@lordnocts If your asking for the first communist leader then its Vladimir Lenin if your asking for the first human being that thought of it then that very very debatable.
@realIBeliX What how am i going to tell you something no one knows. Its debatable some people think the first communists came from Rome while others believe the first were the Russians.
There have been dozens of documentaries about Stalin's terror yet none have ever incited Russians as strongly as the Soviet Story. Why is this? Has Edvins Snore, who isn’t even a historian, truly uncovered something real historians had missed? If he did I certainly haven't seen any evidence for it, except comparisons of Nazi/Soviet propaganda posters, the pinnacle of Snore's analysis.
A more likely possibility is that SS is a DISGUSTING film that has little to do with actual historical facts.
@JD12ish i guess the real reason why this exact movie got so strong reaction from officiol russia is the level this film reached (i mean EU parliament) and also most likely there would not be so strong reaction if this movie wouldn't be made by best russian mockumentary technology -i mean i can see same type products turning on any Ru TV chanell -offcourse it's propoganda -but still it's russian own medicine
@ymydy4 Though you make a nice point and I appreciate you recognizing this film for what it is, I have to disagree. The making of the Soviet Story was sponsored by the UEN Group, a collection of conservative, right wing political parties from within the EU parliament (members of which even appear in the SS).
That is also why it is perfectly legal to distribute SS over the internet, no doubt to “educate” as many people as possible.
@ymydy4 So a film that was paid for by the Right just happens to equate Socialism to Nazism and utterly vilifies Russians, both popular topics for members of the UEN Group.What a FANTASTIC coincidence!
Edvins Snore, author of the Soviet Story, is not a historian. In fact, he doesn't know the first thing about scholarly history or care about its most important consideration, namely OBJECTIVITY. Instead, according to his rather short CV, Snore is a "master of political science", whatever that is.
@JD12ish "film that was paid for by the Right just happens to equate Socialism to Nazism" !false! -more correct: film was made to show that Soviet regime as it's crimes prove it is as disgusting as Nazi Germany
@ymydy4 I am not Russian, I don’t understand the language and I certainly can’t read Cyrillic. I have therefore never seen any such mockumentaries though I have no doubt they exist and that they try to pervert history in their own way. But this particular film was shown in my country, all over Europe and even in the US where the far-right Republicans LOVED it (Beck&Co). Under the comments of the numerous YouTube vids you can even find neo-Nazis praising this film for “exposing the truth”.
@JD12ish i do understand russian as good as my native language and must say sometimes it just getting me sick when i see these modern russian agitprop pieces and in this case i m glad that russians got to swallow the same bitter taste of black and white history -only good thing this movie did was that first time i've seen loud discussion about equality sign between 2 monster regimes -while i may dislike the way it's done i support the purpose because soviet crimes should be judged the same way
@JD12ish so can you explain then "with historical facts'' why Germany and the soviets both started the WW2 as aggressors by both invading poland and having the ribbentrop-molotov non-aggression pact sealed a couple of weeks before??
I can only laugh for those people stories. But we cant blaim they because its normal that commies missing over 50 % for they brains. These people are great example how stupid people commies are, only where they are good is make pathetic stories.
EVIL, MAN-EATING COMMUNISTS!!! THANK GOD CAPITALISM SAVED THE WORLD!! iraq,palestine,afghanistan,iran,vietnam,MILLIONS OF CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA,destruction of planet earth.......they are minor mistakes,capitalism is perfect!!SHUT THE FUCK UP AND CONSUME!!!!
@NOpsrn the system is mixed economy not capitalism capitalism only exists in third world countrys and has higher death toll and worser dictators like cartels STOP MISINFORMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like nazi Germany, Russia has it's deniers, the deniers of The Communist Holocaust. According to Rudolph J Rummel, that after the Korean War dedicated the rest of his life to the research on murderous / democidal regimes, communist dictatorships murdered 148 million human beings in the 20th century, while Nazi Germany murdered 21 million -i.e., in numbers, communist regimes was 7 times more murderous than nazi Germany!
@maganz You know, if you take the number of people murdered by the Nazis and divide it by 3, then take the square root of that and plot it on a logarithmic scale, you get the average IQ of YouTube users commenting on the Soviet Story.
However, if you take the number of people killed by Communist regimes, log it, add five, multiply by six, then multiply by zero and add 7 and you get the number of days in a single week. Coincidence? I think Not!
Too bad we have freedom of speech here. A rigth these kind of assholes want to take away from other humans.
Russian estonians treated badly? Shiit if estonians treated the russian occupiers same way their ancestors treated the estonian civilians after WW2 there would be none of these shitheads left in Estonia.
You either speak the local language and support the local culture or than you get the fuck back to your beloved motherwhore Russia.
what kind of a stupid fag do you have to be so that you could feel the right to ignore such a part of history? ask majority of russian politics, historians or even civilians...
What the fuck, that bustard doesnt even know who made the film, fuck those fuckin pigs, its Latvian film not Estonian. The man who made this film was soon shot. Watch the movie, cause thats the truth, my family had to go all thru it.
What the fuck, that bustard doesnt even know who made the film, fuck those fuckin pigs, its Latvian film not Estonian. The man who made this film was soon shot. Watch the movie, cause thats the truth, my family had to go all thru it.
Lol. How did you figure that out? Mine is a direct response to cyperrate's post below AND keeping to topic. So, how an earth it can be deemed as a spam?
You're wrong, whoever you are. AND you KNOW it.
BTW - we ARE what we think; wonder what are your thoughts, and wonder who's pulling strings in your constitution - spirit of Stalin...
Will be marked as spam - well, at any given time we WILL do, and CANNOT but do except that, which is topmost in our hearts.
they should protest. the documentary was nothing but half truths and lies. it misquotes marx and engels and it exaggerates the collaboration between the nazis and soviets
On the last charge, I agree (though not because it says anything WRONG, it just took it out of context by not mentioning things like the Spanish Civil War and the buildup to Barbarossa).
However, compared to most Putin-approved documentaries, it is practically SPARKLINGLY accurate.
No it's not. It is clearly one-sided which is not what a documentary should be. It also uses false imaging and video manipulation. I can give you some examples if you like. Besides to which "Putin-approved" documentaries are you referring to?
