Deprogramming Jehovah's Witnesses - Interview With Charlie and Brother X - Ohio - Part 1 of 3

[RioAbajoBelen]

We have a disfellowshipped family member living with us and trying to get back into the club. Once you witness this first hand, for a year, and watch how it is so destructive.....you'll never join a club like this again.

You really do have freedom to worship if you allow yourself to be free.

[thesangster]

Not a true statement about Seventh-day Adventist, specifically, shunning, and avoiding speaking to former Seventh-day Adventist. We look down on other faiths that practice this, so this is a straw-man fallacy. We can vote a person from being a BOOK member, but not from coming to church, or would we be in trouble for speaking to a former member, no matter how much they disagree with us. So that isn't true.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster Voting someone out of the membership of the Adventist church is identical to Watchtower announcing a disfellowshipped one. Watchtower does not and cannot prevent someone from coming to the kingdom hall; therefore, the argument stands and has not been proven as disingenuous in its assertions. The SDAs also have identical secret "elder meetings," where the rank and file members are not allowed to attend.

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques That is not what I'm disagreeing with. What I'm disagreeing with is the idea that the individual is outcast and cannot be spoken to by other members. That isn't true. So is not identical, it can be similar, but not identical. With JWs, if one is of the members are seen speaking to one that is disfellowshipped is liable of becoming one also, not so with SDAs. About secret elder meetings, I don't know anything about that. I'll try to find out for you, I have elder friends.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster I know the spiel with SDA. They've attempted to recruit me enough times. They do not spend time with those written out of the book by "voting." Does a rank and file member have anything to do with the voting? No. It's a high control group - a club. If you are voted out, the other members "know" not to associate with such ones. They "know" because it has been drilled into their heads. As far as secret elder meetings - any meeting where nominal members may not attend is secret.

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques "They do not spend time with those written out of the book by "voting." Does a rank and file member have anything to do with the voting? No." - you lost me there, I don't understand your point.

"If you are voted out, the other members "know" not to associate with such ones. They "know" because it has been drilled into their heads." - Can you send me information on that? That would be helpful, thanks.

God bless,

Stan

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster

"...the position of the majority group of sane leadership which is determined to put the breaks on any members who seek to hold views divergent from that of the responsible leadership of the denomination." Eternity, September, 1957

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques This quote doesn't sound like what you're accusing SDAs of, to me, how can you break that down from this quote alone to show that "members 'know' not to associate with such ones." How do you interpret that view from this quote of Eternity, Sept. 57? I don't see the connection, unless you believe that "put the breaks on" means to disassociate. Help me out. Thanks

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster Well, what else does "put the breaks on" mean? If it said, "put the brakes on," then it would mean something else. Is "breaks" in the context of how it is stated something that only SDAs understand; a type of "loaded language"? That sure sounds like what the two SDAs that visit me on occasion mean when they say "avoid them." Of course, I hear all the time from JWs that JWs do not shun either. Therefore, it does not surprise me when an SDA student tells me the same thing.

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques "Of course, I hear all the time from JWs that JWs do not shun either. Therefore, it does not surprise me when an SDA student tells me the same thing." - Look, don't lump me up with other groups, I am truly telling you what it sounds to me. I asked you respectfully, I really hope you caught that. Now, to me, "put the breaks on" sounds like, "to put a stop to" not "avoid". It's been done to me by elders in bible studies many times, they stop me from spreading confusion.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster Um . . that would be correct if it said "brakes" instead of "breaks."

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques good point.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster Let me get this straight; wasn't it YOU that lumped yourself into the SDA group? Or am I missing something? Also, How exactly would the "sane leadership . . . put the brakes on . . divergent" individuals? Divergent sounds a lot like JW "apostate" loaded language to me. Is "divergent" a word SDAs use often?

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques "Let me get this straight; wasn't it YOU that lumped yourself into the SDA group? Or am I missing something?" - With the SDA group, yes, NOT WITH JWs. So please do not lump me with JWs, as if I am trying to ignore an act I really don't see that we should be accused of. I am sincerely asking, not avoiding your points.

Divergent is one who differs from somethings, not apostate. Apostate has a different meaning.

[thesangster]

@thesangster Well, from my personal experience, there are people I know that had left the faith, and they are still my friends today. I am not considered to be an apostate for doing so. So this is why I find it very difficult for me to accept this view. JWs, on the other hand, are not like that. You cannot even say, "hello", to an apostate according to them. So SDAs do not experience this, at least from my perspective.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster Thanks for explaining (apostate). Please tell me something: What exactly is an apostate to an SDA, and what does one have to do to become one? Thanks.

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques I can't really say what it means to an SDA perse, but I can only state what it means in general. I hear that term used a lot with JWs, but practically never with SDAs, at least so far in my experience. Apostate is "a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc", and it is "of or characterized by apostasy". The Shepherd Rod founder "Victor Houteff", I believe, was considered an apostate, and I think "Desmond Ford". However, we can speak to them, and befriend them.

