Exuse me for not adding, i have nothing against images and pictures, for things that took place need to be remembered at times, but when my priest of the Macedonian Orthodox Church tells me to bow down for the situation that is drawn about on the pic, i feel it is idolising a fact far away from the true Living God YHWH. i mean no disrespect to you for you are doing your part as Gods will, this is one thing that has been on my mind since i've been saved.
Yes our God told how to build the temple where His presence was in the time, but never told anyone to bow down in front 2 or 3 times and show on themselves symbols of faith that comes from the heart for God see'd inside and not out. As an Orthodox Christain that i was raised, please tell me how its ok to bow in front of a man made object with no power?
I think I forgot to explain what I mean by that...
Why they asked God to show anything, was so that He would reveal to them who, if picked to be an Apostle, would make the best choices in his life as an Apostle, and also because maybe they did not wish to make the choice, since all 70 were all very good people (again, by their choices and ways of life)...
It is absurd and wrong to think of this "asking the Lord to show" as God picking and men sitting around and waiting for God to pick...
And with regard to the wonderful example that you gave: do you believe there was one soul in those "lots" who didn't wish with all his heart to be chosen ?
Again, it's harder to see what's not there: it's harder to see that each and every one of those people in the "lots" shared their lives with the Apostles, prayed with them, spent Sundays together, ate the same food and so on...
So then, first they all chose to worship the Lord, and only then, the most gifted was then given the opprtunity
"The modern day teachers are whoever God appoints" - you're forgetting what I said earlier, that 'the understanding is ours'... therefore it is not up to God to make us understand, but it is up to us to understand.
Just how it wasn't up to God to make Adam stay in Heaven, but up to what Adam did.
I remember I saw on someone's blog "wisdom comes from within", and this is sort'of similar with your idea that "the Holy Spirit is our Teacher".
Because wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself... That is why we treasure the hard works of faith of our Holy Fathers, why we remember them through icons, and so much more...
Because this is the context that was left to us by our Lord, and they kept it so that we would have it.
"But it is incumbent upon us to check what is being taught" - for anything to be taught there must exist a lesson, a method of teaching, an ability to learn and hard work dedicated to learning.... In everything...
The words of men are not meaningless, because they speak of those 4 things without which learning is not possible. Without them, we cannot learn anything. That is why without the words of good men, the Bible would be nothing more than a rulebook... because there would be no learning
rockoMe > "The words of ***men*** are not meaningless... Without them, we cannot learn anything."
Oh, but we can.
1 Cor 2:4-5 - "And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of ***men***, but on the power of ***God***."
1 Cor 2:13 - "... not in words taught by ***human wisdom***, but in those taught by the ***Spirit***... ".
@MikeyCanuck123 ok, well I ask you what does "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" mean ? Or what do "persuasive words of wisdom" mean ? And so on...
Because if you can answer, you use words, which show your understanding, i.e. how much you have learned... And if you can't explain, then they are just rules you follow, because you can't understand them, right ?
And your understanding may be less deep than others' understanding...
This is how unless you have other words to explain the meanings of what you read, i.e. what you learn, then it means you don't understand it, right ? And when you follow something you don't understand, you are simply following rules...
"not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit" I completely agree! But what is the spirit without words? What is the Spirit, without the Word of God, who is the one who sends us the comforter?
Again, wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself...
And without the words of good men (who understand better, because of their good heart and love) our understanding can never improve...
Of course there is some basic learning when we read anything, but when you get a second opinion on anything, chances are you get a better understanding of the topic... Hence, the context in which you are 'taught'...
And when I talk of a good heart, try to remember honesty!
Because if you sit here reading for the sole purpose to contradict, you are not honest and not good at heart. And if I were doing that, the same would apply.
The Church with the icons, the worship, the understanding in words of good men first, and so on, reflects the idea that wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself...
Heh... you must always speak the truth, otherwise...
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth... " John 8:44
I also meant that even though the words of men are meaningless without the references, in the same way the physical references are meaningless without understanding... And understanding comes from the words of men...
Here I also thought of what you said regarding the Holy Spirit teaching us: whenever we are tempted to lie, steal, kill, break the 10 commandments and so on, the Holy Spirit tells us, through our conscience and more, what the good thing to do is...
But the understanding of logic and science and such, as well as the Bible and other theological texts, can be guided by the Holy Spirit, but the understanding is ours...
And by "the understanding is ours" I simply mean that understanding depends on how willing we are to listen, to give up our own egoes and pride and make such sacrifices in order to understand better (and this goes for anything, from science to the Bible)
And some people are willing to sacrifice more, e.g. partying, socializing, having a family, etc., so that they can listen and apply what they learned better and have a better understanding.
rockoMe > "And some people are willing to sacrifice more, e.g. partying, socializing, having a family, etc., so that they can listen and apply what they learned better and have a better understanding."
And furthermore, many times it's harder to see what's not there: why did Jesus Christ only have 12 apostles and not the whole world? In other words, why did Christ Himself make a separation between some people who can have a better understanding, than others?
And the truth is, one of the reasons was that these people could best speak of Him to those who have a weaker understanding, and so on...
As I was reading the posts and reflecting on what I have learned on this youtube channel. I kept thinking of 1 Cor 4:15-17. Who are the "ten thousand instructers in Christ" who are the " yet have ye not many fathers" Who are the modern day "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus", "as I teach every where in every church. " This also seems relevant to the over discussion.
Larryinct > "Who are the modern day... Timotheus (teachers)"... This also seems relevant to the over discussion."
Acts 13:1 - "... in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul."
1 Cor 12:28 - "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers... ".
Hi MC123 The Epistles contain a lot of information about the first Apostles combatting heresies, and them teaching people+sending them out and to the Churches to keep them in the True Gospel. As far as I can tell this is the only process that God set up to appoint Apostles. Paul was called to be a Apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, but he conferred with Peter and James and worked in harmony as an equal with the other Apostles. I agree God appoints, but I see a definitive process.
Larryinct > "I agree God appoints, but I see a definitive process."
Good point, the process.
Here's an interesting process;
Acts 1:24-26 - "And they prayed, and said, "You, Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." And they drew ***lots*** for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Well, of course, but do we dare compare ourselves with the Apostles? The wonders that they did were not fully understood by those who lived with them, and therefore when THEY asked the Lord to "show" it is not the same as when we would ask the Lord to "show"...
But MikeyCanuck123, do you wish to imply that God can pick us to do anything, if we don't choose do to that thing? Because it is simply absurd... It's like saying God transforms us all into robots whenever He chooses to, right?
Yes that did happen. If I remember correctly. The original Apostles looked to the 70 (Luke 10:1)to find a replacement for the Apostleship Judas turned aside. They narrowed it down, but could not decide; so they drew lots. To be there and learn from the Word made Flesh, in all the hours, days and years of this age to be there during those 3 years and as in Luke 10:23,24. Think, all the things they must of heard+seen in those 3 years. As John put it; in the last words of his Gospel21:25
Larryinct, interesting cross reference to Luke 10:1, since when the replacement was being chosen, Peter said it had to be someone who had, "... accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John, until the day that He was taken up from us... " (Acts 1:21,22).
John 21:25, yes, quite a descriptive comment! The whole world couldn't contain the books!
As you say, those 3 years of Christ's ministry... what an amazing time.
And this is what it sort'of comes down to when we speak of the Chuch. Some people simply are better than us and more gifted at understanding, and have more faith and more love than us... And their words help us understand our Lord's teachings for us...
For this, think of the Catholic inquisition, the protestant burning-at-the-stake, and all these horrible things done to people because of a wrong interpretation... The words were the same, but the understanding so limited...
"That I speak of? Heh" - well, yes, everything we say, we say in our own understanding, even if it's just repeating...
"The words of men are meaningless" - this is so not true, not because the words of men would go beyond those of God Himself, but because the words of men are those that help us understand Christ's Teachings... Without the words of men, we would have a rulebook, not a belief in Christ and a law of love.
I just remembered that even this being 'born-again' that you speak of is an action that is made because there is some faith... It is still an action, which results from human choice...
rockoMe > "It is still an action, which results from human choice... ".
Yes, & this is a beautiful thing... that God allows us to make these choices. I dare say the best gift we could have. We aren't robots, God respects our opinion.
Once we understand Who God & Jesus are, then yes, our works will prove our faith.
James 2:18 - "I will show you my faith by my works."
So then it's hard for anyone to boast when knowing that without the gift of God and without grace we would have never done the same good things, that is, we would've never made the same choices...
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" - this statement is beautiful...
Because truly, the gift of God, and our faith do guide us so much and help us make the right choices (but again, the choices are still ours to make), and because of these, more will our works be for God...
But as roddymark, "Faith without works is dead" and I believe that. Because it would simply be unfair to have it any other way...
And I can't believe that God can choose to put someone in heaven, without that person doing anything to make him worthy... Not that He couldn't do it, since He is Allmighty, but that it wouldn't be fair...
rockoMe > "And I can't believe that God can choose to put someone in heaven, without that person doing anything to make him worthy... Not that He couldn't do it, since He is Allmighty, but that it wouldn't be fair... ".
I know what you mean, but this is what the Bible says > Eph 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
That is true, and it was necessary for another Apostle to correct people like you who misconstrued it for their own ends: "Faith without works is dead....." Moreover, do you really believe that Paul had the power to override Jesus Christ who said "those whose works are good, to the resurrection of everlasting life, and those whose works are evil, to the resurrection of condemnation?" Did Christ lie, or are you misreading Paul? To whom did Christ say, "depart...I never knew you"?