"It is clearly one-sided which is not what a documentary should be."
Depends on whether we are talking about a Documentary (which is literally more or less just a type of film) or an ideal documentary (in which case I agree). However, while it certainly is imperfect as a documentary, I have seen fairly little that was objectively wrong (as opposed to blown out of proportion).
As for false imaging and manipulation, I would like to know where, and whether that changes the nature of a picture.
Well it obviously does, you see the western public's opinion on SU is based mostly on films like that, "Soviet story" is the film that openly criticizing SU and uses false evidence to support it's idea. And you are saying that it's ok because we know the nature of the picture, a nature which we have from films like that?
As a more general comment this is the tension that I get often by SU critics and Russophobes: "we cant prove anything, we use false evidence, but come one everyone knows that it's truth". Well the truth is based on a popular opinion which is being implied on us by biased Western Media.
As for the "Putin-approved" issues, the most obvious example would actually be a textbook (the infamous "A History of Modern Russia 1945-200? (I forget the later year)", which conveniently either does not mention or ignores the ethnic cleansings in Eastern Europe after WWII, and the Def. Ministry paper blaming Poland for WWII.
Actual documentaries I cannot remember of the top of my head, but I will get back to you on.
Ok the documents busting the Soviet Story are mostly in Russian so I hope you do understand it. I'm sending you the link to the document via PM. If you don't read Russian you can at least see the picture on page 25 of that document.
What ethnic cleansing do you refer to? Deportations? I have been saying it all along deportation is very overrated as a punishment because unlike gas chamber it's not the end of your life, most people actually survived the deportations. I'm not justifying them tho.
Kremlin must have been paying me peanuts because I still have to work on my day job. I was waiting for that to rise actually, anyone who says anything bad about Estonian government and tries to protect Russian minority rights, is clearly on Kremlin payroll, way to go mate! God bless Main Stream Media!
I never called all Estonians fascist, I'm saying that some people in Estonia [like in most countries] are trying to glorify Nazi movement (giving medals to SS officers, calenders) and government does nothing about it. Look, you failed to explain [let alone prove] any of the facts that you are on about. All that you have is an impression implied on you by Main Stream Media.
In all due honesty to the "SS" issue, they are by all accounts the Estonian SS, who were one the far cleaner and morally unstained units operating on the Eastern front, to the point where they were counted as separate from the rest of the SS (a move that wasn't opposed by Moscow), and indeed saw many of them used as GUARDS at Nuremberg (AGAIN the USSR did not object), which should tell you something.
I don't doubt that many have taken that too far, but that alone is not necessarily sinister.
True, but the Baltic SS groups (including the Estonian SS) were explicitly stated as SEPARATE from the mainstream SS, and were accepted as such, as HICOG explicitly stated in 1950.
SS is an organization that was declared criminal in WHOLE. Which includes all the SS groups. And it makes no difference that American Military organization stated that they are "no threat to USA government" or something like that, they are still a members of criminal organization.
most russians talk about other being the bad ones , though they refuse to learn the countries native language where ever it is ( latvia , estonia , poland , lithuania etc.. )
Russian nationalists, they accuse certain countries for promoting fascism but I think they themselves are fascist. They are certainly not communists. They (Gorbachev administration) admitted Stalin's crimes during Glasnost. Now they are rejecting them again, or more precisely, justifying them. Russia will always be the same, whether it is czarist, communist or nationalist it makes no difference. Russia will stay the same.
Wanna show me the bit where they "rejecting" or "justifying" Stalin's crimes? Noone does that. They are just protesting against apartheid politics of Estonian government and rewriting history. Soviet Story is just a bunch of footage with voice overs, no real facts....
That wasn't in this movie. I was talking about the new official Russian interpretation of history. I hear it's been changed again and what they decided back in Gorbachev's time (Stalin = Bad guy) is no longer valid.
"no longer valid" - yeah, keep reading Oksonen. You might as well go and live in a cage somewhere, there is a new reality, the Russia is new, Stalin is officially condemned in Russia.
first of all - if you say that SU didnt want to occupy baltics. and it was a peace loving regime.... then why the hell did it attack finland and poland?
"there is a small bit of land called baltics - which is filled with friends of soviet union and who want large amount of their people to be deported and imprisoned in order to let foreign people to resettle on their lands." where is the logic ?
I see the question you want to ask, you are doubtful that Baltic countries wanted to join SU, and it seems a reasonable question in 2009 but in 1939-40 everyone in Europe was afraid of Hitler, and SU has been made a monster only recently. Besides Soviet propaganda promised many good things.
P.S. it was not large amount of people deported (22-25 k), and even less imprisoned.
"you are doubtful that Baltic countries wanted to join SU,"
Since I have seen histories of the Baltic wars of independence, the pre-1940 border crossings by the Red Army, and the rampant deportations after the occupation, I would say NO KIDDING.
"but in 1939-40 everyone in Europe was afraid of Hitler,"
True, but that does not mean the Baltic states were absorbed consentingly.
The number "close to 90 000" refers to 3 Baltic states. We were talking about Estonia only, number deported from Estonia is 22-25 000. Answer me this: do you know how many of those people were rehabilitated and sent back home in 1959?
"Sorry for the miscommunication" - no problem, even tho its often used to mislead Estonian people, you see thanks to our MSM, who is using same technique most of them (just like you did) believe that 90 000 is the number deported from Estonia alone.
Well, I think you got the number wrong, but you see that deportation is not really a measure of extermination (like gas chamber). Besides vast majority of deported people were just moved to Siberia, they were not imprisoned or killed.
I see you are from Estonia so I will ask you this: don't you think that we are being manipulated? Don't you think that we have been set apart (Estonians and Russians) artificially by our government? I mean before 2007 we were more or less friends. And don't you find it odd that 3 out of 4 presidents of former USSR republics that have big problems with Russia came from north America?
average ivan from narva manipulated by russian propaganda ? yes.
i have watched "news" from RT and PBK - the amount of unthinkable crap they show there is unimaginable.
" estonia full of nazis" , "erna retk glorifies nazism", etc... i have many russian friends and co-workers - highly educated, really good people. every single one of them laughs at propaganda coming from the east.
