You CAN not lose your salvation BUT you CAN surrender it and walk away. You have free will. Many scriptures WARN of leaving the Faith. You cant leave what you never had to begin with. God will not be mocked. You cannot continually Sin and think I am saved. The wages of Sin is Death. Do not be deceived. You MUST repent.
I have gotten away from my initial intent. The intent of my comments was to have us genuinely not simplify another mystery of the Gospel so much at the risk of leading anybody astray. Clarifying and denouncing some poor practices is one thing, however this is not about actions/practices, it is a question of the heart and only God knows the heart. May God help us all.
Don't NEGATE the cross what Jesus did for all of us. Anything else cheapen's his grace. Sinnless perfection ,Replacement theology is a lie from the devil himself. There is only one Gospel that saves It's the one that God mentions in scripture time and time and time and time again all through out his holy word. Know man can pluck you from the Fathers hand, u know the scripture.
@MrPsalm53 I hope this could end, because instead of going back and forth, on a question as such we should focus on our connection to God, each and every one of us. May the Holy spirit settle this in each and every one of our hearts. Peter and Paul disagreed on a more important aspect of the Gospel for quite some times, so let us each focus on God purpose, vision for ourselves.
If one is honestly born again saved with God, and only God knows the heart and who is saved or not, lest anyone should judge. If you believe in conditional salvation or u could lose your salvation, U MAKE GOD OUT TO BE A LIAR. We are eternally secure our destination is sure, we can be chastised if we are backslidden we can even lose rewards at the bemis seat of the believer which is huge in the scop of eternity. Never lose our salvation, some will enter heaven by the SKIN OF THEIR TEETH.
Salvation starts with the confession/regnonition of our sinful nature, profession of Christ as Lord, belief in His resurected works. We should agree on that and also on the true fact that we do not work for our salvation, but we still have to work through it (Phil. 2:12 ). Let us love God with all oour being, Love our neighbor as ourselves and we can only grow in God.
Am I saved? I truly believe so, not because I am special but Because God says he will not deny me as long as I genuinely make him my everything. But I think we are making the mistake of looking around and finding out who else other than ourselves is saved. Our fruits are essentiel in confirming our salvation but the Human eyes only sees actions not motives/ not the heart. How about leaving the Salvation in the hands of the only one who Knows for sure: GOD! and not get into this bable?
Does not salvation start with a personal decision? if yes then once can change his mind, no? Faith is a gift, Salvation is a gift and there are free but do not them take our will to? About God not letting us go, I believe He will let anyone who wishes to go either by a decision or through actions. I think it is another mystery that should not received a yes or no answer, but that is just me. I'm not concerned about being right or wrong. May God continue to help us all.
@dajukbox Eternal Secuirity is true,John 5:24 says it.Also see Ephesians 2:8-10 ,Salvation has nothing to do with what we accomplish,it is about what Christ did.
Can Jesus lose His salvation? We have been crucified with Christ. Can anyone get uncrucified? The teaching that anyone could lose their salvation is absolutely pathetic. Total nonsense.
@UniversalismProven A lot of newly reborn christians have these kind of doubts. Once theyve walked with God for a while they begin to realize we are truly his children and nothing can change that. Satan loves to put doubts in our head.
@zestydude87 I truly believe I now have a better understanding, Salvation is not given instantly, it is obtained through a life long commitment, we know not by works .. Salvation is/will be finalized on judgement day. Christ acceptance is just a beginning, We barely know our own heart how could any of us here claim that he will always love Christ? Let us just thrive to do it daily and I think that what truly expected of us.
losing your salvation isnt equal to losing your keys.the only way to "lose" your salvation, is to curse God and completely turn away and reject Him.thats what I believe.
Once saved always saved? Isnt want sends people to Hell putinng the love of something else before the love of God? Boils down maybe to the sincerity of their conversion?
A coach tells his young team members, "work hard and you’ll win. I already know which of you will be victorious because I know your potentials and I will make sure you achieve it."
When the coach left, a strange man in black came forth and says “Your coach already knows which of you will win, so no matter what you do from now on you are confirmed victors!”.
And the lazy ones goes partying, while the rest no longer have practice partners.
So,I'm saved no matter what.Once saved,always saved.That's a relief.Now I can get a bottle of scotch,a bag of dope and go to the topless bar,just like I did before I was saved.If my liver gives out or I kill someone in a drunken car accident or if I get a divorce because of my infidelity.No problemo,I'm saved baby.Praise the lord.
@lifeseeker51 First of all.. God knows our Hearts.. If we are truly saved and keep His try hard to Follow Him and Keep His commandments, Those things probably wouldn't happen (Except Divorce, that is a different story.). What does Revelations say about the Lukewarm Christian?... Oh, that they will be spewed from His mouth. It is about Repentance, or, turning your life around. Are you really saved if you continue doing these things? Yes, by Grace we are forgiven. God knows our hearts.
@TH3B3A57 Don't get me wrong I'm aware that there are no perfect Christians,but one should always be aware of one's actions,even one's thoughts.So, is it possible for one to lose one's salvation? Definately.We all still have the option/choice of abandoning our faith/walk in Jesus.One can be an honest to God believer and still turn away for a variety of reasons.
@lifeseeker51 I agree. I'm don't know about the debated subject. I just know that I am saved, and I will stay that way. Though, once saved, we are blessed with the Holy Spirit which convicts us when we do wrong. Yes you can willfully turn. But, Somehow God always brings them back. He has for me, multiple times. Salvation can't be lost, because it is a free gift. But It can be thrown away for those who WANT to. There is a combination of free will and Pre destination. He already knows the future
@TH3B3A57 I'll agree,it's complicated.Here a while back I was witnessing to someone that had obviously at least been a student of scripture.I kept getting this mental image of Jesus being tempted by satan through scripture.Finally after I don't know how many rounds I went to Jesus in prayer.Is there any point in this case,was my question.His answer was Hebrews 6,4-6. Appearantly,this one had gone to far.
@lifeseeker51 According to the poster, yeah right. Then heaven will be full of alcoholics and drug addicts with God trying to send them to rehab. See what I mean these people are making a mockery of themselves.
@Youngsamsonful Well, one can go overboard in either direction.Some say"now that you are saved,do what thou wilt,thou art saved".Others say,"you can't do enough to be saved".While one is a licence to sin, the other is an unbearable burdon.I say we are saved by faith and that faith and the love of God is what keeps us on the path.If we come off,we feel it,turn around and get back on.It's a process that requires our participation.
@lifeseeker51 Ultimately we have to bear FRUITS of the Spirit. A tree that does not bear fruit is cut down. We can tell ourselves we are these 'trees'...but we never grow! And we tell ourselves not to worry, we can turn around and God keeps us on it. Sure...for how long...the parable says 3 years. One fine day we may just find ourselves sitting by the roadside weeping.
The Scripture says this is a R-A-C-E.....STRIVE TO ENTER BY THE NARROW GATE.
@Youngsamsonful Yea,run the race to win,but how?If one does much for the sake of God,does he not only do it for God but also for the reward?Personal interest can be a disqualifier.What I'm saying is,it's hard for one to even know his or her own motives.We are very good at hiding things from ourselves and others.We can hide nothing from God.We must therefore be very careful to know our deeds and our motives are righteous.
@Youngsamsonful And you are the one misrepresenting what we actually believe. We believe (those that biblically accept OSAS) that when God saves a sinner, He gives them a new heart. One that actually longs to do His will by the power of His Spirit. OSAS is NOT some kind of license to sin; for only those who repent will not perish and there is a holiness without no one will see the Lord. This is why Paul tells us to 'test ourselves to see whether or not we're in the faith' (2 Corinthians 13:5).
@Youngsamsonful Again, those who are saved are those who believe, repent, and persevere in faith til the end. There should be no disagreement between us on that. Secondly, Jesus tells His disciples to rejoice that their names are written in heaven; and those who are a part of the church have their's written as well [Heb. 12:23] (which shows that it is possible to know if your own name is written there). Also, you quote Jesus' words in Matt. 22:14; but try reading the context it was given in...
@Youngsamsonful ...You could have easily likewise quoted Paul's words in (Romans 8:30) which states "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." [which again shows that our redemption is all God's doing] or do you not believe Paul when said God works all things out for the good of those who love Him (Rom. 8:28)???
@xWhiteLightning You're going in circles...I already said if you already KNOW your name is in the book (therefore predestined to be saved), there's no need to argue further. BUT...do you know? You don't.
@Youngsamsonful The reason I argue further is to show that your belief; that being a true and genuine born-again Christian can lose their salvation, is not Scriptural. Secondly, I have faith that my name is in that Book, and I KNOW that the one who will preserve me and guards me through faith will never cast me away. This is why I can KNOW I have eternal life [which all those who are written in the Book have] (1 John 5:13), and I can rejoice as Jesus said to (Luke 10:20).
@xWhiteLightning I have something to ask you. You have faith that your name is in that book. So how about those who cast out demons in the name of Jesus? Do you think they do not have the faith that their names are also in the book? Otherwise why would they even dare to approach Jesus to ask Him the question?
@Youngsamsonful If what you’re alluding to by your question is Matt. 7:22, then yes, these people on that Day do think their names have been written in the Book; (but it is not based on faith in the Son of God, but rather in their own works and self-righteousness.) They have trusted in their works to earn their way into heaven, rather than trusting in the finished work of Christ; which, and I say again, has "PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). [cont]
@Youngsamsonful Those people that trust in their own works for salvation do not know the truth (Prov. 16:25) since it is only by faith we are justified (Rom. 4:5). Now, this text (Matt. 7:21-23)....
