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From: numberphile
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  • So if root to is irrational then why does the the paper end?

  • @skyvb1 That has got to be one of the most stupid questions I have seen.

  • Well to be exactly truthful when you took the square root of 2 you would have gotten plus or minus the the square root of 2

  • i cant be the only one who doesnt understand this

  • @SamwizeTheBrave1 i'm in silly 10th grade geometry. pqrd3's reply cleared up any confusion i had. These guys are very good teachers. I'm still not sure how proving a # impossible makes it... an impossible #

  • why can't they be two even numbers? what about four over two or any even number over two? I think the last bit wasn't explained properly, can somebody help me here?

  • @upbeatanime Because if they are both even numbers they can be written in a lower form. Like 2/4 is the same as writing 1/2, which is the lowest way (using integers) of writing one half. The problem is that they started off by saying that a/b is written as two integers in lowest terms, so both a and b being even contradicts this.

  • @pqrd3 thanks, it makes sense now.

  • @upbeatanime A/B is meant to be the root of 2 in it's smallest possible form (Like 1/2 is a half in it's smallest possible form) in it's smallest possible form, a fraction has one even number and one odd number which that equation doesn't have, therefore the fraction is impossible

  • @gta4megafan thanks, i didn't know that before.

  • @upbeatanime a/b is meant to be in lowest possible terms, so its not 2a/2b.Thats a premise of the problem.

    it's like getting 2/4 instead of 1/2 as the lowest simplification. no sense made. if both # are even,then they can both be divided by 2,and therefor, are not the lowest possible digit-even though it is...making it impossible...i think.

  • But the side lengths of A4 paper does not come to an integer; If you measured it u will see that there are decimals.

  • 2 divided by the square root of 2 equals the square root of 2. Does that make you mad?

  • @meteoryoshi He specifically said whole numbers. Root 2 isn't a whole number.

  • This video is better than sex.

  • 6:05 ashume :P

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  • my brain just got raped

  • @jonesmm3 A peace of paper has not two whole numbers as their side lenghts, therefore everything they said is right :-)

  • @RittervonSt So what you're saying is that you can create irrational numbers simply by taking ratios between non-integers? It sounds like that's what you're saying...

  • Please explain why a is an even number.

  • 4 and evil numbers ;)

  • @TheScars75 They don't, they waited until it's 12:01

  • The proof shown at the end is my all time favorite proof ever done in the field of mathematics.

  • SUPPORT KONY 2012

  • Mum, i am being educated on youtube...

  • The ration of the long side/short side of A4 paper is really really close to the square root of 2.

    The thing is, you can never ever get the actual value of the square root of 2 with division. The square root of 2, or 3 or 5... or pi are irrational number so you can only come infinitely close to it with division, but never actually reach it.

    Ration of A4 paper: 1.414285714...

    Square root of 2: 1.41421313562...

    close enough

  • I have to say, as far as cults go, a math centric one seems preferable to... well any other kind

  • LOL. I did this A4 ratio calculation when I was in high-school. Not as an assignment but by myself as a entertaining puzzle. I only now realize I what I was doing. Got into art though, not in maths. Still aiming for my own desert island though. ;^)

  • you could also have negitive root 2

  • why do they always use brown paper and not whiteboards?

  • somebody stop him he's going to get a paper cut

  • Math > sleep > Algebra 2 homework

    <3

  • Golden Ratio! sorta

  • no more markers on paper!!

  • MY BRAIN HURTS WHICH MEANS I AM SUBBED

  • You could also find out that it would be the square root of 2 by using the special triangle that it will always be, or at least for the 1x1 triangle.

  • I live in America where we traditionally use 8.5" x 11" paper. Is this video relevant to me or did I just misunderstand it?

  • To root one is fine, to root two is totally irrational.

  • @dubaipete Don't even get me started on root NEGATIVE one :P

  • If root 2 cannot be written as a fraction, then what is the length and width of A4 paper, since the length over the width = root 2?

  • @nopuelbmuts It isn't exactly root 2, but it is somewhat close, I'm guessing.

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  • Never thought I would hear a number described as "sordid"!

  • the younger guy is too patronizing! other than that it is a good vid!

  • @deggerzz1 I don't agree. Enthusiastic yes, patronizing no. Please check other videos in this series, then see if you still think the same. peace.

  • Well then didnt you contradict your self when talking about how the sides of the paper divided equals root 2 but then saying that root 2 cannot be written as a fraction or am i missing something?

