightkiller09 You are correct that all those who wrote about Jesus never met him and the writings were several decades after Jesus was suppose to have lived (at the earliest). However, A.D. stands for "Anno Domini" which is Latin for "The Year Of Our Lord"
dhubbard55 7 months ago
@flightkiller09 a couple knew him but they wrote about him after he died because technology was not like it is today
ceaser8999 7 months ago
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lies all lies
doutonight 7 months ago
Is There Any Proof of Jesus Other Than the Bible?
Yes, the Quran.
izan073 7 months ago
If you had lived in ancient Greece you would have believed that Zeus was a real person who had actually lived too and would present written testimonies to prove it. Yet we now know that Zeus was entirely mythical. Also how come only two historians Josephous and Tacticus mention Jesus and only mention him long after his death. How come none of the historians who were actually around in the first century never mention him?
ParagramTree 7 months ago
@ParagramTree There is a lot of reason to believe Josephus actually wrote the N.T. Read some of his stuff and compare, quite similar.
TheEidolon7 7 months ago
@ParagramTree
Actually, Josephus didn't write about Jesus. Only a couple of lines were devoted to Jesus in the entire story, but now scholars have determined that that mentioning of Jesus was inserted by someone else other than Josephus. You have to realize that Josephus was a Jew. He never would have accepted Jesus being the son of any god. That would have been blasphemy.
jaxx89102 7 months ago
Awesome how ALL these writers were BORN after the supposed death of Jesus; yet they write about him as factual?...give me a break; quite wasting your time and effort worshipping the sun...do something productive in the world; try using reasoning and logic for once instead of blindly following the Christian faith; which is derived from robe wearing homo's who didnt even know Jesus, who he was or if he even existed on EARTH...
helltrackrider 7 months ago in playlist Origins
The Holy Bible is the word of God but looking at things from both sides I can see where someone could argue that it was made up a long time ago by a group of men when there wasn't anyone around to check up on it . (Although I don't think men could be wise enough to come up with the things the Savior said .
So read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ which came about in modern times in 2 years through a 19 year old farmboy by the gift and power of God . No other explanation .;)
mollymu1 7 months ago
And yet, none of these writers are contemporary...
changingmyself 7 months ago
did god make dinsours lmao
Mee551able 7 months ago
hi
check my secret video
the true face videos
askingyou4life 7 months ago
LOL King's Meadow Study Center? Yeah, this guy is very convincing.
Ardalla555 7 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues Well skeptical scholars such as Burton Mack, Jewish expert Hyam Maccoby, former Catholic Priest John Dominic Crosson find the historical Jesus to be a Jewish teacher who taught as a Jew and probably did think of himself as the Messiah but could only succeed with God's power, not his own. The early Q document probably presented Jesus' words such as discussion on what to do if an ox is stuck in a ditct on the Sabbath. These skeptics of Christianity find the Christ of faith a myth.
boblackey1 7 months ago
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In 1966, the phrase "In God we Trust" was added to the Dollar Bill, should (In A Dead Middle Eastern Man We Trust As Our New God With Blind Faith) be removed from the American Dollar Bill? I would like to see Abraham Lincoln's QOUTE added on the back of The American Penny, (“The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma”), US President.
MagicTellaVision 7 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues No one wrote about Philo of Judea while he was alive did they? Or many others who are thougth to have lived in the first century and other eras. If someone wrote a history of America in 2060, would you think it was odd if they didn't mention Oral Roberts? Where was Pontius Pilate buried? Or who was he father? Indeed many skeptics claimed he didn't exist until the Pilate stone was discovered in 1961.
boblackey1 7 months ago
@boblackey1 There're artifacts relating to the Greek god Apollo. Does that mean that the Greek god Apollo existed? Your comment is flawed.