@Youngsamsonful ...should prove that what I'm saying to you is true. For again I point out, Jesus said to those in Matt. 7:22 "I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness" [cont]
@Youngsamsonful [cont] yet in (John 10:27-28) Jesus says concerning His sheep that He KNOWS THEM, & He will give them eternal life, & they will never perish.
@Youngsamsonful The problem I think you seem to have is that you assume our "working out our salvation" is something man does by his own will;but rather Paul clearly tells us that it is GOD who is ...
@Youngsamsonful ... working in us, not only to work out our salvation; but He even gives us the desire to do so in the first place (verse 13). Also, how am I behaving as one of those Jews??? [cont]
@Youngsamsonful I already answered, and it is yes. The faith that I'm claiming & talking about is the faith that has justified us, through which we have peace with God (Rom. 5:1). [And those who have been justified will also be glorified according to (Rom. 8:30)]...The 'faith' those people have is one that is based on their own works & self-righteousness & not on the finished work of Christ which perfects us.
Also, I asked my question concerning spiritual fruit first. When will you answer it???
@xWhiteLightning Ask again and I shall answer, I could have missed it.
So you claim that same faith as these people who cast out demons in Jesus name? But do you know what happened to these people? They were rejects...according to Jesus. So, what makes you think you're BETTER?
@Youngsamsonful They were rejects because Jesus made it clear that they were not of His flock and because they were lawless individuals. It's sort of like what Paul said in (Titus 1:16) "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." Also, I am by no means saying I am better than any of them. I deserve that kind of condemnation just as much as anyone else in this world. The only difference is...
@xWhiteLightning "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works." - So 'works' is required? I thought you said once saved always saved...why work?
@Youngsamsonful Once saved always saved does NOT teach that one must work for salvation nor do we work to maintain it. Salvation is the free gift of God apart from works (Eph. 2:8); yet Paul ...
@Youngsamsonful ... then goes on to say in verse 10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." So you see, [cont]
@Youngsamsonful [cont] our good works are a result of being saved, it is not a means to it. Also, (James 2:17) even tells us 'faith without works is dead.'
@Youngsamsonful ...I set my faith & confidence, not in myself & what I've accomplished, but rather in the atoning work of Christ on my behalf. And this faith excludes any kind of boasting on my part.
@Youngsamsonful Because demon possessions & exorcisms were not rare before and during the times of Christ. The power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the 12 apostles, among ...
@xWhiteLightning You're avoiding the question and indirectly claiming that these people cast out demons without faith. How is that even scripturally sound?
@Youngsamsonful Jesus granted the authority to cast out demons to Judas (read Matt. 10:5-8); yet Jesus also referred to him as a devil (John 6:70). I also showed you other places in Scripture where people who were not associated with Jesus or His followers casted out demons in His name (i.e. Luke 9:49). If what you're equating casting out demons to, as being that individual is saved, then how was Judas lost then (according to John 17:12)???
@Youngsamsonful I'm using Judas as an example to prove my point: That being in some cases, the one who cast out demons is not automatically qualified as a born-again believe in the faith.
I mean, if Judas really did have "the faith" (that being he truly knew Jesus and was Jesus' sheep [John 10:14]), then YOU must answer the question as to WHY Jesus said "I NEVER knew you" and why did he perish (since Jesus' true sheep will never perish)? You have yet to answer this objection.
@Youngsamsonful ... whom Judas was, who had the same power as the rest; but even to some who did not follow Him or His disciples (Mark 9:38), & some did this in the name of Jesus, [cont]
@Youngsamsonful [cont] who do not appear to have any true faith in Him, and knowledge of Him, as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva,(Acts 19:13).
@Youngsamsonful Also, the question I asked was can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away, and if so WHERE does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or, is it not only those who have no fruit
@Youngsamsonful My point exactly. You say it is possible that a Christian (someone who bears fruit) can be cast out and thrown into hell in the end. Yet Jesus tells us that it is ONLY those who have NO FRUIT (no evidence of salvation), that are cast away; and those who do produce fruit, He prunes and causes them to bear more (John 15:2). Nowhere in Scripture do we find the one who bears fruit ever being cast out, and the reason for that is because that person is eternally secured by the Father.
@xWhiteLightning God sees who is saved and He alone is able to say these are kept till the end, not us. WE are in no position to conveniently assume we are one of these.
We repent, baptized ourselves unto Him and REMAIN in Him keeping ourselves sanctified to the END...deemed fit for redemption.
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
@Youngsamsonful So is it your assertion that God does in fact eternally secure those that belong to Him (as it is written in John 6:39; Eph. 4:30); but we(Christians) cannot say for certain ....
@xWhiteLightning Paul said "predestined"...isn't that the position I have been deliberating on? If you already KNOW your name is in it, this discussion is of no purpose.
@Youngsamsonful Here we go again...Okay these were my exact words in a comment from 4 days ago dealing with what you just said. I said that "I have FAITH that my name is in that Book, and I KNOW that the one who will preserve me and guards me through faith will never cast me away." Remember, that faith is the assurance of things hoped for; therefore I have faith that I am eternally secure in Christ.
Also, the purpose of this discussion is to show you what the Bible actually says concerning OSAS.
@Youngsamsonful Finally, I'm going to ask you again. Is it or is it not your position that God has in fact eternally secured those that belong to Him, but we(Christians) cannot say for certain we have been granted everlasting life until the very end of our life??
@xWhiteLightning Why ask the obvious? Can you see the Book of the Living?
I win because I work on it or I work on it therefore I win? Is not a thousand years a day to God? Are not His chosen known by Him before they were born? Because God says "I know whom I have chosen and will see them to the end", does a man therefore say I have obtained that which has been promised?
The folly of man in assuming foreknowledge is as sure as the coming and going of the wind.
@Youngsamsonful So can one KNOW whether they have been given everlasting life before they see death; or is man's salvation only known by God and Him alone??
@xWhiteLightning Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The Book of Life is now CLOSED. Wait for it to open. Until then, strive for the upward call and don't look back.
@Youngsamsonful ...of the Spirit, [which is synonymous to have no evidence of a true repentance towards God], that are ultimately thrown into the fire?
@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire; (which is what the Bible actually presents as true).
@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire; (which is what the Bible actually presents as true).
@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire, [which is what the Bible actually presents as true].
@Youngsamsonful Finally, you're the one assuming that a person who bears fruit of the spirit, can be cut off from Christ.Show me one place where Jesus says this. It is only those who do NOT bear fruit (which means they have no evidence of a new heart),that are thrown away.
Also, if it is true that God works all things out for the good of those who love Him, wouldn't He also put His Spirit into us and cause us to walk His statues and be careful to obey His rules? as it is written in (Ezek. 36:27)
Our Eternal Salvation is SEALED by the Holy Spirit! God does all the saving and He makes all the pertinent changes in us. We don't 'do' anything to get saved but, BELIEVE on Christ. We cannot do anything to lose our Salvation, unless we no longer believe. We must persevere in our Faith!
Perhaps, if a person decides to not want to be a Christian any longer and renounces Christ, maybe God will give them their hearts desire? But, they didn't "lose" their Salvation.. they consciously threw it away.
If you persist in sin..the chances of you being saved to begin with is null and void! If you truly got saved you will not be able to walk away from God or live your life as you please..Being saved means you get it..and once you truly get it..you work at living for God and turning from your sin..Now we still sin DAILY but we repent and do our best through Christ to no longer live like old us because we kill that daily..
@luvngod1st When we get saved, God saved us while we were still in our sin. Right after we get saved, we are still in our sin. Biblical repentance is having a change of mind.. toward God and sin. Once we are born-again we still have the old nature. Aspects of that may or may not change with time, depending on ones walk with Christ. What is "new" is our spirit.. position spiritually. We're still sinners. All 'works' after we're saved have to do with our reward. Not salvation.
Once saved always saved? - According to Jesus, its a big N-O.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
@Youngsamsonful Which version of the Bible are you quoting from? Certainly not the KJV.. which uses the word "abide"
Abide - : to wait for : await
2
a : to endure without yielding : withstand b : to bear patiently : tolerate
3
: to accept without objection.
If a person is really saved, they are saved and their salvation is eternal and secure.. sealed by the Holy Spirit. So, if a person is a believer and remains so.. they cannot lose their salvation. Blessed assurance :-)
A person who claims to be of the light yet does not walk in the light...and worse claim his/her name is written in the book of the Living after being 'born again' (whatever that means to them) and therefore cannot lose his/her Salvation is...not just a Liar, but also deluded.
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
The same problem the Jews had when Jesus arrived and they said "Is not Abraham our Father?!" Yet Jesus reply to them was "If Abraham were your father, you would do the same works that Abraham did!"...they assume sonship under the covenant by way of descendan-'cy'. Yet they did not have a part at all in the covenant. Jesus said their father was the Devil!
The key is in abidance of truth, and truth is a WAY OF LIFE. Not an end.
Did you earn salvation by something you did (be careful here, or we'll see that you believe in works-righteousness!) ? If not, then why would you lose salvation by FAILING to do something? You never deserved it in the first place. It says in Jonah "Salvation belongs to the Lord"... and Jesus said that He's not going to lose even one who the Father has given Him.
