"the spiritual component is one you make it that you CHOOSE"
So that explains why in the 12 steps, you claim to be weak, beyond all help, pathetic, sinful, bad, full of remorse and beg and beg an imaginary archetype in your psyche to help you?
For atheists spiritual could be a rock. WTF? You know nothing about being an atheist OR A THEIST. Fucking moron.
Happily recovered atheist here (22 years) who goes to AA meetings here. I love Penn & Teller and any organization that can't stand up to a little criticism isn't worth the time.
Hey assholes! At 5:20 you showed the word God three times, I assume to assert that AA is religious. YOU FILMED THE BEGINNING OF THE SAME PRAYER THREE TIMES, AND YOU USED THE DUTCH VERSION FOR THE SECOND "GOD"! You are misleading, misrepresenting ass holes who have no business shitting on AA. When was the last time you got a call from AA asking for donations? When was the last time AA invaded your life? I'm guessing NEVER! So shut up and go to a few meetings and do some real research!
@italypride224 When AA is sponsored by the US Court system, then it is invading our lives. And if AA is NOT a religious organization, than why does EVERY AA meeting end with the Lord's Prayer???
2. SPIRITUALITY IS NOT RELIGION. Honesty is a spiritual principle. When one is in the depths of active addiction it becomes instinct to lie. Lying becomes "part of who someone is," their "self." When someone in recovery practices honesty, they are using a principle outside the scope of how their addicted brain would instinctively react. For step 3, someone can make a decision to turn their life and their will over to the "god of honesty."
1. Nowhere in the steps does it say that we are powerless over our own lives. Step 1 says "we admitted we were powerless over ALCOHOL(or other addictive object), that OUR LIVES HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE."
When I'm honest, I don't hide how I'm really feeling from myself or others. This allows me to deal with problems promptly that I would otherwise ignore and allow to grow into something way bigger than it needed to be. When I'm Open Minded, I'm simply open to feedback from other's who have experienced what I am going through. Open Mindedness allows others to guide me in a direction that won't end in pain.
I'm in AA and have been sober for almost 8 months. YOU DO NOT NEED TO ACCEPT GOD FOR AA TO WORK!!! Step 3 says, "MADE A DECISION to turn our will and our life(thoughts and actions) over to God AS WE(individually) UNDERSTOOD HIM!!! I have come to define God as principles such as Honesty, Open Mindedness, Willingness, Humility along with others. I have found in my experience that when I practice these principles, my day goes better and life is easier.
Maybe I should elaberate. People don't drink to be alcoholic and alcohol for a non alcoholic can have health benifits. The alcoholic drinks beyond these benifits therefore alcohol for alcoholics is a poison. It erodes the body and the mind. I have heard that some people matabolise alcohol differently from others. When I dranked the more alcohol I put in my body the more I wanted. My ability to stop or moderate was non existant that was the point I sought help.
As far as a higher power... I'm a non-theist. But. sometimes when I feel very unhappy and it gets all quiet, and I'm troubled and alone, I do reach out for a higher power, God or Jesus or whatever, and I do get a transcendent feeling but it might just be some different lobe of my brain that kicks in. Enough of this sincerity crap, tho. It will only get ripped.
To tell someone they were cooler when they were on cocaine is a bullshit statement. How do you know the kind of problem cocaine caused in his life. Penn and Teller say they have never touched a drink in there lives how do they know what it means to be an alcholic? Alcholism does exits. There is no moderation for alcholics.
@cynt123able so, I'm not alcoholic because even though I like alcohol, I can moderate myself? I ask cause i've always layered myself as an alcoholic, a very happy one for that matter.
No one speaks for 12 step programs. This whole thing is ridiculous. 12 steps work for me and I'm agnostic. The theraputic value of one addict helping another is why it worked for me.
@Lisarata I've smoked, drank, and done other things that people claim are 'addicting'. Well guess what... I've never became addicted to anything. I smoked in Iraq socially, drink once or twice a year. And that's not to say that I didn't do both more often at one time. And doing it alot, or not at all (Now) did I find nicotine addicting.
@pcgamernum1 That's good. I don't doubt you. Everybody's different. I've tried smoking a few things and never wanted to get into it, but for me, drinking alcohol is a persistent craving. I don't go overboard and I don't cause trouble, but it takes a lot of fighting and some kind of psychological support to stop it, and I will probably always want to.
@Lisarata See this I agree with, but what you said below is different. :P I understand tha tpeople have addictive personalities. Which means that in all honesty you'd probably have found something else if you hadn't found Alcohol.
@Lisarata i think you should watch it again. they did not say that it is just that simple. they just say they think 12 step AA programs are bullshit. (no pun intended)
@Lisarata I left crack on my own, cause it stopped being fun and it turned into a problem, I don't really expect you to believe me, but it is possible, oh and BTW I didn't do it only 10 times before stop doing it ;)
@MrKaozKaoz Well I'm willing to be wrong. I don't even know why I defended 12-steps programs in the first place. I'm not a joiner. I did watch the video again, and I have conclusively decided... whatever works. I think I started drinkin' as medicine for how I was feeling, rather than the drinking giving me the problem.
If the higher power is a tree in your front yard, it sort of fucking matters. I'm not going to turn over my addiction to a tree. It's a fucking tree.
Replacing a chemical addiction for a religious one demeans the personal power of all human beings. Not saying anything against God - saying something against AA.
Addiction is an excuse to continue doing what you know is wrong. I smoke cigarettes, am I addicted? No. I choose everytime I light up, and go months without a smoke cause I don't care to smoke. If AA helps you then great...but there's really one step needed...stop drinking or quit complaining
@strangepowder That woman had no idea what she was talking about and the guy should know better... one of the principles is anonymity. It's in the title. 12 worked for me. I'm Agnostic. I know 2 Atheists personally in the program, they keep coming back.
If you are completely powerless and a higher power is in charge it was not your fault you started drinking - but that means this higher power is also responsible for you starting to drink in the first place.
Penn and Teller: great magicians. Moron philosophers and theologians.
Stick with what you know. Then remain silent like your partner.
Explain how MILLIONS all over the world remain sober and live productive lives if the program didn't work? If you have never had the powerful transformational experience of God's love then it's hard to explain. But if you had it, you never want to lose it. And if that means transparent communications to those we love or have harmed, is that a heavy price?
@joematty5639 What're you talking about? The argument isn't that it doesn't work (although the data they show suggests it's no more effective than standard detox programs), its that AA shouldn't be allowed to be mandated religion.
@joematty5639 They explained precisely how "MILLIONS" remain sober: by choosing not to drink. 4:22.
