Anglicanism, Churchmanship and the Eucharist

[AotearoaForever]

Really good video, MapleAnglican but what's with the pronunciation of the names of the vestments? And it isn't an ankle length Surplice, it is an alb. Also the Surplice Nick is wearing isn't an English Surplice. English Surplices are much longer and have fuller sleeves.

[MapleAnglican]

@AotearoaForever Travis said it was a Surplice and its made from a thin cotton linen so I just called it that. You might be correct about the Surplice, but the sleeves are considerably longer than what Roman Catholic clerics wear here in North America.

Truthfully I know of several errors in this video that I leave in much like some authors live with mistakes in their books.

[PsychoPunk1965]

I am an Anglican, but consider myself a "(broadly) high church Anglo-Catholic." I have a personal preference of a dignified service that combine elements of both low church and high church. On certain theological stance, I have a very "liberal Protestant" view (while liking the liturgical sensibilities of the Roman Catholic way of worship...

[kejcolley]

Second Part!!

I should also say that the Methodist Minister would also wear a black preaching scarf, but usually he or she would be in a clerical collar and their normal clothing. I am, by-the-way, an Anglican - from the Evangelical end :-)

[MapleAnglican]

@kejcolley We don't have a lot of Methodists left here in Canada since the 1920s when the Methodist Church of Canada united with (most of) the Presbyterian Church in Canada and formed the United Church.  The only Methodists remaining are the Free Methodists that are the result of missionary work from the US since the 1960s.

[authorion]

@kejcolley Actually, we Methodists in the UMC tend to wear stoles in liturgical colors now, either with a black preaching gown or an actual alb, though I am one of the few who wears an amice and cincture. I only have one chasuble, though (a white one)...

[PsychoPunk1965]

@authorion Isn't their a high church movement in the United Methodist Church?

[kejcolley]

A very interesting video, which shows up too some of the differences between the churches in the USA & here in England. Here (within the church) we rarely would use the 'high' 'low' definition - it would more-likely be 'Catholic' 'Broad' or 'Evangelical'. Also, the references to Methodists - here almost all Methodist Ministers if robed-up would wear Cassock, black preaching gown and hood (maybe preaching bands too) and only occasionally (usually at ecumenical services) would they wear an alb.

[MapleAnglican]

@kejcolley Here in Anglican Church of Canada, and in the Episcopal Church, the term (Anglo-)Catholic and Evangelical are usually only applied to the those who are "very high" or "very low" in their Churchmanship. For instance, Canon Travis rejects the term for himself why still considering himself "High".

[Henouk]

It's a CASSOCK not a COSSACK!

[MapleAnglican]

@Henouk Unfortunately no one realized my pronunciation error until a few weeks after I released this video and you are the fifth person to point this obvious and very stupid mistake of mine.

[hansjuergen1000]

This is my parish church, it is here I buried my late wife, and before too long I expect to be buried from here myself. After completing a BA in Religious Studies after retirement I came to appreciate the ritual aspect of religion as something to feed the soul; it is somewhat like the Hindu explanation of there being several paths to the attainment of a knowledge of God.The Anglican High Church tradition meets those personal and spiritual needs. My origin as a German Lutheran may be responsible

[jacobsen976]

Good presentation of the Anglican Church. It is Catholic and Protestant at the same time. Holy Writ is our guidline! It is all about worship and not about singing or witnessing a stage show. Get what I am saying? We live on a flat surface, not trying to climb up a mountain. Mankind is on the same course and we have salvation in love only in and through Jesus Christ our only mediator and advocate! Best shown in the Holy Euchurist!

[MapleAnglican]

@jacobsen976 Thank you very much for your comments and God Bless.

[thejamrocker1]

there are certain rituals that true anglicans do and this low church guy is ignoring all of them

[MapleAnglican]

@thejamrocker1 How so?

[pw4489]

I was speaking metaphorically. I've never in the US seen a Mass said as low as what nick does. Ever. In this country, even in the dreary South, one does not see his departure from the Western Right, and he looks like any number of protestant ministers. By the way, the word is Paten, not patent, there's no T at the end. But honestly, Nick could just as easily be a Methodist, or Presbyterian, or anything else, but not a recognizable Anglican.