Was not Paul an apostle? Yet what did he say? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED ! So how can anyone even think that they cannot lose their Salvation? The last words were "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
You cant lose salvation, but that's presupposing you have it to begin with. Scripture teaches that to be saved we must believe in Jesus, but few look deeper to discover how we know that we believe. 1John gives us some guidelines to examine ourselves to make sure we're in the faith.
This is a false teaching which deceives many. Hebrews 10:26......."Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins". Matthew 7:22-23......"On judgment day many will say to me, Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name. But I will reply, I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws."
@paddykayable Here's another verse to consider: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." (1 John 3:9)
If you can't keep on sinning, then it follows that you can't lose your salvation, because salvation is by faith, and for you to continue in faithlessness would be a sin. So there you go.
@cadmus98 1 John 3:9 is what is expected of us but many of us dont.Its partly becos people hav been deceived that once they accept Jesus then regardless of the kind of life they lead, they will go to Heaven.
@paddykayable If you're a born-again Christian, you *cannot* keep on sinning, is what the verse says. So no, you cannot therefore lose your salvation, if you are a born-again Christian.
Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
The Bible cannot be clearer than this. Salvation is FREE, but if you abuse it...then its gone and you can continue deluding yourselves that you'll be saved. " Matthew 7:23 ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
@Youngsamsonful "Salvation is FREE, but if you abuse it...then its gone"
Even if you were correct, that's a non-issue because a born-again Christian would not do such a thing anyway! The Bible says: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
Therefore: If you can't keep on sinning, then it follows that you can't lose your salvation, because it would require a sin of faithless to lose salvation.
@cadmus98 The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The one who perseveres to the end shall receive the crown. Many called, few are chosen. Are these all not born again? They certainly are, but they gave up before the end. Jesus said to "count the costs" before building.
You're right, no born-again christian will wilfully sin..."touch nothing unclean and I shall welcome you". But how many will remain in Him? Will He find faith when He returns?
@Youngsamsonful "no born-again christian will willfully sin"
The verse is saying that a born-again person cannot continue in sin. Jesus says something similar: the good tree cannot produce bad fruit. So therefore you cannot lose your salvation.
@cadmus98 Was not Paul an apostle? Yet what did he say? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED. Yet, is he not a born-again christian?
The last words were "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
@Youngsamsonful And what does Paul then say right after this in verse 13, "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Paul also says in the same letter (Phil. 1:6) "...He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ."
In 1 Cor. 9:27 Paul could have simply been referring to, not a fear of losing salvation, but forfeiting the divine blessings and rewards he otherwise would receive (a theme he earlier addresses in 1 Cor. 3:10-15).
@Youngsamsonful I completely agree with you, but you want to know what else John had to say in his epistle which specifically deals with apostasy...Read (1 John 2:19) "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So you see, those who walk in light and abide in Christ are promised eternal life, and those who go out from this faith were never truly with us.
@xWhiteLightning No one knows whose names are in the Book of the Living. If one can look into it and tell us, then perhaps we can agree that once saved is always saved, because God will keep those who are His.
But are we saved yet? Is the goal obtained? No. Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Until we reach the end...we cannot say "it is finished"
@Youngsamsonful Actually it is possible to know if you're own name is written in the Book of Life. Jesus tells us to rejoice because of this (Luke 10:20), the writer of the Hebrews alludes to it (Heb. 12:23), and this is why John wrote his first epistle; so that those who believe "may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). Also, God does keep those who are His (according to John 10:27-28) and He will lose none of them, but raise them up on the last day (John 6:39). [cont]
@Youngsamsonful Secondly, Christ has "saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). In Philippians 3:12, Paul is talking about how he has not yet obtained the resurrection from the dead nor has he obtained perfection, but he does press on to make it his own. This is a common theme throughout Paul's letters; which is that ultimate salvation is dependent on perseverance in faith. A faith which Paul believes God graciously preserves and sustains within us.
@Youngsamsonful Also, Christ is the one who said "it is finished" on our behalf. Now what does this mean for the believer. It means that "for by a single offering he has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). This text should clearly demonstrates that a born-again believer is eternally secure; and the way I see it, is if you reject this doctrine, your rejecting with Scripture likewise proclaims to be true.
@Youngsamsonful And I agree with all three of those statements. 1) Christ is the true vine and those who do not abide in Him are thrown away (because they do NOT bear fruit [John 15:2]); but those who do abide in Him, He likewise abides in that same person and he it is that bears much fruit (John 15:5). Bearing fruit is the evidence that one has been saved. Read Jesus' parable concerning the sower. It is only the seed that bears fruit in the end, not the joyful ones that last for a little while,
@Youngsamsonful [cont] and then depart. This only demonstrates that what John said in his first epistle is actually true. That "they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you asserting, (in quoting Hebrews 10:26), that a Christian must be sinless, or else they're eternally condemned. If so, what about the willful...
@Youngsamsonful ...sins of people like David (when he committed adultery and had a man killed) and Moses when he disobeyed God in the wilderness (which lead to his prevention in the promised land), etc. The way I see it, is if Jesus commanded us to forgive each other over and over again (Matt. 18:21-22), then God according to His love and mercy towards us, He would forgive us even greater debts. Just as it is written in (1 John 2:1)
@xWhiteLightning "They went out from us"...but before they went out they were just like you and me. Or do you think you will never go out? Because God will not let you out - implying God does not give you free will. Or because you are so confident of yourself that you will not go out - implying that you trust in yourself more than in God.
Which is which? Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal...
@Youngsamsonful It says "disqualified for the prize", not "disqualified for salvation". Those are different things.
That's why Paul also says, among other things, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Your spin on what Paul meant leads to contradictions. Fortunately, you are wrong.
@cadmus98 You actually believe that a man can persist in sinning and yet remain saved?
John said "“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Pharisees reborn goes to heaven?
1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. Is this "anyone" somebody else or a brethren?
@cadmus98 Jesus came to save those who are sick of evil and thirst for righteousness. Not people who claim convenient repentance for fear of going to hell. Baptized or not, these people WILL go to hell. "REPENT & Be Baptised"....Not "Persist & Be Baptised"
Without true repentance, the heart remains dead...a heart of stone has no life. Without life where is the re-birth? With true repentance, the man will naturally strive for righteousness, otherwise its all self delusion.
@Youngsamsonful Christ came to save WHOSOEVER desired to be saved. And He did save whosoever believed on Him :-)
"True" Biblical repentance is having a change of mind toward God and sin. Read about Paul (the Chief of sinners) in Romans 7:15-25.
It is unnatural for man to strive for righteousness. Thats why Christ lived a perfectly sinless life and fulfilled the Law.. died and was resurrected in so that we could be righteous in Him.
@cadmus98 A born-again christian worships God through Jesus Christ.
But who worships God? John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Truth & Spirit. If you have these in you, you are born again. Otherwise, all's vain and self-delusion. Why else are there many who THINKS they are saved on judgement day, yet Jesus tells them He never knew them?
@Youngsamsonful The reason why people (those in Matt. 7:22-23) think they are saved, is because man's heart is deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9). They practiced lawlessness without repentance, and so they perished. But notice what Jesus says; He said "I NEVER knew you", yet in (John 10:14) Jesus says concerning His sheep "I know My own and they know Me" If a sheep of Christ's can lose their salvation, even though it is said they'll be given eternal life and will never perish, why then doesn't Jesus say
@Youngsamsonful [cont] in Matt. 7:23, 'I once knew you, then I forgot about you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'...but rather Jesus says to those who are cast away "I never knew you" which would show that they were never His sheep (saved) to begin with.
@xWhiteLightning Was Paul one of these sheep? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED ! "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
Many say their names are written, yet they know not that the fire is waiting for them.
@Youngsamsonful Yes Paul was one of the sheep, and Jesus said that His sheep will be given eternal life and will NEVER perish, and no one is able to snatch them out of His hand (John 10:27). If one of Jesus' sheep end up perishing, that would make Jesus' promise of eternal life to them only temporal, rather than it being everlasting. For salvation is not dependent upon us holding onto God, but rather it is God holding onto us. This is evident in Jesus' words in John 6:37;39 as well.
@Youngsamsonful Again, read the context in 1 Cor. 9:27;where Paul talks about runners running a race for a perishable prize, while we're to run for an imperishable one.I already brought up that Paul made reference to such rewards earlier in 1 Cor. 3:10-15, where it is possible that their efforts may be burnt up & they suffer loss (disqualified from the prize), yet he himself will be saved (1 Cor. 3:15) [notice that salvation is never questioned since there is no condemnation for those in Christ]
@Youngsamsonful Also, in Philippians 2: yes Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling; then he goes on to say "For it is GOD WORKING IN YOU, both to WILL AND TO WORK for His good pleasure." Notice who Paul says is doing the working in us; notice also who he says gives us the will/desire to do it in the first place. For the Bible teaches that God has not only given us (believers) His Spirit, but has sealed us with it, who is the GUARANTEE our of inheritance (Eph. 1:11;13-14).
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Truthfully speaking because one can in fact go to hell against God's will, one is truly never separated from God even in hell. Due to this fact this is what makes hell,hell, always being in the love of one that sinners hate. Holy Scripture asks what can separate us from the love of God? Our will to love our sin and hate God. Therefore not being able to be separated from the love of God.
