IST #40: The Goldstone Report and Hypocrisy of the UN

[zitadel1]

This is a total crock of the proverbial brown stuff

[MrCRM114]

On the Israeli side 10 soldiers and 3 civilians were killed.

On the Palestinian side 1,284 Gazans were killed, including 894 civilians.

Is any other comment needed?

[geverahusharmuta]

@MrCRM114 actually about 300 civilians died my confused friend. and while you compare casualties,why don't you compare attampts? about 10,000 rockets launched at israel was the cause of cast lead.

[warwize]

he modified one small point, he didn't retract the whole thing lol

[JBGodzilla]

Also,my father,who lost his family,ran away and ended up in the Red Army.He lost his family,but never talked about it to me,so I know nothing about them. I know he was at the battle of Leningrad, and later in the Battle of Berlin. Met my mother in the DP camps in Germany after the war after defecting from the Red Army. My father never get a penny from Gernany and was not entitled, as he was not in a concentration camp. The fact that his family was killed, or that he was displaced did not count.

[Yitzhakhazak]

The conventions on warfare allow for responses to fire wherever they come from. In an urban area this response may or may not harm civilians. The responsibility is on those who chose to take firing positions in balconies, in or near schools, in windows and in narrow streets. There is no exact definition on using human shields. If your platoon is firing 20 or 30 meters from a group of civilians the enemy can put a tank grenade on you and some civilians might get hurt. Your responsibility!

[theresmoretoit1]

And why is it that people are not up in arms about the fact that HAMAS NO DOUBT did commit war crimes? If all these people that claim not to be anti-semites really just care about Human rights and not demonizing Jews they would be screaming just as loud about HAMAS, who hold the Palestinian people back by caring more about killing Jews than them.

[Grabaka80]

@theresmoretoit1

A diatribe of ignorance. My friend you seem to dismiss two very salient realities surrounding this conflict. One, there were 1400 Palestinians murder at the behest of the IDF versus 13 on the Israeli side. Second, Israel is maintaining an occupation over the Palestinians. Now you might not consider that noteworthy, but imagine an institution dictating every aspect of your life. That is why nobody is screaming bloody murder against Hamas.

[theresmoretoit1]

@Grabaka80 You mean as the UN tries to dictate every aspect of Israels defense. Terrible indeed. You mean how the fanatic Arab world has dictated Israel life with its constant threat of killing all Jews and wiping it off the earth. Terrible indeed. You mean like people living in bomb shelters. terrible indeed. You mean how the whole world tries to micro manage Israeli affairs terrible indeed.

[Grabaka80]

@theresmoretoit1 Your perception of the Arab-Israeli conflict is indicative of someone whose reality doesn't extend beyond the reach of his own hand. Israel has conducted war with its neighbors with complete impunity; the UN has an ineffectual impact on Israeli defense policy.

This impending war mantra of blood thirsty Arab states is far south of reality. Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, Syria hasn't attacked in over 30 years. Iraq is under US occupation. Saudi is a US crony.

[theresmoretoit1]

@Grabaka80 Would you stake your own mother's life on the fact that Egypt will keep its peace treaty with Israel? Would you stake your mothers live on Hamas not continuing to attack Israel even if every single inch of land was given back? Would you stake your life on a cease fire call by Gaffafi? You forget to mention Iran which backs Hamas, you also forget to mention al -Queda, Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah...

[Grabaka80]

@theresmoretoit1 Your comments are completely disconnected from reality my friend. What you fail to see is that Israel is THE most formidable military power in the middle east. Its the only country in the middle east with a nuclear arsenal and an insatiable appetite for war. All those people/groups you mentioned have never posed an existential threat to Israel. Your fear mongering is what continues to perpetuate Israel's psychotic episodes of death and destruction.

[theresmoretoit1]

@Grabaka80 Would you have been happier if more Jews had died? You dismiss the fact that Israeli defense saves millions of lives every year. I actually think people like you celebrate the loss of Palestinians as it furthers your next holocaust agenda, they deserve it.

The so called occupation is a direct result of people like you and Hamas that care more about seeing Jewish blood spilled than the Palestinians welfare.

[Grabaka80]

@theresmoretoit1 I am not happy when innocent civilians die on either side of the conflict. And I would appreciate that you refrain from attributing false claims to my name. Now to address your second falsehood, the occupation is not a result of people like Hamas. And there is clear proof of that. Hamas swept legislative elections in 2006. The occupation started in 1967. So it is false to claim that Hamas or the sort have caused the occupation because the occupation pre-dates Hamas.

[theresmoretoit1]

@Grabaka80 I said people like Hamas that pre-date the 1967 war. Theres is no doubt spilling Jewish blood has always been more important to many than the Palestinian people. Thats how they got the land in the first place,

are you really so ignorant?

[Grabaka80]

@theresmoretoit1 Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society? I mean you need to consciously deceive yourself into believing some of the abhorrent and empirically false statements you have publicized here on YouTube. Even if you are a far right Zionist you acknowledge that the Palestinians settled the land long before the Jewish aaliyah in the early 19th century. And prior to that it was the Roman empire which evicted the Jews from Palestine. The rise of Islam saw an Arab re-population.

[Zalahblue]

The average person on the streets didn't believe a word of the Goldstone Report. I mean come on, stupid ass Hamas Palestinians are still trying to blame everything on Israel. Shark attacks, people fainting, lice, etc., In the mean time, has anyone else noticed that there are no more Christians in Bethlehem? There are no more palestinian refugees after 60 years. Thank God AMERICANS are not such dumb asses as the UN! Has anyone else noticed the buildings destroyed in Gaza, DESTROYED BY HAMAS!