[propagandatechniques]

@thesangster I am going to send you a link to an article posted on the adventistreview web site: "Is Church Discipline Still Needed" and am going to ask for your analysis of the article. I am going to ask you to identify some key questions this article should raise.

[thesangster]

@propagandatechniques I got it. I'll reply when I get a chance. God bless, and thank you.

Stan

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 You said, "If I were a robot I wouldn't of even wasted my time on commenting you idiot."

I am curious what your puppet handler elders would say if they knew you were leaving comments like this in my inbox. Plus, you told me to leave you alone. Do JWs leave people alone when disturbing their privacy at their homes?

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 You said: "I removed my comments, because I regretted wasting my time with someone like you. You're too stubborn and you have too much pride to listen to anyone else's opinions."

I'd say this comment makes not only Jehovah proud, but also your cult handlers. I've demonstrated facts here in video form. You called it fake. When asked for proof, you claimed I have too much pride to listen to your "opinions." I heard your opinions, and still see no evidence to back them.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 You said, "Sweetheart, just leave me alone and get off because do you see what I'm doing right now??.. I'm talking my OWN words. If I were a robot I wouldn't of even wasted my time on commenting you idiot. First off, YOU can't call me fake since you have no idea what you're talking about you've probably only been in there for like a few weeks maybe even a month, but you still have no idea what you're talking. end of. YOU get you're facts straight."

I was in 15 years.

[pghdjmarty]

And, Nessie, it's the same process for a disfellowshipped one and one who disassociates themselves. You can't just come to the KH,walk in, and say "I'M BACK!" If that was the case, JWs could disassociate themselves, just take some time off and live as worldly people and once they've had their fun, return to the meetings. Since we now know you're a JW, you might want to research your religion...someone's been lying to you! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and you're proving it.

[pghdjmarty]

@nessiecullen1212 "@pghdjmarty Actually, disfellowshipped ones are MADE to leave because they have disgraced Jehovah's name and the disassociated ones choose to leave but they are aloud to come back, if they feel like they need to, I know this because my Aunt is disassociated. Actually, I am one. Baptized in 06. Currently, having 3 bible studies who are very interested in the truth." Which is it...are you one or do you know one? Now who's lying? Who should the posters believe? LIAR!

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 I made the video, and your comments are not only defamatory, but also false and misleading. Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a choice, which is what my point has been from the very beginning. Many are in it against their will, due to the shunning policy of ones that resign. You cannot get out without being branded "disfellowshipped," and "apostate." This is the earmark of destructive cults; and, I will fight it until it is out of business.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Lia, why are you removing your posts? You admitted that disassociated ones are treated like disfellowshipped ones because they "know the rules." And the rule is exactly what; that you cannot leave? Can you say "Hotel California"? "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave." Yeah, but it's not a destructive, homewrecking cult that forces people to remain in it against their will, under threat of expulsion (shunning) by family and friends.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Wouldn't a person that disassociates be disfellowshipping herself; therefore, shunned? You mentioned that a DAed one "starts over like a DFed one." Wouldn't starting over be more like a "newly interested one"? Why aren't "newly interested ones" shunned, yet, ones that return from being DAed are shunned? Can you please explain the reason; and compare it with the prodigal son illustration and how the son's father treated him when he returned, and why Watchtower Inc is different?

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Are disassociated ones that are "aloud [sic] to come back" made to re-study the bible, and face shunning until reinstated again, just like a disfellowshipped person? If so, then can someone simply resign from the Watchtower Society without facing shunning?

[pghdjmarty]

@nessiecullen1212 So, what you're saying is that if you disassociate yourself you're not treated like a disfellowshipped person? And obviously you are just defending the JWs. Anyone who knows  anyone who has disassociated themselves they are treated as apostates because they CHOSE to leave the JWs. They are labeled as apostates because they" have turned their back on Jehovah". But then again, that was in my congregation...we all know that the JWs vary from congregation to congregation.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Aha! It's fake because you've seen this type of stuff before. Perhaps if you weren't living a lie you would have no reason to mistrust everything you see. The fact you think it's fake tells me that it's messing with your head. The fact you've resorted to name calling like the Watchtower handlers tells me you have no argument. Prove it's fake.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Whatever you need to think to convince yourself that what I demonstrated in this video is fabricated is fine with me. I can assure you though that the place was the Harvest Inn parking lot - Pine Bush, NY; the event was a tour of Watchtower Farms; and, the two brothers in the video were from an Ohio congregation that I never met. Also, if you doubt the video's authenticity, read the other comments here and see that others can easily identify the truth of what they are seeing.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Christ told me not to follow any claiming to be "anointed" (Christs).

"Many for shall come in the name of me, saying: I am the Anointed; and many they shall deceive" (Mt 24:5) . . . "Not therefore go you after them" (Lu 21:8). (Emphatic Diaglott).

Do you follow men that claim to be anointed (Christs)? Yes or no? Who will be destroyed for disobedience to the Christ, and for following false Christs? You or me?

