Plug-in hybrid misconceptions refuted

[automotiveDIY]

ill stick with a diesel thank you very much.

[theslimeylimey]

Has anyone done a study to determine what the cost of electricity would be if say 80% of the country used plug electric vehicles?

I am thinking that would require the construction of many more power coal and gas or nuclear power stations which aren't cheap. I could see electricity easily doubling in cost if not more.

[CHUCKWAGON1009]

mister mustach you forgot to tell them the price will be to high!

[qernst8]

So the gasoline-powered generator...does that need the application of a transmission? Being simply a "generator" it doesn't seem like it would need one, since it's not really driving the wheels. Right? Or am I way off? I mean, the lack of a transmission alone would knock a couple thousand dollars of the price of car. So will PHEVs be more affordable than regular hybrids too?

[el6milonguero]

Yea, you are right. BUT! on the other hand, if you have ever bought a replacement-battery for your lap top you will understand that the cost for the battery alone will be greater then the cost for the transmission. I just wish that they would do a version where the expensive batteries where changed for cheaper ones. I dont need a backseat. Then normal people could afford it and really make a differance.

[qernst8]

Ahhh gotcha. That makes sense, unfortunately. :( lol

I agree with you, though. I'd be fine with a 2-seater vehicle. I seldom use my backseat anyway.

[Jaeh1]

Those savings applied to the cost of the car over say....4 years for me takes the car price down to just $10K out of pocket cost. At current prices and miles driven averaged out over a year, I am spending about $5K per year on gas.

4 x $5,000 = $20,000

$30,000 - $20,000 = $10,000

Actually, the savings is MORE. There won't be anymore oil changes, or tune-ups. Of course EVs will have maintenance needs, but won't come close to that of an ICE vehicle. EVs are more efficient than ICEs.

[liveoilfree]

Not only can you make more electric than you need to drive a plug-in car, but the money you DON'T spend on gasoline more than pays for your rooftop solar system.

[automotiveDIY]

@Jaeh1 you still have to change transmission fluid, you still have to change differential fluid, you still have to grease balljoints, tierods, and wheel bearings. and all of that is made from petroleum oils.

[Jaeh1]

@automotiveDIY, For a hybrid, I agree with you. For a pure EV, there is no tranny or differential. As for grease requirements, they will continue to be a part of the vehicle maintenance routine. It will be awhile before a substitute for ALL the things for which we use petroleum (grease, plastic parts, tires, meds, etc.) We may not see the end of the use of petroleum in our lifetime, but it IS coming....whether we convert to another source or run out.

[Jaeh1]

@automotiveDIY, As for your diesel, it originally got its start running on peanut oil. At some point, we will probably go back to those days, or some form of natural oil that won't require drilling, We can grow sources of natural oils on our own native land. I think you would agree, every effort to reduce imported petroleum helps reduce the overall fuel cost.

[Jaeh1]

The demand for crude would have dropped. The cost would be more than $1, but less than current prices. EVs would have a 'history' in which to gauge the future.

Even at $30K, these cars are very affordable. Subtract the cost of charging an EV from the cost of the gas equivalent. Now subtract that from the cost of the car. After all, with a plug-in, there will be no more stops at the gas station.....

[Jaeh1]

EVs were coming along good in the late 90s. Oil got involved and almost snuffed it out. GM destroyed/disabled all of their EVs. Toyota/Ford sold theirs. Some/most of those RAV EVs are still running on the same batteries and electric motors with over 100K-150K miles on them. Had Toyota, Ford, Honda, Nissan, and GM kept going, we would have some VERY nice EVs on the road now. With the availability of EVs for those interested, remaining ICE vehicle owners would have cheaper gas.

[warmingtone]

"gas" prices in the USA are generally subsidized, elsewhere prices are far higher and the love of huge cars, SUV's and trucks only fueled by this fact.

The submarine analogy is a good one. However, the technology in storage, electronics and electric motors is very much underdeveloped. You will not get a no fuel car, it is physically impossible to generate as much as you use to travel. Asking too much too soon is unreasonable, this is a stepping stone.

This is a big step in the right direction!

[KnightChatX]

But it's like an old Submarine, when submarine is underwater it uses an electric engine, above water a diesel engine and charges batteries. As an engine runs alternator recharges battery, the battery handles electrical load, alternator would overheat and overload if not for battery used for storage. And a capacitor takes further load off battery, but a generator and better alternator would produce more energy.