Rooker33 7 months ago
@Rooker33 No you are wrong. It is NOT flawed. And that is because almost ALL historians and scholars now accept Pontius Pilate as a historical person due to the discovery of a stone dedicated to Pontius Pilate which lists the dates of his governership as perfect. It is possible that Pilate never existed but very unlikely. Pilate is mentioned in the New Testament, Josephus, Tacitus and other Christian writings. It is possible Jesus never existed but again unlikely.
boblackey1 7 months ago
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While I carry no brief for D'Souza,I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general atheistic social perspectives
shieldsff 8 months ago
I would be an absolute liar to even consider that Jesus was not real. i thank God for the evidence that was left behind becouse it is really convincing if really looked at closely.
PastorPD87 8 months ago
I believe Harry Potter would become the main religion if existed before Bible... Lord Potter... stupidfly!
dvfer444 8 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues U might forget that the whole city of Jerusalem was burned and destroyed barely 40 years after jesus death. And dont forget that for non christians he was just a charlatan who wasnt even worth any attention..
And u mean that christianity would be able to grow up so much, jsut after Jesus death, based on someones lies and fantasies? Do u believe that apostles would live their homes and risk their lifes for a lie??? Does that make sense to u?
greken145 8 months ago
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While I carry no brief for D'Souza,I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general atheistic social perspectives
shieldsff 8 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues The FACTS are that it is LIKELY Jesus of Nazareth lived and was originally a follower of John the Baptist, born between 4 and 7 BC in the fall and was executed by Pontius Pilate about 30 AD and probably the original followers of Jesus in Jerusalem were shocked by his execution and not expecting it. Who wrote about Pontius Pilate while he was alive? Why did a number of scholars DOUBT Pilates existence until an arch was found dedicated to him? Where was Tacitus born? Died? When?
boblackey1 8 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues Well then WHO lived in the early first century of Israel that WAS written about while the writer was alive and the person was alive? If someone wrote a history of America during the 1960's while Oral Roberts was alive, would you be surprised they didn't mention him? The vast majority of historians and scholars find Josephus writing about Jesus and Tacitus too. Also Burton L. Mack, Phd who is an agnostic scholar on Christian origins finds Jesus in the oldest layer of Q.
boblackey1 8 months ago
@ThevanGoghBlues Have you read stuff on Josephus?
themotionaddict2 8 months ago
This is a stupid interview. While the evidence is mostly true, this guy is a joke. He is completely biased. "No other manuscript could stand up to opposition by skeptics such as this." The REASON it stood up is because it is a religion. The same thing applies to Islam, people oppose it. Smart one, sheesh.
MarioFansUnite 8 months ago
Look at it this way they all same the share hell so why not the same god? When someone can answer that question with a real answer then ok. Also if you say there is nothing beyond life you are more retarded then the people that force religion upon others thinking that they know best on something humans can't understand, saying there is nothing is just giving up
Evilspuppet 8 months ago
Ok lol im sorry but i need to comment, why everyone is saying " Accept jesus's etc" i dont understand if you think about it most religions if they are not taken to the extreme stress the same thing good karma bad karma, help others and get rewarded why you need the same god idk just if you think about it looking @ religion as seperate things is dumb if they all have the same purpose kind of like windows and mac they are different but do the same thing just in different ways
Evilspuppet 8 months ago
I still find it funny how christians say it is a sin to lie but seem to be so prolific at lying to themselves and others to prove their god existed? 1st and second century books come on. I want actual texts and maybe a census from that time. There were scholars at the supposed time of Jesus where is they're writing about Jesus? You won't find any because there isn't any the gospels are lies created nearly a hundred years after his supposed death. Real and reliable, really wake up people.
corktech 8 months ago
@corktech you have a point...! I agree...!