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 First, let me offer my sympathies to you and your family. I am sorry to hear you've been under the mind control your entire life. That would explain why you cannot understand that ones that are baptized that simply turn in their resignation are branded "apostates" and it often has nothing to do with them being "bad" at all. They simply want out of the cult, yet cannot leave. It's a corporation that you cannot resign from without losing your family and friends.

[propagandatechniques]

@nessiecullen1212 Oh yeah, we staged the entire thing. I just happened to know where to find a couple of actors that also happen to know all the Watchtower jargon and thought terminating cliches.

[pghdjmarty]

Some people do not realize that, disassociated or disfellowshipped, you face the same disciplinary actions if you leave the JWs. You have no choice. You cannot just "walk away" as I tried, because as soon as the JWs find out that you have violated even the slightest of their tenets, you're an "apostate" even if you have NEVER spoken against the JWs. Once you realize that these are ALL rules made up by the JWs, it doesn't matter anymore. They are THEIR rules, not the Bible's rules.

[MsAgnosticatheist]

The problem is that they allow for 10 year olds to get baptized, as if a 10 knows what they are getting themselves into. I remember elders telling my partents that even children will die during armagedon if they weren't baptized. I don't understand how this is right.

[propagandatechniques]

@MsAgnosticatheist I agree. It's not right. It's a verbal agreement with a legal corporation. In the United States Constitution there is a clause called "infancy doctrine" which is a legal statute that nullifies ANY contract - verbal or written - made between overreaching adults and improvident children. All children baptized into this religion as children were wrongfully taken advantage of due to their youthful shortsightedness.

[hijackedvideo]

@MsAgnosticatheist YA WHATS FUCKING BETTER DOING IT AT BIRTH? AND NO THEY DON'T DO IT AT 10 YEARS OLD ALTHOUGH IT HAS HAPPEND BEFORE. HOM MANY CHURCHES BABTIZED AT BIRTH? COME ON TELL ME . HOW MANY RELIGIONS BABTIZED AT BIRTH? MANY SO STFU. AND A CULT OMG ITS NOT A FUCKING CULT . LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF CULT FAGGOTS. JEHOVAH'S WITNESS ARE NOT A CULT LOL. IF JWS ARE CULT THAN FOR SURE SO IS CATHOLICS , MORMONS , ECT .UR ALL UNINFORMED FAGGOTS IF YOU BELIEVE THIS SHIT. DO SOME HOMEWORK,

[MsAgnosticatheist]

@hijackedvideo I don't know if you're a JW, someone studying with them, or just a JW with a foul mouth. Anyway, yes it is a cult, no i don't believe in any man made religions, and yes all religions are cults, technically. Jehovah's, Mormons, Amish, and Scientology for example just happen to use mind control techniques and emotional manipulation with the shunning, disconnecting, disfellowshipping to keep members trapped. Mainstream religions are just as whacky as any, just more popular.

[EelSacul]

It's fun to see the mental acrobatics JWs would use just to defend their religion. An elder outright lied on camera and they don't believe that their religion is dishonest.

[propagandatechniques]

@EelSacul Yes; you have to laugh on part 3 where he says, "I don't let everyone see it, but it's not SECRET."

[mrsgmason]

Thank you, Amen, Amen excellent reporting, GOD Speed.

[propagandatechniques]

@mrsgmason You're welcome. There's another one you may like "Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth, but they can't tell the truth."

[Jeorney]

"There is no freedom of speech. There is no right of association. Love is forbidden without state approval".

This was found in a wikileak to do with the "corporation as a nation state" and has very cultish message. "no right of association" leads to shunning and social isolation. The part about love is also chilling. There is more to this leak that is equally disturbing.

[Fersomling]

This nice Jehovah lady gave me some Watchtower books and I find them very useful. I use them to keep my window open.

[jennyrgar]

i think its possible to get religious people to realize its fraud, as even jesus had an opinion about religion. but if religoin is destroyed, those who are trying to find the origin of their 'care for others' will run to spiritualy. you should target the ones who know how they effect others. target the highest of the high, not followers. not talking god, im talking those who have answers to your questions

[LHYPEZ]

I notice how he says that "apostates" are out to hinder those in the "organisation"

ELDERS MEETINGS...i cant just walk into those!

HANG ON 1 SECOND...IM ONLY 15 BUT EVEN I KNOW ELDERS HAVE THAT BOOK THAT IF YOU LEAVE BEING AN ELDER IT GETS TAKEN AWAY!

[propagandatechniques]

@LHYPEZ Yes, this is controlled information within. This cloisters (isolates) the minds of the elders.

[anni742]

@archeng123 ... yea me too,  and many others unfortunately.

[luxfair]

religion = mental illness

[DrGiggles68]

@luxfair here's a quote that came to me while riding the bus yesterday: "Spirituality is communing with the Divine---Religion is just PRETENDING to"

[rahel345]

i believe may be his followers don't know anything about this. This is a good eye opener.Thanx for posting.

[propagandatechniques]

@rahel345

Did you watch the other two parts? It gets really crazy.

[De5054]

Not once do these 2 ding-dongs get the bible out! Unbelievable. Why worry about 'apostates'.? Their club can implode without any faux-enemy bogeymen input.