Well, first of all I was thinking of my earlier statement "He can't choose us, unless we choose Him, right" and I'm sorry, I thought about it and I really don't mean that.... Because even though the people in the Old Testament didn't choose the God of Love, He still chose them and so much He loved the world that He allowed that He be crucified for our sins...
"But as far as us being chosen to begin with, that starts with God." - Well, I completely agree; and I remember some words of Saints who said "every grain of sand in this universe, for God it is counted"(I may have translated it wrong, but you understand what I mean)
That's why I think of God choosing us in terms of the gifts that we have...Some are more talented at philosophy, some at mechanics, and so on...
rockoMe > "And this means that we should not think of the statement "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" in terms of giving up our free will... ".
In other words, on a day to day basis, we choose to follow God. We use our free will to do His will.
I agree.
But as far as us being chosen to begin with, that starts with God. He has to choose us first. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (born again) occurs when we accept His invitation of salvation through Jesus Christ.
God doesn't baptize just some people that He chooses to.... If everyone in the world were baptized and born-again there would still be many called, but few chosen...
Well, what I meant was that we shouldn't think that God chooses us, but that we choose Him above our own will.
So if we are baptized, and born-again (in the right understanding), and we don't choose to have mercy, and compassion, and love then we don't really choose Him.
And then again, if we have never heard of Jesus Christ (and therefore we never got baptized) but we love, and have compassion and mercy, then we have love of Christ....
Choosing God above our own will, means simply to choose to do the right thing, even though we want to do something else... Just like we may wish not to forgive, or to take vengeance on someone for hurting us..
Regarding your second statement, well, we have the right to choose, don't we? He can't choose us, unless we choose Him, right?
So the point I'm trying to make is that if you are born-again and do not have love in your life, and you do not have compassion, and you do not have love, but only pride, it's worse than not being born-again but living a life of love...
"*If* you are *baptized* by the ***Holy Spirit*** you become a Christian... huge difference from any other kind of baptism. " -> you are trying to correct me, instead of understanding what I was saying...
...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church... Because the Church can't possibly be made of killers and murderers and those who don't love Christ, even if they are baptized... It can't be made of people who don't sing to God, who don't pray together to God, etc.
MikeyCanuck123, I'm a little bit scared cause I tell you things, and you handpick a small part of that and try to contradict .... Is there anything that you listen to ?
All I'm saying is that you need a lot more than to be born again to be a follower of Christ...
Argue with this idea... I don't know how simple to make it, because I keep trying to give you proofs and complex logics, but you just don't want to understand this very simple idea: that you need more than just born-againism.
rockoMe > "... you handpick a small part of that and try to contradict .... Is there anything that you listen to ?"
I hear one thing that needs to be corrected before we go anywhere.
rockoMe > "...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church...".
Wrong.
This is the problem right here.
There may be people who *call* themselves Christians, but they aren't Christians until God says they are, that is, until they're baptized by the Holy Spirit (born again), Eph. 1:13.
"That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church... Because the Church can't possibly be made of killers and murderers and those who don't love Christ, even if they are baptized" ... why take only the beginning ?
I could easily rephrase that as: Because the Holy Body of Christ cannot be made of people who kill and do horribly bad things, the Church is not made of those people even if they are baptized ....
rockoMe, we have to be very sure what we're talking about.
In this limited forum, you have to take it step by step.
Thus, I reiterate;
rockoMe > "...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church...".
Wrong.
This is the problem right here.
There may be people who *call* themselves Christians, but they aren't Christians until God says they are, that is, until they're baptized by the Holy Spirit (born again), Eph. 1:13.
What I am saying is that they can call themselves Christians, the whole world can call them Christians, they can be baptized 2000 times, but if their acts don't correspond to one who follows Christ and they don't have love, they are not part of the Church.
It's so simple, and I'm being so honest... I'm not trying to convert you or anything, I'm just trying to tell you that those without love are like Judas... Judas was baptized, born again, and is the symbol of the most horrible evil... And he was baptized.
There may be Redemption, for those who never heard of Christ, and were never baptized, and live a life with love... But there is only death for those who in their lives, do great sins without repenting.
If being "born again" in the context of "bornagainism" could actually chance or transform people, then Fundamentalists would not be so cruel and filled with the kind of hate that they constantly preach; and they certainly would have been in the forefront of demanding a universal healthcare system in the U.S. rather than desiring to leave tens of thousands of Amricans with no access to proper healthcare.
Yes, because citizenship is written in papers... But redemption is written in choices...
In other words, I made a direct separation between us calling ourselves 'Christian', and Jesus Christ calling us 'Christian', that is, referring to His Church.
I believe this is what born-again-ism supporters do, which is to try to have one good action in time make them worthy of Redemption.
Think of Judas, how many good actions he did supposedly for Christ, yet he is the symbol of Christian betrayal.
rockoMe > "... I made a direct separation between us calling ourselves 'Christian', and Jesus Christ calling us 'Christian', that is, referring to His Church."
That has nothing to do with what I was saying about being born again or the Church (Body of Christ).
If I call myself an Aussie, but don't have the papers, I'm not.
*I* may have said it, I may want it, but I'm not truly Aussie.
As I said before, the only way to be born again is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit... an act of God.
So if Christ Himself doesn't make the implication B->S, why would anyone else?
And this means, that if you are born again (and when I say that I mean born-again in the understanding that was given in the early days), you are not guaranteed to see... But isn't being a Christian seeing and believing in Christ?
Of course, these are ways by which I explain the meaning of the language, and the Bible should very rarely be explained in such terms.
In terms of logics, and the quote you gave me John 3:3, I believe it was, you wrongfully assume the direct is equivalent to the contrapositive (check Wikipedia if these terms don't make sense).
Let the statement B = "one is born-again", and statement S = "one sees the kingdom of God", the statement you gave me says !B -> !S, which is not in any way equivalent to the wrong B->S....
At most you may transform it in, say S->B, which means, if one does see, then he must have been born again...
Think of it this way....if all you do is begin, you're not a Christian... and if you do more than just begin, then it's not the beginning that makes you Christian...
rockoMe > "... if all you do is begin, you're not a Christian... ".
I believe this is the flaw in your logic.
If I transfer citizenship from Canada to Australia, as soon as I start (begin) the journey as an Australian, that is, I sign the citizenship papers (born again), I am indeed an Australian & enjoy all the benefits of being such.
When people say I am a "Born again Christian" it is like saying I own a "car on wheels"
It's obvious that to be a Christian you have to be born again in Christ, but that is just the beginning to being Christian. And what's the point of beginning, when you don't live a life with love of Christ (i.e. the general 'you')
And many people use 'born-again'-ism as an excuse not to live a life with love of Christ, and say that to begin the journey for Christ is enough, and you don't need the journey
MikeyCanuck123, again, try to think a bit more because you use quotes that completely support what I just said...
He says "UNLESS", which means if you're not born again, you can't see... But He doesn't say that you can see anything, even if you are born again...
This means that you have to be born-again to be a Christian, but even if you're a Christian you're not guaranteed to see anything... It takes lot more!
rockoMe > "He says "UNLESS", which means if you're not born again, you can't see... But He doesn't say that you can see anything, even if you are born again...".
Vladika, if I may ask you: could you please talk a bit, in a future video, about how the Church Fathers spread the knowledge about the Word of God to the pagans in the early days and the hardship they went through so that people would hear of the Word of God?
Because I've noticed some saying that the Church is made by ordinary people, and thus wrongfully try to consider themselves even close to the greatness of our Church Fathers and forget what the Fathers went through for our sake...
Well, MikeyCanuck123, what I was saying is that the Church is made of those people who live a life with love of Christ...
But being 'born-again' on its own doesn't make anyone part of the Church! Or as you say, the body of Christ. Because how can the body of our Lord be made of people who don't truly live a life with love of Christ?
This is because many are called but few are chosen... Just like many are 'born-again', but few truly go passed this beginning to live a life with love of Christ.
rockoMe > "But being 'born-again' on its own doesn't make anyone part of the Church!"
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is ***born again***, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
1 Peter 1:3-4 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be ***born again*** to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable... ".
Just like what I was saying earlier, that being born-again doesn't make anyone part of the Church (or a good person)... Because being born-again is just the beginning...
It is the love of Christ and living a truly Christian life that makes a person good or bad.
And most people use the excuse of 'born again'-ism to say that the beginning of a life in Christ is enough and excuse their laziness; truly this isn't the case, because as I said, the beginning is nothing without the continuation!
MikeyCanuck123, you say allsaintsmonastery is bitter, but what he makes reference to is the human temptation to take pride in their understanding, which is very malicious...
From his comments it's obvious that he doesn't attack you personally in any way, unless, obviously, you feel that you are part of what he describes as malicious...
rockoMe > "From his comments it's obvious that he doesn't attack you personally in any way... ".
allsaintsmonastery > Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations.
In fact, it was the Church, with the apostolic authority, that created the New Testament and determined which canon of the O.T. to use in creating the Bible. Remember that there were around 50 "Gospels" to be chosen from, and the Church, on her apostolic authority, chose them; nor were the members of the Council unaware of the apparent contradictions in the 4 Gospels. They tested the Gospels against the Liturgy, which is older than the written Gospels. The Church gave the N.T. its authority
We do not. We have no way of reading the hearts and souls of other people. Why would we want to judge them? As Christ has suggested, who are we to judge another man's servants? Christ, after all, is the only one who is able to judge such matters. We must presume that we do not know the inner recesses of another: their personal suffering, their mental condition, their deep struggles against those very weaknesses that make us delude that they are "bad."