Consider two populations: people who used to have a serious drinking problem but are now sober, but do not attend AA, and sober AA members. Explain how MILLIONS of non-AA ex-problem drinkers live productive lives. That is your answer.
Be careful not to exaggerate AA membership. Estimates (generous, in my opinion) have it at 2 million. Recall our worldwide pop. is ~7 billion.
I don't have a problem with these guys criticizing AA. However, they go much further than that. They seem to suggest alcoholism simply doesn't exist, that anyone who wills themselves to stop drinking can do so. That is just false. And it's not just AA that says it's false; medical science says it's false.
Large quantities of B vitamins and L-Glutamine combined with cutting sugar out of my diet and getting some exercise did more for me than rehab and AA did.
Another group of compulsory A.A. attendees that Penn didn't mention are teenagers... "Go to A.A. (i.e. "treatment"), or get kicked out of the house." Talk about a recipe for child abuse.
That's why god made liars. So I can lie about god and the other religious BS that I'm forced to partake in, in these meetings or go to jail. I can play any game, as long as I know the rules. In this case there are just 12. Easy. If you can swallow losing your constitutional rights, by a program your forced to participate in.
"Powerless" in AA jargon means simply that when an ALCOHOLIC has a few drinks he/she is powerless to control the outcome. The Big Book says that the alcoholic experiences the phenomenon of "craving". A normal drinker does not.
aa is realy bad becoz they make you beleve in jesus and if you say no they folow you arownd and say bad things to you and they shood be stoped and the polise shood make it ilegal because aa does bad things to peaple
@AnviIOfKrom the real message of jesus would empower people and not tell them to submit to the AA authorities... that being said, if you want to say "fuck jesus" then go for it. just tired of these people misrepresenting something good, just like most christians throughout history.
yes but aa makes you beleve in jesus and if you dont they folow you arownd and hurt you and the polise shood make it ilegal becoz aa hurts peaple who dont beleve in jesus
@AnviIOfKrom i hear you, but you have me on board just by saying they follow people around and hurt them, doesn't matter the reason. and i was more just venting about the whole jesus getting a bad reputation from these guys who seem to miss the whole point. it was nothing against you or what you were saying :)
@amn3h23h2 Sorry wasnt Jesus the one who said that the only way to get to heaven was through him and everyone else will go to hell? Also isn't Jesus the same god as the old testament god? you know the vengeful wrathful bastard?
yeah but you said that aa was good but it is realy bad bcoz it makes you beleve in jesus and if you dont it folows you arownd and makes you beleve in jesus and its realy bad and the polise should make it ilegal so that aa wont do bad things anymor
@AnviIOfKrom Sorry wasnt Jesus the one who said that the only way to get to heaven was through him and everyone else will go to hell? Also isn't Jesus the same god as the old testament god? you know the vengeful wrathful bastard?
yes thats right and aa makes you believe in jesus and if you dont they folow you around and hurt you if you dont and the polise should make them ilegal becoz aa huirts peaple on perpose
yes thats right and aa replies to the wrong guy too when they make you beleve in jesus and the polise dont make aa ilegal and orest aa for folowing peaple arownd
I used to smoke... and I used to smoke a lot... more then a pack a day... I went to a rehab group very much like these AA groups they told me pretty much the same thing as these people did... I only went there once and realised it was stupid... that was about 2 years ago and I don't smoke at all today...
I went to AA, NA, and CA. All work the same, they tell you you're weak. Everyone at the meetings replace one addiction for another. Everyone huddles around outside to chain-smoke, and then they go inside to guzzle coffee. They all constantly complain about their problems. I quit by simply quitting cold turkey and growing as a person. No meetings and no "higher power."
The only problem I have with this episode is that it doesn't really address the fact that for every one person who "abuses" alcohol or is an alcoholic, there are many - and I count myself among this group - who use it responsibly, know our limits, and don't let it interfere with our lives. Our stories never get told; it's only the extremes you hear about. But I admit that would have the potential to drive them off-topic, so I digress.
I wonder if this is where Busey found his fame (?) revival? I remember that reality show "I'm With Busey" that came out a few years ago and ended abruptly because Busey was a complete psychopathic lunatic with a death wish (I think he tried to throw his "co-star" off a cliff or something LOL).
When I'd had enough of AA (to me it was more a prayer group than a support group), I found it hard to break the habit of going to AA meetings. If you're in that position, I suggest that you Google this: YouTube Deprogramming Oneself From Alcoholics Anonymous. It's just one of many videos on the subject that helped me break my meeting habit. I'm currently at 925 consecutive days sober, and far happier than I was during my year in AA.
While AA members are busy "working the steps" to supposedly fix their wrongdoings, ppl outside of AA are doing that on a minute to minute basis. Working the steps can sometimes take the aa member years and even then their so called amends are often never made under the loopholes provided (when it harms self or others). But I guess that is the way it goes in a masonic created cult. Fake it until you make it.
anyone who speaks ill of a 12 step program stand in ivory towers of judgment, opinion, theory and whatever other inflated form they come from. those of us who are a member and have chosen this path for our journey back to health would be the ones who know the INSIDE scoop. also- G.(good)O.(orderly)D.(direction) doesn't have to be a deity. A higher power is anything that brings a reality based message: nature, a movie, a group of people, song, poet, best friend, a mother, a sister, a good book...
i sat on the bathroom floor of a hotel with my methadone in my system, crack dealer on the phone doing business, and the crack being broken down with lemon juice in my spoon. my needle was clogged and i sat there in a state of OBSESSION and COMPULSION for 5 hours straight in an attempt to get 1 fix in my system. CHOICE wasn't involved. i sat their scared as i began to step aside from myself and recognize that i had lost control and couldn't stop. i felt like i could've cried i was so scared.
lol, choosing 2 believe in god causes humility, (loud n proud people,hate that...)and an atheist is merely sum1 that is so full of 'SELF' that they are blocked off from the pleasure of re-connecting to the universe...poor c8nts...! oh. and grave yards are full of proud alcoholics, that have ended up thr prematurely x.
plus, powerless means what happens when we drink. I do have a choice not to drink. When I do drink, I can not control how much I drink. I crave more and more and will chase that into death. It's hard not to think I can find a way to drink like a normal person, so I try lots of ways to do that. It gets worse. Once you are physically addicted to alcohol, try stopping. It is horrible. Shakes, sweats, pain. You can die from the detox.
