I recently found out that a relative of mine molested a person very dear to me when she was a child. I found this video seeking guidance on how to deal with the pain I am feeling. In reading everyone's comments, unless you have been closely affected by this type of thing, it is hard to tell other people how they should feel and react. I know that God (should He actually exist as Christians are taught) will forgive sins. If He forgives my sins or yours, he must also forgive the child molester's.
To the top rated message and all those who gave a thumbs up: It is possible to feel the utmost of happiness withour Jesus in your life; Until God fills you with the Holy Spirit and you truly understand the difference. Worldly bliss or happiness comes and goes with good and bad situations. The joy of the Lord is with us even at out lowest times. Lost my job, my house and 3/4 of my belongings, living /w relatives. But nothing can compare to the security and hope that is only found in Christ.
Good speech. We often view subjects by how society feels and judge accordingly. I don't understand how believers can judge so called sinners when Jesus was very plain not to. There's verses that tealk about homosexuals but never for anyone to judge them. When Michael Jackson was going through his trial, there was a church group outside condemning him. John is right when he talked about believers being in danger of God's unforgiveness because of their own.
I say I believe in God but I don't really. I think it's a load of old crap but my wife would kill me if she knew so I play along. I presume thats what everybody else is doing?
@Vccine Its only a childrens story, adults aren't supposed to believe it. Its obviously a load of mumbo jumbo. I dont think anybody REALLY believes it, that would be impossible unless you were a very primitive person maybe, like the people who used to think the world was flat until they were educated.
However, since we do not know whether there is something after death or not (actually people who had near death experiences report that it very much exists, but thats different story), I'll risk it
@sukruoosten I married her because she is a beautiful sexy woman, a bit slow but really nice to look at. Seems like only people who are good at ignoring the obvious (like my wife) can belive in all this mumbo-jumbo about god and the devil etc And no, she cant kill me, she is too small but she could stab me in the face when I was asleep or something? She thinks folk who dont believe are evil ha ha ha! funny!
John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace" was a murderer and violent rapist of women and children as young as 10. Remember that the next time you sing it.
Google: "John Newton, "A Wretch Like Me," (Rapist), Young as 10; Author: "Amazing Grace,"
What Piper didn't mention in this video and what is so important to remember is that the serial killer, the child molester, the killer in your neighbor could easy be you or someone you love. The human mind and heart default at "selfish" and "aggressive"; every last one of us. We are capable of so much damage. God knows what he's doing when he sent Jesus to save us. God bless.
@Mitzi73 "The human mind and heart default at 'selfish' and 'aggressive'; every last one of us. " I fundementally disagree.
Do a thought-experiment. Iimagine there was no god, would you just go wild and do what you wanted? Or would you behave in a way that meant that you got on with your neighbours and that in turn you, your wife and kids were OK.
@UrukEngineer For the most part we would behave because it makes social and economic sense but trust me, evil always finds a way before it is ultimately crushed by divine goodness.
a child molester who repents sincerely has accepted Jesus into his life. but an atheist, muslim and jew have good things but does not have jesus in their lives. that's the difference. the child molester will pay for his wrong on earth. but in heaven he or she is forgiven.
@ UrukEngineer Have you happened to read the Lord of the flies? Very interesting, it shows morals aren't an evolutionary thing as they can be changed every generation. They are not innate like you say, or at least they are subject to change as each individual sees fit. That won't do, it's not practical.
@OmoItsekiri A society’s ethical code does evolve. Look at slavery. The UK led the US in abolishing it. Now, the parts of the bible that endorse slavery show it up for the Bronze Age ramblings that it is.
Also in the UK there is no capital punishment. The consensus is that it is barbaric for the state to kill criminals -although not everyone agrees. This does not lead to chaos.
@UrukEngineer but do be nice! Just make sure you are living for something worthwhile, since you believe this time is all you have make sure you search for the point of it all and have a good life. Peace and like it or not Jesus loves you :) Iol don't roll your eyes at me : P
@OmoItsekiri Omo, of course I'll be nice. I am not rolling my eyes at your comment as I can see that you're a genuine, kind human being. Your comment about Jesus loving me was clearly an act of compassion on your behalf
One does have to suspend reason to believe in god. That is why it is called faith. I am unable/unwilling to do that. Without religion I feel I see Life, the Earth, universe more vividly. However I am also human and can see why to those that believe, it is precious to them. :)
"Kids are, I believe, saved because of lack of accountability." -the bible does not say that. Please give the reference.
In fact even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20).
As for muslims converting, the truth is the other way round. The last few christians in Iraq are leaving - or being killed. (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378) = real evidence, not "dreams"
These are the facts, have you evidence to refute them?
@UrukEngineer If you tell someone you are a Christian in Iraq, you would be stoned according to their laws. I can tell you from Pastors that work underground that many are turning to christianity in the muslim world supernaturally from dreams they are having. I'll try and find you info.
You are asking me a series of questions and I can't answer all in the 500 characters, so please keep to one question.
re: Kids. I was careful to say "I believe" - however look at Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4
Mark 10:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them" Jesus wanted children to hear him and stopped adults turning them away. Note he did not say the had automatic rights to heaven. In fact this very issue split the Catholic church so, hundreds of years of years ago the Pope infallably created "Limbo" a place between heaven and hell. Recently in another degree the Pope infallably declared it did not exist.
@webhutspain Yes because the whole passage is proves a different point.
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
He is saying "such as these" ie innocent trusting believers. He is saying the simple love children show is what he wants. He does not say "for the kingdom of God belongs to children" ie all kids get in.
@webhutspain Trust me, you don't have to be a theologian to see that once you really think about the bible, there is so much about it that is jsut plain wrong.
It's bedtime for godless sinners in the UK, so I'm off. ;)
@webhutspain Jesus was speaking of BABY CHRISTIANS and using children as a symbol. The context is, if you hurt a BABY CHRISTIAN, it would be better if a millstone were tied around your neck and you be cast into the deepest sea, Context is everything. We need to quit reading into Jesus' words and putting words there that don't exist.
Our country's advocate's for sex laws says they uphold the rule of law. Proof is they have no regard for the law at all. In the dead of night this action was treason when a point of order was ignored, breaking the law to pass sex laws that do nothing for anyone. Our legal system will fail the moment someone with a few dollars & this knowledge confronts these facts. Sex laws are as archaic as what was done to Galileo. No one should register, & FCC terrorist activity ended cuz your in big trouble.
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
@UrukEngineer I'll to talk to you. I was an alcoholic on the verge dying. I had a little bit of faith from going to church when I was a kid, but it had pretty much gone. When you face death and nothingness through depression, that little bit of faith can move mountains. I cried out for jesus thinking that I would just try it as a last resort. This was 2 years ago and since then Jesus has manifested himself to me like he promises in the bible. This is not religion but a relationship.
@webhutspain When someone like yourself turns their life around I feel both happy for you and impressed at the protracted will and determination that it must have taken. Respect.
I have not been in quite the same position in my life. But as a soldier, I have felt gut-tremblingly scared - albeit for short periods of time.
I feel that when people overcome these "demons", it is by using inner-strength, not external help. I think you give too much credit to someone else that is really yours
@UrukEngineer I respect that I cannot imagine the terror that you went through in war. But your inner strength can only take you so far. You speak to any recovering alcoholic and that is exactly what they are, recovering. AA people don't believe me. If someone hits you over the head with a rock, it doesn't matter how many people tell you it's your imagination, YOU know its not. I don't expect you to understand but I ask you not to harden your heart and genuinely seek God. God Bless you.
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
*Why* does God not forgive unbelievers ? Simple - they don't ask for forgiveness. How can God give us what our own attitides make impossible for Him to give us ? The limitation is not in God's readiness to forgive, but in our readiness to receive. Forgive is available *if* we want it, for *any* sin - that is what the Cross is all about.
@UrukEngineer If someone is a child molester he is not a believer in Christ. To believe in, does not mean to think something exists as a child believes in Santa Claus. To believe in as, does he believe in his parents desire to feed, house and clothe him. Christ says, if you believe in me you will keep my commandments. To believe means to have faith in, to trust in, to follow him, not to "believe" he existed. Satan knows Christ existed, yet there is no faith in him.
@UrukEngineer Galatians 5 19 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God , "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
@UrukEngineer This formatting is a bit raw. Yes all sins are forgivable, although repentance is necessary, atonement is necessary. If someone does not feel they should be punished for a sin as grevious as this, how are they repentent? How could a decent man live with himself after commiting such a despicable act? Where is the compassion in such a person? Does he simply say, I am forgiven! Yet circumvent the laws of the land in his silence? How can he make restitution to the abused child?
@UrukEngineer Jesus atoned for our sins are far as salvation, since we are all sinners. Yet the heart of someone who is in Christ would find these deeds abhorant and act accordingly.
@UrukEngineer 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
@UrukEngineer At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
@UrukEngineer Child molester (CM) may come to a point where he feels sick about what he has done and truly repents. He realizes that he is a sick person and needs God to change him. He doesn't want to carry on doing it.
CM realizes that without God he is nothing. Atheist thinks that he is fine without God and is righteous on his by his own merits. Jesus said he came for the sinners not the righteous. You either choose Jesus righteousness to save you or your own righteousness. God Bless.
@webhutspain "Child molester (CM)", interesting acronym, I'll run with it.
What you are in effect saying is that no matter how heinous the crime, if you one truly repents and takes Jesus as ones personal saviour, then one goes to heaven.
However, if you refuse to believe in Jesus but are say a devout, kind and good Muslim, who never hurt anyone, paid his taxes and even helped christians you met - you are going to hell?
How cruel is that? Why not just deny afterlife - NOPE IT'S HELL!
@UrukEngineer Let me put it to you another way. Imagine 2 people in swamp. Now at the bottom of this swamp death is going to be absolutely awful & extreme. The man on the outside says "If you don't let me help you, you are going to die an awful death." One guy says HELP ME while the other says NO THANKS. The man outside gives the guy a stick to hold on and pull himself out. You see he realized he needed help the other doesn't. You are basically describing the man outside as being "cruel".
@webhutspain Nice try, but your analogy is not quite the same. You see god is all powerful and created the "swamp". Why a swamp? Why not, say. a bucket of chloroform? Death would be quick and painless?
God also created man with sinful nature. in other words he MADE us flawed. It is the same as pushing us into the swamp.
The fact that god then offers us a stick (all we have to do is grasp it) does not make him a good guy.
