@VitaVeda Either state a countering fact or prove any of the researched facts here are untrue (all of them have been researched and are factual). Comments of pure hatred without anything constructive are not welcome
This video created by Zionists: most of those "facts" just not true ! They brain wash you people. Go to find out the truth about who was behind all of those bloody wars and revolutions !
@VitaVeda Please go look up all of the statistics in this video. You will see they are true. It is perhaps too shocking for people so stuck in conspiracy theory to confront hard facts. Look them all up yourself. People have unfortunately been at war for ages. There is a lunatic fringe that blames a small group of people of plotting all of these wars. You seem to be among them.
@VitaVeda actually, math was created by Egyptians and some great improvements by the Greeks. But thank you for giving Zionists credit for statistics.
This videos is about the sad truth that wars have been going on for a long time. No one group is responsible for all of these fights. It is a problem within all of us but we can be the cure too
@palimpsestransparent There has never been -nor will there ever be -a shortage of jews or Israelis critical of their own actions. Its a society infused with a challenge of the statusquo, and being self critical to improve upon itself. It is part of what makes it a leader in the field of science and medicine.
It will continue to try to "humanely" fight wars. Compare to blind drone attacks; Syria torture; bombings in Nigeria, Iraq, threats to wipeout a country like Iran, etc.
@firstonethrough Please look up the facts. Israel never attempts to fight "humanely". On the contrary: It is well-documented that the IDF forces daily assassinate, torture, humiliate, maim innocent Palestinian civilians, as well as attack civilian areas blindly with highly-destructive weapons, some of them illegal. Their rules for engagement in the Gaza invasion were simply "there are no rules of engagement. Do whatever you want to whomever you want". And that's what they did. Worse than Nazis.
@palimpsestransparent I openly acknowledge the facts - as I said, jews and Israelis always seek to review behavior - quite counter to other organizations. Note how Israel was berated for accidentally killing 9 people in one operation and the UN cant do anything about Syria that kills an average of 15 people EVERY DAY for 15 years.
Also review "Jenin Massacre" where IDF went door-to-door to minimize civilian casualties - at its own peril. The world condemned them still.
@firstonethrough You are mentioning an accidental killing of 9 people, I am mentioning wilful killing of hundreds of innocent civilians. You mention an operation where the IDF went door-to-door to minimize casualties. I can mention hundreds of cases, inlcuding Gaza 2009, where the IDF wilfully maximized civilian casualties. Israeli policy is aimed at killing civilians and uses the IDF to do so.
Luckily, ex-IDF soldiers are now starting to speak out:
@palimpsestransparent You neglect to mention that 10,000 rockets aimed at civilians. The slaughter of babies in their beds. The bombing of people having a seder dinner. The bombing of mothers and kids having pizza. The bombing of teenagers dancing at a disco... Thousands of unarmed civilians going about their daily lives being slaughtered. Vs. IDF seeking out killers and bombers who accidentally kill civs too.
And compare the casualty figures to Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan...
@firstonethrough By making a list, someone with less knowledge of the facts might be fooled into thinking that both sides have committed an approximately equal amount of atrocities, which is not the case at all. Just to give you an example, you mention 10,000 rockets, which sounds scary, but in actual fact, the civilians killed by Hassam primitive rockets amount to 1 person per YEAR over the past 10 years, so please give the full figures, not selectively what whitewashes Israeli crimes.
@palimpsestransparent Those are 10,000 rockets sent at civilian targets after Israel left Gaza. That compares to the IDF launching a defensive war to stop the rocket fire.
@firstonethrough That's completely untrue. Please provide your sources of reference regarding your claim that 10,000 rockets were fired after Israel left Gaza in 2009.
Let me give you the official statistics from the Israeli Security Agency:
2009 - 569 rockets launched
2010 - 150 rockets launched
Where do you see 10,000 rockets? In your cartoon world again?
And my statistics of approx. 1 death per year due to rocket attacks still holds true. Compare this to hundreds killed by Israeli bombs.
@firstonethrough What do you mean by "you finally acknowledge unprovoked assault"? I did no such thing. The rocket attacks and suicide bombings only started in 2001 after years during which the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths was 20 to 1.
I firmly believe that the launching of home-made rockets aimed randomly at Israel is a direct consequence of Israeli assassination, torture and humiliation of innocent Palestinians.
@firstonethrough ... and by the way, you still have not provided me with the source from where you got your 10,000 rockets launched after 2009 as opposed to the official statistics of 700. Or did you simply invent that statistic and are now diverting the conversation just like the teddy bears do in your cartoons?
But its irrelevant if you defend the use of these attacks and suicide bombings. It means you are part of the problem that will never agree to live in peace alongside Israel. You will never be happy
@firstonethrough When did I ever defend these rocket attacks? I have never in my life defended attacking civilians with rockets or killing civilians via suicide-bomb attacks. Are you inventing this to portray me as some sort of radical? All I said was that I understand why they have happened. They did not happen because Palestinians have some irrational hatred of Israelis. They happened because Israel kills children and destroys homes on a daily basis.
@palimpsestransparent arab killings started in the 1920s when the locals decided they didnt want more jewish neighbors. In modern times, their killings accelerated in September 2000 when they didnt like the negotiations of the two-states. Instead of coming back with counter-offers, they responded with the same mantra of all 1967/RoR-or-nothing and went on a warpath
Here we are 10 years later. I still havent seen any counter-proposal from Pali and just insanity from Hamas
@firstonethrough I am amazed at what a distorted history you present. Where do you get such a distorted story from?
First of all, you misrepresent the facts of the 20s and 30s. It was the radical Zionists who started killing arabs who were in their way when they wanted to establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land. So the arabs did not start the conflict. But let's just imagine for a moment they did. Then you still have to account for the fact that Israelis to date have killed many more lives
@palimpsestransparent 1. not true. Arabs fought jewish immigration with riots and pleas to Turks to keep them out. That same feeling is found throughout comments on YT that they have no place in the land. Some like violence against jews and others dont, but the arabs started the violence. I will try to get you sources
2. who kills more lives is not relevant. If 2 gunmen kill 5 civilians, and then the army attacks their location and kills 7, who is at fault?
@firstonethrough 1. I don't agree with your statement that the arabs started the violence, but the youtube comments are too short to go into this.
2. In your example you are right: you are talking about an event where one side kills and the other retaliates and it's no big deal if there is a 10% difference in deaths in the retaliation. But in the real I/P conflict things are different. Israel constantly kills innocent civilians simply to terrorise the population, and kills 20 times more.
@firstonethrough (continued) Then you say "their killings accelerated in September 2000". Yes, they did. Not for the reasons you state, but it is true, they did. But even with this increase in killings, the Israelis were still killing four times more Palestinians than the Palestinians were killing Israelis. So how do you account for that? And how do you account for hundreds of demolished houses belonging to innocent Palestinians vs. zero demolished Israeli houses? And the cases of torture?
2. Arabs seem to think the right "exchange rate" is 1000:1 based on the swap for Gilad Shalit
3. IDF destroys illegal jewish homes all of the time in J&S. They uprooted thousands of people in Sinai and Gaza
all of this to what end? How about accept that they are not getting all 1967/RoR/Jlem and can get a state in 2012. Or keep waiting until they think they can, even if a few more decades
@firstonethrough 1. The reason for the Palestinians starting their second uprising in 2000 was that the untenable situation there was (Isralis killing 20 more Palestinians than Palestinians killking Israelis) reached tipping point due to the provocations of Ariel Sharon. It is well-documented that Sharon wanted to provoke violence in the Palestinians in order to have a perfect excuse to assassinate and torture many more Palestinians. Remember who Sharon was (mass-murderer at Sabra/Shatila).
@palimpsestransparent you are ignoring facts to fit your perception. The head of Israel goes to visit the holiest spot in Judaism so the arab world started slaughtering civilians? The arabs claim provocations for everything like the rebuilding of the Hurva synagogue the other year in the Old City - they scared away any politicians form attending an event and complained that it was building a land on occupied territory. that's NUTS!!
@firstonethrough 2. I'm glad you mention Gilad Shalit, as it is a perfect example of how Israelis consider that a life of a Palestinian is worth less than that of an Israeli. I don't quite understand what you mean with the 1000:1 exchange rate, which I hope you will explain in due course, but I will give you my take on this:
When GS was kidnapped, Israelis treated this with outrage. The irony is that Israel is constantly kidnapping Palestinians and torturing them and then killing them.
@palimpsestransparent you make no sense in ur argument. Why would Israel want to release more murderers? They obviously wanted fewer/none. This is the exchange rate for life on the part of the Palis, not Israelis. 1000 murderers (not all, but many with blood on their hands) compared to someone who was kidnapped while not even in battle. Your argument makes no sense unless ur trying to support mine
@firstonethrough I don't think you understood what I said regarding GS.
I'm saying that Israel constantly kidnaps Palestinians, and this is somehow considered normal. No trial, no charges, just kidnapping and torture, resulting often in death or being locked up forever in secret prisons. My point is that the only time an Israeli is kidnapped, meaning Gilad Shalit, there is suddenly this incredible outrage amongst radical Israelis. Don't you see the double standards?
@firstonethrough 3. Again, look at the numbers. How many legal Palestinian homes demolished vs. how many illegal settler homes demolished. Face it, the Israeli government is protecting the settlers. Even worse: When settlers commit crimes like killing arabs for fun, the IDF looks the other way. This reminds me of Nazi Germany. History repeats itself, only that this time the Israelis have taken on the role of the Nazis. They learnt well.
@palimpsestransparent You cant look at raw numbers but percentages. If the arabs build 10,000 illegal homes and jews build 1000 illegal homes, then dismantling 20% of each means 2000 arab homes and 200 jewish homes. Thats for the immediate timeframe.
Historically, you are correct in the 1948 war that arab homes were destroyed and Israel didnt destroy jewish homes. The jordanians did that.
@firstonethrough You state "you can't look at raw number bu percentages". But that is completely beside the point. The point is 1. the Palestinian homes are LEGAL. 2. The settler homes are all ILLEGAL. 3. There are literally thousands of illegal settler homes that are NOT being demolished and NEVER WILL be demolished, because Israeli policy is to illegally steal more and more land.
@palimpsestransparent your blanket statement is inane. All arab homes are legal but all jewish homes are illegal? what planet are you on? A home is legal if someone wons the land/has papers to build regardless of jew or arab. It is illegal if its on someone else's land/doesnt have proper papers for both jew and arab.
Whether the home ends up in Israel or a new Pali will be the outcome of negotiations.
@firstonethrough Yes, by your own definition ALL settler homes are illegal, as they have been built illegally on Palestinian land that is not currently part of Israel.
Just as Israel has no right to demolish Palestinian homes that are located in someone else's land. The Gaza strip and the WB are not part of Israel, so Israel has no say in whether these Palestinian homes are legal or not, so should treat all Palestininan homes in G, WB, EJ as essentially being LEGAL.
@palimpsestransparent No. Im saying legality relates to PERSONAL property matters. J&S is not Palestine as there is no/hasnt been a Palestine. It was Turk, then Jordan, and now administered by Israel. That should not take away any arabs personal rights to their land so Israel should respect it. But as the current administrator, it is in charge of paperwork. There is no inherent legality to an arab building on vacant land, nor illegality of jews building on vacant land
@firstonethrough Well, at least we are now reaching the crux of the matter. Here is where I see we differ completely. You consider that jews are building on vacant land, since officially there is no Palestinian state, whereas I consider they are building on Palestinian land, even if officially there is not a state. And I consider this self-appointed role of "administrator of the land" part of the problem, as there is a clear conflict of interests.
@palimpsestransparent be clear, Jordan annexed WB and then attacked Israel in 1967 and lost it. One can argue whether Israel attacked Egypt first and ramifications for Sinai+Gaza. If Israel wanted to annex it into Israel, it would be justified in doing so. It does not want to and wants the arabs to have their own state. Its the details that separate the parties
So, no. We disagree on vacant land in J&S. I see your point on conflict of interest, but that is what it is.