[MapleAnglican]

@pw4489 Truthful for filming this I asked Nick to "be as Low Church as you want". I have seen Nick be the Celebrant Priest at a Choral Eucharist at the same altar. While Nick is certainly Low Church and tends to be more Protestant than other Anglicans he is still an Anglican priest.

[ASignOfContradiction]

The Anglican Church was founded by Henry 8th who was a murderous and blood thirsty monarch. Married 6 times, stole vast amounts from the True Church, murdered countless holy priests and leads a cohort of people from Truth to error. So Anglicans love the sect that was born of arrogance, egotism, pride, lust and vanity? The devil knows his own. The Protestant blight has spawned multiple offshoots. Catholic Church founded by Christ on Peter as PROMISED in bible. Catholic’s alone remain faithful.

[thunderbolt94]

@ASignOfContradiction

Dude, as a Catholic myself, you are being an idiot. What you are basically doing is poisoning the well against other Christians simply because you don't agree with their ecclesiology. Just because Henry 8th started Anglicanism, it does not mean that Anglicans themselves are not Christians, or that; so in other words, nice genetic fallacy, buddy. Bravo! Also, it's ironic that you accusing Anglicans of being arrogantand pride, yet you're expressing the same attributes.

[ASignOfContradiction]

@thunderbolt94 Er, dude, Read Mortalium Animos by Pius XI (1928) who teaches Infallibly about Protestant Christians: “These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith?... for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the RETURN to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it”. Learn your faith.

[thunderbolt94]

@ASignOfContradiction

Dude, lean not to be a douche to other professing Christians, then maybe I'll take you seriously.

[ASignOfContradiction]

@thunderbolt94 um, dude, I am not interested in how you 'take' me. I merely propound the doctirnes and dogmas of the Catholic Church without fear or favour. The Council of Florence defined infallibly that “Pagans, Jews, heretics and schismatics” are “outside the Catholic Church,” and as such, “can never be partakers of eternal life,” unless “before death” they are joined to the one true Church of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church. With so much at stake, one should call loud and clear.

[thunderbolt94]

@ASignOfContradiction

In other words, you're using catholic doctrine as an excuse to be a douche. Yeah, you really are an example of a representative of the Catholic faith (sarcasm). You are not being good example of a good catholic, so I have every right to call you a douche because you are using catholic doctrine as an excuse to be a douche.

In short, you're a douche.

[ASignOfContradiction]

@thunderbolt94 You calling me a douche only because you dont like the message. The 'church' of England is in schism, did murder loyal Catholics, did separate from Rome, did steal Catholic land and assets. Dont hate the messenger because the message is unpalatable. You wish to summon schismatics with a gentle whimper rather than boldly. If this upsets you, so be it. I am not responsible for your reactions which flow from your perceptions of my words, which are the words of the Church.

[thunderbolt94]

@ASignOfContradiction

Actually, I call you a douche because you are not being a Christ-like example of what the Catholic Church is. And no, King Henry 8th did not participate in the suppression of the pilgrimage of grace. Don't exaggerate and distort history.

And I say that as a loyal member of the Roman Catholic Church.

[ASignOfContradiction]

@thunderbolt94 And calling someone a douche is? In 1534 the Act of Supremacy was voted according to the terms of which the king became the sole head of the Church of England and was to enjoy all the prerogatives which had hitherto belonged to the pope. Refusal to recognize the new organization was punished with death. Various changes followed: suppression of convents, destruction of relics and of numerous pictures and statues. Schismatics then and now. Ask Thomas More if you're not sure of facts

[thunderbolt94]

@ASignOfContradiction

"And calling someone a douche is?"

Jesus did call the Pharisees snakes and a brood of vipers, so yes.

[ASignOfContradiction]

@thunderbolt94 Ha. You're funny. Anyway you continue to tread softly and I will announce the Truth from the roof top. God bless you in your immersion into Catholic Tradition. Take care.