Heres how it works. 1st 3 steps deal with a relationship we have with a higher power. We come in with addiction. We see that as a power greater than ourselves. We then develop a new relationship with a new, positive higher power. that can be ANYTHING! steps 4-7 we develop a relationship with ourselves. Step 8 &9 we develop better relationships with others. last 3 steps, we practice all above daily. It is not a debate on if there is a god, its a way to save our lives and live better.
@andreasheinz I wonder in what sense you mean that. I have a feeling you are trying to make fun. If you are asking abut the idea that stages of child development determine our behavior and personality, doesnt matter. I know I am an alcoholic. I know if I continue to drink, I will die. I know AA has helped me to live sober and thats the real trick. It's not so much that I stopped drinking, it's that I had to learn to live sober. If you mean that each person has valuse, that happens in all steps.
@lukatme2 0 - 90/90 1 - diagnosis and development theories 2 - the 24 h plan w/ stop 1st drink or "morning meditation" (bb pg 86/87). That each person has valuse, that happens here, nowhere else. 3 - serenity prayer 6 - HALT, depression, anxiety, stress 10 - emmotional stop-signs 11 - specific theory. TA, diet, stress-coping, sunday mass or even Ruth Meyer TV shows. 13 / 14 mtgs 15 / 16 story 17 (or 18 ?) training and sharing 19 / 20 evaluation / individuation, IE some of the stuff internalized
@lukatme2 Thxm the "9.8" in 11.2+9.8=21 means 9 > 8 in the Jellinek scheme. IE the alibi sytem "causes" the chronic phase, not the other way round. But in the end many aa-cultist will live w/ it.
I love the interchange between the angry resentful woman and the calm, centered AA. Although we have no opinion on outside issues, the aggregate of recovery has clearly been found within AA and not without. Simple logic should dictate which path to choose.
Who the fuck are you- AA does not care what that ass hole thinks of AA...
How many doctors tell their patients to loose weight and go to a gym- do you Blame the gym for the person staying fat and not quitting smoking?? Your an ass buddy- you don't know or understand what the philosophy of AA is capable of when taught properly - unfortunately your entertaining to
Goofs like your self and can cause more harm thank good to followers of your trailer-park intellect ... So sad you don't know how ha
let me see, "Treatment?", it was never designed as a treatment. It was disign as a fellowship and it should have stayed that way. Look at the 6 tradition will never lend the AA name to any related facility (what?, am I the only one that knows how to read?) how about the 8? it will never be PROFESSIONAL, wow, have you ever been to treatment and never seen any MSW and PhD talking this shit arround. How about the 11 it s program of attration not promotion, again what?force me into a meeting no choi
Fallacy 1: You have to have God to be in AA. Good Orderly Direction is used by atheists in AA. Fallacy 2: 100% abstinence or failure; Alcholics who drank daily but stop for months with a relapse are not failures. They would have been institutionalized before 1939. Fallacy 3: BS he does not support the 5% independent study. (Non AA) # came right out of his ass. Of the 95% who relapsed. What was the rate of usage? Sadly as usual the slant is wrong. This show could have been so much better.
I liked how a guy in a metting called his girlfriend his higher power . Same metting a man called strero equiment his higher power . Its hard to bounce back .
Alcoholism and addiction are extremely complex conditions. That being so, coupled with their deadliness and sheer destruction on the afflicted and those he comes into contact with, leaves me unable to give Pen & Teller any merit at all on the subject.
Simple, comedic statements and clever wordings has done nothing to solve the alcoholism and addiction problem and cannot even begin to explain it.
@LokiFreign I dont think the idea is even that, I think its just idiotic to say that 12 step programs are Bullshit. They may not work for some, but have worked for others....... nothing more and nothing less.
@andreasheinz You're right.I was just fooling around.Penn and Teller obviously have no idea about addiction.This video would be more balanced if they took their cameras to the streets and filmed the violence caused by drinking.
If it works for people and it saves lives why would they want to debunk it.There's a reason why there are so many 12 Step Programs,it works!!!!Looks like Penn & Teller need some new writers if this is all they got .
AA is bullshit for the weak. I'm so much happier after I stopped going to meetings. I subscribe to the Neil Peart philosophy: "I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose FREE WILL!" Have a little confidence and faith in YOURSELVES and just do it. There is plenty of literature and books that gives alternative methods for staying sober. Start by cutting out sweets and caffeine!! Ever been to an AA meeting without those two things that perpetuate addictive behavior???
They don't understand alcoholism. Funny these guys want debunk AA and root around finding people with stories and rhetoric to support their "just quit" use your willpower simple minded idea. The very essence of alcoholism is the sufferers inability to use their own thinking to abstain (not cure). Countless alcoholics try to quit with the P&T 1 step program but can't. Why? A real alcoholic is powerless to fight the disease themselves. Many try over and over and cannot. That is where AA begins.
@linuxbass What you're talking about is addiction.If alcoholism was a disease cured by the 12 steps,then how do the 12 steps apply to the families of alcoholics-Al anon?And there is Al Alateen,a 12 step program for those who just happened to be born into a family which has a parent who got addicted to alcohol.Wilson rejected the term 'disease'.,his view is that it is a 'spiritual malady'.The 12 steps are faith healing,I wasted 6 years in that cult,thinking I had a 'disease'.
No idea what crap you're talking about with the Buddhist. He can fight it if he was religious or not. Christian or not. You know you don't need god for Buddhism, right?
People are sent to AA by a court. It's a faith based body and pretty much christian. AA working, higher power, 12 step models are all irrelevant. You missed the whole point of the video. The issue is the government has no business sending people to these things. You don't see that?
@andreasheinz Have you seen the other shows? The series is about BULLSHIT. The whole point of the show is about the point in my last comment. Why would the other issues matter at all?
Last time. The show is talking about the government, via the courts, sending people to a mandatory faith based recovery program. It's that simple. The main people that object are non Christians/non religious people. Christian or not, it's a violation. Irrelevant if AA works or that shit you said about hiding.
Same question again. What makes you think their doing that? Why are they doing that? What does it have to do with the subject anyway? If you're going by the video then I don't think you understood it.
Even if you "had" to pray to a rock or toaster, at least it's real lol. So you say a court ruled religious people have to pray to both toasters and rocks? At the same time?
@mcallen83 !?! I dont get that "question": P&T, aa, courts.
The subjects of the video are, FE:
- 12 step US standard model
- disease / powerless concept
- higher power / "spiritual solution"
- aa works. THIS is the central argument BTW
- other options
A court ruled, that an individual claiming to be very religious, specific Buddhist, was violated in his rights at aa. Objective free to pray to whatever powers, he's still subjective pissed. Thats the core of 1st amendment.
