All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
For those who DO & DON’T believe in God, please read this prayer in love as a token of common goals.
Dear God, we call out to you, maybe for the 1st time or the billionth time, but today we ask for one thing, Truth. We trust that if You are there & capable that You would make Yourself known to all those who genuinely seek truth. The world we live in is full of lies & hate to the point where mankind has lost credibility. We ask you reveal Yourself to us in that we may know and understand. Amen!
Heaven and hell has to be complete fantasy. What sort of heaven would it be if half of your family and friends were in hell? It does'nt make sense....
@ATABOFACID Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
@neuromatiker Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
@neuromatiker I agree, but this idea goes both ways. this is the same idea as saying I (as a christian) am far away from the crusaders. I am also far away from the pope. The only comonality I share with the pope is a faith in Jesus Christ as God. I do not share the ritulals of the Catholic Church nor do I condone any(most) of their action; especially coverups for molestation and murder. Yet, somehow I have been grouped into a shared category of morality by atheists despite my differences.
@Inverita1 I understand your point, but would like to ask into your beliefs.
If you are a christian I will assume the refer to the bible as the word of god? If so then I would claim that you share sort of a manifesto with the pope and the crusaders, which gives you a lot of things in common.
If you do not hold the bible to be true, does it then make sense to call yourself a christian?
And if you hold parts of the bible as good and true, then who are you to do that with gods bible?
@neuromatiker I do believe in the Bible as the Word of God. However, I do not twist the Bible to slay people, just as Darwin didn't use survival of the fittest the way Stalin did. The source material is the same, true.. but the derived nature and use of that material is quite different. I know that by reading Jesus' non violent teachings that one must twist meaning to derive a kill everybody idea. Likewise, calling the pope father or vicar (replacement for Christ) is blasphemous and unbiblical.
@Inverita1 Well first of I think you are the one twisting if you claim the bible is not a preaching of violence and injust punishment, it is quite clear in many places, even stating that the text is to be taken literaly - but that is besides the point.
The point is that you DO have a common moral manifesto with the pope and the crusaders.
The origins of species is not moral, but merely a description of how nature works. Not guidelines or rules for society.
@neuromatiker Incorrect. The origin of species can lead one to believe that the most moral action is to purge the weak. It also is used in a tool for dehumanizing enemies.
In the old testiment, yes, God does command genocide but if you are going to argue that Jesus Christ litterally said to go and kill people I think you are sorely mistaken. I can explain why it was okay before Christ and not after, but the point is after Jesus it was wrong. So yes it takes twisting to derive that conclusion
@Inverita1 Reading Darwin that would compare to read an auto manual as all liquid must burn therefore blood must burn.
Origins of species does not claim to have anyhing to say about moral or society.
Jesus on the other hand say in Luke (19, 27) says: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Now I don't want his reign, and you are therefore ordered to slay me...
by the way - jesus is his father - the god from the OT
@neuromatiker Part 1: I challange you to actually read the scripture in context. Jesus is speaking in a parable at the end times. If we look at what happens in the End times it appears Jesus handles business himself agains the armies of the world.. so who are Jesus's enemies? Its strange youd identify yourself as the enemy when the enemy is a spiritual foe, Satan and his angels, which the Bible says man will judge.
@neuromatiker If you read Luke 19:11-26 yes, it is a parable. It starts by saying "...He went on to tell them a parable". So I'm not calling it anything it doesn't already say itself.
You think Hell is something it isn't. Hell is not God activly torturing. Hell is a withdrawl from God.God is peace, love, joy, comfort, rest...etc.
So Hell, being without God, is fear, hate, shame, pain, restlessness...etc.
So why should you have a right to enjoy God's nature if you say you don't want Him?
@neuromatiker Part 2: Its a shame you dont see how Darwinism can be used to twist the value of human beings into mearly animals (or even inanimate life molecules stacked with complexity) to rationalize the slauter of millions of people.
Marx said, “Darwin’s book is VERY important and serves me as a BASIS for the class struggle in history.”
If you look up quotes of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Marx you will see that Darwinism was the cause of their beliefs.
@Inverita1 Anything can be used to preach morals - like the auto manual. What I say is that the book itself (origins of species) does not try to say anything about that - it talks about species evolving in the physical form.
The bible on the other hand is specifically written to preach morals and stear society in a certain direction. A direction I find deeply imoral. The whole Idea of vicarious sin is repugnant to me (forgive my spelling - not english speaking)
@neuromatiker I never said the origin of species tells people to go out and kill. But it is the inspiration for dehuminizing people. Hitler made the argument that blond hair, blue eyed, whites were the next form of evolution and that we have a duty to man's progression to kill everyone not alike. Its not absurd to claim this or justify this if evolution really happened. This would make it an amoral book, or a book releiving one of morality, and institute a sense of duty to "survival/progression"
@neuromatiker You dont like the Bible because of its aknowledgment of sin, yet it is a fundimental understanding that humans have sin. This is mirrored in every religion and in most philospohical works. To say specifically that you don't like the Bible because it says what everyone else says about mans immoral actions is an excuse. We can agree lying,rape, and murder are bad, so there is an inherant system of morals to succumb to.
@Inverita1 thanks for the kind words. However just there, I did make a bad mistake. I did not mean vicarious sin, but vicarious redemption. The idea that one can do whatever evil I can think of; killing at ramdom for a lifetime or raping children as hobby, and on his deathbed repend and thereby be forgiven and go to paradise.
But if I do not believe in the right god (out of a thousand) without any evidence, I get to be tortured for eternity. That seems to as immoral as it can be.
@Inverita1 But you did not answer my question of how you as a man, gets to deside that a huge part of the word of god (the old testament) can be tossed out. Jesus did not say so.
So either you are picking and choosing in the word of god, or you don't really think it is the word of god... that would make it... just a bookitten by man. - and the our best work if you ask me.
@neuromatiker I dont know why you stated that I suggested this but I didn't decide that the OT gets to be tossed out. Jesus came and died for ALL sins, past present and future. It says He decended and preched to the saints and (sheol-paradise (abrahams bosom)/not heaven was underground) took the saints out. I dont decide anything. I am just reflecting on what the bible says, and am not picking and choosing as you suggested. Also, the bible is written by the hands of men by inspiration of God.
I'm not trying to argue again a point discussed already but i found this and wanted to share.. The subtitle to Darwin's book "On The Origin of Species" is "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". You said its not a manual but it does present a case for justifying racism and is actually pretty blatant about it.
@Inverita1 First of all, I have no idea why you posted that clip, but it does make the case of god being evil, half way desent.
Did you read O of S? Do you understand natural selection? Darwin is talking about how nature works, when left to itself, not about how human society should be build.
But I fear I have let you jump to the conclusion that all atheist must believe in O of S. that is not the case.
All an atheist has to belive is; that there is no god. Darwin or no Darwin.
I completely understand natural selection. I also believe that the Darwin believed we would have millions of fossil records of transitional species and we are hard pressed to find even one. I dont believe all atheists belive in O of S, but that tends to be the answer most given for "How?" and "Why". I believe all men are capable of evil and will use whatever source available to jump to selfish conclusions. That was my point.
@Inverita1 Are you kidding? we have many transitional species and we keep filling in the gaps. If you want to see them look at talkorigins.
I completely agree with you on the point that people tend to find what they are looking for, and i think a racist can find validation in most anything, including the bible and OofS. It frieghtens me a bit, that you find it too, but then again christians do believe in a people chosen by god.
@neuromatiker I just want to clarify that Christians believe that Israel is an example and is often used as a metephor for spiritual things. Biblically, God is actually harder on Israel than any other country. Even today we see the majority of the world lined up to destroy Israel. Biblically there is nothing to suggest that Israelites are supperior as a race but that God favors them for His metephorical purpose and makes them jump through hoops to demonstrate it.
@neuromatiker Part 2: My point was about the focus on Darwin. OofS definitly plays its role in justifying racism, but Darwin had other works which state more blatantly what he believed the end goal was.
Darwin wrote: At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. Quote cont in part 3...
...The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian [Aborigine] and the gorilla. The Descent of Man p.178
I'm not saying you have to be racist to believe in evolution, but I believe Darwin believed you did.
@neuromatiker One last remark from O of S. “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows...”
This quote means that in the animal kingdom progression occurs when animals root one another out by death. But if man is an animal according to Darwins theory, it then becomes acceptable to create famine or war to "advance" evolution or to enforce select breeding races.
@Inverita1 And left to nature you (and Darwin) would be right, but by the countiousness of man he is able to make choices beyound that. what I am saying is that Darwin is describing nature not what man should be doing.
I am traveling the next couple of days and will have to pick this up some time next week, as i don't have or a proper connection.
@neuromatiker No worries. Thank you very much for having this discussion with me. Feel free to send me a message any time. Be safe in your travels and God Bless. :-)
@Inverita1 One last commend before boarding (and I hate to have payed for this online time) I will take you best wishes, but please leave you imaginary friend out. I don't really like him, as he most likely would see my plaine crash and me burn in hell for eternaty, because I don't recognize him as more than a figment of imagination. - it is a bit rude, even when said in fun...