@firstonethrough .... And by the way, what you call "vacant land", international law (as well as the great majority of countries in the world) considers to be Occupied Palestinian Territories. So, even if there is no Palestinian state as such, there is land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinian people. Yes, collectively, not on an individual basis. Regardless of individual cases of claims to plots of land, those territories are Palestinian. So any settler activity is illegal.
@palimpsestransparent I completely disagree with a concept that a group of people who never had sovereignty can somehow have this concept of "ownership". If people own farms and houses, they own it and Israel has no right to claim it. Unowned land that was part of Ottoman then Jordan remains unowned. There is no magic dust that somehow makes it special Pali land. Still, you are right that Israel may have a bias for new jewish ownership than arab.
@firstonethrough It's ironic really. You claim that individual people own property, not collectives. Ok, let's accept you view. In this case, can you please explain to me why Palestinian individuals in 1948 owned 96% of the land (I'm talking overall land, including both present-day Israel and occupied territories) and now they live in only 22% of the land and own less than this 22%? I know the answer: Israel stole Palestinian land and houses. It is well-documented.
@palimpsestransparent I do not have statistics of the actual land ownership before Israel- how many people sold their homes, how many people abandoned them, how many homes were bulldozed. No doubt that was a significant percent of each.
In the arab lands where 850,000 jews were evicted, the percentage is about 99% stolen. Many of these people and their descendants now live in Israel
A final settlement must make these people whole in addition to the arabs in new Pali
@firstonethrough My oh my, again trying to use some other unrelated fact to try to whitewash an Israeli crime. I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about 850,000 jews evicted from a vague "arab lands", but it is irrelevant to the issue.
Jewish settlers evicted 750,000 Palestinians from their homes (and stole them) in 1948 for no other reason than to create a Palestinian-free land. It was planned ethnic cleansing, as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe will explain in detail to you.
@palimpsestransparent .... and I repeat what I said before: Palestinians owned 96% of land in Palestine in 1948 and now they live in 22% and Israel does not even allow them to live a normal life in that area, as well as decide that all new buildings are illegal (of course, the Israelis are the ones who issue the permits). The very generous offer the Palestinians have accepted all these years is a two state solution that would mean renouncing to 78% of the original Palestinian territory.
@palimpsestransparent I posted somewhere what the settlement will look like. I did not see ur response but it covered borders (similar to 67); Jlem; refugees and Pali army.
@palimpsestransparent watch I hate Israel - Displacing People. 850,000 jews were evicted from a dozen arab countries. they will get payment for being evicted, same as arabs from Palestine will get compensation for lost homes.
Obviously some of the 750k arabs were evicted, many fled and some sold their lands. It wasnt planned cleansing or the jews would have started the fighting and the 1948 wars. But it was the arabs that started both
@firstonethrough Again, you are simply using an unrelated fact, which does not even relate to Zionists, to somehow justify the murders, rapes, forceful evictions, and property confiscation perpetrated by radical Zionists in 1948 (which by the way was planned, as you can see by reading Ben Gurion's statements).
What you are referring to is eviction of jews from many unrelated lands. No relation whatsoever to Palestinians, Israelis or Zionists. As unrelated as Rwanda massacre.
@palimpsestransparent, sorry, but the "murders, rapes, forceful evictions, and property confiscation" you are referring to are either nonexistant or very minor, compared to just about any other conflict. In particular, I am not awara of a single rape. But I am aware of false reports of rape, reports that were spread for propaganda purposes.
Actually, Israeli army is the only army in human history accused of not raping. That's right, accused.
There are murders going on in the U.S. on daily basis. That doesn't mean that the U.S. as a country should sease to exist.
The "Ben Gurion's statements" you are referring to are not really his statements. They were made up or re-written by propagandists. In particular, when Ben Gurion and other Israeli leaders referred specifically to terrorists, propagandists replaced "terrorists" with "Arabs."
Over the past 10 years, every story of "major Israeli attrocity" has turned out to be a lie.
Al-Dura's murder, Jenin massacre, family on the beach, mother and four children at Beit Hanoun, shelling of the UNRWA school, killing of Mahmood Mashharawi, Gaza blockade - all full or partial lies.
The very necessity to lie like this is proof that there is nothing real to accuse Israel of.
@palimpsestransparent, no, sorry, the fate of Jews - the "Jewish issue" - being oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered, expelled, exterminated in country after country for the last 2000 years - is very relevant here.
Jewish people are people. Human beings. And as human beings, have all the basic rights others take for granted: life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Beginning with the right to life.
2000 years of exile, of being a nation without a country, have proven that this most basic right cannot be guaranteed by living in other people's countries. Therefore, it has to be secured by creating our own.
And if some local population with no national identity and no real difference from those around them is not willing to accept it, picks up weapons and goes on murder sprees (Nebi Musa riots (1920), Jaffa riots (1921), Hebron massacre (1929), Safed massacre (1929),
the Great Arab Revolt (1936-39), Tiberias Massacre (1938), school bus attack (1970), hijacking and blowing up airplanes in Zarqa (1970), Lod Airport Massacre (1972), Munich Olympics massacre (1972), Kiryat Shmona massacre (1974), Ma'alot school massacre (1974), Entebbe hijacking (1976), etc. etc.) then what they deserve is a war. Which is what they get.
When you say Jewish fate is irrelevant, you de-facto say that Jews are not human beings. But you are wrong. We are human beings, and our fate is relevant.
Here is just one of these: Hebron Massacre:
1929 Memorandum presented to the British high commissioner by Hebron's community:
"Rabbis, Meir Kastel, 68 years old, and Tzvi Drabkin, 70 years old, and five other young men were robbed, castrated, tortured and murdered.
"Baker, Noah Immerman was roasted alive on an oven, Rabbi Ya'akov Orlanski HaCohen was found praying they took his brain from his skull and his wife's intestines were crushed.
"Pharmacist Ben-Tzion Gershon, lame, unable to move, who served in Hebron for 40 years, kindly assisting many Arabs, they cut off his nose and fingers, killed him, raped his daughter and murdered her with awful torture. The teacher Dubkinov and Yitzhak Abushdid were strangled with a rope.
@Kurtlane You are confusing the issue on purpose. Leave the Jews alone. The Jews are not responsible for Israeli or Zionist atrocities. You should differentiate between Jews, who are just people, like when I say blacks or Italians, and Zionists, who are a group of people with a racist and supremacist ideology (kicking out the Palestinians from their own land), and Israel, which is an apartheid murderous state. Not all Israelis, but yes those Isralis in power. Boycott Israel!
You are. You are misrepresenting Zionism. It is not "a racist and supremacist ideology (kicking out the Palestinians from their own land)," it is simply the thing I explained: the idea that Jewish people are human beings, with everything that follows.
There is nothing racist or supremacist about it, and it isn't about kicking anyone from their own land.
You sound like that guy in a French play, who spoke prose all his life and never knew it. You say that Jews are just people. Then you too are a Zionist, even if you never knew it.
Sad to see how deeply lies and propaganda have penetrated into you.
If you have the courage to face yourself, I can try to teach you a few things. Very logically, little by little.
@Kurtlane Zionism is indeed a racist and supremacist ideology. The founders of Zionism left no doubt about what their true intentions were. Their aim was to establish an ethnically pure Jewish state in someone else's land and they realised that the only way to do that was to get rid of the native population. Ben Gurion makes this clear in his diaries and letters. Doesn't this ideology of an ethnically pure Jewish state and racial superiority in regards to Palestinians remind you of something?
@palimpsestransparent Zionism is no different than Palis seeking a state of their own. Or the Kurds seeking a state. Or the muslims seeking to separate from India to create Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is simply the term for jews seeking to rule themselves as other people seek to rule themselves.
One can be both pro Zionism and Pro-Pali. People who seek a 2 state solution want both parties to have their autonomy. Each state has/will have minorities living there too.
@firstonethrough You state "Zionism is no different than Palis seeking a state of their own". You either misunderstand reality or you wilfully misrepresent it. Zionism was indeed seeking a state for a group of people, but instead of choosing an empty piece of land, they instead (in truly colonialist fashion) decided to establish it in a densely popluated area full of villages and life. Yes, I'm talking about Palestine. So the option Zionism chose was to expel and kill the native population.
@firstonethrough, yes, Zionism is no different from Kurds seeking a state. But it is different from Muslims separeating from India to create Pakistan and Bangladesh, and particularly from Palis seeking a state.
Kurds are a nation. Pakistanis are not a nation. They separated on religious grounds. Though Pakistanis consist of many nations, and in that way ther is some similarity to Jews.
But Palis are not a nation. Until Israel was created, it was Jews inj the land that were called "Palestinians." And Arabs were simply Arabs. There was no Palestinian Arab identity whatsoever; Arabs didn't even recognize Palestine as geographical area. To them, it was just southern part of Syria.
Here are some quotes from Arab leaders themselves:
"There is no such country as 'Palestine'; 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." - Ahmed Shuqeiri, the first chairman of Palestine Liberation Organization, in a statement to the UN Security Council in 1949
"I don't think there is a Palestinian nation. There`s an Arab nation. I don't think there`s a Palestinian nation. That's a colonial invention. Since when were there Palestinians? I think there's only an Arab nation. Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the southern part of Greater Syria." - Azmi Bishara, former Israeli Arab Knesset member, in an interview with Yaron London)
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity ... The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity." - Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO. From Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977
Moreover, Arabs to this day don't have national identity. Not even Arab identity. All they have is religion (deen), clan (hamoolah) and place attachment (balad, which can mean a geographical area, a country, or a village).
The rest is pure propaganda. People who have no national identity can call themselves anything they want if it benefits them. And they do.
If Ben Gurion were to decide in 1948 to call the new Jewish country "Palestine," then those who today call themselves "Palestinians" would call themselves "native Israelis" and demand Jews to get out of their Israel.
Wouldn't that be interesting.
So yes, Zionism is just like Kurds seeking a state. Kurds are a nation. Palis are not, nor are they seeking a state. They are seeking only destruction of Israel and extermination of its 6 million Jews.
@palimpsestransparent, you are now showing your ignorance. Not only there is nothing about "ethnically pure" state in "The Jewish State," the case is precisely the opposite.
You haven't read it, have you.
"Someone else's land?" This is false in so many ways, one doesn't know where to begin. Not only wasn't it "someone else's land," it still isn't. And I'm not even referring to Jews being there since 3300 years ago continuously to this day.
This land was so empty in 1860s, and both Jews and Arabs lived there, and both Jews and Arabs started coming in increasing numbers, beginning in about 1833, when new workshops in Jerusalem were established by Moses Montefiore, and Jewish immigrants and Jewish money created all the opportunities in the land, which attracted Arabs from all around.
So what is it that makes Arabs owners and Jews - occupiers? The fact that Arabs had power? But they didn't even have that. Turks had power, and later - British.
Nor was anyone expelled. The Arabs who didn't run away on their own became citizens of Israel: the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated Arabs in the region. And those who did run away ran on their own, usually before they even saw a single Jew.
Many were convinced by Arab propaganda, broadcasting lies about rapes and mass slaughter of civilians. Others just ran. Why? Because they measured by their own standards: they expected Jews to do to them what they would've done to Jews if they had won - a total slaughter.
But they were wrong.
If creation of a purely ethnic state were the idea of Ben Gurion, why didn't he proceed with it? Why were Arabs who stayed not expelled? Why did they become full citizens?
In place after place on this planet, invading army massacred local people. Ihn Tibet alone, over 1 million were killed. Hardly anyone noticed. But in Israel it didn't happen, so millions and millions are lying that it did.
The ideology you describe reminds me of many things. What it is not is Zionism.
@Kurtlane Yes, someone else's land. I call villages full of people who own the plots of land and villages where they live "someone's land". It was not officially a "nation-state", if that is what you are referring to. But it was the land belonging to the Palestinians.