What were Christ's EXACT words to Nicodemos?? When I was in India, I heard many testimonies of born again Buddhists and Hindus, which match precisely the Protestant notion of BornagainISM. Same testimonials, same glowing intensity, same personally knowing the Buddha or Krishna, or Siva. Baptism is a mystery worked by the indwelling Holy Spirit, by Divine Grace. It was given by God so that we not fall into the delusion of the sectarian's "ism"
No, nor even the concept as understood by Sectarians with their "born-againISM." Christ clearly spoke of the mystery of baptism, in which the Holy Spirit acts upon the water and the believer. He said, "born again of water and the spirit," not an emotional experience. The Holy Sp. hovered over the primordial waters of creation and brought forth life. Orthodox Christian baptism is the same; the font is the womb of the Church into which one is reborn by grace, not emotionalism.
The Church of the living Christ is indeed made up of the good, the bad and the ugly as well as the beautiful. The tares will be gathered out only on the day of the harvest; in the meantime, there is hope for all, even the bad and the ugly. There is, however, precious little hope for the self-righteous "born again-ites" with their interpretations so contrary to those of the Apostolic Church. The Church is a worshiping body. There is unity in the Orthodoxy Church absent from the cacophony of (cont
Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations.
allsaintsmonastery > "Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations."
Someone should alert allsaintsmonastery that somone has hijacked his Youtube account, as this is obviously not something a mature person would write.
I have had far too many conversations with people who have renounced Christianity not to know that being attacked with the Bible and the contradictory interpretations of the hundreds of Protestant sects, each with its own set of interpretations, is a major cause of the renunciation of Christianity. Not being able to face that is the real lack of maturity.
allsaintsmonastery > "I have had far too many conversations with people who have renounced Christianity not to know that being attacked with the Bible and the contradictory interpretations of the hundreds of Protestant sects, each with its own set of interpretations, is a major cause of the renunciation of Christianity."
Uhmmm... because people supposedly have different interpretations of the Bible I now renounce Christ?
Actually, Christ Himself ties the meaning of "born again" with Baptism, saying that we must be born again "of water and the spirit." Sectarians who invented the new meaning of "born again" as an emotional experience, one shared by Budhist, Hindus and almost all pagans, are completely out of step with the beliefs of the Apostles and apostolic Christians. Christ said "water and the spirit," not "an emotional experience." There is, of course, something very profound about Christ's words. (cont.)
If being evil-minded, cruel and malicious eleminates one from the Church, then clearly no Fundamentalists or right-wing Protestant can possibly be in the the Church of the Living God, because so much of what Fundamentalists preach is harsh and cruel, and contrary to what Christ taught by word and example.
allsaintsmonastery > "If being evil-minded, cruel and malicious eleminates one from the Church, then clearly no Fundamentalists or right-wing Protestant can possibly be in the the Church of the Living God, because so much of what Fundamentalists preach is harsh and cruel, and contrary to what Christ taught by word and example."
As I mentioned earlier, someone should alert allsaintsmonastery that somone has hijacked his Youtube account, as these are words of someone very bitter & deluded.
I don't think so, MC123. Fundamentalists tend to favour the death penalty, to want to impose their perspectives upon others using the Civil, secular power to do so, and to support the curtailment of the civil rights of others. They are far more likely to advocate for the cruelest parts of the Old Testament that to convey a consciousness of the teaching and actions of Christ. Such fradulent constructs as "scientific creationism," etc, are all products of the religious right.
As our beloved father Paul told us, ``Be emulators of me, as I am an emulator of Christ.`` Christ and the Apostles were living icons which we are to emulate, just as the icons on the walls of the Church call upon to seek the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles, Martyrs and wonderworkers of all ages; all of whom were emulators of Christ and His apostles, according to the New Testament.
That's why I was talking about the people who try harder; because the Church is made of those who wish to try as hard as possible to love God with all their hearts with respect to the teachings they've had for many many years, as best they can.
Because if it weren't for them, the Bible and everything we know about the Word of God would not exist, right?
rockoMe > "... how do people know what is the right way to understand and worship? How is the right understanding of God's Word kept away from human mistake?"
Again, the Lord reveals whatever He wants to whoever He wants.
Adam didn't have the Scriptures or anything to guide him, but he fellowshipped with God.
Naturally, the Scriptures are very helpful, esp. the NT, since it details the New Covenant that we're living under.
We also have the Holy Spirit who is called our Teacher & Helper.
Excellent video! We must also remember that the Jews did have icons apart from the Cherubim in the synagogues. For example the magnificent synagogue in Dura Europos, which had an entire wall covered with icons of the Old Testament events and saints, such as the prophets. I'm also being blessed by doing a study on the writings of St. Theodore the Abbot of Studios, who is not as well known as St. John of Damascus, but still a wonderfull theologian. God bless!
I mean, obviously prayer and community can exist without the church, but how can we worship Jesus Christ if we forget those who sacrificed themselves and their lives, and their fortunes so that we would know His name?
Because yes, I completely agree with part of what you're implying, that worshiping can and should exist within ourselves. That is why the Church recognizes unknown saints
But you're also implying that we can worship without the teachings of the Holy Church, and that is ecumenism
MikeyCanuck123, you do know that one of the direct implications of ecumenism is forgetting Jesus Christ, His name, His sacrifices and the sacrifices of those who followed Him, right ?
I mean, how can you worship Jesus Christ as God, when He said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when you imply that there are many other ways, truths and lives ?
rockoMe > "I mean, how can you worship Jesus Christ as God, when He said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when you imply that there are many other ways, truths and lives ?"
HeroesofApostasy > "What have I missed? You think that Houses of Worship are irrelevant and are no longer necessary, yet you use one, whether occasionally or not."
Yes, I use them occasionally, when invited. If they weren't there I wouldn't use them at all! And I wouldn't ask that they be built.
I don't necessarily like what cars do to the environment, but I still use one until I can find a better way.
I don't like abortion, but I'm not going to start my own country.
I agree with your comment about the straightforward approach to this selection by Vladyka Lazar. As we Orthodox Christians using the new calendar begin the Fast of the Nativity tomorrow (15 November), and on the same day venerate a great Elder, Father Paisius (Velichovsky) [+1794], who was said to have been direct in communication ("straightforward"). May the prayers of our Holy Father Paisius and all the saints join with ours for Vladyka, that our Lord Jesus Christ might have mercy on us all.
Thank you for giving a response/explaination to Protestants.
They don't understand (yet think themselves wise). Their fear of imagery is incredibly deep seated - almost brainwashing. But they are afraid of the wrong thing. Just keep speaking in Love as you are doing and the seed will take root. I know. I was an Evangelical Protestant won over by the gentle stable Christian life/discourse of Orthodox friends - whose home by the way was covered with icons.
I'm reposting the following comment as you may not gave seen it due to aggressive censoring.
asm > "No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion."
Honest debate will always foster an invitation to the Holy Trinity to bring truth and peace among us, if we work according to a few rules of etiquette. For example, MikeyCanuck123 makes a tacit invitation to the Holy Trinity to bring truth and peace by asking "How so?" At least a prayerful approach to dialogue about a conjecture with which he disagrees is 'implied' in an open-ended question such as his. I welcome respect to reflect the dialogue shared by the Holy Trinity among themselves and us.
There is another aspect to the temple/church that is being missed here.That is the community that it helps create. When one says that "I don't need the temple, because I am the temple," for example, this becomes egoistic and self-centred. "Community" is at the heart of Christianity. Have love among yourselves requires community, not "me the temple." Love of neighbours requires neighbours. It begins with the community, and the reaches out beyond.
To each his own. We have a community here in which the children interact freely with the adults, especially at the Agape after the Liturgy. They have a sense of security, learn how to interact with adults and receive the love and affection of all the community. It has very positive value. However, you are free to choose your own way, as are we.
This is a most interesting issue that never seems to resolve itself among people.
Icons (images) are obviously not exclusive to Christianity, but are certainly not forbidden by Christianity.
Strangely, Iconoclasts have difficulty in understanding.
The Bronze serpent commanded by Moses (for example) was not problematic until much later when people began to worship it in the Temple. Here, many Iconoclasts regard Icons under the same light.
But...Iconoclasts do not apply their same logic when confronted with the task of examining God creating man in his likeness/image (in the Greek "icon").
Perhaps Iconoclasts who are eager to smash idols have neglected to examine humanity as living icons whom even the angels bowed down before in order to exalt God.
Yet, Iconoclasts have no problem emulating and idolizing famous people, not taking into consideration the image they exalt or honour.
I had never read these passages!! Thank you, Vladika, for referring me to them. As far as I can remember, Orthodoxy having icons is linked to the Incarnation of Christ, who took on human flesh and became visible, and could thus be depicted in the icons. That;s why Orthodoxy has no icons of the Father or of the Holy Spirit.
Secondly - even though I come from a tradition that is highly iconoclastic - I have no problem with the veneration of icons and them being in church. Graven images are things that pretend to represent God in toto and are worshipped as a god. The golden calf for example in Exodus. Interestingly there are cattle holding the water up in the first temple.
Right. We should never presume to read our own thoughts into someone else's mind. There is too much of the "idolatry of the self." But to my mind, the greatest idolatry is hate and prejudice. Surely racism, etc., are forms of idolatry.
No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion. Such things are the ultimate idolatry, the ultimate form of self-worship.
asm > "No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion."
That is one theory. One interpretation of extending Paul's words, but not necessarily the correct one. By the way, Synagogues also had iconographic programmes, and or course, they were not the Temple, the were like the local High Street Baptist Church, only they had an iconographic programme in many of them.