[alexei3333]

First Golstone ask New York Times to publish his article and they refuse.

Is it interesting?

[JBGodzilla]

Goldstone must have grown a conscience. Maybe he realized that kissing up to the enemies of Israel is a dead end road. The IDF never purposely targets innocent civilians. Hamas celebrates and hands out candies when Jews are murdered. That's the difference between Jews and Muslims. We Jews hate death; the enemy celebrates it.

[petersz98]

@JBGodzilla What infuriates Zionists is not that Goldstone wrote a report outing Israel as a criminal state that deliberately targets civilians which is all perfectly true of course but that he is a Jew and a Zionist and he had the balls to tell the truth! If he had been a goyim well that would have been expected but for a member of the tribe to wash dirty linen in public is unforgiveable! Goldstone thought he was doing the Zionists and Jews a service now he's saying "Please forgive me". LOL!

[JBGodzilla]

@petersz98

No, its not true at all, and never has been. The only time civilians were targeted, was by the Irgun and the Stern group in the pre-state days, in retaliation for Arab attacks on Jewish civilians. Now, in WWII, both sides purposely targeted civilians, so it's not as if purposely targeting civilians is anything new. But Israel has never done it. Not that it shouldn't do it, when the enemy purposely targets Jewish civilians, but that it simply hasn't done so.

[stockinettestitch]

@JBGodzilla Now Goldstone just needs to provide some sort of proof that it was full of lies, otherwise "they'll" just say it's another sneaky & untrustworthy Jew lying.

[petersz98]

@JBGodzilla

Goldstone to Associated Press:

‘I have no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time.’ Are the Zionists now going to retract their claim that Goldstone has found  "errors" in the report?

[steute2011]

@JBGodzilla This clown in the video is greatly exagerating the recantation. Goldstone never said the report was full of lies. He only recanted one portion and that was to say that Israel did not target civilians as a matter of policy. Furthermore, the other 3 authors of the report stand by the original report. Everyone knows that the immense pressure asserted by Israel on Goldstone is what led him to make this partial recantation, which the UN is not buying.

[JBGodzilla]

@steute2011

Isn't it interesting that no Muslim members of the UN are as critical of fellow Muslim countries as Jews are of fellow Jews? The truth is that the IDF is the MOST MORAL ARMY ON EARTH, and that includes the army of the United States. And that the Arabs are the most immoral, refusing to wear uniforms, insignia, purposely using as well as targetting children. But because they are so brazen and amoral, the world gives them a pass. Can't do much about 1.6 BILLION Muslims, so blame Jews.

[steute2011]

@JBGodzilla While I agree that there are instances where the UN has failed to address atrocities committed by Arab / Muslim states, I do not believe this somehow changes the facts of what happened in Gaza. To call the IDF the most moral army in the world, is absurd when you onsider that overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You should also consider, that if you gain a reputation for ignoring international law for 40+ years, the number of resolutions against you will be higher than others.

[JBGodzilla]

@steute2011

First of all, the UN is a TOTALLY political organization, and has no relationship to morality or even legality, but purely politics. Of its 193 members, some 57 are Muslim. Islam does not accept a Jewish state. But the UN General Assembly voted for the right of a "Jewish State" to arise back in November, 1947. The Council of the League of Nations ruled that Palestine is the "Jewish National Home" back in 1920. But who cares? The Muslims have the votes and the oil money to get votes

[steute2011]

@JBGodzilla Certainly the UN is purely political when it does not suit one's own agenda. Much like people who criticize Isreal's policies and actions are anti-Semitic / Jewhaters. There are indeed quite a few Arab nations in the UN...However, how do you account for the other 135 non-Arab nations that voted in favor of many of those resolutions. Does the entire world have a conspiracy against Israel? Really? Notice I did not include the US in that figure of 135 non-Arab nations.

[JBGodzilla]

@steute2011

Well, just because the Nazis murdered my family, and I was born in a DP camp in Bavaria, doesn't mean that Germany isn't German soil, the homeland of the Germanic peoples. Similarly, one can criticize Israel as long as one accepts that Israel's is Jewish soil,the homeland of the Jewish people. So I don't claim that everyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemite, as long as they accept that ISrael is Jewish soil. Does the whole world have a conspiracy against ISrael? Maybe.Why not?

[JBGodzilla]

@steute2011

The United Nations NEVER had the right to overrule the decisions made by the Council of the League of Nations back in 1922, that ruled that Palestine is the "JEwish National Home" and gave Jews the right to settle every inch of it! Based on what precedent or ruling did the UN presume to overrule or ignore the prior rulings of the League of Nations? And so, I consider every one of those anti-Israel resolutions to be illegal, null and void.

[steute2011]

@JBGodzilla The UN resolution 181 (Partition Plan) was agreed to and signed off on by Israel and therefore superceeded any previous agreements. You can not turn around now and say, oh no, "I CHANGED MY MIND, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE OLD AGREEMENT"

[JBGodzilla]