When you get the balls to answer a question, let me know. Till then, keep deleting your posts. Crushing your ridiculous logic was kind of fun. Also, thank you for deleting your posts. Doing us all a favor. Sorry to the parents, if only they could delete you so easily. oh well. Keep up the random insults, a lot easier than answering questions.
"yet you claim to be a person of science??" - where did this come from? You just type out any random thoughts don't you? No connect to the last, just comes out like the crap out of your ass.
"the spiritual component is one you make it that you CHOOSE"
So that explains why in the 12 steps, you claim to be weak, beyond all help, pathetic, sinful, bad, full of remorse and beg and beg an imaginary archetype in your psyche to help you?
For atheists spiritual could be a rock. WTF? You know nothing about being an atheist OR A THEIST. Fucking moron.
cyber151 1 day ago
Happily recovered atheist here (22 years) who goes to AA meetings here. I love Penn & Teller and any organization that can't stand up to a little criticism isn't worth the time.
rattlecan666 2 days ago
Just stop fuckin' eatin' so much! XD
114Freesoul 1 week ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
"FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS",
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS DOESN´T.
IGOROZKARSKY 1 week ago
How the hell can a higher power be a rock or a tree? Bullshit.
psx1337 1 week ago
he recovered from booze and weed....she recovered from booze and coke. just a guess. :)
sethmusic 2 weeks ago
Hey assholes! At 5:20 you showed the word God three times, I assume to assert that AA is religious. YOU FILMED THE BEGINNING OF THE SAME PRAYER THREE TIMES, AND YOU USED THE DUTCH VERSION FOR THE SECOND "GOD"! You are misleading, misrepresenting ass holes who have no business shitting on AA. When was the last time you got a call from AA asking for donations? When was the last time AA invaded your life? I'm guessing NEVER! So shut up and go to a few meetings and do some real research!
italypride224 3 weeks ago
@italypride224 When AA is sponsored by the US Court system, then it is invading our lives. And if AA is NOT a religious organization, than why does EVERY AA meeting end with the Lord's Prayer???
loveofphysics 1 week ago
2. SPIRITUALITY IS NOT RELIGION. Honesty is a spiritual principle. When one is in the depths of active addiction it becomes instinct to lie. Lying becomes "part of who someone is," their "self." When someone in recovery practices honesty, they are using a principle outside the scope of how their addicted brain would instinctively react. For step 3, someone can make a decision to turn their life and their will over to the "god of honesty."
italypride224 3 weeks ago
@italypride224 So, as I am not even remotely spiritual, does that make me dishonest?
Blargaha 4 days ago
1. Nowhere in the steps does it say that we are powerless over our own lives. Step 1 says "we admitted we were powerless over ALCOHOL(or other addictive object), that OUR LIVES HAD BECOME UNMANAGEABLE."
italypride224 3 weeks ago
When I'm honest, I don't hide how I'm really feeling from myself or others. This allows me to deal with problems promptly that I would otherwise ignore and allow to grow into something way bigger than it needed to be. When I'm Open Minded, I'm simply open to feedback from other's who have experienced what I am going through. Open Mindedness allows others to guide me in a direction that won't end in pain.
italypride224 3 weeks ago
I'm in AA and have been sober for almost 8 months. YOU DO NOT NEED TO ACCEPT GOD FOR AA TO WORK!!! Step 3 says, "MADE A DECISION to turn our will and our life(thoughts and actions) over to God AS WE(individually) UNDERSTOOD HIM!!! I have come to define God as principles such as Honesty, Open Mindedness, Willingness, Humility along with others. I have found in my experience that when I practice these principles, my day goes better and life is easier.
italypride224 3 weeks ago
OMG this is great. Proof that AA is complete bullshit.
kevinfirstnamefinn 3 weeks ago
Maybe I should elaberate. People don't drink to be alcoholic and alcohol for a non alcoholic can have health benifits. The alcoholic drinks beyond these benifits therefore alcohol for alcoholics is a poison. It erodes the body and the mind. I have heard that some people matabolise alcohol differently from others. When I dranked the more alcohol I put in my body the more I wanted. My ability to stop or moderate was non existant that was the point I sought help.
cynt123able 1 month ago
As far as a higher power... I'm a non-theist. But. sometimes when I feel very unhappy and it gets all quiet, and I'm troubled and alone, I do reach out for a higher power, God or Jesus or whatever, and I do get a transcendent feeling but it might just be some different lobe of my brain that kicks in. Enough of this sincerity crap, tho. It will only get ripped.
Lisarata 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
*KINDLE OWNERS* in recovery, check out my eBook!! :) /watch?v=wocD6tEXIeo
OdomtologyBooks 1 month ago
To tell someone they were cooler when they were on cocaine is a bullshit statement. How do you know the kind of problem cocaine caused in his life. Penn and Teller say they have never touched a drink in there lives how do they know what it means to be an alcholic? Alcholism does exits. There is no moderation for alcholics.
cynt123able 1 month ago
@cynt123able so, I'm not alcoholic because even though I like alcohol, I can moderate myself? I ask cause i've always layered myself as an alcoholic, a very happy one for that matter.
MrKaozKaoz 1 month ago
No one speaks for 12 step programs. This whole thing is ridiculous. 12 steps work for me and I'm agnostic. The theraputic value of one addict helping another is why it worked for me.
jo0390174 1 month ago
Go back to the future Gary, you were cooler when you were on cocaine.
absentian1 2 months ago
Okay, now. To prove it, I want Penn and Teller to get high on crack ten times, and then stop. Then I'll know they have proved what they say.
Lisarata 3 months ago
@Lisarata I've smoked, drank, and done other things that people claim are 'addicting'. Well guess what... I've never became addicted to anything. I smoked in Iraq socially, drink once or twice a year. And that's not to say that I didn't do both more often at one time. And doing it alot, or not at all (Now) did I find nicotine addicting.
pcgamernum1 2 months ago
@pcgamernum1 That's good. I don't doubt you. Everybody's different. I've tried smoking a few things and never wanted to get into it, but for me, drinking alcohol is a persistent craving. I don't go overboard and I don't cause trouble, but it takes a lot of fighting and some kind of psychological support to stop it, and I will probably always want to.
Lisarata 2 months ago
@Lisarata See this I agree with, but what you said below is different. :P I understand tha tpeople have addictive personalities. Which means that in all honesty you'd probably have found something else if you hadn't found Alcohol.
pcgamernum1 2 months ago
@pcgamernum1 Yeh that makes sense. So I need a 12 steps group for never feeling quite right about anything! Ego anonymous.