Synagogues and mosques share the iconodoulism of a-contextual scripted texts and venerated words, which argues for the continuity of iconodoulism among all children of Abraham. Furthermore, we witness much the same in Jesus' words of institution, "This do in remembrance of Me," scripted on so-called serving tables in even houses of worship among some of the most iconoclastic descendants of the western Reformation.
Firstly until you read the bible passage I had no idea why the Mormons in their baptistries have the font supported by bulls - they are taking the building of the temple as their model for what I believe they call temples.
Which is precisely why the Ancient Christian Church developed a very strictly structured iconography: most people up until the late 1800s could not read. The iconography presented an illustrated Bible, including the representation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not for adoration. By the way "worship" means "to account worthy" that is why Mayors of cities are "your worship" and why Christ said that you could obtain worship by sitting in the lower seat and being moved to the higher.
The Jews were the most literate people in the ancient world. However, that does not say much about the rest of the world. The highest classes were somewhat literate, but the vast majority of people were not. Indeed, according the 1912 edition of the Ecy.Brit. Russia had a much higher literacy level that Britain, at about 30%. Population wise, only a small % were literate in the ancient world, and up until the late 1800.
Literate Jews and Moslem courtisans, counted among builders of sacred spaces after Vespassian sacked the second Temple, carved or painted icons in words that were just as opaque in what they meant to the uninitiated as "3:16"--a numeric advertisement inside a US football stadium-- obscures the love of God . My point is that those who do not appreciate the right use of divine words, as symbols from Holy Scripture, have achieved nothing greater than referential literacy, which is idolatry.
Take a look at Hebrews 8:5 it has a reference back to Ex 25:40 and 2Cor 3:4-18 both of these are by Paul. Take a look at Isaiah 6 and Rev. 4. In addition Malachi 1:11, Hebrews 13:8-9. Exodus 25,26,27and 28. We should get all of our 5 senses involved the the worship of God; not just our lips. A Church should be a "copy" of the Glory of the Heavenly worship.
Icons are written not painted; they communicate scripture with word pictures getting our eyes involved. Incense gets our sense of smell involved and communicates the sweat fragrance of our thoughts (prayers) going before God. In Orthodoxy we worship God everything around us in Church and the content of the Liturgy brings me to the point of "Woe is me" Isaiah 6:5
I agree our bodies can be temples of God. God can be in us and he is also amongst his people; 2Cor 6:16 and Rev 21:3. Earlier in John 2 Christ is cleansing the temple why would he do it? why would it be in the Bible for us to read? For your thoughful consideration Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:20 Acts 2:37,38,41,42-47; Ephesians 4+5. You will see in Acts many references to the Old Testiment. Matthew 5:17+18.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I don't know what Protestants make of the Bronze Serpent. What could be a clearer image of an Icon but the Bronze Serpent created by Moses?
JohnTheHutDweller 6 months ago
In Exodus 34:17 the specific prohibition is "molten" or "cast" idols. Wood with golden plating would not have been a violation.
In 2 Kings 16:17 Ahaz takes the sea off of the oxen and places it on the pavement.
HeroesofApostasy 1 year ago
Exuse me for not adding, i have nothing against images and pictures, for things that took place need to be remembered at times, but when my priest of the Macedonian Orthodox Church tells me to bow down for the situation that is drawn about on the pic, i feel it is idolising a fact far away from the true Living God YHWH. i mean no disrespect to you for you are doing your part as Gods will, this is one thing that has been on my mind since i've been saved.
mako6980 1 year ago
Depends on what you have in your heart when you are doing it, eh?
allsaintsmonastery 1 year ago
Yes our God told how to build the temple where His presence was in the time, but never told anyone to bow down in front 2 or 3 times and show on themselves symbols of faith that comes from the heart for God see'd inside and not out. As an Orthodox Christain that i was raised, please tell me how its ok to bow in front of a man made object with no power?
mako6980 1 year ago
I think I forgot to explain what I mean by that...
Why they asked God to show anything, was so that He would reveal to them who, if picked to be an Apostle, would make the best choices in his life as an Apostle, and also because maybe they did not wish to make the choice, since all 70 were all very good people (again, by their choices and ways of life)...
It is absurd and wrong to think of this "asking the Lord to show" as God picking and men sitting around and waiting for God to pick...
rockoMe 2 years ago
Those who didn't actively choose to be part of those 'lots' were not only excluded from taking part, but they weren't even mentioned!!
So human choice obviously came first! Because they all had to choose to be there and to take part...
rockoMe 2 years ago
And with regard to the wonderful example that you gave: do you believe there was one soul in those "lots" who didn't wish with all his heart to be chosen ?
Again, it's harder to see what's not there: it's harder to see that each and every one of those people in the "lots" shared their lives with the Apostles, prayed with them, spent Sundays together, ate the same food and so on...
So then, first they all chose to worship the Lord, and only then, the most gifted was then given the opprtunity
rockoMe 2 years ago
Because many can say "God appointed me to speak of Him!", but very few understand well enough to be worthy of speaking of Him...
And understanding is measured by one's effort, sacrifices, choices, and so on...
rockoMe 2 years ago
"The modern day teachers are whoever God appoints" - you're forgetting what I said earlier, that 'the understanding is ours'... therefore it is not up to God to make us understand, but it is up to us to understand.
Just how it wasn't up to God to make Adam stay in Heaven, but up to what Adam did.
rockoMe 2 years ago
But of course, don't think that I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is truly the Comforter...
I'm simply showing what the difference is between Him and what we think is what He taught us...
rockoMe 2 years ago
I remember I saw on someone's blog "wisdom comes from within", and this is sort'of similar with your idea that "the Holy Spirit is our Teacher".
Because wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself... That is why we treasure the hard works of faith of our Holy Fathers, why we remember them through icons, and so much more...
Because this is the context that was left to us by our Lord, and they kept it so that we would have it.
rockoMe 2 years ago
"But it is incumbent upon us to check what is being taught" - for anything to be taught there must exist a lesson, a method of teaching, an ability to learn and hard work dedicated to learning.... In everything...
The words of men are not meaningless, because they speak of those 4 things without which learning is not possible. Without them, we cannot learn anything. That is why without the words of good men, the Bible would be nothing more than a rulebook... because there would be no learning
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "The words of ***men*** are not meaningless... Without them, we cannot learn anything."
Oh, but we can.
1 Cor 2:4-5 - "And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of ***men***, but on the power of ***God***."
1 Cor 2:13 - "... not in words taught by ***human wisdom***, but in those taught by the ***Spirit***... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
@MikeyCanuck123 ok, well I ask you what does "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" mean ? Or what do "persuasive words of wisdom" mean ? And so on...
Because if you can answer, you use words, which show your understanding, i.e. how much you have learned... And if you can't explain, then they are just rules you follow, because you can't understand them, right ?
And your understanding may be less deep than others' understanding...
rockoMe 2 years ago
This is how unless you have other words to explain the meanings of what you read, i.e. what you learn, then it means you don't understand it, right ? And when you follow something you don't understand, you are simply following rules...
"not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit" I completely agree! But what is the spirit without words? What is the Spirit, without the Word of God, who is the one who sends us the comforter?
rockoMe 2 years ago
Again, wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself...
And without the words of good men (who understand better, because of their good heart and love) our understanding can never improve...
Of course there is some basic learning when we read anything, but when you get a second opinion on anything, chances are you get a better understanding of the topic... Hence, the context in which you are 'taught'...
rockoMe 2 years ago
And when I talk of a good heart, try to remember honesty!
Because if you sit here reading for the sole purpose to contradict, you are not honest and not good at heart. And if I were doing that, the same would apply.
The Church with the icons, the worship, the understanding in words of good men first, and so on, reflects the idea that wisdom, or any teaching, cannot exist without the context in which it reveals itself...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... try to remember honesty!"
Heh... you must always speak the truth, otherwise...
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth... " John 8:44
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Oh and Happy Holidays! (so I don't forget).
Well, yes that was part of what I meant.
I also meant that even though the words of men are meaningless without the references, in the same way the physical references are meaningless without understanding... And understanding comes from the words of men...
rockoMe 2 years ago
Here I also thought of what you said regarding the Holy Spirit teaching us: whenever we are tempted to lie, steal, kill, break the 10 commandments and so on, the Holy Spirit tells us, through our conscience and more, what the good thing to do is...
But the understanding of logic and science and such, as well as the Bible and other theological texts, can be guided by the Holy Spirit, but the understanding is ours...
rockoMe 2 years ago
And by "the understanding is ours" I simply mean that understanding depends on how willing we are to listen, to give up our own egoes and pride and make such sacrifices in order to understand better (and this goes for anything, from science to the Bible)
And some people are willing to sacrifice more, e.g. partying, socializing, having a family, etc., so that they can listen and apply what they learned better and have a better understanding.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And some people are willing to sacrifice more, e.g. partying, socializing, having a family, etc., so that they can listen and apply what they learned better and have a better understanding."
Yes, that is true.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And without the words of good men (who understand better, because of their good heart and love) our understanding can never improve...".
Ah, well, men can help us (teachers, etc), but all we *really* need is the Great Teacher.
John 14:26 - "... the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And if you can't explain, then they are just rules you follow, because you can't understand them, right ?"
Is this what you mean when you say 'words of men'?
If you're saying, 'rockoMe (whoever) can describe the Bible verse in her own words, thus it shows she understands its meaning.', yes, I agree.
In that sense they are important.
When I say that words of men are meaningless, what I mean is that you can't rely on peoples words, you need to use the Bible as your source.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And if you can't explain, then they are just rules you follow, because you can't understand them, right ?"
Well, if you can't explain, then really you don't understand.