[KnightChatX]

I'd rather not plug anything in at all.

[valhala56]

That is the whole problem with alternative energy and electric cars is people like you who told the car companies you would rather not plug in anything, WTF is wrong with plugging your car in ovenite? If it wasn't for people like you I would have an electric car now and not pay $4 a gallon in gas your motherf@cker.

[KnightChatX]

I tend to look at the big picture of right now. Realistic solutions need implemented now and not within the next 50 to 100 years. Availability is a big factor. The projected gas price was expected to possibley be $10 a gallon, I haven't seen it that high yet but anything over $1 a gallon for gas is too high anyway, and that estimate was years ago.

[KnightChatX]

The majority of cars out there today, billions, run off gasoline, everyone in the entire world cannot afford to spend $21,000 to $40,000 overnight and buy a brand new car, and it's unrealistic to expect everyone to do so when prices on everything is so high. There are plenty of ways to use existing vehicles and implement solutions to make them use less gas or even implement cheaper alternatives, not neccessarily biofuel.

[KnightChatX]

In fact at the prices now I don't know many people that can afford gas, food, bills, and house work from storm damage, when other fee's are being tacked on, let alone go out and buy a $149,000 vehicle like what has been coming out lately. Automotive manufactures can't expect to sale new cars highly when people can't afford them.

The average car is a combustion driven engine using combustion based principles. They should focus on cheap upgrade options for their existing vehicles.

[KnightChatX]

And the point I was getting at of not plugging in anything is designing the vehicle to where it doesn't depend on any external power supply or even a gas pump, doesn't need to be plugged in and maintins consistant and independant constant supply on the fly. It's a misintepretation to think I was saying using alternative energy solution is wrong, I'm saying to implement better more realistic solutions now that everyone can use today, right here right now, because the problems we face are now.

[KnightChatX]

You don't have to plug the car in to charge it up lmao. When your car runs it turns an alternator, the alternator is an electrical generator that puts energy back into the battery, the battery stores it but accounts for the load from power draw from electrical devices to keep alternator coils from overheating and burning out. Even that system isn't needed, but it's something the average and billions of vehicles worldwide have today. Alternator and battery combination. Look at ignition coil.

[valhala56]

KnightChatX has a good point maybe retrofitting some existing cars with tax incentives.

[liveoilfree]

You WANT to plug it in to charge it! The fact that the Prius can't plug in means it is STILL A GASOLINE CAR and gets all its motive power, ultimately, from the gas pump.

That's the problem, not the solution.

[KnightChatX]

Yeah I wouldn't mind not using gas at all, but if you can implement a cheap money solution now and if the majority of cars now today and generators and other equipment for a longtime use gas, especially in foreign countries and can't afford a brand new car or multi thousand dollar conversions, you do what you can do today, not wait for 100 years to roll by because you won't be here. Solutions need implemented now not later.

[KnightChatX]

There are many ways in which to live life, and you can switch gas and run the same engine.

if it's not broke don't fix it is an old mechanics/engineers saying, and there's nothing wrong with improving on existing technologies to achieve better results.

Realistically, the entire world cannot junk their vehicles overnight and factories engines overnight.

The only reason you'd want to change anything at all, to bring down cost, improve effeciency, lower emissions and impact to the environment.

[KnightChatX]

I don't wanna go to a gas station to put anything in the car anymore, rather not fill up at a gas pump at all, if I do want it to last and do it at home, I'd rather not plug in a cord either at home either, plug unplug plug unplug plug unplug over and over and over again.

If it's something the average person can afford and do themselves good.

I'd rather by a new house than pay half the price of a home for a new car when you'll pay thousands in gas and still be paying for the car!!!

[GSpotter63]

If a supercapacitor is add to the mix it could hold the charge from regenerative breaking (as at a stop light) then dump it back to the wheels during acceleration saving much wear and tear on the battery pack.

[liveoilfree]

Exactly right; this is the sort of thing that WE can figure out, but the auto companies seem to ignore. This is the kind of "hybrid" that makes sense; so don't expect GM to do it! GM is destined to fail.

