Christopher Hitchens on Jefferson & Bush (2 of 8)

[svenboden1]

something wrong with the audio ...shame....still always refreshing listening to hitchins...

[ITown35]

And finally - Jefferson believed him self to be a "true Christian". Believing not in the divinity of Christ, but in the teachings and principles of Jesus as a man. In fact, I would argue him to be a Unitarian. Which he again, clearly states in his letter to Dr. B. Waterhouse - June 26, 1822 on "A Unitarian Creed". These are just a few examples, but after reading numerous volumes of his writings, I have yet to come across any example of him being an Atheist or a Deist ( by todays definition).

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35

You are quite right that there is no evidence of Jefferson being an atheist, he was however, clearly a deist.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 Did you read all of my posts? What's your definition of a Deist? I guarantee it's different from Jefferson's definition.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35

A Deist, as we characterize it today, describes the belief in a supreme architect of the natural world. However, the deists denied the validity of the Bible or anything miraculous or supernatural, which is why he cannot be considered Christian. They believed in a god of nature, that could only be understood via reason and natural philosophy/science. Jefferson referred to himself as a Christian in the sense that he believed his deism was what true Christianity should entail.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 In a letter to Dr. B. Rush, April 21, 1803, - The Morals of Jesus - Jefferson defined Deism (referring to the Jews) as "Their system was Deism; that is, the belief of only one God." Are Jewish people Deists? Your definition is the current definition, but it's not how Jefferson defined Deism and that is my point. He was, in fact, a Unitarian, which is indeed a form of Christianity. If you have actual evidence to the contrary (and not opinion) I'm more than open to reviewing it.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 You still haven't answered my question. What characterizes a "Christian?" If you cannot provide an answer you cannot advocate that Jefferson was in fact a Christian. Secondly, why can Jefferson not be considered BOTH a deist and a unitarian? I see no contradiction.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 ...Furthermore, according to the letter from Jefferson, he characterizes deism as the belief in one god. Jefferson did believe in only one god, therefore he is clearly both a deist in the older and newer sense of the term.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 "He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus" - Jefferson's definition of a Christian. I'm not advocating that he was an evangelical Christian, which I've stated throughout my dozens of posts. He did, however, believe in the doctrines of Jesus and considered himself to be a "Real Christian". He was a Unitarian, which is a form of Christianity. This is indisputable. You can't make the argument that Jefferson didn't believe in the doctrines of Jesus.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 "He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus." One then needs to specify what is meant by "believes" in this definition, and which doctrines? Jefferson only believed in SOME of the doctrines of Jesus, excluding his divine position and SOLE means of personal salvation. Many of Jesus' doctrines were omitted by Jefferson when they were miraculous or supernatural. Therefore, Jefferson did NOT believe in some of the doctrines of Jesus, and denied his divinity.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 Jefferson believed in the doctrines that he felt came originally from the mouth of Jesus, which he clearly defines in his letter to Dr. B. Waterhouse - June 26, 1822 on "A Unitarian Creed". Jefferson believed that Jesus never proclaimed to be the actual son of God but was later added in an attempt to deify him.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 So I don't see where we disagree. We both agree that Jefferson did not believe some of the doctrines of Jesus, curiously, any and all that made Jesus a DIVINE figure. In the end, you and I are merely in a verbal dispute over what characterizes a Christian. There is no stable definition of one. Jefferson came up with his own, but that does not make it an authoritative account.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 Haha, exactly. It's seems I keep getting into these debates that end up in general agreement. That's why I said please read all of my posts. I never claimed these to be my arguments, but they are Jefferson's arguments. he may not be an authoritative person on the subject but he does raise good questions about early Christianity when you read his writings thoroughly.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 So we agree that Jefferson was a deist. That is the only point I tried to make to begin with.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 "So we agree that Jefferson was a deist. " - Depends on your definition :)

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 If we define a deist as one who solely believes god to be an architect of the natural world, then Jefferson was most CERTAINLY a deist. If we define a deist as anybody who believes in a single god, then Jefferson was ALSO most certainly a deist. Whether or not he was a Christian on top of that becomes a matter of dispute. He falls short of the biblical mandates for being a follower of Christ, and most Christians would not find his beliefs sufficient to be considered Christian.