The Great Myth of Jews continually living on Palestinian land is just part of Israeli school indoctrination. Don't fall for it. There was about max. 4% Jewish population in 1851, and less beofre that. Read the facts.
@palimpsestransparent and jews continued to move there. The world underwent tremendous amount of immigration from 1870-1930. Palestine saw a lot of arabs and jews moving there. Ottoman powers let them come. After WW1, Brits put more restrictions on immigration of jews and let more arabs come in. The few hundred thousand arabs in Pali in 1851 did not own 100% of the land. You suggest that only people from 160 years ago a rightful owners. Untrue and silly
@firstonethrough The people who lived there were the owners of their respective plots of land. It might have not been 100% of the land, but it certainly most of it. The rightful owners of a land are the ones who have been living continually for generations. In this case the Palestinian arabs. The amount of Jews living there was insiginficant. The Jews that started arriving after that were exactly the ones with Zionist ideology and a colonialist plan of taking over the land. Which they did.
@palimpsestransparent, how do you know the villagers didn't obtain that land by throwing out previous owners (maybe Jews)? How do you know they didn't sell the land, and then stayed on it? (Or else where did all the JNF money go?) Some were paid twice, some - 3 times. How do you know they didn't move in? (They move in all the time, and chase away Jews, today, in little Israel, never mind Judea and Samaria. I can give you details.)
The descendants of those murderers who did all that in Hebron still owe the Jewish property they inherited. And there were other massacres beside Hebron.
If you really want to know these things, you have to go to Israel and dig into old documents. I bet you haven't done that.
Jews did continually live in that land. And there is no justification at all for calling it "Palestinian" - this is one of those word tricks that "create facts on the ground." 4% or whatever - it's still a fact, not a myth. "Occupation" is a myth.
@Kurtlane You state "you have to go to Israel and dig into old documents". Yes, as if in the age of electronic documents and internet I have to physically be in Israel and "dig" into "old" documents. Please.
Talking about massacres, why don't you mention the brutal massacres by the Jewish terrorist organisation Irgun and Stern. They are in fact the founders of modern terrorism. So much talk about the evils of terrorism when it turns out the Zionists were the original terrorists.
@palimpsestransparent Dosome of the simple research then. Go to wikipedia if you like. You will see that these groups like Irgun came about AFTER the slaughter in Hebron 1929 that Kurtlane wrote about above.
You seem to echo the hatred of generations ago still unhappy with new neighbors. Jews have always lived in Israel and moved there before Zionism, during Ottoman, during British rule and current Israel. Make peace with your neighbors and stop citing 1851!
There is still plenty of stuff that's not on the internet. On the internet, on the other hand, there are many many things that are false.
If internet is all you rely on, I'm not surprized you got so many things wrong.
Irgun and Lehi (Stern) were relatively small organizations, (together much smaller than Hagana,) which were dissolved in 1948. The very fact that you have to go that far back to name them speaks for peacefulness of Israel.
All major "Palestinian" orgtanizations: Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, etc - are terrorist. Today.
Irgun and Lehi were formed in response to Arab violence, such as in Hebron, and earlier. Arab violence was always there. In 1840, long before Zionism, Damascus Blood LIbel led to murder of 4 Jews, severe mutilation of 13, imprisonment of 63 children, etc. After that, pogroms spread throughout the area, from Istanbul to Casablanca.
Somehow all the violence done to Jews never registers with you. Only violence against Arabs matters. This is your problem. Though you say otherwise, you do not really see us Jews as human beings.
@Kurtlane You misconstrue what I said. I do know that Irgun, Stern and Hagana are from the British Mandate period until 1948. What I was pointing to is the fact that Israel keeps talking about the evils of terrorism, when in fact it was the one who actually started with terrorism in that region. And no, I do not need to go that far back to give you examples of Israeli state terrorism. I could give you a long list, but Gaza 2009 will suffice.
@palimpsestransparent, I told you, Israel, or Irgun, or Lehi, didn't start terrorism in the region. Even Mohammed didn't start it. It was always there. There were always roaming bands of Bedouins ready to rob, kidnap or kill anyone. Until 19th century, few dared to live outcide city walls. Other Arabs were not that peaceful either.
As for modern terrorism, it too started with Arabs, trained by British in WWI. Before Irgun or Lehi.
When you state things like this (timing upside down or other obvious mistakes) once, it could be an error or lack of knowledge. But when you state them again, everyone can see that you are a propagandist.
@Kurtlane Regarding "timing upside down", I am not changing the timing. I'm simply stating the fact that the Irgun and Stern started modern-style terrorism in that region. You should look up the definition of terrorism, as I think you are confusing terrorism with other types of crimes.
@Kurtlane Your portrayal of the region is the worst example of colonialist attitudes to arabs. This portrayal of the arabs as evil people in bands ready to rob, kidnap or kill is prejudiced in the extreme. Just as prejudiced as the German imagery of Jews during the 1930s. I assume you are a Jew yourself, so just tell me how can you indulge in this negative portrayal of a group of people when Jews have been themselves victims of negative stereotyping?
@Kurtlane And regarding your comments on the internet. I do not get all my sources from the internet, many I get from respected and acknowledged books by internationally respected and peer-reviewed scholars. The only things I get from the internet are things that are also very trustworthy, such as Israeli organisation B'Tselem, who documents the facts on the ground. Do you even know the figures? Do you know that Israel murdered 1380 civilians of which 700 unarmed, and 300 innocent children?
@palimpsestransparent, right, respected and acknowledged. Like Ilan Pappe or B'Tselem.
I've seen the lecture by B'tselem's Anat Biletzki (and Jeff Halper of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions) at MIT. And heard her lying, misinforming, deliberate omission of crucial information and making illogical conclusions. Plus her hatred for Israel was pretty obvious,
So if I saw top B'tselem person lie extensively in one lecture, why should I trust her or her organization at all?
These figures are about the recent Gaza war, arent they? Sure enough, they are lies."Civilians," "unarmed civilians" - sure, if you consider Hamas civilians. THe number of children killed is likewise a lie.
@Kurtlane Regarding the figures during what you term the "Gaza war" and which I call the "invasion of Gaza", it astounds me that you can be so deeply ideologically biased as to question basic figures which are agreed upon by everyone who was on the ground. Even the IDF agree to at least 100 out of the widely agreed consensus of over 300 children. And your branding all citizens "hamas" is not even worth commenting on. This is becoming quite silly.
@Kurtlane Regarding your disdain for respected and internationally-acknowledged B'Tselem, again it seems the whole world is wrong, and only you in the audience had the superpowers to see that a spokesperson from B'Tselem was lying. I'm sure nobody else considered she was lying, only you. This is truly a paranoid world you live in, full of evil organisations, evil arabs, uncomprehending people, all out to get you. Poor victim.
People I respect include Brigitte Gabriel, Steven Emerson, Melanie Philips, Caroline Glick, Emanuele Ottolenghi, Fiamma Nirenstein, Philippe Karsenty, Barry Rubin, Anne Bayefsky, Allen West, Charles Krauthammer, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye'Or, Martin Kramer, Richard Landes, Andrew Bostom, Bruce Bawer, Efraim Karsh, Khaled Abu Toameh, Melanie Phillips, Nonie Darwish, Itamar Marcus,
If anything, the problem is with you. Perhaps you don't hear other voices and assume they don't exist. But they do exist. There are still honest people in the world.
My greates uthority, ultimately, is my own experience. I've been to Israel. Twice. Including the territories. Walked the streets, rode busses and taxis. I have lots of friends and relatives there, I'm in contact with them.
So who am I to trust: your honest words or my own lying eyes and ears? (sarcasm)
@Kurtlane The pragmatic approach of talking to people you know there and visiting sounds better than it really is. In reality, if you speak only to a certain type of Israeli, which is most of them, you will not get the real picture. Israelis, except a few who have made an extra effort, live in a bubble protected by a narrative that is repeated in their media, in their schools, etc. And they end up believing this narrative, which is quite removed from reality in regards to the Palestinians.
@palimpsestransparent, yes, unfiortunately, many if not most Israelis live in a bubble that as long as they treat Arabs nicely, bend over to them, give them yet another special favor, etc. etc., Arabs will at some point stop hating and killing them.
"If we are good to others, others will be good to us."
It's an ancient Jewish bubble.
The reality is just the opposite. It is not the cycle of violence, it's the cycle of shadow,.
Since the start of the 2nd intifada, all the murders of Jews, murders of Palestinian Arabs by other Palestinian Arabs, democratic elections of Hamas, etc. have made a crack in that bubble. However, the crack is still small and the bubble is still there.
But don't tell me that you, in academia outside Israel, have better idea about things there than they do. You don't, and being in academia is a big minus.
@Kurtlane Regarding your list of names, I have to admit I do not know most of the people you mention. I do not know how well-known they are or how respected academically they are. When I have some time I can have a look. But at the same time you should read Ilan Pappe and others with an open mind. Even Benny Morris, who is pro-Israeli, admits that the arabs were expelled forecfully, as well as there having been massacres during the expulsion. These are recent findings from 1980s.
@palimpsestransparent, for starters, google and read "Benny Morris and the Reign of Error" by Efraim Karsh.
I tried to read Benny Morris -- the older Benny Morris (he too was mugged by reality and became more reasonable, though not enough even now.) I found it unbearable. Such hatred, such vicious joy at lambasting. No academic coolness at all.Even when looking just for information, I found it very very hard to go through this gloating hatred.
As for Ilan Pappe - that's as real as Alice in Wonderland. But a lot less fun.
Some of the people in my list are academics: Ephraim Karsh, Daniel Pipes, Martin Kramer are academic maverics, trying to put some honesty into the Middle Eastern Studies.
Others are not academics at all. For example, Nonie Darwish is just a middle-aged woman with nothing academic.
But she was born in Gaza, her father was an Egyptian general who died fighting Israel, she saw Israeli soldiers come into her house, she experienced a lot of things over there and in America, and when she went back to Gaza for a visit around 2000. She knows a lot and has a lot to tell.
I've been to universities many times, and as a result I have more respect for taxi drivers than for academics. Especially in anything related to politics. Particularly Middle Eastern politics. It's a disaster.
@Kurtlane This is again a rhetorical device you are using, which you seem fond of using. Imagine a Nazi guard about to execute Jews in Auschwitz saying "well, how do you know these Jews didn't do something bad during their lifetime?". There is no justification whatsoever for forcefully expelling, occupying and destroying villages of the people that had been living there for generations. No Wonderful Utopian Plan To Make the Jews Safe Forever can ever justify such colonisalist barbarism.
"Out of the ashes of 2 millennia of statelessness and persecution, the Jewish people rose up and restored their homeland. Against all odds, they created modern Israel with the international community's endorsement. They did not restore their land to take revenge on their enemies. They sought life and hope, and the right to live as a democratic nation at peace with its neighbors. The world should be celebrating this nation, not singling it out for condemnation.
@Kurtlane You state "there was no forceful expulsion". Yes, you can choose to ignore the respected work of Israeli historians and imagine there was no forceful expulsion. But if one day you choose to read real scholarly work about this dark chapter in history, you will find in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by the great Israeli historian Ilan Pappe an enlightening explanation based on British declassified material and extensive research. Yes, 750,000 Palestinians expelled, thousands killed.
@Kurtlane Yes, sarcasm to confuse Jews, Israelis and Zionists, three completely different concepts.
It is common knowledge that the only tactic left to those who do not have the truth on their side is to slander and discredit those who simply expose the facts, maybe in the hope that others will dismiss their findings off-hand. I have noticed this attitude with those Israelis who defend Israeli policies, like yourself. Do you really believe Pappe's work is not factual? I'm lost for words.
@palimpsestransparent, yes, it is sarcastic to separate Jews from Israelis from Zionists in a typical "divide ande rule" game.
