The Doctrine Of Election by John Piper - Part 2

[MsHannelore]

I am just coming to understand election more clearly and Piper is right about how this biblical understanding awakens something inside us. It makes me feel more in awe and in Love with God and I stand amazed by His Almight.

[brendos444]

@candiceevans1 Of course the word elect used by the Bible writers means something very different to what Piper and Calvin take it to mean. This is why the doctrine was completely unheard of before the reformation. Additionally, the hell you are thinking of , a literal firepit beneath the surface of the earth, was never taught by the early church. It came in around 1000AD. The hell taught in catholocism and protestantism was rejected by the early church fathers.

[rescued2311]

disbelieving this doctrine doesnt take away Gods sovereignty. God has to give us opportunity and the right to make a choice to follow him. Without his sovereign plan of redemption, his sacrifice, his sovereign grace , we would have no way to make a decision.we would still be stuck, unable to fulfill the law. So to say that disbelieving election robs God of His sovereign will makes no sense. Ultimately without His will to offer us a way out, we had nothing to decide on. So God is sovereign still.

[brendos444]

For all Piper's zeal about truth and doctrine and railing against cultural influences, he fails to address or see the fundamentalism that his teachings bear fruit in. It should have occurred to him and other hyper Calvinists that Jesus was not a fundamentalist. Not only this but the fact that the doctrine of election was completely absent from the early church, always rejected by Eastern Orthodoxy, the oldest Christian tradition and finds first taught by Calvin.

[brendos444]

Calvinism finds its root in the teachings of Augustine of Hippo. The doctrine of election finds no support within the wider narrative of the entire canon of scripture. It is based on a series of proof texts. Piper's pastoral notes about election basically says that election produces fundamentalists. Also, from my experience, rather than being God centred, those who believe in this doctrine are very arrogant and obsessed with their own salvation rather than God's wider purposes in the world

[hellokitty35100]

i've never heard for this so can someone help me out here...

[HermitintheRain]

LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever. ~ Psalm 131

[Domodeath]

Guys,,, i'm sorry but the teaching of election is in the Scripture... its just a fact...

[theflarpus]

I am so awesome because I discovered who God is and I chose Him. I choose to do things that please God out of the goodness of my own heart. I am so good and just and right that I had a vision that God thanked me for being such and put his hand on my shoulder, as he declared to the angels listening, "Give this man the glory due me for surly if all men were like this one my son Jesus would not have had to die." I awoke and thought to myself, truer words were never spoken. I am awesome !!!

[PureGraceEvangelism]

Religous spirit - they bind heavy burdens hard to bear & lay them on men’s shoulders they themselves will not move them w/one of their fingers. For u shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for u neither go in urselves nor do u allow those who are entering to go in" Matt 23 When u hear a teaching that puts fear in ur heart that is not the Gospel. The good news of Jesus liberates His perfect Love removes all fear , imparts faith & exalts the finished work of Jesus on the cross

[ichbindarren]

Calvinism is elitism. It would be nice to believe that I am "chosen" and I somehow have something better than others. But the truth is non of us are different, just some of us have allowed god to come into our lives and allow him to give us a new heart, and depart from out old hardened heart.

[thnguyen24]

so God doesn't have control over your heart, and he sits in heaven crying "I love him so much, and I want to bring him to heaven, but too bad, he doesn't want me, so i'm hopeless"?

[ichbindarren]

God is in control of everything, so he could easily control our hearts if he wanted. However he allows us to choose to love him because that is true love.

[thnguyen24]

I was taught what you believe, but i realized that it's a lie now. How do you define "true love?" today's culture teaches that true love means giving freedom, but that's not the definition of the Bible "The Lord disciplines whom he loves" (Hebrews 12:6) And "discipline" means going against one's will. God loves us by going against our will of going to hell and brings us to heaven instead.

[ichbindarren]

@thnguyen24 Calvinism says that people are God's puppets and he forces some people to love him, Is that even considered love? You took Hebrews 12:6 out of context. That is talking about how  God guides us through our spiritual walk, this verse isnot speaking about how we come to faith.

[thnguyen24]

I don't believe Calvinism says that people are God's puppets, but if so, then so what? He's God and He defines what's right and wrong and what's love and hate.

I know that the context of Hebrew 12:6 is not about conversion, so I just want to say that God is willing to go against man's will for the good of man. Thus, why wouldn't God imposes his will on people for their good, especially in case of salvation? Don't you think salvation is the most important compared to other disciplinary?