@UrukEngineer I agree perhaps not the best analogy. But just trying to make this point: You are calling the guy cruel for making the swamp that wasn't intended for those people even after he tries to help them get out. I would call him a decent guy. Hell was not made for man. Man fell into the trap but God din't not make us flawed. We were prefect. We choose to fall. He put a big sign saying don't go in the swamp, but we did anyway. How can you call that man cruel.
@webhutspain Kudos for keeping going mate. If he KNEW he had a dangerous swamp and it was open for kids to fall in (we are his children afterall) why didn't he fence it off?
Again, god can do anything he wants. He could just deny people the afterlife - why leave the options simply heaven or hell?
I know your belief in god pulled you through a difficult time. The concept of god not being true must be unpalletable to you. I think that you do yourself a dis-service by giving credit away.
@UrukEngineer That's a good question. You see God gave us free will. We are made in His image unlike other creatures. So free will means that I can choose to go in the swamp or not. Now if someone lies to me and says, hey go in the swamp it's amazing, I might just do it. We have that choice. I can tell my children the perils of drinking alcohol, but ultimately they have the choice. If I lock them in my house because alcohol is dangerous what sort of life would they have? Another anology ;)
@webhutspain One final "leap" into your swamp analogy? What about kids that fall in because they cant read the Einglish warning signs? Their fault?
Muslims are brought up to believe that Jesus was just a prophet. The bible says that no one gets to god except through him ie accepting Jesus etc. So ALL muslims go to hell oops, fall in the swamp. It's not their fault they were born in a fundamentalist country - why doesn't god cut them some slack?
@UrukEngineer You see the problem is that you giving the Bible and Koran equal weight. The Bible has hundreds of prophesies about Jesus ahead to time. His cruxifiction was written 1000 years before. It foretold Babylon ruling Israel for 70 exactly.
The Koran is a rant by some guy that tells you to beat your wife. He married a 6 year old girl and tells you to kill jews.
So analogy time:
2 signs to swamp: Sign1 says BEWARE SWAMP AHEAD. Sign 2. NO SWAMP IN FRONT (even though you can see it).
@UrukEngineer Hi again.There is something called an age of accountability and so if kids fall into this swamp I believe God will save them. Now as they get older and don't question the sign that says "No swamp ahead of you" when clearly there is, then that is their fault. You cannot deny the truth that is in the bible - the prophesies, the reemergence of the state of Israel in 1948 (in one day) just like the bible says etc. God has left massively big signs all over. It's your choice.
@UrukEngineer Also, God says that if you truly seek him you will find him. So if you do start to look for God, I am sure he will bring the Gospel to you by whatever means possible. However, if you decide that beating your wife up, peadophilia & killing Jews is OK because a book tells you and don't question, Are you really seeking God?
The thing is there are many Arabs doing exactly that & questioning their faith. Many are having dreams of Jesus and converting. It's big news at the moment.
@webhutspain Like I said mate, little kids in Iran, Pakistan etc are taught by their parents to believe that Jesus is just a prophet and the only way to heaven. Can you blame those little kids for "honouring their parents" and trusting their parents to be telling them the truth? They are not "in Jesus" and so god will let them roast in flames.
Why doesn't god save them? How do you reconcile that fact with your conscience?
@UrukEngineer I thought I answered this. Kids are, I believe, saved because of lack of accountability. Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq. God does not ignore the muslims. You can probably youtube or google the mass conversions happening right now. If you search for God he WILL show himself if you search with all your heart - that's a promise.
@UrukEngineer No probs. You ask good questions and I'm more than happy to try and explain the beauty of the gospel. It's refreshing to hear someone who is willing to listen. You might want to watch this on youtube. Place it in the URL above ....
@webhutspain I watched it all. SO many logical fallacies! Where to begin? How about:
What about the people who died before Jesus? No chance of swapping their perfect record for Jesus's, so they are in Hell. God knew he won't let them in but waits for thousands of years before providing a route to heaven. Is that the act of a loving god? Please give the bible reference that shows they were all given a chance after death. If the bible really is all you need, don't just give a personal guess.
@UrukEngineer Your assumption is misplaced and so there is no illogical fallacy. Abraham was saved by his faith, Paul says so In Romans. I'll find it for you if you want. Now I believe this is the case because, God lives outside of time, so what He did on the cross was fro ALL humanity across ALL times. Suffice to say that the bible tells us people were saved the other side of the cross.
@webhutspain But, without evidence, you, a human, is just making it up based on wishful thinking.
"God lives outside of time" - so what. Those that died before him, still had to "surrender to Jesus. Where does it say in the bible that they did? Prove it.
"Do you really think Newspapers would sell telling us how Islamists are converting to Christianity?" I know you haven't even looked at my reference. It is not a newspaper, it is the BBC. Respected by all faiths. Why not you?
@UrukEngineer Paul says so and Jesus said Abraham was in heaven. Abraham did surrender to Jesus because Jesus is God. In fact many believe that Abraham actually saw Jesus.
Thanks for trying. You will need to put w w w in front of the link (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)
YouTube automatically bars people pasting links to sites outside YouTube. I think it scans the text to see if those 3 letters are next to each other. It just says "Error. Try again" if you try to post.
@UrukEngineer Those that died before him, still had to "surrender to Jesus. Where does it say in the bible that they did? Prove it.
Ok here goes, King David wrote about the crucifixion 1000 years before it happened. He even wrote about how they pierced his hands and feet. He therefore must have seen the crucifixion and Jesus. As Jesus is God and we all know he surrendered to God, he surrendered to Jesus.
@webhutspain Nice try, but just surrendering to god is not the same as "going to god through Jesus". The Muslims and Jews surrender to the god of the old Testament yet they don't get in. They don't go through Jesus.
Even if King David knew about the crucifixition you can't say he saw Jesus because the bible does not say so.
You say many believe Abraham saw Jesus. Aren't these just human wishes.
You yourself said "it's all in the bible" - prove it
@UrukEngineer Look I'm not a theologian, so here's my opinion. In the OT God reveals his Holiness and Justice and tells us salvation will come through him. If you believed that he would save that would suffice. After the fact, and once he has revealed his mercy and salvation on the cross you must believe he did that for you. The purifying nature of the blood of Christ is what saves us through our faith. Now that's just an opinion.
Muslim's do not believe in the same God despite what they say.
I read the reference you sent me (watch?v=4lnB38K-gmc)
Have you read mine (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)?
Do you still think that: "Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq."?
Have you read mine (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)?
Do you still believe that: "Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq."?
@UrukEngineer Do you really think Newspapers would sell telling us how Islamists are converting to Christianity? I can tell you from many of the missionaries I talk to that they are like never before. Something is happening. What's happening in egypt is also prophetic and these nations will turn against Israel. Everyone thought the return of Israel was a metaphor until 1948. You couldn't make it up. If you want to know what happens it's all in the bible.
@UrukEngineer Your interpretation is correct. Piper doesn't say this, the Bible says. Let me explain why: All people are born sinners - Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Christian (yes, even a so-called "Christian"). So sin already sends us to hell (a better way to put this is "alienated us from God"). The criteria for heaven was never good deeds. Now, the remedy for sin is forgiveness. This forgiveness only Jesus provides, which everyone needs - Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Christian/child-molester.
@UrukEngineer Your standards of 'good' do not match up to God's. Compared to God's, human righteousness is filty and faulty. Whether those peopl go to heaven is up to God. But the atheist knowingly rejecting God? Why would they want to be with him after rejecting him? Makes no sense
@UrukEngineer That problem with that is anyone has a say, we are all equal. If everyone shouldn't have a say, how do you judge who has a say and who doesn't? There are many countires and many cultures different to yours, what right do you have to say who is right and who is wrong? You aren't the God of me! Lol. A highter power is required, to say this is wrong this is right, or all chaos breaks loose.
@OmoItsekiri There is almost certainly no god; no moral law giver. Inconvenient, but true.
Humans have evolved as social animals with some “morals” that help build stable groups. Protecting babies (human or otherwise) etc. However our moral code is developed largely in the societies in which we live – by group consensus.
Formal laws are passed that enforce them. However it is our parents, peers and friends who really help us develop a code of conduct.
@UrukEngineer There are many 'Golden rules' which one to chose? Just from the Chinese (I have recently been reading up on this) Confucius? Xunzi? Han fie? The problem is paradoxical. Each point has truths, but is inevitably flawed too. "What behaviour causes human culture to thrive?" is open to many interpretations, some which you wouldn't like, I'm sure. Should we use fear or love to rule people? Both can work pretty well to be honest. One may not be more valid than the other.
@UrukEngineer Hello, Yes, not all differences in thought lead to choas, but you could blame the influence of the West for the problems in Libya an Egypt. Perhaps they wouldn't want change because the grass looks greener. (just an example) I think it is futile to discuss this further. I will just say, my point from a truly scientific point of view, life is meaning less. Thousands of years human 'social development' and yet where are we?
@OmoItsekiri The human race striving for more knowledge, everday advancing towards something. You live then you die. What is it all for? Doctors don't save lives, they prolong the inevitable, no I am not pessimistic lol. But from my point of view this life is pointless. All the knowledge in the world I could learn and there would still be more never satisfied, never truly fulfilled. After I die life goes on and I am lost to history, maybe not even making it to the books, like I never happened.
@UrukEngineer All I lived for is taken away just like that. That does not make sense to me, it isn't right. I believe the creation story bacause it make sense, there is something wrong with this world, as long as humans exist, corruption is ever present, nerver ending. When I die I will be with my father, who I am living for now. That longing for something more has already been partially filled, I'm justing waiting for heaven. I say anymore you can have the closing statment if you wish.
@MrJcfolife Thank you. My definition of good/morally right is something that promotes happiness, well-being or health OR minimises unnecessary harm or suffering OR both. What is yours?
@UrukEngineer Here is God's definition that no man is good :
In Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God''
In Romans 5:12 says " Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man , and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."
man is dying no matter the circumstances of your life, whether you are good or bad, morally good or evil
if God finds you unclean in his sight, may God show mercy upon you, that's why we all need Jesus
@taroKID1 No mate. That is not a definition of "good". That is just the christian dogma of self-loathing. You haven't put any thought into that answer.
@UrukEngineer There is no one on earth that is Good/or Morally Perfect so your question is out of the question. nobody would know what it means to be morally perfect or good because human beings can never good, although we are capable of doing good but our soul is spiritually dead. So what I am saying is that if you dont have Jesus in your life, your life of doing good would all be for nothing. you know what i am saying??