Tell me please, if a nation is in utter dump, when it keeps going through endless rapes, expulsions, massacres, etc., and there doesn't seem to be any hope of it changing, wouldn't it be natural that this nation would be looking for a solution to such predicament?
@Kurtlane No, I have no wish to divide and conquer. The distinction is necessary because they are completely different concepts. There are many Jews who not only are not zionist but actually consider themselves anti-zionist. And Israelis are simply the citizens of Israel. Let me make it clear: a jew is someone who feels he belongs to a judeic culture and tradition, Zionism is an ideology (a nasty one at that), and Israel is a state. Necessary distinctions.
Just as at that time, Jewish traitors are wanted and searched for: then to renounce Judaism and be used in attacking their relatives and former community in "religious debates," today to renounce Zionism and be used in attacking the Jews and the state of Israel.
Both then and today, the outcome of the "debates" is clear from the start: "Jews are guilty!" And to be expelled, in 1492 from Spain, today from Israel.
Only, today no convertion out of Judaism is needed. Today, traitors are more valuable as Jews.
@Kurtlane "Jews who are traitors", "time of inquisition". You are too steeped in extremist ideology to maintain any rational discourse. You really do believe you are a group of people who think alike, and anyone who thinks differently or who disagrees with Israel's policies is a "traitor". This is what I mean by supremacist ideology. You and other Zionist extremists have taken a dangerous path of self-destruction, just as the Nazis with their Aryan ideology did.
@Kurtlane And in reply to your plea which begins "if a nation is in utter dump...", you seem to believe the myth of the Jewish People as a common group of people who have lived a common history. This is not true. You cannot speak in the name of Jews. Every community of Jews have their own story which are unrelated to other stories. Zionism does believe in this dangerous myth of the Jewish People, which is as dangerous as the myth of the Arian People.
@palimpsestransparent, read Ephraim Karsh and Martin Kramer. Particularly Martin Kramer's "Ivory Towers on Sand: The Failure of Middle Eastern Studies in America." See what they have to say about Ilan Pappe and his ilk.
Pappe is a member of Hadash (Israeli Communist party) and former candidate in the 1996 Knesset elections on the Communist party ticket.
Ilan Pappe spread the rumor accusing Jewish militia of killing more than 200 Palestinians in May 1948 in Tantura, south of Haifa. This rumor was the basis for Pappe's protege Teddy Katz's Jan. 2000 master's degree thesis.
When Haifa university refused to give the degree, Pappe called for boycott of his own university.
Nevertheless, in Nov. 2001 Teddy Katz was forced to apologize for making the false accusations following a trial in the Tel Aviv District Court.
In 2002, Ilan Pappe signed a petition that charged Israel with plotting the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians under cover of the approaching war in Iraq. Now, 10 years, later, where is the ethnic cleansing?
It is funny that you claim that Ilan Pappe tells the truth, when Pappe himself said, ""[T]here is no such thing as truth, only a collection of narratives."
@Kurtlane Well, regarding Tantura, it so happens that I know quite well about this story, as I learnt of it some time ago, so your twisted version of the facts will not dupe me. The thesis was not based on a rumour, it was based on facts. But note how undemocratic Israel is: The moment the soldiers named in the theses found out about the thesis, they threatened with trial and the scared student signed a paper prepared by the soldiers' lawyers stating it was made up. Which it was not.
@Kurtlane And continuing further with Tantura, I am trying to understand whether you actually believe that Pappe "spread a rumour", which is so unlike his character and so preposterous an idea to anyone who knows him, meaning yourself duped by pro-Zionist propaganda. Or if rather you are yourself twisting the facts to portray Pappe in a negative light, which is the mechanism of discrediting those that expose true facts. Are you the slanderer or are you repeating words prepared by slanderers?
"Soldiers named in the thesis lied," "Tel Aviv District Court lied," "Israel is not a democracy if it doesn't confirm whatever Pappe says," "spreading rumors in not in Pappe's character."
Right, everybody lies, except Pappe, B'tselem and you. And you call others paranoid? What about yourself?
Could there possibly be a chance that the soldiers read the thesis and were appauled by lies in it, and that's why they sued, and that the court found the truth and made a corresponding decision?
You should also know that I was called "Satan's seed" when I was 5 years old. After that, you can call me any name you want, I don't care.
@Kurtlane Regarding your rhetorical question on hypotheses that the soldiers were appalled by lies, I think you are being naive. The soldiers used their muscle to silence the uncovering of uncomfortable facts. In any case, the facts of massacres taking place during 1948-1949 is so well-documented that I need not expand on it here. Please read about it.
@Kurtlane Regarding your "soldiers named in the theses lied" etc, you are again misrepresenting what I said. I tried to summarise the story how it really happened. The soldiers did not lie. They threatened the student. The trial did not lie, as there was no trial. There was an out-of-court settlement because the student got scared and signed a paper prepared by the lawyers. So they made the student lie by making him sign a paper stating that the facts were not true, when they were. Simple.
@palimpsestransparent, could it be that the student was really scared not by the soldiers beating him up, but by court finding there is no evidence there?
And how do you know the soldiers threatened the student? From the student himself? From Ilan Pappe? I wouldn't trust anything they said. Maybe they made it up.
@Kurtlane Regarding Pappe being a member of the Hadash, does this piece of information discredit him in your eyes? Are you a McCarthyist witch-hunter? I am now reading about the Hadash and it seems they are simply a non-Zionist and non-nationalist party that would like Israel to be a mix of Jews and non-Jews with equal rights. Their program sounds democratic and just. I don't see the problems you see. You haven't discredited him in any way in my eyes. Quite the contrary.
@palimpsestransparent, I am from the Soviet Union. I've experienced Communism and communists on my own skin.
I've also met plenty of Communists and close-by leftists here in the U.S. They're not that different form Soviet ones, and, given an opportunity, would make another Soviet Union here. Israeli communists are also very similar.
Being a Communist doesn't completely discredit someone in my eyes. A Communist can still be honest, but only as an exception. Read the last part of Communist Manifesto if you care. It calls for lying and dishonesty.
@Kurtlane If you come from the Soviet Union then of course you will have a negative image of what communism is, as the type of communism that has been implemented around the world has been truly awful and should never be repeated. But having said that, you should not confuse this with a political party that calls itself communist in a more French tradition or meaning of the term. It is quite different. Hadash in this case is what I would call a "good" communist party.
@palimpsestransparent, sorry, but the French communist party did a whole load of really awful things.
No, sorry, I don't buy "good Communist party" theory. They are good when it benefits them, but if they come to power, the mask is off, and it's the same ugly "bad Communist."
Even someone like George Galloway, who is just a sympathizer, is plenty evil.
@palimpsestransparent, even beyond Communism, the overall leftist-liberal (I'm taking very broad category) ideology or approach is utterly upside-down. Everything that should be supported is diminished, and everything that should be diminished is supported.
There is a general, ill-defined but very deep-rooted sense that democratic foundations are fundamentally flawed.
Even if leftists-liberals call themselves "democrats" and say they are all for "democracy," in essence they are not, it's a rhetorical gimmick even if they convince themselves of it.
And the standard reply to any criticism from the right is "You are racist" or "you are fascist" or "you are a Nazi." While criticism from the left is listened to politely and taken into account. Thus the whole thing keeps moving left.
The situation around Israel is a perfect illustration. In the Middle East/North Africa region, Israel is one beacon of light. Everything else is a nightmare.
True, Turkey was a democracy. But no longer. True, Lebanon was a democracy. But we know what happened to it.
And it is precisely Israel that gets blamed. Right now, Syrian army is massacring its own people. And here it's all about how evil Israel is.
@Kurtlane You state "Today, Israeli Arabs are the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated Arabs in the Middle East". Are you referring to the handful of arabs living as second-class citizens in Israel? I guess that's what you are referring to, since the rest of the Palestinians, those on the West Bank and Gaza Strip are malnourished, their schools and universities are repeatedly destroyed, so no education there. Apart, of course, from constant killings and torture. It's all documented.
@firstonethrough My plan for Israel today you ask. Quite simple. Go back to the June 1967 borders. Make Jerusalem an international city or split Jerusalem in two. Dismantle all settlements located on what is the Palestinian territory according to June 1967 borders, which means most of the settlements. Agree on minor border tweaks only by full consensus by both parties. And keep an eye on Israeli brutality, maybe some international force, as they are a dangerous lot.
@palimpsestransparent, right. And then be shelled by thousands of rockets from all directions, plus all sorts of other weapons.
One curious thing I learned in Israel: I was standing next to the Knesset (Parliament) building, and the entrance there was from the side. It looked a bit odd.
The tour guide explained that when it was built, the border with Jordan was so close that anyone from beyond the border could take a rifle and kill any member of parliament as he was coming in. Which is what made them change the location of the entrance.
@Kurtlane You say "shelled by thousands of rockets from all directions, plus all sorts of other weapons". Well, it just so happens that it is Israel the one with weapons of "all sorts". And Israelis killed by rockets amount to approx. 1 PER YEAR. You seem to portray Palestinians as some crazed people who kill because of hatred, and in this way you depoliticize reality. They throw rockets only in retaliation from Israeli attacks and policies. You seem to be completely unaware of Israeli crimes.
@firstonethrough It's interesting. Any solution that allows for a viable Palestinian state, meaning that a Palestinian citizen can move from one place to another in their own country without Israeli controls, is a good type of solution. Regarding settlements, I think the idea of integrating the smaller ones within the Palestinian state may be ok (provided all agree), but at the same time unrealistic, as settlers are the most radical Israelis there are. Very racist and violent.
@palimpsestransparent This solution will upset many ppl and it will not be easy. Much harder then pullout from Sinai and Gaza. But it will happen if everything else gets settled. It wont happen piecemeal - first borders; then right or return; then water; etc. As Govt will never get it approved or country to agree otherwise.
First step is a single Pali govt that can deliver. I truly believe that all these talks now r 4 show and worthless. Then Isr govt needs to lay it out
Is Quoting the Talmud Anti-Semitic?
VitaVeda 1 week ago
Even for Zio/Hasbara, this is really a half-ass dialog of half-truths.
waterspindle 3 weeks ago
#1 terrorist in the world are Zionist Jews ! The USA is controlled by Israel thats why America is killing people all over the planet for Israel.
VitaVeda 3 weeks ago
@VitaVeda Either state a countering fact or prove any of the researched facts here are untrue (all of them have been researched and are factual). Comments of pure hatred without anything constructive are not welcome
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@VitaVeda, Here is a quote for you:
"The Jews have made America what it is today: a nation ... forced into helping the Jews to achieve world domination!"
Same thing you're saying, no?
Who said that? Julius Streicher, editor of Der Sturmer, one of the main Nazi propagandists.
Streicher was found guilty of crimes against humanity and hanged in Nuremberg.
And you are repeating him.
Shame.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
This video created by Zionists: most of those "facts" just not true ! They brain wash you people. Go to find out the truth about who was behind all of those bloody wars and revolutions !
VitaVeda 3 weeks ago
@VitaVeda Please go look up all of the statistics in this video. You will see they are true. It is perhaps too shocking for people so stuck in conspiracy theory to confront hard facts. Look them all up yourself. People have unfortunately been at war for ages. There is a lunatic fringe that blames a small group of people of plotting all of these wars. You seem to be among them.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
Yes, I know statistics created by Zionists, thank you ! Most of it just not true !
VitaVeda 3 weeks ago
@VitaVeda actually, math was created by Egyptians and some great improvements by the Greeks. But thank you for giving Zionists credit for statistics.
This videos is about the sad truth that wars have been going on for a long time. No one group is responsible for all of these fights. It is a problem within all of us but we can be the cure too
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
For anyone interested in seeing the illegal way Isreal fights wars, I will refer you to the B'Tselem information centre:
w w w (DOT) btselem (DOT) org/gaza_strip/cast_lead_cases_refrred_to_jag
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent There has never been -nor will there ever be -a shortage of jews or Israelis critical of their own actions. Its a society infused with a challenge of the statusquo, and being self critical to improve upon itself. It is part of what makes it a leader in the field of science and medicine.