@steute2011

Oh, no, UNGAR 181 was a compromise suggestion by the UN GEneral Assembly and which has no Chapter 7 legal requirement. The ARabs rejected it, went to war against Israel, so 181 is totally dead, discarded into the trash can of history, Same with the 1949 Armistice lines. Those previous lines are all dead now because the ARabs refused to make peace. So it's starts all over from square one. When the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948, the UN did not go to war against the Arab aggressors.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla It didn't give the Zionist movement carte blanche to build anywhere. Arguing with you is like arguing with someone from the Flat Earth society. We're not even agreeing on uncontroversial aspects of history. Read Benny Morris, Neve Gordon, Meron Benvinisti, Shlomo Bin Amin, Ilan Pappe, or Avi Shlaim and many others who are well respected Israeli historians. Their scholarship is in complete contradiction to almost everything you write.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I read Benny Morris's "1948." Have you? He's not same Benny Morris he was in the 1980s. As for the rest of those leftist renegades you mentioned, they scribble nonsense in order to sell books to Muslims and antisemites. It's a much wider audience. Their so-called "scholarship" is a pile of drivel. Yes, the Mandate gave Jews the right to settle anywhere on wastelands, state lands,and any lands that could be bought from landowners. Not one inch of land was taken from Arabs before '48.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Wow, leftist renegades, an interesting charge. Your accusation would have an ounce of legitimacy had I cited some of the more popular so-called leftist-renegades like Norman Finklestein, Noam Chomsky or Edward Said. I guarantee most Muslims have never heard of most of those people I listed. They are respected scholars and one former statesmen. Try to attack their scholarship instead heaping manure at their credibility.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Most Muslims that can read or watch TV certainly do know Noam Chomsky,Finkelstein,Avi Shlaim, Ilan Pappe, and the rest of those left wing sellouts. I've been on the internet for nearly 20 years now, and have argued with hundred of Arabs and Lefist Jews and others, and everyone knows those Jew-renegade names. WIthout those Lefist renegade Jews, the ARabs wouldn't even have a case.They learned everything they think they know from them.Just like Umar learned from Jewish converts.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappe are not household names in Muslim households. Possibly Chomsky and Finklestein, but that isn't of particular importance. The problem with these Leftist Renegades is that they produce well-supported, respectable scholarship which is unpalatable for you because it forces you to account for a reality which you choose to ignore or label as 'leftist'.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Not really.These "historians" often slant the data in a way to support their hypothesis. They choose to believe that the Jews were out to "ethnically cleanse" the Arabs out of Jewish controlled areas in 1948, and have selected certain passages to support that contention. The reality today is, that 5.5 million Arabs live where 1.2 million lived in 1948! There are ten times as many "Palestinians"today as there was in 1948.But how many Jews are left in Muslim countries compared to '48?

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla These "historians" relied on declassified Israeli documents which detailed some of the events that transpired in 1948. What is striking is that even Benny Morris, considered an authority on this matter, has acknowledged that this actually happened. If you have access to some secret information then please let it out of the bag. I would be very interest to read the sources that you rely on to form your opinion.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Well, again I have to repeat, statements are open to interpretations as historians choose to interpret. I can post many, many statements made by Arabs during and after the war. Even Abbas (Mazen) admitted on Palestinian TV that his family left Safed before they saw the first Jewish soldier. They were afraid of retribution for the Hebron Massacre. And again, 145,000 Arabs, Druze and Bedouins chose to remain and now they number 1.6 million Muslim citizens of Israel!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Just for the record his name is Abu Mazen. What your suggesting then is that there is no objective reality, which is absolutely ludicrous. To suggest that somehow there were alternative ways to intepret the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israeli declassified documents isn't scholarly its retarded. Have you read any of these documents yourself to have arrived at this conclusion?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I don't care what the name of that PLO terrorist holocaust denier is. Or how many "noms de guerre" or aliases he goes by. And there was no "ethnic cleansing of Palestine." That is just more anti-Jewish libel. There was a war started by the Arabs which created two refugee problems: those Arabs who chose to leave Jewish controlled territory, and those Jews who left Arab controlled territories. Just like India/Pakistan. Only far more Arabs remained on Jewish controlled territory!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Alright now is the time to back your statements with credible sources. According to who did the ethnic cleansing of Palestine not occur?

[Ilanactingreel]

@Grabaka80

With the most basic of research one can see what a lune Noam Chomsky is. And most muslims rely solely on quoting these men saying look they are jews and they say....

[Grabaka80]

@Ilanactingreel I have never met Noam Chomsky, but I have heard him speak on a few occaisions. He is lucid and forms very coherent arguments. Under which criteria you ascertained that he is a lune, I am don't know, but assuming you are correct in your assertion, how does that diminish the arguments he puts forth. I think the sort of exercise you are engaging in is intellectually lazy. Instead of listening to his argument you instead label him as crazy and ignore the content of his message.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I've had the misfortune to have to listen to Chomsky, and I had to plug my ears. Not only does he have a terribly raspy and annoying voice, his distortions and lies simply make me physically ill. Maybe to Muslims he sounds good, because maybe they are comfortable with distortions and lies. I'm not.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla What distinguish myself from you is that I am willing to accept negative statements about Palestinians and Arabs when they are true and supported by evidence or reliable sources. You on the other hand, cannot accept any criticism of Israel even when the evidence is clear as day. I can accept that we have dramatically different opinions on this conflict. But what sickens me is your complete disregard for human life.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Indeed, it was during 1948 that the Israeli militias ethnic cleansed modern day Israel of its Palestinian inhabitants. Benny Morris addresses this point in his book Righteous Victims. At the time of the mandate Israel was not the size it became in 1948. So the land they were legally allowed to settle should not be mistaken for the land it current has because that land was appropriated through war.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Nonsense. From 1882 to 1947, in those 65 years of pre-statehood settlement, not a single inch of private property was taken from any Arab or other landowner! In 1948, the UN-authorized Jewish state was attacked, and most of the Arabs who chose to leave Jewish-controlled territory were told that they would be back in a week or two to get the booty of the Jews who would be thrown into the sea. The Arabs in Palestine outnumbered the Jews by 2 to 1 but skedaddled. Some chose to stay.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't suggesting that the Israeli's took land prior to 1948. I agree it was purchased. And the land they purchased was obviously in their right to do what wanted with it. The fairy tale about Arabs leaving after the Jews were wiped out is another falsehood which has been repeatedly debunked. In any case, even if they were told to leave, don't they have a right to return to their own land?

