Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 2

[1tabligh]

We can raise precisely the same objection against the atheists and ask them, "If we follow the chain of causality back, we will ultimately reach the primary cause. Let us say that cause is not God, but matter. Tell us who created primary matter. You who believe in the law of causality, answer us Ws: if matter is the ultimate cause of all things, what is the cause of matter?

You say that the source of all phenomena is matter-energy; what is the cause and origin of matter-energy?"

[bluebanshee3]

in schizophrenia, does everything become more emotionally salient? (strong connectivity between amygdala and temporal lobe.) and since the left temporal lobe has reduced gray matter (broca's, wernicke's, the language centers related to linear logic), are things interpreted as having connections or patterns when there are none (ex.: conspiracy theories--unrelated events are seen as having great significance.)

innate pattern-seeking gone awry...

[yummit7]

@bluebanshee3 I think that's what schizophrenia is actually..."innate pattern-seeking gone awry" indefinitely so. 

[bluebanshee3]

right temporal: experiential, non-linear. left temporal: broca's, wernicke's, linear, language-oriented.

left temporal lobe, reduced gray matter, schizophrenia.

what about temporal lobe to amygdala, connectivity? how does it work? how would it relate to schizophrenia?

[isleofyew1]

Ah, driftwood !

[ReviewCam]

I have TLE and only recently had an episode of post ictal bliss. Very stranger but incredible at the same time

[Ihatemelee]

i like how he rolls all of his "r"s

[godno1god]

If my brain produced the best music ever, then does this mean that I am a genius composer? This explanation doesn’t make sense. Visions are happening inside my head, but the visions are so imaginative and so original, even better than CGI and more imaginative than any piece of art I have ever experienced. Then am I a genius artist too? Epileptics are describing vistas of weirdness like this. How are they producing all this stuff thats more real than this world? Strange stuff.

[godno1god]

Similar to the ontological argument in philosophy... The ontological argument basically asks how can my mind generate these vistas of titanic visual fireworks? My mind is not imaginative but these things I am seeing are beyond my level of imagining! Its an interesting avenue of exploration, don't you think?

[godno1god]

But emotions come after the event don't they? I mean, epileptics report proper high definition visions, like solid mountains and fire breathing monsters with great music playing with it. Its strange to read the descriptions isn't it. Similar to the ontological argument in philosophy.

[GodsArePeopleToo]

i want to thank you for posting these videos. i had a month-long episode of se (seizures, 24/ 7) some years ago and couldn't get any answers from doctors as to what had happened to me, why i was so emotional, why i couldn't perceive things properly (some things i still can't), why i literally thought i was going insane. i was so desperate at the time, i got depressed over the lack of communication.

getting a lot of the answers here almost made me cry

pfffft

[ReviewCam]

@GodsArePeopleToo what a wonderful comment. you conveyed everything in words I could not. I also had an extremely long TLE status epilepticus...I thought it was only with gran mal, but TLE is so scary and intense and at times blissful. Doctors didn't understand and to be honest, I don't think they cared

[GodsArePeopleToo]

@ReviewCam - til that episode, i only ever had petit mal (since, too). after i got out of the hospital, i had 1 gm, but still had a lot of resid effects of the seizures i'd had (which was every kind there is, ugh), including anorexia, which i knew wasn't psych. i couldn't even get help w/ that. i had some doctors argue w/ me over things like i CAN tell a lot of times when i'm having a seizure, why i hyper-ventilate, parts of my hand being numb. i seriously don't know why they're in the field.

[godno1god]

Some epileptics claim to hear beautiful music, and the doctor says the brain is producing the music, however, the epileptic is not a Mozart or a Beethoven. So the obvious question to ask is this; where is the music coming from, or who or what is making the music in the epileptics head? The same can be asked with the visions of heaven some epileptics claim to see. They say the visions are more beautiful than any artist can create.So what is generating all this beauty and artwork in the head?

[GodsArePeopleToo]

@godno1god you asked 'So what is generating all this beauty and artwork in the head? '

emotion

[whyabadi]

Looks likes something Mohammad has experienced.

[godno1god]

@whyabadi I'm reading a book on Muhammad's psychological make-up by Ali Sina. Sina argues that Muhammad suffered from the same temporal lobe epilepsy as this guy.