  • @putty119 He made a mistake (or was just unclear) with his definitions (he's proving the \sqrt 2 is not a real number: A number that can be written as a fraction in the form of m/n where m and n are integers.)

    So technical you are correct depending on what definition you use, because in reality I can write any number as fraction or ratio with a denominator as 1.

  • you cant prove that b is even just by saying that a=2c. you could have made a equal to any number. for example, if you made a equal to 3c, you would not come up with an even number.

  • @platinumpikachu13 You must remember the explicit restrictions he placed on the variables at the start of his proof and remember some important definitions:

    a and b are integers and in reduced form: if a and b are separately divided by any number the result must not be an integer

    Even number: An integer that is divisible by 2 giving a integer quotient.

    even^(2) = even

    odd^(2) = odd

    We rearrange to: a^(2) = [ b^(2) ] / 2

    Therefore b must be even.

  • HIS MARKER SAYS A! MINDFUCK!

  • @numberphile can a "contradiction" also be called an indirect proof?

  • singing banana :P

  • 3:22 Nice pronunciation.

  • "The sqRuare Root of 2" thats adorable.

  • So what was shown at the end proves absolutely that the A series of paper is a lie.

  • @jonesmm3 no, because a and b at 3:00 dont have to be integers. so a/b is not a fraction, just two numbers divided

  • @jonesmm3 No, it shows why the length and width of the A series of paper are not whole numbers.

  • @RellikDesign *the ratio of length and width.

  • @jonesmm3 and why is that?

  • @jonesmm3 wait youre right! If you can get the long side of a paper divided by the short side to equal √2 then you are indeed writing it as a fraction. What the heck.. what am i missing in my understanding of this.

  • @blackout2240 The thing is that the length of a side of paper is not limited to integer ;) You see - in the proof we assumed that a and b are integers, so we proved that sqrt(2) can not be written as a fraction of integers. No one said anythign about decimal numbers :)

  • @lvojnovic ah, as i figured after i thought about it for a while. thanks for the reply

  • A4 paper is 8.5 x 11. 11 / 8.5 = 1.2941 ...

    Fold it in half 8.5 / 5.5 = 1.54 ...

    Fold it in half 5.5 / 4.25 = 1.2941 ...

    While it may have a predictable series of out comes, it does not always (ever) equal root 2 (1.4142 ... )

  • @Dakktyrel Sorry to inform you that the official dimensions for A4 paper is 8.3 x 11.7 in

    and true it doesn't exactly equal root 2, however, it is extremely close.

    11.7/8.3 = 1.409638...

    root 2 = 1.414213...

  • @Dakktyrel That's what he said, that rad(2) was impossible to represent as a fraction.

  • I'm disappointed. I thought this was going to be really complex -_-

  • i thought this was possible with the golden ratio too? hmm

  • Do one about Galileo's paradox.. Mind blowing!

  • I wonder what the bikers thought when they saw the guy explaining root 2

  • forehead vagina.

  • In which direction are they supposed to piss at noon?

  • @TheScars75 As long as they aren't lying on their backs I think they're good.

  • @TheScars75 I guess any direction but 'up' is fine :)

  • @TheScars75 The sun is "up" right? Well don't piss up. Answer solved.

    The real question is what to do when your toilet faces east or west. What am i supposed to do now? :)

  • @TheScars75 They'd have to piss northwards if they live north of the Tropic of Cancer, southwards if they live south of the Tropic of Capricorn, or northwards or southwards depending on the time of year if they live between the Tropics.

  • @TheScars75 Simple, you don't piss at noon.

  • @TheScars75 Depends which hemisphere you're in.

  • @TheScars75 The sun can pass directly overhead, or underfoot, in the tropics, and the tropic of cancer is way down in Africa; which was how Eratosthenes was able to calculate the shape and size of the Earth, though that was several hundred years later.

  • @TheScars75 Towards Mecca? 

  • @TheScars75 lying face down. ;P

  • @TheScars75 any direction except up

  • @TheScars75 Not up! :3

  • @TheScars75 Certainly not up

  • @TheScars75 straight down!

  • @TheScars75 Straight down?

  • @TheScars75 exactly to the ground at a 90 degree angle

  • @TheScars75 Hold it.

  • OBJECTION! Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for heresy stemming from his pantheistic views.

  • @ObadiahtheSlim

    Uh, that is what the professor said, so why the objection? Pantheism is the view that God is the universe, or that God expresses himself as the universe. The Catholic church did not like this theory due to their assumption that God must be separate from the universe, but Giordano's view left no room for God thus he was burned for his pantheistic view that the universe is infinite.