@neuromatiker I understand you possition and I maintain mine. I hope you didn't mean that I was being rude. If so I'm sorry I offended. I have Buddhist, Muslim, and Jewish friends who all think I'm going to hell (equivelant or lower reincarnation) based on their standards but I take their blessings in good faith. The God I follow isn't going to crash your plane out of pettyness and certaintly doesn't want you or anyone to burn in hell but that is a discussion for another day. :-)
With all due respects, if 1 or even 10,000 amputees were to call out to Christ and miraculously grow that new limb, it certainly wouldnt change the heart of 1 single atheist and I think we all know it!
@MrNeotheist I disagree. Perhaps it would be their fancy to first look for non miraculous causes, but without dogma, atheists are free to explore new evidence and ideas. Some may come to the conclusion that a personal god is the only explanation. Then you'd still have to argue which one did it mind you.
What did you think you'd accomplished by constructing a hypothetical "if then" statement? I could fabricate one that is derogatory towards any demographic. What does that prove?
4:45 Why do all christians that I've encountered (including Lennox here) fear eternal bliss??? "Thankfulness that I didn't die"???? Why is life so precious when eternal bliss awaits these christians? When do we come to grips with the insanity of this?
@blaisingm Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
So Dr. Lennox, did you bring your children into the world with the possibility of them rejecting you? If yes, did you also set the rules that if they did reject you, THEY WOULD BE PUNISHED IN THE MOST EXTREME AND AGONIZING WAY FOR ETERNITY AFTER THEY DIE? I doubt it. Yet, that is the condition for existence with your God, isn't it? The sadness of your grandchild dying shows nothing about your God. Surgeons saving your life still says nothing about your God. Zero proof yet a desire to believe.
@OyonTheAdept Do you have children? If yes, or even if you do not, would you impose rules on them saying that it is forbidden for them to reject you? Obviously, we as human beings could not enforce such a rule but would you if you could? I think that as a parent, you would allow them the free will to discover their own destiny, irregardless of your personal beliefs AND would not impose a punishment if your children did reject what you believe. The Christian God has done just that, hasn't it?cont
@OyonTheAdept You are "adept" at reading and comprehending, aren't you fellow atheist? Have I not explained clearly my point? What words in my message has impressed upon you that I am agitated? Oh, must have been the capital letters in my first message, true? Well, I used them to draw everyone's attention to the hypocrisy of Dr. Lennox's statement. Please read my messages again. They are quite coherent to anyone taking the time to read them. Read and think... you as a fellow atheist..cont
@OyonTheAdept cont... probably feel the same way I do. We are all responsible for our collective destiny. What we do to the our environment, economy, and our children will NOT be fixed by praying to some heavenly entity that not once has ever answered a prayer. Any theists reading that will scream at that last statement without understanding our perspective of it. People, through reason guided by logical yet compassionate morality, can fix the problems of our world. Superstitions will not help.
@BigDiamondCutter Yes. i feel the same way you do. praying is something to relieve oneself. if we gotta fix it, we gotta actually do it.... with hands.
@OyonTheAdept cont... The Christian God has demanded his children not reject him AND has created a punishment so sadistic and evil that the punishment makes the holocaust look like a mugging. Imagine how many souls must be writhing in the christian Hell by now. It would have to be in the 10's of billions by now. Countless people who will be suffering for eternity for the simplest offense of not believing in the correct god or rejecting that god for lack-of-evidence arguments (reason). cont2.
@OyonTheAdept cont2... Remember, this is what Lennox stated at the beginning. Also, his medical luck and family tragedies offer nothing into the argument whether God is real or not. I think that must be painfully obvious to anyone with a critical mind.
shermer has evaded questions and entire subjects all the way through this debate, he knew that athiesm offers no comfort to those who suffer because there is no justice for them, and hes is absolutely right to say that this question bares no relevance to the question of wether justice (God) actually exists or not, but surely this critsism should have been directed at the person who asked the irrelevant question not at John Lennox for simply being able to produce and answer to the question
@AaronLowden He has provided the most logical arguments the entire debate. Lennox uses ridiculous emotional pandering and persona anecdote to pull on the heartstrings while Shermer tells you straight up.
@AaronLowdenYou're wrong! Atheism offers real scientific cures, while John's imaginary God offers nothing but false hope. Don't believe me? The next time you get sick, tell the doctor John Lennox told you God will take care of you and deny our atheistic medicine. Bedrock of faith and hope? Ok, so let's lie to people because they can't handle life and all it entails.
As soon as the Video Begins, A question is asked and is Off topic. the debate isn't "What kind of a God" its DOES GOD EXiST....thats only more evidence that the new atheists are lead by their emotions not science.
@iowntwocats Its absurd. Not "It's absurd." Or to be more grammatically critical, do not use conjunctions. "It is absurd," is the most preferred. Thank you.
If God won't judge people who have never had the chance to even hear about Him, wouldn't it be better if Christianity was never taught anywhere? That way we could all go to heaven:P
Also, ~5:45 "(God) will never asses anybody on the basis of something they've never heard of"
Yet you're expecting us to believe based on the incredibly shakey/scant evidence that the resurrection actually happened? A concept that in and of itself is highly unbelievable, but that is presented in a book together with concepts that we know to be outright false? (i.e. literal genesis/creation by means other than evolution).
~7:25 - "I took the risk that (my children) wouldn't grow up to reject me"
Yeah, but you didn't then go and build a torture chamber in your basement that you planned to lock them up in just in case they DID reject you. That would be totally evil.
for you atheists out there, i will convert to atheism if you can show me how life started. im not talking about evolution. i understand about the single celled organisms evolving into multicellular organisms and so forth. i want to know where that single celled organism came from. it couldnt have always existed and since it had a beginning, where did that cell come from?
No John, i believe it's Ephesians that sias "In love he predestined us" in Genesis 6 we see that mans wikieness had grown greater on the earth and that every intention of his heart was only evil continually. When you are saved, you do not take any credit. Jesus did it all. Theres nothing we need to do to be redeemed, he does all the work. It is not unloving of God to impose his will on us. It isnot an act of rape, it is like a father on a child who is going to otherwise die.
God does not really give anyone problems they cannot handle. The problems he gives are not really problems, either. Problems are things you want to get rid of. If you have a child, then, who has a disorder, do you want to get rid of that child? I would hope not. Unfortunate situations happen due to the fact of free will. This includes sad situations, such as killings, happening.
If in your worldview, being made into a cripple, or brain dead vegetable, or KILLED, aren't considered problems by god that we can't handle, then I suppose there is NOTHING we can't handle.
If on the other hand, having a good life with at least fair health is the criteria, then your god obviously has pushed the limits of what we humans can endure.
@AtheistToothFairy having a good life... you know that kinda always boggles my mind about you atheists. if according to your belief of nature and evolution and stuff, then life is pointless. im a live simply because of chance and will die soon and my purpose is to pass on my genes to the next generation and then the next and so on? but my sons and my grandsons will soon die too. their lives will be pointless too. so basically its just a chain of pointless reproduction. that makes life pointless.
@xcode394:"if according to your belief of nature and evolution and stuff, then life is pointless"
And this alone explains to me why you'll forever remain a theists, because you are strong enough emotionally to face the harsh reality we actually live in.
In a nutshell, you don't care about truth, but rather what lies you can convince yourself are truths to live by.....
@AtheistToothFairy hahaha you say it like its a shame to be a theist and to believe in God. contrary to that, it is quite the opposite. and no no no i certainly do care about the truth. i read about science all the time and i am slowly realizing that john lennox is right about the fact that science actually points to God rather than away from it. i was an atheist once and but no more and i dont regret it for a second.
@AtheistToothFairy and also, you never answered my question about the issue of love. if we are simply here to pass on to our genes, then it is more safe to say that women are reproduction machines. and yet we experience love for each other. I love this one girl very much and she is very attractive and yet i dont lust over her. but shouldnt it be my nature to want to simply mate with her? if im simply here to pass on my genes, then love shouldnt exist and i simply want to mate with her.
@xcode394 Are you saying you don't want to mate with her? :) Love is oxytocin and norepinephrine. A child has a greater chance of survival if the male sticks around to help protect it. That's the function of love. It also explains why love wears off most of the time (evidence: love based marriages end half the time). Once the child reaches a certain age, the male is no longer needed. See "Why We Love" by Helen Fischer. Any respectful response is most welcome. Disrespectful responses, not so much
@twiedenfeld yes i agree i do, but im talking about lust... its the constant feeling of wanting to have sex with her, which is simply despicable. yes i love her and yes i'd have sex with her but according to nature, that should be the ONLY thing that i want to do because i ONLY want to fertilize her egg. " once a child reaches a certain age, the male is no longer needed"??? then how do you explain that im 19 years old and my friend is 22 years old and our dads are still there for us constantly?
@twiedenfeld in your explanation, love that we know of between a male and female shouldnt exist? why do marriages exist? why is our marriage based alot ( not all, i know that) on love? if accordng to your atheistic approach of biology, then marriage isnt necessary. because I just need to mate with her. staying with the female to care for the child is not love towards the female but purely biology, nature does not teach us to jump into a burning building to say our girlfriend or wives.
@AtheistToothFairy i refuse to believe that we are simply here without any purpose at all and simply to mate. if so, then what is the point of loving a girl? if we are simply trying to find a mate then our purpose of finding a girl is simply to pass on our genes to reproduce and the love doesnt come into the equation at all. there are plenty of animals in nature that simply mates and leaves the female or simply acts like the dominant male in a group and let the female take care of the young.