[whyabadi]

@godno1god Definitely worth investigating.

[Erobeashema]

You Tube "August 2009 Mind Experiment: Transcendence; Seeing everything as infinite oneness." And tell me what you think.

[zencat999]

more info about the neurological origins of religion

go watch this.

Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09

[tatliborek]

I wish I could work with him on consciousness....

[tatliborek]

His connection and infnite compession is so normal at this state because he can overcome the fixation of self centered perception and can perceive the domino effect of every movement in the existence without any pre-evaluation on the contrary at equal value.His perception is not consumed by medulla but expanded to the whole of his brain.

Also watch Jill Taylor at TED for a similiar experience of expansion of consciousness.

[zencat999]

@tatliborek @tatliborek he needs medical help for a disease you fool! thats NOT enlightenment.

you would keep this kid having violent debilitating seizures just to satisfy some warped idea of some kind of superstitious non sense?

THAT would be insanely immoral.

is that the kind of god(s) you follow?

go watch this and then go think about your delusion.

Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09

[tatliborek]

His connection and infnite compession is so normal at this state because he can overcome the fixation of self centered perception and can perceive the domino effect of every movement in the existence without any preevaluation on the contarary at equal value.His perception is not consumed by medulla but expanded to the whole of his brain.

Also watch Jill Taylor at TED for a similiar experience of expansion of consciousness.

[tatliborek]

His connection and infnite compession is so normal at this state because he can overcome the fixation of self centered perception and can perceive the domino effect of every movement in the existence without any preevaluation at equal value.His perception is not consumed by medulla but expanded to the whole of his brain.

Also watch Jill Taylor at TED for a similiar experience of expansion of consciousness.

[bruceleeC64]

i love his rolling rrrr's

[Juefawn]

This guy should read Spinoza.

[20cigarrosconfiltro]

LSD

[weaselidiotu]

@20cigarrosconfiltro definitely!

[hymnofashes]

Yes, the prophets were floppers on the ground. Exactly. Yes.

[Ramshobraja]

This video shows that god is a construct of the mind and nothing real.

[Atheist603]

damn...I love science

[trombilly]

@Atheist603 makes me think that religion satisfies the parts of the brain that sience satisfies but without any evidence to back it up , just a request that you believe without question........... that seems quite a crazy thing to do, mind you if reversed, the stories created by the script writers of religions can be good parallels for science and as stories we can still learn alot about application ......... I guess the realm of tarot enters the arena too.

[Atheist603]

@trombilly yeah, i gree

[trombilly]

@Atheist603 do you ever think that we might have had (in times past)a fuller understanding of things, and that we created theses stories/ parallels as a kind of time capsule reminder in prep' for a predicted lowering of conciousness due to universal changes, that... as we wake up from our predicted 'sleep' (when the universal conditions are ....particular) we (or our dna) will activate further, and that science (as we know it) offers us a language of discovery to this purpose? am I a hippy?

[fjanton83]

@trombilly what you said to Atheist603 in the last comment, I believe in too. So, this is a experience, but it is collectively created, I think. It could as well be individually created :) And noone really knows anything. Why do we have monkey-bodies? How did we get here? Why didn't we have dolphin bodies, when the ocean is bigger then our surface?

[maximuscleprogain]

LMAO!!...... *SLAP* Get a hold of yourself you blubbering fool! hahahahha

[psybmw]

Sounds like my LSD experience!

[yellowlynx]

@psybmw LSD works very much like those neuro-stimulus that affected our emotions, perceptions, thoughts and even spiritual experience.

[comradechristophe]

i had the same realizations on mushrooms pretty interesting stuff

[Esoparagon]

40 billion years? lol lol lol "Current theory and observations suggest that the universe is 13.75 billion years old"

[TheElhunt]

@Esoparagon clearly you missed what he was saying or what the overall point was. hes talking about how this experience has changed him and how he feels that in the far future we will evolve to something more beautiful than what we are. this saddens me because im stuck here, right now, with your ignorance. but only for a moment.

[Braxmetal]

hmm, I'm not sure if this really sounds like thaaaaaaat much of a problem to me. he's become selfless? I've always thought that was a good quality. sure he's got some wack-ass ideas, but this isn't really the worst thing that could happen in my opinion. or at least so far, I haven't watched the rest yet, maybe it gets nuttier.

