"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" (Eph 2,1f.)
Paul is definitely not talking about having died with Christ and being dead to sin here, man! You are mixing up the metaphors. He's reminding the Ephesians that they were spiritually dead previously but that God saved them out of grace, not oit of their own doing.
Wow, good job ignoring Ephesians 2 and every other text that refers to man's inability to come to Christ. This is why I can't believe in synergism. One has to proof text his way into reasoning that man is responsible for his faith, regeneration and ultimately salvation.
We have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, yet with that ascertained knowledge we find ourselves fighting over it. God sees us, His children, wasting our time arguing about such things and weeps as millions are swallowed up by hell. Follow His mission and be of one mind.
How do we understand that " and you who were dead in trespasses in sins" ANY OTHER WAY??? unregenerate man hates God and always has, how can we deny God's absolute sovereignty in regeneration.... so are we to understand that we command the spirit to regenerate us by choosing God with this "capability". Man is not capable 1 Cor. 2:14... lets take the context of the entire bible here
The points in the message are well taken. However some of the comments on here are very misguided. Predestination, foreknowledge, foreordaination, election are all words found in the bible. To say predestination makes no sense or is unjust? If you are one of his you are predestined, perhaps if you dont want to accept this, but it does make sense and God is not unjust. Not defending Calvinism or Armenianism, but let scripture interpret scripture. You will find a wealth of scriptures on election
@corneloup81 Yes, some scriptures do indicate that. However there are many that dont. Ex:Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Unlike some, I dont call people heretics who disown this doctrine. I say let God be God, the scriptures reveal his soveriegnty.
@b1foschiefs Ordained does not mean preordained. It is simply saying those that heard the Gospel that day, (which ultimately God had planned the situation) got saved thats all. We dont have to give it a strenuous interpretation and make words mean things they dont.
@corneloup81 OK.... well if you want to force your own definition on the word than that is your business, but in the context of scripture is means appointed or determined. I have already conceded that some of the scriptures in the bible seem to be pointing to our sanctification, but this will not work in every place. I have not said that A always equals B as you have. Just read the scriptures, you cant force your beliefs on all of them, it doesn't fit.
@b1foschiefs As many as were ordained to eternal life - St. Luke does not say fore - ordained. He is not speaking of what was done from eternity, but of what was then done, through the preaching of the Gospel. He is describing that ordination, and that only, which was at the very time of hearing it.
While debate is good and encouraged in order to figure out theology, from reading a lot of the material in the comments section, I fail to see respect and love towards each other. Just because you have a view point on this matter doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to others that disagree with you. Also, this is not a non-negotiable belief. You can be a Christian and be a Calvinist/Arminianist/Molinist/Other (not ALL others, but assuming Christian).
@rdrministry Yet the person of Christ points to exactly the opposite of Calvinism. We know God through who Christ was. Predestination makes no sense if a loving God exists.
@RealBloppy Christ said that He laid His life for His sheep. That's a specific group. Not everyone will be saved, because not everyone is a sheep of God whom He just didn't manage to save. Jesus saves all that the Father gives to HIm and He loses none of them. Christ points to calvinism, Paul explains predestination- the reason why we are more than conquerors, and we say "If God is with us, Who can be against us" is because He has chosen us to be His children.
and you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked, FOLOWING THE COURSE OF THIS WORLD, following the prince of power of the air...AND WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND (Ephesians 2:1-3). Interesting...we all read into the text unless we claim to be able to separate fully our mind from our own personal context and understanding..."now we see through a mirror dimly". Pray for the Holy Spirit and stop trying to rebuke Calvinism and go read Calvin 1009 pages
I totally agree that Adam died the day he ate the fruit, but he never had a spirit neither does the unbeliever. The scriptual position is defined in Romans 4. Ephesians 2 has nothing to do with it.
Now I always believe that a Calvinist who is ignorent and genuinly mistaken may still be a Christian, but you now have no excuse repent of your heresey or perish.
@Caleb000007 Why do you say: "Don't lie, it's a sin"
The Greek text reads: τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις
If you have no knowledge of Greek, I suggest you learn it, because it is a much different language to English. Sorry to disappoint you, but παράπτωμα is trespass (singular), and ἁμαρτία is sin (singular). You have just listed the lexical forms of the words in question.
Ephesians 2 has everything to do with it: death in sin, passions of the flesh, children of wrath by nature.