@taroKID1 Wow the religious virus IS strong in you, young Sky Walker.
Just because no one is perfect does not mean the definition I gave is invalid. How can you prove otherwise???
It feels good to do good stuff. Trust me, I feel very happy without "Jesus in my life". I set my own goals, develop my own moral path (conversations like this on YouTube really help).
I feel spiritually enriched by sunrises, my child's laugh, the company of friends - I have never felt more alive.
When it comes to the question of "Will a good moral person go to heaven?" the answer is yes. Good moral people can go to heaven. However, the next question is. "When is good, good enough?" The answer is never. As human beings, we are imperfect. A quote from Tron Legacy "Nothing is as imperfect as our world." You can look at yourself and say, "Well I'm better than Hitler, a child molestor, rapist, Nazi, or whatever." But in the end we are still not good enough.
@Darkwolf41 "Good moral people can go to heaven" - not according to christian doctrine. You don't have to be good, just repent your "sins" and accept Jesus as your saviour.
"...in the end we are still not good enough" do you have the same approach to your kids? I hope not.
Get up of your knees, have some human dignity. It is not "pride" to want to act like an adult.
Which is why in the end. We need forgiveness. grace. and mercy. Because, we will never be good enough. But Christ is good enough. He lived a sinless life, died for our sins, and resurrected to prove that he was the Savior. Only by accepting his perfection can we ever be perfect enough. What i see (at least in one case), Atheists live in this mind set that they don't need God in their lives. Maybe even a lie. This pride is what sends them to hell not disbelief.
@UrukEngineer Yes, my friend. But this is not what Piper says... this is what God says. Can you see the value of that? Do you want to find God? He will be always (till you die) there to receive you as His own son. But do you want that? This is the only question you need to answer. Seek for Him. He's not hard to find at all! We can blindfold our eyes for anything... but there are always consequences.
I hope you make the best choice! Then, joy will last forever in your life!
Christians (and most other religions) have no independent standard by which they can assess whether something is "good/morally perfect". Without that standard, ANYTHING that they THINK god does or wants, considered to be "good".
Here Piper explains that it does not matter how "good" you are, it is whether you accept Jesus.
@UrukEngineer Almost. Anybody who believes in Christ, that he is God in the flesh, that he came to this Earth, healed the sick, made the blind see, rose the dead and died for our sins, and we TRULY believe that, then we can go to Heaven, regardless of your "religion!" And yes, a person can do good all days long, you cannot get to Heaven on good deeds alone.
@OfficialSOIssues What about all the people who lived before christianity was invented? What hope had they of reaching heaven when they had never heard about Jesus?
@UrukEngineer While Piper perchance makes that claim, I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. Personally, I think the Bible teaches something radically different...
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" (Romans 14:11)
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11)
@UrukEngineer Here is the brief answer. The first person you have described is a man of faith. The second is a man of deeds. Both are good for Nothing. Why? "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26, but you should read the entire James 2 to understand this).
But you might ask, "Well, why doesn't John mention this deeds part?" He probably already did in a past/future sermon. No one really likes to sit through hours of preaching, you know?
@SungRok That may well be the biblical answer. But it still does not explain why it is fair.
The christian worldview is binar; heaven OR hell. There is no middle ground. It is also quite clear from this sermon that only believers in Jesus go to heaven - EVERYONE else goes to hell.
What did god intend for the souls of biliions of humans who were born and died without ever hearing about Jesus? Where does it say that THEY were saved from hell?
@UrukEngineer All I have is a Biblical answer. As for fairness, why did Christ, who even to a non-believer was a good man, have to die on that cross? I tell you, if you play with the question of what is fair and what is not, you will be stuck for life; I guarantee that nothing will satisfy you.
You contradict yourself: you are not satisfied with the Biblical answer I provided before, yet you want me to provide a Biblical statement about those who've never heard of Christ. Sure, I will provide it
@UrukEngineer Yes, it is heaven or it is hell. Do you or I know whether one will enter into heaven or suffer in hell? Nope, because the Bible states that there is only One who will judge. (Never is a Christian to think that the individual created his or her own path into heaven... There is only one way... Jesus Christ.) And so, what did God intend for those souls that never heard of Christ? If the Bible states there is only One judge, then what He does for these souls, you or I will never know.
@UrukEngineer Wait a second?! Didn't I just say that there is only One way?! Why do I seem to be contradicting myself?! No, I am not. There is indeed only One way.. but faith must come with deeds.. and you and I have been blessed to even hear about Him.. in other words, we who have been blessed with this message of a Savior, Christ is the way... BUT, as we await to be judged by our God and He chooses to let these souls you mention pass into heaven, who are you and who am I to say, "UNFAIR!" ?!?!
@SungRok I know there is no answer in the bible to this, except that the entire human population before Jesus was born, has gone to hell. Their only crime? Dying before Jesus could "reach" them. God must have known this would happen...so why didn'y he at least give them the chance to save themselves by sending Jesus a couple of million years earlier?
@UrukEngineer How do you know that they have gone to hell? Where in the Bible does it state that they went to hell? You have a distorted understanding of the Bible. He indeed gave them chances (the Commandments and Atonement via sacrifice), and He indeed commanded those whom he found fit to spread the word about God. Think Moses. Think King David. Think Daniel and his three friends in a foreign land. Think Jonah. Think of the prophets right before Christ's birth.
@UrukEngineer If you feel that God's message was not spread before Christ's birth, then you must have a problem not only with Christians, but also with Jews and with Muslims alike, for they believe that God's message was spread through these men. I urge you to re-read the Bible, most importantly with the willingness to read without any bias. Forget what other Christians and non-Christians have told you. Read for yourself. Let's chat again at another time when you have done so. God bless you.
@UrukEngineer Most of the time, Christians are like that older brother: we complain, we want more, we think we deserve salvation, we think we are righteous for what we have done. But Christ says, "NO!" in that parable. If I am to welcome a lost soul, then do not question me for I AM! So, if God says let those souls pass, then keep quiet believer; if God says that they can't, then keep quiet non-believer. Do not judge the Lord, but for one not to do so, one MUST trust in His will.
@UrukEngineer It's not easy to just trust, we all know that. That is the biggest difference between you and me: faith in Him. Do you trust in Him and His will? Or do you despise Him and want to argue about everything He has let happen? You don't have to answer that. It's your answer and your answer to Him. May I pray for you and for your relationship with Him? I will, but I hope you won't think that I do this because I feel good about myself. I don't; I just want to pray I guess. God Bless
With all due respect, you don't seem to know anything about Orthodox Christian beliefs. 1. Everyone that existed before Jesus doesn't go to Hell. 2. Their only crime was not dying before Jesus was born. As a matter of fact, that's not even a crime. 3. No one saves themselves. Without going into too many details, God had followers who were counted righteous by Him before Jesus came to earth. However, even they are saved by Jesus' atonement on the cross.
@UrukEngineer Do you know about the Parable of the Prodigal Son? There is one huge part that many people seem to forget. The prodigal son's older brother saw that his father celebrated a great feast for his return, and he became immensely upset. He questions his father, "How come you never did this for me when I've worked for you all this time without fault?!" The response: just by being with me, I've let you enjoy all that I have, but for this lost soul, let me welcome him.
@UrukEngineer All have fallen short of the glory of God. It is God's grace that saves us, not our own righteousness...but, as a Christian, I struggle with this idea of forgiveness as well. However, to measure ourselves by our own morality and righteousness...we all fail in the sight of God.
Biblically speaking that's a false question. It's impossible for a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist to truly do good. Any "good" done outside of the power of God is as filthy as dirty rags in God's sight. The only reason a believer is able to do good is because God's spirit is working in them. As a matter of fact, even the "good" acts done by the non regenerate person( non Christian) is a result of God's COMMON grace in which EVERY human being experiences.
@machinethedean LOL, technically your statement is irrelevant regarding Atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods due to an absence of evidence.
Atheism says nothing about moral issues.
MY moral compass is best described as being rooted in humanism and I have a cogent definition of "good/morally perfect", unlike christians. They have NO useful definition of good, it is simply "what god tells them to do".
I'm almost positive whatever your own definition of "good" is can only be achieved by you at all is because of God's common grace. Biblically speaking, the only reason you even attempt to establish a moral compass is because of common grace.
@machinethedean There is no evidence for god's grace existing let alone inspiring my definition of "good/morally perfect". In fact using my definition and the statements in the bible, the christian god falls far short of "good". Therefore I if he/she did exist, this would not be the basis of their definition of good:
= something that promotes happiness, well-being or health OR minimises unnecessary harm or suffering OR both.
Would you agree with the definition...have a different one?
I would disagree and say that there is evidence that God's grace exists. I'm sure you don't find this evidence convincing however and disagree. That's fine we'll agree to disagree on that point. As for the definition of "good', I would say that is defined by God's character. God's very nature/essence is good. Anything contrary to his will and nature would be "evil". Good can sometimes promote happiness and well-being and often minimizes suffering and harm. I'm sure we'd agree .
I'm sure our definitions would allow us to agree on many different acts being classified as "good" or "evil". Of course, we would obviously disagree on many things as well.
@UrukEngineer Circular? No - linear. God's attributes are all aseitic (derived from Himself), and, as such, the image of God stamped on ourselves reflects that character, even if in a warped way since the fall. God is good by definition; we don't know good from bad apart from His gracious revelation as such both in the created order, rationally and through Scripture. There is no moral codes which exist independently of God; He established them in true freedom, derived from His nature+attributes.
@UrukEngineer I've already explained how the idea of goodness in this world is merely reflective of God's character, and His goodness exists entirely asietically. If you don't want to believe that, fine; but don't pretend that it's merely circular logic because it isn't. The only thing happening here is you unwilling to consider a viewpoint you've already written off.
@va3svd "the idea of goodness in this world is merely reflective of God's character". You have no means of showing god's actions are themselves "good"...because god did them.
By this definition, ANYTHING you think that god tells you to do is "good", eg fly planes into buildings.
@UrukEngineer God's goodness is manifest in not only everything He does but everything He is. He is the foundation of what we know to be good; i.e. self-sacrifice is "good", and the very existence of it in this world is only derived from God's own attributes.
God didn't tell people to fly planes into buildings so that can hardly be used against him, can it?
Honestly, there are good atheistic arguments out there but so few atheists actually use them. It's a joke.
@va3svd God also commanded genocide, infanticide, endorsed slavery and is overtly homophobic.