The Erna group was an Estonian volunteer group in FINNISH service. So unless you think the Finns (who, by the way, violently forced the Germans to evacuate Northern Finland at a considerable cost to their own) are "SS" or "Nazis", I think you might bee the one who is a bit confused.
"The unit was formed to work in cooperation with Finnish and German military intelligence". Finns actually helped Nazis on several occasions (Siege of Leningrad), and Erna reported to Nazi German Military. So it's not me who is confused.
Yes, and your quote is amazing in its lack of power.
Simply put, if you know the history of the Erna group, that passage translates to "were trained partially using German instructors and held liaisons with other German units." Which is a far cry from being an SS unit. And as I stated before, Erna group reported to Helsinki first and foremost, and while the Germans could occasionally give orders, the Finns had the final say (and they often did override several orders from Berlin).
And as for the Seige of Leningrad, it is (if anything) a perfect example of the lengths that Finland went to stay OUT of German influence and to help them as little as possible, considering that:
A. Helsinki forbade German and Spanish troops from massing in Finnish-held Karelian Isthmus.
B. Finland halted all attacks on the North of Leningrad.
C. Finland forbade shelling Leningrad from their territory in the North.
and finally,
D. Finland forbade attacks upon the "lifeline" to Leningrad.
2007... why was it bad to relocate remains of fallen soldiers buried next to a TRLOLLY STATION to military cemetary?
i mean, it is time for you to understand, that we, estonians are not your enemy. the real enemy who wants to set us apart walks among you - nashi: zirõk, linter, reva etc... they are not here for you, but for someone else. everyone who can think, knows where do these guys get orders and finance from ;) . cheers.
Answer to your question: it was bad because it was done without preparations, without honor, and people were fulled, and before removing the monument Ansip said that there are "drunks and marauders burred there". I don't see how you don't understand it was the removing of the monument that set us apart. ...
(continued) Those people you mention are really poor, I don't think that they are financed from somewhere. But I also understand that no matter what I say you will blindly believe that anyone who supports Russian people's rights is financed and get orders from devilish Kremlin.
and as i said i have many russian friends and co-workers. i have asked them in a way, if they feel discriminated, or do they think that their rights have to be guarded by night watch... first they laughed, then they asked if im serious.
on the other hand, if people tear down estonian flags and threaten local estonian people in idavirumaa. during est-eng football match they wore eng supporters shirts. then i say it would be difficult to mix est-rus people there.
T7_HXPMuw68 - yeah I have seen that, and it's truth. Erna was a part of SS it was reporting to Hitler, who killed millions of people and was systematically exterminating people based on their race/nationality. And this military game is allowed eg. supported by current active government of Estonia. About discrimination: Did you know that there are laws in Estonia that designed to separate Russians from Estonians and limit Russian people's rights? Need more info?
lenin was responsible for murdering millions of russian people, and yet they allow this kind of nonsens to be aired. no wonder russian speaking estonians who watch this glorify soviet union, its deeds, and leaders.
add there acts against its own people by stalin - and you have to ask how is it even possible, that there is somebody who actually praises this regime....
Mate, whether you like it or not SU is the reason why you are able to use internet, watch Estonian TV, fly airplanes and speak/read/write in your own language. Besides, it is a point of view of someone who is in opposition to official active government, it does not reflect the point of view of official RF. PS. Stalin is a criminal and this has been an official position of RF.
group erna sabotaged russian advance in estonia. doing so tens of thousands of estonian civilians managed to flee to the west. avoid "punishment squads" who raped and murdered their way accross estonia... while escaping onboard of civilian vessels red armys aiforce destroyed and sank many of them. killing thousands of refugees.
its like if i said that bronze soldier is a part of stalins criminal regime responsible for killing tens of millions innocent people.
The first part of your message is rubbish. "punishment squads" is a product of imagination of sick, brainwashed people. If they raped and murdered where are the graves? Why isn't it documented?
Laws: current citizenship law says one should not get citizenship if his or her parents were not living in Estonia before 1940. And strangely enough about 90% of people whom this law affects are Russians. So it's just a trick to prevent Russians from voting. Which is a violation of our rights.
U mean "istrebitelʹnyĭ batalʹon" in WWII? There are documentations about this. There were certain orders for this and also Stalin did a broadcast about it over the radio. These squads were allowed to kill anyone without any court order. There were made certain more than 1800 people who were killed from these squads.
About Laws: i had a problem to get a citizenship because my grandparents were living in Siberia that time. Its difficult. Dont think the reason is Estonian gov.
"without any court order" - what, there should be a court order to kill Nazis during the war?
Well, what is the reason then? Actually there is no difference what reason is behind this, the fact still stands: current Estonian law limits the rights of ethnic Russians. Apparently you are one of very little number of ethnic Estonians who fell into this category majority of which consists of Russians.
hi again )).... SU is the reason? When SU came then Estonia became a big prison camp; where people who were thinking wrong were tortured, shot, captured, massmurdered (Tartu, Kuressaare aso...) or deported. Estonians were blamed to cooperate with germans and because there was a big mistrust against estonians, the terror was quite awful.
This is all BS. I think we have been through this. You cannot name single fact of mass murders of Estonian people by SU, can you? And even if you could that doesn't change the fact that most of (even today) infrastructure was built by SU. You are watching Estonian television through the TV tower that SU built and then left for people of Estonia.
Actually I read it from a newspaper and it was also in another documentary on TV some time ago. I hear Stalin is a hero again in the new nationalist Russia.
Well you saw brainwashing in progress, mate. Mass media want's us fighting, look for Ron Paul on youtube and see what he has to say about Russia. Russia is not nationalist. An never was. Unlike in Estonia it is not government policy to discriminate people based on their nationality. For example several ministers of RF are not of Russian nationality. How can it be nationalist. tbc.
why should one get citizenship, if: a) he wasnt born in that particular country b) he cant speak its official language c) he dosent know anything about its culture and about those "punishment squads". graves? people were shot on sight and left there. documented? no documentation on paper exists because of: a) no documentation about this has never been made b) it might still be seald in russian archives. and you saying that it never existed ? people still REMEMBER.