DELBOY01509 8 months ago
@corktech ok im neither christian or against christian im just a guy with a open mind but anyways the proof besides the bible is the templers of christ follow their history that will get you BC even though they are called the templers of christ and they became templers/knights by using the blanket of christ, the blanket exists thats proof, jesus's existed just weather he was the son of god or just a really smart guy with some good tricks dunno
Evilspuppet 8 months ago
@Evilspuppet Sorry templar myths just don't convince me.
corktech 8 months ago
@chanceacalton so true
urmommaisfattt 8 months ago
I've read a good amount of Crossan's and Borg's books and don't find them to be anti-Jesus, especially as a historical Jewish figure. Borg has a great and inspiring take on Jesus' ministry in my view. Crossan's "In Search of Paul" has a picture of what is considered to be the only archeological evidence of Jesus. Both men differ with some of the mainstream Christian interpretations of Jesus' message and life, but that's what real theology is about.
plbhl 8 months ago
Praise God!
greenhornet123 8 months ago
Academic credability would never allow a Christian document to prove a Christian theory. You can not use the Bible to prove Christianity is true. It is a self containing argument. This man would not allow a Muslim to use the Qu'Ran to back up his/her tradition.
MedievalMind 8 months ago
@MedievalMind I think you have to read up a bit. A Muslim would use that same Bible to back up his/her tradition.
LiftAloft 8 months ago
OK...Sure people believed in many things back then ... Sure... OK...people would attempt to write about whatever to merely support a myth....... what about the the validity of what people are claiming? ...people are merely capable of belief or even denial in just about whatever they choose ...what addresses the claims found in the NT that falsely ridicule , and falsely accuse others .. for non-belief of fairy tales?..... When will you realize that Non-belief is just as important as belief?
D5500S 8 months ago
@D5500S Ok this is youtube you could have said all that with the last sentence cause literally all i got from that is sumthing sumthing belief= non belief
Evilspuppet 8 months ago
Your faith does not look so strong when you are provoked, even by people you consider less intelligent and articulated. Get a grip and please, at least have faith and be a good Christian by embracing your adversary . . .he needs more than you do, if you have faith . . .
gyrowave 8 months ago
Jesus is a dead bastard child. Wake up sheep and cattle. He is no more and nothing less!
MrOregonic 8 months ago
I believe in God as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. --C. S. Lewis
AtheismisSatansBitch 8 months ago
What's jesus doing now? Is he too busy running the universe that he cant pop in from time to time to show people who he is? He's the beginning and the end, he's timeless, yet he stays hidden. He revealed himself to doubting thomas, I think most of us are just asking for the same common courtesy instead of having to rely on our flawed senses and the even more flawed interpretations of man. Whether he was real or not does still not prove he is the one and only true way. answers?
genext7 8 months ago
@genext7 No, we are too busy to see him. Our faith is little and our desire is much.
inedibleedible 8 months ago
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REV 22-16 IS THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR-VENUS WORSHIP--ITS ALL ASTROTHEOLOGY-JESUS IS REPTILLIAN WORSHIP-AND HE WAS BARIED IN SRINIGAR-INDIA--ANYWAYS--CHRISTIANITY IS --A THROW AWAY SOLAR CULT RELIGION WAKE UP-THE SAME STORY WAS RUNNING AROUND THE MED FOR `1000 YEARS BEFORE RA HORUS--MYTHRA-KRISHNA-SAME STORIES --IT CAME THRU THE MEROVIGN BLOODLINE THIS RELIGULOUS NONSENSE
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y-please watch and understand ur own bible
theywarnedus 8 months ago
Not one contemporary. Not one.
Pinage 9 months ago
I did see Jesus face to face in His glotified body some time ago,and milions other people did see Him in person or Spirit,or many other ways. Is not imposible to see God if u realy look.
danseden 9 months ago
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THROWe ALL THOSE THEORIS OUT THE DOOR. ANYWAYS THE REAL 1st TIME DNA WAS NOTICED WAS IN BEGINNINGS OF 1900s n NOW THEY CANT EVEN FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WHAT WITH IT. SO ENOUGH WITH THE BS STORYS.