[pw4489]

Let's simplify this: Travis is an Anglican and Nick is a Methodist.

[MapleAnglican]

@pw4489 No, they are both very Anglican. I ended leaving the footage out by Nick was actually raised in a High Church Parish while Travis was raised a Roman Catholic.

Also, in Canada we really don't have many Methodists anymore.

[authorion]

@pw4489 Methodists are essentially Anglican. Both John and Charles Wesley died in Communion with the Church of England, i.e., they did not stop being Anglican.

I have seen many Methodist ministers use High Church practices as well (like the chasuble and signs of the cross). The current United Methodist Book Of Worship is actually very High Church in its rubrics, and since the 2004 General Conference the UMC has definitely moved "officially" into a more High Church, i.e., "Anglican", stance.

[PsychoPunk1965]

@authorion My Anglican Priest used to be a United Methodist Church Minister. When he was in the Methodist Church, he practiced a high church Methodism. He wore the collar, chauseble, and had frequent communion. My understanding about Methodist clergy is that they are given a clerical collar that they can wear by choice, right? Although I am not a Methodist, I think it would be a good idea to move more toward a high church (because their theology demands it).

[authorion]

@PsychoPunk1965 Methodism was originally a High Church movement within the Church of England (especially influenced by the Non-Jurors), hence their being called "Methodist" and "Sacramentalist". John Wesley's Sermon, "The Duty of Constant Communion" called for an almost daily participation in the Eucharist. The 19th century saw the Methodist Church get hijacked by Low Churchmanship, but a resurgence of Wesleyan scholarship tends to promote a High ecclesiology.

[authorion]

And yes, original Wesleyan Methodist theology DOES demand a High ecclesiology, and so we United Methodists are getting "high", especially since the official declarations in our 2004 General Conference on the Eucharist in the document titled "This Holy Mystery".

[uj888n]

I'm an "Orthodox high-Church Roman Rite" Catholic. This video is hilarious!

[MapleAnglican]

@brassspitoon I would ask you to kindly keep your comments a bit more professional and respectful please. Thank you.

[MapleAnglican]

@brassspitoon To be frank the one scene with them "joshing" was actually done at my request for the purposes of the video. It actually took a lot to convince them to do that scene. Conversely, I don't know if you are insinuation that either Priests are anything but Heterosexual. If you were I will let you know that to the best of my knowledge both are straight and one is happy married.

[karpov89]

Very good and informative video! For me as a Lutheran I think it is strange that not all priests - normally - wear the chasuble during the mass, in Sweden almost all low church priests do, although I am not sure it is a must. Also it is strange that the low church priest has not the same belief in the real presence...is that really allowed?! No or small difference in the Lutheran church. Making the sign of the cross is usually done before the elevation, not after, also a bit strange.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 Rev. Nick has made some comments that he wished to clarified his position a little better, however, has never asked me to remove or re-edit this video. Conversely, the Anglican position on the Real Presence is fairly vague which is why you may run into some who believe in Memorialism and others in Transubstantiation.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican It is really interesting to see that the differences seem to be greater within the Anglican communion than in the Church of Sweden which is in communion with the Anglican communion. Here the is no issue about memoralism in the eucharist even within the low church, broad church, old church (orthodox lutherans) and high church.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 Very true. While the European Anglican Churches are in Communion with you via the Provoo Communion the remaining members, such as the Anglican Church of Canada, are sadly not. However, we are in Communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada.

I always find learning about the Church of Sweden to be very fascinating as it seems very unique for a Lutheran Church.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican Really?! But I guess it can't be for theological reasons..and that I don't have to hesitate going forward to the priest at the communion. Sweden is one of few churches with has retained the Apostolic succession in the same way as the Church of England (both not recognised by the Catholic church of course). Finland has received the Apostolic succession from Sweden (was a part of Sweden before), and I also think the Latvian Lutheran church has it..

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 If I recall the Church of Norway and Church of Denmark regained Apostolic Succession through the Church of Sweden as well. I can't remember how the Baltic Churches obtained it. I seem to recall that the EKD is not in Provoo as many of the the Bishops in its member Churches don't have Apostolic Succession.