1. a) - WRONG! do you realize that most of Russian people who are being deprived of citizenship were born here? EXACTLY like you.
b) why is Russian not second official? 43% of people in Tallinn are Russian speakers.
c) We were studying Estonian culture in schools during soviet time.
About "punishment squads" - so let me get this straight: there are no documents and no evidence once or ever, but you somehow remember. Yeah, mate that's strong. Clear your mind, mate.
so... if you occupy another country. deport part of its native residents to siberia. settle your own people to its country.
(pre II ww about 4-5% of population were russians, after sovietisation there were almost 50% russians here).
and after country regained its independence you act suprised and ask why russian isnt second official language here, since here live so many russians ?
come again ?!
you had like 60 years to learn estonian, what the hell is this fuzz all about ???
You are the one who is causing the fuzz. You asked me for examples remember? Estonia joined SU voluntarily and it did it clearly to defend it's people from advancing Hitler. But how is it my problem anyway? It doesn't matter how Russian people got here, it's not their fault what games dirty politicians are playing. Your relatives were victims of Stalin but it was 60 years ago. Who is going to protect my rights in now?
Well it may be considered to be so in Oksanen books mate, but certainly not in Russia. If you look at the list of it's leaders you will find that one of them (Shoigu) is ethnic Tuvan and another (Shaimiev) is Tatar, neither of which is Russian.
No, I would say you are being ignorant. The country may seems nationalist to you, so be it. If you choose to believe in what you like to be truth, there is nothing anyone can do. But you can't argue with the fact that, unlike in Estonia, neo-nazis are being prosecuted everyday in Russia and get real punishments.
It's probably easier to be a nazi in Estonia than it is to be a communist. I'm guessing that since Estonia has such a negative view of their time with the USSR, they tend to generally dislike Russians too. Also they probably associate Russia with communism so I bet any "Pro-Russian" opinions are also seen as "Pro communist". And all anti-communists tend to be anti-Russian or otherwise nationalist, and vice versa.
(cont...) besides phrase "I hear Stalin is a hero again in the new nationalist Russia." is rubbish by it self since Stalin was not Russian him self. How can he be hero of Russian nationalists? What the hell are you on about?
i never said I remember punishment squads. but there are people living in estonia, who experienced it first hand. including many of my relatives ie 3 of my grandfathers brothers and 1 sister. 2 of my grandmothers sisters. and so on... and its just MY family.
so .... you acting as you were the only victim here, is inpropriate.
Were your relatives brutally killed on sight by "punishment squads"? I'm sure they were not. I'm sure you are referring to them being deported to Siberia. Am I right?
no.... grandfathers 2 brothers (15 and 18) were shot next to their house on a field. much like grandmothers sisters - only they were shot while trying to flee to the woods. they were killed by advancing russian troops... tho they had no namesigns "punishment squad" on their forehead.
"Estonia joined SU voluntarily and it did it clearly to defend it's people from advancing Hitler." - - - thats where you have your facts wrong.
actually it was 22.07.1940.... it took place also at 21.07.... but the meeting was cancelled before any decision...because Vares suggested from communist parties to have a local government.... but they threatened to kill him... so yes the decision was made next day... when the oppositon was braken... the wote was made while the parliament building was filled in and out of Red Army soldiers and NKVD agents...
Greatest Russian TV-show, a.k.a. "Имя Россия", same concept as "100 Greatest Britons". The people voted and the top three was: 1. Alexander Nevsky, 2. Pjotr Stolypin, 3. Josif Stalin. Plus some damn poll they had recently where 54% out of 1600 people had a positive view of Stalin.
(13% negative)
At the very least there are people that have some sympathies brewing toward that man.
To a large extent, yes, but not to the extent that you imply (certainly not to the extent of Hitler or even Goering in Germany), and this is before we get onto things like the Baltic states not being sovereign nations between 1919 and 1940 (which is the official stance of the Soviet government).
Soviet protest, not Russian protest. The title is misleading: the #1 victim of soviet genocide is Russian people, and those who dare to justify communism are either mentally retarded or simply criminals.
It would be strange to say about a person dying from cancer, that in all other respects he is completely healthy, and that he 1) does not suffer from cold 2) his blood pressure is normal 3) his cholesterol levels are better than those of an average person.
...besides, these 1-2-3 are also moot points: 1) I do remember cases of racism in Kazakhstan in soviet times 2) The criminality was much higher, in terms of murders, the state being the main murderer and 3) it's just the clean-up mechanism was much more efficient. Just look what happened to all those WWII invalids (w/o legs, arms, etc.). They were all shipped by truckloads to Valaam, so that they "do not, by their look, cause disturbance on the streets of soviet cities". That's the answer.
Sorry, but i can not agree with you.. as far as i know, a temr "vor v zakone" begin in soviet times.. as far as i know, all nowdays jails in Russia were build in soviet times (cuz it was needed i guess), and believe me, if you werent russian nationality its was much harder to even exsist in Baltic States.
1) Erm.... The reason there was no racism in Soviet Russia was because there was nobody left to be racist about. They had all been mass murdered or sent to gulags to die slowly. Unless they agreed to play slaves.
2) In USSR criminal activity statistics were low, because you got only the ones the authorities give you. You know, in North Korea everything is fine, too.
3) Yeah, cos they died or were killed.
And now same goes on. Orchestra leder, Signor Putin
1) are you referring to some specific facts or just making it up as you write? Did you know that Soviet ruble had "One Ruble" written on it in all the languages used in the USSR?
3) Have you been to Russia? From your comments it seems that you are under the impression that human immediately dies after he enters Russian territory. Hang on there is a name for that: russophobia.
1) Yes. Writing on a bill in different languages hardly makes up for decimating ethnical minorities.
3) Yes. I have been to both Soviet Union and Russia. I have also seen Estonia during Soviet Union and several times after that, and the difference in standard of living is staggering.
There is no phobia. As they have learned the hard way when countless times trying to steal our land. Once they succeeded for about a 100 year period. I don't blame Swedes for being shit scared and running, though.
Post Scriptum: It goes without saying that you are not an Estonian despite your profile, but rather a Russian living in Estonia on their grace.
I suggest you read some of Sofi Oksanen's books. Fictional, but based on fact. Or if you really are a true Estonian, then you are what we call here Kuusinen's or Bäckman's boys. Which is even worse. A honest and brave enemy you can respect. A cowardly traitor, never.