Without an external hairdryer-of-reality to blow over lightweight thinking, individuals need only convince themselves that they THINK god wants it and this gives them devine sanction.
Do you think it was just a coincidence that the 911 bombers were religiously motivated?
@UrukEngineer Really? "God commanded genocide" etc? Is that the best you can do? Such facile argumentation, no appreciation of detail or context. And the "homophobic" is downright laughable; I suppose God is kleptophobic as well, by that logic.
Just because some terrorists (Muslims, mind you - not Christians, although Christian terrorism tragically has existed as well) claim to be speaking for God doesn't, you know, mean that they actually were.
The reason religion gives succour to the fanatic is that it protects itself from real-world scrutiny. God is hidden from audit by being "metaphysical", adherents claim god IS the yardstick of good. Religion brooks no scrutiny. History is littered with examples of ho power without scrutiny is invariably abused.
@UrukEngineer You know, for a guy claiming to be so logical, you throw out a lot of ad hominem rhetoric. Notice how I don't have to resort to that? And the misrepresentation: "Religion brooks no scrutiny" - yeah, I guess the Reformation never happened, huh? Honestly - you don't realize absolute statements get you in trouble?
As far as the "homophobia", there's a difference between God disapproving of something and fearing it. "Thou shalt not steal" is not "kleptophobic". Honestly...
@va3svd "for a guy claiming to be so logical, you throw out a lot of ad hominem rhetoric" - where have I dismissed your argument by cynically attacking you directly? I have read and re-read the comments and can’t find any evidence to substantiate your claim.
Absolute statements are the stock-in-trade of the religious. Are you willing to conceed that there might not be a god, or are you ABSOLUTELY sure that there is one?
@va3svd The christian god does not not just "disappove" of homosexuality. He commands that "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13).
Do you agree with god, that they should be put to death? Or do you think this reaction is too extreme?
@UrukEngineer It's not just homosexuality. Idolotry (which everyone is guilty of) calls for death. That's what is amazing about Christ's death. God took on flesh to take our guilt upon himself and absolve us from it. Considering you are taking pre-grace scripture out of context then I'm assuming you are trolling and this response will be worth less than nothing to you.
@lot3kness You can't see the obvious flaw can you?
The laws of physics do not demand death for homosexuality/idolotry etc. It is the christian god that insists on murdering us. So why be grateful to him for murdering his own son so that he doesn't have to murder us?
@UrukEngineer there are things to say that run longer than a comment on youtube that could serve to make the point I'm going to make, but we are already at an impasse.
Put simply, if God created man, then it is his right to set his laws in accordance to his wishes. Nice rebuttal referencing the laws of physics, enjoy observing them over your lifetime and watching how they will continually change as we realize how much more we don't understand.
@lot3kness I'm not troll. The OT is still the word of god is it not? Jesus specifically refused to amend the OT, not "one iota". Therefore it is wrong to discount the wickedness of the OT as being pre-grace statements. Christianity is rather stuck with it. As for the "laws" of physics, they are continually refined through a pocess of open-minded inquiry. They approximate to Reality ever more closely. Is that not more honest that claiming irrefutable absolute truth from 2600 years ago?
@UrukEngineer You are clearly trolling, it doesn't take long to see that.
I did not say the OT is not valid, I said out of context. The bible is the sum of all it's parts, not a scripture here and a scripture there. The OT's wickedness is paramount to that story, for realizing the need for a savior.
In regards to your comment on the laws of physics. They are laws, but not constants. They do not gorvern anything but serve as the sum of consensus and observation; and as such can be refuted.
@lot3kness Given that god instructs his followers to commit genocide, deliberately hardens the hearts in order to punish them etc how on earth can the OT be seen as proving the need for a saviour? Even taken in its widest context, the only thing that needs saving are humans - from Yahwey. When you excuse leaders for their crimes you start sliding down a slippery slope.
@UrukEngineer I'll start by saying, God does not actively instruct genocide. Again, out of context.
You are welcome to what you reason for yourself, a life with a God that one can hold accountable, lest he be accountable too I'm sure is a lot easier to live. The bible is the Gospel, it all points to the cross. If you took the time to understand what living a gospel centered life was you would see the issue is not in the message, but it's practitioners.
@machinethedean This is not a question of semantics. It is actually why I feel unsafe when I see the religious blindly following the edicts of their clergy such as Piper.
Unless you have a clear understanding of what is "good", then ANYTHING you or your priests THINK god wants you to do is "good" in your eyes. It is EXACTLY the same lack of reasoning that flies planes into buildings.
Continued. Common grace curbs/restrains the evil hearts of men/women. It makes sure fallen mankind retains a conscience indicating the differences between right and wrong. It makes sure that human society doesn't become completely intolerable/ungovernable by following their own corrupted hearts/minds. This common grace is truly the only reason this world is able to function at some level of order at all.God, in his mercy, gives this to protect His people (followers of Christ)
@machinethedean I'd like to stress the Hitchen's challenge at this point. "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer."
@UrukEngineer been a while since I have been on youtube, all that Christ said, did and achieved was good. If someone agrees with Jesus or Yeshua then they believe in him. Jesus said if you believe in him you will do as he says. We are saved by faith, given by grace of God and our faith is shown in our works. Our works do not save us, our deeds do not save us, although they represent us.
The mans name was not even Jesus, Envoking his name is not a magic spell as many people believe.
@UrukEngineer You asked if a good person can go to hell, if a person is good he will believe in Christ. Read the sermon on the mount and see if there is anything there that is vile. The only hitch is folks who say, "I believe in God" Believe in whatever they desire. "God" is simply a word, Jesus is simply a word. What we "believe in" is the meaning of the word, the "personality" behind the word. Heck, it could be Bob, or Larry, "a rose by any other name"?
@Temptuous2112 "...if a person is good he will believe in Christ"
Your definition implies that no one from any other religion can possibly be "good". Is that your intention? If so, can you see what a breathtakingly arrogant statement that is?
@Temptuous2112 A good person can't go to hell. God says "There is none that are good, not even one." The good that you a using as a messure is man vs man. You may be better than a man but even the best of men are evil their hearts are deceptively wicked. Judge yourself against God however and your own self rightousness is as filthy as rags. We have all sinned and fall short of His glory. Jesus paid our sin debt for us, the only thing that can give us peace with God is to except His sacrifice 4us
If we're going to talk about the Old Testis' God. The question should be whether we should forgive god. The character of satan it's barely in the picture compared to the genocides god tells his followers to commit in his name. Of course, god got his act together by the time he sent his son to earth.
A child molester and abortionist have the same quality only one is allow by law !
DefectedSalvations 1 week ago
I recently found out that a relative of mine molested a person very dear to me when she was a child. I found this video seeking guidance on how to deal with the pain I am feeling. In reading everyone's comments, unless you have been closely affected by this type of thing, it is hard to tell other people how they should feel and react. I know that God (should He actually exist as Christians are taught) will forgive sins. If He forgives my sins or yours, he must also forgive the child molester's.
sandmanssister 1 month ago 2
Why in this video is God being questioned? The question should be "Does God forgive child molesters etc..?" and the answer is Yes.
ChristinaMC11 1 month ago
To the top rated message and all those who gave a thumbs up: It is possible to feel the utmost of happiness withour Jesus in your life; Until God fills you with the Holy Spirit and you truly understand the difference. Worldly bliss or happiness comes and goes with good and bad situations. The joy of the Lord is with us even at out lowest times. Lost my job, my house and 3/4 of my belongings, living /w relatives. But nothing can compare to the security and hope that is only found in Christ.
Moving2U 1 month ago
Thank the Lord for working through Mr. John Piper
l1uname 3 months ago
Good speech. We often view subjects by how society feels and judge accordingly. I don't understand how believers can judge so called sinners when Jesus was very plain not to. There's verses that tealk about homosexuals but never for anyone to judge them. When Michael Jackson was going through his trial, there was a church group outside condemning him. John is right when he talked about believers being in danger of God's unforgiveness because of their own.
glance2see 3 months ago
AMEN
raktar2 4 months ago
I say I believe in God but I don't really. I think it's a load of old crap but my wife would kill me if she knew so I play along. I presume thats what everybody else is doing?
tony9L9L 5 months ago
@tony9L9L Fortunately, no. Not everybody do it
Vccine 3 months ago
@Vccine Its only a childrens story, adults aren't supposed to believe it. Its obviously a load of mumbo jumbo. I dont think anybody REALLY believes it, that would be impossible unless you were a very primitive person maybe, like the people who used to think the world was flat until they were educated.
tony9L9L 3 months ago
@tony9L9L You know, probably you are right.
However, since we do not know whether there is something after death or not (actually people who had near death experiences report that it very much exists, but thats different story), I'll risk it
I won't lose anything anyway
Vccine 3 months ago
@Vccine I do actually believe in God but he died on the toilet in Memphis in 1977.
So long as you are free and you spend your beautiful short time on earth marveling at how truly wonderful it is to be alive.
Best wishes to you my friend.
tony9L9L 3 months ago
@tony9L9L Likewise my friend, likewise
Vccine 3 months ago
@tony9L9L what a lame point your good believing wife cant kill you
even if you would tell her
THOU SHALT NOT KILL !!!!!
so dont pretend your a believer
but im wondering why did you marry a Christian then ???
kind of bizar if you ask me
because its almost seems your wife is a strong believer
sukruoosten 1 month ago
@sukruoosten I married her because she is a beautiful sexy woman, a bit slow but really nice to look at. Seems like only people who are good at ignoring the obvious (like my wife) can belive in all this mumbo-jumbo about god and the devil etc And no, she cant kill me, she is too small but she could stab me in the face when I was asleep or something? She thinks folk who dont believe are evil ha ha ha! funny!
tony9L9L 1 month ago
John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace" was a murderer and violent rapist of women and children as young as 10. Remember that the next time you sing it.
Google: "John Newton, "A Wretch Like Me," (Rapist), Young as 10; Author: "Amazing Grace,"
letsgetreal50 8 months ago
@letsgetreal50 ...and....?
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
What Piper didn't mention in this video and what is so important to remember is that the serial killer, the child molester, the killer in your neighbor could easy be you or someone you love. The human mind and heart default at "selfish" and "aggressive"; every last one of us. We are capable of so much damage. God knows what he's doing when he sent Jesus to save us. God bless.
Mitzi73 9 months ago
@Mitzi73 "The human mind and heart default at 'selfish' and 'aggressive'; every last one of us. " I fundementally disagree.