I am glad I have studied the church fathers and don't believe this anymore. The early church never taught predestination or U.E.S. Just read Ignatious of Antioch St.Peters disciple. Read his homoly on life after death. Yes you can in fact go to hell against Gods will. The Holy Scripture says it is not Gods will any should perish. However in fact is some do, therefore against Gods will.
Do not spit in Jesus face by telling him his grace is not enough and that your works need to be added to his work on the cross. That's blasphemy from the devil! Lordship salvation is a quick trip to hell, for Pharisees who preach that damnable doctrine. Romans 4:5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2nd Corinthians 11:3). Salvation is simple, believe Jesus Christ is Lord and savior and he died and shed his precious blood for your sin and that he is now seated next to the Father in Heaven making intersession for you than you are truly saved. Repentance from sin is so that you stay in fellowship with God on earth, not salvation.
The story of the 10 virgins and the wedding feast. There were 10 virgins (notice they are were virgins) 5 had their lamps full of oil (think of oil as relationship with God) and 5 had their lamps run dry. When the King came back, the 5 virgins that had their oil full, were allowed into the Great Wedding feast. The 5 without oil were not allowed.
All 10 were virgins (believers) but 5 of them had let their oil run dry and their fire burn out. They were not allowed in.
@WilliamHunterStewart Too deep for most bro. But you're on point. All these verses correctly support our assurance in salvation. But if we look at the key words: "you that believe", "our inheritance", "those who are in Christ", "the simplicity that is in Christ", " faith is credited as righteousness". What do all these verses have in common? There is a relationship/connection with Christ. It's a matter of words vs. actions (not works). Are your words and actions consistent? Consider 1 John1:6.
Yes, you can "lose" your salvation. A covenant is a conditional promise that God will not break. We, however, can break it. That is why there are so many warnings in the Bible against falling away. Jesus clearly said that if you do not forgive, your sin(s) will not be forgiven. Now, if your sins are not forgiven - how will you enter into Heaven? Jesus also said that if you call your brother a fool, you are in danger of the fire of hell. He was talking to "saved" people - not unsaved.
@edadan2009 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." —1st John 5:13
As I already said - a covenant is a CONDITIONAL agreement. How do you discount so many warnings in the Bible? Do you really believe that God put those in His Word for "unsaved" people? The verses that you quote are God's promise of salvation to us who believe (IF) we continue to love, trust and obey Him. "Eternal security" is a doctrine of demons that has deceived millions of people. I hope that you will not be one of them.
@edadan2009 Now ask yourself, do you think those who genuinely believe in the first place are going to reject love,trust and obedience. If they do they were not saved in the first place, you can't truly believe in God and "live" his holy word than all of a sudden decide "you know what I had enough, I'm done". The truth was never in them, sorry my brother but you can't maintain your own salvation. God bless
Having been in the baptist church for almost 20 years, I've heard all this before - "they were never saved in the first place". How do you know who is saved? You have believed the lies of men over the Word of God. A covenant is NOT a guarantee of your salvation. The gift of salvation is offered for free while we are still sinners. It's not that God takes the gift away - it's us who give it back. Hence, the MANY warnings against falling away. Please believe what God says.
@edadan2009 Lol it really doesn't matter in the end. Saved once, Saved conditional, my point is God knows who is seated in Heavenly places with him from the beginning of time, the fact that you seem to harp on this so much has put a hindrance on your walk. If you can't find peace in your(people in general) walk that surpasseth all understanding than you are not fully walking with God. Make sure are spreading the Word not bondage. God bless ;)
Your sounding like a Calvinist who believes in predestination. For sure God knows who will be saved, but that is not in his hands. He has provided salvation for all we choose whether or not to embrace it. Be careful because it does matter in the end, the end is all that matters.
@AA30316 What are you talking about? Calvinism believes only those chosen by God go to Heaven, where in there did I even hint to that? If Jesus Christ is your Lord and savior you are saved end of discussion! The both of you are more than welcome to continue to harp back and forth on what doctrine is false or not, I for one am going to continue the rest my life living for the kingdom (living the word, learning the word, and spreading the word). Have a blessed life fellow servant.
It's important because so many people (especially Baptists) say a prayer, get baptized and then continue to live in sin because they believe they now have a guarantee of salvation. So, it really does matter. And, although it often times makes me unpopular, I want people to know the truth. The apostle Paul did the same thing - he's the one who penned most of these warnings to the church. So, if you're going to teach others - teach them God's Word - not man's word.
@edadan2009 "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" —Ephesians 1:13,14
@edadan2009 Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
In other words if you are truly saved(past present and future) then no you can't lose your salvation, If that was the case we both are in BIG trouble, if you say otherwise than you might be guilty of self righteousness. God bless ;)
I really do appreciate everyone's comments. I know u say them out of love and concern. But I am past the point of no return... My family comforts themselves by convincing each other that if I truly believed once, then I won't go to hell when I die. I hate seeing them hurt and angry, but I simply cannot live a lie. It is not ME hurting them, it's RELIGION. I wish I could convince them that no such place exists, but they are wrapped up in this delusion and it's the saddest thing I've ever seen.
@JustOneGodFurther i went through something similar (maybe not as long as your season, but i went through it nonetheless) and i still experience doubt sometimes. but you know what makes these seasons worth going through them? i come back TEN TIMES STRONGER in my Faith. so if my periods of doubt are only a couple days, and yours lasted for several years (?), just IMAGINE how much stronger yours will be when you come back to Him!!!!!!!
@JustOneGodFurther if you can deny that there is a God with ALL your heart, then you are not saved.
judging from your comments and the fact that you are trying to "help someone keep their faith" let's me know that you were at once truly a believer, but you are just going through a season of doubt. (obviously, idk how long you have been/ will be going through this period, but: ) i do know that there is potential to rededicate your life to Him and serve Him even MORE so.
If you are truly saved, and you have truly experienced God, you cannot and will not lose your salvation. Once saved always saved. But if you argue against my statement, let me ask you: Did you really experience God? or were you putting on an act?
It only took him 30 seconds to contradict himself. Since when is a gift meant to be something you deserve? There very definition of a "gift" implies that it is something given that is undeserved. It's a gift! Not something that is earned!
Becoming a Christian then abandoning God by living in sin, is basically becoming a son of perdition, tell me then do you believe Judas kept his salvation, he was a follower of Christ ( one day), he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide. This non-biblical idea of once saved always saved no matter what, is just as bad as spreading the catholic imagination of a "purgatory", both have the same effect, leading people to become complacent in their good fight, and not doing all to stand.
@AA30316 "Becoming a Christian then abandoning God by living in sin" No that is proof that you only THOUGHT you became a Christian.
Remeber the quote? "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." ("not really of us", "would have remained ", and "not of us" in Greek are all rendered in the indicative meaning a simple statement of fact.
My sentiments exactly. And, I was raised Catholic, then became atheist, then became Baptist, then got born-again and now a memeber of a Bible believing non-denominational church.
You CAN not lose your salvation BUT you CAN surrender it and walk away. You have free will. Many scriptures WARN of leaving the Faith. You cant leave what you never had to begin with. God will not be mocked. You cannot continually Sin and think I am saved. The wages of Sin is Death. Do not be deceived. You MUST repent.
HopeLives2012 17 hours ago
You are secure in Christ... IF you remain in Christ.
bobo577 22 hours ago
If this is true, then how does he make sense of the parable of the ten virgins, also, the wise and unwise stewards?
vbfl920 1 day ago
I have gotten away from my initial intent. The intent of my comments was to have us genuinely not simplify another mystery of the Gospel so much at the risk of leading anybody astray. Clarifying and denouncing some poor practices is one thing, however this is not about actions/practices, it is a question of the heart and only God knows the heart. May God help us all.
dajukbox 2 days ago
Don't NEGATE the cross what Jesus did for all of us. Anything else cheapen's his grace. Sinnless perfection ,Replacement theology is a lie from the devil himself. There is only one Gospel that saves It's the one that God mentions in scripture time and time and time and time again all through out his holy word. Know man can pluck you from the Fathers hand, u know the scripture.
MrPsalm53 3 days ago
@MrPsalm53 I hope this could end, because instead of going back and forth, on a question as such we should focus on our connection to God, each and every one of us. May the Holy spirit settle this in each and every one of our hearts. Peter and Paul disagreed on a more important aspect of the Gospel for quite some times, so let us each focus on God purpose, vision for ourselves.
dajukbox 2 days ago
If one is honestly born again saved with God, and only God knows the heart and who is saved or not, lest anyone should judge. If you believe in conditional salvation or u could lose your salvation, U MAKE GOD OUT TO BE A LIAR. We are eternally secure our destination is sure, we can be chastised if we are backslidden we can even lose rewards at the bemis seat of the believer which is huge in the scop of eternity. Never lose our salvation, some will enter heaven by the SKIN OF THEIR TEETH.