[Grabaka80]

@Grabaka80 Actually never mind, I know what your going to say. "It was a war and in war when your side loses they lose their land." And then you are going to follow that statement with some disconnected, incommensurable historical example. Save yourself the time and just let me know what sort of sources you use to support your opinion.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Well,yes nearly 100,000 Loyalists in the American Revolution had to leave their homes behind and go elsewhere, mostly to what became Canada and to Latin America.About 14 million ethnic Germans were expelled from Eastern and Central Europe at the end of WWII.Millions of Hindus and Muslims went in opposite directions during the bloody partition of India. Very few Jews went back to Poland, where they were not welcome and sometimes murdered. My mother lost all in Poland. Yup, that's war.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Would you agree that your mom losing everything in Poland was an unfair and unjust thing to have happened? If so, then why would you impose such an act on anybody else. If someone steals my car, that doesn't give me the moral license to go and steal his car or someone elses. Your arguments are consistently morally indefensible.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Jews are used to losing everything. My mother used to cry over her murdered baby, and her murdered brothers, and my murdered grandmother, and not over lost homes and businesses. We Jews aren't cry babies over lost homes and lands, but only lost flesh and blood. You see, if the JEws had murdered hundreds of thousands of Arab children and other family members in 1948, I could understand their grievances. But over some lost homes or lands? To hold such long grievances?

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla "Jews are used to losing everything", so then why pursue compensation for monies and wealth that was unjustly stolen from them during the Holocaust? And why do you find it necessary to avoid the moral question? Anyone reading this discussion thread would certain wonder the same thing.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

There was NO compensation for lost properties. THere may have been a handful of high profile claims of stolen paintings, etc., that were highly publicized over the years, but no one I know (and I was raised amidst holocaust survivors) got money for lost homes or properties. The monies that were paid out by West Germany were at first only to survivors of the concentration camps, and only much later on, were pensions of about $250 a month given to other survivors of the holocaust.

[JBGodzilla]

@JBGodzilla

Let me clarify this issue of "Widergutsmachen" paid out by Germany over the last 60 years. Adenauer of Germany came to Israel and chose to pay compensation to Israel, and to Holocaust camp survivors in other countries, in order to restore "Germany's good name" after WWII. There were many in Israel who opposed "blood money." My own mother opposed "blood money" and finally accepted only a German pension after was 80 years old at MY prodding! I made her take the money!

[JBGodzilla]

@JBGodzilla

To make a long story short, my mother's 4 year old son, her mother (my grandmother), her two brothers, her first husband were murdered. Her home, her husband's grain business, and all were lost. She and the family were forced to move to the ghetto. When the ghetto was liquidated, and her family killed, she survived in a pit in the middle of a field with four others saved by a Christian Polish farmer family for nearly two years.What did my mother get from Germany overall? $35,000.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I honestly can't counter your claims because I genuinely don't know, but the moral question is still on the table whether it was money and not land stolen.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

No country has to take back a 5th column! No country ever has. The rules for Israel should not be different than those for other countries that were attacked. And then, 856,000 JEws fled the mostly Muslim Arab countries. And the Jewish refugees left behind 4 times the amount of real estate as the area all of Palestine put together. So, in effect there was a population swap, and that should be the end of that! I don't expect Jews to get their property back in Baghdad or Cairo.

[Ilanactingreel]

@JBGodzilla

my mom is an iraqi jew and she fled the country because they were trying to kill all the jews. She lost everything she had and started over living in the desert in israel and never complained.

[JBGodzilla]

@Ilanactingreel

YEs, I knew many Moroccan and Iraqi Jews in Israel. I even rented a house from an Iraqi Jew in Beersheva who lost his son in one of the wars. Some Iraqi Jews claim that zionists had forced them out of Iraq, with bombs, etc. But some have forgotten the Farhud - the "dispossession" of 1941. And how would they have fared under Saddam I wonder? Some in Israel complain, and some don't. Live in Israel was never a picnic. To start over,particularly in a desert in Beersheva or Sderot!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla So what's your source for this wellspring of information. Another question you continue to ignore. I would be interested to read your selection of reading material that informs your perspective on the Arab-Israel conflict.

[mullagh670]

Goldstone report says Israel broke Fourth Geneva Convention. 

[JBGodzilla]

@mullagh670

The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 does not apply to Judah and Samaria.

[alexei3333]

@mullagh670

So? Who believe him now?

[Ilanactingreel]

@mullagh670

goldstone recently said with what he knows today he would have written a completely different report

[the81kid]

"Judge Richard Goldstone admits that his United Nations Human Rights Council sponsored report on Israel was full of lies"

Judge Goldstone never said that! The injustice of the UN, as Israel kills 300 children in a "war"! You cannot be serious.

Please show us the part of Judge Goldstone's op-ed to back up your bold statement. In fact, he never withdrew one part of his report! He said it would be different today - but he had ALWAYS said that it would be different if Israel had participated.

[Grabaka80]

The Goldstone Report was not a report against Israel. Read the mandate, if you can; it was a fact finding mission to determine if war crimes were committed throughout the course of the offensive by BOTH Hamas and Israel.

In Goldstone's Op-ed he never once states that his report was full of lies. His article retracts the claim that Israel's military policy intentional killed civilians.

