Not quite the revival you may have hoped for...

[rclay5857e]

Man alive! I thought I had seen it all, but some of these clips are far beyond the "manifestations" we saw in the Jesus Movement and the Charismatic Movement in the 1960-70's. I know that some of the things I saw were of God; they resulted in truly changed lives, documented healings, and many wonderful examples of the power of God's love. But nothing I saw in those old days was anything like the wildness, the animalistic laughter and behavior, the "drunkenness" of these preachers. Find JESUS!!

[darlacompany]

have you ever heard the term accuser of the brethren? Spend some time with God, seriously.

[smarksbury]

@darlacompany The same God who calls us to discernment? I'm with you. :)

[XxJosielxX]

way too fast...

[yamnema]

booo.

[the1branch]

Appreciate the clip.. I listened real fast. It

would take me 15 minutes to say what was said. But in the end it was a legitimate testimony & should be heard.

WOTM Radio Rocks

[HotKebab]

The audio in this is going too fast.

[frankielee77]

Why should the way of the Master be used as a tool for the Devil?That is to criticize other ministries?

[smarksbury]

We are commanded to discern and test the spirits. The real tool of the devil is the myth that Christians must accept spiritual deception from someone like Todd Bentley without questioning it. That is how Christians end up following after the doctrines of demons.

[BearingtheLight]

Yup. Couldn't agree more. It's a real truth and it's a tragedy that these things are occurring...but they must happen so that Scripture will be fulfilled.

[gingerjew1948]

Examine why you hate Christianity so much. Christians believe we have all sinned against a perfect, all powerful, loving and good God. The punishment for this is death and eternal separation from God (hell). The only way to reconcile man to God was a perfect Christ dying for us and taking our deserved punishment so that we can enjoy the riches of eternal communion with God. That is not fair, you are correct. But the Christian thanks God for such an act of love and grace. 

[gingerjew1948]

A new drug is not new info on the genome! What do you believe in magic bacteria or magic drugs? There is no example of info being added to a genome via mutation. Another article of faith for the naturalist.

Ok pick a couple of minor points and have an uneducated blast. I'm bored of this.

[gingerjew1948]

Do you understand how bacteria become resistant? Clearly not. This is so tiresome having to explain this. An antibiotic works by attacking/inhibiting a protein produced by a bacteria, that causes the bacteria to die. The resistant bacteria don't mutate and magically (your favourite mock) produce new information to fight the antibiotic. They mutate and lose the gene that produces the said protein from their genome. Therefore the antibiotic has no effect. That is a loss of information.

[gingerjew1948]

Michael Behe's science wasn't attacked because it is sound it was his motives. They painted him as a fundamentalist creationist in order to discredit him. Pathetic, don't mess with naturalistic dogmas. Nothing was created, nothing was created, if we say it over and over again surely everyone will believe even in the face of FACTS. You also didn't address information, pure luck or vitality.

[gingerjew1948]

Ok blood clotting is the prime example of an irreducibly complex system. On whose authority can you say there are none? Because Dawkins says so? The zoologist? Michael Behe is a proper scientist, a biochemist. When was the last time the human race benefited from anything coming out of the church of evolution aka biology faculties? Do you understand what an irreducibly complex system is?

[gingerjew1948]

No naturalist I've heard of has started to ascribe morals to animals... well yet...good luck with that one. Is survival of the fittest fair? For a naturalist it doesn't matter one persons fair is another's unfair but neither carries any more weight than the other.

Don't start commenting on Christian morality when you don't even have a grasp of your own. 

[gingerjew1948]

Fair and unfair are viewpoints based on moral positions. Morals are a judgement between good and bad. 'I believe it is wrong to steal, someone has stolen from me that is not fair'. In a naturalistic world-view you believe in a subjective morality. But the logical conclusion of subjective morality is that no morality is better than anyone else's (it is immaterial if that person believes in an objective or subjective morality) and you can get a society where murder and rape are virtues.

[gingerjew1948]

Oh you don't believe matter is eternal but energy is. Well that's me put in my place again. Where does the information come from? Does energy create information and matter, is it your God? Energy is eternal another faith statement, brilliant.

Have I said I am a Christian? No I have just tried to show you that your beliefs are just as much based on articles of faith as the Christians you delight in mocking. Honestly do I have to define everything for you.

[gingerjew1948]

I see you are rattled which was not my intention but an added bonus. I know the worldview is naturalistic but there is no naturalistic worldview in this age without evolution they are synonymous. That one put me in my place though. Greek philosophers were having this same argument over 2000 years ago its just they didn't hide behind the so called 'scientific' or 'educated' theory of evolution.