@xcode394 "for you atheists out there, i will convert to atheism if you can show me how life started."
"i refuse to believe that we are simply here without any purpose at all and simply to mate."
If I could, you'd still "refuse to believe" in a universe w/o a god. Why pretend to be interested in truth when you're interested in what suits your interests? And showing the origin of life wouldn't negate a god, so that would be a stupid reason to abandon your faith-- not that I believe you would.
@reasonformirrors no i search for the truth and evidences. Yes i believe in the judeo-christian God. thats because I see a reason for it. and no i am not stubborn. if you can show me where life came from, i will be an atheist. after all, i used to be an atheist but I became a christian based on evidences. so, if you can show me where that first cell started, ill convert. even if you say that aliens planted it, well where did those cells that they planted come from? how did they start?
@xcode394 When you go on about how pointless life is w/o god and how you refuse to believe in something that you find undesirable, your motives are clear. Have Christians shown you where life came from? I know that they told you a story that seemed to make sense and made you feel special and not pointless, but have they showed you? Have Christians shown you where the first cell, man, plant, etc. came from? Has a Christian shown you God? Again, they told you a story but have they shown you?
@xcode394 I'm not a theist, but I know that someone showing you the origin of life is a stupid reason to abandon your faith, since a god could always be behind that explanation. This is why I simply find you to be disingenuous when you say that. And if you are being sincere, let me say that, even though I don't think you have good reasons to have faith, I think it would be rather foolish of you to leave your faith because someone could show you the origin of life.
@AtheistToothFairy What problems can people not handle versus choose not to handle? For example, if I gave you a hard math problem you could handle, you might CHOOSE not to handle it. So ask yourself if the problems you are thinking about are problems people are just choosing not to handle.
@AtheistToothFairy As for the first question, of course charity. But even food and such is sometimes stolen by terrorist organizations and such. These terrorist organizations are people acting on their freewill which God does not interfere with. Kids dying of cancer is sad, but for one thing, research is going on right now, even by Christian institutions such as St. Jude. But, death is natural, though, and who is to say, scientifically, when it is time to pass away?
@comeonfolks:"even food and such is sometimes stolen by terrorist...Kids dying of cancer is sad, but for one thing, research is going on right now"
Do you not see the obvious in your reply, that you're simply making excuses for your MISSING GOD?
God doesn't tend to the poor or sick, EVER!
In fact, if it wasn't for medical science by HUMANS, more of those kids would be dying compared to if all we did was send up useless prayers to a MIA god, right?
@AtheistToothFairy God gives people opportunities. The is a story that goes something like this. A man in a flood prayed that God would save him. "Please God Save me," said the man. A cow comes by so close that the man could hop on the cow's back, yet the man did not do it. Eventually, the man drowns in the flood. When he arrives to heaven, he asks why God didn't save him. God says that he sent a cow so that the man could ride the cow to safety.
@AtheistToothFairy Anyway, this debate is not going to go anywhere on youtube with only 500 some odd words to post. Just because you choose to ignore all the signs, does not mean there is no God. An if you are an atheist, I assume you do no believe in the Devil, and "Choosing not to believe in the Devil will not protect you from him."
@comeonfolks:"I assume you do no believe in the Devil"
Of course not, that would be SILLY to believe in such a myth.
If YOU think the devil is real, then why did your god create this evil being, then fail to know it would rebel, then instead of killing his MISTAKE, he sends this creature down to OUR planet to tempt/taunt lowly HUMANS?
Also, why does the devil seem act in a way as to hasten the 'end times' and his own demise?
2:05 John Lennox "I said at the start that this is the hardest problem. Because it's extremely hard to wriggle out of this one by talking fluffy nonsense and treating you all like sheep. So I'll talk shit for a while until you forget the question and try to bag atheism by imposing utopianism on it, which is nonsensical, since atheism is a lack of belief. Praise Dog."
I have the answer to the first question of that lady but not the second. Creation "WAS" perfect, In the beginning there was no death disease no virus no illness, that "WAS" the creation in its perfection. God was the being who sustained all life because in him is life & there is no death...its not until man's fall that the life of God departed and death disease & decay entered the world, its the ministry of Jesus that shows that God was trying to being that life back by healings&the ressurection
@Law19157 Your answer is still not sufficient. IF God created man, and IF God is omniscient, then God knew that the curiosity with which he endowed his creation would eventually lead his creation to fall. How evil this God!! Secondly, why would this God curse his creation with death and suffering for such a harmless disobedience? And why would God curse all of Adam's progeny for his disobedience? Because he is an evil god or he is a fabrication of man. Which is it?
@burkerow Awe man, those are the only choices are huh? hmmmm.....1) The answer is sufficient for the question that was asked, it is the explanation you are changing the topic. 2) how exactly do you know what evil is?
@Law19157 1/2 I will say that no, your answer is not sufficient and I did not change the subject. The subject, if I understand correctly is - Why is the world not perfect? Why do we experience suffering and death from "natural" causes. This is one of the biggest problems of theodicy. Your answer-Creation WAS perfect......until man's fall.
My criticism of that is still the same. God knew that he was creating an "imperfect" being or he would not have disobeyed. He knew ahead that Adam would sin.
@burkerow So what are you saying....the ability to choose and think freely makes one imperfect? on the contrary to be conscience and have the ability to choose, think & reason freely makes one perfect. Its not his ability to choose that makes him imperfect its what he chooses that does. Adam 'WAS' perfect ,he was given everything thing he needed to succeed, all of creation was subject to him even Satan (He was given Authority). Adam wasn't a Child, he was a Mature Adult.
@Law19157 No, the ability to choose and think freely does not make one imperfect. Adam only did what was natural and he did "exactly" what God created him to do. He did exactly what God predicted he would do. No he did what God knew he would do. If you saw that your child was about to walk off a cliff and die, wouldn't you stop her? But no, God allowed Adam to step off the cliff and die. If you did that to your child you would be culpable. I don't give God a pass on this one.
@burkerow 1) Natural? what was natural to him?.....2) A child jump of a cliff? let me ask you something sir, do YOU know not to jump of a cliff that if you did you would die?
@Law19157 You don't have children do you? Or maybe you're not really thinking this through? Of course I know not to jump off a cliff. But people fall off cliffs all the time. Out of curiosity we climb over fences because our curiosity makes us want a better look. But would you limit your child's free will if she did that? Would you put matches or razor blades within her reach and then say "don't touch these, you'll get hurt"? NO! you would not.
@burkerow No you don't seem to get it. 'You Know' not to jump of cliff because you know you'll die, I child 'doesn't know' any better. What applies to a child doesn't apply to an adult Its called being mature or growing up or being responsible. 'YOU know' how to use a razor, a child 'doesn't know'. I told you Adam was a Mature Adult not a 4 year year old. 'He Knew'...it was made clear to him. You still gonna hold your child's hand when he's 28 & married?....
@Law19157 You still gonna hold your child's hand when he's 28 & married?....
Of course I would physically prevent my 28 year old from harming himself. I doesn't even need to be my own child for me to protect. If I saw a stranger about to intentionally take his own life I would intervene. And guess what? He would be taken into protective custody and have his "free choice" taken away from him.....for awhile.
For you to suggest we do otherwise is to call your own morals into question.
@burkerow So...you do favor authority whether its yours or above your own. Did I suggest do to do otherwise? your putting words in my mouth...I was making a point about about Adam something you seem to have ignored.
@Law19157 I never said I don't believe in laws or authority. Did I? We would have anarchy without them. How did I ignore the conversation about God and Adam?
I'm talking about a responsibility to protect other people, and a responsibility God had to Adam. It's indefensible.
@burkerow Its only in your opinion that to you it was a fail. You can't understand something you don't know anything about. Your close minded & self-righteous and sit in Judgment of this God you hate....It's one to believe in God its another to know him.
I don't hate God. How can I had God when I don't believe in him? I do hate this sick perverted concept of God which man has created to use for their own purposes.
It is quite easy for you to say I don't know anything about God or the Bible.
I used to be Christian, born and raise Christian, "born again" at 18 years old. Taught Sunday school in my twenties.
Do I know everything? No
Are you arrogant enough to say you do? I bet you are.
@burkerow "Do I know everything? No" - keep that in mind when your passing Judgment on God. "I do hate this sick 'perverted concept' of God which man has created to use for their own purposes" - Your being a hypocrite its you that's created this perverted concept, your the only one that see's God this way...There's no Christian Theist that see's him the way you do.
@Law19157 its you that's created this perverted concept, your the only one that see's God this way...There's no Christian Theist that see's him the way you do.
I understand that theist don't see God this way. Christians cherry pick the bible.
You're having difficulty defending the fall of Adam. You've not defended the temptation scourge Job and the death of his children for no reason than to prove a point to satan..one of God's angels by the way.
@burkerow You believed in God you didn't know. You ever heard of Pentecost? the third member of the Godhead Holy Spirit? no...you may have believed but you've never had an encounter with him...people who have been baptized in him Know God...they've seen his power work. He's only accessible if someone steps out in faith and pursues him, that's when he'll come into their lives & they'll know. Wanna see a miracle?...go to a crusade.