Lisarata 2 months ago
@pcgamernum1 also I'm just trying to stop drinking when I'm alone. :)
Lisarata 2 months ago
@Lisarata i think you should watch it again. they did not say that it is just that simple. they just say they think 12 step AA programs are bullshit. (no pun intended)
MrRapistman 2 months ago
@MrRapistman Okay I'll watch it again :)
Lisarata 2 months ago
@Lisarata I left crack on my own, cause it stopped being fun and it turned into a problem, I don't really expect you to believe me, but it is possible, oh and BTW I didn't do it only 10 times before stop doing it ;)
MrKaozKaoz 1 month ago
@MrKaozKaoz Well I'm willing to be wrong. I don't even know why I defended 12-steps programs in the first place. I'm not a joiner. I did watch the video again, and I have conclusively decided... whatever works. I think I started drinkin' as medicine for how I was feeling, rather than the drinking giving me the problem.
Lisarata 1 month ago
my higher powerS are my ASSHAIRS. not "god"
nootrak123 3 months ago
boozing and drugging is not a disease, it's a form of stoopidness.
but, the aclu is a bunch of scumbags.
monk22yrs 3 months ago
@7:05
I HAVE NEVER EVER SEEN ANY PROOF FOR
THIS "BRAIN-BASED-DISEASE" IDEA, TALK YEA,
BUT NEVER EVER ANY PROOF. & I´VE BEEN IN
AA FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS.
INDYOSKARS 4 months ago
If the higher power is a tree in your front yard, it sort of fucking matters. I'm not going to turn over my addiction to a tree. It's a fucking tree.
Replacing a chemical addiction for a religious one demeans the personal power of all human beings. Not saying anything against God - saying something against AA.
EmilyDNelson 4 months ago 10
@EmilyDNelson No one actually does that.
jo0390174 1 month ago
AA is a faith healing cult.
It is nonsense, and it doesn't work.
SMARTRecovery is based on scientific research, not imaginary friends.
SMART worked for me. It's been three years since my last drink.
ndrthrdr1 4 months ago
@ndrthrdr1 Yawn...heard it all before!
avabethan 3 months ago
@3:05
AA CLASHES WITH THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION;
HOW DOES THAT 1st COMMANDMENT GO AGAIN:
"I am the Lord thy God,
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing..... "
IGOROZKARSKY 4 months ago
@0:00
My friend Frankie has saved millions upon millions of lives,
so has my friend Johnny, he has saved millions upon millions
of lives....., millions upon millions !
IGOROZKARSKY 4 months ago
I brought up some old clips from Soul Train and I had a spiritual awakening. i am convinced that Don Cornelius is GOD!
rjplamf61 4 months ago
Addiction is an excuse to continue doing what you know is wrong. I smoke cigarettes, am I addicted? No. I choose everytime I light up, and go months without a smoke cause I don't care to smoke. If AA helps you then great...but there's really one step needed...stop drinking or quit complaining
rdnkhotshot 5 months ago
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@rdnkhotshot
youre dumb as fuck. you know nothing about addiction.
pdz89123 4 months ago
Wow, the guy in recovery had a stellar argument. That woman, was way too smart for him.
strangepowder 5 months ago
@strangepowder That woman had no idea what she was talking about and the guy should know better... one of the principles is anonymity. It's in the title. 12 worked for me. I'm Agnostic. I know 2 Atheists personally in the program, they keep coming back.
jo0390174 1 month ago
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Joe72521 5 months ago
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Joe72521 5 months ago
If you are completely powerless and a higher power is in charge it was not your fault you started drinking - but that means this higher power is also responsible for you starting to drink in the first place.
And you shall turn over your life to that dick?
mehja1 5 months ago
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HEY STEVE SUCK MY COCK!!!
KiraC91 5 months ago
Whats up with all this hate on AA. If you want what we got your welcome, if you don't thats your choice,
Deep7322 5 months ago
Penn and Teller: great magicians. Moron philosophers and theologians.
Stick with what you know. Then remain silent like your partner.
Explain how MILLIONS all over the world remain sober and live productive lives if the program didn't work? If you have never had the powerful transformational experience of God's love then it's hard to explain. But if you had it, you never want to lose it. And if that means transparent communications to those we love or have harmed, is that a heavy price?
joematty5639 5 months ago
@joematty5639 What're you talking about? The argument isn't that it doesn't work (although the data they show suggests it's no more effective than standard detox programs), its that AA shouldn't be allowed to be mandated religion.
Keinlicht 5 months ago
@joematty5639 They explained precisely how "MILLIONS" remain sober: by choosing not to drink. 4:22.
Consider two populations: people who used to have a serious drinking problem but are now sober, but do not attend AA, and sober AA members. Explain how MILLIONS of non-AA ex-problem drinkers live productive lives. That is your answer.
Be careful not to exaggerate AA membership. Estimates (generous, in my opinion) have it at 2 million. Recall our worldwide pop. is ~7 billion.
guywithaheadache 3 months ago
@guywithaheadache
You don't know what you are talking about. 2 million NOW, around since 1935.
If you have never had a spiritual transformation, you don't know what you are talking about.
But rather than be an intelligent seeker, you choose to mock, the truest sign of an intellectual midget.
joematty5639 3 months ago
I don't have a problem with these guys criticizing AA. However, they go much further than that. They seem to suggest alcoholism simply doesn't exist, that anyone who wills themselves to stop drinking can do so. That is just false. And it's not just AA that says it's false; medical science says it's false.
fileboy2002 6 months ago
AA is a cult designed for sin and redemption. It doesn't help anyone!
somethingdiffereable 6 months ago
"We hate this Michael Moore shit" -- love it! The quote, not MM.
ghostofandy 6 months ago in playlist Bullshit!
Large quantities of B vitamins and L-Glutamine combined with cutting sugar out of my diet and getting some exercise did more for me than rehab and AA did.
TheSinisterKitty 6 months ago
Another group of compulsory A.A. attendees that Penn didn't mention are teenagers... "Go to A.A. (i.e. "treatment"), or get kicked out of the house." Talk about a recipe for child abuse.
swillwilson 6 months ago
Thats kinda demeaning to tell someone that there will is weak.
Neromanser 6 months ago
Funny, in high school our teachers brought in some AA people, despite the fact that this violates church-state separation.
patrickthesaint 6 months ago
That's why god made liars. So I can lie about god and the other religious BS that I'm forced to partake in, in these meetings or go to jail. I can play any game, as long as I know the rules. In this case there are just 12. Easy. If you can swallow losing your constitutional rights, by a program your forced to participate in.
screechymon 6 months ago
"Powerless" in AA jargon means simply that when an ALCOHOLIC has a few drinks he/she is powerless to control the outcome. The Big Book says that the alcoholic experiences the phenomenon of "craving". A normal drinker does not.
quickcap 7 months ago
I wanna go to AA and say that Satan's my higher power and see their response.
fetusjuice 7 months ago
@fetusjuice They would laugh and then at the meeting you would get a hug and a bunch of phone numbers.
jo0390174 1 month ago
My higher power would be Cobra Commander.