[ichbindarren]

@thnguyen24 I think it is okay to agree to dissagree. Even though we may not agree on some of the points of how people come to Christ, we both agree on what is most important. We both believe in Jesus, and we understand what he has done for us, I may not agree with Calvinism, but I dont believe it is a salvation issue.

[woelfl22]

@thnguyen24 This completely denies what scripture teaches. God draws us by the Holy Spirit. We either believe or reject. Cant you see that God foresaw who would choose and reject Him. This is called the elect not because God forced them to choose Him, but because He knew who would choose Him. Why do you try to explain so emphatically the wisdom of God. The bible teaches that God is truly sovereign, but at the same time man has a choice. Dont explain, just trust scripture!!!

[thnguyen24]

@woelfl22 what you just did contradict your last sentence. Why don't you just accept "the elect" to be "the elect"?

Man has some choice, but not all. I can choose to use a PC or a MAC. I can choose to use a Blackberry or an iPhone. But I cannot choose where to be born, or how long I live. In the same way, the Bible does shows that man can choose in many aspect, but when it comes to salvation, the Bible says the opposite of free will.

[thnguyen24]

@woelfl22 John 1:12-13 says it clearly that children of God is born by the will of God only: "But all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who WERE born, NOT of blood NOR of the will of the flesh NOR of the will of man, BUT of God."

[parakeethands]

"God is in control of everything, so he could control our hearts if he wanted." That is a contradiction, God is in fact in control of everything. Is your heart a thing that God created? Then He is in control of it ultimately. No one would choose God left to their own wicked hearts, thus the reason for the cross. True love is defined in that He first loved us and gave His Son for us that we would be justified through faith in Christ alone. There is none that seeks after God on their own.

[parakeethands]

"some of us have allowed".....that is taking credit for something that God will not allow anyone to take credit for. god takes the initiative in regenerating a person because left to our own devices we will never turn to God.

[ichbindarren]

@parakeethands Your right about God being able to control everything, I never disputed that issue because the answer is clear. The choice to choose God is simple because his word tells us of the consequences if we dont choose him, eternity in hell. Who wants that? Surely most of us realized this when we became Christians. I agree that God loved us before we loved him, that is clear because he knew of us before we were created.

[ichbindarren]

@parakeethands God did take the initiative by send Jesus to the cross, no we need to take the initiative to understand what he did for us. Salvation is not a "secrete knowlege" only given to a few, the offer is extended to all.

People must believe that Jesus is the Christ to be saved (John 8:24; John 14:6). The greek word for "believe" is "pistevo" which is a verb. The act of believing requires action from an individual, belief cannot be instated in a person under any other circumstances.

[parakeethands]

Please define "all" in context of Scripture.

[ichbindarren]

If you ask almost any christian we will say that one of the biggest reasons we are christians is because we dont want to go to hell. This desire not to go to hell certainly doesnt require any predestination, it is just common sense because we dont want to go to hell.

[screwstonsoulja]

if your serving the lord and trying to live for him just because you dont want to go to hell then you need to re evaluate why your a christian. I serve him out of love not fear, i serve him because im grateful that he brought me out of death and into life.

[ichbindarren]

Ideally every christian would serve the lord out of gratefulness for their salvation at all times during their life. However a christian certainly will not feel that way at every day of their life. During the toughest times in life, it may be other things such as the fear of hell that keeps us hanging on.

[911TruthSeeker91]

i agree with you to a certain extent. fear of hell is existent in christians, and in most cases it leads a person to repentence. but it shouldnt be the only reason why a person follows Jesus, otherwise it could lead to a "salvation by works" lifestyle.

[tgillspy]

cavinism is pharisaical and very wicked and prevents from having a relationship with Jesus Christ in the kingdom- the cross is not limited

[geneUA]

I don't know... it does the opposite for me :)

[agentorangetechno]

Calvinism has taught me that salvation is of the Lord.,

and no., Calvinsim is not evil., it is the gospel.

just because you do nt understand it., doesnt make it wrong.

and you dont understand it.,

i know by your one comment.

so dont bash something you are ignorant too.

calvinism teaches peseverance more than most other church's/

[woelfl22]

@agentorangetechno Calvinaism taught you this???? How about the Word of God!! Stop following the doctrines of men and remember that God is so infinite in His wisdom that He can be sovereign and we can have a choice at the same time. Man tries to explain, scripture teaches both, just trust in what you read in the bible and trust God.

[petemillner]

What a dreadful thing to say.