You are doing no justice to your cause by twisting the facts. May God guide to truth and away from falsehood.

[alexei3333]

@Grabaka80

watch?v=hqyB04klExU

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 I think that when Goldtone retracts the claim that Israel intentionally killed civilians than that is what its all about, If Israel targeted Hamas terrorists than its not a war crime. If civilians were injured and got killed because hamas used them as human shield than its also not an Israeli war crime (Goldstone also admitted it and Hamas leaders admitted of doing so).

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86

You misinterpreted what Goldstone was saying. He said that it wasn't official IDF POLICY to intentionally target civilians. That doesn't absolve individual IDF soldiers who might have decided themselves to intentionally murder innocent Palestinians. The report also indicated that the IDF intentionally destroyed civilian infrastructure (e.g. flour mill, houses, schools etc.) This claim was NOT recanted by Goldstone and is an unequivocal war crime.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 First, Im not claiming that there is no possibility that individuals havent done any war crimes, i cant believe there were murders but I cant deny it, so far there are no proofs for any murders. You should make the difference between soldiers who irresponsibly made actions which caused civilian casualties and a murder. Secondly, if a place which was built as a school or a mosque and now it is used as rockets warehouse or as a place to launch rockets than any country would bomb it.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 I can't concede that there is a dramatic difference between the irresponsible military actions that cause civilian casualties and murder. You need to articulate this point further to convince me otherwise. Your second point is false empirically and morally. The report did not uncover mosques or schools that were used as weapons cache. But suppose for a second that your claim is true, how can you justify killing civilians that are packed into a school to destroy a cache of weapons.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 First, I f your city is bombed children wouldnt be at school, but at home, unless someone had put them there to die. If that someone also shoots rockets from that schools than there is not much you can do but to use the smartest bombs to hurt the target without creating casualties. About the difference between irresponsibility and murder: Lets say you are driving through the street at high speed, it is irresponsible. If you crash someone your not murdering him but killing him.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 At home or at school, in the recent Gaza raid neither were spared; there were no safe sanctuaries. What you are proposing with using 'the smartest bombs' is absolutely ridiculous. How can you drop a bomb on a house/school packed with civilians and not expect them to die. Your final argument is moot. Driving at a high speed and killing them as a result still yields the same outcome; namely a dead person. Intentionality doesn't mean much to the victims.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 Smart bomb is cost much more but has a much lower impact on the people around it. Israel threw pamphlet from airplanes with military targets its about to bomb. Israel sent SMS for Gazan citizens about places they are about to bomb. Israel took almost any measure to promise their wont be any civilian victims. Hamas not only used people as human shields but intended more people to be killed, as it work against us more than against them.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 Wow! The credulity of your statements is almost child-like. May I remind you that 1400 Palestinians died...how smart can those bombs possibly be! You may think that sending SMS and pamphlets is an honorable move, but when you consider that Gaza is smaller than Singapore there doesn't leave its inhabitants with much space to flee too; especially when you consider that all exit points are blocked by Egypt and Israel.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Every Muslim knows that any Muslim child who dies fighting for Islam against the Infidels and Jews not only is in Paradise at the instant of death, but has the ability to get up to 70 members of his clan ("hamullah") into Paradise as well. And so, the death of a Muslim child is a great victory for his clan! Muslims can't lose! When they are killed, they are victorious! If Israel had killed many, many more, they could have gotten all the hamullahs in Gaza into Paradise! Poor Hamas!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla What this has to do with the facts surrounding this conflict, I don't know. You certain haven't made your argument stronger, especially considering that what you wrote was factually incorrect. In Islam people are admitted into heaven based on their own actions. Whether you go to heaven has no bearing on whether your martyred son or daughter died fighting Jews, Infidels, or even the cookie monster. Get your facts straight because you sound foolish.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

What I know about Islam is that its founder, Muhammad, was a Jew-killer who ethnically cleansed the Jews out of the Hijaz, and Israel should say more about it. It should demand that Saudi Arabia apologize to the JEwish nation for the actions of Muhammad against the Jews. I also know that there is no Jerusalem nor "Palestine" in the Koran.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I cannot ascertain the validity of your first claim. There is good reason not to believe you because your previous comment about Islam was factually wrong. And you commit another fallacy by saying that Jerusalem or Palestine is not in the Koran. It is in the Koran, that's the direction Muslims used to pray towards. I am not sure why you feel it necessary to bring religion into this. What's wrong with addressing the public record on this matter?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

When Muhammad tried to sucker the Jews of Medina into accepting that Arab illiterate as a prophet, he made Aelia the first qibla. But when the Jews refused to accept Muhammad as a prophet, he turned against them and made Mecca the center again, to make his clan, the Quraysh, who once hated him, to come in with him.

And of course, the Muslims made this war a religious war. We didn't; they did. But now that it is, we must accept if for what it is. and Israel is Jewish land!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I have no interest in deflecting the purpose of this debate. What happened 1400 years ago is of little relevance to the issue we are discussing currently. You didn't address my question to you. What is Israel's claim to the land it appropriates and occupies? Under what authority or right does it have to the land it builds settlements on? What right does it have toe evict Arabs from Jerusalem?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

What happened 3000 years ago, and 2000 years ago, and 1400 years ago and 90 years ago, and 63 years ago are all relevant to this conflict. The Jewish claim to the land is more solid than any other national claim to any land anywhere on earth.The Arabs have no basis to claim the land at all. They are just foreign occupiers, speaking a foreign language from Arabia,who brought with them a foreign religion as well. The authority is that it is JEwish land,so said the League of Nations.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

What is Israel's claim to the land it appropriates? Article 6 of the League of Nations Mandate. What right does Israel have to evict Arabs from Jerusalem? The same right Muhammad had to evict the Jews from Medina and Khaybar.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla You clearly haven't read the mandate because it clearly states that "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Appropriate land would constitute as prejudice. Your second point about Muhammad evicting Jews, do you consider that act acceptable? If you don't then why would you impose that on someone else?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I've practically MEMORIZED the articles of the LoN Mandate!