Seriously, Isn't that the whole deal.? Bible students.? That would involve getting the damn book out. Hardly God -fearing bible students.

Not exactly young. They didn't even wave a bible. Paraphrasing part verses seems to be good enough for the Jonadab class/ great crowd et'c. They didn't even show 1 verse.

Dumb as a bag of wet mice.

[De5054]

Quote PT "Dubs aren't used to being questioned. They're used to doing all the talking...."

Glaringly correct PT. Not only 'not used to being questioned', but they don't  like being questioned. Utterly arrogant when squared with the fact that these marionettes are militantly non-intellectual.

Great job. && it's a picture to clock the face of that 'elder' when you rhyme-off the name of the 'elder' MI-5, eyes-only book.

'Always gives me a chuckle.

"How d'you know about that !!" *Laughs*

[propagandatechniques]

@De5054

I'm glad you liked it. I'll admit it was fun dropping the M1-5 bomb on him. =)

I don't even think Charlie knew what was happening, lol!

[propagandatechniques]

@archeng123

Well, me too. Are you going to be okay?

[propagandatechniques]

@archeng123

You have to believe in these things to be perceived as not "weak" in the occult group. If you do not believe these things, it's best not to talk about it in the occult community. Secrecy and concealing feelings and information becomes an integral part of this religion. If you persist in voicing disagreement with these tenets, you will eventually bring chastisement upon yourself from within the occult environment.

[De5054]

Well gonzo-ed. I can't believe these "GOD APPOINTED 'elders' " stood for so long. Theyre gettin dumber by the year.

The only correct thing white guy got was the def of 'apostate' - 'A standing away from'. Exact && correct. The same route meaning as 'eccentric'. Concentric - centre of the circle, 'eccentric', - outer edges /outside the circle. Hmm. Interesting he got that right.

In UK, a JW saying was "staying on w/ one unreceptive was like 'sawing the horns off a goat, to make it a sheep".

[propagandatechniques]

@De5054

Dubs aren't used to being questioned. They're used to doing all the talking and then wiping - as in, dust off their feet.

[inspirediam]

A former member wants to "tear down" .....hmm...could it be that a former member...(oh he is a ministerial servant)...could it be that a former member wants to expose the organization....you are right on the "secret knowledge" stmt...I hope this individual thinks about these points further.

[propagandatechniques]

@inspirediam

I'm getting a lot of flack on my "Power of Suggestion" video because i said I believe they printed' Why Not Just End It All?" intentionally.

[inspirediam]

Ahhhh, I would say CASE AND POINT. You got your point across, even though they want to pin it on you...ugh...

[inspirediam]

He supooses...he don't know...but he is in charge of dis-fellowshiping??? That's a good question...I hope you planted some seeds here..."our bus is about to leave." lol

[jozz200]

right at the start of this vid he says, "it wouldnt be right for me to speak against another religion" that is total BS in their publications and in their meetings they Repeatedly denigrate and criticise other religions! I know I was there

[propagandatechniques]

What he meant was that it wouldn't be right for him to denigrate another religion on camera.

[propagandatechniques]

There's a condition called cognitive dissonance that occurs where the people give the appearance they are in a trance. It occurs when they are trying to adhere to two conflicting beliefs, e.g. - Jesus showed love for all people. We must hate the apostate with a deep loathing. When you ask them to explain this, you'll get the deer in the headlights, blank expression. Usually the pupils will dialate.

[JaedomHexen]

It's funny but I still smell the paper they used in the publications, brings back false feelings of guilt and anxiety. Ever wonder why they smelled so different from others? Smell triggers memory and emotional responses. Everything within the Hall is designed to suggest and control emotional and thought process. It is strangely tactical how they protect themselves from being illegalized, there would be alot of zealous followers to support them regardless of conviction.

[propagandatechniques]

Man, do I ever know the smell you are talking about. I was one mile from where the publications were being printed in Wallkill, NY.

[JamaicanPlum]

Believe who you will, I am telling the truth and I'm sure you'll find many other ex-members who have had the same experience. Yes, there are some control freaks but these people would have issues regardless of their religion.

Are you going to post a video about the SDA church? I'd be interested to know why you see it as a 'cult'.

[propagandatechniques]

There are a number of criteria that when applied together categorize certain religions as psychologically destructive cults. One of the most obvious criteria I can think of is the secret meetings of the elders. Here, the "secret sins" of the members are discussed. What this does is enables any sort of individual to be approved by the body of elders that vote the individual in and the history is then kept concealed from the other members. Also, a bifurcation of the mind takes place.

[JamaicanPlum]

Seventh Day Adventist members ARE ALLOWED to have contact with ex-members. The member is not 'cast out', but has the choice to carry on attending church and getting re-baptised. If they don't want to stay, they are free to leave. i know this before I was a member, I have a great relationship with my SDA mother and keep in contact with some of my old friends in the church.

Please get your facts straight!