Everything has a natural explanation' another faith statement. Incredible you are doing my job for me.

[Chroniclesoflaughter]

Guys, ahhhh.

Is healing biblical? You need to listen to Todd bently's message called SOZO. Check out Voice of healing days, Smith Wigglesworth.

Did Jesus heal people?

Did Jesus Diciples Heal people?

Did Jesus tell his diciples to heal the sick?

Are we in 2008, Diciples of Jesus?

Is Healing in the Atonement?

Why Was Jesus Body whipped and beaten?

WOTM is such a good course to learn when it comes to street evangelism, it's just a pity that they critise other parts of Christ Body

[smarksbury]

Well, allow me a couple of questions:

Did He command all His disciples to heal?

Are we part of that group He commanded to heal?

Is there evidence that the healing provided in the atonement has immediate physical applications?

Is there evidence that this healing has application beyond restoration with God?

I don't deny God heals today, even miraculously (meaning outside of human or natural intervention). However, I wouldn't advise folks to visit this "revival" if they are in need of healing.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

I do deny that god heals.

I have evidence to show this.

Prayer fails to improve ones health statistically.

Amputees are never healed, no matter how much faith or prayers are offered. Zero cures.

is it that God fails to answer?

or

is it that there is no god to answer?

[smarksbury]

I would be curious to see the source material on that. Specifically, what was the the makeup of the group sampled?

I've seen contradictory statistics, but I guess I would have to question whether one could ever have a valid sampling to evaluate such a thing. One large problem, for instance, is that the Bible says God most often uses secondary means, so people who pray and are healed by a trained physician have reason to thank God as well as the doctor.

[Chroniclesoflaughter]

We don't understand the charactor and nature of God from statistics, the bible shows us who and what God is like, we can't base what we believe about God on circumstance, or natural means, we will come into wrong belief. Does the Bible reveal God as a healer, it is one of his names Jehova Rapha.

If you read the voice of healing newspapper from the 50's and wacth God's generals you will see simialir testimonies of body parts growing back.

[rclay5857e]

@JohnDeBunkTest Healing is about a relationship with a being, not a ride on a bus that you get by buying a ticket. You speak of healing as if it was apart from the healer, as it it's a debatable issue. I have a son. When he falls off his bike and badly scrapes his knee, I run to him, I hold him, and I comfort him. i cleanse his wound, but much more, I comfort his emotions. All this is healing. The body takes time to grow new cells; but it is programmed to do that! What we need is the love part.

[Chroniclesoflaughter]

Jesus is the exact reprensentation of the father, Heb 1:3. Jesus healed ALL, Mat 4:23-25, 8:16, 9:35, 12:15, 14:14,

Also notice pslam 103, forgives all your sin and heals ALL your deisease.]

Because Jesus is the exact represenatation of the fater, we don't seee him not healing everyone anywhere in scripture, that would give a wrong picture of the heart of God towards his people.

Mat 10:1, the command for diciples to heal, also we are to become like Jesus and do what he did. Luke 10:9.

[Chroniclesoflaughter]

the command is givenb to the 70, to heal. jesus Prayer is on earth as it is in heaven. Also 1 Peter 2:24, forgivenss of sin and healing. Look up the word Sozo, it means salvation, healing and diliverance and examine the context it is used in, Joel 2:32, acts 2:21, Mat1:21, Rom 10:13, luke 8:36, mark 5:34, James 5:15

[smarksbury]

The key question is whether or not Bentley is a false prophet from a biblical standpoint, Chronicles. I discuss this more in-depth on my blog I linked above, if you are interested, brother.

God Bless!

[JohnDeBunkTest]

The classifications of people who are "faith healed"

1 ) those who were never sick in the first place

2 ) those who 'don't have enough faith' and are still sick

3 ) those who have already died of their illnesses.

If there really was a deity, scams like this one would not exist.

[smarksbury]

I don't understand why the existence of God would stop such sensationalism. For instance, barbers exist, and there are people in need of haircuts. It is plausible for both deity and false religion to coexist, and the existence of the God of the Bible (as well as the veracity of the biblical text) provides for such a scenario.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

no.

If God exists he is an idiot and a scamp.

Think ... if you were god, would you let people suffer diseases? Would you let the sick be subjected to scams like 'faith healing' ... Not unless you were a cold hearted B.

The Bible is wrong, and there is no god, and we should have laws against people scamming the sick.