@burkerow ...no your not, you teach him virtue & train him to do what's right so when he gets older he can make the right decisions on his own....without you being there to baby him. I think I've made my point on responsibility
@Law19157 You've made a good point for responsibility, that's true. But what about the responsibility of someone (God) that places a "forbidden tree" within access to someone, knowing full well he would eat it and the consequence would be death. That's even worse than irresponsible. What is the reason for the tree being there if not to test?
Im sorry, this is just a bad story. But what's new, so is the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac. And we can go on and on with bad stories.
@Law19157 Natural curiosity-- why would you even ask me what is natural to Adam? I could grow a tree in the middle of a garden and tell the people who lived there not to eat of the fruit. And guess what? I can predict with almost absolute certainty that someone, sometime would eat it. And I'm not even god. So maybe I should fence it. So maybe if it was deadly poison I should dig it out.
@Law19157 So apparently my cliff analogy doesn't go anywhere with you. You're so intent on defending your god that you don't get it. It doesn't matter whether its a cliff or someone walking into oncoming traffic, whatever, the point is we don't allow people to harm themselves when we have a chance to stop it.
So either God did not predict this and he's not omniscient. Or he wasn't there so he's not omnipresent. Or he knew and couldn't do any thing so he's not omnipotent.
@burkerow & what exactly do you call someone who walks out into oncoming traffic or strolling near a cliff?...I have a few words for it - careless & irresponsible or sometimes just plain dumb
@Law19157 Yep, people do stupid and irresponsible things all the time that end up harming themselves. That's why we often make laws to protect people from themselves. Seatbelt laws, helmet laws and on and on.
And why would god put this tree there anyway? To test or tempt his beloved creation?
The only thing that redeems this story is just that....it's a story, a myth.
@burkerow Oh you favor laws....did you forget the foundation that the laws of this land was founded?....how many times do I have to repeat myself, there were 2 trees, Life & Death he was suppose to pick life. It's your belief that it a myth. Beliefs aren't scientific are they?
@Law19157 Beliefs are scientific as long as they've been tested against skepticism. It's belief in something unseen and unobserved that is unscientific.
And you can repeat yourself about the two trees until the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact that to place a tree there for no known purpose except to temp or test with the full knowledge that Adam and Eve would choose death is an illogical story. Why contrive this mess to begin with? It's a myth sir.
@Law19157 I am lecturing you on morals because yours don't seem so well defined. But how could they be, you get them from a 2 to 3 thousand year old book of myths.
@burkerow lol! then you've contradicted your self...the criteria you've used to condemn God holds no ground of its own...it means convictions make no sense
@Law19157 No, I have not contradicted myself, but I knew you would jump on this comment.
Do we really have time and space for this type of philosophical debate here?
Just one example that comes to my mind. We do allow harm, when it might lead to good. A perfect example is performing surgery to remove a tumor. We place ourself at risk of great harm and injury, but it's with the intent of bringing about a greater good. That's what I meant when I said it's not absolute.
@Law19157 "And...how exactly do you know God wasn't doing the same?"
I'm sorry, big difference. So God punishes Adam with death, when he could have saved him. He later destroys the earth with all the people and animals, save for a few on a boat and you call this the greater good?
He demands child sacrifice. Huh?
I have asked you to explain what good comes from all of this and you can't
I know "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah right.
@burkerow And just because God Knows what your gonna do doesn't mean he's going to make choices for you. He made man responsible for his he own actions. Just because you 'CAN' do something doesn't mean you Should...Its called being Responsible. Man was made FREE to choose. Also the tree of Knowledge wasn't the only tree Adam could choose from...there was one right next to it, It was called the tree of Life (Immortality) Life & Death...he was suppose to choose life
@Law19157 Again, if your child disobeys you, you correct her. If you do happen to punish her, you make the punishment fit the crime. So all of mankind, all of Adam's progeny is punish for a minor infraction of Adam.
Where do you get your sense of justice? Oh yeah the bible.
And BTW, not to change the subject but it was a talking serpent not satan that tempted Eve. It was a much later Christian theological concept that turned the serpent into Satan.
@Law19157 No I don't take the muslim view of the bible, but I do think they understand it better than most Christians.
You say "God spoke about who the snake was in Revelation". Can you provide the verse reference?
But by siting Revelation, you made my point for me. Satan in general and Satan as the serpent in Genesis is a later Christian construct. The serpent in Genesis is just a talking serpent.
@burkerow "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:9 (KJV)
@Law19157 I assumed you were referring to this verse. But again the connection between satan and the serpent of Genesis was a late "Christian" development, appearing hundreds of years after whomever wrote Genesis wrote it. Go find a reference to Satan in Genesis for me.
@Law19157 "hmmm....I see why you favor the Islamic translation, it fits your perception of God"
You see, you're trying to evade issues here. That is not an Islamic translation anymore than a Christian biblical understanding. My comment does not stand at odds with most biblical scholars.
The fact is I don't favor ANY perception of God, Christian or Islamic.
That's not entirely true. The ONLY concept of God I can't deny, is a deist or an Aristotelean god, but only for philosophical reasons.
Isaiah 45: 6-7 "I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the LORD do all these things."
Where's Satan here? Looks like the LORD creates and does evil.
You have not yet responded to the Job problem either. Cherry picking?
@burkerow the evil is ra' in Hebrew and is not referring to moral evil...but something physical. Satan challenged God, Job was protected. God believed in Job & and the protection was removed after the challenge was excepted. Satan afflicted Job not God and wife was never killed. All said and done Job was REPAID in FULL & then some. The only one cherry picking here is you. You pick out all the things you think is wrong & leave out all the good. Classic politics
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All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
mamainmancj 1 day ago
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For those who DO & DON’T believe in God, please read this prayer in love as a token of common goals.
Dear God, we call out to you, maybe for the 1st time or the billionth time, but today we ask for one thing, Truth. We trust that if You are there & capable that You would make Yourself known to all those who genuinely seek truth. The world we live in is full of lies & hate to the point where mankind has lost credibility. We ask you reveal Yourself to us in that we may know and understand. Amen!
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
god will never judge anyone for not having evidence he does not have?
is that from the bible or is it your intuition?
niinja2 1 month ago
Heaven and hell has to be complete fantasy. What sort of heaven would it be if half of your family and friends were in hell? It does'nt make sense....
ATABOFACID 1 month ago
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@ATABOFACID Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@charnhil really? I think it's the other way around... Sherman hasnt done anything and I'm agnostic... Well idk probably not for long.
Shananaginns1887 1 month ago
Shermer answers the questions. Lennox talks like a politician - always avoiding the question.
charnhill 2 months ago
funny how everbody (incuding Lennox) know what ideas atheist have, when ALL we have in commonn is we don't not beleive in a god.
I would like to think myself as far apart from Stalin as I am from the pope. I renouce both set ideas they represent.
It makes as little sence for a communist to label me as a fundamentalist muslim, as a religious man to put me in the same boat as Pol Pot.
neuromatiker 3 months ago
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@neuromatiker Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@neuromatiker I agree, but this idea goes both ways. this is the same idea as saying I (as a christian) am far away from the crusaders. I am also far away from the pope. The only comonality I share with the pope is a faith in Jesus Christ as God. I do not share the ritulals of the Catholic Church nor do I condone any(most) of their action; especially coverups for molestation and murder. Yet, somehow I have been grouped into a shared category of morality by atheists despite my differences.
Inverita1 4 weeks ago
@Inverita1 I understand your point, but would like to ask into your beliefs.
If you are a christian I will assume the refer to the bible as the word of god? If so then I would claim that you share sort of a manifesto with the pope and the crusaders, which gives you a lot of things in common.
If you do not hold the bible to be true, does it then make sense to call yourself a christian?
And if you hold parts of the bible as good and true, then who are you to do that with gods bible?
neuromatiker 4 weeks ago
@neuromatiker I do believe in the Bible as the Word of God. However, I do not twist the Bible to slay people, just as Darwin didn't use survival of the fittest the way Stalin did. The source material is the same, true.. but the derived nature and use of that material is quite different. I know that by reading Jesus' non violent teachings that one must twist meaning to derive a kill everybody idea. Likewise, calling the pope father or vicar (replacement for Christ) is blasphemous and unbiblical.
Inverita1 4 weeks ago
@Inverita1 Well first of I think you are the one twisting if you claim the bible is not a preaching of violence and injust punishment, it is quite clear in many places, even stating that the text is to be taken literaly - but that is besides the point.
The point is that you DO have a common moral manifesto with the pope and the crusaders.
The origins of species is not moral, but merely a description of how nature works. Not guidelines or rules for society.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Incorrect. The origin of species can lead one to believe that the most moral action is to purge the weak. It also is used in a tool for dehumanizing enemies.
In the old testiment, yes, God does command genocide but if you are going to argue that Jesus Christ litterally said to go and kill people I think you are sorely mistaken. I can explain why it was okay before Christ and not after, but the point is after Jesus it was wrong. So yes it takes twisting to derive that conclusion
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 Reading Darwin that would compare to read an auto manual as all liquid must burn therefore blood must burn.
Origins of species does not claim to have anyhing to say about moral or society.