[busyworksbeats]

your dumbass got possessed by a demon, idiot, you aint a god

[LUXBeaker]

rrrains rrreepeatedly 1:42

[busyworksbeats]

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[LUXBeaker]

rrraains rrreepeatedly, this guy is a joke 1:43

[incrediblejessen]

@LUXBeaker are you seriously calling the world's greatest neuroscientist a joke?

[billyg89]

jesus christ he loves ethnic cleansing

[intestinomedicino]

Jesus loves ethnic cleansing?

[zyghiwa]

stability in society...

[Ramsez]

you're a little extreme, but some of it is true. However, this has nothing to do with dr. Ramachandran's work ...

[Ramsez]

where's part 3?

[muthushiv]

Well, I think the original question of God may be an intellectual one, rather than some electrical wiring. Indeed a rational conclusion. Look at the possibility how the early humans would have thought.... He saw some intelligence to make a pot, somebody had to mould a clay and then he has to labor for it to obtain a pot. Similarly after observing the dimensions around him, He also saw some unexplainable events beyond his intellect. Probably he got an intelligent personality called GOD.

[thruthem]

Also see Neurotheology - Michael Persinger Playlist on my channel!

[randles22]

He's racist

[BlondeDisorder]

LOL

[seerway]

blech on the stability of society part at the end. ramachandran rules though

[Tzambissamo]

I wonder if this neural 'g-spot' is more a mechanism that allows us to deal with things we do not understand.I have feelings of reverence and awe when studying when I study the human perceptual system,is this feeling 'religious'?Many religious beliefs are an attempt to understand the mysteries of the universe, but with little or no actual knowledge.I wonder if my feelings are located or correlated with Ramachandran's 'g-spot'and can be explained as a compensatory mechanism of non-understanding.

[banjohole]

..which is probably what happened at the beginning when religions came to form and how the initial connections with anything divine got obstructed when people could not differentiate from what was coming from their higher mind(connected to oneness) or lower mind(connected to fear), hence why a religion like the catholic one is all about fear (I was born roman catholic),if you don't follow the "holy" commandements,u go to hell apparently.

[banjohole]

His mental reasong in justifying ethnic cleansing shows mostly a good example of how,with his new found awarness/thinking,he can see things in a whole new light and probably find many reasons to justify alot of the negative in the world.What ths guy hasn't realized yet is that he will experience postive and negative thoughts/new beliefs,and has got to b aware of not falling into the trap of following his negative side or he will start reverting away from the wonderful Oneness experience he had

[b4skin]

"G-spot", now THAT'S precious!!!!!

[drwindow1]

This explains many things.

[soundoflight]

The severe lack of confidence in imagination of oneself is the cause of religions persistences.

[meret99]

Tell me - if this sort of occurence can actually make a person rise above himself and experience oneness or love with all created beings - is that a bad thing? Real or illusion, the result is wonderful and creates a great self belief too.....as long as it does not then turn into a cultist belief with "flocks" and the whole paraphernalia of structured religion.

[b4skin]

Feel that way and give me a field report from the alligator pit and i'll show you a real-world example of 'why that would be a problem'.

[Shemjazashai]

whoa... that guy just admitted to justifying ethnic cleansing in his head...

..but not like the idiots with sheets on their heads.. wtf ahahaha

this guy is tripping so hard on himself that this kind of thinking IS what sprouts into cultist belief and structured religion... in a very dangerous way.  If he didn't have his dad I think he'd end up hurting himself or others.

[RJPaulson]

It's may be a bad thing for exactly what he said. "I thought about it, and you know, 'ethnic cleansing is right', and I just justified it in my head."

It could be a bad thing, or it might be okay, but most importantly, there is much more to learn about this and test. More hypothesis and experiments could be generated with this knowledge, and it may lead to a better understanding of spiritual experience in both the normal and abnormal brain.

[meret99]

Definitely, you are so right...ethnic cleansing is not only bad, its can only come from an abnormal, evil mind. I had only thought about the part when everything around you assumes a deep significance that might be dismissed by many people but makes the individual who experiences this, very happy and complete and connected. Of course, it might be hard to sift the abnormal experience from the normal one and this is the frightening part.