MrPsalm53 3 days ago
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Salvation starts with the confession/regnonition of our sinful nature, profession of Christ as Lord, belief in His resurected works. We should agree on that and also on the true fact that we do not work for our salvation, but we still have to work through it (Phil. 2:12 ). Let us love God with all oour being, Love our neighbor as ourselves and we can only grow in God.
dajukbox 1 week ago
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dajukbox 1 week ago
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dajukbox 1 week ago
Am I saved? I truly believe so, not because I am special but Because God says he will not deny me as long as I genuinely make him my everything. But I think we are making the mistake of looking around and finding out who else other than ourselves is saved. Our fruits are essentiel in confirming our salvation but the Human eyes only sees actions not motives/ not the heart. How about leaving the Salvation in the hands of the only one who Knows for sure: GOD! and not get into this bable?
dajukbox 1 week ago
Does not salvation start with a personal decision? if yes then once can change his mind, no? Faith is a gift, Salvation is a gift and there are free but do not them take our will to? About God not letting us go, I believe He will let anyone who wishes to go either by a decision or through actions. I think it is another mystery that should not received a yes or no answer, but that is just me. I'm not concerned about being right or wrong. May God continue to help us all.
dajukbox 1 week ago
@dajukbox Eternal Secuirity is true,John 5:24 says it.Also see Ephesians 2:8-10 ,Salvation has nothing to do with what we accomplish,it is about what Christ did.
MrUrosSrb 4 days ago
@dajukbox And also see Romans 8:38-39 and Timothy 2:13.Its pure eternal security.
MrUrosSrb 4 days ago
Can Jesus lose His salvation? We have been crucified with Christ. Can anyone get uncrucified? The teaching that anyone could lose their salvation is absolutely pathetic. Total nonsense.
UniversalismProven 1 week ago
@UniversalismProven A lot of newly reborn christians have these kind of doubts. Once theyve walked with God for a while they begin to realize we are truly his children and nothing can change that. Satan loves to put doubts in our head.
zestydude87 4 days ago
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dajukbox 3 days ago
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dajukbox 3 days ago
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@zestydude87 I truly believe I now have a better understanding, Salvation is not given instantly, it is obtained through a life long commitment, we know not by works .. Salvation is/will be finalized on judgement day. Christ acceptance is just a beginning, We barely know our own heart how could any of us here claim that he will always love Christ? Let us just thrive to do it daily and I think that what truly expected of us.
dajukbox 3 days ago
losing your salvation isnt equal to losing your keys.the only way to "lose" your salvation, is to curse God and completely turn away and reject Him.thats what I believe.
ATTtheoneandonly 1 week ago
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Once saved always saved? Isnt want sends people to Hell putinng the love of something else before the love of God? Boils down maybe to the sincerity of their conversion?
johhnycarlos 2 weeks ago
A coach tells his young team members, "work hard and you’ll win. I already know which of you will be victorious because I know your potentials and I will make sure you achieve it."
When the coach left, a strange man in black came forth and says “Your coach already knows which of you will win, so no matter what you do from now on you are confirmed victors!”.
And the lazy ones goes partying, while the rest no longer have practice partners.
Who is that strange man, and what's his purpose?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
The same person who said "Thou shalt not surely die"
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
So,I'm saved no matter what.Once saved,always saved.That's a relief.Now I can get a bottle of scotch,a bag of dope and go to the topless bar,just like I did before I was saved.If my liver gives out or I kill someone in a drunken car accident or if I get a divorce because of my infidelity.No problemo,I'm saved baby.Praise the lord.
lifeseeker51 2 weeks ago
@lifeseeker51 First of all.. God knows our Hearts.. If we are truly saved and keep His try hard to Follow Him and Keep His commandments, Those things probably wouldn't happen (Except Divorce, that is a different story.). What does Revelations say about the Lukewarm Christian?... Oh, that they will be spewed from His mouth. It is about Repentance, or, turning your life around. Are you really saved if you continue doing these things? Yes, by Grace we are forgiven. God knows our hearts.
TH3B3A57 2 weeks ago
@TH3B3A57 Don't get me wrong I'm aware that there are no perfect Christians,but one should always be aware of one's actions,even one's thoughts.So, is it possible for one to lose one's salvation? Definately.We all still have the option/choice of abandoning our faith/walk in Jesus.One can be an honest to God believer and still turn away for a variety of reasons.
lifeseeker51 2 weeks ago
@lifeseeker51 I agree. I'm don't know about the debated subject. I just know that I am saved, and I will stay that way. Though, once saved, we are blessed with the Holy Spirit which convicts us when we do wrong. Yes you can willfully turn. But, Somehow God always brings them back. He has for me, multiple times. Salvation can't be lost, because it is a free gift. But It can be thrown away for those who WANT to. There is a combination of free will and Pre destination. He already knows the future
TH3B3A57 2 weeks ago
@TH3B3A57 I'll agree,it's complicated.Here a while back I was witnessing to someone that had obviously at least been a student of scripture.I kept getting this mental image of Jesus being tempted by satan through scripture.Finally after I don't know how many rounds I went to Jesus in prayer.Is there any point in this case,was my question.His answer was Hebrews 6,4-6. Appearantly,this one had gone to far.
lifeseeker51 2 weeks ago
@lifeseeker51 According to the poster, yeah right. Then heaven will be full of alcoholics and drug addicts with God trying to send them to rehab. See what I mean these people are making a mockery of themselves.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Well, one can go overboard in either direction.Some say"now that you are saved,do what thou wilt,thou art saved".Others say,"you can't do enough to be saved".While one is a licence to sin, the other is an unbearable burdon.I say we are saved by faith and that faith and the love of God is what keeps us on the path.If we come off,we feel it,turn around and get back on.It's a process that requires our participation.
lifeseeker51 2 weeks ago
@lifeseeker51 Ultimately we have to bear FRUITS of the Spirit. A tree that does not bear fruit is cut down. We can tell ourselves we are these 'trees'...but we never grow! And we tell ourselves not to worry, we can turn around and God keeps us on it. Sure...for how long...the parable says 3 years. One fine day we may just find ourselves sitting by the roadside weeping.
The Scripture says this is a R-A-C-E.....STRIVE TO ENTER BY THE NARROW GATE.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Yea,run the race to win,but how?If one does much for the sake of God,does he not only do it for God but also for the reward?Personal interest can be a disqualifier.What I'm saying is,it's hard for one to even know his or her own motives.We are very good at hiding things from ourselves and others.We can hide nothing from God.We must therefore be very careful to know our deeds and our motives are righteous.
lifeseeker51 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful And you are the one misrepresenting what we actually believe. We believe (those that biblically accept OSAS) that when God saves a sinner, He gives them a new heart. One that actually longs to do His will by the power of His Spirit. OSAS is NOT some kind of license to sin; for only those who repent will not perish and there is a holiness without no one will see the Lord. This is why Paul tells us to 'test ourselves to see whether or not we're in the faith' (2 Corinthians 13:5).
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning If you believe your name is already in the Book of the Living, there's no argument about whether you believe you will be saved.
You are ASSUMING that because you are called therefore your name is in it.
But that's NOT what Jesus said. Jesus said "Many are called, but few are chosen...strive to enter by the narrow gate".
You can assume all you want, but ultimately if you don't bear fruits of the spirit, don't go blaming God for 'failing' to keep till the end.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Again, those who are saved are those who believe, repent, and persevere in faith til the end. There should be no disagreement between us on that. Secondly, Jesus tells His disciples to rejoice that their names are written in heaven; and those who are a part of the church have their's written as well [Heb. 12:23] (which shows that it is possible to know if your own name is written there). Also, you quote Jesus' words in Matt. 22:14; but try reading the context it was given in...
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful ...You could have easily likewise quoted Paul's words in (Romans 8:30) which states "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." [which again shows that our redemption is all God's doing] or do you not believe Paul when said God works all things out for the good of those who love Him (Rom. 8:28)???
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning You're going in circles...I already said if you already KNOW your name is in the book (therefore predestined to be saved), there's no need to argue further. BUT...do you know? You don't.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful The reason I argue further is to show that your belief; that being a true and genuine born-again Christian can lose their salvation, is not Scriptural. Secondly, I have faith that my name is in that Book, and I KNOW that the one who will preserve me and guards me through faith will never cast me away. This is why I can KNOW I have eternal life [which all those who are written in the Book have] (1 John 5:13), and I can rejoice as Jesus said to (Luke 10:20).
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning I have something to ask you. You have faith that your name is in that book. So how about those who cast out demons in the name of Jesus? Do you think they do not have the faith that their names are also in the book? Otherwise why would they even dare to approach Jesus to ask Him the question?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful If what you’re alluding to by your question is Matt. 7:22, then yes, these people on that Day do think their names have been written in the Book; (but it is not based on faith in the Son of God, but rather in their own works and self-righteousness.) They have trusted in their works to earn their way into heaven, rather than trusting in the finished work of Christ; which, and I say again, has "PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). [cont]
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Those people that trust in their own works for salvation do not know the truth (Prov. 16:25) since it is only by faith we are justified (Rom. 4:5). Now, this text (Matt. 7:21-23)....
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful ...should prove that what I'm saying to you is true. For again I point out, Jesus said to those in Matt. 7:22 "I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness" [cont]
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] yet in (John 10:27-28) Jesus says concerning His sheep that He KNOWS THEM, & He will give them eternal life, & they will never perish.
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning. What is scriptural is that Christians are to WORK out their Salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING.
You're behaving just like the Jews who assumed that just because they are descendants of Abraham they are in the covenant. Jesus mocked at these.
Was not the promise to deliver the Jews out of Pharoah's hands made to the Jews?
- Yet how many made it into Canaan? Very very few.
God will never cast His sheep away...but that's assuming you're even a sheep.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful The problem I think you seem to have is that you assume our "working out our salvation" is something man does by his own will;but rather Paul clearly tells us that it is GOD who is ...