So how could you effectively follow?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
And furthermore, many times it's harder to see what's not there: why did Jesus Christ only have 12 apostles and not the whole world? In other words, why did Christ Himself make a separation between some people who can have a better understanding, than others?
And the truth is, one of the reasons was that these people could best speak of Him to those who have a weaker understanding, and so on...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... why did Jesus Christ only have 12 apostles... these people could best speak... ".
Absolutely.
Everyone has their spiritual gift, & all Christians are part of one Body... with each part of the Body having it's particular function.
We all can't do the same thing, & we all need each other.
1 Cor 12:21 - "... the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you""
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Hi MC123
I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
This is the idea of Church I was getting at
Larryinct 2 years ago
Hi Larry.
I'm Canadian, so our Thanksgiving was a while ago, but thank you. Hope yours was as well.
Larryinct > "This is the idea of Church I was getting at... ".
Do you mean gathering together for thanksgiving to God?
Yes, I agree.
But we don't need icons or temples to do so.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Hi MC123, yes people gathering together for worship and thanksgiving; reading the Gospel and other parts of the Bible.
I have been following the other conversations with rockome; Do you mind if I interject something?
My Thanksgiving was good. I got to see my parents and one sister her daughter, husband and his family; thank you for asking.
Larryinct 2 years ago
Larryinct > "I have been following the other conversations with rockome; Do you mind if I interject something?"
Lar, I'd really like it if you would.
I'm enjoying the conversation with RockoMe & I encourage anyone to join in.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
As I was reading the posts and reflecting on what I have learned on this youtube channel. I kept thinking of 1 Cor 4:15-17. Who are the "ten thousand instructers in Christ" who are the " yet have ye not many fathers" Who are the modern day "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus", "as I teach every where in every church. " This also seems relevant to the over discussion.
What are your thoughts on it?
Larryinct 2 years ago
Larryinct > "Who are the modern day... Timotheus (teachers)"... This also seems relevant to the over discussion."
Acts 13:1 - "... in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul."
1 Cor 12:28 - "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers... ".
The modern day teachers are whoever God appoints.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Hi MC123 The Epistles contain a lot of information about the first Apostles combatting heresies, and them teaching people+sending them out and to the Churches to keep them in the True Gospel. As far as I can tell this is the only process that God set up to appoint Apostles. Paul was called to be a Apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, but he conferred with Peter and James and worked in harmony as an equal with the other Apostles. I agree God appoints, but I see a definitive process.
Larryinct 2 years ago
Larryinct > "I agree God appoints, but I see a definitive process."
Good point, the process.
Here's an interesting process;
Acts 1:24-26 - "And they prayed, and said, "You, Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." And they drew ***lots*** for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Lots!
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Well, of course, but do we dare compare ourselves with the Apostles? The wonders that they did were not fully understood by those who lived with them, and therefore when THEY asked the Lord to "show" it is not the same as when we would ask the Lord to "show"...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... therefore when THEY asked the Lord to "show" it is not the same as when we would ask the Lord to "show"... ".
Hee hee...
: )
Would it be safe to say that you're studying psychology, philosophy or debating at school?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Hehe, no not even close :P... Im in computing science, but thanks...
rockoMe 2 years ago
But you know what I meant by that, don't you ? That, well, if they asked God to move stars, they would move, etc...
rockoMe 2 years ago
But MikeyCanuck123, do you wish to imply that God can pick us to do anything, if we don't choose do to that thing? Because it is simply absurd... It's like saying God transforms us all into robots whenever He chooses to, right?
rockoMe 2 years ago
Hi MC123
Yes that did happen. If I remember correctly. The original Apostles looked to the 70 (Luke 10:1)to find a replacement for the Apostleship Judas turned aside. They narrowed it down, but could not decide; so they drew lots. To be there and learn from the Word made Flesh, in all the hours, days and years of this age to be there during those 3 years and as in Luke 10:23,24. Think, all the things they must of heard+seen in those 3 years. As John put it; in the last words of his Gospel21:25
Larryinct 2 years ago
Larryinct, interesting cross reference to Luke 10:1, since when the replacement was being chosen, Peter said it had to be someone who had, "... accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John, until the day that He was taken up from us... " (Acts 1:21,22).
John 21:25, yes, quite a descriptive comment! The whole world couldn't contain the books!
As you say, those 3 years of Christ's ministry... what an amazing time.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
And this is what it sort'of comes down to when we speak of the Chuch. Some people simply are better than us and more gifted at understanding, and have more faith and more love than us... And their words help us understand our Lord's teachings for us...
For this, think of the Catholic inquisition, the protestant burning-at-the-stake, and all these horrible things done to people because of a wrong interpretation... The words were the same, but the understanding so limited...
rockoMe 2 years ago
"That I speak of? Heh" - well, yes, everything we say, we say in our own understanding, even if it's just repeating...
"The words of men are meaningless" - this is so not true, not because the words of men would go beyond those of God Himself, but because the words of men are those that help us understand Christ's Teachings... Without the words of men, we would have a rulebook, not a belief in Christ and a law of love.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > ""The words of men are meaningless" - this is so not true... ".
In a sense I agree with you, because, as you mention, others can be better at interpreting & teaching the Word of God.
True.
But it is incumbent upon us to check what is being taught., Acts 17:11.
Remember, the Holy Spirit is our Teacher.
John 14:26 - "... the Holy Spirit... He will teach you all things... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "Without the words of men, we would have a rulebook... ".
Not sure that I'm following you here.
If you're referring to the Bible as a rulebook, I would have say that it is so much more, to the spiritually enlightened.
John 6:68 - "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.", and;
1 John 1:1 - "... the Word of Life... ", and;
Luke 11:28 - "... blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it." ... with the help of the Teacher (Holy Spirit).
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
I just remembered that even this being 'born-again' that you speak of is an action that is made because there is some faith... It is still an action, which results from human choice...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "I just remembered that even this being 'born-again' that you speak of... ".
That I speak of? Heh... I'm only repeating Christ's words. : )
The words of men are meaningless. The only thing that matters is the Truth.
The Way, the Truth & the Life.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "It is still an action, which results from human choice... ".
Yes, & this is a beautiful thing... that God allows us to make these choices. I dare say the best gift we could have. We aren't robots, God respects our opinion.
Once we understand Who God & Jesus are, then yes, our works will prove our faith.
James 2:18 - "I will show you my faith by my works."
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
So then it's hard for anyone to boast when knowing that without the gift of God and without grace we would have never done the same good things, that is, we would've never made the same choices...
rockoMe 2 years ago
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" - this statement is beautiful...
Because truly, the gift of God, and our faith do guide us so much and help us make the right choices (but again, the choices are still ours to make), and because of these, more will our works be for God...
But as roddymark, "Faith without works is dead" and I believe that. Because it would simply be unfair to have it any other way...
rockoMe 2 years ago
And I can't believe that God can choose to put someone in heaven, without that person doing anything to make him worthy... Not that He couldn't do it, since He is Allmighty, but that it wouldn't be fair...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And I can't believe that God can choose to put someone in heaven, without that person doing anything to make him worthy... Not that He couldn't do it, since He is Allmighty, but that it wouldn't be fair... ".
I know what you mean, but this is what the Bible says > Eph 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
That is true, and it was necessary for another Apostle to correct people like you who misconstrued it for their own ends: "Faith without works is dead....." Moreover, do you really believe that Paul had the power to override Jesus Christ who said "those whose works are good, to the resurrection of everlasting life, and those whose works are evil, to the resurrection of condemnation?" Did Christ lie, or are you misreading Paul? To whom did Christ say, "depart...I never knew you"?
roddymark 2 years ago
roddymark > "... like you who misconstrued it for their own ends... ".
Hi roddymark.
I have misconstrued what for my own ends?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Well, first of all I was thinking of my earlier statement "He can't choose us, unless we choose Him, right" and I'm sorry, I thought about it and I really don't mean that.... Because even though the people in the Old Testament didn't choose the God of Love, He still chose them and so much He loved the world that He allowed that He be crucified for our sins...
rockoMe 2 years ago
"But as far as us being chosen to begin with, that starts with God." - Well, I completely agree; and I remember some words of Saints who said "every grain of sand in this universe, for God it is counted"(I may have translated it wrong, but you understand what I mean)
That's why I think of God choosing us in terms of the gifts that we have...Some are more talented at philosophy, some at mechanics, and so on...
rockoMe 2 years ago
And this means that we should not think of the statement "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" in terms of giving up our free will...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And this means that we should not think of the statement "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" in terms of giving up our free will... '
Again, I completely agree... as far as giving up our free will.
But as far as us being chosen, that starts with God. He has to choose us first.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "And this means that we should not think of the statement "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" in terms of giving up our free will... ".
In other words, on a day to day basis, we choose to follow God. We use our free will to do His will.
I agree.
But as far as us being chosen to begin with, that starts with God. He has to choose us first. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (born again) occurs when we accept His invitation of salvation through Jesus Christ.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
God doesn't baptize just some people that He chooses to.... If everyone in the world were baptized and born-again there would still be many called, but few chosen...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "God doesn't baptize just some people that He chooses to... ".
What makes you say that?
John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Well, what I meant was that we shouldn't think that God chooses us, but that we choose Him above our own will.
So if we are baptized, and born-again (in the right understanding), and we don't choose to have mercy, and compassion, and love then we don't really choose Him.
And then again, if we have never heard of Jesus Christ (and therefore we never got baptized) but we love, and have compassion and mercy, then we have love of Christ....
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "Well, what I meant was that we shouldn't think that God chooses us, but that we choose Him above our own will."
Sorry, not following.
"... we chose Him above our own will." ?