1. I was born here. Despite that I am being striped of citizenship by the current Estonian law. But I bet you thought that we just came here, eg. immigrants. If so, well keep on reading Oksonen's books.
2. SU has been teaching Estonians their own language for 50 years, building almost all of today schools in Estonia. Most of important things in Estonia that people use everyday were built by SU. I never heard a word of grace from them for that.
2. Part of that might be due to the fact that the USSR tried to stamp down on the Estonian identity HARD (for instance, Estonian was banned during the occupations from 1940-41 and from 1945-58), and even after that, dissent was never treated kindly (for instance, the persecution of veterans from the war of Independence and a ban on all books related to that).
It might not be fair that all of the USSR's contributions are ignored, but part of that comes from the bad vastly outnumbering the good.
Occupation was never legally proved. It is the first time that I hear that Estonian was banned wanna show me some sources? What bad exactly are you referring to? Can you make a list and we start from there?
1) How were ethnic minorities discriminated (I think you meant that when you wrote "decimating")? Please write the examples of discrimination so I can bust those myths one by one.
Anyway, do you know that Russian minority is being discriminated in Estonia now, in 2009 not 50 years ago?
1) According to what sources one uses, Stalin Purges got killed 20-60 million Soviet citizens. Many of them competent officers who might have avoided the massacre of Nordic winter warfare. Many were ethnical minorities who were forcibly "replaced". You have a problem admitting that?
I know all about Estonia as a neighbour can. You take a language test hat is fairly easy, and you get citizenship. If you mean personal attitude of Estonians to Russian oppressors for decades, look into the mirror.
1) Let's imagine that being true. Does that give you the right to blame all Russian people for that? Do we have to suffer forever for something that Stalin did? Are you going to hate all us for that?
You see I was born in Tallinn and so was a guy next door but the difference between us is that his parents were in Estonia before 1940. So he doesn't have to pass any exams. Is it my fault that my parents were not born here? So it's just a way to separate Russians.
1. I cannot speak for any but myself, but I will say that I don't. The issue is that some people (Putin being only the most obvious) like to pretend that various things like the deportations of the Estonians and many other ethnic minorities never happened, and sadly many Russians (though by no means all or even the majority) seem to agree with them (to put this in perspective, how would anyone like it if most of the US remained insistent on the fiction of the Manifest destiny being justified?)/
First I must ask you if you really think Estonians wanted to be an occupied country instead of a sovereign state?
No, I do not blame all Russian people for the atrocities Russia and Soviet Union have done as a state. I have many Russian friends who are ok and hate the dystopy.
Yes, we are gonna hate Russia as a state (not Russian individuals) until they right the wrongs they've done or at least humbly apologise. Start with the latter, and we'll see.
Estonia joined SU voluntary by issuing a petition to SU on 21.07.1940 stating the will to join SU. Estonia was never occupied. You ask this question in 2009 and it sounds reasonable now, but do you realize that in 1940 the world realities were completely different and plenty of Estonians saw this as a salvation from inevitable death (III Reich). Can you finally name those wrongs?
Not by the individual Russians living in there as much as by the Soviet system that oppressed also Russians themselves, and I feel sorry about that for them, too.
I was perhaps not clear enough in that. It wasn't as bad as in DDR or Hungary or Chekoslovakia. However, it was quite clear that Estonians generally wanted their freedom and independence very much. It is regrettabble but understandable some do not like Russians as individuals. This clip, however is a SOVIET story.
"Not by the individual Russians" , "It is regrettabble but understandable..." - taken from your profile : "just to piss off Russians for being assholes" - so you do hate Russians or SU? Well, like I said: Russophobia. Open your mind, mate.
As I explained, Russians in Finnish use may refer both to decent Russians, or those who act like nashis and their ilk who revise history and are generally obnoxious and hate and ridicule everyone who is not a "pure" Rodinan. I think it is needless to say which I meant in my profile.
All my honest Russian immigrant neighbours are nice people, most young families with kids who play with Finnish kids with no prejudices. They are welcome, as any other immigrant who behaves.
BTW, thanks for reminding me about a Russian easily misunderstanding my intent in my profile. I'll fix it to avoid further misunderstandings.
And BTW, red VALPO was nothing but an extension of KGB (then NKGB but Cheka all the same), thus traitors. So please don't try to come and tell me how they treated weaker neighbours then. If you really think Estonian people wanted to be occupied and stolen by USSR, why there are such movies as Nimed marmortahvlil, and why they agree with their message?
"VALPO" - can we stay on point? What has VALPO to do with anything?
1.We have already established that occupation never happened.
2. "why there are such movies..." - money is the answer, just like Soviet Story it was sponsored. Do you know that producers of "NM" are shooting a horror movie for Russian market at the moment. They are for hire.
3. "agree with their message" - because they are brainwashed by (USA sponsored) government. And books like Oksonen's and Laar's.
1) No. You have not established anything to that degree.Signed? So was the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty where USSR broke the Tarto peace treaty and non-aggression treaty. That's what treaties were worth to it.
2) Of course. They are professional artists. So are all document makers. Also Russians.
3) Thinking all who criticise actions of USSR and Russia because they are "brainwashed" by devilish USA is pitiful. Let me guess, you haven't even read Oksanen's books like Bäckman and his thugs.
2) To clarify before you jump on that. All people who make movies and / or documents are professionals who get their living from their job. Point is, that has nothing to do whether the production is based on fact, dramatised fact (NM), or fiction. Are you saying movies like Shchindler's List, Der Untergang, Dersu Uzala, Potemkin, and Alexander Nevsky were not based on then known history, although filmed as drama?
There is a vast difference between being based on fact form history and showing the truth. Any historical fact can be turned around which ever way they want on screen.
In a manner of speaking you are right. In a manner of speaking you are wrong. And you just yourself explained why.
Okay, if you're honest and actually are a Russian Estonian, you must have seen more in situ than me. What me and my parents and family have seen, however, is known by me very intimately.
Neither of these credentials mean anything in your favour, as we have Finns who are liars and traitors and revise history, too. Like Bäckman and SAFKA guys. And Kuusinen. They are even worse as they do it on purpose, not out of ignorance.