WillyEMS85 9 months ago
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Can you tell me a story about fiction n then it became real just like the Big Bang Theory or That we all came out of evolution of 1cell? Why arent there animals that can rationalise n conversate with us since we evolved from them? I mean there has to be different levels n not just a sudden difference between humans plants n animals since were constantly evolving huh? WHAT ARE WE GONA EVOLVE TO NEXT SMART GUYS? SOMETYPE OF DRAGON OR ALIEN? NOOOOO
WillyEMS85 9 months ago
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Yes He is. made such an impact like He did,that resulted in the year markings of B.C.BeforeChrist & A.D.is Latin for"AnnoChristi,"in the year of Christ or AnnoDomini (abbreviated as AD)meaning year of our Lord.
WillyEMS85 9 months ago
Why when u talk about God or Jesus Christ theres soo much hate n deni, But when theres a topic about the devil or something dark n satanic, santeria, witchcraft, its amazing n interesting that no one denies or rejects. But they do reject God rite of the bat. What people reject the most is whats truth. That says it all. POINT PROVEN...
Theres so much power n feelings n force to reject God that you can tell He is TRUE and REAL. LOL
WillyEMS85 9 months ago
If JESUS CHRIST never EXISTED. -Why did He make sooo MUCH HISTORY that not one king or person in all of history made such an impact like He did,that resulted in the year markings of B.C.BeforeChrist & A.D.is Latin for"AnnoChristi,"in the year of Christ or AnnoDomini (abbreviated as AD)meaning year of our Lord.Eather way History did recognise his 1st coming,& prove He did Die Crusified in a cross,to Die for our sins
WillyEMS85 9 months ago
The Four Apocryphal Gospels are historically worthless.
garychldress74 9 months ago
1I......( ) HIM
N..a 33m aste
1980theone 9 months ago
20 Centuries of attacks, of course he is counting the years of the Inquasitions when you would be killed if you spoke against Christianity. Yes, he puts all the facts in here. Well not really, but many people will believe him. There is a difference bewteen what you "believe" and what you can "prove". Cut the rhetoric and give us some proof. Oh, there is no proof , so you must resort to rhetoric. Blah, Blah, Blah.
Maber01 9 months ago
its just funny that since we have had high tech recording equipment . there has been no recorded events of angellic or other worldly visitors representing the heavens ... its just silly people still believe this hog wash ... history has been altered by greedy men to suit their cause and we take it for truth ... and christians are blind .. granted there not all idiots but on some level to believe this stuff you are damaged
blueteamleader420 9 months ago
@blueteamleader420 who are you to call Christians blind and damaged? who are you to judge? call me damaged because i believe in something, God save you my friend, and God bless. can't wait to see ur face when Jesus asks you what you did for him.
britishpony 9 months ago
@britishpony . i was raised by christians to be a christian . by the time i was 12 or so i had too many questions that were not able to be answered by the church . so i decided to put it from my thought till i had a reason to believe .. and is your all omnipotent god petty enough to condemn nonbelievers simply because of there choice not to believe in HIM ? even if said person abides by the commandments not because they believe in god but because it suits there own moral code. its a farce.
blueteamleader420 9 months ago
@britishpony... and by the way ... your comment about wanting to see my face when im judged... think about that for a second .... now ... this is your religion were talking about. was that something a good christian would say ... is that something YOUR god would want you to say? .... your whole following is filled with people like you ... ignorent and blind people contradicting your every word with your actions ... christians, muslims, jews, you guys are ALL the same ..
blueteamleader420 9 months ago
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Watch a Pre-January 8th copy of Inception. Listen closely when the actors say imagine, reality, and safe, or point pistols. You'll hear the words, Loughner, offin' her, part of the word Giffords, and much more. Some say they hear, do it.
jamestargetedindiv 9 months ago
@TheDarvus what spare time? You spend all of that trolling youtube.
Humbler25 10 months ago
@Humbler25 "You spend all of that trolling youtube."