[propagandatechniques]

I'll believe the active member that I interviewed who informed me of what "strong" members practice. Every cult has their weak "fringe" members that do not abide by the tenets 100%. Thank you very much for your opinion however.

[fluffyfreda]

you are really confused. know your bible.

[DrJWHall]

JWs live in a different reality, where the world is 'evil' and they are the only righteous ones. Oddly enough they have no problem lying for the sake of 'the truth'. It's a religion based on fear rather than the love Jesus taught. They have 'run ahead' of Jesus and the bible says they don't have God. 2 John 1: 9 - 11

[originalcountrysongs]

I totally and completely agree. Keep on it bro!!!

[Sarai217]

he was pleasant and seemed open to reason.

[propagandatechniques]

Yes he was. Now watch parts two and three and see where he exposes himself to having fibbed in part one.

[davidhomme]

the only thing you proved here is how nice a person this guy is. he was so kind to the person asking those questions. so many times on youtube people say jw's get so angry when someone disagrees. for all you out here, here is a true example of the meekness of a jehovah witness, isn't it refreshing?

[propagandatechniques]

No, it's not refreshing. Maybe you should watch the next two parts and you'll see that not only does the elder who couldn't keep out of the conversation I was having with Charlie lie several times, Charlie then supports the lies by omission.

Also, I was NOT DISAGREEING with Charlie. I was DEPROGRAMMING him. There is a difference when the mind is undergoing cognitive dissonance. We really do not know how Charlie reacts when someone disagrees with him or when he isn't on camera.

[dubbeltid]

The average jw i meet are very good at reseoning and rarely get angry oO

Maybe they are diffrent were you live. But at sweden JW roxs

[propagandatechniques]

No, they're the same here too. They simply walk away when they can't explain something. They lie first by telling you they're going to research it. But they never do and they don't return. But yes, they do keep their cool for the most part. They better. They could get disfellowshipped and then they can't speak to their family or friends.

[dubbeltid]

Allways have a name that tells people about who you are.

Well the elders answerd my questions about 1925 1975 and so. Unless they think you are asking only to annoy them or use it against them they would do research.

Anyways what question did you have maybe i can answer it ?

[propagandatechniques]

I do have a question for you.

The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the direction of what is called the "faithful and discreet slave" CLASS. They claim these ones are "anointed".

Jesus said at Mt 24:5 "Many for shall come in the name of me, saying: I am the Anointed; and many they shall deceive. Not therefore go you after them." Lu 21:8 (Emphatic Diaglott)

Who should people follow? Jesus? Or these ones claiming they are "anointed"?

[dubbeltid]

The apostles follow jesus so following apostles=following jesus.

The reseon to follow the jws annointed in particulair is because the jw and the mormons are the only plausibel christians minus the mormons who added joseph smith and a new bible

( look at mathew 24 and see if what is described will fit since 1914 and jw as preaching god news)

So by following the slave class you are arguably following jesus. Or something like that.

( check mathew 24 and you see only jw plausibel relig..

[propagandatechniques]

Ok, good answer. I can accept that. Next question:

Can a person get out of the Watchtower Society without suffering a penalty? Can a person simply leave?

[dubbeltid]

You can become inactive. But if you smoke/cheat or do something simmulair you will be exiled.

If you go to another religion though it will be considerd as entering babylon the great AKA false religion and you will be warned. If you dont change youre mind you will be expelled.

You can become inactive ( they will visit you and try to get you back but not expell you ) But if you do something you know is against the rules you get expelled.

But tbh the real answer is no.

[propagandatechniques]

Ok, now I'm going to narrow it down for you; can you simply say "I no longer want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

[dubbeltid]

If you are not baptized you can do that without any penalty.

If you are bapdized you will eventually get exiled yes. But they will try to change your'e mind first. Not sure but i think thats how it works

[propagandatechniques]

Why is a person who is baptized exiled for wanting to no longer be in that religion? Would you buy a car from a car dealer who told you that people who at one time worked for that car company that left are now exiled and that you must not speak to them or you will not be able to buy a car from them and you will be exiled too? Wouldnt you want to know why they left the car company? Might they have learned something that caused them to leave that might be of importance to you a potential consumer?

[propagandatechniques]

I see. They won't be labeled (stereotyped) and compartmentalized as "unsuitable fish"?

Notice this quote from the July 15, 2008 "study edition" Watchtower magazine p. 21 par. 19:

"As with the unsuitable fish, many who once studied the Bible with Jehovahs people have stopped studying."

Did you comprehend that dub? If you stop studying with JWs before you're baptized, will you be an "unsuitable fish" too? Ask the elders that.

[fluffyfreda]

All of you are crazy.