*Article 2.*

"The Mandatory (Britain) shall be responsible for placing the country under such

political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the

establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble,

and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for

safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of

Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla It's great that Israel can live up to the part about taking wasteland and state land, but what about the part about safeguarding civil and religious rights? Would you consider that what Israel is doing to Gazans, Arabs in Jersusalem, and the West Bank safeguarding civil and religious rights?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I remember Gaza when Arabs came to work in Israel in droves. I used to work outside Sderot in the 1980s. The Arabs began an uprising, and that changed matters. Israel has the right to put down rebellion in the liberated territories. Menachem Begin offered to return Gaza to Sadat, who adamantly refused. Gaza has been a launchpad for terror attacks on Israelis since at least 1950. Israel was forced to occupy Gaza against its will due to the terror. When it left, the rockets began!

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

*Article 6.*

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and

position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall

facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall

encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article

4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste

lands not required for public purposes."

IOW, Jews were ENCOURAGED to settle all wastelands and state lands.

[Grabaka80]

Respond to this video... 

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Israel has definitely not violated any religious rights; it's the Muslims who don't allow Jews up to the Temple Mount. Jordan refused Jews the right to visit the Western Wall from 1949 to 1967 after expelling the entire 5,000 Jewish population of eastern Jerusalem and destroying all 60 synagogues there. As for civil rights, Israel gave Arab men and women full voting rights in Israel.As for the liberated territories, the Arabs there have the right to vote for their own terror parties.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Oh don't forget to mention collective starvation and destruction of the Gazan society as one of Israel's remarkable demonstrations of human rights.

It is well-known that Arab-Israelis are treated like second class citizens in Israel, check the major human rights group if you don't agree.

Please don't ever refer to the Occupied Territories as liberated territories. Have some sensitivity to the people who are currently living in destitute as Israel's hands.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Is it safe for me to assume that you would regard advisory opinions of the International Court of Justice with equal value? Or do you accept the League of Nations dated Mandate because it suits your goals?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

No court or subsequent organization has the LEGAL RIGHT to overturn the final ruling of the Council of the League of Nations from 1922.The ruling was made after both sides had given their arguments, and see no reason why this issue has to be re-debated every 30 or 40 years. If anything, ISrael today has MORE right than then! JEws today are the majority between the river and the sea, which they certainly were not in 1920. Israel has developed into a modern, democratic, strong state.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 By the way, Hizbolla the terrorist organization in Lebanon, is placing its military bases and warehouses near schools and hospitals so that in the next battle more civilians would be killed, unless Israel wont use its right to protect itself and avoid from bombing the military bases of its enemies. I see that you live in Canada, I really hope your country wont get into ugly conflicts like this, but if it does, Im sure you wouldnt act any different. Peace.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 If my country was embroiled in a conflict with another country, I would be out protesting and calling my local MP censuring them about using violence to achieve an end to a conflict. Canada's military is easily dwarfed by the Israeli military. Moreover, Canadians don't have a penchant for war like the Israeli government. If you would like to provide your first point with some sort of proof then we can have a more rigorous debate.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

If Canada was surrounded by Arabs instead of by the US, it would be of a different opinion. But today's Canadian prime minister is a strong supporter of Israel, by all accounts. Which is nice.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Supporting Israel's intransigence is not a good thing. Harper is doing Israel a disfavor by giving it unconditional support. If you want to see Israel co-exist with its neighbors then you must deplore its excessive and wanton use of military force to achieve an end. As I write this message, the US is in the midst of holding peace talk with the Taliban. The US understands that you cannot bomb a nation into peace.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Israel has NOT been intransigent enough, because of all the anti-Zionist Leftists and others in Israel and the world. Israel should SCREECH into the face of the UN and all of its "neighbors" that the Land of Israel is JEWISH SOIL, and if the Arabs want yet another, 23rd state on Jewish soil, they must accede to Israel's terms and conditions!

Israel lost no wars. Israel so far has been the VICTOR not the VANQUISHED, and does not have to accept surrender terms from the brazen losers!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I hate to burst your bubble, but it was widely accepted that Israel took an unprecedented defeat in Lebanon in 2006. Despite the overwhelming civilian infrastructural damage the wrought on Lebanon, they ended up doing a 'dick-tuck' and retreating.

It doesn't sound like you want a peace settlement to this conflict. It seems you simply want the Palestinians to acquiesce in Israeli military dominance and accept the scraps Israel is willing to offer.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Listen, Israel has not been defeated. It will NOT acquiesce. As for the 2006 Lebanese war, Israel lost 150; the Arabs lost 1300. If that is a defeat, then let there be another 1000 such defeats for Israel! If that it the BEST you can point to, then I wouldn't be so proud about it. The US took much worse defeats in battles against the Germans and Japanese during WWII, but did not surrender to the Axis!But I will concede that Iranian training and officers do pose a greater challenge.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla It was a defeat because their stated objective was to eradicate Hezbullah. What they ended up doing was emboldening them and giving them more legitimacy. The aftermath of the 2006 war left Lebanon in complete shambles. Israel destroyed so much civilian infrastructure. Hizbullah rose from the rubble as heroes because they stood up to a more formidable fighting force and stood their ground.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Okay, so Israel did not have a complete victory in 2006.So what? That does not mean it was a defeat. The mission statement was unrealistic, and the military was not prepared. It was ad hoc, badly led, and every possible mistake was made. But Hezbollah has not fired missiles on ISrael lately, so that is something. Can't win every battle. No country ever has. The main thing is not to lose the country.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Look at all the reasons you have enumerated to account for Israel's military defeat. There is no use in splitting hairs over your use of "complete victory" or "defeat". The point remains that Israel had as their objective to eliminate Hizbullah and they failed to accomplish that.