Classic fundamentalist. You cannot refute the argument, so you attack the person. You are a primary example of modern Christianity. It is no surprise that people are leaving the church in droves.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Are you as delusional as the one I was discussing with?Are you going to tell me that Josephus was Paul without being able to back it up?That has clearly been refuted.Or are you foolishly going to argue against the historical Jesus.Those are two discussion points that have been going on in this thread that you simply cannot win
One whom chooses to argue those points are fighting a losing battle because the evidence is in my favor. Why use quotation marks if not accurately quoting me?
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 Classic Humbler25 and classic fundie strawmen arguments. You are full of logical fallacites aren't you? Why don't you simply argue against what I post and not desperately try to win with your strawman arguments. I have actually argued for the historical Jesus on many occassions.
They *are* exact quotes. Exactly what are you now going to claim you didn't say?
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 They are not exact quotes at all, you're pretending I said things in a way that I never said them. It's easy for anyone to see through you, all they have to do is go back and read my comments.
You haven't refuted anything and haven't shown that Quirinius was elsewhere. The only thing you've successfully proven is that a census took place in 6 AD. Good for you, that doesn't mean the first census Luke talks about didn't happen ten years earlier.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 "They are not exact quotes at all"
You are either delusional, lying or a troll. (all three?)
TheDarvus said to you 1 week ago "All i do is read - in my spare time obviously.”
You replied to him "what spare time? You spend all of that trolling youtube.”
I quoted you with " You spend all of that trolling youtube."
Now you claim you never said it.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Really... then when did I say this, "Go look yourself, because I don't have any sources." Um, never! You're attempting to put words in my mouth that I never said. So, you can stop lying by saying that was a direct quote.
The "lifesyle" talk is not pathetic, your bitterness would indicate you may have that in common with 90-95% of those I come in contact with over these topics.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 And again you fall back yo the "life style" business. You are really pathetic.
You claimed that a “Latin inscription discovered in 1764” was evidence Quirinius was legate of Syria twice. You were wrong. That inscription does NOT mention Quirinus. So, now you have no evidence Quirinius was legate twice and thus no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census in 6AD.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 excuse me "no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census in 6AD" should read "no extra-biblical evidence he conducted a census prior to 6AD."
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Even you earlier admitted to the 6 AD census, are you now changing your mind? LOL, your the one that provided Josephus to establish the 6 AD census.
So, you refute things by pointing out a book, but don't let me do the same... hypocritical... maybe. Go read one of Stroebel's books and you'll have plenty of evidence to refute all of your nonsense then.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 Please do pay attention. You may not beleive it, but it actually does help the discourse. I already posted a correction to that mistake. it was typo. the evidence is right in front of your eyes and you choose to ignore it. That does seem to be your common mode of behaviour.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 no you didnt... you pretend that I said things I never said and you admit to the census of 6 AD. That is the simple fact.
There is no serious reason not to believe a census took place during the reign of Herod, especially since one took place in 6 AD. Clearly census' were taken during those times. Plus, the word governor, doesn't necessarily mean legate - that's already been explained to you.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 "Plus, the word governor, doesn't necessarily mean legate - that's already been explained to you."
Certainly not by you, because you have no clue. Legate (lat. legatus) is the military title/rank that Quirinius had. When people of that rank were given the governorship of a province, they were referred to as "legate governor". It is basically the same as calling them "military governor" today. Obviously you don't know what you are talking about
jimmo42 9 months ago
@Humbler25 Yes, you can point out *a book*. Which one? Which pages? We both know you are simply fishing, hoping that Strobel made some reference in one of his books. You have never read them, we both know it. In which book does he refute the claim that the “Latin inscription discovered in 1764” does not mention Quirinius? In which book does he give source references for a claim that Quirinius was legate of Syria prior to 6 AD?
And now you are going to come up with something to wiggle out this.
jimmo42 9 months ago
"The Birth of the Messiah" by Father Raymond Brown. Appendix VII "The Census under Quirinius", pg. 547-556. He goes into details of why it would be impossible for Quirinius to have served as legate of Syria prior to 6AD. On pg 550-551, he points out that the inscription you used as evidence did not mentioned Quirinus at all. He states, "The thesis that this is a reference to Quirinius is pure guess".