JW's are the only true Christians who follow in Jesus footsteps closely

[HaelNitsuj]

arrogance. i was a jw for the first 10 yeas of my life. my grandmother forced me to read the bible... TWICE!! i was that time back. when i decided to write a letter in to quit, my whole family didnt speak to me for months, and i was 10 YEARS OLD! its cruel, i had to move in with my mother who was the only non-believer in my family, all this from the true christians? message me if you want a debate and ill quite happily have one

[nita47474747]

@HaelNitsuj

boy, you & i have something in common!

i was a wittness, along time ago, married one, he was a rapist & child molester.

we were forced to attend ALL MEETINGS, theocratic ministry school, where men get to be ministers, ministerial servants, then elders to overseers, then presiding overseers, what a scam!!

i am now a believer in christ, & read a kjv

blessings to you

nita

[propagandatechniques]

When I say "they", I'm speaking about those who haven't been baptized yet. Will THEY be labeled "unsuitable fish" for no longer desiring to be affiliated with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Do you believe Jesus feels this way about people who simply do not want to be in the Watchtower Society? Would Jesus throw you in a basket and label you "unsuitable" like a fish for telling these people you aren't interested anymore? Scary. Maybe I should go back. They might actually be right this time.

[propagandatechniques]

Since I may be away from a while, I'll ask another too:

Can you show me any other source, anywhere in the world, any theologian, any scholar, any archeologist, any non-JW affiliated source that believes 607BCE marks the "appointed time of the nations", beginning a timeline that ends in 1914 where Christ supposedly arrived invisibly and established his kingdom, appointing these "anointed" men over Christ's possessions (the JW members)? Can you please furnish another source to confirm this?

[dubbeltid]

I will propably not be able to show you how 607 is the date from some other source. But originally the date previus priest used was 606. But when more updated information came they changed this to 607 but stopped counting with year 0 at the same time. So it is propably a very likely date. Will do research ASAP and answer in pm about what shows messiahs kingdom came 1914

[propagandatechniques]

Well, dub, if you cannot show another source to show the date being authentic, could it be possible that this could be what Dr. Robert J. Lifton classifies as "mystical manipulation"?

There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as...

[propagandatechniques]

...he or she wishes.

[propagandatechniques]

"So it is propably a very likely date. Will do research ASAP and answer in pm about what shows messiahs kingdom came 1914..."

Probably? You would base your entire existence on a probability? What if it probably isn't a very likely date? Wouldn't that then completely discount the idea that these men have been appointed by someone other than themselves to rule over your life? We're talking "theocratic government" here. If they're lying, you've been duped, dub. Do you know these "anointed" men?

[originalcountrysongs]

This is the reason Brother Franz ( the guy who wrote the aid book) left the governing body. He went to Brown University, traveled all over trying to find info to justify the 607 date, but came back with overwhelming evidence that the date was way off. (586 is the correct year). When he presented this to the Governing Body, the reply was the " make it (607) work. I was a witness. Then I started reading the bible.

[candycaine24]

How do you know they told him to "make it work" were you there?

[propagandatechniques]

We all believe Franz 100%. Franz made the most sense to all of us that explains all the crap we eyewitnessed going on inside that destructive cult.

[JaedomHexen]

I need to read that book, sounds like alot of information within it that maybe I can use to free my family from the grip of the Society. I have seen almost everything online I can find but I am searching for somthing powerful that will ensure freedom for them.

[propagandatechniques]

Maybe you can chat me privately with a bit of background. I had experience with 34 elders in my hall and was a member for 15 years. I know they can flip pretty easily if the right things are said. It doesn't happen overnight. Often, the whole family is suffering the same confusing feelings. It's a matter of getting all the family together on the same page. That's the tricky part. I also know of a discussion forum you might find helpful too.

[utukkuxul]

What's really refreshing is the way they're treating Sheeplike1.

For everyone who wants to see how the JWs will treat you when you have a problem, check his channel and see his brothers and sisters turn on him.

[propagandatechniques]

I checked that out. Sheeplike1 is soon free. They're going to perish inside that cult.

[stupidvid]

Poor guy satan is using him to ask my brother the dumest question on youtube.u r not oligated to do anything.Y the talk? y dont u go and C 4 ur self?

[SAINTNIKE]

Charlie seems like such an honest man. I like him.

[propagandatechniques]

Yes. We're all saddened by Charlie. He's in a den of vipers and doesn't even know it yet. When he realizes it, it'll be very hard for him to exit the way some of us were able to. And when he does, they'll call him an "apostate", "evil", "satanic" and all other thought terminating cliches they label former members with.

[makemesmile1000]

I think the JW's need to have added in their baptismal questions- "Do you recognize that under any circumstance, once you are baptized as a J.W. that you will never be able to honorably leave the Organization? "

[propagandatechniques]

I don't know if that question does it justice.

"once you are baptized as a J.W., you are trapped inside." seems more shocking.

One guy who visits me here at work that was raised in it said he was thinking about baptism at some point in the future. I explained to him that if he does get baptized, he'll be stuck inside. There's no way out without losing all your friends you make inside. So, either stay trapped in it, or don't make friends. He told me he's not going to get baptized, lol!

[dadof2lilqueens]

Great answer makemesmile. I will be using this with other witnesses out in field service. I love watching their reaction with questions like this ..

[WatchtowerAddict]

Its like he is a robot

[propagandatechniques]

Yah! Watch the next two parts...

[im20agn]

When I was an elder and PO in a congregation I was directed by a Spanish congregation using our KH to disconnect the speakers in the bathrooms so none of our publishers could hear the spanish pioneer school going on in the main hall.