The Anglican Communion is also in Full Communion with the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht whose orders Rome Does recognize.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican No, Denmark and Norway (a part of Denmark until 1814) did loose it during the reformation and has not wanted to have it. Denmark is not a parot of the Porvoo communion and in fact, Swedish or Finnish bishops are not allowed to lay their hands on the bishop electus so that he or she will not be infected with the disease of the Apostolic Succession!! The Danish bishops do not wear the mitre and crosier, only the cope. It is unusual for Danish priests to wear alb, stole and chasuble.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 Norway would have to have regained Apostolic Succession it before the Provoo Communion was created in 1994 and the C of Norway was a full member. The C of Denmark had only been an observer until last year as I would image they only recently recovered Apostolic Succession. I just assumed they got it from you Swedes.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican No I am positive the Norwegian and Danish churches do not have the apostolic succession in the same way as Sweden. But the thing is that the Porvoo Communion also recognises that there is also the succession of the teachings and that is enough for the Church of England and Church of Sweden..well at least officially. I don't recognise it though..about EKD, Evangelische Kirche Deutschlands..they are not real Lutherans and their bishops are not ordanied like in Scandinavia.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 for the Norwegian and Danish Churches I can tell you that we Anglicans do not accept Full Communion with *any* other Church unless she is in Apostolic Succession. I can only then conclude that both Churches had recovered it as that is the only logical answer.

I know that the EKD is a "mixed" Church with Lutheran and Reformed Churches within one umbrella. I seem to recall that at least some of the member Churches *might* have Apostolic Succession but I can't recall which ones.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican As you can see in my videos bishops from Church of England comes to Sweden sometimes to take part in Christian conferences and similar..and as you can see in my videos then can be very different, in one video there is a very low church evangelical bishop who during the mass is dressed only in alb and stole..that would not a Swedish lutheran bishop do at such a festive occasion.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican I think it is. Sadly it is political influence in the church which has lead to that the church officially is liberal like the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, but on the other hand there is still conservative groups within the church, and there are still priests who do not accept woman priests. Today you can not be ordained with that position and can't have a new position as a vicar of a parish (only parish priest)or ordained as a Bishop.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada we do have a small minority that do not support the Ordination of women, however, holding that position can be impractical as we do have Women Bishops now (as does the Church of Sweden if I recall). For example my own Diocese is presently on our Second Bishop that is a Woman. However, I would have to say the Dioceses in the ACC that have had Women Bishops haven't really had more strife than those with only men as Bishops.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican Right now we have three bishops who are female, out of 13 dioceses. What is very bad is that one of them is gay without living in celibacy and furthermore liberal. She is bishop of the diocese of Stockholm, where I think the situation is worst in all Sweden. The problem is that if you are unsure about the validity of woman priests, if there is a female bishop ordaining a male priest - is this ordination really valid?

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 Personally since my conversion to Anglicanism I've never had issues with the validity of women in ministry. After 14 years I would say about a third of the Priests in my Diocese were ordained by our present Bishop (Jane Alexander) or her predecessor (Victoria Matthews). At the same time it's important to remember that just because a Priest or Bishop is a woman doesn't necessary make her a Liberal as is evident in our last Bishop.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 The point of this video was to talk two priests of different Churchmanship and highlight the differences that can be seen within Anglican through the Eucharist. Canon Travis and Rev. Nick both graciously agreed to do so, however, Canon Travis is not representative of all High Church Priests and Rev. Nick is not representative of all Low Church Priests. I had some excellent unused video of Rev. Nick explaining his own upbringing in High Church Anglicanism.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican Norwegian priests and bishops wear alb, stole and chasuble (but not when preaching!), Bishops may wear a cope (but priests are not allowed!) but not the mitre and crosier. At the ordination of the bishop of Stavanger an Anglican bishop did take part but it has not happened since then as far as I know.