Jesus on the other hand say in Luke (19, 27) says: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Now I don't want his reign, and you are therefore ordered to slay me...
by the way - jesus is his father - the god from the OT
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Part 1: I challange you to actually read the scripture in context. Jesus is speaking in a parable at the end times. If we look at what happens in the End times it appears Jesus handles business himself agains the armies of the world.. so who are Jesus's enemies? Its strange youd identify yourself as the enemy when the enemy is a spiritual foe, Satan and his angels, which the Bible says man will judge.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 :) - now you are picking and choosing again apologizing for the part you don't like by calling it parables. Lets make it simple then....
I don't believe is that a sin?
If it is, am I not to be tortured for eternity? And how is that not cruel?
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker If you read Luke 19:11-26 yes, it is a parable. It starts by saying "...He went on to tell them a parable". So I'm not calling it anything it doesn't already say itself.
You think Hell is something it isn't. Hell is not God activly torturing. Hell is a withdrawl from God.God is peace, love, joy, comfort, rest...etc.
So Hell, being without God, is fear, hate, shame, pain, restlessness...etc.
So why should you have a right to enjoy God's nature if you say you don't want Him?
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Part 2: Its a shame you dont see how Darwinism can be used to twist the value of human beings into mearly animals (or even inanimate life molecules stacked with complexity) to rationalize the slauter of millions of people.
Marx said, “Darwin’s book is VERY important and serves me as a BASIS for the class struggle in history.”
If you look up quotes of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Marx you will see that Darwinism was the cause of their beliefs.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 Anything can be used to preach morals - like the auto manual. What I say is that the book itself (origins of species) does not try to say anything about that - it talks about species evolving in the physical form.
The bible on the other hand is specifically written to preach morals and stear society in a certain direction. A direction I find deeply imoral. The whole Idea of vicarious sin is repugnant to me (forgive my spelling - not english speaking)
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker I never said the origin of species tells people to go out and kill. But it is the inspiration for dehuminizing people. Hitler made the argument that blond hair, blue eyed, whites were the next form of evolution and that we have a duty to man's progression to kill everyone not alike. Its not absurd to claim this or justify this if evolution really happened. This would make it an amoral book, or a book releiving one of morality, and institute a sense of duty to "survival/progression"
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker You dont like the Bible because of its aknowledgment of sin, yet it is a fundimental understanding that humans have sin. This is mirrored in every religion and in most philospohical works. To say specifically that you don't like the Bible because it says what everyone else says about mans immoral actions is an excuse. We can agree lying,rape, and murder are bad, so there is an inherant system of morals to succumb to.
BTW, your English is fine.. :-)
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
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neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
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neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
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@Inverita1 thanks for the kind words. However just there, I did make a bad mistake. I did not mean vicarious sin, but vicarious redemption. The idea that one can do whatever evil I can think of; killing at ramdom for a lifetime or raping children as hobby, and on his deathbed repend and thereby be forgiven and go to paradise.
But if I do not believe in the right god (out of a thousand) without any evidence, I get to be tortured for eternity. That seems to as immoral as it can be.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 But you did not answer my question of how you as a man, gets to deside that a huge part of the word of god (the old testament) can be tossed out. Jesus did not say so.
So either you are picking and choosing in the word of god, or you don't really think it is the word of god... that would make it... just a bookitten by man. - and the our best work if you ask me.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker I dont know why you stated that I suggested this but I didn't decide that the OT gets to be tossed out. Jesus came and died for ALL sins, past present and future. It says He decended and preched to the saints and (sheol-paradise (abrahams bosom)/not heaven was underground) took the saints out. I dont decide anything. I am just reflecting on what the bible says, and am not picking and choosing as you suggested. Also, the bible is written by the hands of men by inspiration of God.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 Now you are changing statements. before the bible was the word of god - now it is inspiration - please make up your mind.
But I have good news to you. You do deside a lot more than anything, and I guess dismissing parts of the bible is part of the way there.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Hello again,
I'm not trying to argue again a point discussed already but i found this and wanted to share.. The subtitle to Darwin's book "On The Origin of Species" is "The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". You said its not a manual but it does present a case for justifying racism and is actually pretty blatant about it.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 First of all, I have no idea why you posted that clip, but it does make the case of god being evil, half way desent.
Did you read O of S? Do you understand natural selection? Darwin is talking about how nature works, when left to itself, not about how human society should be build.
But I fear I have let you jump to the conclusion that all atheist must believe in O of S. that is not the case.
All an atheist has to belive is; that there is no god. Darwin or no Darwin.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Not sure what clip you mean..
I completely understand natural selection. I also believe that the Darwin believed we would have millions of fossil records of transitional species and we are hard pressed to find even one. I dont believe all atheists belive in O of S, but that tends to be the answer most given for "How?" and "Why". I believe all men are capable of evil and will use whatever source available to jump to selfish conclusions. That was my point.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 Are you kidding? we have many transitional species and we keep filling in the gaps. If you want to see them look at talkorigins.
I completely agree with you on the point that people tend to find what they are looking for, and i think a racist can find validation in most anything, including the bible and OofS. It frieghtens me a bit, that you find it too, but then again christians do believe in a people chosen by god.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker I just want to clarify that Christians believe that Israel is an example and is often used as a metephor for spiritual things. Biblically, God is actually harder on Israel than any other country. Even today we see the majority of the world lined up to destroy Israel. Biblically there is nothing to suggest that Israelites are supperior as a race but that God favors them for His metephorical purpose and makes them jump through hoops to demonstrate it.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Part 2: My point was about the focus on Darwin. OofS definitly plays its role in justifying racism, but Darwin had other works which state more blatantly what he believed the end goal was.
Darwin wrote: At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. Quote cont in part 3...
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker Part 3: Quote continued
...The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian [Aborigine] and the gorilla. The Descent of Man p.178
I'm not saying you have to be racist to believe in evolution, but I believe Darwin believed you did.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker One last remark from O of S. “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows...”
This quote means that in the animal kingdom progression occurs when animals root one another out by death. But if man is an animal according to Darwins theory, it then becomes acceptable to create famine or war to "advance" evolution or to enforce select breeding races.
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 And left to nature you (and Darwin) would be right, but by the countiousness of man he is able to make choices beyound that. what I am saying is that Darwin is describing nature not what man should be doing.
I am traveling the next couple of days and will have to pick this up some time next week, as i don't have or a proper connection.
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker No worries. Thank you very much for having this discussion with me. Feel free to send me a message any time. Be safe in your travels and God Bless. :-)
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
@Inverita1 One last commend before boarding (and I hate to have payed for this online time) I will take you best wishes, but please leave you imaginary friend out. I don't really like him, as he most likely would see my plaine crash and me burn in hell for eternaty, because I don't recognize him as more than a figment of imagination. - it is a bit rude, even when said in fun...
neuromatiker 3 weeks ago
@neuromatiker I understand you possition and I maintain mine. I hope you didn't mean that I was being rude. If so I'm sorry I offended. I have Buddhist, Muslim, and Jewish friends who all think I'm going to hell (equivelant or lower reincarnation) based on their standards but I take their blessings in good faith. The God I follow isn't going to crash your plane out of pettyness and certaintly doesn't want you or anyone to burn in hell but that is a discussion for another day. :-)
Inverita1 3 weeks ago
With all due respects, if 1 or even 10,000 amputees were to call out to Christ and miraculously grow that new limb, it certainly wouldnt change the heart of 1 single atheist and I think we all know it!
MrNeotheist 3 months ago
@MrNeotheist I disagree. Perhaps it would be their fancy to first look for non miraculous causes, but without dogma, atheists are free to explore new evidence and ideas. Some may come to the conclusion that a personal god is the only explanation. Then you'd still have to argue which one did it mind you.
What did you think you'd accomplished by constructing a hypothetical "if then" statement? I could fabricate one that is derogatory towards any demographic. What does that prove?
J0shReed 2 months ago
4:45 Why do all christians that I've encountered (including Lennox here) fear eternal bliss??? "Thankfulness that I didn't die"???? Why is life so precious when eternal bliss awaits these christians? When do we come to grips with the insanity of this?
blaisingm 4 months ago
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@blaisingm Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
Lennox is preaching!
myroseaccount 4 months ago
ooohhh. i get it. sry bout that XD
OyonTheAdept 5 months ago
So Dr. Lennox, did you bring your children into the world with the possibility of them rejecting you? If yes, did you also set the rules that if they did reject you, THEY WOULD BE PUNISHED IN THE MOST EXTREME AND AGONIZING WAY FOR ETERNITY AFTER THEY DIE? I doubt it. Yet, that is the condition for existence with your God, isn't it? The sadness of your grandchild dying shows nothing about your God. Surgeons saving your life still says nothing about your God. Zero proof yet a desire to believe.
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter you er......what?
what the hell. i don't understand what you're trying to say.