Do a thought-experiment. Iimagine there was no god, would you just go wild and do what you wanted? Or would you behave in a way that meant that you got on with your neighbours and that in turn you, your wife and kids were OK.
Search your heart for the answer and be honest.
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer For the most part we would behave because it makes social and economic sense but trust me, evil always finds a way before it is ultimately crushed by divine goodness.
Mitzi73 8 months ago
@Mitzi73 "we would behave because it makes social and economic sense". This is exactly how moral behaviour evolved in man.
There was no need for a god to be the "source" of morals
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
a child molester who repents sincerely has accepted Jesus into his life. but an atheist, muslim and jew have good things but does not have jesus in their lives. that's the difference. the child molester will pay for his wrong on earth. but in heaven he or she is forgiven.
mathai11 9 months ago
@ UrukEngineer Have you happened to read the Lord of the flies? Very interesting, it shows morals aren't an evolutionary thing as they can be changed every generation. They are not innate like you say, or at least they are subject to change as each individual sees fit. That won't do, it's not practical.
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri A society’s ethical code does evolve. Look at slavery. The UK led the US in abolishing it. Now, the parts of the bible that endorse slavery show it up for the Bronze Age ramblings that it is.
Also in the UK there is no capital punishment. The consensus is that it is barbaric for the state to kill criminals -although not everyone agrees. This does not lead to chaos.
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer but do be nice! Just make sure you are living for something worthwhile, since you believe this time is all you have make sure you search for the point of it all and have a good life. Peace and like it or not Jesus loves you :) Iol don't roll your eyes at me : P
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri Omo, of course I'll be nice. I am not rolling my eyes at your comment as I can see that you're a genuine, kind human being. Your comment about Jesus loving me was clearly an act of compassion on your behalf
One does have to suspend reason to believe in god. That is why it is called faith. I am unable/unwilling to do that. Without religion I feel I see Life, the Earth, universe more vividly. However I am also human and can see why to those that believe, it is precious to them. :)
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
This is beautiful
LEXX1212 11 months ago
"Kids are, I believe, saved because of lack of accountability." -the bible does not say that. Please give the reference.
In fact even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20).
As for muslims converting, the truth is the other way round. The last few christians in Iraq are leaving - or being killed. (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378) = real evidence, not "dreams"
These are the facts, have you evidence to refute them?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer If you tell someone you are a Christian in Iraq, you would be stoned according to their laws. I can tell you from Pastors that work underground that many are turning to christianity in the muslim world supernaturally from dreams they are having. I'll try and find you info.
You are asking me a series of questions and I can't answer all in the 500 characters, so please keep to one question.
re: Kids. I was careful to say "I believe" - however look at Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Noted.
Mark 10:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them" Jesus wanted children to hear him and stopped adults turning them away. Note he did not say the had automatic rights to heaven. In fact this very issue split the Catholic church so, hundreds of years of years ago the Pope infallably created "Limbo" a place between heaven and hell. Recently in another degree the Pope infallably declared it did not exist.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Please don't start me on Catholics. I noticed you omiited the rest of the sentence: for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Yes because the whole passage is proves a different point.
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
He is saying "such as these" ie innocent trusting believers. He is saying the simple love children show is what he wants. He does not say "for the kingdom of God belongs to children" ie all kids get in.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@webhutspain Trust me, you don't have to be a theologian to see that once you really think about the bible, there is so much about it that is jsut plain wrong.
It's bedtime for godless sinners in the UK, so I'm off. ;)
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Well remember this, Jesus came for the sinners not the righteous. So sweet dreams and God Bless.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Jesus was speaking of BABY CHRISTIANS and using children as a symbol. The context is, if you hurt a BABY CHRISTIAN, it would be better if a millstone were tied around your neck and you be cast into the deepest sea, Context is everything. We need to quit reading into Jesus' words and putting words there that don't exist.
No, I'm not Christian, but I can read!
letsgetreal50 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Our country's advocate's for sex laws says they uphold the rule of law. Proof is they have no regard for the law at all. In the dead of night this action was treason when a point of order was ignored, breaking the law to pass sex laws that do nothing for anyone. Our legal system will fail the moment someone with a few dollars & this knowledge confronts these facts. Sex laws are as archaic as what was done to Galileo. No one should register, & FCC terrorist activity ended cuz your in big trouble.
Keither9 1 year ago
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
I promise to be nice :)
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer I'll to talk to you. I was an alcoholic on the verge dying. I had a little bit of faith from going to church when I was a kid, but it had pretty much gone. When you face death and nothingness through depression, that little bit of faith can move mountains. I cried out for jesus thinking that I would just try it as a last resort. This was 2 years ago and since then Jesus has manifested himself to me like he promises in the bible. This is not religion but a relationship.
webhutspain 1 year ago
@webhutspain When someone like yourself turns their life around I feel both happy for you and impressed at the protracted will and determination that it must have taken. Respect.
I have not been in quite the same position in my life. But as a soldier, I have felt gut-tremblingly scared - albeit for short periods of time.
I feel that when people overcome these "demons", it is by using inner-strength, not external help. I think you give too much credit to someone else that is really yours
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I respect that I cannot imagine the terror that you went through in war. But your inner strength can only take you so far. You speak to any recovering alcoholic and that is exactly what they are, recovering. AA people don't believe me. If someone hits you over the head with a rock, it doesn't matter how many people tell you it's your imagination, YOU know its not. I don't expect you to understand but I ask you not to harden your heart and genuinely seek God. God Bless you.
webhutspain 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
I promise to be nice :)
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
I promise to be nice :)
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
TO ALL CHRISTIANS. Do you believe blindly or do you think, reason and then believe because religion makes sense?
If you are a blind follower your "love" is worthless to god - you are no better than a groupie
If you "know" religion makes sense and are prepared to stand up for your faith, then step up to the plate and answer a few of my simple questions. Don't worry I won't corrupt you, just exercise a muscle you have allowed to go fat and flabby - your brain.
I promise to be nice :)
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
Brilliant video.
*Why* does God not forgive unbelievers ? Simple - they don't ask for forgiveness. How can God give us what our own attitides make impossible for Him to give us ? The limitation is not in God's readiness to forgive, but in our readiness to receive. Forgive is available *if* we want it, for *any* sin - that is what the Cross is all about.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 year ago
This is a great video for exposing the moral bancrupcy of religion.
God could forgive a child molester if he repented.
But he world not "forgive" a good and kind unbeliever.
Wake up people!
UrukEngineer 1 year ago 8
@UrukEngineer If someone is a child molester he is not a believer in Christ. To believe in, does not mean to think something exists as a child believes in Santa Claus. To believe in as, does he believe in his parents desire to feed, house and clothe him. Christ says, if you believe in me you will keep my commandments. To believe means to have faith in, to trust in, to follow him, not to "believe" he existed. Satan knows Christ existed, yet there is no faith in him.
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@Temptuous2112 Sorry mate, but I can't understand your point.
UrukEngineer 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer Galatians 5 19 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God , "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer This formatting is a bit raw. Yes all sins are forgivable, although repentance is necessary, atonement is necessary. If someone does not feel they should be punished for a sin as grevious as this, how are they repentent? How could a decent man live with himself after commiting such a despicable act? Where is the compassion in such a person? Does he simply say, I am forgiven! Yet circumvent the laws of the land in his silence? How can he make restitution to the abused child?
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer Jesus atoned for our sins are far as salvation, since we are all sinners. Yet the heart of someone who is in Christ would find these deeds abhorant and act accordingly.
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@UrukEngineer At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Temptuous2112 1 year ago
@Temptuous2112 Hmmm. Tell me if I am wrong, but this is what Piper says:
If a child molester repents and atones, and receives Christ etc, he can go to heaven.
If a man who does good every day, all day, but is a Muslim, Jew or Atheist, then he goes to hell.
Is this a correct interpretation? - Please keep your answer brief mate.
UrukEngineer 1 year ago 33
@UrukEngineer Child molester (CM) may come to a point where he feels sick about what he has done and truly repents. He realizes that he is a sick person and needs God to change him. He doesn't want to carry on doing it.
CM realizes that without God he is nothing. Atheist thinks that he is fine without God and is righteous on his by his own merits. Jesus said he came for the sinners not the righteous. You either choose Jesus righteousness to save you or your own righteousness. God Bless.
webhutspain 1 year ago
@webhutspain "Child molester (CM)", interesting acronym, I'll run with it.
What you are in effect saying is that no matter how heinous the crime, if you one truly repents and takes Jesus as ones personal saviour, then one goes to heaven.
However, if you refuse to believe in Jesus but are say a devout, kind and good Muslim, who never hurt anyone, paid his taxes and even helped christians you met - you are going to hell?
How cruel is that? Why not just deny afterlife - NOPE IT'S HELL!
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Let me put it to you another way. Imagine 2 people in swamp. Now at the bottom of this swamp death is going to be absolutely awful & extreme. The man on the outside says "If you don't let me help you, you are going to die an awful death." One guy says HELP ME while the other says NO THANKS. The man outside gives the guy a stick to hold on and pull himself out. You see he realized he needed help the other doesn't. You are basically describing the man outside as being "cruel".
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Nice try, but your analogy is not quite the same. You see god is all powerful and created the "swamp". Why a swamp? Why not, say. a bucket of chloroform? Death would be quick and painless?
God also created man with sinful nature. in other words he MADE us flawed. It is the same as pushing us into the swamp.
The fact that god then offers us a stick (all we have to do is grasp it) does not make him a good guy.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I agree perhaps not the best analogy. But just trying to make this point: You are calling the guy cruel for making the swamp that wasn't intended for those people even after he tries to help them get out. I would call him a decent guy. Hell was not made for man. Man fell into the trap but God din't not make us flawed. We were prefect. We choose to fall. He put a big sign saying don't go in the swamp, but we did anyway. How can you call that man cruel.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Kudos for keeping going mate. If he KNEW he had a dangerous swamp and it was open for kids to fall in (we are his children afterall) why didn't he fence it off?
Again, god can do anything he wants. He could just deny people the afterlife - why leave the options simply heaven or hell?
I know your belief in god pulled you through a difficult time. The concept of god not being true must be unpalletable to you. I think that you do yourself a dis-service by giving credit away.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer That's a good question. You see God gave us free will. We are made in His image unlike other creatures. So free will means that I can choose to go in the swamp or not. Now if someone lies to me and says, hey go in the swamp it's amazing, I might just do it. We have that choice. I can tell my children the perils of drinking alcohol, but ultimately they have the choice. If I lock them in my house because alcohol is dangerous what sort of life would they have? Another anology ;)
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain One final "leap" into your swamp analogy? What about kids that fall in because they cant read the Einglish warning signs? Their fault?