  • My question is: How did you figure a=2c why can't it be a=3c

    sorry if that question sounds a bit stupid, but if a=3c then b^2 doesn't necessarily have to be even, so it's pretty important that a=2c for this video to be true.

  • @commetsmasher Because a has to be even and any even number can be written as 2 times some integer (in this case c)...so if a was 2 then c would be 1, if a was 14 then c would be 7, if a was 2680 then c would be 1340, and so on, so any even number a can be written as the product of 2 and some other integer (2c), that obviously is not true for 3c since any odd value for c would make a odd, which is not allowed.

  • @TheJMan211 ok, that makes sense! Thanks, this helped a lot :)

  • Wait, but if you do sqrt(4), can't it also be disproved, even though it can be written as a fraction?

  • @MysteryR000 No, if you do this for sqrt(4) you get 4=a^2/b^2 then 4*b^2=a^2, do the substitution for a to get 4*b^2=(2c)^2=4*c^2 which yields the result b^2=c^2, b and c are both positive integers so b=c=0.5*a so a/b=2.

  • @MysteryR000 and that doesn't prove that b is even

  • @TheJMan211 Yes, but the point is that if lets say we are trying to disprove sqrt(3) it would NOT be an even number, but one divisible by 3. Plus, if a/b = 4 then how did you get a/b = 2?

  • ...there's a book called "The Square Root of 2." It has a green cover, yellow binder, orange back cover, and is authored by David Flannery.

  • irrational = not RATIOnal, not not rational

  • :brilliant:

  • Please no more markers on paper, please for the love of Christ!

  • These guys make me hate math way less.

  • lol, it seems infinity is an even number....

  • @masluxx even numbers are intigers, which are rational numbers. We cannot describe infinity as a ratio.

  • How can the ratio between the two side of paper be the square root of two if that is impossible? That would also mean that there is no ratio that stays the same when you would fold the paper in half.

  • @pielover267 Because in reality the ratio between the sides of A0 (or A-whatever) paper approximates sqrt(2). A0 paper is 1189x841 mm, so 1189/841=1.41379... whereas sqrt(2)=1.41421... The ideas is that the ratio should be sqrt(2), but then by defining the lengths of both edges of the paper as integers, they only make the ratio close to sqrt(2). But still, if you fold A0 paper in half 8 times then round it to get A8 paper (74x52mm), it's still 74/52=1.423..., which is really close to sqrt(2).

  • 11 / 8.5 = 1.29411765

    square root(2) = 1.41421356

    Close but no cigar.

  • @erik4727 A4 is not 8.5 X 11, that's american paper.

  • still don't believe me? BAM!!!

    h t tp: // w w w. mathsisfun. com / irrational - numbers . html

  • @drizzy8450 From that website, right under the golden ratio:

    "But √4 = 2 (rational), and √9 = 3 (rational) ...

    ... so not all roots are irrational."

  • Hey bub guess what: the square root of any number is irrational, meaning that any irrational number can not be accurately expressed as a fraction. The ratio of the longest and shortest edge of that piece of paper may be approximately equal to the square root of 2. in this video you say "will be the square root of 2." That is an untrue statement. Case closed

  • @drizzy8450 Except for like... 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169... to name a few.

  • @drizzy8450

    √256 = 16

    √16 = 4

    √4 = 2

  • I love your videos :D

  • MINDFUCKED.

  • @PoopTruffles i am in sixth grade and i kind of understand this because i love math but other than that, MINDFUCKED.

  • @MrDudeer That was completely called for. (sarcasm)

  • @PoopTruffles what do you mean? i was agreeing wit you not being mean

  • @MrDudeer o__o

  • a/b = b/0.5a

    This does not equal a^2 = 2b^2.

    The reason is because your second fraction is 0.5a, so how did you get a^2? Did you throw away the 0.5? (by 0.5, im referring to 1/2 times a)

    I'm no wiz in Math, so please dont be upset if this is a dumb question.

  • @thewanderer916 you get 0.5a^2 = b^2. If you divide both sides by 0.5, you get a^2 = 2b^2. C'mon guy, it's simple arithmetic.

  • @thewanderer916

    It's correct, instead of using .5 a^2, both sides were multiplied by two (or divided by.5 if you have no soul). So, instead of .5a^2=b^2, it is a^2=2b^2.

    Also, .5a*a=.5a^2, I think that was your main problem, look up the commutative property if you need to know why.

  • wait i was watching futurama HOW THE- o nevermind

  • ISO 216, heck yeah!

  • My number hurts.