[smarksbury]

Well, there are more options than you list to make the thing plausible. But I agree that it is heart-wrenching.

Since the Bible speaks of sickness and evil, provides explanation for it, warns of folks like this who will prostitute Jesus Christ, and proves itself in testable arenas, I don't believe that any of this disproves the Bible.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

You agree it is heart wrenching, yet you still believe in the god letting it happen, and even worship this supposed being.

Enjoy your hopes of an afterlife.

I could not bring myself to worship this sort of a deity even if I knew it existed.

[smarksbury]

Because of pain and suffering, I find it difficult *not* to believe the Bible. Everything in me says suffering is wrong (a feeling you seem to share). If all is "matter and motion" and evolution is the truth of the day, then suffering is a welcomed part of the progressive process. The death of the weak is a good thing in the naturalistic system, something I cannot accept.

The Bible alone provides an explanation for all that is wrong in the world, and alone provides hope.

[smarksbury]

Also, bear in mind that those who claim to believe the Bible are less likely, on average, to engage in such activities as Todd Bentley shames us with. The amount of "faith healers" in Christianity pales in comparison to the percentage of shamans, witch-doctors, etc., of other faiths. Scientology, Native American mythologies, and Eastern mysticism are a few examples of religions who engage in the same "faith healing" practices at much greater percentages. The Bible provides no room for such.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

smarksbury your "others are worse" argument is silly.

Your "The death of the weak" argument misses evolution, but hits Deity in the butt. God claims to have deliberately created lions.

Evolution is about eliminating things that fail to compete, but evolution is also about co-operation. The Bee and flower are a part of nature, not just the lion and gazelle.

In the end though, it doesn't matter if we "like it" what counts is how things are.

[smarksbury]

The Bible never claims that God made carnivores: all breathing creatures were created vegetarian (Gen. 1:29-30) with some only later descending unto violence and bloodshed for sustenance.

Cooperation within ecological systems can be a beautiful thing and is likely residual activity from the original state of affairs.

You're right in noting our desires don't impact truth. Thus, even if I don't understand God at times, I can't simply write Him off. Logic, if nothing else, dictates this.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

Shaun, Cooperation within ecological systems is not "residual" from an initial state, but fundamental and developing.

Evolution follows the process of co-operation from single cells to civilizations. Our morality is based in this co-operative effort.

We must now begin co-operating with nature to protect the environment that makes life possible.

There is no evidence of a god to fix things, nor leading us, nor one who created biblically.

You wrote off the tooth fairy for lack of evidence.

[smarksbury]

Not so - such closed systems evidence a complexity that is irreducible. E.g., how can evolution by sheer chance create flowers needing bees that would not evolve for perhaps 100 million years later? If eco systems are as delicate as they told us in school, that one missing part could cause the ecology of an area to collapse, then it seems all its parts were present at its creation.

I wrote off the tooth fairy because of the _evidence_ of deception. Proving non-existence is difficult. :)

[JohnDeBunkTest]

How can evolution by sheer chance create flowers needing bees that would not evolve for perhaps 100 million years later?

It cannot. The original flowers depended on self pollination. Flowers and bees then evolved together, each adapting due to being more successful when they met the needs of a companion species.

[smarksbury]

Does that not assign some form of intelligence to the process?

[JohnDeBunkTest]

Does that not assign some form of intelligence to the process?

No.

[smarksbury]

Sorry, I missed this part:

"smarksbury your 'others are worse' argument is silly."

Not from a polemical standpoint.

Call me Shaun. :)

[JohnDeBunkTest]

Shaun, you may believe that lions were originally vegetarians, but the evidence shows this to be untrue. What you are doing is calling on evolution to change lions into carnivores when it is convenient for your belief system, but ignoring what really did happen in evolution when it is inconvenient and shows the bible to be wrong.

A question, "Who made diseases?" and why?

Evolution answers this question completely.

In Creationism, if god did or failed to remove them, he is despicable.

[smarksbury]

No articulate Creationist would deny the existence of evolution in terms of variations within species or families. The issue is whether naturalistic evolution is sufficient to explain the origins of life. What we deny is not the ability of an animal to change over time, but the ability of an animal to re-write its DNA to become a new and improved animal (i.e., a monkey becoming human).

God granted man the ability to discover and cure sickness, and will eliminate it supernaturally soon enough.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

Is naturalistic evolution sufficient to explain the origins of life?

It isn't.

That study is Abiogenesis, a study of pre-cellular life chemistry following the development of biochemical molecules.