1) Oh I see you are one of those who haven't even look into MRP and think that it's a secret document where SU and Germany divided Europe, and agreed to conquer it. Is that right?
3)Did I say "devilish"? Pitiful is someone who is brainwashed. Of course I haven't read anything from Oskanen. Have you read any of Dyukov's?
To hell with communism and those whom created it
whiteguy212006 4 months ago
Commies are f..king killers...
ukrainietis57 4 months ago
@ukrainietis57 How they are killers? Tell, me.
realIBeliX 1 month ago
@realIBeliX cause killing is essential in communism to keep and maintain power.
lordnocts 1 month ago
@lordnocts Dont talk your empty mantras about what you dont know. I bet you dont even know what is real communism.
realIBeliX 1 month ago
@realIBeliX O yea and you do random man commenting on you tube. I know the fundamentals ideals idiology and history of communism.
lordnocts 1 month ago
@lordnocts Okay, then answer me, who was first communist ever?
realIBeliX 1 month ago
@lordnocts If your asking for the first communist leader then its Vladimir Lenin if your asking for the first human being that thought of it then that very very debatable.
lordnocts 1 month ago
@lordnocts Tell me. I need actual facts, give me them or you gonna still feed me with your empty bumbling?
realIBeliX 1 month ago
@realIBeliX What how am i going to tell you something no one knows. Its debatable some people think the first communists came from Rome while others believe the first were the Russians.
lordnocts 1 month ago
@wptransform You sir are a dity fucking nolife redneck :3
PS3MatureGames 6 months ago
u forgot Georgia
gdiogliidze 9 months ago
There have been dozens of documentaries about Stalin's terror yet none have ever incited Russians as strongly as the Soviet Story. Why is this? Has Edvins Snore, who isn’t even a historian, truly uncovered something real historians had missed? If he did I certainly haven't seen any evidence for it, except comparisons of Nazi/Soviet propaganda posters, the pinnacle of Snore's analysis.
A more likely possibility is that SS is a DISGUSTING film that has little to do with actual historical facts.
JD12ish 11 months ago
@JD12ish i guess the real reason why this exact movie got so strong reaction from officiol russia is the level this film reached (i mean EU parliament) and also most likely there would not be so strong reaction if this movie wouldn't be made by best russian mockumentary technology -i mean i can see same type products turning on any Ru TV chanell -offcourse it's propoganda -but still it's russian own medicine
ymydy4 10 months ago
@ymydy4 Though you make a nice point and I appreciate you recognizing this film for what it is, I have to disagree. The making of the Soviet Story was sponsored by the UEN Group, a collection of conservative, right wing political parties from within the EU parliament (members of which even appear in the SS).
That is also why it is perfectly legal to distribute SS over the internet, no doubt to “educate” as many people as possible.
If you don’t believe me look it up yourself.
JD12ish 10 months ago
@ymydy4 So a film that was paid for by the Right just happens to equate Socialism to Nazism and utterly vilifies Russians, both popular topics for members of the UEN Group.What a FANTASTIC coincidence!
Edvins Snore, author of the Soviet Story, is not a historian. In fact, he doesn't know the first thing about scholarly history or care about its most important consideration, namely OBJECTIVITY. Instead, according to his rather short CV, Snore is a "master of political science", whatever that is.
JD12ish 10 months ago
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@JD12ish "film that was paid for by the Right just happens to equate Socialism to Nazism" !false! -more correct: film was made to show that Soviet regime as it's crimes prove it is as disgusting as Nazi Germany
ymydy4 10 months ago
@ymydy4 I am not Russian, I don’t understand the language and I certainly can’t read Cyrillic. I have therefore never seen any such mockumentaries though I have no doubt they exist and that they try to pervert history in their own way. But this particular film was shown in my country, all over Europe and even in the US where the far-right Republicans LOVED it (Beck&Co). Under the comments of the numerous YouTube vids you can even find neo-Nazis praising this film for “exposing the truth”.
JD12ish 10 months ago
@JD12ish i do understand russian as good as my native language and must say sometimes it just getting me sick when i see these modern russian agitprop pieces and in this case i m glad that russians got to swallow the same bitter taste of black and white history -only good thing this movie did was that first time i've seen loud discussion about equality sign between 2 monster regimes -while i may dislike the way it's done i support the purpose because soviet crimes should be judged the same way
ymydy4 10 months ago
@JD12ish so can you explain then "with historical facts'' why Germany and the soviets both started the WW2 as aggressors by both invading poland and having the ribbentrop-molotov non-aggression pact sealed a couple of weeks before??
fisichella78 5 months ago
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MissGaIaxy 1 year ago
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I am Russian ,and I want to say ,that Stalin is a murderer and bloody bastard.
MissGaIaxy 1 year ago 4
I can only laugh for those people stories. But we cant blaim they because its normal that commies missing over 50 % for they brains. These people are great example how stupid people commies are, only where they are good is make pathetic stories.
Nordost44 1 year ago
EVIL, MAN-EATING COMMUNISTS!!! THANK GOD CAPITALISM SAVED THE WORLD!! iraq,palestine,afghanistan,iran,vietnam,MILLIONS OF CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA,destruction of planet earth.......they are minor mistakes,capitalism is perfect!!SHUT THE FUCK UP AND CONSUME!!!!
NOpsrn 1 year ago
@NOpsrn Shut Up son of bitch Typikal Impirialst Dog No Maners
Marshall1816 1 year ago
@Marshall1816 you 've got to be kidding me,right?? have you ever heard of the word "irony"??
NOpsrn 1 year ago
@NOpsrn Very funny
Marshall1816 1 year ago
@NOpsrn the system is mixed economy not capitalism capitalism only exists in third world countrys and has higher death toll and worser dictators like cartels STOP MISINFORMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cooks1234 9 months ago
Wish you could put some english subs on.
kjakobsen 1 year ago
Like nazi Germany, Russia has it's deniers, the deniers of The Communist Holocaust. According to Rudolph J Rummel, that after the Korean War dedicated the rest of his life to the research on murderous / democidal regimes, communist dictatorships murdered 148 million human beings in the 20th century, while Nazi Germany murdered 21 million -i.e., in numbers, communist regimes was 7 times more murderous than nazi Germany!
maganz 1 year ago
@maganz You know, if you take the number of people murdered by the Nazis and divide it by 3, then take the square root of that and plot it on a logarithmic scale, you get the average IQ of YouTube users commenting on the Soviet Story.