I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 43 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 53 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
Jesus said the Pharisees would die in their sin. In this context He is referring to physical death. God Himself said that the very day that Adam ate of the fruit he would die. Adam did not physically die that day, so the question would have to be, in what way did he die? Eph2:1-3 helps put that into context. He died spiritually, in His sins. If not, God is a liar.
If men were spiritually alive, then died in their sin with Christ, then were made alive, it would say exactly that, but it doesn't.
@becauseHeisgood I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 43 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind."
I think you may misunderstand who a true Calvinist is, one who would follow after Calvin in his love for the truth of the Word of God. Even still, how do we reconcile Ephesians 2:1-3 and what you are saying.
The Christian was spiritually dead, and in that dead was made alive (v5), and also died to the power of sin (Rom 6:2)
@theonewholovesjesus The passage has no context that supports your view....Jesus said to the pharasies "you will die in your sin". The Christian first spiritually dies in his sinful sin, (he is now dead in sin), and in that state of helplessness God quickens him with Christ.
You talk about taking things out of context, as gracious as I can say this, how do you deal with Ephesians 2:1-3, the passage you skipped to get to verse 5.
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience,...
@theonewholovesjesus When you are buried with Christ your old self is dead in the sins, which you once walked and you are then quickened with Christ and become a new creature.! Its very easy to understand. First your walking around in your sin then you die in your sin that you once walked according to and then you are quickened with Christ.
@Caleb000007 To be blunt, that is one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard. You twist the text to say what it does not say.
The Greek for Eph 2:1 literally reads: "And you being dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked...". It is not saying that one time you died in sin, it is saying you were dead in sin.
@becauseHeisgood Your pathetic attempt to belittle me is so weak! I know and so do you that this smashes your garbage! No Calvinist has ever been able to debate me and no Calvinist can respond logically to this argument! Stop rebelling against God and forsake your heresey.
@Caleb000007 I mean not to belittle you, but to be frank what you have done with Eph 2:1-3 is twist it into a presupposed view that is in fact incorrect. You cannot hold such a view if you understand the basics of Greek grammar.
I would caution you though, be careful who you call a heretic - it is a very strong word.
You should answer my question though, God promised that Adam would die the very day he ate the fruit. Adam did not physically die that day. Are you calling God a liar?
@becauseHeisgood The answer is in the video...dead does not mean a dead spirit or anything like it. It means we cannot produce the fruit of righteousness. The example given in the video is abraham's deadness. But Abraham was still able to have faith in the promise. Don't bother asking stupid questions if you have not listened to the video.
@Caleb000007 Have you learnt or are you learning Greek at all?
Trying to add extra Scripture to negate the plain grammatical meaning of Eph 2:1-3 will not work.
So answer the question: God promised Adam that he would die the very day he ate the fruit. What sort of death did Adam experience? Or are you calling God a liar? God did not say: "for in the very day that you eat of it you will no longer be able to produce the fruit of righteousness". If He meant that, He would have said exactly that.
You're missing the difference between being "dead in sin" (Colossians 2, Ephesians 2) and being "dead to sin" (Romans 6). Christians, before becoming Christians, are dead in sin, along with the rest of the world. Once someone is in Christ, they die to sin, so that they can live a righteous life.
Willingly ignorant of what? People who rise in Christ were previously dead in sin, just like every other sinner. What, are non-Christians, "alive in sin"? If there is life in sin, then of what use is life in Christ?
@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. They are not dead spirits, they are not spiritually dead. However there flesh is unable to produce spiritual life.
@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. They are not dead spirits, they are not spiritually dead. However there flesh is unable to produce spiritual life.
@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. But because we have all sinned we need to be born again and be given new nature in Christ
@Caleb It's true that only those who are regenerated are mentioned in the passages, but what difference does that make? Even if we were to agree that only Christians are ever dead in sin, It's still the case that all who are dead in sin do not save themselves by their own choice or power. The "dead man" argument still holds true. Christians, when dead in sin, don't choose to be saved, and non-Christians also don't choose their way into salvation either, whether their dead in sin or not.
@herald1509 The dead argument does not hold if you accept that only Christians are dead in sin. First I will say you are correct when you say that those who are buried with Christ cannot choose to be saved. But those who are buried with Christ have already repented, chosen to forsake their sinful lives, cried out to God for mercy and placed their faith in his promie of redemption. Then God must choose to save them, and he will.
@Caleb000007 So you're saying that the rising part is not a choice, but the dying part is? Death is the choice of those who commit suicide, but not for others. I don't think there's any hint of encouraging people to die in their sins here or elsewhere in Scripture.