However, after the first semi-self replicating molecular sequence developed, the processes of evolution kicks in with hereditary sequences being subject to selection.

As far as "specialization" we have examples in progress if you care to do the homework.

Why give God a sickness free pass?

[smarksbury]

Okay. However, it still requires naturalistic processes if there is no creator. Thus, somehow biochemicals must form what is essentially a digital computer sequence we call DNA (and a mechanism for reading and implementing the code): which is, to my knowledge, unexplainable on primordial earth.

Assuming DNA could form without getting scorched or destroyed by water, we have to get whatever creature is formed to add information to its DNA sequence to get here. That is what I have trouble with.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

DNA is a self encoding - self reading molecular structure. So is RNA.

These molecules attract various free atoms and molecules and catalyze specific large molecules (mostly Proteins) depending on their amino acid order. (changing the order changes the protein)

These produced molecules in turn can synthesize others, and will join together to form complex shapes that do useful things. Obviously, the most useful would be reproduced in later generations, while failures were not.

[jagsouthwick]

If you believe that we are the product of purely physical and chemical forces and random chance over eons of time then you cant trust the reason that judgment is based on. Time becomes your God.

[jagsouthwick]

Evolution is a process, you can believe in evolution and still be a theist. Evolution doesn't answer doesn't answer any of the three main questions where we came from, what are we doing here and what happens when we die.

Faith in a farmer stealing a fig is no more 'educated' than faith in matter being eternal or animate life springing from the inanimate. Why so angry when essentially your world view is nihilistic - who cares?

[JohnDeBunkTest]

Evolutionary answer to three main questions for jagsouthwick

where did we come from? ~> We evolved from earlier species, the earliest origin is chemistry with a self replicating molecular sequence.

what are we doing here? ~> We are surviving and having children. We also get to decide how best to live our lives and if our survival as a species is worth achieving.

what happens when we die? ~> we return to the chemicals we are made of. There is no 'after-life' just as there was no 'before-life'.

[gingerjew1948]

So you do believe matter is eternal - a faith statement. Being an atheist is an untenable position.

I understand what evolution as a process is but I also understand the limitations of its scope. It is not a worldview its a process - one which taken to its logical conclusion is utterly nihilistic. There is no fair or unfair, it all doesn't matter so why bother, bothering so to speak.

[gingerjew1948]

I don't need condescending lectures on the process, I fully understand it - but you need to understand its limitations. However, if you want to play it that way name we one example of a mutation that has added information to a genome and then there is the problem of information itself and vitality and pure luck etc.....

[gingerjew1948]

Still looking....add irreducibly complex systems to that list and cheer up mate its all futile anyway.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

world view is 'naturalistic' ... everything has a natural explanation,

fair or unfair, depends on who is receiving. What is fair for the Lion is unfair for the Gazelle. What is fair for the birthday cake was unfair for the wheat seed and chicken egg.

one example of a mutation that has added information to a genome ~> with so many to choose, lets pick drug resistance evolving in pathogenic microbes. Remember the drugs involved are new, so resistance to them is new.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

add irreducibly complex systems to that list

Sure, just as soon as you find an example of one for me to consider.

So far there are ZERO examples of irreducibly complex biological systems.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

So you do believe matter is eternal

no, that is not what I said at all, but we have good reason to believe matter is related to energy and that is not destroyed.

Being an atheist is an untenable position.

No, believing silly things when no evidence supports them and all evidence shows them false is an untenable position.

The world view is not 'evolution' the world view is 'naturalistic' ... that everything has a natural explanation, with no magic-man involved.

[smarksbury]

To continue, I don't think I am giving God a free pass of sorts. I accept what the Bible has to say about sickness: its the product of sin and will be destroyed at the same time sin will be. In addition, God gives us many graces today in allowing the medical community increase in knowledge. He is under no obligation to heal or to make any provisions for us.

As bad as disease is, our spiritual condition is worse. All suffer under sin. The only question is whether a person will accept the cure.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

sickness: its the product of sin

No it isn't. How low do you sink? Dumping a guilt trip of "sins" on sick people is cruel and despicable. When you get a cold is it because you were "bad" and deserved it? How about any other disease?

Please drag yourself out of the dark ages of ignorance! The cure is rational thinking, not superstitions and stupidity.