And yes, He chooses us > John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Choosing God above our own will, means simply to choose to do the right thing, even though we want to do something else... Just like we may wish not to forgive, or to take vengeance on someone for hurting us..
Regarding your second statement, well, we have the right to choose, don't we? He can't choose us, unless we choose Him, right?
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "Choosing God above our own will, means simply to choose to do the right thing, even though we want to do something else... ".
Ah, ok. Yes, I agree completely. That's so true.
rockoMe > "Regarding your second statement, well, we have the right to choose, don't we? He can't choose us, unless we choose Him, right?"
Well, according to the Scripture I provided > John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you... ", He chooses us.
Correct?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
So the point I'm trying to make is that if you are born-again and do not have love in your life, and you do not have compassion, and you do not have love, but only pride, it's worse than not being born-again but living a life of love...
rockoMe 2 years ago
"*If* you are *baptized* by the ***Holy Spirit*** you become a Christian... huge difference from any other kind of baptism. " -> you are trying to correct me, instead of understanding what I was saying...
...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church... Because the Church can't possibly be made of killers and murderers and those who don't love Christ, even if they are baptized... It can't be made of people who don't sing to God, who don't pray together to God, etc.
rockoMe 2 years ago
MikeyCanuck123, I'm a little bit scared cause I tell you things, and you handpick a small part of that and try to contradict .... Is there anything that you listen to ?
All I'm saying is that you need a lot more than to be born again to be a follower of Christ...
Argue with this idea... I don't know how simple to make it, because I keep trying to give you proofs and complex logics, but you just don't want to understand this very simple idea: that you need more than just born-againism.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... you handpick a small part of that and try to contradict .... Is there anything that you listen to ?"
I hear one thing that needs to be corrected before we go anywhere.
rockoMe > "...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church...".
Wrong.
This is the problem right here.
There may be people who *call* themselves Christians, but they aren't Christians until God says they are, that is, until they're baptized by the Holy Spirit (born again), Eph. 1:13.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Again, handpicking to contradict....
"That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church... Because the Church can't possibly be made of killers and murderers and those who don't love Christ, even if they are baptized" ... why take only the beginning ?
rockoMe 2 years ago
I could easily rephrase that as: Because the Holy Body of Christ cannot be made of people who kill and do horribly bad things, the Church is not made of those people even if they are baptized ....
Are we playing with words now ?
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe, we have to be very sure what we're talking about.
In this limited forum, you have to take it step by step.
Thus, I reiterate;
rockoMe > "...That there are many Christians who are not part of the Church...".
Wrong.
This is the problem right here.
There may be people who *call* themselves Christians, but they aren't Christians until God says they are, that is, until they're baptized by the Holy Spirit (born again), Eph. 1:13.
Agreed?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
What I am saying is that they can call themselves Christians, the whole world can call them Christians, they can be baptized 2000 times, but if their acts don't correspond to one who follows Christ and they don't have love, they are not part of the Church.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rock, we're getting close.
I agree for the most part with your last statement > "What I am saying is that they can call themselves Christians... ".
Here's the difference.
You're talking human *baptism*.
I'm talking Divine *baptism*.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
It's so simple, and I'm being so honest... I'm not trying to convert you or anything, I'm just trying to tell you that those without love are like Judas... Judas was baptized, born again, and is the symbol of the most horrible evil... And he was baptized.
There may be Redemption, for those who never heard of Christ, and were never baptized, and live a life with love... But there is only death for those who in their lives, do great sins without repenting.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rock, please stay focused.
Judas wasn't baptized by the Holy Spirit (or even H2O baptized AFAIK), nor was he born again.
Re-read this > You're (rockoMe) talking human *baptism*.
I'm (MC123) talking ***Divine*** *baptism*.
HUGE difference, no comparison... completely different.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Again, did you understand how the B->S implication is wrong?
And how people think that being 'born-again' supposedly earns them anything and all they have to do is become 'born-again'?
rockoMe 2 years ago
If being "born again" in the context of "bornagainism" could actually chance or transform people, then Fundamentalists would not be so cruel and filled with the kind of hate that they constantly preach; and they certainly would have been in the forefront of demanding a universal healthcare system in the U.S. rather than desiring to leave tens of thousands of Amricans with no access to proper healthcare.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "If being "born again" in the context of "bornagainism"... ".
Born again in the context of the Boss.
John 3:3,7; 1Peter 1:3, 23.
The only context that matters.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
MikeyCanuck123, you're being a little stubborn and I'm not sure if it's by choice or if you honestly don't understand what I'm saying....
Did you understand how the B->S implication is wrong?
Also, did you understand how people make the B->S implication in their lives?
rockoMe 2 years ago
Yes, because citizenship is written in papers... But redemption is written in choices...
In other words, I made a direct separation between us calling ourselves 'Christian', and Jesus Christ calling us 'Christian', that is, referring to His Church.
I believe this is what born-again-ism supporters do, which is to try to have one good action in time make them worthy of Redemption.
Think of Judas, how many good actions he did supposedly for Christ, yet he is the symbol of Christian betrayal.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... I made a direct separation between us calling ourselves 'Christian', and Jesus Christ calling us 'Christian', that is, referring to His Church."
That has nothing to do with what I was saying about being born again or the Church (Body of Christ).
If I call myself an Aussie, but don't have the papers, I'm not.
*I* may have said it, I may want it, but I'm not truly Aussie.
As I said before, the only way to be born again is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit... an act of God.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
What I was saying is simple:
1) if you are baptized, you become officially a Christian;
2) Christian means follower and worshiper of Christ;
3) if you go around killing people and doing all sorts of bad things, you are not following Christ even though you did get baptized.... make sense ?
This means that you can get baptized, but because of your actions you cannot possibly be part of the Church.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "1) if you are baptized, you become officially a Christian;"
*If* you are *baptized* by the ***Holy Spirit*** you become a Christian... huge difference from any other kind of baptism.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
So if Christ Himself doesn't make the implication B->S, why would anyone else?
And this means, that if you are born again (and when I say that I mean born-again in the understanding that was given in the early days), you are not guaranteed to see... But isn't being a Christian seeing and believing in Christ?
Of course, these are ways by which I explain the meaning of the language, and the Bible should very rarely be explained in such terms.
rockoMe 2 years ago
The beginning allows you to see, but if you don't look then it's the same as not being able to see...
rockoMe 2 years ago
In terms of logics, and the quote you gave me John 3:3, I believe it was, you wrongfully assume the direct is equivalent to the contrapositive (check Wikipedia if these terms don't make sense).
Let the statement B = "one is born-again", and statement S = "one sees the kingdom of God", the statement you gave me says !B -> !S, which is not in any way equivalent to the wrong B->S....
At most you may transform it in, say S->B, which means, if one does see, then he must have been born again...
rockoMe 2 years ago
Well yes, MikeyCanuck123, because it doesn't....
Think of it this way....if all you do is begin, you're not a Christian... and if you do more than just begin, then it's not the beginning that makes you Christian...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... if all you do is begin, you're not a Christian... ".
I believe this is the flaw in your logic.
If I transfer citizenship from Canada to Australia, as soon as I start (begin) the journey as an Australian, that is, I sign the citizenship papers (born again), I am indeed an Australian & enjoy all the benefits of being such.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Comment removed
rockoMe 2 years ago
When people say I am a "Born again Christian" it is like saying I own a "car on wheels"
It's obvious that to be a Christian you have to be born again in Christ, but that is just the beginning to being Christian. And what's the point of beginning, when you don't live a life with love of Christ (i.e. the general 'you')
And many people use 'born-again'-ism as an excuse not to live a life with love of Christ, and say that to begin the journey for Christ is enough, and you don't need the journey
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "It's obvious that to be a Christian you have to be born again in Christ, but that is just the beginning to being Christian."
Uhmmm... you said yesterday, "But being 'born-again' on its own doesn't make anyone part of the Church!"
Christian = Member of the Body of Christ (Church)
Just because it's the ***beginning*** of your walk with Christ, doesn't mean you're ***not*** part of the Body of Christ, ie His Church (Ekklesia).
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
MikeyCanuck123, again, try to think a bit more because you use quotes that completely support what I just said...
He says "UNLESS", which means if you're not born again, you can't see... But He doesn't say that you can see anything, even if you are born again...
This means that you have to be born-again to be a Christian, but even if you're a Christian you're not guaranteed to see anything... It takes lot more!
Again, think of the "Car on wheels" analogy.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "He says "UNLESS", which means if you're not born again, you can't see... But He doesn't say that you can see anything, even if you are born again...".
I see...
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Vladika, if I may ask you: could you please talk a bit, in a future video, about how the Church Fathers spread the knowledge about the Word of God to the pagans in the early days and the hardship they went through so that people would hear of the Word of God?
Because I've noticed some saying that the Church is made by ordinary people, and thus wrongfully try to consider themselves even close to the greatness of our Church Fathers and forget what the Fathers went through for our sake...
rockoMe 2 years ago
Well, MikeyCanuck123, what I was saying is that the Church is made of those people who live a life with love of Christ...
But being 'born-again' on its own doesn't make anyone part of the Church! Or as you say, the body of Christ. Because how can the body of our Lord be made of people who don't truly live a life with love of Christ?
This is because many are called but few are chosen... Just like many are 'born-again', but few truly go passed this beginning to live a life with love of Christ.
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "But being 'born-again' on its own doesn't make anyone part of the Church!"
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is ***born again***, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
1 Peter 1:3-4 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be ***born again*** to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable... ".
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Just like what I was saying earlier, that being born-again doesn't make anyone part of the Church (or a good person)... Because being born-again is just the beginning...