[ITown35]

@MrAtheism33 I agree with your last post, my only argument is that Deism has a different definition today than it did in Jefferson's time. Although there are some modern definitions of Deism - as the belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it. I'm not sure that Jefferson would agree with that.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 Yeah, that is where Jefferson's beliefs become a little hazy. At times, he seems to agree that the creator does not interract with the world, but then speculates that the creator may. He did believe that the creator was benevolent and had a certain "care" for human beings. My ultimate opinion would be that he hadn't really determined what the relationship between the creator and world is, but was speculative.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 If you take away the divine nature of Christ, as Jefferson did, Christianity ceases to be a religion, becoming a philosophy, like Confucianism. Also, you haven't explained why Jefferson cannot be considered a deist as well as a unitarian. And whether 18th century unitarianism is a form of Christianity was and is very disputable. For instance, if I deny there is a god, or am a Hindu, yet act on the moral teachings of Jesus, am I a Christian? According to Jefferson, I am.

[MrAtheism33]

@ITown35 I think the problem you will run into here is that what constitutes being a "Christian" becomes something ambiguous. What does it mean to be a "Christian"? If merely agreeing that Jesus' moral teachings are in fact moral is sufficient to being called a Christian, then the Christian religion becomes ultimately ambiguous and inconsequential "as a religion".

[ITown35]

To continue... he ended his letter to John Adams from Apr. 1823, "...when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance. May we meet there again, in Congress, with our ancient Colleagues..." In a letter to Dr. B. Rush, April 21, 1803, - The Morals of Jesus - Jefferson defined Deism (referring to the Jews) as "Their system was Deism; that is, the belief of only one God." Which is not at all what Deism means today.

[ITown35]

I would argue against Jefferson being an Atheist or a Deist (in today's sense). After reading many of his private letters and other writings, I've found no specific work that specifically states his acceptance of Atheism or his rejection of a "god". In fact, in his letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 on "Calvin and Cosmology", in the first part of the letter he states - in reference to Calvin - "He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism."

[glitch7788]

Got bored of this the first few mins.

But I'm sure it was Leonardo Da Vinci that thought "Why was sea shells so High on the mountains".

[twikiriwhi]

Its a crock for Hitchens to pretensiously spout that the siprit of enlightenment scientific descovery was that of atheist liberty from tyranical superstion!

Thats a pathetic exageration.

Natural science did eliminate a lot of silly superstition and bad theology but thats all. True science has always been at one with Christian cosmology and so supports Theism. It explains how God has organised the phisical universe.

Jefferson did believe in God...and in the ethics of Jesus.

[yerk3]

@twikiriwhi "True science" is firmly at odds with numerous claims made in the Bible. Natural science does not support theism, it obliquely contradicts it.

[twikiriwhi]

Yerk3 You express a commonly myth but that is all. You show you follow the herd.The reality is there is no contradiction between Science and the existence of God and no conflict between Science and faith in fact if you really knew anything you would know that true science was founded upon the presuppositions of Christian faith (cosmology) you need to read The Roots of Science' by Harold Turner (A Deep Insight Trust publication) I dare you to start investigating my claim instead of being a sheep

[yerk3]

@twikiriwhi "A commonly myth?" What does that even mean? If the "God" you're talking about is the one in the Old Testament, then yes, the science contradicts practically everything he is recorded as having done. In Genesis, it says the world was created in 7 days, even though science tells us that it was actually more like billions of years. The Bible tells us that we all descended from Adam and Eve, but the science supports evolution.

[gnulen]

@yerk3 where the fuck does christians get the idear that they can combine there cultural delusions with science ? ..I usually never argue with fools.. they'll drag you down to their level, and then, - beat you with experience .. but in this case it seems nesesary, since there are many of them and they are getting more stupid and more insisting every day ..

[yerk3]

@twikiriwhi Science is founded ultimately on the works and ideals of the Greek philosophers, who did all of their work centuries before Christianity was ever invented. I don't feel the need to pay for a book by some crackpot, subject myself to the burning stupidity of his various pseudo-scientific claims and far-fetched interpretations of ancient gibberish.

[MegaBeamish]

@twikiriwhi I have to correct you on that last point. Jefferson was an athiest and said. 'Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.' He also wrote his own bible called 'The Faith and Moral Teachings Of Jesus Of Nazareth.'

[pandurate]

@MegaBeamish I know Jefferson was not a Christian, but I think he was a deist, not an atheist. A deist simply believes in "a god", but not a personal god of any kind. I'm not sure though, and I don't think anyone is.

[ITown35]

@MegaBeamish Please provide proof that he was an Atheist. A mere quote, without providing a source, means nothing. Furthermore, the quote doesn't lend credence that he was an Atheist, but simply that he rejected the "established" religion of Christianity, not a "god". The Jefferson Bible was his way of finding the true teachings of Jesus as a man and doesn't not advocate atheism in any sense.