ZimMan2 7 months ago
wow, is there really 12 steps program for getting thinner?, thats fucked up 'merica...
THEJkOverlord 7 months ago
Whatever helps a person....I personally think this video is shit.
onsenatsui 7 months ago
@onsenatsui Its trading in one drug for another its not helping, its disgusting.
ronocko 7 months ago in playlist Penn and Teller's Bullshit
aa is realy bad becoz they make you beleve in jesus and if you say no they folow you arownd and say bad things to you and they shood be stoped and the polise shood make it ilegal because aa does bad things to peaple
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
@AnviIOfKrom the real message of jesus would empower people and not tell them to submit to the AA authorities... that being said, if you want to say "fuck jesus" then go for it. just tired of these people misrepresenting something good, just like most christians throughout history.
amn3h23h2 7 months ago
@amn3h23h2
yes but aa makes you beleve in jesus and if you dont they folow you arownd and hurt you and the polise shood make it ilegal becoz aa hurts peaple who dont beleve in jesus
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
@AnviIOfKrom i hear you, but you have me on board just by saying they follow people around and hurt them, doesn't matter the reason. and i was more just venting about the whole jesus getting a bad reputation from these guys who seem to miss the whole point. it was nothing against you or what you were saying :)
amn3h23h2 7 months ago
@amn3h23h2
yes and everyone should tell on aa to the polise becoz aa is bad and trys to hurt peaple all the time
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
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@amn3h23h2 Sorry wasnt Jesus the one who said that the only way to get to heaven was through him and everyone else will go to hell? Also isn't Jesus the same god as the old testament god? you know the vengeful wrathful bastard?
ronocko 7 months ago
@AnviIOfKrom Uhh, no they don't.
jo0390174 1 month ago
@amn3h23h2 there are no AA authorities.
jo0390174 1 month ago
@AnviIOfKrom Obvious troll is obvious.
AlicexMarilyn 7 months ago
@AlicexMarilyn
yeah but you said that aa was good but it is realy bad bcoz it makes you beleve in jesus and if you dont it folows you arownd and makes you beleve in jesus and its realy bad and the polise should make it ilegal so that aa wont do bad things anymor
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
@AnviIOfKrom Sorry wasnt Jesus the one who said that the only way to get to heaven was through him and everyone else will go to hell? Also isn't Jesus the same god as the old testament god? you know the vengeful wrathful bastard?
ronocko 7 months ago in playlist Penn and Teller's Bullshit
@ronocko
yes thats right and aa makes you believe in jesus and if you dont they folow you around and hurt you if you dont and the polise should make them ilegal becoz aa huirts peaple on perpose
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
@AnviIOfKrom I replied to the wrong guy sorry I meant to reply to amn3h23h2 saying Jesus doesn't deserve a bad rep.
ronocko 7 months ago
@ronocko
yes thats right and aa replies to the wrong guy too when they make you beleve in jesus and the polise dont make aa ilegal and orest aa for folowing peaple arownd
AnviIOfKrom 7 months ago
I used to smoke... and I used to smoke a lot... more then a pack a day... I went to a rehab group very much like these AA groups they told me pretty much the same thing as these people did... I only went there once and realised it was stupid... that was about 2 years ago and I don't smoke at all today...
MrSCPhoenix 7 months ago
I went to AA, NA, and CA. All work the same, they tell you you're weak. Everyone at the meetings replace one addiction for another. Everyone huddles around outside to chain-smoke, and then they go inside to guzzle coffee. They all constantly complain about their problems. I quit by simply quitting cold turkey and growing as a person. No meetings and no "higher power."
KuatoFilms 7 months ago
The only problem I have with this episode is that it doesn't really address the fact that for every one person who "abuses" alcohol or is an alcoholic, there are many - and I count myself among this group - who use it responsibly, know our limits, and don't let it interfere with our lives. Our stories never get told; it's only the extremes you hear about. But I admit that would have the potential to drive them off-topic, so I digress.
cyanmanta 8 months ago
whatever works...AA worked for me
c2gunn 8 months ago
I wonder if this is where Busey found his fame (?) revival? I remember that reality show "I'm With Busey" that came out a few years ago and ended abruptly because Busey was a complete psychopathic lunatic with a death wish (I think he tried to throw his "co-star" off a cliff or something LOL).
jerico641 8 months ago
@jerico641 At least Busey was able to turn his handicap into a successful film career. You're about as useless as a concrete parachute.
RadarGuidedVermin 8 months ago
rock? what about metal? :)
Blackerer 8 months ago in playlist Penn and Teller's Bullshit
Penn's speech starting at 4:16 could be the entire BS episode.
Wesleyfromindy2 8 months ago
@Wesleyfromindy2 OK
andreasheinz 8 months ago
12steps explains why so many ppl fail recovering...
logoth80 8 months ago
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When I'd had enough of AA (to me it was more a prayer group than a support group), I found it hard to break the habit of going to AA meetings. If you're in that position, I suggest that you Google this: YouTube Deprogramming Oneself From Alcoholics Anonymous. It's just one of many videos on the subject that helped me break my meeting habit. I'm currently at 925 consecutive days sober, and far happier than I was during my year in AA.
ndrthrdr1 8 months ago
he looks like a worm. by the way gary is a fuckin dick head. he even looks drunk. shit rich prick!!!
euroman32589 9 months ago
my higher power is my dick. every time i get the urge to drink i whip out my higher power and ask the big fella for help. works for me!
euroman32589 9 months ago 4
@euroman32589 Sounds like something george carlin would say lol
Tasekcrwser 4 months ago
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While AA members are busy "working the steps" to supposedly fix their wrongdoings, ppl outside of AA are doing that on a minute to minute basis. Working the steps can sometimes take the aa member years and even then their so called amends are often never made under the loopholes provided (when it harms self or others). But I guess that is the way it goes in a masonic created cult. Fake it until you make it.
beautifulmind546 9 months ago
90 pounds heavier than that? He doesn't look like he'd be that fat...