[diggingforgold]

Absolutely. But I think the biggest problem isn't the genset, but the fact that we are lead foots. People like to feel the torque that an electric motor can supply. Aggressive acceleration does a lot more wear on a pack than a genset sustaining a charge or regenerative braking would.

I now think that the key to the Volts success isn't in Li-ion (too costly), but in using ultracapactors (like from EEStor), of which supposedly can be produced for under $70/kWh and have a higher energy density.

[willdryden]

If EEStor gets into production at that price, I'll take 100kWh worth. Last I heard from EEStor was that they had manufacturing problems. They can produce them in a lab, but not mass produced

[FreeEnergyWorld]

where can i buy an electric car!

I don't care how fast it can go, or how far, 40miles is fine for what i need on a daily basis.

I just refuse to buy another fossile fuel car!

Vote with your wallet, if enough of us refuse to buy fossile fuel cars, the car makers will realize their sales are down and will give consumers what they want!

Car makers take note, if you want my money, give me an electric car i can test drive and buy off the lot!

[1samothrace2]

what about taking out the gas engine and adding a second battery pack charge one while using the other ?

[mianersiyok]

But this video isn't about trolls. lol! I would say that the video IS related to battery electrics because it is a comparison, if you noticed, of the two types. Even the the description of the video suggests that it is related so I don't know what you mean. I don't hate the volt so if you're thinking im a volt hater then you are wrong. I think the volt WOULD BE a great car, but EVs are greater to me. Plain and simple.

[Librarian62]

This is all much ado about nothing. GM has zero intention of bringing the volt to the marketplace. There will be a "prototype test program" a few people in Califonia only will be able to lease the car and then the announcement will be made "there was no interest in the car" there will be no serious promotion of the car and they will all be recalled and destroyed leaving a good 7-10 years of selling big profitable SUVs unmolested by regulators or the public.....

now tell me I'm crazy...

[liveoilfree]

Lib, you are exactly right. GM is just plain lying, as usual.

[liveoilfree]

Why we laugh at GM: Video of the Volt prototype, creeping along at 10 mph in the gutter on its golf-cart motor!

GM could not even scare up one EV1 motor, because that's a fairly complicate piece of machinery. It took Alan C. maybe a week or two to create it.

But it would take GM YEARS just to start to attempt to understand it! To imagine GM engineers could even modify this 3-ph inductive motor is a big, fat, GUFFAW!!

[liveoilfree]

Why we laugh at GM: they don't know how to do EVs. Of course! They crushed them.

GM doesn't even have a battery expertise, only a battery testing lab, so it's dependent upon its suppliers. If they fail, GM can plausibly claim it sincerely tried.

Guffaw!!

[willdryden]

Unfortunately, your concept of the Volt is incorrect. With a 53kW generator as proposed by GM, the generator will power the car AND charge the batteries at the same time. This will cause the batteries to cycle almost once per hour on a long trip.

[liveoilfree]

But, the point is, it DOESN'T HAVE TO! So if GM knew what it were doing, it would not have this self-created difficulty, which any EV person knows is not a difficulty at all, but a "fly in the bottle" kind of guffaw.

[willdryden]

Actually it does have to at some point. Even if the generator is sized so that the top speed with dead batteries is only 60 mph, the generator will put some kind of charge in the batteries at any speed below 60 mph. GM has just made the problem worse by putting a generator that, according to them, will enable you to maintain 100 mph after the batteries are depleted.

[liveoilfree]

Will, it really isn't a problem, it's a software issue. The generated electric just goes into the main shunt, like a solar system pushing power both into the home or the grid if the home doesn't need it.

Those who say the Serial Hybrid has to cycle more just aren't familiar with how an EV runs.

[willdryden]

So you want to trash the efficiency of the system so that the batteries will not cycle. Good plan. You might as well go buy a Hummer.

[liveoilfree]

Will, the batteries cycle exactly the same as a full EV, exactly once per outing. Of course, you COULD cycle them more, but that would not be wise.

[willdryden]

Doug, you are being inefficient and narrow-minded. If the generator on the Volt was only 20kW, that would supply the car at 60 MPH with depleted batteries. If you only go 40 MPH, what are you going to do with the excess electricity that is being generated? The logical and most efficient answer is to charge the battery. You do not have to charge the battery to 100% before the generator shuts off, but charging the battery is the efficient answer.