It will continue to try to "humanely" fight wars. Compare to blind drone attacks; Syria torture; bombings in Nigeria, Iraq, threats to wipeout a country like Iran, etc.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough Please look up the facts. Israel never attempts to fight "humanely". On the contrary: It is well-documented that the IDF forces daily assassinate, torture, humiliate, maim innocent Palestinian civilians, as well as attack civilian areas blindly with highly-destructive weapons, some of them illegal. Their rules for engagement in the Gaza invasion were simply "there are no rules of engagement. Do whatever you want to whomever you want". And that's what they did. Worse than Nazis.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent I openly acknowledge the facts - as I said, jews and Israelis always seek to review behavior - quite counter to other organizations. Note how Israel was berated for accidentally killing 9 people in one operation and the UN cant do anything about Syria that kills an average of 15 people EVERY DAY for 15 years.
Also review "Jenin Massacre" where IDF went door-to-door to minimize civilian casualties - at its own peril. The world condemned them still.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough You are mentioning an accidental killing of 9 people, I am mentioning wilful killing of hundreds of innocent civilians. You mention an operation where the IDF went door-to-door to minimize casualties. I can mention hundreds of cases, inlcuding Gaza 2009, where the IDF wilfully maximized civilian casualties. Israeli policy is aimed at killing civilians and uses the IDF to do so.
Luckily, ex-IDF soldiers are now starting to speak out:
w w w DOT youtube DOT com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent You neglect to mention that 10,000 rockets aimed at civilians. The slaughter of babies in their beds. The bombing of people having a seder dinner. The bombing of mothers and kids having pizza. The bombing of teenagers dancing at a disco... Thousands of unarmed civilians going about their daily lives being slaughtered. Vs. IDF seeking out killers and bombers who accidentally kill civs too.
And compare the casualty figures to Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan...
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough By making a list, someone with less knowledge of the facts might be fooled into thinking that both sides have committed an approximately equal amount of atrocities, which is not the case at all. Just to give you an example, you mention 10,000 rockets, which sounds scary, but in actual fact, the civilians killed by Hassam primitive rockets amount to 1 person per YEAR over the past 10 years, so please give the full figures, not selectively what whitewashes Israeli crimes.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent Those are 10,000 rockets sent at civilian targets after Israel left Gaza. That compares to the IDF launching a defensive war to stop the rocket fire.
You're right. There is no comparison.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough That's completely untrue. Please provide your sources of reference regarding your claim that 10,000 rockets were fired after Israel left Gaza in 2009.
Let me give you the official statistics from the Israeli Security Agency:
2009 - 569 rockets launched
2010 - 150 rockets launched
Where do you see 10,000 rockets? In your cartoon world again?
And my statistics of approx. 1 death per year due to rocket attacks still holds true. Compare this to hundreds killed by Israeli bombs.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent most importantly, you finally acknowledge unprovoked assault on civilians time and again
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough What do you mean by "you finally acknowledge unprovoked assault"? I did no such thing. The rocket attacks and suicide bombings only started in 2001 after years during which the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths was 20 to 1.
I firmly believe that the launching of home-made rockets aimed randomly at Israel is a direct consequence of Israeli assassination, torture and humiliation of innocent Palestinians.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough ... and by the way, you still have not provided me with the source from where you got your 10,000 rockets launched after 2009 as opposed to the official statistics of 700. Or did you simply invent that statistic and are now diverting the conversation just like the teddy bears do in your cartoons?
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent I shall.
But its irrelevant if you defend the use of these attacks and suicide bombings. It means you are part of the problem that will never agree to live in peace alongside Israel. You will never be happy
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough When did I ever defend these rocket attacks? I have never in my life defended attacking civilians with rockets or killing civilians via suicide-bomb attacks. Are you inventing this to portray me as some sort of radical? All I said was that I understand why they have happened. They did not happen because Palestinians have some irrational hatred of Israelis. They happened because Israel kills children and destroys homes on a daily basis.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent arab killings started in the 1920s when the locals decided they didnt want more jewish neighbors. In modern times, their killings accelerated in September 2000 when they didnt like the negotiations of the two-states. Instead of coming back with counter-offers, they responded with the same mantra of all 1967/RoR-or-nothing and went on a warpath
Here we are 10 years later. I still havent seen any counter-proposal from Pali and just insanity from Hamas
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough I am amazed at what a distorted history you present. Where do you get such a distorted story from?
First of all, you misrepresent the facts of the 20s and 30s. It was the radical Zionists who started killing arabs who were in their way when they wanted to establish a Jewish state on Palestinian land. So the arabs did not start the conflict. But let's just imagine for a moment they did. Then you still have to account for the fact that Israelis to date have killed many more lives
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent 1. not true. Arabs fought jewish immigration with riots and pleas to Turks to keep them out. That same feeling is found throughout comments on YT that they have no place in the land. Some like violence against jews and others dont, but the arabs started the violence. I will try to get you sources
2. who kills more lives is not relevant. If 2 gunmen kill 5 civilians, and then the army attacks their location and kills 7, who is at fault?
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough 1. I don't agree with your statement that the arabs started the violence, but the youtube comments are too short to go into this.
2. In your example you are right: you are talking about an event where one side kills and the other retaliates and it's no big deal if there is a 10% difference in deaths in the retaliation. But in the real I/P conflict things are different. Israel constantly kills innocent civilians simply to terrorise the population, and kills 20 times more.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough (continued) Then you say "their killings accelerated in September 2000". Yes, they did. Not for the reasons you state, but it is true, they did. But even with this increase in killings, the Israelis were still killing four times more Palestinians than the Palestinians were killing Israelis. So how do you account for that? And how do you account for hundreds of demolished houses belonging to innocent Palestinians vs. zero demolished Israeli houses? And the cases of torture?
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent 1. so what is reason for arabs started killing in 2000?
2. Arabs seem to think the right "exchange rate" is 1000:1 based on the swap for Gilad Shalit
3. IDF destroys illegal jewish homes all of the time in J&S. They uprooted thousands of people in Sinai and Gaza
all of this to what end? How about accept that they are not getting all 1967/RoR/Jlem and can get a state in 2012. Or keep waiting until they think they can, even if a few more decades
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough 1. The reason for the Palestinians starting their second uprising in 2000 was that the untenable situation there was (Isralis killing 20 more Palestinians than Palestinians killking Israelis) reached tipping point due to the provocations of Ariel Sharon. It is well-documented that Sharon wanted to provoke violence in the Palestinians in order to have a perfect excuse to assassinate and torture many more Palestinians. Remember who Sharon was (mass-murderer at Sabra/Shatila).
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent you are ignoring facts to fit your perception. The head of Israel goes to visit the holiest spot in Judaism so the arab world started slaughtering civilians? The arabs claim provocations for everything like the rebuilding of the Hurva synagogue the other year in the Old City - they scared away any politicians form attending an event and complained that it was building a land on occupied territory. that's NUTS!!
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough 2. I'm glad you mention Gilad Shalit, as it is a perfect example of how Israelis consider that a life of a Palestinian is worth less than that of an Israeli. I don't quite understand what you mean with the 1000:1 exchange rate, which I hope you will explain in due course, but I will give you my take on this:
When GS was kidnapped, Israelis treated this with outrage. The irony is that Israel is constantly kidnapping Palestinians and torturing them and then killing them.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent you make no sense in ur argument. Why would Israel want to release more murderers? They obviously wanted fewer/none. This is the exchange rate for life on the part of the Palis, not Israelis. 1000 murderers (not all, but many with blood on their hands) compared to someone who was kidnapped while not even in battle. Your argument makes no sense unless ur trying to support mine
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough I don't think you understood what I said regarding GS.
I'm saying that Israel constantly kidnaps Palestinians, and this is somehow considered normal. No trial, no charges, just kidnapping and torture, resulting often in death or being locked up forever in secret prisons. My point is that the only time an Israeli is kidnapped, meaning Gilad Shalit, there is suddenly this incredible outrage amongst radical Israelis. Don't you see the double standards?
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent 1. you make it sound like Israel is kidnapping a random person vs a militant
2. you are still wrong on the 1000:1 being an arab "exchange rate", not Israeli
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough 3. Again, look at the numbers. How many legal Palestinian homes demolished vs. how many illegal settler homes demolished. Face it, the Israeli government is protecting the settlers. Even worse: When settlers commit crimes like killing arabs for fun, the IDF looks the other way. This reminds me of Nazi Germany. History repeats itself, only that this time the Israelis have taken on the role of the Nazis. They learnt well.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent You cant look at raw numbers but percentages. If the arabs build 10,000 illegal homes and jews build 1000 illegal homes, then dismantling 20% of each means 2000 arab homes and 200 jewish homes. Thats for the immediate timeframe.
Historically, you are correct in the 1948 war that arab homes were destroyed and Israel didnt destroy jewish homes. The jordanians did that.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough You state "you can't look at raw number bu percentages". But that is completely beside the point. The point is 1. the Palestinian homes are LEGAL. 2. The settler homes are all ILLEGAL. 3. There are literally thousands of illegal settler homes that are NOT being demolished and NEVER WILL be demolished, because Israeli policy is to illegally steal more and more land.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent your blanket statement is inane. All arab homes are legal but all jewish homes are illegal? what planet are you on? A home is legal if someone wons the land/has papers to build regardless of jew or arab. It is illegal if its on someone else's land/doesnt have proper papers for both jew and arab.
Whether the home ends up in Israel or a new Pali will be the outcome of negotiations.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough Yes, by your own definition ALL settler homes are illegal, as they have been built illegally on Palestinian land that is not currently part of Israel.
Just as Israel has no right to demolish Palestinian homes that are located in someone else's land. The Gaza strip and the WB are not part of Israel, so Israel has no say in whether these Palestinian homes are legal or not, so should treat all Palestininan homes in G, WB, EJ as essentially being LEGAL.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent No. Im saying legality relates to PERSONAL property matters. J&S is not Palestine as there is no/hasnt been a Palestine. It was Turk, then Jordan, and now administered by Israel. That should not take away any arabs personal rights to their land so Israel should respect it. But as the current administrator, it is in charge of paperwork. There is no inherent legality to an arab building on vacant land, nor illegality of jews building on vacant land
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough Well, at least we are now reaching the crux of the matter. Here is where I see we differ completely. You consider that jews are building on vacant land, since officially there is no Palestinian state, whereas I consider they are building on Palestinian land, even if officially there is not a state. And I consider this self-appointed role of "administrator of the land" part of the problem, as there is a clear conflict of interests.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent be clear, Jordan annexed WB and then attacked Israel in 1967 and lost it. One can argue whether Israel attacked Egypt first and ramifications for Sinai+Gaza. If Israel wanted to annex it into Israel, it would be justified in doing so. It does not want to and wants the arabs to have their own state. Its the details that separate the parties
So, no. We disagree on vacant land in J&S. I see your point on conflict of interest, but that is what it is.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough .... And by the way, what you call "vacant land", international law (as well as the great majority of countries in the world) considers to be Occupied Palestinian Territories. So, even if there is no Palestinian state as such, there is land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinian people. Yes, collectively, not on an individual basis. Regardless of individual cases of claims to plots of land, those territories are Palestinian. So any settler activity is illegal.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent I completely disagree with a concept that a group of people who never had sovereignty can somehow have this concept of "ownership". If people own farms and houses, they own it and Israel has no right to claim it. Unowned land that was part of Ottoman then Jordan remains unowned. There is no magic dust that somehow makes it special Pali land. Still, you are right that Israel may have a bias for new jewish ownership than arab.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough It's ironic really. You claim that individual people own property, not collectives. Ok, let's accept you view. In this case, can you please explain to me why Palestinian individuals in 1948 owned 96% of the land (I'm talking overall land, including both present-day Israel and occupied territories) and now they live in only 22% of the land and own less than this 22%? I know the answer: Israel stole Palestinian land and houses. It is well-documented.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent I do not have statistics of the actual land ownership before Israel- how many people sold their homes, how many people abandoned them, how many homes were bulldozed. No doubt that was a significant percent of each.