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Luke used the term "hegemon", which is a broader term than "governor", and may well be referring to the administrative role Cyrenius (Quirinius) was assigned as opposed to being titled as "governor".
Cyrenius' history is indeed well documented. He ruled both Syria and Judea after the year 6 A. D. when Archelaus was deposed as king of Judea.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 'Luke used the term "hegemon"'.
Wrong. He actually used the word "ηεγεμονευο" (hegemonewo) which means "to be leader", "to lead the way " or "to govern". The correct english translation of the original greek should be "while Quirinius was governing Syria". As you can see, the original Greek makes no mention of the actual title or function. So nitpicking about the word "hegemon" is compeltely invalid as that is not the word used. (ηγεμονευοντος της συριας κυρηνιου)
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Actually it's you whom doesn't understand The term Luke uses for Quirinius ‘governorship’ is the general term, hegemon, which in extra-Biblical Greek was applied to prefects, provincial governors, and even Caesar himself. In the Bible it was used as a broad term for procurators and general ‘rulers’. This term applied to Quirinius at MANY times in his political career and, as a general term, Syria would have had several individuals that could be properly so addressed at the same time.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 Welcome to basic biblical Greek:
Luke 2:2 αυτη απογραφη πρωτη εγενετο ηγεμονευοντος της συριας κυρηνιου
As everyone can clearly see, the word "to govern" is clearly a verb (base form ηεγεμονευο) and not a noun. While ηεγεμονευο is often translated like "he was governor" as opposed to "he governed", you can clearly see that Quirinius' title is not specifically stated. You wil also note that Quirinius is in the genitive case, as is Syria (actually "the Syria")
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 that does nothing to diminish anything that I've said about Quirnius' role during his two reigns as "governor"
The census took place during the governorship... Luke (the accurate historian that he is, is establishing the time the event took place.) That should be pretty clear for even someone like you to see.
Humbler25 9 months ago
cont.
On pg. 554 Brown states "There is no serious reason to believe that there was a Roman census of Palenstine during the reign of Herod the Great." Then shortly thereafter, he says "It is doubtful that anyone would have even thought about an earlier census if he were not trying to defend the Lucan accuracy." This is fully annoted with references to all of the source material.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 The purpose of this registration was to record an official declaration of allegiance from all of his subjects to present to Caesar Augustus in celebration of his Silver Jubilee.
History records that Varus was governor of Syria from about 7 B.C. to about 4 B.C. and was not a trustworthy leader. However, Cyrenius was a notable military leader.
Humbler25 9 months ago
Even if all of the historical records are wrong about who was legate in Syria and when, it is still impossible that any census was conducted by Quirinius in Bethlehem prior to 6CE. Because in 6CE the Judean king Herod Archelaus was banished and Judea came under direct control of the Romans. Prior to that, taxes would have been collected by the king and *not* the Romans as in Luke. The very reason this the "first" census under
Quirinius was that Judea was no longer an independant kingdom.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 During the census of 8-7 B.C., Augustus entrusted Cyrenius with Palestine, effectively superseding the authority and governorship of Varus by appointing Cyrenius to a place of special authority. Cyrenius administered in Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C., and later beginning about A.D. 6.
Humbler25 9 months ago
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@Humbler25 "Cyrenius administered in Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C"
Claiming Cyrenius/Quirinius "administered in Syria" "between 12 and 2 B.C" contradicts the extra-biblical sources. Whoever made that statement got it wrong. Compare it with Josephus.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 has been interpreted to refer to Cyrenius as having served as governor of Syria on two occasions.
History records that Cyrenius was on assignment in Syria during this time and was one of the few trusted leaders. It is probable that Varus was on his way out while Cyrenius was taking charge of matters during Luke's narration.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 "A Latin inscription discovered in 1764..."
That is typical of your proof. As I have said repeatedly, that inscription does not mention Quirinius. No serious scholar believes that it is refering to Quirinius. Or can you name one?