The reason Hizbullah has refrained from firing rockets is because Israel decimated so much civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

"The reason Hizbullah has refrained from firing rockets is because Israel decimated so much civilian infrastructure in Lebanon. "

YEah, and the US destroyed much civilian infrastucture in GErmany and Japan too during WWII. A war is a war. Hezbollah and Hamas want jihad and holy war, so we should give them as much war as they want. If they shoot rockets into Israel, I'd use tactical nukes on them. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. They have no excuse to be firing missiles at us!

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla I say this with a heavy heart. If your views truly represent that of Israelis then I fear the worst for both sides. Germany and Japan were bombed beyond reason, hundreds of thousands of innocent people died. I wouldn't want this on anybody and it is a sad state of affairs when there are people so bent on advancing their agendas through death and destruction, that they value property over life.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Germany and Japan were bombed for very good reasons, and similarly since the Arabs murder innocent JEwish civilians, so I am not going to shed any tears for killed Arab civilians. Do I have to mention the Hebron Massacre of 1929, as well as other earlier acts of violence against innocent Jews in Palestine in the 1920s and '30s? It was Arabs who first murdered Jewish children, not the other way around. That can be easily documented and proven.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Perhaps you would like to explain those 'very good reasons' to thousands of devastated families of Germany and Japan.

Did Arabs kill innocent Israelis? Yes. Was it right to do so? No. Did Israeli's kill innocent Arabs? Yes. Was it right? No. You would prefer to simply eliminate Palestinians with force instead of reach a peaceful solution. Much like your friends, you don't want peace because you covet the land instead.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

"Perhaps you would like to explain those 'very good reasons' to thousands of devastated families of Germany and Japan."

They elected Hitler to power and so that was their payoff. Same with Hamas in Gaza. They elect those who want to kill Jews, so I am supposed to feel sorry if they are killed instead? I don't think so. What goes around, comes around.

There is no peaceful solution until Jewish NATIONAL rights to our rightful homeland is fully recognized and respected.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla So people who mark off the wrong name on a ballot deserve death, humiliation and destitute. Those are harsh standards of democracy you hang over people's heads. According to your criteria it would be justifiable to have killed Americans because they elected presidents who waged and continued a completely unjustifiable war in Vietnam. Does that sit well with you? Or do you demand more death to satisfy your penchant for violence.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

If the North Vietnamese had had the ability to bomb Washington, the would have done so. They just didn't have the means to do so.

But yes, there are consequences for voting for madmen like the Nazis, Hezbollah or Hamas.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla You named off consequences for voting in Nazis, Hezbullah, or Hamas, but didn't explicitly agree that American voters should be subject to the same consequences. Care to explain? Would it be justifiable for the North Vietnamese, if they had the capability, to bomb innocent US civilians because they voted for a president that either initiated or continued an unjust war in Vietnam?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

If the North Vietnamese could have, they would have. They couldn't so they didn't.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Again, you are avoiding answering the question. Would it have been morally acceptable, in your opinion, if the North Vietnamese bombed Washington because Americans voted for a president that took them into an unjustifiable war. The problem here is that I have caught you in a moral dilemmna which is exposing your hypocrisy. It's okay to kill Palestinians because they elected Hamas, but its not okay to have killed Americans during Vietnam.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Morally acceptable or not, in war both sides will bomb each other wherever they can. The North Vietnamese simply had no means to bomb Washington. Neither did the Japanese or Nazis in WWII. Morality has nothing to do with it.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Why do you continue to side step the question? I am trying to extract from you, your moral opinion based on the statement YOU made about the acceptability of killing Palestinians because they voted for Hamas. I don't care about capabilities or how armies behave in war. It's a simple question, would it have been acceptable to kill Americans, during the Vietnam war, because they voted for a president that took them to war?

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

The North Vietnamese had no problem violating every provision of the Geneva Conventions regarding US POWs, so I am certain that had they been able to bomb Washington, they would have done so. And from their POV, maybe they would feel justified. I'm not God. I don't make the Laws of War. According to Mosaic Law, if someone is occupying our Israelite homeland,and refuse to accept our rights to it, we have the right to kill them and drive them out. But those who do, can live in peace.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Great response, but I am not looking for you to duck the question. I want your own opinion. I think, however, it is clear from the number of times you have avoided the question where you stand on this MORAL question. It's acceptable to murder Palestinians because they voted for Hamas, however it is NOTacceptable to have killed US citizens during the Vietnam War because they voted for a president that took them into an unjust war. I just wanted to clear that up for the record.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Your attitude to this conflict is morally reprehensible. You take a selective reading of history to give your argument a moral justification for killing, starving, and humiliating Palestinians. Then you go around and say that Palestinians don't want peace they just want holy war. Save your ignorant, immoral arguments for the easy reading in public bathroom stall walls because that's where it is best suited for.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