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful ... working in us, not only to work out our salvation; but He even gives us the desire to do so in the first place (verse 13). Also, how am I behaving as one of those Jews??? [cont]
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] I'm not basing my salvation off of my own works now am I? [which it seems you may be doing]
Finally, may you now answer my previous question concerning spiritual fruit?
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning You did not answer my clear questions and you're asking me about a question which you claim to have been asked?
Please answer...Do you think those people who cast out demons in Jesus name lacked faith?...The same faith that you're claiming.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful I already answered, and it is yes. The faith that I'm claiming & talking about is the faith that has justified us, through which we have peace with God (Rom. 5:1). [And those who have been justified will also be glorified according to (Rom. 8:30)]...The 'faith' those people have is one that is based on their own works & self-righteousness & not on the finished work of Christ which perfects us.
Also, I asked my question concerning spiritual fruit first. When will you answer it???
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning Ask again and I shall answer, I could have missed it.
So you claim that same faith as these people who cast out demons in Jesus name? But do you know what happened to these people? They were rejects...according to Jesus. So, what makes you think you're BETTER?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful They were rejects because Jesus made it clear that they were not of His flock and because they were lawless individuals. It's sort of like what Paul said in (Titus 1:16) "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." Also, I am by no means saying I am better than any of them. I deserve that kind of condemnation just as much as anyone else in this world. The only difference is...
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works." - So 'works' is required? I thought you said once saved always saved...why work?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Once saved always saved does NOT teach that one must work for salvation nor do we work to maintain it. Salvation is the free gift of God apart from works (Eph. 2:8); yet Paul ...
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful ... then goes on to say in verse 10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." So you see, [cont]
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] our good works are a result of being saved, it is not a means to it. Also, (James 2:17) even tells us 'faith without works is dead.'
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful ...I set my faith & confidence, not in myself & what I've accomplished, but rather in the atoning work of Christ on my behalf. And this faith excludes any kind of boasting on my part.
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning If these people do not have the faith how could they have cast out the demons in the 1st place?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Because demon possessions & exorcisms were not rare before and during the times of Christ. The power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the 12 apostles, among ...
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@xWhiteLightning You're avoiding the question and indirectly claiming that these people cast out demons without faith. How is that even scripturally sound?
Youngsamsonful 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful Jesus granted the authority to cast out demons to Judas (read Matt. 10:5-8); yet Jesus also referred to him as a devil (John 6:70). I also showed you other places in Scripture where people who were not associated with Jesus or His followers casted out demons in His name (i.e. Luke 9:49). If what you're equating casting out demons to, as being that individual is saved, then how was Judas lost then (according to John 17:12)???
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful I'm using Judas as an example to prove my point: That being in some cases, the one who cast out demons is not automatically qualified as a born-again believe in the faith.
I mean, if Judas really did have "the faith" (that being he truly knew Jesus and was Jesus' sheep [John 10:14]), then YOU must answer the question as to WHY Jesus said "I NEVER knew you" and why did he perish (since Jesus' true sheep will never perish)? You have yet to answer this objection.
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful ... whom Judas was, who had the same power as the rest; but even to some who did not follow Him or His disciples (Mark 9:38), & some did this in the name of Jesus, [cont]
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] who do not appear to have any true faith in Him, and knowledge of Him, as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva,(Acts 19:13).
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful Also, the question I asked was can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away, and if so WHERE does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or, is it not only those who have no fruit
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning why would a tree that bears fruit be cast away by the gardener?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful My point exactly. You say it is possible that a Christian (someone who bears fruit) can be cast out and thrown into hell in the end. Yet Jesus tells us that it is ONLY those who have NO FRUIT (no evidence of salvation), that are cast away; and those who do produce fruit, He prunes and causes them to bear more (John 15:2). Nowhere in Scripture do we find the one who bears fruit ever being cast out, and the reason for that is because that person is eternally secured by the Father.
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@xWhiteLightning God sees who is saved and He alone is able to say these are kept till the end, not us. WE are in no position to conveniently assume we are one of these.
We repent, baptized ourselves unto Him and REMAIN in Him keeping ourselves sanctified to the END...deemed fit for redemption.
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful So is it your assertion that God does in fact eternally secure those that belong to Him (as it is written in John 6:39; Eph. 4:30); but we(Christians) cannot say for certain ....
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful ... we have been granted everlasting life until the very end of our life?
Also, if this is your position, how do you understand Paul's words in (Romans 8:28) and (Rom. 8:30)??
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@xWhiteLightning Paul said "predestined"...isn't that the position I have been deliberating on? If you already KNOW your name is in it, this discussion is of no purpose.
Youngsamsonful 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful Here we go again...Okay these were my exact words in a comment from 4 days ago dealing with what you just said. I said that "I have FAITH that my name is in that Book, and I KNOW that the one who will preserve me and guards me through faith will never cast me away." Remember, that faith is the assurance of things hoped for; therefore I have faith that I am eternally secure in Christ.
Also, the purpose of this discussion is to show you what the Bible actually says concerning OSAS.
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful Finally, I'm going to ask you again. Is it or is it not your position that God has in fact eternally secured those that belong to Him, but we(Christians) cannot say for certain we have been granted everlasting life until the very end of our life??
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@xWhiteLightning Why ask the obvious? Can you see the Book of the Living?
I win because I work on it or I work on it therefore I win? Is not a thousand years a day to God? Are not His chosen known by Him before they were born? Because God says "I know whom I have chosen and will see them to the end", does a man therefore say I have obtained that which has been promised?
The folly of man in assuming foreknowledge is as sure as the coming and going of the wind.
Youngsamsonful 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful So can one KNOW whether they have been given everlasting life before they see death; or is man's salvation only known by God and Him alone??
xWhiteLightning 1 week ago
@xWhiteLightning Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The Book of Life is now CLOSED. Wait for it to open. Until then, strive for the upward call and don't look back.
Youngsamsonful 1 week ago
@Youngsamsonful ...of the Spirit, [which is synonymous to have no evidence of a true repentance towards God], that are ultimately thrown into the fire?
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire; (which is what the Bible actually presents as true).
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
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@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire; (which is what the Bible actually presents as true).
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
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@Youngsamsonful Also, let me ask you this...can a person who bears fruit of the Spirit be cast away from Christ, and if so where does Jesus tell us this is the case?? or is it not those who bear no fruit (which means they have no evidence of ever been saved in the first place) that are thrown in the fire, [which is what the Bible actually presents as true].
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Finally, you're the one assuming that a person who bears fruit of the spirit, can be cut off from Christ.Show me one place where Jesus says this. It is only those who do NOT bear fruit (which means they have no evidence of a new heart),that are thrown away.
Also, if it is true that God works all things out for the good of those who love Him, wouldn't He also put His Spirit into us and cause us to walk His statues and be careful to obey His rules? as it is written in (Ezek. 36:27)
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning You need to read carefully before commenting. That's not what I said.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
Our Eternal Salvation is SEALED by the Holy Spirit! God does all the saving and He makes all the pertinent changes in us. We don't 'do' anything to get saved but, BELIEVE on Christ. We cannot do anything to lose our Salvation, unless we no longer believe. We must persevere in our Faith!
Perhaps, if a person decides to not want to be a Christian any longer and renounces Christ, maybe God will give them their hearts desire? But, they didn't "lose" their Salvation.. they consciously threw it away.
margovallen 2 weeks ago
If you persist in sin..the chances of you being saved to begin with is null and void! If you truly got saved you will not be able to walk away from God or live your life as you please..Being saved means you get it..and once you truly get it..you work at living for God and turning from your sin..Now we still sin DAILY but we repent and do our best through Christ to no longer live like old us because we kill that daily..
luvngod1st 2 weeks ago
@luvngod1st When we get saved, God saved us while we were still in our sin. Right after we get saved, we are still in our sin. Biblical repentance is having a change of mind.. toward God and sin. Once we are born-again we still have the old nature. Aspects of that may or may not change with time, depending on ones walk with Christ. What is "new" is our spirit.. position spiritually. We're still sinners. All 'works' after we're saved have to do with our reward. Not salvation.
margovallen 2 weeks ago
Once saved always saved? - According to Jesus, its a big N-O.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
B-U-R-N-E-D
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Which version of the Bible are you quoting from? Certainly not the KJV.. which uses the word "abide"
Abide - : to wait for : await
2
a : to endure without yielding : withstand b : to bear patiently : tolerate
3
: to accept without objection.
If a person is really saved, they are saved and their salvation is eternal and secure.. sealed by the Holy Spirit. So, if a person is a believer and remains so.. they cannot lose their salvation. Blessed assurance :-)
margovallen 2 weeks ago
A person who claims to be of the light yet does not walk in the light...and worse claim his/her name is written in the book of the Living after being 'born again' (whatever that means to them) and therefore cannot lose his/her Salvation is...not just a Liar, but also deluded.
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
The same problem the Jews had when Jesus arrived and they said "Is not Abraham our Father?!" Yet Jesus reply to them was "If Abraham were your father, you would do the same works that Abraham did!"...they assume sonship under the covenant by way of descendan-'cy'. Yet they did not have a part at all in the covenant. Jesus said their father was the Devil!