[MapleAnglican]

@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada both Bishops and Priests will wear the alb, stole, chasuble and cope, but will never wear the chasuble and cope together. Only Bishops may wear the Mitre and carry the Crosier. Deacons will wear an Alb with the stole to the side and the Dalmatic instead of a Chasuble. I have a video on deacons actually.

[karpov89]

@MapleAnglican Yes that is correct, not the chasuble and the stole at the same time, of course. The Swedish deacons are properly ordained unlike most Lutheran churches and they wear the alb and stole like the Anglican church. The Dalmatic is very rare in Sweden, you can see it in one of my videos (mass in Helga trefaldighets kyrka , but actually it is a concelebrating priest wearing it.

[authorion]

@MapleAnglican "I had some excellent unused video of Rev. Nick explaining his own upbringing in High Church Anglicanism."

Any way these unused footage be brought out to light? Just curious...

[MapleAnglican]

@authorion Likely not. I had about an extra 12 minutes of footage with Rev. Nick and about 9-10 minutes with Canon Travis and I had to cut out a lot of stuff to keep the video compact. I do have a blooper or two from the shooting for this video and a few others that I might use some time.

Hint: Watch and listen for a cell phone going off in this one.

[ndrussiangerman1]

The High Church priest is more humble and reverent than the Low Church priest. The High Church priest's points are valid indicating a more substantial worship experience.

I tend toward a "Middle Church" or "Broad Church" Anglicanism. However, I value the High Church and am at home in a High Church setting. I don't prefer Anglo-Catholicism, though. Anglo-Catholicism is Roman Catholicism without the Latin. In fact, some Catholics consider it the "Anglican Rite".

[MapleAnglican]

@ndrussiangerman1 While their are a number of Anglo-Catholic Parishes that tend into something called "Anglo-Papalism" by some I would say they are a minority. If you are ever in Toronto you might want to visit the Parish of St. Thomas on Huron Street. I have personal never been there but they are a fine example of Anglo-Catholicism that can't really be accused of "Romanizing" Anglican Liturgy.

[frsdonahue]

All of this is the solecistic modern mess-of-pottage liturgy. It is NOT traditional Anglican. They are celebrating facing the people, in imitation of modern Rome. Low Churchmen never used the 'orans' position of the hands, and wore cassock, surplice, stole. The High Church priest made SO many liturgical grossities; i.e., joining the canonical digits together BEFORE the Consecration. He calls himself a Liturgist!!! I think he needs to be TAUGHT Liturgy!!

[MapleAnglican]

@frsdonahue No one said they were traditional, in fact how they conduct the Eucharistic prayers is the modern way you would see a High Church and a Low Church priest do it. High Church Priests don't have to face East and Low Church Priests don't have to be at the North end of the Altar. Conversely, when filming both Priests I asked them to "show me *exactly* what you would do on any Sunday".

[MapleAnglican]

@frsdonahue The point of the video was *not* to show traditional Anglican liturgy, but the differences that can be found between two Priests using the exact same Prayer Book.

[organeric]

Cassock (not cossack)

Cincture

Reredos

Paten (not Patent...that is a legal document)

I could go on...

[MapleAnglican]

@organeric Yeah, I messed those up. I also spelled Ablutions wrong in the video.

[beswanky]

@organeric chasuble not chausable

[beswanky]

@organeric ablutions not abolutions

[MapleAnglican]

@beswanky It's a long story but I actually owed someone a beer over that spelling error.

[beswanky]

why doesn't the High Church priest genuflect?

[MapleAnglican]

@beswanky Not all High Church Anglicans genuflect, including at the consecration of the elements. If I recall correctly the Sarum Use only had the priest bow after their consecration. As well, in Orthodox Churches the priest will only bow reverently.

[organeric]

please, could you pronounce the words properly

[MapleAnglican]

@organeric Which world did I mispronounce?

[MapleAnglican]

Sorry, which words did I mispronounce?

[MapleAnglican]

@ArmoredEpiscopalian All Saints' Cathedral is considered Broad Church. It has been common to have a High and Low Church priest as either the Dean and Curate which ends up balancing things nicely.