[BlondeDisorder]

I think the lesson is to not cling to one's own beliefs. If we just look at it without being attached to the belief, we can analyze it more truthfully. It's like analzying a dream.

[meret99]

Sure...and hence, after this quest, come to a different set of beliefs...can one really live without some kind of belief?

[BlondeDisorder]

Once a belief is questioned by the person who holds the belief, it ceases to be a belief by definition. There is no word for a belief that is questioned skeptically by the "believer". I'd call it an idealief. Can I make up a new word? LOL

An idealief is an idea which is believed to a certain extent but it is not clung to as one would a typical belief. It is a thought which is constantly challenged without an ego agenda. It's a very rare thing, even for scientists.

[meret99]

What a fantastic new word..yes! An idealief world is what would probably be an ideal world...not rigid but rigorous in its questioning....but in the end, wouldn't the quest want to end logically in some kind of experience-belief / personal knowing? Of course, one could curl up at the end of one's life in the shape of a tolerant question mark, but that would only be at the intellectual level. Experientially, wouldn't that be vaguely unsatisfying?

[daveymilla]

the conscious mind is a small boat which sails upon an ocean. that ocean is the greater you which incompasses deep beliefs that you cannot normally consciously grasp. As an example -my lucid dreaming taught me that my conscious wanting to fly could not always override my belief that I had weight and was too heavy to fly - certainly rationalizations did not help. We are layered beings. Mental/idea level beliefs are like furniture on our boats - much deeper currents direct us from below.

[dmastarew5217792]

If you saw part 1 of this video he also said that sometimes he feels terrible and just "wants to be whipped to death". The seizures create extremes in his mind where he either feels good or absolutely terrible. This phenomenon also disorients him after the seizures and scrambles his emotions. I think the negative effects of this case greatly outway the postitive "oneness" feeling.

[Mephistophilus]

"wants to be whipped to death" I found it interesting that he phrased it that way.

Epileptics usually have lower serotonin and melatonin levels. The "oneness" might be related to a sudden release of serotonin during his seizures.

3:40 - 4:10 That's where I think religion started.

[DarinTeven1988]

thats exactly what it is, i have the same problem myself, although i tend to become more atheistic as i was raised a strict catholic but many many psyciatrists have put my seizures down to psycosis due to lack of serotonin but when im on ssri drugs i get these "high" feelings aswell although they are very few and far between .. watching thisvideo has had an effect on me because watching that guy was like seeing myself from 3rd person view :O for years i couldd never understand what was happenin

[Steve99jp66]

As someone who has had TLE seizures I can attest to the feeling of 'all things being imbued with emotional salience.' That's definitely part of the experience. I also understand it is likely due to 'faulty wiring.' But I don't like the attitude--which even Dr. Ramachandran seems to accept--that this experience is simply a brain mistake or disorder, a confusion about what's significant or a kind of emotional hyperactivity. (cont)

[Steve99jp66]

I would have liked for the doctor to ask his patient not only what he experienced, but how he felt ABOUT the experience and how he INTERPRETS it. TLE is not schizophrenia; even during seizures or during the aura patients can accurately distinguish what is real and what is taking place in the brain. This patient's case is extreme, but I think his talk of 'being God' is more an expression of feeling than a delusional belief. (cont)

[Steve99jp66]

When I first had this experience I thought it was a religious revelation, but not like God spoke to me and told me the future. Just that God had opened my mind so that I could see the 'truth of existence,' the supreme beauty and perfection in all things. I also had extremely vivid flashback-type memories of places from my childhood, hyper-real and imbued with an unbelievable sense of nostalgia. For me, this was all part of the 'revelation.'

[meret99]

True - perhaps the patient's expression of feeling is the total identification with the Universe as he experienced it. And when a person feels one with creation, then one is God to that extent, as part of the Supreme Consciousness, not as sole Creator - "aham brahmasmi" as the ancient Hindu sages put it.

[radurak]

I agree, its not exactly valid to declare such things a brain failure, since pretty much everything that you feel, know or do has some kind of representation in the brain.

[decreation]

...Jesus?

[ShalloeThought]

You dont want to buy a second hand car from this guy !!