OyonTheAdept 5 months ago
@OyonTheAdept Do you have children? If yes, or even if you do not, would you impose rules on them saying that it is forbidden for them to reject you? Obviously, we as human beings could not enforce such a rule but would you if you could? I think that as a parent, you would allow them the free will to discover their own destiny, irregardless of your personal beliefs AND would not impose a punishment if your children did reject what you believe. The Christian God has done just that, hasn't it?cont
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter Dude, calm down. you shouldn't act before you speak.
im a fucking atheist, FFS
OyonTheAdept 5 months ago
@OyonTheAdept You are "adept" at reading and comprehending, aren't you fellow atheist? Have I not explained clearly my point? What words in my message has impressed upon you that I am agitated? Oh, must have been the capital letters in my first message, true? Well, I used them to draw everyone's attention to the hypocrisy of Dr. Lennox's statement. Please read my messages again. They are quite coherent to anyone taking the time to read them. Read and think... you as a fellow atheist..cont
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
@OyonTheAdept cont... probably feel the same way I do. We are all responsible for our collective destiny. What we do to the our environment, economy, and our children will NOT be fixed by praying to some heavenly entity that not once has ever answered a prayer. Any theists reading that will scream at that last statement without understanding our perspective of it. People, through reason guided by logical yet compassionate morality, can fix the problems of our world. Superstitions will not help.
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter Yes. i feel the same way you do. praying is something to relieve oneself. if we gotta fix it, we gotta actually do it.... with hands.
OyonTheAdept 5 months ago
@OyonTheAdept cont... The Christian God has demanded his children not reject him AND has created a punishment so sadistic and evil that the punishment makes the holocaust look like a mugging. Imagine how many souls must be writhing in the christian Hell by now. It would have to be in the 10's of billions by now. Countless people who will be suffering for eternity for the simplest offense of not believing in the correct god or rejecting that god for lack-of-evidence arguments (reason). cont2.
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
@OyonTheAdept cont2... Remember, this is what Lennox stated at the beginning. Also, his medical luck and family tragedies offer nothing into the argument whether God is real or not. I think that must be painfully obvious to anyone with a critical mind.
BigDiamondCutter 5 months ago
I love how all these Christians talk like they know everything God does, has done, and MAY do....the height of arrogance.
2MuchSkill 6 months ago
shermer has evaded questions and entire subjects all the way through this debate, he knew that athiesm offers no comfort to those who suffer because there is no justice for them, and hes is absolutely right to say that this question bares no relevance to the question of wether justice (God) actually exists or not, but surely this critsism should have been directed at the person who asked the irrelevant question not at John Lennox for simply being able to produce and answer to the question
AaronLowden 7 months ago
@AaronLowden He has provided the most logical arguments the entire debate. Lennox uses ridiculous emotional pandering and persona anecdote to pull on the heartstrings while Shermer tells you straight up.
2MuchSkill 6 months ago
@AaronLowdenYou're wrong! Atheism offers real scientific cures, while John's imaginary God offers nothing but false hope. Don't believe me? The next time you get sick, tell the doctor John Lennox told you God will take care of you and deny our atheistic medicine. Bedrock of faith and hope? Ok, so let's lie to people because they can't handle life and all it entails.
kingwillie206 6 months ago
As soon as the Video Begins, A question is asked and is Off topic. the debate isn't "What kind of a God" its DOES GOD EXiST....thats only more evidence that the new atheists are lead by their emotions not science.
SylvanSage 7 months ago
It's absurd. Not abzurd.
iowntwocats 7 months ago
@iowntwocats Its absurd. Not "It's absurd." Or to be more grammatically critical, do not use conjunctions. "It is absurd," is the most preferred. Thank you.
Damonferal 7 months ago
If God won't judge people who have never had the chance to even hear about Him, wouldn't it be better if Christianity was never taught anywhere? That way we could all go to heaven:P
aimonaali 8 months ago
You fucking atheist are hopeless little trolls and ultimately, youre all losers
Seigu007 8 months ago
what are the Atheists cheering about? You fucking God haters represent the idiocy of today. Yay! lets celebrate the fact that we have noses!
Seigu007 8 months ago
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bpolyamorousb 7 months ago
Dang John Lennox is a beast -he's been answering some very tough questions.
M3PanoS 8 months ago
@M3PanoS Answering them poorly, but answering them none the less.
samusssbm85 8 months ago
@samusssbm85 Nah he gives good answers.
M3PanoS 8 months ago
Lol sounds like none of you ever read the bible so how can you assume it's knowledge and mock it the atheist is also a religion it's called humanism
777DARKSTATE777 8 months ago
Also, ~5:45 "(God) will never asses anybody on the basis of something they've never heard of"
Yet you're expecting us to believe based on the incredibly shakey/scant evidence that the resurrection actually happened? A concept that in and of itself is highly unbelievable, but that is presented in a book together with concepts that we know to be outright false? (i.e. literal genesis/creation by means other than evolution).
Brettah31 9 months ago
~7:25 - "I took the risk that (my children) wouldn't grow up to reject me"
Yeah, but you didn't then go and build a torture chamber in your basement that you planned to lock them up in just in case they DID reject you. That would be totally evil.
Brettah31 9 months ago 2
for you atheists out there, i will convert to atheism if you can show me how life started. im not talking about evolution. i understand about the single celled organisms evolving into multicellular organisms and so forth. i want to know where that single celled organism came from. it couldnt have always existed and since it had a beginning, where did that cell come from?
xcode394 9 months ago
Lennox = rambling nonsense. He simply cannot explain anything with his "logic".
sids500 9 months ago
No John, i believe it's Ephesians that sias "In love he predestined us" in Genesis 6 we see that mans wikieness had grown greater on the earth and that every intention of his heart was only evil continually. When you are saved, you do not take any credit. Jesus did it all. Theres nothing we need to do to be redeemed, he does all the work. It is not unloving of God to impose his will on us. It isnot an act of rape, it is like a father on a child who is going to otherwise die.
desasterz 9 months ago
good answer, lennox
as a side note, what is that chairman wearing?! lol :)
GoldenbanjoDJ 11 months ago
My theory is, is that having a child with a disorder of some sort perfects love.
comeonfolks 11 months ago
God does not really give anyone problems they cannot handle. The problems he gives are not really problems, either. Problems are things you want to get rid of. If you have a child, then, who has a disorder, do you want to get rid of that child? I would hope not. Unfortunate situations happen due to the fact of free will. This includes sad situations, such as killings, happening.
comeonfolks 11 months ago
@comeonfolks:"God does not really give anyone problems they cannot handle"
That is one of the biggest lies you xtians have ever told to the world!
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy How is this comment a lie.?
comeonfolks 11 months ago
@comeonfolks,
If in your worldview, being made into a cripple, or brain dead vegetable, or KILLED, aren't considered problems by god that we can't handle, then I suppose there is NOTHING we can't handle.
If on the other hand, having a good life with at least fair health is the criteria, then your god obviously has pushed the limits of what we humans can endure.
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy having a good life... you know that kinda always boggles my mind about you atheists. if according to your belief of nature and evolution and stuff, then life is pointless. im a live simply because of chance and will die soon and my purpose is to pass on my genes to the next generation and then the next and so on? but my sons and my grandsons will soon die too. their lives will be pointless too. so basically its just a chain of pointless reproduction. that makes life pointless.
xcode394 9 months ago
@xcode394:"if according to your belief of nature and evolution and stuff, then life is pointless"
And this alone explains to me why you'll forever remain a theists, because you are strong enough emotionally to face the harsh reality we actually live in.
In a nutshell, you don't care about truth, but rather what lies you can convince yourself are truths to live by.....
AtheistToothFairy 9 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy hahaha you say it like its a shame to be a theist and to believe in God. contrary to that, it is quite the opposite. and no no no i certainly do care about the truth. i read about science all the time and i am slowly realizing that john lennox is right about the fact that science actually points to God rather than away from it. i was an atheist once and but no more and i dont regret it for a second.
xcode394 9 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy and also, you never answered my question about the issue of love. if we are simply here to pass on to our genes, then it is more safe to say that women are reproduction machines. and yet we experience love for each other. I love this one girl very much and she is very attractive and yet i dont lust over her. but shouldnt it be my nature to want to simply mate with her? if im simply here to pass on my genes, then love shouldnt exist and i simply want to mate with her.
xcode394 9 months ago
@xcode394 Are you saying you don't want to mate with her? :) Love is oxytocin and norepinephrine. A child has a greater chance of survival if the male sticks around to help protect it. That's the function of love. It also explains why love wears off most of the time (evidence: love based marriages end half the time). Once the child reaches a certain age, the male is no longer needed. See "Why We Love" by Helen Fischer. Any respectful response is most welcome. Disrespectful responses, not so much
twiedenfeld 7 months ago
@twiedenfeld yes i agree i do, but im talking about lust... its the constant feeling of wanting to have sex with her, which is simply despicable. yes i love her and yes i'd have sex with her but according to nature, that should be the ONLY thing that i want to do because i ONLY want to fertilize her egg. " once a child reaches a certain age, the male is no longer needed"??? then how do you explain that im 19 years old and my friend is 22 years old and our dads are still there for us constantly?
xcode394 7 months ago
@twiedenfeld in your explanation, love that we know of between a male and female shouldnt exist? why do marriages exist? why is our marriage based alot ( not all, i know that) on love? if accordng to your atheistic approach of biology, then marriage isnt necessary. because I just need to mate with her. staying with the female to care for the child is not love towards the female but purely biology, nature does not teach us to jump into a burning building to say our girlfriend or wives.
xcode394 7 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy i refuse to believe that we are simply here without any purpose at all and simply to mate. if so, then what is the point of loving a girl? if we are simply trying to find a mate then our purpose of finding a girl is simply to pass on our genes to reproduce and the love doesnt come into the equation at all. there are plenty of animals in nature that simply mates and leaves the female or simply acts like the dominant male in a group and let the female take care of the young.
xcode394 9 months ago
@xcode394 "for you atheists out there, i will convert to atheism if you can show me how life started."