The key is in abidance of truth, and truth is a WAY OF LIFE. Not an end.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
Did you earn salvation by something you did (be careful here, or we'll see that you believe in works-righteousness!) ? If not, then why would you lose salvation by FAILING to do something? You never deserved it in the first place. It says in Jonah "Salvation belongs to the Lord"... and Jesus said that He's not going to lose even one who the Father has given Him.
michaelrouten 3 weeks ago
Was not Paul an apostle? Yet what did he say? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED ! So how can anyone even think that they cannot lose their Salvation? The last words were "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
WORK OUT.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
You cant lose salvation, but that's presupposing you have it to begin with. Scripture teaches that to be saved we must believe in Jesus, but few look deeper to discover how we know that we believe. 1John gives us some guidelines to examine ourselves to make sure we're in the faith.
love64x2 3 weeks ago
This is a false teaching which deceives many. Hebrews 10:26......."Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins". Matthew 7:22-23......"On judgment day many will say to me, Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name. But I will reply, I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws."
paddykayable 3 weeks ago
@paddykayable Here's another verse to consider: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." (1 John 3:9)
If you can't keep on sinning, then it follows that you can't lose your salvation, because salvation is by faith, and for you to continue in faithlessness would be a sin. So there you go.
cadmus98 3 weeks ago
@cadmus98 1 John 3:9 is what is expected of us but many of us dont.Its partly becos people hav been deceived that once they accept Jesus then regardless of the kind of life they lead, they will go to Heaven.
paddykayable 3 weeks ago
@paddykayable If you're a born-again Christian, you *cannot* keep on sinning, is what the verse says. So no, you cannot therefore lose your salvation, if you are a born-again Christian.
cadmus98 3 weeks ago
THAT'S SADLY A LIE.
Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
The Bible cannot be clearer than this. Salvation is FREE, but if you abuse it...then its gone and you can continue deluding yourselves that you'll be saved. " Matthew 7:23 ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful "Salvation is FREE, but if you abuse it...then its gone"
Even if you were correct, that's a non-issue because a born-again Christian would not do such a thing anyway! The Bible says: "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
Therefore: If you can't keep on sinning, then it follows that you can't lose your salvation, because it would require a sin of faithless to lose salvation.
cadmus98 3 weeks ago
@cadmus98 The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The one who perseveres to the end shall receive the crown. Many called, few are chosen. Are these all not born again? They certainly are, but they gave up before the end. Jesus said to "count the costs" before building.
You're right, no born-again christian will wilfully sin..."touch nothing unclean and I shall welcome you". But how many will remain in Him? Will He find faith when He returns?
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful "no born-again christian will willfully sin"
The verse is saying that a born-again person cannot continue in sin. Jesus says something similar: the good tree cannot produce bad fruit. So therefore you cannot lose your salvation.
cadmus98 3 weeks ago
@cadmus98 Was not Paul an apostle? Yet what did he say? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED. Yet, is he not a born-again christian?
The last words were "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful And what does Paul then say right after this in verse 13, "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Paul also says in the same letter (Phil. 1:6) "...He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ."
In 1 Cor. 9:27 Paul could have simply been referring to, not a fear of losing salvation, but forfeiting the divine blessings and rewards he otherwise would receive (a theme he earlier addresses in 1 Cor. 3:10-15).
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning, Anyone who says he is of the light but walks not in the light is a LIAR.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful I completely agree with you, but you want to know what else John had to say in his epistle which specifically deals with apostasy...Read (1 John 2:19) "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So you see, those who walk in light and abide in Christ are promised eternal life, and those who go out from this faith were never truly with us.
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning No one knows whose names are in the Book of the Living. If one can look into it and tell us, then perhaps we can agree that once saved is always saved, because God will keep those who are His.
But are we saved yet? Is the goal obtained? No. Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Until we reach the end...we cannot say "it is finished"
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Actually it is possible to know if you're own name is written in the Book of Life. Jesus tells us to rejoice because of this (Luke 10:20), the writer of the Hebrews alludes to it (Heb. 12:23), and this is why John wrote his first epistle; so that those who believe "may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). Also, God does keep those who are His (according to John 10:27-28) and He will lose none of them, but raise them up on the last day (John 6:39). [cont]
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Secondly, Christ has "saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). In Philippians 3:12, Paul is talking about how he has not yet obtained the resurrection from the dead nor has he obtained perfection, but he does press on to make it his own. This is a common theme throughout Paul's letters; which is that ultimate salvation is dependent on perseverance in faith. A faith which Paul believes God graciously preserves and sustains within us.
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Also, Christ is the one who said "it is finished" on our behalf. Now what does this mean for the believer. It means that "for by a single offering he has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). This text should clearly demonstrates that a born-again believer is eternally secure; and the way I see it, is if you reject this doctrine, your rejecting with Scripture likewise proclaims to be true.
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning The Salvation Grace is perfect in Christ, we're not doubting that. We're saying what Jesus said and that is.
1 - If anyone does not abide in Christ the person has no life
2 - If anyone does not remain in Christ the person is burned
3 - If anyone does not bear fruit he/she will be chopped down
All above can be supported with Scripture. Wilfully sinning after receiving the truth leads to eternal condemnation.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful And I agree with all three of those statements. 1) Christ is the true vine and those who do not abide in Him are thrown away (because they do NOT bear fruit [John 15:2]); but those who do abide in Him, He likewise abides in that same person and he it is that bears much fruit (John 15:5). Bearing fruit is the evidence that one has been saved. Read Jesus' parable concerning the sower. It is only the seed that bears fruit in the end, not the joyful ones that last for a little while,
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] and then depart. This only demonstrates that what John said in his first epistle is actually true. That "they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you asserting, (in quoting Hebrews 10:26), that a Christian must be sinless, or else they're eternally condemned. If so, what about the willful...
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful ...sins of people like David (when he committed adultery and had a man killed) and Moses when he disobeyed God in the wilderness (which lead to his prevention in the promised land), etc. The way I see it, is if Jesus commanded us to forgive each other over and over again (Matt. 18:21-22), then God according to His love and mercy towards us, He would forgive us even greater debts. Just as it is written in (1 John 2:1)
xWhiteLightning 2 weeks ago
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@xWhiteLightning "They went out from us"...but before they went out they were just like you and me. Or do you think you will never go out? Because God will not let you out - implying God does not give you free will. Or because you are so confident of yourself that you will not go out - implying that you trust in yourself more than in God.
Which is which? Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal...
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
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K1B4HeHe 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful It says "disqualified for the prize", not "disqualified for salvation". Those are different things.
That's why Paul also says, among other things, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Your spin on what Paul meant leads to contradictions. Fortunately, you are wrong.
cadmus98 2 weeks ago
@cadmus98 You actually believe that a man can persist in sinning and yet remain saved?
John said "“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Pharisees reborn goes to heaven?
1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. Is this "anyone" somebody else or a brethren?
Why is this 'brethren' without eternal life?
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@cadmus98 Jesus came to save those who are sick of evil and thirst for righteousness. Not people who claim convenient repentance for fear of going to hell. Baptized or not, these people WILL go to hell. "REPENT & Be Baptised"....Not "Persist & Be Baptised"
Without true repentance, the heart remains dead...a heart of stone has no life. Without life where is the re-birth? With true repentance, the man will naturally strive for righteousness, otherwise its all self delusion.
Youngsamsonful 2 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Christ came to save WHOSOEVER desired to be saved. And He did save whosoever believed on Him :-)
"True" Biblical repentance is having a change of mind toward God and sin. Read about Paul (the Chief of sinners) in Romans 7:15-25.
It is unnatural for man to strive for righteousness. Thats why Christ lived a perfectly sinless life and fulfilled the Law.. died and was resurrected in so that we could be righteous in Him.
Things you're saying here are grossly inaccurate.
margovallen 2 weeks ago
@cadmus98 A born-again christian worships God through Jesus Christ.
But who worships God? John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Truth & Spirit. If you have these in you, you are born again. Otherwise, all's vain and self-delusion. Why else are there many who THINKS they are saved on judgement day, yet Jesus tells them He never knew them?
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful The reason why people (those in Matt. 7:22-23) think they are saved, is because man's heart is deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9). They practiced lawlessness without repentance, and so they perished. But notice what Jesus says; He said "I NEVER knew you", yet in (John 10:14) Jesus says concerning His sheep "I know My own and they know Me" If a sheep of Christ's can lose their salvation, even though it is said they'll be given eternal life and will never perish, why then doesn't Jesus say
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful [cont] in Matt. 7:23, 'I once knew you, then I forgot about you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'...but rather Jesus says to those who are cast away "I never knew you" which would show that they were never His sheep (saved) to begin with.
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@xWhiteLightning Was Paul one of these sheep? 1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul knows that even he can be DIS-QUALIFIED ! "Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends,—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
Many say their names are written, yet they know not that the fire is waiting for them.
Youngsamsonful 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Yes Paul was one of the sheep, and Jesus said that His sheep will be given eternal life and will NEVER perish, and no one is able to snatch them out of His hand (John 10:27). If one of Jesus' sheep end up perishing, that would make Jesus' promise of eternal life to them only temporal, rather than it being everlasting. For salvation is not dependent upon us holding onto God, but rather it is God holding onto us. This is evident in Jesus' words in John 6:37;39 as well.