[MegaBeamish]

@ITown35 The quote I mentioned is from Bill Maher's Religulous and I don't know where he got it. I'll conceed that the source of the quote could be considered biased. I also found it strange that he would take such a keen interest in religion if he was in fact an athiest so I will therefore retract my comment about him being one. It's nice to see someone on youtube actually present a well thought and 'informed' argument instead of resorting to childish name calling. Well done!

[ChessJew]

@ITown35 I'm not sure how exactly you can call someone a "Christian" if he denies both that Jesus was the son of God and that he had any divine powers.

[ITown35]

@ChessJew -I'm assuming by "someone" you mean Th. Jefferson? If so, Jefferson called himself a "Christian" in his letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816 when he said "A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus". Did Jesus claim himself to be "the Son of God and that he had any divine powers"? Or was the mysticism of Jesus created after his death to Deify him?

[ChessJew]

@ITown35 If you define a Christian as, "someone who thinks some of Jesus' moral teachings were good", then by your extremely elastic definition I'm a Christian. Jefferson, however, specifically denied that Christ had any divine powers or made any divine claims (the entire point of the Jefferson bible). He also specifically despised the idea of vicarious redemption. So if you think you can deny all of those and still be a Christian, I guess that's what you think.

[ITown35]

@ChessJew It's not what I think, it's what Jefferson thought. He called himself a Christian. Can you refute that with facts? No. He was a Unitarian, which he discussed many different times. Last I looked, Unitarians were "Christians". And when did I ever say this: "someone who thinks some of Jesus' moral teachings were good" - learn how to use quotes.

[ChessJew]

@ITown35 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. - Jefferson to Adams, 1823

[ChessJew]

@ITown35 Jefferson was very clear that he admired Christ's teachings, but that he disbelieved all of the metaphysical claims behind both Christ and the Christian religion. And the quote you provide is simply that - him admiring Jesus' teachings. He certainly didn't think he was the son of God.

[ITown35]

@ChessJew You need to read all of my posts from below. We basically agree. But, you have yet to discover that Jefferson was a Unitarian, which is in fact a form of Christianity. I would refer you to his letter to Dr. B. Waterhouse - June 26, 1822 on "A Unitarian Creed". This is one example out of many of Jefferson advocating Unitarianism.

[angryafro]

Hahaha, "betwixt." What a fucking douchebag you are.

[procommenter]

Mommy?

[supravista]

yes, munchkin?

[JACKtheRIPP3R189]

Lol yeah i guess fluency in Greek and Latin means one must have been one of the many sheep in the religious flock. Considering that there isn't any reliable reference anywhere lending credence to the idea that Jefferson was one of the aforementioned sheep, it seems the charge of "non-reader" can be aimed solely at your revisionist feet.

[infokemp]

Thomas Jefferson must have been an amazing individual to meet or is it just that modernity has made us poor for the convienence of the time saving devices it given us.

We perhaps would live more and do more if we spent less time on the computer and the TV. Jefferson had to have made up his own activity to make himself a polymath rather than looking for entertainments that come and go rather than achievements that last.

[procommenter]

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

-- Motto on Thos. Jefferson's seal [Circa 1776] -- p. 1002, "Familiar Quotations" by John Bartlett (1955)

[nixonfanatic]

I know this is a late response, as your comment reads as '1 month ago' but I have to add...

As per below: many people use the word 'god' to represent a deistic, not theistic, interpretation of the world. Because one uses the word 'god', another is NOT permitted to say 'he meant my god' or whatnot. It's the same as folks saying Einstein believed in Yahweh, which he clearly did not.

'God bless' can infer a deistic reference as well as a theistic one, would you not agree?

nix

[procommenter]

For revisionists worldwide: the American revolution was the triumph of 18th-century-God-hating {as opposed to -fearing} men over the Church of England. For Jefferson, Caesar Rodney, John Jay {in the name of Jesus}: it was for free-trade.

[tristramshandy3]

how funny- i JUST read that today. Here is another interesting Jefferson quote: "I think our government will remain virtuous for many centuries; as long as they are chiefly agricultural" Letter to Madison 12-20-1787.

urbanization is a killer!

[procommenter]

No one wants to be judged by their private musings, & pillow-talk, as it's disingenuous to do so.

[tristramshandy3]

thanks for that irrelevant response.

[procommenter]

You see things as a non-reader.