However, if you take the number of people killed by Communist regimes, log it, add five, multiply by six, then multiply by zero and add 7 and you get the number of days in a single week. Coincidence? I think Not!
JD12ish 11 months ago
By the way. The news reader Polttila. Her mother is a german. :D
ss90ss444 1 year ago
Too bad we have freedom of speech here. A rigth these kind of assholes want to take away from other humans.
Russian estonians treated badly? Shiit if estonians treated the russian occupiers same way their ancestors treated the estonian civilians after WW2 there would be none of these shitheads left in Estonia.
You either speak the local language and support the local culture or than you get the fuck back to your beloved motherwhore Russia.
ss90ss444 1 year ago 3
On 1940 during Battle of Britain 5/6 of highoctane fuel for Luftwaffe was from USSR.
On 1940 USSR and III Reich were allies. They cooperated friendly against Great Britain, France, Norway and Poland.
cashanca 1 year ago
russian(serbian) flag in estonia, as a protest? It`s about USSR not Russia(serbia).
Aeoaye 1 year ago
what kind of a stupid fag do you have to be so that you could feel the right to ignore such a part of history? ask majority of russian politics, historians or even civilians...
LithuanianMC 1 year ago
What the fuck, that bustard doesnt even know who made the film, fuck those fuckin pigs, its Latvian film not Estonian. The man who made this film was soon shot. Watch the movie, cause thats the truth, my family had to go all thru it.
GrubiBalvan 1 year ago 6
What the fuck, that bustard doesnt even know who made the film, fuck those fuckin pigs, its Latvian film not Estonian. The man who made this film was soon shot. Watch the movie, cause thats the truth, my family had to go all thru it.
GrubiBalvan 1 year ago
@GrubiBalva really what happened to them
ceaser630 1 year ago
Lol. How did you figure that out? Mine is a direct response to cyperrate's post below AND keeping to topic. So, how an earth it can be deemed as a spam?
You're wrong, whoever you are. AND you KNOW it.
BTW - we ARE what we think; wonder what are your thoughts, and wonder who's pulling strings in your constitution - spirit of Stalin...
Will be marked as spam - well, at any given time we WILL do, and CANNOT but do except that, which is topmost in our hearts.
Go ahead, make my day.
obuBBubo 1 year ago
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"Well may be it has something to do with the fact that Stalin is nowhere near to Hitler when it comes to being blood thirsty dictators." (cyberratte)
Yeah, he was a lot worse ACTUALLY.
Death by gas was merciful in comparison to his starving to death (agony of weeks) SIX MILLION Ukranians.
Executing 90% of his own generals, 80% of colonels, 37 000 Karelians; his terror campaigns and the rest makes him far worse than Hitler.
BOTH were EVIL devils incarnate beyond any defending.
obuBBubo 1 year ago 5
Finland,Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania,Poland,Ukrain knows the best how comie propoganda works
AnticomunistaAlerta 2 years ago 51
they should protest. the documentary was nothing but half truths and lies. it misquotes marx and engels and it exaggerates the collaboration between the nazis and soviets
luxfero 2 years ago
On the last charge, I agree (though not because it says anything WRONG, it just took it out of context by not mentioning things like the Spanish Civil War and the buildup to Barbarossa).
However, compared to most Putin-approved documentaries, it is practically SPARKLINGLY accurate.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
No it's not. It is clearly one-sided which is not what a documentary should be. It also uses false imaging and video manipulation. I can give you some examples if you like. Besides to which "Putin-approved" documentaries are you referring to?
cyberrate 2 years ago
"It is clearly one-sided which is not what a documentary should be."
Depends on whether we are talking about a Documentary (which is literally more or less just a type of film) or an ideal documentary (in which case I agree). However, while it certainly is imperfect as a documentary, I have seen fairly little that was objectively wrong (as opposed to blown out of proportion).
As for false imaging and manipulation, I would like to know where, and whether that changes the nature of a picture.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Well it obviously does, you see the western public's opinion on SU is based mostly on films like that, "Soviet story" is the film that openly criticizing SU and uses false evidence to support it's idea. And you are saying that it's ok because we know the nature of the picture, a nature which we have from films like that?
Besides you wrote "SPARKLINGLY accurate"
cyberrate 2 years ago
As a more general comment this is the tension that I get often by SU critics and Russophobes: "we cant prove anything, we use false evidence, but come one everyone knows that it's truth". Well the truth is based on a popular opinion which is being implied on us by biased Western Media.
cyberrate 2 years ago
"I can give you some examples if you like."
Please. Much appreciated.
As for the "Putin-approved" issues, the most obvious example would actually be a textbook (the infamous "A History of Modern Russia 1945-200? (I forget the later year)", which conveniently either does not mention or ignores the ethnic cleansings in Eastern Europe after WWII, and the Def. Ministry paper blaming Poland for WWII.
Actual documentaries I cannot remember of the top of my head, but I will get back to you on.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Ok the documents busting the Soviet Story are mostly in Russian so I hope you do understand it. I'm sending you the link to the document via PM. If you don't read Russian you can at least see the picture on page 25 of that document.
What ethnic cleansing do you refer to? Deportations? I have been saying it all along deportation is very overrated as a punishment because unlike gas chamber it's not the end of your life, most people actually survived the deportations. I'm not justifying them tho.
cyberrate 2 years ago
dont mind cyberrate. having read his comments and views in various posts - it is clear:
a) he is on kremlins payroll
b) he is a complete fool
c) he has no education whatsoever
kalx007 2 years ago
Kremlin must have been paying me peanuts because I still have to work on my day job. I was waiting for that to rise actually, anyone who says anything bad about Estonian government and tries to protect Russian minority rights, is clearly on Kremlin payroll, way to go mate! God bless Main Stream Media!
cyberrate 2 years ago
fail.
anyone who calls estonians fascists, dosent recognize soviet occupation, dosent know jack shit about deportations, murders etc in estonia, latvia, lithuania, poland, ukraine ......