I refused and told them that our people would not be able to understand spanish anyway. That's how secretive they are

[propagandatechniques]

I had a similar experience when one of the auxiliary pioneer sisters asked me for my pioneer school notes. I was told by an elder not to show her the notes because it would serve to entice her to pioneer as well. I thought, "How devious is that?!"

[RationalSkeptic]

Minor correction to the descritption box: at 4:12 Charlie says he is a Ministerial Servant, not elder.

(Sorry for being pedantic, but you know that any JoeHoes watching will dismiss it entirely due to any minor inaccuracy).

That aside, I'm loving this. What did you say to convince them to appear on camera?

[propagandatechniques]

Where did I say Charlie was an elder?

[RationalSkeptic]

Sorry, my bad. I thought the "he" in this sentence was referring to Charlie. I realize now it refers to Brother X

"He also blatantly lies about having publications other members do not have that the elders are given that Charlie previously admitted he was unaware of, while claiming to be an "elder" (handler) for over twenty years and would not"

[propagandatechniques]

When Charlie told me the Mormons were correct for shunning former members who wanted to be JWs, I asked him if he'd mind if I'd document it on video. He didn't object. Like any good witness, he was prepared to spill his guts.

[propagandatechniques]

RS, if you go back and look at my description, I was referring to Brother X as the elder who was lying and denying everything. Read it again and look for my commas etc. =)

[makemesmile1000]

I've enjoyed many of your posts, but as JWs are concerned they Do Not have Secret bks. I have had the Pay Att. for elders and Illuminators bk for pioneers and others you are referring to. But they are NOT secret, just reference manuals to help with their positions, just like Sound, Stage, Building Depts etc.. have information that is not handed out to the general public. They are guides and aids but by no means Secret, all info is found in general publications. Just fingertip references.

[propagandatechniques]

Really? So I can find orders to the elders to withhold an appellate committee decision in favor of the accused from said accused and to not allow said accused to be present during an appellate hearing in the Watchtower magazine somewhere? I thought an accused person has a right to confront his accuser(s)? Do you understand how a "granfalloon" is created? Do you know what an "imagined community" is? I suggest you watch my video "secret knowledge" and learn these things please. Thank you.

[makemesmile1000]

I have to concede, I should not have said "all Info is found in general publications", but most of what is in there is available and referred to. There would be some specifics like how to handle a committee meeting that might not, just like how to set up a stage would not. If you ask an elder he should show you and let you briefly look at the Pay Att. he wont let you read it page for page. But he will not act like it is a secret bk. Anyone who as been in a committee meeting has seen it.

[propagandatechniques]

"If you ask an elder he should show you and let you briefly look at the Pay Att. he wont let you read it page for page. But he will not act like it is a secret bk"

This is not the standard I experienced in a hall with 34 elders. I had one elder rip the book out of my hand when I happened to pick it up off his shelf and began thumbing through it while he was in the bathroom. He firmly stated, "That book is not for you to look at. You have not been appointed yet!" Now, why did he react that way?

[makemesmile1000]

It might be an area thing, the PO can often set the mood for the other elders if he is assertive. When I was a teenager the Pay Att. information was not yet bound, it was in sections more like a series of brochures. My uncle who was PO then, had his out and I asked to read through it and he handed it to me and I read several pages till I was bored. I guess that set my attitude of it not being secret information way back then. I have seen elders, especially younger ones be protective of it.

[propagandatechniques]

I also must mention to you that the Organized to do God's Will" book is also to remain confidential. When I was given that book, I was told not to let any non-members see it because it contained information how to recruit non-members and that we wouldn't want them to learn our techniques. It served to isolate my mind from my very own mother who was a non-member. That's how secret publications work. I don't make this stuff up. I have a very good reason I'm explaining all of this to everyone.

[makemesmile1000]

Maybe I have been away too long. I guess I never felt the same about the O.M. book either. Maybe my congregation was lax. Like I said if a PO is strong minded, he can have a large influence, maybe ours was like my uncle and did not put too much importance on it. Like some congregations wore hats and others felt it was inappropriate.

[propagandatechniques]

I suppose you'd have to see the same arrangement in other brands of cult religions where they have the same basic structure. It's like the handlers all go to the same school of mind control the closer you get to the top of the pyramid.

They wore hats? My goodness, you were in a long time ago, lol! =)

[poutybean]

Is there anywhere I can get a copy of Organised to do God's Will?

[propagandatechniques]

Maybe you can get the "OD" book on Ebay. I'd like to get a copy of it myself. I threw mine out when I first realized we were being tricked with all the publications, as most ex-witnesses first do. If I had known I'd be on here making videos, I would've kept everything. That's another book that doesn't appear on the WT Library CD Rom. But Charlie and Brother X say there are no secrets. Right.

[propagandatechniques]

Also, I must point out that there is a clear warning to all elders that possess this book not to copy any of it or to keep it if they are removed as an elder. How come I wasn't told that with my Illuminators book when I stopped pioneering or my Stage book? Even the OD book I didn't have to give back when I disassociated.