IoEstasCedonta 9 months ago in playlist AA Bullshit
anyone who speaks ill of a 12 step program stand in ivory towers of judgment, opinion, theory and whatever other inflated form they come from. those of us who are a member and have chosen this path for our journey back to health would be the ones who know the INSIDE scoop. also- G.(good)O.(orderly)D.(direction) doesn't have to be a deity. A higher power is anything that brings a reality based message: nature, a movie, a group of people, song, poet, best friend, a mother, a sister, a good book...
emasfem 9 months ago
i sat on the bathroom floor of a hotel with my methadone in my system, crack dealer on the phone doing business, and the crack being broken down with lemon juice in my spoon. my needle was clogged and i sat there in a state of OBSESSION and COMPULSION for 5 hours straight in an attempt to get 1 fix in my system. CHOICE wasn't involved. i sat their scared as i began to step aside from myself and recognize that i had lost control and couldn't stop. i felt like i could've cried i was so scared.
emasfem 9 months ago
General anti-alcoholic inforamation is 6/7
General pro-normal information is 11
Individual councelling/ training is 17/18
Early sponsor is the group in 0 , councelling must be pro-standard.
Sorry to say, sponsors are cancelled.
andreasheinz 9 months ago
lol, choosing 2 believe in god causes humility, (loud n proud people,hate that...)and an atheist is merely sum1 that is so full of 'SELF' that they are blocked off from the pleasure of re-connecting to the universe...poor c8nts...! oh. and grave yards are full of proud alcoholics, that have ended up thr prematurely x.
TheEYECON1 9 months ago
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andreasheinz 9 months ago
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TheEYECON1 9 months ago
plus, powerless means what happens when we drink. I do have a choice not to drink. When I do drink, I can not control how much I drink. I crave more and more and will chase that into death. It's hard not to think I can find a way to drink like a normal person, so I try lots of ways to do that. It gets worse. Once you are physically addicted to alcohol, try stopping. It is horrible. Shakes, sweats, pain. You can die from the detox.
lukatme2 9 months ago
Heres how it works. 1st 3 steps deal with a relationship we have with a higher power. We come in with addiction. We see that as a power greater than ourselves. We then develop a new relationship with a new, positive higher power. that can be ANYTHING! steps 4-7 we develop a relationship with ourselves. Step 8 &9 we develop better relationships with others. last 3 steps, we practice all above daily. It is not a debate on if there is a god, its a way to save our lives and live better.
lukatme2 9 months ago
@lukatme2 what step is transaction analysis ?
andreasheinz 9 months ago
@andreasheinz I wonder in what sense you mean that. I have a feeling you are trying to make fun. If you are asking abut the idea that stages of child development determine our behavior and personality, doesnt matter. I know I am an alcoholic. I know if I continue to drink, I will die. I know AA has helped me to live sober and thats the real trick. It's not so much that I stopped drinking, it's that I had to learn to live sober. If you mean that each person has valuse, that happens in all steps.
lukatme2 9 months ago
andreasheinz 9 months ago
@andreasheinz lol. Your funny. And smart too.
Thanks for the break down
Peace and cheerios!
lukatme2 9 months ago
@lukatme2 Thxm the "9.8" in 11.2+9.8=21 means 9 > 8 in the Jellinek scheme. IE the alibi sytem "causes" the chronic phase, not the other way round. But in the end many aa-cultist will live w/ it.
andreasheinz 9 months ago
"angry resentful woman",????
nag73 9 months ago
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@trzill "the aggregate of recovery has clearly been found within AA and not without."
Where did you find that data?
shandcunt 10 months ago
I love the interchange between the angry resentful woman and the calm, centered AA. Although we have no opinion on outside issues, the aggregate of recovery has clearly been found within AA and not without. Simple logic should dictate which path to choose.
trzill 10 months ago
@trzill Neither one
andreasheinz 10 months ago
So sad you don't know how harmful you are... Contempt prior to investigation will keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
I have been to those court ordered meetings to help - most of this people don't want to look at them selves, nor are they committed to change-
There are real meetings of AA where people
Learn how to live and teach the twelve steps.
Family's are restored , lives are healed, life takes on a new meaning - why would you try and talk down about AA??? It teaches a spiritual ph
donlapcam 10 months ago
Who the fuck are you- AA does not care what that ass hole thinks of AA...
How many doctors tell their patients to loose weight and go to a gym- do you Blame the gym for the person staying fat and not quitting smoking?? Your an ass buddy- you don't know or understand what the philosophy of AA is capable of when taught properly - unfortunately your entertaining to
Goofs like your self and can cause more harm thank good to followers of your trailer-park intellect ... So sad you don't know how ha
donlapcam 10 months ago
Its not cognitive, its analitical (psycho-dynamic) as a function of intace (33 sd/ week nothing - 133 sd/ week allways, std males)
Its not so much of a simple solution, but sure its a very simple problem
andreasheinz 10 months ago
@andreasheinz For someone who seems to know a lot, you sure are stupid.
jo0390174 1 month ago
This is stupid, and he is an arrogant asshat.
Polaris382 10 months ago
hmm meditation is cool but what does an atheist do?
MochizMuM 10 months ago
It says, it never will be better - no hope, but you'll have to "work it" 100% of the time, else you'll die.
andreasheinz 10 months ago
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andreasheinz 10 months ago
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xXfrownyguyXx 10 months ago
let me see, "Treatment?", it was never designed as a treatment. It was disign as a fellowship and it should have stayed that way. Look at the 6 tradition will never lend the AA name to any related facility (what?, am I the only one that knows how to read?) how about the 8? it will never be PROFESSIONAL, wow, have you ever been to treatment and never seen any MSW and PhD talking this shit arround. How about the 11 it s program of attration not promotion, again what?force me into a meeting no choi
Picaro1 10 months ago
Fallacy 1: You have to have God to be in AA. Good Orderly Direction is used by atheists in AA. Fallacy 2: 100% abstinence or failure; Alcholics who drank daily but stop for months with a relapse are not failures. They would have been institutionalized before 1939. Fallacy 3: BS he does not support the 5% independent study. (Non AA) # came right out of his ass. Of the 95% who relapsed. What was the rate of usage? Sadly as usual the slant is wrong. This show could have been so much better.
arrdvarks1 10 months ago
@arrdvarks1 now i see why this is spam...
MochizMuM 10 months ago
How did Penn stop drinking or smoking reefer? Or has he? How much are Penn and Teller getting paid for this video?
rickbangkok 10 months ago
@rickbangkok lol what?