In the arab lands where 850,000 jews were evicted, the percentage is about 99% stolen. Many of these people and their descendants now live in Israel
A final settlement must make these people whole in addition to the arabs in new Pali
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough My oh my, again trying to use some other unrelated fact to try to whitewash an Israeli crime. I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about 850,000 jews evicted from a vague "arab lands", but it is irrelevant to the issue.
Jewish settlers evicted 750,000 Palestinians from their homes (and stole them) in 1948 for no other reason than to create a Palestinian-free land. It was planned ethnic cleansing, as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe will explain in detail to you.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent .... and I repeat what I said before: Palestinians owned 96% of land in Palestine in 1948 and now they live in 22% and Israel does not even allow them to live a normal life in that area, as well as decide that all new buildings are illegal (of course, the Israelis are the ones who issue the permits). The very generous offer the Palestinians have accepted all these years is a two state solution that would mean renouncing to 78% of the original Palestinian territory.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent I posted somewhere what the settlement will look like. I did not see ur response but it covered borders (similar to 67); Jlem; refugees and Pali army.
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent watch I hate Israel - Displacing People. 850,000 jews were evicted from a dozen arab countries. they will get payment for being evicted, same as arabs from Palestine will get compensation for lost homes.
Obviously some of the 750k arabs were evicted, many fled and some sold their lands. It wasnt planned cleansing or the jews would have started the fighting and the 1948 wars. But it was the arabs that started both
firstonethrough 3 weeks ago
@firstonethrough Again, you are simply using an unrelated fact, which does not even relate to Zionists, to somehow justify the murders, rapes, forceful evictions, and property confiscation perpetrated by radical Zionists in 1948 (which by the way was planned, as you can see by reading Ben Gurion's statements).
What you are referring to is eviction of jews from many unrelated lands. No relation whatsoever to Palestinians, Israelis or Zionists. As unrelated as Rwanda massacre.
palimpsestransparent 3 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, sorry, but the "murders, rapes, forceful evictions, and property confiscation" you are referring to are either nonexistant or very minor, compared to just about any other conflict. In particular, I am not awara of a single rape. But I am aware of false reports of rape, reports that were spread for propaganda purposes.
Actually, Israeli army is the only army in human history accused of not raping. That's right, accused.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
There are murders going on in the U.S. on daily basis. That doesn't mean that the U.S. as a country should sease to exist.
The "Ben Gurion's statements" you are referring to are not really his statements. They were made up or re-written by propagandists. In particular, when Ben Gurion and other Israeli leaders referred specifically to terrorists, propagandists replaced "terrorists" with "Arabs."
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Over the past 10 years, every story of "major Israeli attrocity" has turned out to be a lie.
Al-Dura's murder, Jenin massacre, family on the beach, mother and four children at Beit Hanoun, shelling of the UNRWA school, killing of Mahmood Mashharawi, Gaza blockade - all full or partial lies.
The very necessity to lie like this is proof that there is nothing real to accuse Israel of.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, no, sorry, the fate of Jews - the "Jewish issue" - being oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered, expelled, exterminated in country after country for the last 2000 years - is very relevant here.
Jewish people are people. Human beings. And as human beings, have all the basic rights others take for granted: life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Beginning with the right to life.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
2000 years of exile, of being a nation without a country, have proven that this most basic right cannot be guaranteed by living in other people's countries. Therefore, it has to be secured by creating our own.
And if some local population with no national identity and no real difference from those around them is not willing to accept it, picks up weapons and goes on murder sprees (Nebi Musa riots (1920), Jaffa riots (1921), Hebron massacre (1929), Safed massacre (1929),
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
the Great Arab Revolt (1936-39), Tiberias Massacre (1938), school bus attack (1970), hijacking and blowing up airplanes in Zarqa (1970), Lod Airport Massacre (1972), Munich Olympics massacre (1972), Kiryat Shmona massacre (1974), Ma'alot school massacre (1974), Entebbe hijacking (1976), etc. etc.) then what they deserve is a war. Which is what they get.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
When you say Jewish fate is irrelevant, you de-facto say that Jews are not human beings. But you are wrong. We are human beings, and our fate is relevant.
Here is just one of these: Hebron Massacre:
1929 Memorandum presented to the British high commissioner by Hebron's community:
"Rabbis, Meir Kastel, 68 years old, and Tzvi Drabkin, 70 years old, and five other young men were robbed, castrated, tortured and murdered.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"Baker, Noah Immerman was roasted alive on an oven, Rabbi Ya'akov Orlanski HaCohen was found praying they took his brain from his skull and his wife's intestines were crushed.
"Pharmacist Ben-Tzion Gershon, lame, unable to move, who served in Hebron for 40 years, kindly assisting many Arabs, they cut off his nose and fingers, killed him, raped his daughter and murdered her with awful torture. The teacher Dubkinov and Yitzhak Abushdid were strangled with a rope.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"Six synagogues including 64 Torah scrolls, many of them ancient, from the Spanish exile, all were stolen and desecrated"
In response to this, the remainder of the community was expelled 'for their own safety,' and the murderers inherited their property.
Here is an Arab woman, remembering it fondly and wishing for more:
watch?v=T64JIgs5C6k
Irrelevant? No, dear, relevant! Very relevant!
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane You are confusing the issue on purpose. Leave the Jews alone. The Jews are not responsible for Israeli or Zionist atrocities. You should differentiate between Jews, who are just people, like when I say blacks or Italians, and Zionists, who are a group of people with a racist and supremacist ideology (kicking out the Palestinians from their own land), and Israel, which is an apartheid murderous state. Not all Israelis, but yes those Isralis in power. Boycott Israel!
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, no, I am not confusing the issue.
You are. You are misrepresenting Zionism. It is not "a racist and supremacist ideology (kicking out the Palestinians from their own land)," it is simply the thing I explained: the idea that Jewish people are human beings, with everything that follows.
There is nothing racist or supremacist about it, and it isn't about kicking anyone from their own land.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
You sound like that guy in a French play, who spoke prose all his life and never knew it. You say that Jews are just people. Then you too are a Zionist, even if you never knew it.
Sad to see how deeply lies and propaganda have penetrated into you.
If you have the courage to face yourself, I can try to teach you a few things. Very logically, little by little.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Zionism is indeed a racist and supremacist ideology. The founders of Zionism left no doubt about what their true intentions were. Their aim was to establish an ethnically pure Jewish state in someone else's land and they realised that the only way to do that was to get rid of the native population. Ben Gurion makes this clear in his diaries and letters. Doesn't this ideology of an ethnically pure Jewish state and racial superiority in regards to Palestinians remind you of something?
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent Zionism is no different than Palis seeking a state of their own. Or the Kurds seeking a state. Or the muslims seeking to separate from India to create Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is simply the term for jews seeking to rule themselves as other people seek to rule themselves.
One can be both pro Zionism and Pro-Pali. People who seek a 2 state solution want both parties to have their autonomy. Each state has/will have minorities living there too.
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@firstonethrough You state "Zionism is no different than Palis seeking a state of their own". You either misunderstand reality or you wilfully misrepresent it. Zionism was indeed seeking a state for a group of people, but instead of choosing an empty piece of land, they instead (in truly colonialist fashion) decided to establish it in a densely popluated area full of villages and life. Yes, I'm talking about Palestine. So the option Zionism chose was to expel and kill the native population.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@firstonethrough, yes, Zionism is no different from Kurds seeking a state. But it is different from Muslims separeating from India to create Pakistan and Bangladesh, and particularly from Palis seeking a state.
Kurds are a nation. Pakistanis are not a nation. They separated on religious grounds. Though Pakistanis consist of many nations, and in that way ther is some similarity to Jews.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
But Palis are not a nation. Until Israel was created, it was Jews inj the land that were called "Palestinians." And Arabs were simply Arabs. There was no Palestinian Arab identity whatsoever; Arabs didn't even recognize Palestine as geographical area. To them, it was just southern part of Syria.
Here are some quotes from Arab leaders themselves:
"There is no such country as 'Palestine'; 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi to Pell Commission in 1937
(cont)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." - Ahmed Shuqeiri, the first chairman of Palestine Liberation Organization, in a statement to the UN Security Council in 1949
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"I don't think there is a Palestinian nation. There`s an Arab nation. I don't think there`s a Palestinian nation. That's a colonial invention. Since when were there Palestinians? I think there's only an Arab nation. Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the southern part of Greater Syria." - Azmi Bishara, former Israeli Arab Knesset member, in an interview with Yaron London)
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity ... The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity." - Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO. From Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Moreover, Arabs to this day don't have national identity. Not even Arab identity. All they have is religion (deen), clan (hamoolah) and place attachment (balad, which can mean a geographical area, a country, or a village).
The rest is pure propaganda. People who have no national identity can call themselves anything they want if it benefits them. And they do.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
If Ben Gurion were to decide in 1948 to call the new Jewish country "Palestine," then those who today call themselves "Palestinians" would call themselves "native Israelis" and demand Jews to get out of their Israel.
Wouldn't that be interesting.
So yes, Zionism is just like Kurds seeking a state. Kurds are a nation. Palis are not, nor are they seeking a state. They are seeking only destruction of Israel and extermination of its 6 million Jews.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, you are now showing your ignorance. Not only there is nothing about "ethnically pure" state in "The Jewish State," the case is precisely the opposite.
You haven't read it, have you.
"Someone else's land?" This is false in so many ways, one doesn't know where to begin. Not only wasn't it "someone else's land," it still isn't. And I'm not even referring to Jews being there since 3300 years ago continuously to this day.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
This land was so empty in 1860s, and both Jews and Arabs lived there, and both Jews and Arabs started coming in increasing numbers, beginning in about 1833, when new workshops in Jerusalem were established by Moses Montefiore, and Jewish immigrants and Jewish money created all the opportunities in the land, which attracted Arabs from all around.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
So what is it that makes Arabs owners and Jews - occupiers? The fact that Arabs had power? But they didn't even have that. Turks had power, and later - British.
Nor was anyone expelled. The Arabs who didn't run away on their own became citizens of Israel: the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated Arabs in the region. And those who did run away ran on their own, usually before they even saw a single Jew.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Many were convinced by Arab propaganda, broadcasting lies about rapes and mass slaughter of civilians. Others just ran. Why? Because they measured by their own standards: they expected Jews to do to them what they would've done to Jews if they had won - a total slaughter.
But they were wrong.
If creation of a purely ethnic state were the idea of Ben Gurion, why didn't he proceed with it? Why were Arabs who stayed not expelled? Why did they become full citizens?
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
In place after place on this planet, invading army massacred local people. Ihn Tibet alone, over 1 million were killed. Hardly anyone noticed. But in Israel it didn't happen, so millions and millions are lying that it did.
The ideology you describe reminds me of many things. What it is not is Zionism.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Yes, someone else's land. I call villages full of people who own the plots of land and villages where they live "someone's land". It was not officially a "nation-state", if that is what you are referring to. But it was the land belonging to the Palestinians.