"i refuse to believe that we are simply here without any purpose at all and simply to mate."
If I could, you'd still "refuse to believe" in a universe w/o a god. Why pretend to be interested in truth when you're interested in what suits your interests? And showing the origin of life wouldn't negate a god, so that would be a stupid reason to abandon your faith-- not that I believe you would.
reasonformirrors 9 months ago
@reasonformirrors no i search for the truth and evidences. Yes i believe in the judeo-christian God. thats because I see a reason for it. and no i am not stubborn. if you can show me where life came from, i will be an atheist. after all, i used to be an atheist but I became a christian based on evidences. so, if you can show me where that first cell started, ill convert. even if you say that aliens planted it, well where did those cells that they planted come from? how did they start?
xcode394 9 months ago
@xcode394 When you go on about how pointless life is w/o god and how you refuse to believe in something that you find undesirable, your motives are clear. Have Christians shown you where life came from? I know that they told you a story that seemed to make sense and made you feel special and not pointless, but have they showed you? Have Christians shown you where the first cell, man, plant, etc. came from? Has a Christian shown you God? Again, they told you a story but have they shown you?
reasonformirrors 9 months ago
@xcode394 I'm not a theist, but I know that someone showing you the origin of life is a stupid reason to abandon your faith, since a god could always be behind that explanation. This is why I simply find you to be disingenuous when you say that. And if you are being sincere, let me say that, even though I don't think you have good reasons to have faith, I think it would be rather foolish of you to leave your faith because someone could show you the origin of life.
reasonformirrors 9 months ago
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@xcode394:"i refuse to believe that we are simply here without any purpose at all and simply to mate"
Right there, you said it all when you wrote that you "REFUSE".
i.e. You deny reality at all costs
AtheistToothFairy 9 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy What problems can people not handle versus choose not to handle? For example, if I gave you a hard math problem you could handle, you might CHOOSE not to handle it. So ask yourself if the problems you are thinking about are problems people are just choosing not to handle.
comeonfolks 11 months ago
@comeonfolks:"What problems can people not handle versus choose not to handle"
How about all the babies and children starving to death and/or dying of diseaes in poor countries?
How about all the kids dying in cancer wards in USA hospitals, many of which are Xtians?
How would you suggest they HANDLE this problem......Put their hands together in prayer perhaps?
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy As for the first question, of course charity. But even food and such is sometimes stolen by terrorist organizations and such. These terrorist organizations are people acting on their freewill which God does not interfere with. Kids dying of cancer is sad, but for one thing, research is going on right now, even by Christian institutions such as St. Jude. But, death is natural, though, and who is to say, scientifically, when it is time to pass away?
comeonfolks 11 months ago
@comeonfolks:"even food and such is sometimes stolen by terrorist...Kids dying of cancer is sad, but for one thing, research is going on right now"
Do you not see the obvious in your reply, that you're simply making excuses for your MISSING GOD?
God doesn't tend to the poor or sick, EVER!
In fact, if it wasn't for medical science by HUMANS, more of those kids would be dying compared to if all we did was send up useless prayers to a MIA god, right?
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy God gives people opportunities. The is a story that goes something like this. A man in a flood prayed that God would save him. "Please God Save me," said the man. A cow comes by so close that the man could hop on the cow's back, yet the man did not do it. Eventually, the man drowns in the flood. When he arrives to heaven, he asks why God didn't save him. God says that he sent a cow so that the man could ride the cow to safety.
comeonfolks 11 months ago
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@comeonfolks:"A cow comes by so close that the man could hop on the cow's back, yet the man did not do it. Eventually, the man drowns in the flood"
This is just another version of the same old tired 'saw'.
If god truly cared, then men wouldn't have to fend for themselves in dire times.
Your god is an ass, sorry
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@AtheistToothFairy Anyway, this debate is not going to go anywhere on youtube with only 500 some odd words to post. Just because you choose to ignore all the signs, does not mean there is no God. An if you are an atheist, I assume you do no believe in the Devil, and "Choosing not to believe in the Devil will not protect you from him."
comeonfolks 11 months ago
@comeonfolks:"I assume you do no believe in the Devil"
Of course not, that would be SILLY to believe in such a myth.
If YOU think the devil is real, then why did your god create this evil being, then fail to know it would rebel, then instead of killing his MISTAKE, he sends this creature down to OUR planet to tempt/taunt lowly HUMANS?
Also, why does the devil seem act in a way as to hasten the 'end times' and his own demise?
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
@comeonfolks:"Just because you choose to ignore all the signs, does not mean there is no God"
1. There are no valid signs, anymore than there are from Nostradamous.
2. I'm an apostate and am quite familiar with this VAGUE signs that you guys are so sure mean jesus is coming ANY DAY NOW.
Wake up and smell a little thing we call, REALITY, okay
AtheistToothFairy 11 months ago
I find it fascinating how Lennox's answers are so vague and filled with ambiguity as oppose to the clear cut answers Shermer gives.
Vincentxr6 11 months ago
2:05 John Lennox "I said at the start that this is the hardest problem. Because it's extremely hard to wriggle out of this one by talking fluffy nonsense and treating you all like sheep. So I'll talk shit for a while until you forget the question and try to bag atheism by imposing utopianism on it, which is nonsensical, since atheism is a lack of belief. Praise Dog."
sidewinderxx 11 months ago
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sidewinderxx 11 months ago
The "New atheism": Wth is that?
DaGavinX 1 year ago
Lennox and most other christians pretend to have a direct line to Gods thoughts. Lennox is pure fluff.
SHADOW10621 1 year ago
Lennox calls himself a scientist; what a disgrace.
fidenful 1 year ago 2
I have the answer to the first question of that lady but not the second. Creation "WAS" perfect, In the beginning there was no death disease no virus no illness, that "WAS" the creation in its perfection. God was the being who sustained all life because in him is life & there is no death...its not until man's fall that the life of God departed and death disease & decay entered the world, its the ministry of Jesus that shows that God was trying to being that life back by healings&the ressurection
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 Your answer is still not sufficient. IF God created man, and IF God is omniscient, then God knew that the curiosity with which he endowed his creation would eventually lead his creation to fall. How evil this God!! Secondly, why would this God curse his creation with death and suffering for such a harmless disobedience? And why would God curse all of Adam's progeny for his disobedience? Because he is an evil god or he is a fabrication of man. Which is it?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow Awe man, those are the only choices are huh? hmmmm.....1) The answer is sufficient for the question that was asked, it is the explanation you are changing the topic. 2) how exactly do you know what evil is?
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 1/2 I will say that no, your answer is not sufficient and I did not change the subject. The subject, if I understand correctly is - Why is the world not perfect? Why do we experience suffering and death from "natural" causes. This is one of the biggest problems of theodicy. Your answer-Creation WAS perfect......until man's fall.
My criticism of that is still the same. God knew that he was creating an "imperfect" being or he would not have disobeyed. He knew ahead that Adam would sin.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow So what are you saying....the ability to choose and think freely makes one imperfect? on the contrary to be conscience and have the ability to choose, think & reason freely makes one perfect. Its not his ability to choose that makes him imperfect its what he chooses that does. Adam 'WAS' perfect ,he was given everything thing he needed to succeed, all of creation was subject to him even Satan (He was given Authority). Adam wasn't a Child, he was a Mature Adult.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 No, the ability to choose and think freely does not make one imperfect. Adam only did what was natural and he did "exactly" what God created him to do. He did exactly what God predicted he would do. No he did what God knew he would do. If you saw that your child was about to walk off a cliff and die, wouldn't you stop her? But no, God allowed Adam to step off the cliff and die. If you did that to your child you would be culpable. I don't give God a pass on this one.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow 1) Natural? what was natural to him?.....2) A child jump of a cliff? let me ask you something sir, do YOU know not to jump of a cliff that if you did you would die?
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 You don't have children do you? Or maybe you're not really thinking this through? Of course I know not to jump off a cliff. But people fall off cliffs all the time. Out of curiosity we climb over fences because our curiosity makes us want a better look. But would you limit your child's free will if she did that? Would you put matches or razor blades within her reach and then say "don't touch these, you'll get hurt"? NO! you would not.
Again, why would God knowingly let Adam do this?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow No you don't seem to get it. 'You Know' not to jump of cliff because you know you'll die, I child 'doesn't know' any better. What applies to a child doesn't apply to an adult Its called being mature or growing up or being responsible. 'YOU know' how to use a razor, a child 'doesn't know'. I told you Adam was a Mature Adult not a 4 year year old. 'He Knew'...it was made clear to him. You still gonna hold your child's hand when he's 28 & married?....
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 You still gonna hold your child's hand when he's 28 & married?....
Of course I would physically prevent my 28 year old from harming himself. I doesn't even need to be my own child for me to protect. If I saw a stranger about to intentionally take his own life I would intervene. And guess what? He would be taken into protective custody and have his "free choice" taken away from him.....for awhile.