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 just because you've said it, doesn't make it true. The Latin inscription states that the subject had twice been the ‘imperial legate’ i.e. the governor, It is likely that Quirinius was appointed an additional legate
So Luke is referring to an earlier governorship of Quirinius before his second appointment in AD 6. As this first tenure would’ve involved leadership of the Roman campaign against the Homanadensian tribe, this would push it right inside the time-frame of Herod’s reign.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 Once again you have failed to address the key point. Even if Quirinius was governor of Syria when Herod the great was king, he would *not* have conducted a census in Bethlehem, as that was the responsiblity of the local king (Herod). You can make up a desperate story to claim Quirinius did conduct a census, but the historical records are against you. Further, making up a story would be lying and lying is a sin, right? You don't want to burn in hell just to be right, now do you?
jimmo42 9 months ago
@Humbler25 I actually enjoy this kind. I like to see Christians make up stories (read: lie) just to be right. Most Christians in the world don't need to lie because they accept the bible has flaws and concentrate on other things like Jesus' message. However, there are so many whose ego forces them to lie in order to be right. What good does it do gain the whole world but lose your soul as an unrepetant sinner (i.e. a liar)? You need not convince me. You just need to convice God.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 no reason to make up stories, because the truth is right there. You can pretend there are historical contradictions in the Bible all you want, but you are only fooling yourself. The facts and historical evidence do not support you despite how badly you may want them to. You seem fueled, not by evidence, considering it's not on your side, and more by a lifestyle that makes you not want to believe. That's your choice, but let's call it what it is.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Well said, although you're probably wasting your time on those who won't look at facts. All they have to do to settle the argument is to have their god make an appearance. Surely it shouldn't be difficult for an omnipotent being that created the universe to just break into the local news some evening and set things straight. Of course, that isn't going to happen. You can't change a closed mind, but thanks for trying. There are none so blind as those...who make shit up.
bensil34 9 months ago
@bensil34 I often enjoy conversation of this type, particulary when they use sites like answerbag as their source which has so-called evidence that I have never heard before. In this case, the answerbag reference talked about Varus, which I had not heard before, so I checked it out. Naturally, the answerbag reference was historically incorrect, but I know have even more information the next time, plus I now know where the answerbag post got its erroneous information.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 It's good to find out the sources, and interesting how they are blindly accepted. Bart Ehrman, a famous former believer and historian with bona fides in this field (he even learned the original languages of the scriptures) argues convincingly for the historical existence of a Jesus figure. He doesn't believe the myths, but is convinced there is evidence for such a person. Check out "The Historical Jesus: Man or Myth?" videos and see what you think.
bensil34 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Luke has proven himself over and over throughout the centuries to be a reliable historian, even in the details. In his making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands, Luke made no mistakes.
FYI, all of this information is copy and pasted so don't bother with another silly rant about that. I'm simply bringing information to you that you fail to seek out for yourself.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 "FYI, all of this information is copy and pasted"
You are relying on answerbag com for your sources?!?!? Oh my goodness!!! Say it ain't so, Joe!!!
I provide sources from eminant biblical scholars and you are using answerbag com?!?!?! Are you *really* so naive as to think that answerbag com is a legitimate source? Someone throws up on the floor and you lap it up saying "hmmm, yummy!!!" Classic fundie "research", swallow anything that supports them even if its wrong. You are sad!