May I ask you, do you consider yourself to be dead in sin?
@herald1509 No I am not my old self I am a new creation, I have been born again. I was dead in my sin then I was quickened with Christ by the power of Christ.
@Caleb000007 So you're no longer dead _in_ sin, correct? But are you dead _to_ sin. So, this means that being dead in sin and dead to sin are two different things. The video FAILS because it treats them as the same thing.
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" (Eph 2,1f.)
Paul is definitely not talking about having died with Christ and being dead to sin here, man! You are mixing up the metaphors. He's reminding the Ephesians that they were spiritually dead previously but that God saved them out of grace, not oit of their own doing.
TimotheosCauvin 6 days ago
Wow, good job ignoring Ephesians 2 and every other text that refers to man's inability to come to Christ. This is why I can't believe in synergism. One has to proof text his way into reasoning that man is responsible for his faith, regeneration and ultimately salvation.
NealMcCrispy 1 month ago
The real message here: "No Country for Old Men" was an excellent movie. What Would Cohen Brothers Do?
bmdx527 3 months ago
Here is the real question: In the first picture, why is there a candle on the Bible? You'd think the wax would get on the pages...
djlovescrista 5 months ago
Consequentially unregenerate men are ... not dead in sin, but alive unto God?
There is no logical argument presented here.
FillTheirVoid 6 months ago
We have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, yet with that ascertained knowledge we find ourselves fighting over it. God sees us, His children, wasting our time arguing about such things and weeps as millions are swallowed up by hell. Follow His mission and be of one mind.
pcruze81 6 months ago
So wrong on so many levels. This guy is so much in rebellion against scripture it is dangerous.
pastor1689 9 months ago
How do we understand that " and you who were dead in trespasses in sins" ANY OTHER WAY??? unregenerate man hates God and always has, how can we deny God's absolute sovereignty in regeneration.... so are we to understand that we command the spirit to regenerate us by choosing God with this "capability". Man is not capable 1 Cor. 2:14... lets take the context of the entire bible here
dfan6640 9 months ago
This debate has not just begun over night...and will not end with just one simple video. The scriptures speak for themselves!!!!
brettandalyssa09 10 months ago
@brettandalyssa09 The reason why this argument has never been used in 400 years is because they were baby baptisers
corneloup81 10 months ago
The points in the message are well taken. However some of the comments on here are very misguided. Predestination, foreknowledge, foreordaination, election are all words found in the bible. To say predestination makes no sense or is unjust? If you are one of his you are predestined, perhaps if you dont want to accept this, but it does make sense and God is not unjust. Not defending Calvinism or Armenianism, but let scripture interpret scripture. You will find a wealth of scriptures on election
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Elected, predestined and foreordained to live blameless lives
corneloup81 10 months ago
@corneloup81 Yes, some scriptures do indicate that. However there are many that dont. Ex:Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Unlike some, I dont call people heretics who disown this doctrine. I say let God be God, the scriptures reveal his soveriegnty.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Ordained does not mean preordained. It is simply saying those that heard the Gospel that day, (which ultimately God had planned the situation) got saved thats all. We dont have to give it a strenuous interpretation and make words mean things they dont.
corneloup81 10 months ago
@corneloup81 OK.... well if you want to force your own definition on the word than that is your business, but in the context of scripture is means appointed or determined. I have already conceded that some of the scriptures in the bible seem to be pointing to our sanctification, but this will not work in every place. I have not said that A always equals B as you have. Just read the scriptures, you cant force your beliefs on all of them, it doesn't fit.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs As many as were ordained to eternal life - St. Luke does not say fore - ordained. He is not speaking of what was done from eternity, but of what was then done, through the preaching of the Gospel. He is describing that ordination, and that only, which was at the very time of hearing it.
corneloup81 10 months ago
While debate is good and encouraged in order to figure out theology, from reading a lot of the material in the comments section, I fail to see respect and love towards each other. Just because you have a view point on this matter doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to others that disagree with you. Also, this is not a non-negotiable belief. You can be a Christian and be a Calvinist/Arminianist/Molinist/Other (not ALL others, but assuming Christian).
theshakoone 1 year ago
Romans 9
John 6
Ephesians 2
These passages point to a calvinistic perspective.
rdrministry 1 year ago
@rdrministry Yet the person of Christ points to exactly the opposite of Calvinism. We know God through who Christ was. Predestination makes no sense if a loving God exists.