For you to suggest we do otherwise is to call your own morals into question.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow So...you do favor authority whether its yours or above your own. Did I suggest do to do otherwise? your putting words in my mouth...I was making a point about about Adam something you seem to have ignored.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 I never said I don't believe in laws or authority. Did I? We would have anarchy without them. How did I ignore the conversation about God and Adam?
I'm talking about a responsibility to protect other people, and a responsibility God had to Adam. It's indefensible.
Your arguments are a complete fail.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow I already told you...Adam was given Authority, he was fully capable of making the right decision.
Law19157 1 year ago
@burkerow Its only in your opinion that to you it was a fail. You can't understand something you don't know anything about. Your close minded & self-righteous and sit in Judgment of this God you hate....It's one to believe in God its another to know him.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 Who's close minded and self-righteous?
I don't hate God. How can I had God when I don't believe in him? I do hate this sick perverted concept of God which man has created to use for their own purposes.
It is quite easy for you to say I don't know anything about God or the Bible.
I used to be Christian, born and raise Christian, "born again" at 18 years old. Taught Sunday school in my twenties.
Do I know everything? No
Are you arrogant enough to say you do? I bet you are.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow "Do I know everything? No" - keep that in mind when your passing Judgment on God. "I do hate this sick 'perverted concept' of God which man has created to use for their own purposes" - Your being a hypocrite its you that's created this perverted concept, your the only one that see's God this way...There's no Christian Theist that see's him the way you do.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 its you that's created this perverted concept, your the only one that see's God this way...There's no Christian Theist that see's him the way you do.
I understand that theist don't see God this way. Christians cherry pick the bible.
You're having difficulty defending the fall of Adam. You've not defended the temptation scourge Job and the death of his children for no reason than to prove a point to satan..one of God's angels by the way.
Do you want to try to defend child sacrifice?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow You believed in God you didn't know. You ever heard of Pentecost? the third member of the Godhead Holy Spirit? no...you may have believed but you've never had an encounter with him...people who have been baptized in him Know God...they've seen his power work. He's only accessible if someone steps out in faith and pursues him, that's when he'll come into their lives & they'll know. Wanna see a miracle?...go to a crusade.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 You are like every Christian I have ever known when they are confronted with an apostate.
You accuse them of never really having the "experience" or of never being a real Christian. Typical.
You have no right to deny another person's thoughts or experience. You weren't there.
That is the epitome of arrogance, conceit, pretentiousness and bigotry. Was that a little too redundant?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow Whatever makes you feel better...lol!
Law19157 1 year ago
@burkerow ...no your not, you teach him virtue & train him to do what's right so when he gets older he can make the right decisions on his own....without you being there to baby him. I think I've made my point on responsibility
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 You've made a good point for responsibility, that's true. But what about the responsibility of someone (God) that places a "forbidden tree" within access to someone, knowing full well he would eat it and the consequence would be death. That's even worse than irresponsible. What is the reason for the tree being there if not to test?
Im sorry, this is just a bad story. But what's new, so is the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac. And we can go on and on with bad stories.
burkerow 1 year ago
@Law19157 "no your not,"
I apologize here, I don't want to be too pedantic, but will you please use "You're" not "your" when your saying "you are"
We all make typos and mistakes (yes, even me), but this one is getting annoying. Sorry.
burkerow 1 year ago
@Law19157 Natural curiosity-- why would you even ask me what is natural to Adam? I could grow a tree in the middle of a garden and tell the people who lived there not to eat of the fruit. And guess what? I can predict with almost absolute certainty that someone, sometime would eat it. And I'm not even god. So maybe I should fence it. So maybe if it was deadly poison I should dig it out.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow you suppose it was curiosity? You need to go back and read the text
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 So apparently my cliff analogy doesn't go anywhere with you. You're so intent on defending your god that you don't get it. It doesn't matter whether its a cliff or someone walking into oncoming traffic, whatever, the point is we don't allow people to harm themselves when we have a chance to stop it.
So either God did not predict this and he's not omniscient. Or he wasn't there so he's not omnipresent. Or he knew and couldn't do any thing so he's not omnipotent.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow & what exactly do you call someone who walks out into oncoming traffic or strolling near a cliff?...I have a few words for it - careless & irresponsible or sometimes just plain dumb
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 Yep, people do stupid and irresponsible things all the time that end up harming themselves. That's why we often make laws to protect people from themselves. Seatbelt laws, helmet laws and on and on.
And why would god put this tree there anyway? To test or tempt his beloved creation?
The only thing that redeems this story is just that....it's a story, a myth.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow Oh you favor laws....did you forget the foundation that the laws of this land was founded?....how many times do I have to repeat myself, there were 2 trees, Life & Death he was suppose to pick life. It's your belief that it a myth. Beliefs aren't scientific are they?
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 Beliefs are scientific as long as they've been tested against skepticism. It's belief in something unseen and unobserved that is unscientific.
And you can repeat yourself about the two trees until the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact that to place a tree there for no known purpose except to temp or test with the full knowledge that Adam and Eve would choose death is an illogical story. Why contrive this mess to begin with? It's a myth sir.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow hmmmm...you talk as if these are absolutely wrong?
Law19157 1 year ago
@burkerow "we don't allow people to harm themselves" - Your lecturing me on moral absolutes?
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 I am lecturing you on morals because yours don't seem so well defined. But how could they be, you get them from a 2 to 3 thousand year old book of myths.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow "we don't allow people to harm themselves" - is this an absolute truth? or is it subject to change
Law19157 1 year ago
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@Law19157 "we don't allow people to harm themselves" - is this an absolute truth? or is it subject to change
Nope, it's not absolute.
And what's your point in asking?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow lol! then you've contradicted your self...the criteria you've used to condemn God holds no ground of its own...it means convictions make no sense
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 No, I have not contradicted myself, but I knew you would jump on this comment.
Do we really have time and space for this type of philosophical debate here?
Just one example that comes to my mind. We do allow harm, when it might lead to good. A perfect example is performing surgery to remove a tumor. We place ourself at risk of great harm and injury, but it's with the intent of bringing about a greater good. That's what I meant when I said it's not absolute.
Nice try.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow And...how exactly do you know God wasn't doing the same?
Law19157 1 year ago
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@Law19157 "And...how exactly do you know God wasn't doing the same?"
I'm sorry, big difference. So God punishes Adam with death, when he could have saved him. He later destroys the earth with all the people and animals, save for a few on a boat and you call this the greater good?
He demands child sacrifice. Huh?
I have asked you to explain what good comes from all of this and you can't
I know "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah right.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow And just because God Knows what your gonna do doesn't mean he's going to make choices for you. He made man responsible for his he own actions. Just because you 'CAN' do something doesn't mean you Should...Its called being Responsible. Man was made FREE to choose. Also the tree of Knowledge wasn't the only tree Adam could choose from...there was one right next to it, It was called the tree of Life (Immortality) Life & Death...he was suppose to choose life
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 Again, if your child disobeys you, you correct her. If you do happen to punish her, you make the punishment fit the crime. So all of mankind, all of Adam's progeny is punish for a minor infraction of Adam.
Where do you get your sense of justice? Oh yeah the bible.
And BTW, not to change the subject but it was a talking serpent not satan that tempted Eve. It was a much later Christian theological concept that turned the serpent into Satan.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow Oh...you take the Muslim view on the bible huh...snake not satan?. God himself spoke about who that snake was in Revelation.
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 No I don't take the muslim view of the bible, but I do think they understand it better than most Christians.
You say "God spoke about who the snake was in Revelation". Can you provide the verse reference?
But by siting Revelation, you made my point for me. Satan in general and Satan as the serpent in Genesis is a later Christian construct. The serpent in Genesis is just a talking serpent.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:9 (KJV)
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 I assumed you were referring to this verse. But again the connection between satan and the serpent of Genesis was a late "Christian" development, appearing hundreds of years after whomever wrote Genesis wrote it. Go find a reference to Satan in Genesis for me.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow hmmm....I see why you favor the Islamic translation, it fits your perception of God
Law19157 1 year ago
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@Law19157 "hmmm....I see why you favor the Islamic translation, it fits your perception of God"
You see, you're trying to evade issues here. That is not an Islamic translation anymore than a Christian biblical understanding. My comment does not stand at odds with most biblical scholars.
The fact is I don't favor ANY perception of God, Christian or Islamic.
That's not entirely true. The ONLY concept of God I can't deny, is a deist or an Aristotelean god, but only for philosophical reasons.
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow "Christian Biblical understanding" ? no....its your understanding
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 So let's quote more scripture.
Isaiah 45: 6-7 "I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the LORD do all these things."
Where's Satan here? Looks like the LORD creates and does evil.
You have not yet responded to the Job problem either. Cherry picking?
burkerow 1 year ago
@burkerow the evil is ra' in Hebrew and is not referring to moral evil...but something physical. Satan challenged God, Job was protected. God believed in Job & and the protection was removed after the challenge was excepted. Satan afflicted Job not God and wife was never killed. All said and done Job was REPAID in FULL & then some. The only one cherry picking here is you. You pick out all the things you think is wrong & leave out all the good. Classic politics
Law19157 1 year ago
@Law19157 "Job was REPAID in FULL"
Oh SHUT UP!!
Ok, I made