MochizMuM 10 months ago
@ 4:00 ff is one of the few sane ideas in this debate. My "problem" is: Dear Doc, this ain't behaviors, this is an analytical concept.
andreasheinz 10 months ago
I liked how a guy in a metting called his girlfriend his higher power . Same metting a man called strero equiment his higher power . Its hard to bounce back .
jeffrey19621 10 months ago
Thanks for mentioning Dr Bob
jeffrey19621 10 months ago
Alcoholism and addiction are extremely complex conditions. That being so, coupled with their deadliness and sheer destruction on the afflicted and those he comes into contact with, leaves me unable to give Pen & Teller any merit at all on the subject.
Simple, comedic statements and clever wordings has done nothing to solve the alcoholism and addiction problem and cannot even begin to explain it.
ateam2600hz 11 months ago
The aa prog would've been great if god actually existed
doirevomba 11 months ago 23
@doirevomba Cain stoned Abel to death and HE'd been pissed.
andreasheinz 11 months ago
@doirevomba we are glad you quit also.
sbmf56 7 months ago
whats he got against rocks'?
tIs4gatorbait 11 months ago
the idea is not to promote drinking, but to draw attention to the fact that 12 step programs are Bullshit. Pay attention.
LokiFreign 1 year ago
@LokiFreign I dont think the idea is even that, I think its just idiotic to say that 12 step programs are Bullshit. They may not work for some, but have worked for others....... nothing more and nothing less.
marcusdolby1 1 year ago
I've heard that Jonesy is fat again!
henryporter101 1 year ago
@henryporter101 To be fat is no eating disorder.
But even an eating disorder isn't wrong "as such"!
andreasheinz 1 year ago
@andreasheinz You're right.I was just fooling around.Penn and Teller obviously have no idea about addiction.This video would be more balanced if they took their cameras to the streets and filmed the violence caused by drinking.
henryporter101 1 year ago
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andreasheinz 1 year ago
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andreasheinz 1 year ago
I like Jonesy
scarletgriffon 1 year ago
I like this!
Nicolasduca 1 year ago
If it works for people and it saves lives why would they want to debunk it.There's a reason why there are so many 12 Step Programs,it works!!!!Looks like Penn & Teller need some new writers if this is all they got .
jubenville00 1 year ago
AA is bullshit for the weak. I'm so much happier after I stopped going to meetings. I subscribe to the Neil Peart philosophy: "I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose FREE WILL!" Have a little confidence and faith in YOURSELVES and just do it. There is plenty of literature and books that gives alternative methods for staying sober. Start by cutting out sweets and caffeine!! Ever been to an AA meeting without those two things that perpetuate addictive behavior???
CHHSE1986 1 year ago 18
@CHHSE1986
"AA is bullshit for the weak."
AA is for people who don't want to stop drinking... (So yeah, weak in that sense...)
That's the difference between them and you...
It's as simple as that...
Hammersley1967 9 months ago
No opinion on outside(bullshit)issues!!!
jubenville00 1 year ago
They don't understand alcoholism. Funny these guys want debunk AA and root around finding people with stories and rhetoric to support their "just quit" use your willpower simple minded idea. The very essence of alcoholism is the sufferers inability to use their own thinking to abstain (not cure). Countless alcoholics try to quit with the P&T 1 step program but can't. Why? A real alcoholic is powerless to fight the disease themselves. Many try over and over and cannot. That is where AA begins.
linuxbass 1 year ago
@linuxbass What you're talking about is addiction.If alcoholism was a disease cured by the 12 steps,then how do the 12 steps apply to the families of alcoholics-Al anon?And there is Al Alateen,a 12 step program for those who just happened to be born into a family which has a parent who got addicted to alcohol.Wilson rejected the term 'disease'.,his view is that it is a 'spiritual malady'.The 12 steps are faith healing,I wasted 6 years in that cult,thinking I had a 'disease'.
henryporter101 1 year ago
I like her!
talayuma 1 year ago
a.d.d moment penn and busey were both in fear and loathing in las vegas
cossedge781 1 year ago
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andreasheinz 1 year ago
HA love this show
ftatarnik 1 year ago
No idea what crap you're talking about with the Buddhist. He can fight it if he was religious or not. Christian or not. You know you don't need god for Buddhism, right?
mcallen83 1 year ago
People are sent to AA by a court. It's a faith based body and pretty much christian. AA working, higher power, 12 step models are all irrelevant. You missed the whole point of the video. The issue is the government has no business sending people to these things. You don't see that?
mcallen83 1 year ago
@mcallen83 First, there is no one single point in this vid.
Second, but if one point is most important, its: "aa not working". Thats what Penn and Teller says.
Third, I've seen many people hidding their real issues and playing tricks at yt-aa. Thats not working neither.
andreasheinz 1 year ago
@andreasheinz Have you seen the other shows? The series is about BULLSHIT. The whole point of the show is about the point in my last comment. Why would the other issues matter at all?
Last time. The show is talking about the government, via the courts, sending people to a mandatory faith based recovery program. It's that simple. The main people that object are non Christians/non religious people. Christian or not, it's a violation. Irrelevant if AA works or that shit you said about hiding.
mcallen83 1 year ago
@mcallen83 "Last time. The show is talking about the government"
This show talks about the governement. Oups, Hughes Act, Highway Act, NIAAA, Knickerbocker Paradox etc all the time, sorry.
andreasheinz 1 year ago
Same question again. What makes you think their doing that? Why are they doing that? What does it have to do with the subject anyway? If you're going by the video then I don't think you understood it.
Even if you "had" to pray to a rock or toaster, at least it's real lol. So you say a court ruled religious people have to pray to both toasters and rocks? At the same time?
mcallen83 1 year ago
@mcallen83 !?! I dont get that "question": P&T, aa, courts.
The subjects of the video are, FE:
- 12 step US standard model
- disease / powerless concept
- higher power / "spiritual solution"
- aa works. THIS is the central argument BTW
- other options
A court ruled, that an individual claiming to be very religious, specific Buddhist, was violated in his rights at aa. Objective free to pray to whatever powers, he's still subjective pissed. Thats the core of 1st amendment.
andreasheinz 1 year ago
When you get the balls to answer a question, let me know. Till then, keep deleting your posts. Crushing your ridiculous logic was kind of fun. Also, thank you for deleting your posts. Doing us all a favor. Sorry to the parents, if only they could delete you so easily. oh well. Keep up the random insults, a lot easier than answering questions.
mcallen83 1 year ago
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andreasheinz 1 year ago
@mcallen83 "What about religious people forced to pray to rocks and tosters?"
Thats whats the court case has answered.
andreasheinz 1 year ago
"yet you claim to be a person of science??" - where did this come from? You just type out any random thoughts don't you? No connect to the last, just comes out like the crap out of your ass.
mcallen83 1 year ago