It is the love of Christ and living a truly Christian life that makes a person good or bad.
And most people use the excuse of 'born again'-ism to say that the beginning of a life in Christ is enough and excuse their laziness; truly this isn't the case, because as I said, the beginning is nothing without the continuation!
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... being born-again doesn't make anyone part of the Church ... ".
Not quite following you here.
The only way to be born again is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit.
At that point you are part of the Church or Ekklesia or Body of Christ.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
To say that one is a "born-again Christian" is like saying "I own a car on wheels".
It should be obvious that to be Christian means to be born again in Christ, by baptism and by choice, but that's just the beginning...
That's why most people like to think of being Christian as living a life with love of Christ. Because a beginning without the continuation is nothing.
rockoMe 2 years ago
MikeyCanuck123, you say allsaintsmonastery is bitter, but what he makes reference to is the human temptation to take pride in their understanding, which is very malicious...
From his comments it's obvious that he doesn't attack you personally in any way, unless, obviously, you feel that you are part of what he describes as malicious...
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "From his comments it's obvious that he doesn't attack you personally in any way... ".
allsaintsmonastery > Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations.
You may have missed this one, rock.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
In fact, it was the Church, with the apostolic authority, that created the New Testament and determined which canon of the O.T. to use in creating the Bible. Remember that there were around 50 "Gospels" to be chosen from, and the Church, on her apostolic authority, chose them; nor were the members of the Council unaware of the apparent contradictions in the 4 Gospels. They tested the Gospels against the Liturgy, which is older than the written Gospels. The Church gave the N.T. its authority
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "... Church, on her apostolic authority, chose them... The Church gave the N.T. its authority."
I see.
'Apostolic authority'.
So God had nothing to do with it.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
We do not. We have no way of reading the hearts and souls of other people. Why would we want to judge them? As Christ has suggested, who are we to judge another man's servants? Christ, after all, is the only one who is able to judge such matters. We must presume that we do not know the inner recesses of another: their personal suffering, their mental condition, their deep struggles against those very weaknesses that make us delude that they are "bad."
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
What were Christ's EXACT words to Nicodemos?? When I was in India, I heard many testimonies of born again Buddhists and Hindus, which match precisely the Protestant notion of BornagainISM. Same testimonials, same glowing intensity, same personally knowing the Buddha or Krishna, or Siva. Baptism is a mystery worked by the indwelling Holy Spirit, by Divine Grace. It was given by God so that we not fall into the delusion of the sectarian's "ism"
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
No, nor even the concept as understood by Sectarians with their "born-againISM." Christ clearly spoke of the mystery of baptism, in which the Holy Spirit acts upon the water and the believer. He said, "born again of water and the spirit," not an emotional experience. The Holy Sp. hovered over the primordial waters of creation and brought forth life. Orthodox Christian baptism is the same; the font is the womb of the Church into which one is reborn by grace, not emotionalism.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
The Church of the living Christ is indeed made up of the good, the bad and the ugly as well as the beautiful. The tares will be gathered out only on the day of the harvest; in the meantime, there is hope for all, even the bad and the ugly. There is, however, precious little hope for the self-righteous "born again-ites" with their interpretations so contrary to those of the Apostolic Church. The Church is a worshiping body. There is unity in the Orthodoxy Church absent from the cacophony of (cont
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "Which being interpreted means "read it and make up your own personal interpretation of it, and try to hammer your personal interpretations onto other people, or just harrass them with your obsessions about your personal interpretations."
Someone should alert allsaintsmonastery that somone has hijacked his Youtube account, as this is obviously not something a mature person would write.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
I have had far too many conversations with people who have renounced Christianity not to know that being attacked with the Bible and the contradictory interpretations of the hundreds of Protestant sects, each with its own set of interpretations, is a major cause of the renunciation of Christianity. Not being able to face that is the real lack of maturity.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "I have had far too many conversations with people who have renounced Christianity not to know that being attacked with the Bible and the contradictory interpretations of the hundreds of Protestant sects, each with its own set of interpretations, is a major cause of the renunciation of Christianity."
Uhmmm... because people supposedly have different interpretations of the Bible I now renounce Christ?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Actually, Christ Himself ties the meaning of "born again" with Baptism, saying that we must be born again "of water and the spirit." Sectarians who invented the new meaning of "born again" as an emotional experience, one shared by Budhist, Hindus and almost all pagans, are completely out of step with the beliefs of the Apostles and apostolic Christians. Christ said "water and the spirit," not "an emotional experience." There is, of course, something very profound about Christ's words. (cont.)
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
If being evil-minded, cruel and malicious eleminates one from the Church, then clearly no Fundamentalists or right-wing Protestant can possibly be in the the Church of the Living God, because so much of what Fundamentalists preach is harsh and cruel, and contrary to what Christ taught by word and example.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "If being evil-minded, cruel and malicious eleminates one from the Church, then clearly no Fundamentalists or right-wing Protestant can possibly be in the the Church of the Living God, because so much of what Fundamentalists preach is harsh and cruel, and contrary to what Christ taught by word and example."
As I mentioned earlier, someone should alert allsaintsmonastery that somone has hijacked his Youtube account, as these are words of someone very bitter & deluded.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
I don't think so, MC123. Fundamentalists tend to favour the death penalty, to want to impose their perspectives upon others using the Civil, secular power to do so, and to support the curtailment of the civil rights of others. They are far more likely to advocate for the cruelest parts of the Old Testament that to convey a consciousness of the teaching and actions of Christ. Such fradulent constructs as "scientific creationism," etc, are all products of the religious right.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "... then clearly no Fundamentalists or right-wing Protestant can possibly be in the the Church of the Living God... "
None, huh.
Quite the pronouncement.
ASM, if you actually wrote that, I ask that you have a few of your close friends critique it & see what they say.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
As our beloved father Paul told us, ``Be emulators of me, as I am an emulator of Christ.`` Christ and the Apostles were living icons which we are to emulate, just as the icons on the walls of the Church call upon to seek the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles, Martyrs and wonderworkers of all ages; all of whom were emulators of Christ and His apostles, according to the New Testament.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
That's why I was talking about the people who try harder; because the Church is made of those who wish to try as hard as possible to love God with all their hearts with respect to the teachings they've had for many many years, as best they can.
Because if it weren't for them, the Bible and everything we know about the Word of God would not exist, right?
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "Isn't it fair to put some effort (i.e. sacrifice) for God ?"
Beyond question.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
rockoMe > "... how do people know what is the right way to understand and worship? How is the right understanding of God's Word kept away from human mistake?"
Again, the Lord reveals whatever He wants to whoever He wants.
Adam didn't have the Scriptures or anything to guide him, but he fellowshipped with God.
Naturally, the Scriptures are very helpful, esp. the NT, since it details the New Covenant that we're living under.
We also have the Holy Spirit who is called our Teacher & Helper.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Excellent video! We must also remember that the Jews did have icons apart from the Cherubim in the synagogues. For example the magnificent synagogue in Dura Europos, which had an entire wall covered with icons of the Old Testament events and saints, such as the prophets. I'm also being blessed by doing a study on the writings of St. Theodore the Abbot of Studios, who is not as well known as St. John of Damascus, but still a wonderfull theologian. God bless!
psevdhome 2 years ago
I mean, obviously prayer and community can exist without the church, but how can we worship Jesus Christ if we forget those who sacrificed themselves and their lives, and their fortunes so that we would know His name?
Because yes, I completely agree with part of what you're implying, that worshiping can and should exist within ourselves. That is why the Church recognizes unknown saints
But you're also implying that we can worship without the teachings of the Holy Church, and that is ecumenism
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "But you're also implying that we can worship without the teachings of the Holy Church, and that is ecumenism"
Yes, exactly.
All you need is God.
A Bible is nice, other Christians are nice, but God can & does reveal Himself in many ways to anyone He desires.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
MikeyCanuck123, you do know that one of the direct implications of ecumenism is forgetting Jesus Christ, His name, His sacrifices and the sacrifices of those who followed Him, right ?
I mean, how can you worship Jesus Christ as God, when He said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when you imply that there are many other ways, truths and lives ?
rockoMe 2 years ago
rockoMe > "I mean, how can you worship Jesus Christ as God, when He said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, when you imply that there are many other ways, truths and lives ?"
Jesus Christ *is* the only way to Heaven.
Implying that there's other ways?
Nope.
: )
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
More properly, henotheism.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
HeroesofApostasy > "What have I missed? You think that Houses of Worship are irrelevant and are no longer necessary, yet you use one, whether occasionally or not."
Yes, I use them occasionally, when invited. If they weren't there I wouldn't use them at all! And I wouldn't ask that they be built.
I don't necessarily like what cars do to the environment, but I still use one until I can find a better way.
I don't like abortion, but I'm not going to start my own country.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
I agree with your comment about the straightforward approach to this selection by Vladyka Lazar. As we Orthodox Christians using the new calendar begin the Fast of the Nativity tomorrow (15 November), and on the same day venerate a great Elder, Father Paisius (Velichovsky) [+1794], who was said to have been direct in communication ("straightforward"). May the prayers of our Holy Father Paisius and all the saints join with ours for Vladyka, that our Lord Jesus Christ might have mercy on us all.
ioannismiami 2 years ago
Thank you for giving a response/explaination to Protestants.
They don't understand (yet think themselves wise). Their fear of imagery is incredibly deep seated - almost brainwashing. But they are afraid of the wrong thing. Just keep speaking in Love as you are doing and the seed will take root. I know. I was an Evangelical Protestant won over by the gentle stable Christian life/discourse of Orthodox friends - whose home by the way was covered with icons.
macpduff 2 years ago
Hi ASM.