Muslims are brought up to believe that Jesus was just a prophet. The bible says that no one gets to god except through him ie accepting Jesus etc. So ALL muslims go to hell oops, fall in the swamp. It's not their fault they were born in a fundamentalist country - why doesn't god cut them some slack?
Either god is cruel or he does not exist.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer You see the problem is that you giving the Bible and Koran equal weight. The Bible has hundreds of prophesies about Jesus ahead to time. His cruxifiction was written 1000 years before. It foretold Babylon ruling Israel for 70 exactly.
The Koran is a rant by some guy that tells you to beat your wife. He married a 6 year old girl and tells you to kill jews.
So analogy time:
2 signs to swamp: Sign1 says BEWARE SWAMP AHEAD. Sign 2. NO SWAMP IN FRONT (even though you can see it).
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Little kids in Iran, Pakistan etc are taught by their parents to believe that Jesus is just a prophet and the only way to heaven.
Can you blame those little kids for "honouring their parents" and trusting their parents to be telling them the truth?
Why doesn't god save them?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
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@UrukEngineer Hi again.There is something called an age of accountability and so if kids fall into this swamp I believe God will save them. Now as they get older and don't question the sign that says "No swamp ahead of you" when clearly there is, then that is their fault. You cannot deny the truth that is in the bible - the prophesies, the reemergence of the state of Israel in 1948 (in one day) just like the bible says etc. God has left massively big signs all over. It's your choice.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Also, God says that if you truly seek him you will find him. So if you do start to look for God, I am sure he will bring the Gospel to you by whatever means possible. However, if you decide that beating your wife up, peadophilia & killing Jews is OK because a book tells you and don't question, Are you really seeking God?
The thing is there are many Arabs doing exactly that & questioning their faith. Many are having dreams of Jesus and converting. It's big news at the moment.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Like I said mate, little kids in Iran, Pakistan etc are taught by their parents to believe that Jesus is just a prophet and the only way to heaven. Can you blame those little kids for "honouring their parents" and trusting their parents to be telling them the truth? They are not "in Jesus" and so god will let them roast in flames.
Why doesn't god save them? How do you reconcile that fact with your conscience?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer I thought I answered this. Kids are, I believe, saved because of lack of accountability. Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq. God does not ignore the muslims. You can probably youtube or google the mass conversions happening right now. If you search for God he WILL show himself if you search with all your heart - that's a promise.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain oops, please see reply - sorry
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer No probs. You ask good questions and I'm more than happy to try and explain the beauty of the gospel. It's refreshing to hear someone who is willing to listen. You might want to watch this on youtube. Place it in the URL above ....
watch?v=4lnB38K-gmc
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain I watched it all. SO many logical fallacies! Where to begin? How about:
What about the people who died before Jesus? No chance of swapping their perfect record for Jesus's, so they are in Hell. God knew he won't let them in but waits for thousands of years before providing a route to heaven. Is that the act of a loving god? Please give the bible reference that shows they were all given a chance after death. If the bible really is all you need, don't just give a personal guess.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Your assumption is misplaced and so there is no illogical fallacy. Abraham was saved by his faith, Paul says so In Romans. I'll find it for you if you want. Now I believe this is the case because, God lives outside of time, so what He did on the cross was fro ALL humanity across ALL times. Suffice to say that the bible tells us people were saved the other side of the cross.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain But, without evidence, you, a human, is just making it up based on wishful thinking.
"God lives outside of time" - so what. Those that died before him, still had to "surrender to Jesus. Where does it say in the bible that they did? Prove it.
"Do you really think Newspapers would sell telling us how Islamists are converting to Christianity?" I know you haven't even looked at my reference. It is not a newspaper, it is the BBC. Respected by all faiths. Why not you?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Paul says so and Jesus said Abraham was in heaven. Abraham did surrender to Jesus because Jesus is God. In fact many believe that Abraham actually saw Jesus.
RE: BBC No the link didn't work - but I did try.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain
Thanks for trying. You will need to put w w w in front of the link (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)
YouTube automatically bars people pasting links to sites outside YouTube. I think it scans the text to see if those 3 letters are next to each other. It just says "Error. Try again" if you try to post.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Those that died before him, still had to "surrender to Jesus. Where does it say in the bible that they did? Prove it.
Ok here goes, King David wrote about the crucifixion 1000 years before it happened. He even wrote about how they pierced his hands and feet. He therefore must have seen the crucifixion and Jesus. As Jesus is God and we all know he surrendered to God, he surrendered to Jesus.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@webhutspain Nice try, but just surrendering to god is not the same as "going to god through Jesus". The Muslims and Jews surrender to the god of the old Testament yet they don't get in. They don't go through Jesus.
Even if King David knew about the crucifixition you can't say he saw Jesus because the bible does not say so.
You say many believe Abraham saw Jesus. Aren't these just human wishes.
You yourself said "it's all in the bible" - prove it
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Look I'm not a theologian, so here's my opinion. In the OT God reveals his Holiness and Justice and tells us salvation will come through him. If you believed that he would save that would suffice. After the fact, and once he has revealed his mercy and salvation on the cross you must believe he did that for you. The purifying nature of the blood of Christ is what saves us through our faith. Now that's just an opinion.
Muslim's do not believe in the same God despite what they say.
webhutspain 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@webhutspain
I AM willing to listen, are you?
I read the reference you sent me (watch?v=4lnB38K-gmc)
Have you read mine (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)?
Do you still think that: "Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq."?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@webhutspain
I AM willing to listen, are you?
I read your reference (watch?v=4lnB38K-gmc)
Have you read mine (bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11724378)?
Do you still believe that: "Jesus is appearing to muslims right now in dreams and they are converting by the thousands. You hear this happening in places like Iraq."?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Do you really think Newspapers would sell telling us how Islamists are converting to Christianity? I can tell you from many of the missionaries I talk to that they are like never before. Something is happening. What's happening in egypt is also prophetic and these nations will turn against Israel. Everyone thought the return of Israel was a metaphor until 1948. You couldn't make it up. If you want to know what happens it's all in the bible.
webhutspain 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer No one goes good all day. No one is good, Not one.
Ty806 11 months ago
@Ty806 "No one goes good all day. No one is good, Not one"
Yes, and your point is....?
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Your interpretation is correct. Piper doesn't say this, the Bible says. Let me explain why: All people are born sinners - Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Christian (yes, even a so-called "Christian"). So sin already sends us to hell (a better way to put this is "alienated us from God"). The criteria for heaven was never good deeds. Now, the remedy for sin is forgiveness. This forgiveness only Jesus provides, which everyone needs - Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Christian/child-molester.
renmantw 11 months ago
@renmantw "Your interpretation is correct." Thanks mate.
Can you see how awful and condemnatory this is?
a. Innocent new borns are considered wicked sinners who deserve death and torture.
b. Kind people who do good deserve death and torture just because they don't believe what you believe.
If god existed he should be prosecuted for hate crimes.
UrukEngineer 11 months ago
@UrukEngineer Your standards of 'good' do not match up to God's. Compared to God's, human righteousness is filty and faulty. Whether those peopl go to heaven is up to God. But the atheist knowingly rejecting God? Why would they want to be with him after rejecting him? Makes no sense
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri "Your standards of 'good' do not match up to God's" How on Earth can you say that?
It makes sense when you realise that there is no god.
Morals come from within man.
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer That problem with that is anyone has a say, we are all equal. If everyone shouldn't have a say, how do you judge who has a say and who doesn't? There are many countires and many cultures different to yours, what right do you have to say who is right and who is wrong? You aren't the God of me! Lol. A highter power is required, to say this is wrong this is right, or all chaos breaks loose.
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri There is almost certainly no god; no moral law giver. Inconvenient, but true.
Humans have evolved as social animals with some “morals” that help build stable groups. Protecting babies (human or otherwise) etc. However our moral code is developed largely in the societies in which we live – by group consensus.
Formal laws are passed that enforce them. However it is our parents, peers and friends who really help us develop a code of conduct.
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri We CAN form a moral code based on the "Golden Rule". The framework we can use is simply "what behaviour causes human culture to thrive?"
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer There are many 'Golden rules' which one to chose? Just from the Chinese (I have recently been reading up on this) Confucius? Xunzi? Han fie? The problem is paradoxical. Each point has truths, but is inevitably flawed too. "What behaviour causes human culture to thrive?" is open to many interpretations, some which you wouldn't like, I'm sure. Should we use fear or love to rule people? Both can work pretty well to be honest. One may not be more valid than the other.
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri When refering to ethics, the term "Golden Rule" is generally taken to mean "treat others as you yourself wish to be treated".
"One may not be more valid than the other." true. That is why consensus must be established.
As for which method of rule is best; that is just what is playing out in Libya, Egypt etc.
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer Hello, Yes, not all differences in thought lead to choas, but you could blame the influence of the West for the problems in Libya an Egypt. Perhaps they wouldn't want change because the grass looks greener. (just an example) I think it is futile to discuss this further. I will just say, my point from a truly scientific point of view, life is meaning less. Thousands of years human 'social development' and yet where are we?
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@OmoItsekiri The human race striving for more knowledge, everday advancing towards something. You live then you die. What is it all for? Doctors don't save lives, they prolong the inevitable, no I am not pessimistic lol. But from my point of view this life is pointless. All the knowledge in the world I could learn and there would still be more never satisfied, never truly fulfilled. After I die life goes on and I am lost to history, maybe not even making it to the books, like I never happened.
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer All I lived for is taken away just like that. That does not make sense to me, it isn't right. I believe the creation story bacause it make sense, there is something wrong with this world, as long as humans exist, corruption is ever present, nerver ending. When I die I will be with my father, who I am living for now. That longing for something more has already been partially filled, I'm justing waiting for heaven. I say anymore you can have the closing statment if you wish.
OmoItsekiri 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer yes
MrJcfolife 10 months ago
@MrJcfolife Thank you. My definition of good/morally right is something that promotes happiness, well-being or health OR minimises unnecessary harm or suffering OR both. What is yours?