[tristramshandy3]

actually, i am a voracious reader and writer. haven't owned a television for over 15 years.

his letters are historical documents that discuss, for the most part, our government and our society. He is not writing a love letter to his mistress, he is discussing political matters. His letters are important historical documents and help shed more light on the political philosophy of our most brilliant founder.

Have a great day.

[tristramshandy3]

really? letters discussing the health and future of our republic are private musings?

I don't even comprehend how you can think that. Have you READ any of jefferson's letters?

[tristramshandy3]

the letters I'm reading deal strictly with issues of politics or sociology. The book is called "crusade against ignorance- thomas jefferson on education" (edited by gordon c lee).

You are wrong about privacy in the 18th century- collections of letters were commonly published- and jefferson was certainly aware that the scores of thousands of letters he wrote would be historical documents.

The letters I have read deal with NOTHING of his personal life.

Your point is mute.

move along :)

[procommenter]

Thousands of T.J.'s letters were destroyed by his immediate heirs. Revisionists trudge forever forth to make Thomas Jefferson into the filthy heathen that he was not.

[tristramshandy3]

I agree there is plenty of revisionist garbage going around. However, I would think your quote of his would be more prone to rhetorical abuse.

Besides the agrarian bit, my main focus concerning jefferson is his FIERCE devotion to intellectualism. The man believed in the power of knowledge.

I am not trying to prove he was a liberal or conservative to justify my predetermined ideological positions- I think it's clear to any objective observer he showed tendencies from both sides.

[procommenter]

Thos. Jefferson publicly professed his fondness for reading the Holy Scriptures in Greek & Latin. He considered himself an expert on ancient Greek culture & Latin verbiage. He would not recognize himself filtered through the likes of one-worlder Christopher (bearer of Christ) Hitchens.

[greatsea]

In video clip 1 Hitchen's says historians haven't any business using the phrase "he must have thought", but here, in spite of many open references to God in Jefferson's writings, Hitchen's says "he must have been an atheist". Of course Hitchen's has a vested interest in his beloved hero being "possibly" an atheist but I think that is too-lavish speculation. "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."--TJ. TJs references to God are legion.

[meiitbe]

Jefferson was, at best, a deist. If he was an atheist, he would not have wasted precious time writing his own version of the Bible.

I do, however, have to empathize with Hitchens on this point. It is understandable to wish your personal traits may have been shared by your heros, but it is often totally unsupportable. As much as I would like to believe Captain Kirk was gay, it isn't entirely plausible - is it?

[digitalwaylander]

It's funny that you're suggesting Hitchens might be guilty of wishful projection: one of the fundamental bases of his attack on religion!

[nixonfanatic]

I have to go with meiitbe on this one. Hitchens is, in fact, speaking to evidence in this case, as posited by Jefferson's writing. Take your quote there and compare it to Jefferson's other writings, and you'll see that he uses 'god' in more of an Einsteinian way than a theistic one.

It's not so much - in this case - a matter of the words used in the statement; it's a matter of the verifiability. 'He must have thought' as he put it, is ascribing motive that cannot be verified.

nix

[nixonfanatic]

Also, for the record, I understand what you're saying about his references being legion. I would suggest, however, that the use of the word 'god' does not in any way suggest theism. As has been discussed in many forums: I, as an atheist, use the phrase 'god damn it' on a regular basis. Does this suggest my theism? It does not. The intent of Jefferson's writings becomes very clear as one reads his works.

Deist.

Sorry to be terse, but Jefferson never avowed as a Christian, or theist.

nix

[greatsea]

As an avid reader of Jefferson's works and of his biographers I would respectfully disagree with you. Jefferson believed there was a deity of some sort.

[tristramshandy3]

it's different. you use god damn it reflexively, without thinking- probably, usually. jefferson mentions god many, many, many times in his writings. Now, whether or not it's the same interpretation of god aschristianity professes to exist, which it probably isn't, he wasreligious in some sense of the word.

I have no axe to grind or ideology to fight for here. I'm a happy go lucky agnostic- i'd like to believe most of the founders were secular, but the more I read, the less I believe that.shazba!

[hackenbollox]

Much of his eloquence stems from his knowledge of his topics.

having said that, Hitch is one of my heros, and this is not a title I give away lightly. Massive intellect and the application thereof is the foundation of all reason.

[Iambecome]

I could listen to him all day, he's a natural speaker.

[gtssage]

I agree. His command of the english language and its nuances is extraordinary. He makes great comments and insights.