[smarksbury]

You misunderstand -- while some disease is connected to an individual's sin (overindulging in alcohol may lead to liver disease), its the culmination of the original sin of Adam (as the head of the human race) as well as the state of sin of the peoples of history. That's what I meant when I said sin caused disease. Scripture says that many people get sick who have not done anything to warrant the sickness. Illness reminds us of the imperfection of this world, and causes a longing for the next.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

The the original sin of Adam is a MYTH. It is possible someone was kicked out of an early farming community for stealing figs, but you don't believe in talking snakes do you? Seriously!

Original sin is a dirty scam guilt trip to make the gullible pay extra for useless priestly prayers.

Besides, would you vote for a politician who intended to hold you responsible for crimes your grandfather did? I think not!

I wouldn't worship a god who made a DUMB rule to punish me for someone else's crimes.

[smarksbury]

I believe in the supernatural. And there is plenty about myself for God to punish, leaving Adam out of it. It isn't about priests, for they cannot help. It is only about Jesus Christ, who alone can provide forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

God killed Jesus? Jesus committed suicide? God honored the murder of Jesus?

Having someone punished for you is WRONG. Is it ok if I go to Jail for your crime, even willingly? Is that justice? I think not!

There was no real person Jesus. About 30 contributed to the tale, but the "life" is that of a plant ... seed sacrificed in virgin soil, resurrected as the bread and beer of life, an eternal cycle. (Life of Horus, Baal, Tammuz, Adonis, etc Gods of harvest).

The supernatural is all myth.

[smarksbury]

All of history recorded in Scripture led up to the crucifixion. The entire sacrificial system of ancient Israel was designed by God to allow for Christ to save us. Yes, Jesus was willing, and God was not pleased with the prospect of the entire human race dying in a lost condition.

I don't have time to entertain doubts as to the historicity of the man known as Jesus. I don't know when it became popular again to doubt His existence, but that debate has been dead for a long time.

[JohnDeBunkTest]

"Saving us" by planting seeds is morally correct. Originally Jesus was a combo- wheat plant & grape vine personification. My body is bread, my blood is wine.

Saving us by killing a child is disgusting (even if the son was willing). Besides, why would god make such a heinous rule as 'the default is to get sent to hell' crapola? That is an immoral unfair rule.

Think about it.

[smarksbury]

Further, I can make time for an honest skeptic, one who has doubts about God and Christianity but is willing to hear answers. However, as it seems you are here only to debate, YouTube comment threads are not the proper forums for such exchanges.

If you want to set up a debate in a better forum, I'm sure I can either make the time or find someone who is available for that.

Thanks!

[JohnDeBunkTest]

I have Zero interest in worshiping a God who plans to send people to Hell, and didn't protect anyone from anything. That sort of deity is immoral.

You have Zero Evidence this god even exists (it doesn't), Zero Doubts, & Zero interest in learning.

If you ever wish to learn about the real world look me up.

Tks.

[jayohteee]

continuing from where i stopped;you are

obviously self puffed up! ONE DAY YOU AND MR BENTLEY WILL STAND BEFORE GOD, AND YOU'LL FIND OUT WHO WAS WRONG.

ps; i suggest you quit this or you tooth ache will get worse, that should hopefully shut you up for a while. As for God that you call the DEVIL,he will keep doing his work, you will possibly keep fighting, but i feel sorry for you.

[smarksbury]

Is this a prophecy here? I have trouble believing the Holy Spirit, whose primary fruit is love, would cause someone to "hope" for a toothache to shut a person up... especially when Jesus said to love even your enemies, let alone a brother in Christ.

P.S.: Mr. Friel did not resort to any legalism or refer to God as the devil. Feel free to disagree, but be more reasoning in your assessment of the individual.

[smarksbury]

I accidentally deleted your comment relating Todd Friel to the Pharisees Jesus was speaking to in John 5:38. I didn't mean to, so I apologize.

[jayohteee]

Mr Todd, i guess you have the gift of discernment, God has placed you as judge on the earth, and you know everything about Jesus Christ, you are possibly the chosen one God has chosen to expose false prophets!

[smarksbury]

I am not affiliated with WOTM, and Todd Friel will probably not see this message. That said, doesn't Scripture command us to be discerning? If so, how can we be discerning unless we compare the words spoken by a man to the words of the Bible? What is wrong with that?

[power2theq]

People need to hear this message. I think that you should split the interview into 2 parts instead of speeding it up. As is, this is too distracting to listen too.

[SweetSoundOfGrace]

yer right man. english is still my second language, and this is causing me a headache!

see the killertrumpet version! (todd bentley, with justin peters...)

Shalom.

[smarksbury]

I'll keep that in mind on future videos. Thanks for the feedback!