RealBloppy 1 year ago
@RealBloppy Christ said that He laid His life for His sheep. That's a specific group. Not everyone will be saved, because not everyone is a sheep of God whom He just didn't manage to save. Jesus saves all that the Father gives to HIm and He loses none of them. Christ points to calvinism, Paul explains predestination- the reason why we are more than conquerors, and we say "If God is with us, Who can be against us" is because He has chosen us to be His children.
rdrministry 1 year ago
@rdrministry Logical fallacy of Redherring, the video was not about election or eternal security
corneloup81 10 months ago
@rdrministry Strawman argument this video is about the dead man theory not eternal security
corneloup81 10 months ago
and you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked, FOLOWING THE COURSE OF THIS WORLD, following the prince of power of the air...AND WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND (Ephesians 2:1-3). Interesting...we all read into the text unless we claim to be able to separate fully our mind from our own personal context and understanding..."now we see through a mirror dimly". Pray for the Holy Spirit and stop trying to rebuke Calvinism and go read Calvin 1009 pages
MrSpiritBorn 1 year ago
νεκρός (dead) παράπτωμα (Trespasses) καί (and) ἁμαρτία (sins)
Don't lie its a sin.
I totally agree that Adam died the day he ate the fruit, but he never had a spirit neither does the unbeliever. The scriptual position is defined in Romans 4. Ephesians 2 has nothing to do with it.
Now I always believe that a Calvinist who is ignorent and genuinly mistaken may still be a Christian, but you now have no excuse repent of your heresey or perish.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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@Caleb000007 Why do you say: "Don't lie, it's a sin"
The Greek text reads: τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις
If you have no knowledge of Greek, I suggest you learn it, because it is a much different language to English. Sorry to disappoint you, but παράπτωμα is trespass (singular), and ἁμαρτία is sin (singular). You have just listed the lexical forms of the words in question.
Ephesians 2 has everything to do with it: death in sin, passions of the flesh, children of wrath by nature.
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
And I meant Isaiah 53 not 43
Caleb000007 1 year ago
Sorry the word "in" is not in the text
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 43 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 53 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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Caleb000007 1 year ago
Jesus said the Pharisees would die in their sin. In this context He is referring to physical death. God Himself said that the very day that Adam ate of the fruit he would die. Adam did not physically die that day, so the question would have to be, in what way did he die? Eph2:1-3 helps put that into context. He died spiritually, in His sins. If not, God is a liar.
If men were spiritually alive, then died in their sin with Christ, then were made alive, it would say exactly that, but it doesn't.
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
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Caleb000007 1 year ago
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Caleb000007 1 year ago
@becauseHeisgood I know you are weak in the faith but did you not listen to the argument: Listen again and hear what Romans 4 says about what it means to be spiritually dead. Go read Isaiah 43 and then follow on by reading the first vs of CH 54 and Listen to the video again. Put down you Calvinist rubbish and start reading the bible. The WHOLE bible and not just the New Testament. In order to understand New Doctrine you have to be farmiliar with the Old Testament.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind."
I think you may misunderstand who a true Calvinist is, one who would follow after Calvin in his love for the truth of the Word of God. Even still, how do we reconcile Ephesians 2:1-3 and what you are saying.
The Christian was spiritually dead, and in that dead was made alive (v5), and also died to the power of sin (Rom 6:2)
theonewholovesjesus 1 year ago
@theonewholovesjesus The passage has no context that supports your view....Jesus said to the pharasies "you will die in your sin". The Christian first spiritually dies in his sinful sin, (he is now dead in sin), and in that state of helplessness God quickens him with Christ.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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theonewholovesjesus 1 year ago
You talk about taking things out of context, as gracious as I can say this, how do you deal with Ephesians 2:1-3, the passage you skipped to get to verse 5.
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience,...
theonewholovesjesus 1 year ago
@theonewholovesjesus When you are buried with Christ your old self is dead in the sins, which you once walked and you are then quickened with Christ and become a new creature.! Its very easy to understand. First your walking around in your sin then you die in your sin that you once walked according to and then you are quickened with Christ.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 To be blunt, that is one of the stupidest explanations I have ever heard. You twist the text to say what it does not say.
The Greek for Eph 2:1 literally reads: "And you being dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked...". It is not saying that one time you died in sin, it is saying you were dead in sin.