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Again, read the context in 1 Cor. 9:27;where Paul talks about runners running a race for a perishable prize, while we're to run for an imperishable one.I already brought up that Paul made reference to such rewards earlier in 1 Cor. 3:10-15, where it is possible that their efforts may be burnt up & they suffer loss (disqualified from the prize), yet he himself will be saved (1 Cor. 3:15) [notice that salvation is never questioned since there is no condemnation for those in Christ]
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
@Youngsamsonful Also, in Philippians 2: yes Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling; then he goes on to say "For it is GOD WORKING IN YOU, both to WILL AND TO WORK for His good pleasure." Notice who Paul says is doing the working in us; notice also who he says gives us the will/desire to do it in the first place. For the Bible teaches that God has not only given us (believers) His Spirit, but has sealed us with it, who is the GUARANTEE our of inheritance (Eph. 1:11;13-14).
xWhiteLightning 3 weeks ago
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
Truthfully speaking because one can in fact go to hell against God's will, one is truly never separated from God even in hell. Due to this fact this is what makes hell,hell, always being in the love of one that sinners hate. Holy Scripture asks what can separate us from the love of God? Our will to love our sin and hate God. Therefore not being able to be separated from the love of God.
orthodoxyify 3 weeks ago
I am glad I have studied the church fathers and don't believe this anymore. The early church never taught predestination or U.E.S. Just read Ignatious of Antioch St.Peters disciple. Read his homoly on life after death. Yes you can in fact go to hell against Gods will. The Holy Scripture says it is not Gods will any should perish. However in fact is some do, therefore against Gods will.
orthodoxyify 3 weeks ago
AWSOME
IdaSputum 3 weeks ago
Do not spit in Jesus face by telling him his grace is not enough and that your works need to be added to his work on the cross. That's blasphemy from the devil! Lordship salvation is a quick trip to hell, for Pharisees who preach that damnable doctrine. Romans 4:5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2nd Corinthians 11:3). Salvation is simple, believe Jesus Christ is Lord and savior and he died and shed his precious blood for your sin and that he is now seated next to the Father in Heaven making intersession for you than you are truly saved. Repentance from sin is so that you stay in fellowship with God on earth, not salvation.
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
Food for thought:
The story of the 10 virgins and the wedding feast. There were 10 virgins (notice they are were virgins) 5 had their lamps full of oil (think of oil as relationship with God) and 5 had their lamps run dry. When the King came back, the 5 virgins that had their oil full, were allowed into the Great Wedding feast. The 5 without oil were not allowed.
All 10 were virgins (believers) but 5 of them had let their oil run dry and their fire burn out. They were not allowed in.
WilliamHunterStewart 3 weeks ago
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@WilliamHunterStewart Too deep for most bro. But you're on point. All these verses correctly support our assurance in salvation. But if we look at the key words: "you that believe", "our inheritance", "those who are in Christ", "the simplicity that is in Christ", " faith is credited as righteousness". What do all these verses have in common? There is a relationship/connection with Christ. It's a matter of words vs. actions (not works). Are your words and actions consistent? Consider 1 John1:6.
lorddreams469 3 weeks ago
Yes, you can "lose" your salvation. A covenant is a conditional promise that God will not break. We, however, can break it. That is why there are so many warnings in the Bible against falling away. Jesus clearly said that if you do not forgive, your sin(s) will not be forgiven. Now, if your sins are not forgiven - how will you enter into Heaven? Jesus also said that if you call your brother a fool, you are in danger of the fire of hell. He was talking to "saved" people - not unsaved.
edadan2009 4 weeks ago
@edadan2009 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." —1st John 5:13
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@realcoolboy17
As I already said - a covenant is a CONDITIONAL agreement. How do you discount so many warnings in the Bible? Do you really believe that God put those in His Word for "unsaved" people? The verses that you quote are God's promise of salvation to us who believe (IF) we continue to love, trust and obey Him. "Eternal security" is a doctrine of demons that has deceived millions of people. I hope that you will not be one of them.
edadan2009 3 weeks ago
@edadan2009 Now ask yourself, do you think those who genuinely believe in the first place are going to reject love,trust and obedience. If they do they were not saved in the first place, you can't truly believe in God and "live" his holy word than all of a sudden decide "you know what I had enough, I'm done". The truth was never in them, sorry my brother but you can't maintain your own salvation. God bless
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@realcoolboy17
Having been in the baptist church for almost 20 years, I've heard all this before - "they were never saved in the first place". How do you know who is saved? You have believed the lies of men over the Word of God. A covenant is NOT a guarantee of your salvation. The gift of salvation is offered for free while we are still sinners. It's not that God takes the gift away - it's us who give it back. Hence, the MANY warnings against falling away. Please believe what God says.
edadan2009 3 weeks ago
@edadan2009 Lol it really doesn't matter in the end. Saved once, Saved conditional, my point is God knows who is seated in Heavenly places with him from the beginning of time, the fact that you seem to harp on this so much has put a hindrance on your walk. If you can't find peace in your(people in general) walk that surpasseth all understanding than you are not fully walking with God. Make sure are spreading the Word not bondage. God bless ;)
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@realcoolboy17
Your sounding like a Calvinist who believes in predestination. For sure God knows who will be saved, but that is not in his hands. He has provided salvation for all we choose whether or not to embrace it. Be careful because it does matter in the end, the end is all that matters.
AA30316 3 weeks ago
@AA30316 What are you talking about? Calvinism believes only those chosen by God go to Heaven, where in there did I even hint to that? If Jesus Christ is your Lord and savior you are saved end of discussion! The both of you are more than welcome to continue to harp back and forth on what doctrine is false or not, I for one am going to continue the rest my life living for the kingdom (living the word, learning the word, and spreading the word). Have a blessed life fellow servant.
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@realcoolboy17
It's important because so many people (especially Baptists) say a prayer, get baptized and then continue to live in sin because they believe they now have a guarantee of salvation. So, it really does matter. And, although it often times makes me unpopular, I want people to know the truth. The apostle Paul did the same thing - he's the one who penned most of these warnings to the church. So, if you're going to teach others - teach them God's Word - not man's word.
edadan2009 3 weeks ago
@edadan2009 "...the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"
—Romans 5:18
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@edadan2009 "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" —Ephesians 1:13,14
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
@edadan2009 Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
In other words if you are truly saved(past present and future) then no you can't lose your salvation, If that was the case we both are in BIG trouble, if you say otherwise than you might be guilty of self righteousness. God bless ;)
realcoolboy17 3 weeks ago
I really do appreciate everyone's comments. I know u say them out of love and concern. But I am past the point of no return... My family comforts themselves by convincing each other that if I truly believed once, then I won't go to hell when I die. I hate seeing them hurt and angry, but I simply cannot live a lie. It is not ME hurting them, it's RELIGION. I wish I could convince them that no such place exists, but they are wrapped up in this delusion and it's the saddest thing I've ever seen.
JustOneGodFurther 4 weeks ago
@JustOneGodFurther i tell you this out of love: come back to Him..... He waits with Arms Open Wide..... :-)
aroura75 1 month ago
@JustOneGodFurther i went through something similar (maybe not as long as your season, but i went through it nonetheless) and i still experience doubt sometimes. but you know what makes these seasons worth going through them? i come back TEN TIMES STRONGER in my Faith. so if my periods of doubt are only a couple days, and yours lasted for several years (?), just IMAGINE how much stronger yours will be when you come back to Him!!!!!!!
aroura75 1 month ago
@JustOneGodFurther if you can deny that there is a God with ALL your heart, then you are not saved.
judging from your comments and the fact that you are trying to "help someone keep their faith" let's me know that you were at once truly a believer, but you are just going through a season of doubt. (obviously, idk how long you have been/ will be going through this period, but: ) i do know that there is potential to rededicate your life to Him and serve Him even MORE so.
aroura75 1 month ago
Christ is real, hes our savior, and i cant wait till his return
liliversion28379 1 month ago
If you are truly saved, and you have truly experienced God, you cannot and will not lose your salvation. Once saved always saved. But if you argue against my statement, let me ask you: Did you really experience God? or were you putting on an act?
TheMrPlatt 1 month ago
It only took him 30 seconds to contradict himself. Since when is a gift meant to be something you deserve? There very definition of a "gift" implies that it is something given that is undeserved. It's a gift! Not something that is earned!
You are welcome for my gift of knowledge. :)
CatchuptoKetchup 1 month ago
Over all I do believe you can't lose your Salvation what worries me is believing I was saved when I never was.
ORBuddha 1 month ago
@ORBuddha that is a GREAT way of saying it!
dtblitz55 1 month ago
I was wondering how this message would have gone if he had lost one of his kids?
ORBuddha 1 month ago
Becoming a Christian then abandoning God by living in sin, is basically becoming a son of perdition, tell me then do you believe Judas kept his salvation, he was a follower of Christ ( one day), he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide. This non-biblical idea of once saved always saved no matter what, is just as bad as spreading the catholic imagination of a "purgatory", both have the same effect, leading people to become complacent in their good fight, and not doing all to stand.
AA30316 1 month ago
@AA30316 "Becoming a Christian then abandoning God by living in sin" No that is proof that you only THOUGHT you became a Christian.
Remeber the quote? "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." ("not really of us", "would have remained ", and "not of us" in Greek are all rendered in the indicative meaning a simple statement of fact.
Moving2U 1 month ago
@AA30316
My sentiments exactly. And, I was raised Catholic, then became atheist, then became Baptist, then got born-again and now a memeber of a Bible believing non-denominational church.
edadan2009 3 weeks ago
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the difference between your cute daughter and an adult christian is that the adult christian is able to discern things.
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