The Great Myth of Jews continually living on Palestinian land is just part of Israeli school indoctrination. Don't fall for it. There was about max. 4% Jewish population in 1851, and less beofre that. Read the facts.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent and jews continued to move there. The world underwent tremendous amount of immigration from 1870-1930. Palestine saw a lot of arabs and jews moving there. Ottoman powers let them come. After WW1, Brits put more restrictions on immigration of jews and let more arabs come in. The few hundred thousand arabs in Pali in 1851 did not own 100% of the land. You suggest that only people from 160 years ago a rightful owners. Untrue and silly
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
@firstonethrough The people who lived there were the owners of their respective plots of land. It might have not been 100% of the land, but it certainly most of it. The rightful owners of a land are the ones who have been living continually for generations. In this case the Palestinian arabs. The amount of Jews living there was insiginficant. The Jews that started arriving after that were exactly the ones with Zionist ideology and a colonialist plan of taking over the land. Which they did.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, how do you know the villagers didn't obtain that land by throwing out previous owners (maybe Jews)? How do you know they didn't sell the land, and then stayed on it? (Or else where did all the JNF money go?) Some were paid twice, some - 3 times. How do you know they didn't move in? (They move in all the time, and chase away Jews, today, in little Israel, never mind Judea and Samaria. I can give you details.)
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
The descendants of those murderers who did all that in Hebron still owe the Jewish property they inherited. And there were other massacres beside Hebron.
If you really want to know these things, you have to go to Israel and dig into old documents. I bet you haven't done that.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Jews did continually live in that land. And there is no justification at all for calling it "Palestinian" - this is one of those word tricks that "create facts on the ground." 4% or whatever - it's still a fact, not a myth. "Occupation" is a myth.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane You state "you have to go to Israel and dig into old documents". Yes, as if in the age of electronic documents and internet I have to physically be in Israel and "dig" into "old" documents. Please.
Talking about massacres, why don't you mention the brutal massacres by the Jewish terrorist organisation Irgun and Stern. They are in fact the founders of modern terrorism. So much talk about the evils of terrorism when it turns out the Zionists were the original terrorists.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent Dosome of the simple research then. Go to wikipedia if you like. You will see that these groups like Irgun came about AFTER the slaughter in Hebron 1929 that Kurtlane wrote about above.
You seem to echo the hatred of generations ago still unhappy with new neighbors. Jews have always lived in Israel and moved there before Zionism, during Ottoman, during British rule and current Israel. Make peace with your neighbors and stop citing 1851!
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, please yourself.
There is still plenty of stuff that's not on the internet. On the internet, on the other hand, there are many many things that are false.
If internet is all you rely on, I'm not surprized you got so many things wrong.
Irgun and Lehi (Stern) were relatively small organizations, (together much smaller than Hagana,) which were dissolved in 1948. The very fact that you have to go that far back to name them speaks for peacefulness of Israel.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
All major "Palestinian" orgtanizations: Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, etc - are terrorist. Today.
Irgun and Lehi were formed in response to Arab violence, such as in Hebron, and earlier. Arab violence was always there. In 1840, long before Zionism, Damascus Blood LIbel led to murder of 4 Jews, severe mutilation of 13, imprisonment of 63 children, etc. After that, pogroms spread throughout the area, from Istanbul to Casablanca.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
New round of Arab violence began with Nebi Musa riots in Jerusalem in 1920. This is what forced creation of self-defense groups like Irgun and Lehi.
So much for who was the "original terrorist."
As for moderrn terrorism, it was born when British men like Lawrence of Arabia tqaught terror techniques to Arabs.
British teach Arabs terror techniques, and Jews get blamed. As always.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Somehow all the violence done to Jews never registers with you. Only violence against Arabs matters. This is your problem. Though you say otherwise, you do not really see us Jews as human beings.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane You misconstrue what I said. I do know that Irgun, Stern and Hagana are from the British Mandate period until 1948. What I was pointing to is the fact that Israel keeps talking about the evils of terrorism, when in fact it was the one who actually started with terrorism in that region. And no, I do not need to go that far back to give you examples of Israeli state terrorism. I could give you a long list, but Gaza 2009 will suffice.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, I told you, Israel, or Irgun, or Lehi, didn't start terrorism in the region. Even Mohammed didn't start it. It was always there. There were always roaming bands of Bedouins ready to rob, kidnap or kill anyone. Until 19th century, few dared to live outcide city walls. Other Arabs were not that peaceful either.
As for modern terrorism, it too started with Arabs, trained by British in WWI. Before Irgun or Lehi.
Nice try.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
When you state things like this (timing upside down or other obvious mistakes) once, it could be an error or lack of knowledge. But when you state them again, everyone can see that you are a propagandist.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding "timing upside down", I am not changing the timing. I'm simply stating the fact that the Irgun and Stern started modern-style terrorism in that region. You should look up the definition of terrorism, as I think you are confusing terrorism with other types of crimes.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Your portrayal of the region is the worst example of colonialist attitudes to arabs. This portrayal of the arabs as evil people in bands ready to rob, kidnap or kill is prejudiced in the extreme. Just as prejudiced as the German imagery of Jews during the 1930s. I assume you are a Jew yourself, so just tell me how can you indulge in this negative portrayal of a group of people when Jews have been themselves victims of negative stereotyping?
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane And regarding your comments on the internet. I do not get all my sources from the internet, many I get from respected and acknowledged books by internationally respected and peer-reviewed scholars. The only things I get from the internet are things that are also very trustworthy, such as Israeli organisation B'Tselem, who documents the facts on the ground. Do you even know the figures? Do you know that Israel murdered 1380 civilians of which 700 unarmed, and 300 innocent children?
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, right, respected and acknowledged. Like Ilan Pappe or B'Tselem.
I've seen the lecture by B'tselem's Anat Biletzki (and Jeff Halper of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions) at MIT. And heard her lying, misinforming, deliberate omission of crucial information and making illogical conclusions. Plus her hatred for Israel was pretty obvious,
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
So if I saw top B'tselem person lie extensively in one lecture, why should I trust her or her organization at all?
These figures are about the recent Gaza war, arent they? Sure enough, they are lies."Civilians," "unarmed civilians" - sure, if you consider Hamas civilians. THe number of children killed is likewise a lie.
But what would one expect? War is deception.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding the figures during what you term the "Gaza war" and which I call the "invasion of Gaza", it astounds me that you can be so deeply ideologically biased as to question basic figures which are agreed upon by everyone who was on the ground. Even the IDF agree to at least 100 out of the widely agreed consensus of over 300 children. And your branding all citizens "hamas" is not even worth commenting on. This is becoming quite silly.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding your disdain for respected and internationally-acknowledged B'Tselem, again it seems the whole world is wrong, and only you in the audience had the superpowers to see that a spokesperson from B'Tselem was lying. I'm sure nobody else considered she was lying, only you. This is truly a paranoid world you live in, full of evil organisations, evil arabs, uncomprehending people, all out to get you. Poor victim.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, oh no. I'm not the only one accusing B'Tselem of lying.
People I respect include Brigitte Gabriel, Steven Emerson, Melanie Philips, Caroline Glick, Emanuele Ottolenghi, Fiamma Nirenstein, Philippe Karsenty, Barry Rubin, Anne Bayefsky, Allen West, Charles Krauthammer, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye'Or, Martin Kramer, Richard Landes, Andrew Bostom, Bruce Bawer, Efraim Karsh, Khaled Abu Toameh, Melanie Phillips, Nonie Darwish, Itamar Marcus,
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
John Bolton, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Geert Wilders, Douglas Murray, Frank Gaffney and many others.
There are still honest people in the world.
I can give you a fairly detailed report on how and where Anat Biletzki lied in that lecture. It doesn't take superpowers, just critical thinking.
Lots of people I know would agree with me.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
If anything, the problem is with you. Perhaps you don't hear other voices and assume they don't exist. But they do exist. There are still honest people in the world.
My greates uthority, ultimately, is my own experience. I've been to Israel. Twice. Including the territories. Walked the streets, rode busses and taxis. I have lots of friends and relatives there, I'm in contact with them.
So who am I to trust: your honest words or my own lying eyes and ears? (sarcasm)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane The pragmatic approach of talking to people you know there and visiting sounds better than it really is. In reality, if you speak only to a certain type of Israeli, which is most of them, you will not get the real picture. Israelis, except a few who have made an extra effort, live in a bubble protected by a narrative that is repeated in their media, in their schools, etc. And they end up believing this narrative, which is quite removed from reality in regards to the Palestinians.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, yes, unfiortunately, many if not most Israelis live in a bubble that as long as they treat Arabs nicely, bend over to them, give them yet another special favor, etc. etc., Arabs will at some point stop hating and killing them.
"If we are good to others, others will be good to us."
It's an ancient Jewish bubble.
The reality is just the opposite. It is not the cycle of violence, it's the cycle of shadow,.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Since the start of the 2nd intifada, all the murders of Jews, murders of Palestinian Arabs by other Palestinian Arabs, democratic elections of Hamas, etc. have made a crack in that bubble. However, the crack is still small and the bubble is still there.
But don't tell me that you, in academia outside Israel, have better idea about things there than they do. You don't, and being in academia is a big minus.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding your list of names, I have to admit I do not know most of the people you mention. I do not know how well-known they are or how respected academically they are. When I have some time I can have a look. But at the same time you should read Ilan Pappe and others with an open mind. Even Benny Morris, who is pro-Israeli, admits that the arabs were expelled forecfully, as well as there having been massacres during the expulsion. These are recent findings from 1980s.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, for starters, google and read "Benny Morris and the Reign of Error" by Efraim Karsh.
I tried to read Benny Morris -- the older Benny Morris (he too was mugged by reality and became more reasonable, though not enough even now.) I found it unbearable. Such hatred, such vicious joy at lambasting. No academic coolness at all.Even when looking just for information, I found it very very hard to go through this gloating hatred.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
As for Ilan Pappe - that's as real as Alice in Wonderland. But a lot less fun.
Some of the people in my list are academics: Ephraim Karsh, Daniel Pipes, Martin Kramer are academic maverics, trying to put some honesty into the Middle Eastern Studies.
Others are not academics at all. For example, Nonie Darwish is just a middle-aged woman with nothing academic.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
But she was born in Gaza, her father was an Egyptian general who died fighting Israel, she saw Israeli soldiers come into her house, she experienced a lot of things over there and in America, and when she went back to Gaza for a visit around 2000. She knows a lot and has a lot to tell.
I've been to universities many times, and as a result I have more respect for taxi drivers than for academics. Especially in anything related to politics. Particularly Middle Eastern politics. It's a disaster.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane This is again a rhetorical device you are using, which you seem fond of using. Imagine a Nazi guard about to execute Jews in Auschwitz saying "well, how do you know these Jews didn't do something bad during their lifetime?". There is no justification whatsoever for forcefully expelling, occupying and destroying villages of the people that had been living there for generations. No Wonderful Utopian Plan To Make the Jews Safe Forever can ever justify such colonisalist barbarism.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, there was no forceful expulsion. Nor was there any occupation or colonial barbarism. Nice try.
You can repeat these lies till your fingers fall off - it still doesn't make them true.
Today, Israeli Arabs are the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa. Some barbarism.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"Out of the ashes of 2 millennia of statelessness and persecution, the Jewish people rose up and restored their homeland. Against all odds, they created modern Israel with the international community's endorsement. They did not restore their land to take revenge on their enemies. They sought life and hope, and the right to live as a democratic nation at peace with its neighbors. The world should be celebrating this nation, not singling it out for condemnation.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
"This condemnation is a symptom of a sickness that we must unfortunately continue to fight."
- Roz Rothstein
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane You state "there was no forceful expulsion". Yes, you can choose to ignore the respected work of Israeli historians and imagine there was no forceful expulsion. But if one day you choose to read real scholarly work about this dark chapter in history, you will find in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by the great Israeli historian Ilan Pappe an enlightening explanation based on British declassified material and extensive research. Yes, 750,000 Palestinians expelled, thousands killed.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, the historian you mention - Ilan Pappe - is not respectable. He lies like he breathes.
Norman Finkelstein, Benny Morris and a few others are also not respectable. They also lie.
Read Ephrain Karsh or Martin Kramer.