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
@becauseHeisgood Your pathetic attempt to belittle me is so weak! I know and so do you that this smashes your garbage! No Calvinist has ever been able to debate me and no Calvinist can respond logically to this argument! Stop rebelling against God and forsake your heresey.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 I mean not to belittle you, but to be frank what you have done with Eph 2:1-3 is twist it into a presupposed view that is in fact incorrect. You cannot hold such a view if you understand the basics of Greek grammar.
I would caution you though, be careful who you call a heretic - it is a very strong word.
You should answer my question though, God promised that Adam would die the very day he ate the fruit. Adam did not physically die that day. Are you calling God a liar?
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
@becauseHeisgood That is a joke a Calvinist appealing to greek grammer! The words "in sin" are not even there in the greek!
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 Yes they are. τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις, literally: "in trespasses and in sins".
Have you or are you learning Greek at all?
Deadness in sins is evident right from Genesis. God promised Adam that he would die the very day that he ate the fruit.
Eph 2:1 does not say: "And you died in..." it says "And you were dead in...". That is a continual thing.
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
@becauseHeisgood The answer is in the video...dead does not mean a dead spirit or anything like it. It means we cannot produce the fruit of righteousness. The example given in the video is abraham's deadness. But Abraham was still able to have faith in the promise. Don't bother asking stupid questions if you have not listened to the video.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 Have you learnt or are you learning Greek at all?
Trying to add extra Scripture to negate the plain grammatical meaning of Eph 2:1-3 will not work.
So answer the question: God promised Adam that he would die the very day he ate the fruit. What sort of death did Adam experience? Or are you calling God a liar? God did not say: "for in the very day that you eat of it you will no longer be able to produce the fruit of righteousness". If He meant that, He would have said exactly that.
becauseHeisgood 1 year ago
It is interesting that you need to die before you can be raised in newness of life. So you die to sin before you are regenerated! Debunked!
Caleb000007 1 year ago
You're missing the difference between being "dead in sin" (Colossians 2, Ephesians 2) and being "dead to sin" (Romans 6). Christians, before becoming Christians, are dead in sin, along with the rest of the world. Once someone is in Christ, they die to sin, so that they can live a righteous life.
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 You are willingly ignorent! The passage is speaking about those dead and buried with Christ!
Caleb000007 1 year ago
Willingly ignorant of what? People who rise in Christ were previously dead in sin, just like every other sinner. What, are non-Christians, "alive in sin"? If there is life in sin, then of what use is life in Christ?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. They are not dead spirits, they are not spiritually dead. However there flesh is unable to produce spiritual life.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
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@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. They are not dead spirits, they are not spiritually dead. However there flesh is unable to produce spiritual life.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@herald1509 The context in both passages is speaking of those who are buried with Christ. In these two passages those who are said to be dead are those who are buried with Chirst. Christ died and was raise and so we died and were raised.
Now in answer to your second objection yes sinful men are alive and I see people walking and talking everyday who are not born again. But because we have all sinned we need to be born again and be given new nature in Christ
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb It's true that only those who are regenerated are mentioned in the passages, but what difference does that make? Even if we were to agree that only Christians are ever dead in sin, It's still the case that all who are dead in sin do not save themselves by their own choice or power. The "dead man" argument still holds true. Christians, when dead in sin, don't choose to be saved, and non-Christians also don't choose their way into salvation either, whether their dead in sin or not.
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 The dead argument does not hold if you accept that only Christians are dead in sin. First I will say you are correct when you say that those who are buried with Christ cannot choose to be saved. But those who are buried with Christ have already repented, chosen to forsake their sinful lives, cried out to God for mercy and placed their faith in his promie of redemption. Then God must choose to save them, and he will.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 So you're saying that the rising part is not a choice, but the dying part is? Death is the choice of those who commit suicide, but not for others. I don't think there's any hint of encouraging people to die in their sins here or elsewhere in Scripture.
May I ask you, do you consider yourself to be dead in sin?
herald1509 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 Again, do you count yourself to be dead in sin?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 My old self is dead in sin "yes" I have been quickened in with Christ. Read Romans 7
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 Are you your old self? Are you dead in sin?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 No I am not my old self I am a new creation, I have been born again. I was dead in my sin then I was quickened with Christ by the power of Christ.
Caleb000007 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 Now, do you count yourself to be dead to sin as Paul says a Christian should, in Romans 6:11?
herald1509 1 year ago
@Caleb000007 So you're no longer dead _in_ sin, correct? But are you dead _to_ sin. So, this means that being dead in sin and dead to sin are two different things. The video FAILS because it treats them as the same thing.
herald1509 1 year ago