[makemesmile1000]

I just finished watching part 3 of this video series and I will have to say that I was shocked at the response of the elder. He did act very secretive about the Pay Att. bk. Maybe since I have always known about these publications I have never realized others have not. Any time someone had asked me to see the book I would let them look through, just not read my personal notes I wrote in the back. Or else things have really changed in the decade or so I have been gone. I am surprised.

[makemesmile1000]

I am wondering if the reason he acted shocked and secretive about the Pay Att. bk, was not so much that it was a secret, but rather, that he thought he was interviewing with just an average person on the street, then when he realized he was talking to someone knowledgeable, he became unsettled. Perhaps wondering who he was really talking with and then closed down in fear of saying too much.

[propagandatechniques]

He actually shook his head and said "no" when asked if there are any publications that other members are not privy to. He then added he's been an elder for 20 years, as if that makes him somehow authoritative in his testimony. That's when I nailed him with the PATYATATF book. That's when he became shocked. He didn't say, "Oh yes, I forgot about that book. You're right. That one is kept confidential." Instead, he tried to cover over his transgression and Charlie justified the whole thing.

[makemesmile1000]

Thanks for pointing that out, I usually just listen to videos while I am working on other things. I took the time and watched it carefully. You did ask if the elders had a "handbook" that only they are privy to and the elder directly lied. Unbelievable. And you can apply that word both ways.

[propagandatechniques]

I represented the average person on the street. The average person would've been sold a bill of goods by this guy calling himself a "brother". He needed to be exposed. That's why I did it. The average person needs someone like me to protect them from this blood sucking, money grubbing, power hungry, obviously deceptive cult. Making excuses for them won't make them look any better at this point.

[makemesmile1000]

Yeah, it's kind of hard to try and give them the benefit of the doubt, when they clearly lie on video and make me look like I have no idea what I am talking about.

[propagandatechniques]

Did you notice the elder admitted that there is no announcement given to the rank and file members when a pedophile is in their midst? Maybe if you're an elder that might not concern you. But what if you're a single sister with small children that likes to go out door to door a lot? Do you think she might like to know there's a pedophile going to the door with her child as everyone takes turns going to doors together?

[makemesmile1000]

I am not sure if this statement was directed at me. But the standard of 2 or more witnesses is one of the main reasons I am no longer a JW. I cannot wrap myself around such an idiotic ruling. I know it has its Biblical foundation and has its proper place, but I feel it is ridiculous to apply it in the instance of child abuse.

[propagandatechniques]

I agree. The thing that really got me thinking about this, aside from the fact I made a friend here on youtube who was a child raised in a hall with a pedophile is that even if the elders know the person is a "known" pedophile and a child complains, they'll still enforce the "two witness" rule and will not warn the other parents. That's insane. It's run more like a concentration camp than it is an organization of a loving God. Is it imperfect? Or is there an intentional intelligence behind it?

[propagandatechniques]

For other readers - an "imagined community" or "granfalloon" is created when something special is given to certain members and not others. With the Sturm Abteilung (SA) of the Nazis it was brown shirts that made them stand out as different. Yet, those men with brown shirts would cut the throats of anyone who dared threaten their leader. The "Flock" book unifies the elders the same way, creating a new tier in the pyramid of secret knowledge.

[makemesmile1000]

We used to have a private joke in our circuit- we would say the elders who referred to the manual as the Pay Att. bk were sincere in the interests of the congregation by first applying the counsel to themselves by- paying attention, elders that referred to it as the "Flock" bk felt that they were above the congregation and first applied the counsel to the flock or congregation before they applied it to themselves. It was only a joke, but it made me laugh when I saw the term "Flock".

[propagandatechniques]

The book should be called "who can climb the ladder the fastest" because that's what being in the cult taught me - how to "reach out" for so-called oversight. Then, when you reach out for oversight, they turn around and say, "he wants authority". When you try to be humble and just blend in, they say, "He's not 'reaching out'", and really screw with your head. Then when you finally figure out how to please these idiots, they give you a special book that you're supposed to feel privileged having.

[propagandatechniques]

You said, "It was a fine line between what some would term the "reachers" and the "grabbers". Is he "reaching out?"- No he is "grabbing"! Off with his head."

And who exactly makes this judgment? One of the "little children" following Christ? Or authoritarian ladder climbers worried their very own position of authority might be in jeopardy?

(Matthew 18:3) . . .Truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU turn around and become as young children, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

[GreatGizaGODof1914]

Nice one! especially the last part!

[propagandatechniques]

There's a third part. It's uploading now. I think part three is the most revealing.

[GreatGizaGODof1914]

All these guys are doing is parroting what they have heard they can't even think for themselves. I will check out the last one...thx Bro!

[Pookaliscious]

"Theocratic Warfare" indeed. What happened to "thou shalt not bear false witness"? Good deprogramming techniques in this vid! I really appreciate these so much.

[propagandatechniques]

Okay ,there are three parts in all... I must edit it to say that...