[willdryden]

Since the proposed generator for the Volt is 53kW, either there will be a lot of wasted electricity or the batteries will recharge in less than 30 minutes while the car is being driven.

Your call -- Throw away enough electricity to run your house or charge the batteries while you drive. My answer is cycle the battery. It is more efficient and the whole goal is to increase efficiency.

[diggingforgold]

willdryden,

Doug is absolutely correct. Who says that the genset has to run at full RPM? I know when we think of generators, we think of a constant RPM, but if the manufacturers of a plug-in hybrid make it smart enough, the car can throttle the genset according to demand, thus save on gas and unnecessary battery charging.

As Doug said, you want to charge the batteries from the grid, not from gas. The genset should only be used to keep the pack at a consistent charge.

[willdryden]

The whole point of a serial hybrid is that the ICE engine runs at it's most efficient speed. I would rather see a much smaller genset from the start. If I buy one, I will put a toggle switch in to "start" signal for the genset and turn it off when I was close enough to get to where I could plug the car in with current charge on the battery pack.

[Zobeid]

Once the generator comes on, it should "micro-cycle" the battery with short periods of charging and discharging, while keeping an overall low state-of-charge. Li-ion cells can handle these micro-cycles very well, without degradation.

It might be annoying to have the ICE going on and off a lot, though.

[willdryden]

That is the last thing you want it to do. Most of the wear on an IC engine is during the first 30 seconds after the engine starts. The fewer number of times the engine starts the better.

[mianersiyok]

well, it doesnt really need the engine generator. thats the whole point of Dougs videos. lol.

[willdryden]

This video was about the srtess on the battery pack of a serial hybrid. That DOES mean there is a need for an engine generator. Watch the video before you make your comments.

[mianersiyok]

I have watched the video before commenting, as a matter of fact..I have nearly seen all 87 of his videos. What is your point? This is a comment area, I can leave whatever comment I choose as long as it relates to the subject. Suppose you might actually learn how to leave a meaningful comment, perhaps then people will care to read it. I am well aware that a plug-in hybrid needs both batteries and an engine, if you have not seen his other videos

[mianersiyok]

you might wan't to watch them, only then will you know what my previous comment meant.

[liveoilfree]

Will, the whole point of the VOLT is that it's an EV (with an optional range-extender). So the proposed VOLT is a 40-mile-range EV. Heck, we've got a lot of those!! You need to understand this is not a difficult thing to do.

[willdryden]

I am NOT suggesting it is difficult. I am suggesting you do not know how it will work. When you introduce the output of a generator to the input of the braking shunt, whatever power is not used to propel the vehicle will tend to charge the battery. Therefore the battery will cycle more than a normal EV. With regen braking or a properly sized generator, these are micro cycles. With the Volt and a 53 kW generator, they will tend to be full cycles.

[GSpotter63]

If a supercapacitor is add to the mix it could hold the charge from regenerative breaking (as at a stop light) then dump it back to the wheels during acceleration saving much wear and tear on the battery pack.

[willdryden]

The micro cycles from regen braking do not put much stress on the batteries. Supercaps would tend to give you better recovery and acceleration because they can accept and discharge faster. The cost however would put the car beyond the reach of most drivers. the current price for a 31 wH supercap is over $1100. That is 33 times more expensive than lithium batteries.

[liveoilfree]

Well, nominally you have an IC engine. But I'd just take it out, it just unplugs, and drive it like an EV. If GM ever does come out with the VOLT, I'll add batteries and take out the IC.

[Bogt]

Ok I love the idea of an serial hybrid. But you still need an ICE engine that needs gas! You still have all the moving parts (tailpipe, pistons etc.) that can fail and need tuneups and expensive servicing. Also it's expensive to build and sell. All that technology in a car doesn't come for free!

[Bogt]

Ok I love the idea of a serial hybrid, but I am more into a efficient car by design that needs less power then an convention car. With a serial hybrid you still have an ICE. You are transporting the weight of the ICE when in electric mode, reducing range. You still need all the ICE junk components (tailpipe etc.), moving parts that need servicing and tune ups (oil).

[Bogt]

What about a lighter car that's designed to consume less energy in the first place? Get 250 miles or more with 10 year old RAV4 EV technology? Look @ the Loremo(DOT)com!!