[spazolio]

"With out science, religion is blind. With out religion, science is lame"- Albert Einstein

[pyroclasm32]

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. -Albert Einstein, 1954

[gunz543]

@pyroclasm32 and this is where the argument began. I personally understand and believe that statement to be 100% true while on the other hand understand the perspective in which man feels it necessary to put a face and name to that "structure" to better understand these scientific concepts in our daily lives and to perhaps lead the sheep in a direction of growth. I look at the golden ratio and see how it relates to man in that we have a infinite compacity to ascend consciously..

[gunz543]

@pyroclasm32 there is a religious and scientific way of interpreting life, choose one.. I choose all forms of truths and grow without depriving myself of experiencing the bliss of the higher concepts of reality, by putting myself above or below my brothers and sisters ideas or perspective of truth.

[sciencedoggy]

No external motivator, kids, no gods.

[humanist7117]

Is anything so hardwired that a conscious awareness of it would render it impossible for a person to change it, control it?

[richidpraah]

color?

[humanist7117]

Good!

[richidpraah]

sadly i'm colourblind..

[cmmndrblu]

Perhaps we should consider that part of our definition of reality; our ability to distiguish real from fiction, is emotional salience. That would also explain why a system of emotional salience such as religion, requires belief in it a) as equally emotionally salient as reality (ie real) and b) why it must be faith (because there is no proof)

[anatomy1993]

STFU Jesus freaks, god inst real its a fairy tale!! I'm a freshman and i already figured it out!! I respect anatomy and I'm not going to let it get trashed by Jesus freaks who claim all this bull shit is a reality!!!

[djifnf]

'God' is just as much a fairy tale as love is. Neither can be totally proven by science, except that they're surely felt by people. It's real that people perceive 'God' (or love), and that's all that matters to them. Both phenomena have documentable mental occurrences, and that shouldn't be denied.

Explaining the brain's processes involved in religiousness can't prove OR disprove any particular religious beliefs. So I don't see why this information should threaten any religious people.

[August1977]

The fact the 'patient' is concerned with 'social and ethical issues' indicates that the TL is a gateway to the collective consciousness, i.e. the bicameral brain function.

[Toolshed76]

Ramachandran may end up being the Einstien of our time. And he's funny as hell!

[1PHAEDRUS]

Listening to him talk about having "The weight of the world on your shoulders" rings so close to home. I really was fascinated by his analogy of several frontal temporal lobe seizures eventually scarring deeper and deeper over time. I have had 1000's of GM's since '98, They said it was viral encephalitis, I don't know what happened, I just awoke from a coma 28 days after going status. More power to all of us, and education to those that need it. Peace

[holczhammer]

Is this happens to males, right?

[Jeswinjb]

His studies have not been established as a true fact and has not really accepted by the other scientists.

[holczhammer]

Who are the other scientists u refer to?

[LIBqueen]

Fascinating, yet I am not 100% sure of the interview. V.S.R. could be positively reinforcing them with his smiles, nods, suggestions, etc. to say what he wants to hear.

[shoulihan37]

Hey Doc, 37 year old former Board Member of the Epilepsy Foundation. I had seizures for 12 years, from Diet Coke / ASPARTAME. I hope you're aware of the connection?

[achamthavilthan]

fascinating analysis. the connection between temporal lobe&amygdala may be plausible. Heightened sensitivity& identification with the whole universe is

a sign of transcendental experience-I´ve had it without

being an epileptic-as an out of-the-body experience!

[ButThenAgain]

Check out Ramachandran's talk on that subject at the "Beyond Belief" seminar. Just put those words in Google and you'll find the entire series available online. He can teach you why your OOBE is also explainable by neurology.

[achamthavilthan]

Thanks for your comments.I have checked it. I am not

satisfied with his explanations.Actual experience gives

me something I cannot fathom with words at all-I believe in some Godly communication--i cannot explain it away either...that is why for me it is transcdental--

[intensebfk]

I have temporal lobe epilepsy too

[authalic]

These clips (if I remember correctly) are from a PBS special which was based on Ramachandran's book "Phantoms in the Brain".

[therealrealeuan]

ive just bought that book today

[ucsdtijuanero]

that religious experience tends to occur to patients who have near death experiences for similar reasons. There is extreme activity in the brain, kind of like epilepsy, which can be interpreted as "the light".

[poppysummer]

I wonder if he would give up this affliction if he could.

And I love how charismatic Dr. Ramachandran is.

[JadoJodo]

Fascinating video series.