UrukEngineer 10 months ago
@UrukEngineer Here is God's definition that no man is good :
In Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God''
In Romans 5:12 says " Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man , and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."
man is dying no matter the circumstances of your life, whether you are good or bad, morally good or evil
if God finds you unclean in his sight, may God show mercy upon you, that's why we all need Jesus
taroKID1 9 months ago
@taroKID1 No mate. That is not a definition of "good". That is just the christian dogma of self-loathing. You haven't put any thought into that answer.
What does it mean to be good/morally perfect?
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer There is no one on earth that is Good/or Morally Perfect so your question is out of the question. nobody would know what it means to be morally perfect or good because human beings can never good, although we are capable of doing good but our soul is spiritually dead. So what I am saying is that if you dont have Jesus in your life, your life of doing good would all be for nothing. you know what i am saying??
taroKID1 9 months ago
@taroKID1 Wow the religious virus IS strong in you, young Sky Walker.
Just because no one is perfect does not mean the definition I gave is invalid. How can you prove otherwise???
It feels good to do good stuff. Trust me, I feel very happy without "Jesus in my life". I set my own goals, develop my own moral path (conversations like this on YouTube really help).
I feel spiritually enriched by sunrises, my child's laugh, the company of friends - I have never felt more alive.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago 18
@UrukEngineer
When it comes to the question of "Will a good moral person go to heaven?" the answer is yes. Good moral people can go to heaven. However, the next question is. "When is good, good enough?" The answer is never. As human beings, we are imperfect. A quote from Tron Legacy "Nothing is as imperfect as our world." You can look at yourself and say, "Well I'm better than Hitler, a child molestor, rapist, Nazi, or whatever." But in the end we are still not good enough.
Darkwolf41 9 months ago
@Darkwolf41 "Good moral people can go to heaven" - not according to christian doctrine. You don't have to be good, just repent your "sins" and accept Jesus as your saviour.
"...in the end we are still not good enough" do you have the same approach to your kids? I hope not.
Get up of your knees, have some human dignity. It is not "pride" to want to act like an adult.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer
Which is why in the end. We need forgiveness. grace. and mercy. Because, we will never be good enough. But Christ is good enough. He lived a sinless life, died for our sins, and resurrected to prove that he was the Savior. Only by accepting his perfection can we ever be perfect enough. What i see (at least in one case), Atheists live in this mind set that they don't need God in their lives. Maybe even a lie. This pride is what sends them to hell not disbelief.
Darkwolf41 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer Yes, my friend. But this is not what Piper says... this is what God says. Can you see the value of that? Do you want to find God? He will be always (till you die) there to receive you as His own son. But do you want that? This is the only question you need to answer. Seek for Him. He's not hard to find at all! We can blindfold our eyes for anything... but there are always consequences.
I hope you make the best choice! Then, joy will last forever in your life!
ANDREPEIXOTOBIO 9 months ago
@ANDREPEIXOTOBIO Andre, whether god said it or Piper, it is still morally bankrupt.
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer You can think that... but who owns the truth? You?! Sorry, but I don't think so.
ANDREPEIXOTOBIO 9 months ago
@ANDREPEIXOTOBIO Andre, I am sorry, I don't follow you.
Can you understand the problem here?
Christians (and most other religions) have no independent standard by which they can assess whether something is "good/morally perfect". Without that standard, ANYTHING that they THINK god does or wants, considered to be "good".
Here Piper explains that it does not matter how "good" you are, it is whether you accept Jesus.
Can you follow my line of reasoning?
UrukEngineer 9 months ago
@UrukEngineer Almost. Anybody who believes in Christ, that he is God in the flesh, that he came to this Earth, healed the sick, made the blind see, rose the dead and died for our sins, and we TRULY believe that, then we can go to Heaven, regardless of your "religion!" And yes, a person can do good all days long, you cannot get to Heaven on good deeds alone.
OfficialSOIssues 9 months ago
@OfficialSOIssues What about all the people who lived before christianity was invented? What hope had they of reaching heaven when they had never heard about Jesus?
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer While Piper perchance makes that claim, I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. Personally, I think the Bible teaches something radically different...
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" (Romans 14:11)
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11)
Dadutta 8 months ago
@Dadutta Sorry, I don't follow the point you are making.
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer Here is the brief answer. The first person you have described is a man of faith. The second is a man of deeds. Both are good for Nothing. Why? "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (James 2:26, but you should read the entire James 2 to understand this).
But you might ask, "Well, why doesn't John mention this deeds part?" He probably already did in a past/future sermon. No one really likes to sit through hours of preaching, you know?
SungRok 8 months ago
@SungRok That may well be the biblical answer. But it still does not explain why it is fair.
The christian worldview is binar; heaven OR hell. There is no middle ground. It is also quite clear from this sermon that only believers in Jesus go to heaven - EVERYONE else goes to hell.
What did god intend for the souls of biliions of humans who were born and died without ever hearing about Jesus? Where does it say that THEY were saved from hell?
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer All I have is a Biblical answer. As for fairness, why did Christ, who even to a non-believer was a good man, have to die on that cross? I tell you, if you play with the question of what is fair and what is not, you will be stuck for life; I guarantee that nothing will satisfy you.
You contradict yourself: you are not satisfied with the Biblical answer I provided before, yet you want me to provide a Biblical statement about those who've never heard of Christ. Sure, I will provide it
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer Yes, it is heaven or it is hell. Do you or I know whether one will enter into heaven or suffer in hell? Nope, because the Bible states that there is only One who will judge. (Never is a Christian to think that the individual created his or her own path into heaven... There is only one way... Jesus Christ.) And so, what did God intend for those souls that never heard of Christ? If the Bible states there is only One judge, then what He does for these souls, you or I will never know.
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer Wait a second?! Didn't I just say that there is only One way?! Why do I seem to be contradicting myself?! No, I am not. There is indeed only One way.. but faith must come with deeds.. and you and I have been blessed to even hear about Him.. in other words, we who have been blessed with this message of a Savior, Christ is the way... BUT, as we await to be judged by our God and He chooses to let these souls you mention pass into heaven, who are you and who am I to say, "UNFAIR!" ?!?!
SungRok 8 months ago
@SungRok I know there is no answer in the bible to this, except that the entire human population before Jesus was born, has gone to hell. Their only crime? Dying before Jesus could "reach" them. God must have known this would happen...so why didn'y he at least give them the chance to save themselves by sending Jesus a couple of million years earlier?
How can this be the act of a loving god?
Why bother worshiping someone as cruel as that?
UrukEngineer 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer How do you know that they have gone to hell? Where in the Bible does it state that they went to hell? You have a distorted understanding of the Bible. He indeed gave them chances (the Commandments and Atonement via sacrifice), and He indeed commanded those whom he found fit to spread the word about God. Think Moses. Think King David. Think Daniel and his three friends in a foreign land. Think Jonah. Think of the prophets right before Christ's birth.
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer If you feel that God's message was not spread before Christ's birth, then you must have a problem not only with Christians, but also with Jews and with Muslims alike, for they believe that God's message was spread through these men. I urge you to re-read the Bible, most importantly with the willingness to read without any bias. Forget what other Christians and non-Christians have told you. Read for yourself. Let's chat again at another time when you have done so. God bless you.
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer Most of the time, Christians are like that older brother: we complain, we want more, we think we deserve salvation, we think we are righteous for what we have done. But Christ says, "NO!" in that parable. If I am to welcome a lost soul, then do not question me for I AM! So, if God says let those souls pass, then keep quiet believer; if God says that they can't, then keep quiet non-believer. Do not judge the Lord, but for one not to do so, one MUST trust in His will.
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer It's not easy to just trust, we all know that. That is the biggest difference between you and me: faith in Him. Do you trust in Him and His will? Or do you despise Him and want to argue about everything He has let happen? You don't have to answer that. It's your answer and your answer to Him. May I pray for you and for your relationship with Him? I will, but I hope you won't think that I do this because I feel good about myself. I don't; I just want to pray I guess. God Bless
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer
With all due respect, you don't seem to know anything about Orthodox Christian beliefs. 1. Everyone that existed before Jesus doesn't go to Hell. 2. Their only crime was not dying before Jesus was born. As a matter of fact, that's not even a crime. 3. No one saves themselves. Without going into too many details, God had followers who were counted righteous by Him before Jesus came to earth. However, even they are saved by Jesus' atonement on the cross.
machinethedean 6 months ago
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@machinethedean "Everyone that existed before Jesus doesn't go to Hell." Where is your evidence for that?
UrukEngineer 6 months ago
@UrukEngineer Do you know about the Parable of the Prodigal Son? There is one huge part that many people seem to forget. The prodigal son's older brother saw that his father celebrated a great feast for his return, and he became immensely upset. He questions his father, "How come you never did this for me when I've worked for you all this time without fault?!" The response: just by being with me, I've let you enjoy all that I have, but for this lost soul, let me welcome him.
SungRok 8 months ago
@UrukEngineer All have fallen short of the glory of God. It is God's grace that saves us, not our own righteousness...but, as a Christian, I struggle with this idea of forgiveness as well. However, to measure ourselves by our own morality and righteousness...we all fail in the sight of God.
BeforeTheShipSank 6 months ago
@BeforeTheShipSank What do you mean when you say that you "struggle with this idea of forgiveness as well"?
UrukEngineer 6 months ago
@UrukEngineer
Biblically speaking that's a false question. It's impossible for a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist to truly do good. Any "good" done outside of the power of God is as filthy as dirty rags in God's sight. The only reason a believer is able to do good is because God's spirit is working in them. As a matter of fact, even the "good" acts done by the non regenerate person( non Christian) is a result of God's COMMON grace in which EVERY human being experiences.
machinethedean 6 months ago
@machinethedean LOL, technically your statement is irrelevant regarding Atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods due to an absence of evidence.
Atheism says nothing about moral issues.
MY moral compass is best described as being rooted in humanism and I have a cogent definition of "good/morally perfect", unlike christians. They have NO useful definition of good, it is simply "what god tells them to do".
But how do you KNOW it is "good/morally perfect"?
UrukEngineer 6 months ago
@UrukEngineer
I'm almost positive whatever your own definition of "good" is can only be achieved by you at all is because of God's common grace. Biblically speaking, the only reason you even attempt to establish a moral compass is because of common grace.
machinethedean 6 months ago
@machinethedean There is no evidence for god's grace existing let alone inspiring my definition of "good/morally perfect". In fact using my definition and the statements in the bible, the christian god falls far short of "good". Therefore I if he/she did exist, this would not be the basis of their definition of good:
= something that promotes happiness, well-being or health OR minimises unnecessary harm or suffering OR both.