I'm reposting the following comment as you may not gave seen it due to aggressive censoring.
asm > "No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion."
I see...
Let's start with spiritual delusion.
How so?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Honest debate will always foster an invitation to the Holy Trinity to bring truth and peace among us, if we work according to a few rules of etiquette. For example, MikeyCanuck123 makes a tacit invitation to the Holy Trinity to bring truth and peace by asking "How so?" At least a prayerful approach to dialogue about a conjecture with which he disagrees is 'implied' in an open-ended question such as his. I welcome respect to reflect the dialogue shared by the Holy Trinity among themselves and us.
ioannismiami 2 years ago
ioannismiami > "Honest debate will always foster an invitation to the Holy Trinity to bring truth and peace among us... ".
You nailed that one.
The question of spiritual delusion is so important, you're absolutely right, let's make sure we invite the Trinity of God into our thoughts & speech.
Amen.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
There is another aspect to the temple/church that is being missed here.That is the community that it helps create. When one says that "I don't need the temple, because I am the temple," for example, this becomes egoistic and self-centred. "Community" is at the heart of Christianity. Have love among yourselves requires community, not "me the temple." Love of neighbours requires neighbours. It begins with the community, and the reaches out beyond.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Hi allsaintsmonastery.
> "There is another aspect to the temple/church that is being missed here.That is the community that it helps create."
Yes, a place of worship does create community, & I have been a part of church (temple) centered community.
The thing is, you don't need a temple to worship or have community. They really are more bureaucracy & unneeded expense.
So, is it the best way to create community? Following Jesus' & Paul's example, I'd have to say no.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
To each his own. We have a community here in which the children interact freely with the adults, especially at the Agape after the Liturgy. They have a sense of security, learn how to interact with adults and receive the love and affection of all the community. It has very positive value. However, you are free to choose your own way, as are we.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
allsaintsmonastery > "However, you are free to choose your own way, as are we."
Yes, we all make our paths.
May God bless you richly, Mike.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
This is a most interesting issue that never seems to resolve itself among people.
Icons (images) are obviously not exclusive to Christianity, but are certainly not forbidden by Christianity.
Strangely, Iconoclasts have difficulty in understanding.
The Bronze serpent commanded by Moses (for example) was not problematic until much later when people began to worship it in the Temple. Here, many Iconoclasts regard Icons under the same light.
But...
MrGriegos 2 years ago
But...Iconoclasts do not apply their same logic when confronted with the task of examining God creating man in his likeness/image (in the Greek "icon").
Perhaps Iconoclasts who are eager to smash idols have neglected to examine humanity as living icons whom even the angels bowed down before in order to exalt God.
Yet, Iconoclasts have no problem emulating and idolizing famous people, not taking into consideration the image they exalt or honour.
MrGriegos 2 years ago
I had never read these passages!! Thank you, Vladika, for referring me to them. As far as I can remember, Orthodoxy having icons is linked to the Incarnation of Christ, who took on human flesh and became visible, and could thus be depicted in the icons. That;s why Orthodoxy has no icons of the Father or of the Holy Spirit.
cuttlefisch 2 years ago
orthodoxy is so beautiful
simsimaz2 2 years ago
Secondly - even though I come from a tradition that is highly iconoclastic - I have no problem with the veneration of icons and them being in church. Graven images are things that pretend to represent God in toto and are worshipped as a god. The golden calf for example in Exodus. Interestingly there are cattle holding the water up in the first temple.
johncrwarner 2 years ago
Right. We should never presume to read our own thoughts into someone else's mind. There is too much of the "idolatry of the self." But to my mind, the greatest idolatry is hate and prejudice. Surely racism, etc., are forms of idolatry.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion. Such things are the ultimate idolatry, the ultimate form of self-worship.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Comment removed
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
asm > "No need for hate and prejudice in the New Testaments, but Evangelical and Fundamentalists Protestantism is the primary repository of hate, malice, prejudice and spiritual delusion."
I see...
Let's start with spiritual delusion.
How so?
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
That is one theory. One interpretation of extending Paul's words, but not necessarily the correct one. By the way, Synagogues also had iconographic programmes, and or course, they were not the Temple, the were like the local High Street Baptist Church, only they had an iconographic programme in many of them.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Synagogues and mosques share the iconodoulism of a-contextual scripted texts and venerated words, which argues for the continuity of iconodoulism among all children of Abraham. Furthermore, we witness much the same in Jesus' words of institution, "This do in remembrance of Me," scripted on so-called serving tables in even houses of worship among some of the most iconoclastic descendants of the western Reformation.
ioannismiami 2 years ago
Firstly until you read the bible passage I had no idea why the Mormons in their baptistries have the font supported by bulls - they are taking the building of the temple as their model for what I believe they call temples.
johncrwarner 2 years ago
That is true, and I am sure that there is no idolatry about it in the Mormon temple, it is just an imitation of the First Temple.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Hi ASM.
Protestant fundamentalist brother here.
I've read the entire OT at least two times, the NT many times.
The iconography (as you call it) in the OT Temple, was ordained by God. Not to worshiped, but as a physical representation of the spiritual.
Cont'd...
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
@MikeyCanuck123
All our Iconography in Orthodoxy is to represent the spiritual. We also do not worship the Icons we venerate them (there is a difference)
StupidJuiceYa 2 years ago
Hi SJY.
Thanx for your response.
I'm reposting the rest of my comment from yesterday, which may shed more light on my position.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Which is precisely why the Ancient Christian Church developed a very strictly structured iconography: most people up until the late 1800s could not read. The iconography presented an illustrated Bible, including the representation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not for adoration. By the way "worship" means "to account worthy" that is why Mayors of cities are "your worship" and why Christ said that you could obtain worship by sitting in the lower seat and being moved to the higher.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Hi ASM.
Iconography as an illustrated Bible is an interesting idea.
Your statement that most people couldn't read is questionable. The ancient Hebrews mostly used text for religion, as God directed.
Jesus never talked about iconography when referring to Scripture.
Paul never referred to iconography, but relied on text & oration to convey messages.
I know what worship means, & am using it in the following context > "... for you shall not worship any other god... "
Ex 34:14
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
The Jews were the most literate people in the ancient world. However, that does not say much about the rest of the world. The highest classes were somewhat literate, but the vast majority of people were not. Indeed, according the 1912 edition of the Ecy.Brit. Russia had a much higher literacy level that Britain, at about 30%. Population wise, only a small % were literate in the ancient world, and up until the late 1800.
allsaintsmonastery 2 years ago
Literate Jews and Moslem courtisans, counted among builders of sacred spaces after Vespassian sacked the second Temple, carved or painted icons in words that were just as opaque in what they meant to the uninitiated as "3:16"--a numeric advertisement inside a US football stadium-- obscures the love of God . My point is that those who do not appreciate the right use of divine words, as symbols from Holy Scripture, have achieved nothing greater than referential literacy, which is idolatry.
ioannismiami 2 years ago
Hi MC123
Take a look at Hebrews 8:5 it has a reference back to Ex 25:40 and 2Cor 3:4-18 both of these are by Paul. Take a look at Isaiah 6 and Rev. 4. In addition Malachi 1:11, Hebrews 13:8-9. Exodus 25,26,27and 28. We should get all of our 5 senses involved the the worship of God; not just our lips. A Church should be a "copy" of the Glory of the Heavenly worship.
See continued
Larryinct 2 years ago
continued
Icons are written not painted; they communicate scripture with word pictures getting our eyes involved. Incense gets our sense of smell involved and communicates the sweat fragrance of our thoughts (prayers) going before God. In Orthodoxy we worship God everything around us in Church and the content of the Liturgy brings me to the point of "Woe is me" Isaiah 6:5
Larryinct 2 years ago
Hi Larry.
Thank you very much for your insightful response.
I like the Scripture references. The Bible is our Standard.
True that we should get more than our lips into service for God, indeed our whole body.
Larryinct > "A Church should be a "copy" of the Glory of the Heavenly worship."
This is probably the main point I'm trying to respectfully make. Jesus said His body was a Church (Temple), Jn 2:21.
1Cor. 3:16 - we ".. are a temple of God... "
No more need for 'the' Temple or icons.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Hi MC123
I agree our bodies can be temples of God. God can be in us and he is also amongst his people; 2Cor 6:16 and Rev 21:3. Earlier in John 2 Christ is cleansing the temple why would he do it? why would it be in the Bible for us to read? For your thoughful consideration Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:20 Acts 2:37,38,41,42-47; Ephesians 4+5. You will see in Acts many references to the Old Testiment. Matthew 5:17+18.
Larryinct 2 years ago
Hi Larry.
Again, thank you for the Scripture references, it's the only way go. : )
You & I are close in many ways, but I do see a difference.
In Mt. 5:17, Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."
When something is fulfilled, it is finished.
Jesus fulfilled the OT lamb sacrifice by becoming the Ultimate Sacrifice... we no longer sacrifice the lamb.
No sacrifices = no Temple... because *we* are now the 'Temple'.
MikeyCanuck123 2 years ago
Not so fast. The rest of what he says..........
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I don't recall Heaven and Earth passing away.
HeroesofApostasy 2 years ago
Comment removed
sandiego123456 2 years ago
Hi HeroesofApostasy, thank you for your response.
Mt. 5:18 &19 - until the new Heaven & earth, all of God's laws need to be fulfilled & whoever breaks them is sinning.
Yes.
John 1:29 - "... the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
1 Peter 1:19 - "... a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."
Heb 10:4 - "... it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
Heb 10:12 - "... He, having offered one sacrif