  • A4 . . . mmm not in north america we have letter sized paper which is a bit smaller than A4

  • @thutama That's because it isn't made in the A size ratio. Not all paper is made the same. He was saying that all the A scale paper goes with the ratio of root 2, not all paper is.

  • i like how the first half of this video tells us that the sides of paper have a ratio of root 2, and the second half of the video tells us that there are no numbers that have a ratio of root 2

  • @jarchibald14 Because it's an infinite number. The ratio won't be exactly root 2, it's like 1.41 or some other approximation.

  • @jarchibald14 It's about fractions of integers, a should be an integer, b should be a positive integer. That's how the rational numbers are defined.

  • @jarchibald14 There are no INTEGERS that have a ratio of root 2 :)

  • B = c*radical(2)...congrats on the infinite loop contradiction otherwise known as a pardox. You proved nothing.

  • I have a hard time imagining a length being defined as something that has an infinite number of decimal places so that you can never have a definite length, even though it's bound between the two sides with lengths of 1.

  • @MrJepcats

    after about 5 decimals or so the rest just become meaningless, because they mean so little...

  • Too many Numberphile vids in a row makes Homer go something something...

  • I am wondering how I can be so fascinated by something I understand so little of...

  • 2+2=4. Can I join you'll club now?

  • heres a cool thing about radical 2:

    if you have a square, the diagonal is always "radical 2"(w)

    w being the width

  • somebody tell me why im watching math videos outside of class. and why am i interested...?

  • @ifajig1

    me too XD this seems much more interesting than math class...

  • @ifajig1 Because in school, you don't learn about math, you mostly learn about computation. There are not more than a hand full of proofs I remember from school. Math is beautiful in itself, but math in school scares many people, because you are teached to apply rules while not knowing where they come from. At least that's my experience. It got so much better in university.

  • A0 is a meter squared ? Now I know why americans have something else :)

  • Root(2) / 1.

    BAM.

    Root(2) written as a fraction!

  • @gh4ever101 Haha. :P Nice. Fraction implies integer numerator and integer denominator though.

  • @Exfenestracide *Sigh* I kind of figured that, sadly. :/

  • @gh4ever101 think they're looking for a fraction of integers...

  • what if a = c^2

    

  • Giordano Bruno, not Bruno Giordano, sorry to say...

  • @Dasagriva1 Don't be sorry---I make mistakes all the time. Brady does not allow us to have scripts so that I have no idea what I am going to say and somethings come out garbled. Usually he cuts them out. Hope you approve of the rest of the video.

  • The best thing about the Numberphile videos? There is a promise of an infinite number of them!

  • 7:32 - two odd numbers squared makes an odd number? I don't understand that :/

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  • @InvinciblEddy 3^2 = 3*3 = 9 > odd

    2^2 = 2*2 = 4 > even

    an even number can never be turned into an odd number by multiplying with any whole number

  • @InvinciblEddy if you square an odd number, you will get an odd answer (3 squared = 9, 5 squared = 25, 7 squared = 49). if you square an even number, you will get an even answer (2 squared = 4, 4 squared = 16)

  • talk about the gold number

  • It makes sense that there you can find paper sizes A0 (no folds/orignal) through A8 (8 folds from orignal) since you can never fold any size of paper of any thickness more than 8 times.

    Try it out yourself :)

  • @coolguty Someone did! Look up "Britney Gallivan" on wikipedia. (You're right that this was the conventional wisdom when those standards were put down, of course).

    

  • @BakerBritt ahhhh, I had thought of toilet paper. Thanks mate ;)

  • @coolguty And again, Britney Galliven demonstrated that toilet paper can be folded in half twelve times, not eight. :)

  • Comment removed

  • hey numberphile, did you know 1/998001 is 0.000 001 002 003 004 005 006......... all the way to 996 997 999 and then repeats with 001 002 003

    idk why but it DOES skip 998.

    thumbs this up so he and others can see this amazing math discovery!

  • @AtactHD sorry but this is not amazing at all.... you can easily find such numbers...

  • @AtactHD

    It goes 997 998 999 1000 1001. But we need to reduce these to 3 digit strings, so we start with the last one, moving the first 1 into the 0 from 1000, we get 997 998 999 1001 001. Next we move the 1 from 1001 into the last 9 in 999, giving us 997 998 1000 001 001. We do this one more time and we get 997 999 000 001 001. If we continue on, the last 001 will become 002, and so on until we get to 997 again, where we'll encounter the 2000 problem and skip again.

  • @vampiracy Nice expanation. 1/998001 is a Carousel number with a repetition length of 998000.