No I take a very HONEST and STRAIGHTFORWARD reading of history. The enemy is the ones who are "selective." I know what the so-called "Palestinians" want. They want Haifa, Jaffa, Ramle, Lod, Jerusalem, Beersheva, etc. In other words they want the end of JEwish sovereignty, and I will not give it to them. It';s not their land. They were just temporary occupiers, and should reintegrate back into the Arab countries. Israel is Jewish land.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Your opinion is in complete contradiction to any scholarly, judicial, humanitarian, and moral consensus. You don't care about human rights group because they detail the savagery with which the IDF operates with. You don't care about UN reports about starving children in Gaza. You don't care about judicial norms because for you the only outcome that matters is Israel's complete dominance at the expense of everyone else.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I don't care about lies based on "political correctness" that today has camouflaged antisemitism in the form of anti-Zionism. Ever since the previously closed Arab states were opened up to external media in the 1990s, the media has learned that to make money in vast Muslim audiences, you have to libel Israel on a regular basis. If you say anything positive about ISrael, Muslim audiences will turn the channel. The media gives its audiences what they want to hear.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Wow this is good stuff. I'm going to start a comic strip based on your YouTube comments. You must not live in the US or Canada because the news is without doubt highly slanted to the Israeli side. Although recently, because of Israel's continually indefensible behavior, has made it more and more difficult for news outlets to sugar coat Israeli transgressions.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Israel's behavior is the most defensible in the world, but the media mostly chooses to please larger Muslim audiences by castigating and demonizing ISrael. It is purely a business decision. You pander to the largest audience. Before the 1990s, the world media had no access to the close Arab countries. Now that they do ,they pander to them by libeling Israel. That's all there is to it. As the mafia says, "It's nothing personal; just business."

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla You know I don't expect to convince you that Israel receives a far more favorable showing in the media, but what is striking is your wholesale encouragement of violence against Arabs, yet are offended when news outlets report on Israeli military offenses that claim countless innocent civilians. Now I know you think its okay to kill those innocent civilians, but you have to admit that it does make your argument sound very weak.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

I'm not encouraging violence against anybody, but if we are attacked, we should hit back with 100 times the force. Because the adversary is 100 times as numerous. But I am not advocating aggression, but only self-defense.

[Grabaka80]

@JBGodzilla Hamas does not want war, despite what your propaganda affiliates tell you. They have agreed to a two state settlement along the pre-1967 border. In November of 2008, when Israel broke the ceasefire agreement, Hamas asked to extend the ceasefire, but Israel refused. What ensued in Dec.-Jan. was not a war but a massacre of a starved and humiliated people. Oh how mighty and brave the IDF performed.

[JBGodzilla]

@Grabaka80

Let the US give the Taliban a state in the United States, for all I care. America can afford to lose 100 wars, because it can always, and will always withdraw back behind the wide oceans to the easy living homeland. Israel is not America. One slip, and Israel is dead and buried. There is no room for further compromises or mistakes. Netyanhu has set the conditions, which I FULLY SUPPORT, for peace. The Arabs must recognize Israel as NATIVE JEWISH SOIL and forget about Jerusalem.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 In warfare as you are trying to make your best efforts in order to prevent civilian killings, yet you try to save your live and the lives of your soldiers, you may take actions which are irresponsible, like ordering a cannon o shoot its shell into a house where you identified fire from. That kind of action may be irresponsible when you dont check that there arent people in this house. Im saying it in the IDF standats, any other normal western army wouldnt think twice.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 You can see it with the USA and England in Afghanistan and with Russia in Chechnya, but the hypocrite UN human rights committee which includes Gadafi Libya would never use a Goldstone report on them. Any way when an organization is using his population as human shields hence packing them into a school or a mosque with weapons and rocket launchers, than it is the only responsibility of this certain organization. A country has its obligation to protect its citizens.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 This whole accusation of the use of human shields in the most recent Gaza conflict is an unsubstantiated rumor often touted by Israeli spokespersons. Human Rights Watch along with other human rights organizations investigated such a claim in lieu of the Gaza invasion and didn't find any evidence to suggest Hamas employed human shielding.

[Yitzhakhazak]

@Grabaka80

Neither Human Rights Watch personnel nor Goldstone are experts at warfare. HRW are big talkers and irresponsible criticizers of Israel. Their opinion is discarded as Goldstone´s judgment is flawed.

As to smart bombs .....it is not about where you drop them, it is about who is firing at you from there. If there is a 120 mm. mortar in the school-yard you have the right to take it out! By the way, war is not something you argument 12 months later, specially not about hearsay.

[Grabaka80]

@Yitzhakhazak You my friend sound well acquainted with military equipment. And although HRW aren't experts on warfare, they do in fact employee military advisors who are. What HRW watch is good at is investigating and determining what sort of improprieties occur during the course of an armed conflict. I can't make heads or tails of your last comment, so I will leave it to stand on the merits of its muddled meaning.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80 Hamas did use people as human shields, there are videos of them doing this. t. HRW is a biased organization no less than the UN. Their military analyst Garlasco was a Nazi souvenir collector. If they concentrate their efforts in Israel more than in Darfur, China and Iran than I cant really rely on whatever they tell.

[Grabaka80]

@shishlik86 Unfortunately for you HRW wasn't the only group to investigate the atrocity which took place in Gaza. Amnesty International also sent in a team to investigate and came back with similar findings. I suppose they are biased too! I am almost certain your next point will claim that the IDF can investigate itself. And that there is no need for an independent, non-partisan party to investigate what had occurred in Operation Cast Lead.

[shishlik86]

@Grabaka80

/watch?v=vH0tEceCe9Y&feature=f­vs

[StonedStoner66]

Google ' Andrei Youshchinsky '