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 within my comments I gave credible historical scholars... go back and reread it again for the references incase you missed them. I copy and paste after web searches to show the obvious. That this information is readily available and to show that your ignorance is of your own choosing. You simply don't have a leg to stand on and everything you've said has been easily refuted.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 I asked for a book reference, not some wiki-like site were any bozo can write utter nonsense. The site is utterly *worthless* for any serious information, the same goes for christiananswers net. I would accept bible org as they provide references. answerbag com is for desperate people who cannot find real answers elsewhere. If you had actually read anything by Strobel (which you referred to) you would have book and page references. You don't as you have never read any of his books.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@Humbler25 I challenge you to find some legitimate source that shows 1) Quirinius was governor of Syria at a time that matches the birth narrative in *Matthew* 2) The position Quirinius held at that time was such that he would have been authorized to conduct a census and tax the jewish people who were actually under the rule of Kind Herod the great. 3) Does not contradict respected sources such as Josephus. Good luck. You'll need a miracle!
jimmo42 9 months ago
@jimmo42 Both scripture and Josephus indicate this was well after Jesus� birth and Herod�s death (Mat 2:1,16,22; Antiquities 17.8.1-4, 17.13.1-5;18.1.1-6). Armenian historian Moses of Khorene (Armenian History 2:26) says that in 3 B. C. Roman authorities came to Armenia to set up images of Caesar Augustus in the temples of the area. These same sources state that it was the registration mentioned in Luke which brought them there.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 "You haven't refuted anything and haven't shown that Quirinius was elsewhere."
Yes, I have. I pointed you to the book "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown, a Roman Catholic priest and biblical scholar. PM me your email address and I will send you copies of the pages where he proves that the Quirinius could not have conducted a census that matches the chronology in Matthew. Therefore, either Matthew was wrong or Luke. Take your pick.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@TheDarvus Loving the way you refuse to read hundreds of pages of evidence because you're afraid it will force you to reexamine your lifestyle. Actually, not loving it, because its very sad. Your ignorance is of your own choosing because knowledge is readily available.
Humbler25 10 months ago
@TheDarvus How about you read a book and find it out for yourself? What are you afraid of? I know it may force you to reconsider your lifestyle, but that would be a good thing. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Go pick up one of Stroebel's books instead of just trolling his videos. It will be good for you.
Humbler25 10 months ago
"Man" or humans, have evolved over thousands of years, especially the human brain. It's this brain that is in question. Just 1500 years before Jesus; man invented the "wheel"(wow).
Man a few thousand years ago had know idea that death was automatic for humans at a certain average age, thats how stupid we were. Just 500 yrs ago we were burning people at the stake for accusations of witch-craft, and we also as humans thought the earth was square until about 1490. So 2000 yrs ago the bible LOL
TheShipin 10 months ago
@TheDarvus Jesus Christ was a very real individual and all the evidence proves that fact. This is history we are talking about here, not what you have made up in your own head. Lots of evidence for Paul too! You still have zero evidence to support Josephus being Paul and zero evidence to support the Gospels being a satire of anything. You have nothing! Even someone as dense as yourself should realize that by now.
Humbler25 10 months ago
@Humbler25 What evidence? Please tell the world your findings.
herbalbuzz 9 months ago
@herbalbuzz What findings? Go read a book on it, plenty out there
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 There are plenty of books on Santa Clause as well, still no evidence of him though, but tell that to a 5 year old.. Go figure!
Yes, it's the exact same thing!
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan
herbalbuzz 9 months ago
@herbalbuzz It's not the same thing at all because the books on Jesus use historical documentation to back up the findings. Nothing extraordinary about examining the evidence for the historical Jesus and realizing that he's very real indeed. That is why historians the world over (even atheist ones) acknowledge that fact.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 It's all good, I don't push my beliefs on people and expect the same in return, who I am to judge?
To many people, to many religions, to many problems. I chose not to believe in blind faith and live my life with what i see and what I learn with facts, it works for me.
Peace out!!
herbalbuzz 9 months ago
@herbalbuzz Fair enough! The Christian faith is far from blind though.
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 ..... keep telling yourself that buddy
blueteamleader420 9 months ago
@blueteamleader420 Do what, keep telling the truth? I will!
Humbler25 9 months ago
@Humbler25 It's pretty sad that the same "historical documentation" you claim some proves Jesus (e.g. Josephus) contradicts the bible. When the documents support your position, you insist they are valid. However, they are wrong when they go against your position. You are trully a sad individual.
jimmo42 9 months ago