750,000 expelled. Right, and also Israel fries millions of babies every day, and Jews turn into hyenas and eat corpses. (sarcasm)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Yes, sarcasm to confuse Jews, Israelis and Zionists, three completely different concepts.
It is common knowledge that the only tactic left to those who do not have the truth on their side is to slander and discredit those who simply expose the facts, maybe in the hope that others will dismiss their findings off-hand. I have noticed this attitude with those Israelis who defend Israeli policies, like yourself. Do you really believe Pappe's work is not factual? I'm lost for words.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, yes, it is sarcastic to separate Jews from Israelis from Zionists in a typical "divide ande rule" game.
Tell me please, if a nation is in utter dump, when it keeps going through endless rapes, expulsions, massacres, etc., and there doesn't seem to be any hope of it changing, wouldn't it be natural that this nation would be looking for a solution to such predicament?
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane No, I have no wish to divide and conquer. The distinction is necessary because they are completely different concepts. There are many Jews who not only are not zionist but actually consider themselves anti-zionist. And Israelis are simply the citizens of Israel. Let me make it clear: a jew is someone who feels he belongs to a judeic culture and tradition, Zionism is an ideology (a nasty one at that), and Israel is a state. Necessary distinctions.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, there are many Jews who are traitors. So?
Our time is similar to the time of inquisition.
Just as at that time, Jewish traitors are wanted and searched for: then to renounce Judaism and be used in attacking their relatives and former community in "religious debates," today to renounce Zionism and be used in attacking the Jews and the state of Israel.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Both then and today, the outcome of the "debates" is clear from the start: "Jews are guilty!" And to be expelled, in 1492 from Spain, today from Israel.
Only, today no convertion out of Judaism is needed. Today, traitors are more valuable as Jews.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane "Jews who are traitors", "time of inquisition". You are too steeped in extremist ideology to maintain any rational discourse. You really do believe you are a group of people who think alike, and anyone who thinks differently or who disagrees with Israel's policies is a "traitor". This is what I mean by supremacist ideology. You and other Zionist extremists have taken a dangerous path of self-destruction, just as the Nazis with their Aryan ideology did.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, so, Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw-Haw were just "people who thought differently."
I guess Uri Avnery, who scolded Arafat for not killing more Jews, also "thinks differently."
Nice try.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane And in reply to your plea which begins "if a nation is in utter dump...", you seem to believe the myth of the Jewish People as a common group of people who have lived a common history. This is not true. You cannot speak in the name of Jews. Every community of Jews have their own story which are unrelated to other stories. Zionism does believe in this dangerous myth of the Jewish People, which is as dangerous as the myth of the Arian People.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, read Ephraim Karsh and Martin Kramer. Particularly Martin Kramer's "Ivory Towers on Sand: The Failure of Middle Eastern Studies in America." See what they have to say about Ilan Pappe and his ilk.
Pappe is a member of Hadash (Israeli Communist party) and former candidate in the 1996 Knesset elections on the Communist party ticket.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Ilan Pappe spread the rumor accusing Jewish militia of killing more than 200 Palestinians in May 1948 in Tantura, south of Haifa. This rumor was the basis for Pappe's protege Teddy Katz's Jan. 2000 master's degree thesis.
When Haifa university refused to give the degree, Pappe called for boycott of his own university.
Nevertheless, in Nov. 2001 Teddy Katz was forced to apologize for making the false accusations following a trial in the Tel Aviv District Court.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
In 2002, Ilan Pappe signed a petition that charged Israel with plotting the "ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians under cover of the approaching war in Iraq. Now, 10 years, later, where is the ethnic cleansing?
It is funny that you claim that Ilan Pappe tells the truth, when Pappe himself said, ""[T]here is no such thing as truth, only a collection of narratives."
Some heroes you have.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Well, regarding Tantura, it so happens that I know quite well about this story, as I learnt of it some time ago, so your twisted version of the facts will not dupe me. The thesis was not based on a rumour, it was based on facts. But note how undemocratic Israel is: The moment the soldiers named in the theses found out about the thesis, they threatened with trial and the scared student signed a paper prepared by the soldiers' lawyers stating it was made up. Which it was not.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane And continuing further with Tantura, I am trying to understand whether you actually believe that Pappe "spread a rumour", which is so unlike his character and so preposterous an idea to anyone who knows him, meaning yourself duped by pro-Zionist propaganda. Or if rather you are yourself twisting the facts to portray Pappe in a negative light, which is the mechanism of discrediting those that expose true facts. Are you the slanderer or are you repeating words prepared by slanderers?
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, come on.
"Soldiers named in the thesis lied," "Tel Aviv District Court lied," "Israel is not a democracy if it doesn't confirm whatever Pappe says," "spreading rumors in not in Pappe's character."
Right, everybody lies, except Pappe, B'tselem and you. And you call others paranoid? What about yourself?
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Could there possibly be a chance that the soldiers read the thesis and were appauled by lies in it, and that's why they sued, and that the court found the truth and made a corresponding decision?
You should also know that I was called "Satan's seed" when I was 5 years old. After that, you can call me any name you want, I don't care.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding your rhetorical question on hypotheses that the soldiers were appalled by lies, I think you are being naive. The soldiers used their muscle to silence the uncovering of uncomfortable facts. In any case, the facts of massacres taking place during 1948-1949 is so well-documented that I need not expand on it here. Please read about it.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding your "soldiers named in the theses lied" etc, you are again misrepresenting what I said. I tried to summarise the story how it really happened. The soldiers did not lie. They threatened the student. The trial did not lie, as there was no trial. There was an out-of-court settlement because the student got scared and signed a paper prepared by the lawyers. So they made the student lie by making him sign a paper stating that the facts were not true, when they were. Simple.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, could it be that the student was really scared not by the soldiers beating him up, but by court finding there is no evidence there?
And how do you know the soldiers threatened the student? From the student himself? From Ilan Pappe? I wouldn't trust anything they said. Maybe they made it up.
No, I don't trust them. Not for a second.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane Regarding Pappe being a member of the Hadash, does this piece of information discredit him in your eyes? Are you a McCarthyist witch-hunter? I am now reading about the Hadash and it seems they are simply a non-Zionist and non-nationalist party that would like Israel to be a mix of Jews and non-Jews with equal rights. Their program sounds democratic and just. I don't see the problems you see. You haven't discredited him in any way in my eyes. Quite the contrary.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, I am from the Soviet Union. I've experienced Communism and communists on my own skin.
I've also met plenty of Communists and close-by leftists here in the U.S. They're not that different form Soviet ones, and, given an opportunity, would make another Soviet Union here. Israeli communists are also very similar.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Being a Communist doesn't completely discredit someone in my eyes. A Communist can still be honest, but only as an exception. Read the last part of Communist Manifesto if you care. It calls for lying and dishonesty.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane If you come from the Soviet Union then of course you will have a negative image of what communism is, as the type of communism that has been implemented around the world has been truly awful and should never be repeated. But having said that, you should not confuse this with a political party that calls itself communist in a more French tradition or meaning of the term. It is quite different. Hadash in this case is what I would call a "good" communist party.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, sorry, but the French communist party did a whole load of really awful things.
No, sorry, I don't buy "good Communist party" theory. They are good when it benefits them, but if they come to power, the mask is off, and it's the same ugly "bad Communist."
Even someone like George Galloway, who is just a sympathizer, is plenty evil.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, even beyond Communism, the overall leftist-liberal (I'm taking very broad category) ideology or approach is utterly upside-down. Everything that should be supported is diminished, and everything that should be diminished is supported.
There is a general, ill-defined but very deep-rooted sense that democratic foundations are fundamentally flawed.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Even if leftists-liberals call themselves "democrats" and say they are all for "democracy," in essence they are not, it's a rhetorical gimmick even if they convince themselves of it.
And the standard reply to any criticism from the right is "You are racist" or "you are fascist" or "you are a Nazi." While criticism from the left is listened to politely and taken into account. Thus the whole thing keeps moving left.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
The situation around Israel is a perfect illustration. In the Middle East/North Africa region, Israel is one beacon of light. Everything else is a nightmare.
True, Turkey was a democracy. But no longer. True, Lebanon was a democracy. But we know what happened to it.
And it is precisely Israel that gets blamed. Right now, Syrian army is massacring its own people. And here it's all about how evil Israel is.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Why? As JusticeVPropaganda said, "we are hated because we are too good and too moral !"
It's not logical. It's upside down. But that's how liberals and leftists see things: upside down. So to them it seems rightside up.
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
Comment removed
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Kurtlane You state "Today, Israeli Arabs are the healthiest, wealthiest, best educated Arabs in the Middle East". Are you referring to the handful of arabs living as second-class citizens in Israel? I guess that's what you are referring to, since the rest of the Palestinians, those on the West Bank and Gaza Strip are malnourished, their schools and universities are repeatedly destroyed, so no education there. Apart, of course, from constant killings and torture. It's all documented.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent lets hear your brilliant plan for what should happen in Israel today
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
@firstonethrough My plan for Israel today you ask. Quite simple. Go back to the June 1967 borders. Make Jerusalem an international city or split Jerusalem in two. Dismantle all settlements located on what is the Palestinian territory according to June 1967 borders, which means most of the settlements. Agree on minor border tweaks only by full consensus by both parties. And keep an eye on Israeli brutality, maybe some international force, as they are a dangerous lot.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent, right. And then be shelled by thousands of rockets from all directions, plus all sorts of other weapons.
One curious thing I learned in Israel: I was standing next to the Knesset (Parliament) building, and the entrance there was from the side. It looked a bit odd.
(cont.)
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
The tour guide explained that when it was built, the border with Jordan was so close that anyone from beyond the border could take a rifle and kill any member of parliament as he was coming in. Which is what made them change the location of the entrance.
You want it to return back to this?
Kurtlane 2 weeks ago
@Kurtlane You say "shelled by thousands of rockets from all directions, plus all sorts of other weapons". Well, it just so happens that it is Israel the one with weapons of "all sorts". And Israelis killed by rockets amount to approx. 1 PER YEAR. You seem to portray Palestinians as some crazed people who kill because of hatred, and in this way you depoliticize reality. They throw rockets only in retaliation from Israeli attacks and policies. You seem to be completely unaware of Israeli crimes.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent The counter:
Borders: like 1967+ Gush Etzion block+Maale Adumim. Swap for like land such as Um-AL-Fahm in Israel
Jlem: All Israel. eastern half to be populated by arab and Muslim embassies that make peace with Israel (essentially keep it arab+muslim)
Settlements: over X ppl stay and be part of Pali; <X ppl be removed
arab Return: limited. those w/ papers born before 1948 and relatives
Pali army: limited ballistics. no airforce
(cont)
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent (counter cont.)
This will make neither side happy and many will argue its unfair. It does have the advantage of being a stable long-term solution:
Israel Pali embassy in Bethlehem next to Tomb of Rachel (making it Israeli)
If Israel messes with arabs on Temple Mt, then it is balanced by jewish access to Hebron tomb and vice-versa
Arab League should agree and those sign first get best locations in E Jlem.
They also must compensate jews from arab lands
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago
@firstonethrough It's interesting. Any solution that allows for a viable Palestinian state, meaning that a Palestinian citizen can move from one place to another in their own country without Israeli controls, is a good type of solution. Regarding settlements, I think the idea of integrating the smaller ones within the Palestinian state may be ok (provided all agree), but at the same time unrealistic, as settlers are the most radical Israelis there are. Very racist and violent.
palimpsestransparent 2 weeks ago
@palimpsestransparent This solution will upset many ppl and it will not be easy. Much harder then pullout from Sinai and Gaza. But it will happen if everything else gets settled. It wont happen piecemeal - first borders; then right or return; then water; etc. As Govt will never get it approved or country to agree otherwise.
First step is a single Pali govt that can deliver. I truly believe that all these talks now r 4 show and worthless. Then Isr govt needs to lay it out
firstonethrough 2 weeks ago