Would you agree with the definition...have a different one?
UrukEngineer 6 months ago
@UrukEngineer
I would disagree and say that there is evidence that God's grace exists. I'm sure you don't find this evidence convincing however and disagree. That's fine we'll agree to disagree on that point. As for the definition of "good', I would say that is defined by God's character. God's very nature/essence is good. Anything contrary to his will and nature would be "evil". Good can sometimes promote happiness and well-being and often minimizes suffering and harm. I'm sure we'd agree .
machinethedean 6 months ago
@machinethedean
Continued.
I'm sure our definitions would allow us to agree on many different acts being classified as "good" or "evil". Of course, we would obviously disagree on many things as well.
machinethedean 6 months ago
@machinethedean Can you spot your flawed logic?
"As for the definition of 'good', I would say that is defined by God's character."
How then can you tell that god is good?
...because god has the character of god?
Do you see the circular nature of your premise?
UrukEngineer 6 months ago 15
@UrukEngineer Circular? No - linear. God's attributes are all aseitic (derived from Himself), and, as such, the image of God stamped on ourselves reflects that character, even if in a warped way since the fall. God is good by definition; we don't know good from bad apart from His gracious revelation as such both in the created order, rationally and through Scripture. There is no moral codes which exist independently of God; He established them in true freedom, derived from His nature+attributes.
va3svd 1 month ago
@va3svd Mate, your reasoning is SO circular, you are almost up your own backside.
How can god be good by definition...please just think about it before you go all evangelical on my arse.
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer I've already explained how the idea of goodness in this world is merely reflective of God's character, and His goodness exists entirely asietically. If you don't want to believe that, fine; but don't pretend that it's merely circular logic because it isn't. The only thing happening here is you unwilling to consider a viewpoint you've already written off.
va3svd 1 month ago
@va3svd "the idea of goodness in this world is merely reflective of God's character". You have no means of showing god's actions are themselves "good"...because god did them.
By this definition, ANYTHING you think that god tells you to do is "good", eg fly planes into buildings.
It is a flawed yardstick for assessing goodness.
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer God's goodness is manifest in not only everything He does but everything He is. He is the foundation of what we know to be good; i.e. self-sacrifice is "good", and the very existence of it in this world is only derived from God's own attributes.
God didn't tell people to fly planes into buildings so that can hardly be used against him, can it?
Honestly, there are good atheistic arguments out there but so few atheists actually use them. It's a joke.
va3svd 1 month ago
@va3svd God also commanded genocide, infanticide, endorsed slavery and is overtly homophobic.
Without an external hairdryer-of-reality to blow over lightweight thinking, individuals need only convince themselves that they THINK god wants it and this gives them devine sanction.
Do you think it was just a coincidence that the 911 bombers were religiously motivated?
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer Really? "God commanded genocide" etc? Is that the best you can do? Such facile argumentation, no appreciation of detail or context. And the "homophobic" is downright laughable; I suppose God is kleptophobic as well, by that logic.
Just because some terrorists (Muslims, mind you - not Christians, although Christian terrorism tragically has existed as well) claim to be speaking for God doesn't, you know, mean that they actually were.
You're grossly underinformed on this topic.
va3svd 1 month ago
@va3svd Genocide; what do you think the Flood was?
Homophobic;
Genesis 19: 4-5
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13, 23
Romans 1:24-32
I Corinthians 6:9, 10
I Timothy 1:9-11
The reason religion gives succour to the fanatic is that it protects itself from real-world scrutiny. God is hidden from audit by being "metaphysical", adherents claim god IS the yardstick of good. Religion brooks no scrutiny. History is littered with examples of ho power without scrutiny is invariably abused.
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer You know, for a guy claiming to be so logical, you throw out a lot of ad hominem rhetoric. Notice how I don't have to resort to that? And the misrepresentation: "Religion brooks no scrutiny" - yeah, I guess the Reformation never happened, huh? Honestly - you don't realize absolute statements get you in trouble?
As far as the "homophobia", there's a difference between God disapproving of something and fearing it. "Thou shalt not steal" is not "kleptophobic". Honestly...
va3svd 1 month ago
@va3svd "for a guy claiming to be so logical, you throw out a lot of ad hominem rhetoric" - where have I dismissed your argument by cynically attacking you directly? I have read and re-read the comments and can’t find any evidence to substantiate your claim.
Absolute statements are the stock-in-trade of the religious. Are you willing to conceed that there might not be a god, or are you ABSOLUTELY sure that there is one?
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@va3svd The christian god does not not just "disappove" of homosexuality. He commands that "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13).
Do you agree with god, that they should be put to death? Or do you think this reaction is too extreme?
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer It's not just homosexuality. Idolotry (which everyone is guilty of) calls for death. That's what is amazing about Christ's death. God took on flesh to take our guilt upon himself and absolve us from it. Considering you are taking pre-grace scripture out of context then I'm assuming you are trolling and this response will be worth less than nothing to you.
lot3kness 1 month ago
@lot3kness You can't see the obvious flaw can you?
The laws of physics do not demand death for homosexuality/idolotry etc. It is the christian god that insists on murdering us. So why be grateful to him for murdering his own son so that he doesn't have to murder us?
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer there are things to say that run longer than a comment on youtube that could serve to make the point I'm going to make, but we are already at an impasse.
Put simply, if God created man, then it is his right to set his laws in accordance to his wishes. Nice rebuttal referencing the laws of physics, enjoy observing them over your lifetime and watching how they will continually change as we realize how much more we don't understand.
lot3kness 1 month ago
@lot3kness I'm not troll. The OT is still the word of god is it not? Jesus specifically refused to amend the OT, not "one iota". Therefore it is wrong to discount the wickedness of the OT as being pre-grace statements. Christianity is rather stuck with it. As for the "laws" of physics, they are continually refined through a pocess of open-minded inquiry. They approximate to Reality ever more closely. Is that not more honest that claiming irrefutable absolute truth from 2600 years ago?
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer You are clearly trolling, it doesn't take long to see that.
I did not say the OT is not valid, I said out of context. The bible is the sum of all it's parts, not a scripture here and a scripture there. The OT's wickedness is paramount to that story, for realizing the need for a savior.
In regards to your comment on the laws of physics. They are laws, but not constants. They do not gorvern anything but serve as the sum of consensus and observation; and as such can be refuted.
lot3kness 1 month ago
@lot3kness Given that god instructs his followers to commit genocide, deliberately hardens the hearts in order to punish them etc how on earth can the OT be seen as proving the need for a saviour? Even taken in its widest context, the only thing that needs saving are humans - from Yahwey. When you excuse leaders for their crimes you start sliding down a slippery slope.
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@UrukEngineer I'll start by saying, God does not actively instruct genocide. Again, out of context.
You are welcome to what you reason for yourself, a life with a God that one can hold accountable, lest he be accountable too I'm sure is a lot easier to live. The bible is the Gospel, it all points to the cross. If you took the time to understand what living a gospel centered life was you would see the issue is not in the message, but it's practitioners.
Take care.
lot3kness 1 month ago
@lot3kness I can see that you, and many others, derive a great deal of happiness and personal support from your belief.
Peace
UrukEngineer 1 month ago
@machinethedean This is not a question of semantics. It is actually why I feel unsafe when I see the religious blindly following the edicts of their clergy such as Piper.
Unless you have a clear understanding of what is "good", then ANYTHING you or your priests THINK god wants you to do is "good" in your eyes. It is EXACTLY the same lack of reasoning that flies planes into buildings.
UrukEngineer 6 months ago
@machinethedean
Continued. Common grace curbs/restrains the evil hearts of men/women. It makes sure fallen mankind retains a conscience indicating the differences between right and wrong. It makes sure that human society doesn't become completely intolerable/ungovernable by following their own corrupted hearts/minds. This common grace is truly the only reason this world is able to function at some level of order at all.God, in his mercy, gives this to protect His people (followers of Christ)
machinethedean 6 months ago
@machinethedean I'd like to stress the Hitchen's challenge at this point. "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer."
OxbowisaMstie 6 months ago
@UrukEngineer been a while since I have been on youtube, all that Christ said, did and achieved was good. If someone agrees with Jesus or Yeshua then they believe in him. Jesus said if you believe in him you will do as he says. We are saved by faith, given by grace of God and our faith is shown in our works. Our works do not save us, our deeds do not save us, although they represent us.
The mans name was not even Jesus, Envoking his name is not a magic spell as many people believe.
Temptuous2112 3 months ago
@Temptuous2112 I'm sorry, it has been sometime since I was last on this web page. Was your comment in response to something specific that I wrote?
UrukEngineer 3 months ago
@UrukEngineer You asked if a good person can go to hell, if a person is good he will believe in Christ. Read the sermon on the mount and see if there is anything there that is vile. The only hitch is folks who say, "I believe in God" Believe in whatever they desire. "God" is simply a word, Jesus is simply a word. What we "believe in" is the meaning of the word, the "personality" behind the word. Heck, it could be Bob, or Larry, "a rose by any other name"?
Temptuous2112 3 months ago
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@Temptuous2112 "...if a person is good he will believe in Christ"
Your definition implies that no one from any other religion can possibly be "good". Is that your intention? If so, can you see what a breathtakingly arrogant statement that is?
UrukEngineer 3 months ago
@Temptuous2112 A good person can't go to hell. God says "There is none that are good, not even one." The good that you a using as a messure is man vs man. You may be better than a man but even the best of men are evil their hearts are deceptively wicked. Judge yourself against God however and your own self rightousness is as filthy as rags. We have all sinned and fall short of His glory. Jesus paid our sin debt for us, the only thing that can give us peace with God is to except His sacrifice 4us
Moving2U 1 month ago
If we're going to talk about the Old Testis' God. The question should be whether we should forgive god. The character of satan it's barely in the picture compared to the genocides god tells his followers to commit in his name. Of course, god got his act together by the time he sent his son to earth.
mku17ra 1 year ago
Hey, Johnny Boy, it doesn't work, it's all nonsense. & you equivocate my transgressions with that of a child molester? It figures
That's what I "love" about you wise preachers. You have the audacity to say the most outrageous rubbish with the utmost confidence
Ignorance most often begets confidence rather than humility & you showcase this fact so very well
My father often said, "Don't piss on my leg & tell me it's raining"
That's better advise than all the hogwash you've ever spouted
LetReasonPrevail1 1 year ago
i love this man! what wisdom
BELIEVE2LIVE00 1 year ago