IS one of those i mentioned.
kalx007 2 years ago
I never called all Estonians fascist, I'm saying that some people in Estonia [like in most countries] are trying to glorify Nazi movement (giving medals to SS officers, calenders) and government does nothing about it. Look, you failed to explain [let alone prove] any of the facts that you are on about. All that you have is an impression implied on you by Main Stream Media.
cyberrate 2 years ago
In all due honesty to the "SS" issue, they are by all accounts the Estonian SS, who were one the far cleaner and morally unstained units operating on the Eastern front, to the point where they were counted as separate from the rest of the SS (a move that wasn't opposed by Moscow), and indeed saw many of them used as GUARDS at Nuremberg (AGAIN the USSR did not object), which should tell you something.
I don't doubt that many have taken that too far, but that alone is not necessarily sinister.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
SS is an organization that was declared criminal in whole.
cyberrate 2 years ago
True, but the Baltic SS groups (including the Estonian SS) were explicitly stated as SEPARATE from the mainstream SS, and were accepted as such, as HICOG explicitly stated in 1950.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
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SS is an organization that was declared criminal in WHOLE. Which includes all the SS groups. And it makes no difference that American Military organization stated that they are "no threat to USA government" or something like that, they are still a members of criminal organization.
cyberrate 2 years ago
@cyberrate
wrong. as Bastogne Nuts said, Estonian SS was seperate from the main SS. Soviets acknowledged it, Americans acknowledged it - end of story.
you tell me now, who is glorifying nazism in estonia- facts now. if you cant provide any, please, dont provide any more nonsens.
kalx007 2 years ago
Maxim Reeva - redkij podonok.Ostal´noe-kommentarii.
zwerskij 2 years ago
when will them film the ''American Story'' or ''Georgebushilia: the Flower of George Bush''???
They are the true killers, not us...
alienwatcher93 2 years ago
Wonderful.
Any PROOF there, guv'ner?
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
most russians talk about other being the bad ones , though they refuse to learn the countries native language where ever it is ( latvia , estonia , poland , lithuania etc.. )
dav4ix 2 years ago 34
No ruSSians, no problems! :))
ruSSiaisshit2 2 years ago
Kurads are fags and always will be fags
drusha1 2 years ago
This is Latvian shit. We Estonians did not make this one. latvia = russia = shit
JohnNash82 2 years ago
STFU ur not real estonian if u talk like that.. choke and die..
kennijs 2 years ago
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Латвия, Украина, Польша, Молдова, Грузия и т.д. в один голос говорят о репрессиях, насилии, смертях... неужели это не заставляет задуматься...?!!
kostea13 2 years ago
But we protest against russian occupants !!! so what ??!! GO HOME bastards if something u don't like !!!!
latvianSS 2 years ago 4
What are they saying?
Commies are nothing but filth. They need to be exterminated.
ShaytanBozorg 2 years ago
Lol, that stupid man even don't know about what he is protesting - because it is a Latvian film, not Estonian!
wacac 2 years ago 4
wtf slow estonians have to do with this movie...we Latvians made it :D
snufffs 2 years ago 5
I'm Finnish, but subtitles would be nice :-) If you need my help, I'd be glad to lend a hand.
Sutemi 2 years ago
these..."antifascists" are actually stalinists..trying to justify the crimes of soviet regime...
they even say that deportation of children, older people and women to Siberia was a right thing to do..most of them died there..
they are themselves fascists, red fascists..
CrimesAgainstHumanit 2 years ago 7
Russian nationalists, they accuse certain countries for promoting fascism but I think they themselves are fascist. They are certainly not communists. They (Gorbachev administration) admitted Stalin's crimes during Glasnost. Now they are rejecting them again, or more precisely, justifying them. Russia will always be the same, whether it is czarist, communist or nationalist it makes no difference. Russia will stay the same.
IiiERT 2 years ago
Wanna show me the bit where they "rejecting" or "justifying" Stalin's crimes? Noone does that. They are just protesting against apartheid politics of Estonian government and rewriting history. Soviet Story is just a bunch of footage with voice overs, no real facts....
cyberrate 2 years ago
That wasn't in this movie. I was talking about the new official Russian interpretation of history. I hear it's been changed again and what they decided back in Gorbachev's time (Stalin = Bad guy) is no longer valid.
IiiERT 2 years ago
"no longer valid" - yeah, keep reading Oksonen. You might as well go and live in a cage somewhere, there is a new reality, the Russia is new, Stalin is officially condemned in Russia.
cyberrate 2 years ago
come on, cyberrate. you cant be so ignorant.
first of all - if you say that SU didnt want to occupy baltics. and it was a peace loving regime.... then why the hell did it attack finland and poland?
"there is a small bit of land called baltics - which is filled with friends of soviet union and who want large amount of their people to be deported and imprisoned in order to let foreign people to resettle on their lands." where is the logic ?
kalx007 2 years ago
I see the question you want to ask, you are doubtful that Baltic countries wanted to join SU, and it seems a reasonable question in 2009 but in 1939-40 everyone in Europe was afraid of Hitler, and SU has been made a monster only recently. Besides Soviet propaganda promised many good things.
P.S. it was not large amount of people deported (22-25 k), and even less imprisoned.
cyberrate 2 years ago
"you are doubtful that Baltic countries wanted to join SU,"
Since I have seen histories of the Baltic wars of independence, the pre-1940 border crossings by the Red Army, and the rampant deportations after the occupation, I would say NO KIDDING.
"but in 1939-40 everyone in Europe was afraid of Hitler,"
True, but that does not mean the Baltic states were absorbed consentingly.
"and SU has been made a monster only recently."
Any study of Lenin or Trotsky would refute that.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
"it was not large amount of people deported (22-25 k)"
Operation Priboi (87,000 deported) says otherwise.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
The number "close to 90 000" refers to 3 Baltic states. We were talking about Estonia only, number deported from Estonia is 22-25 000. Answer me this: do you know how many of those people were rehabilitated and sent back home in 1959?
cyberrate 2 years ago
"The number "close to 90 000" refers to 3 Baltic states."
Ah, I see. Sorry for the miscommunication, but even then I think that might be a bit low (doesn't count the 40-41 deportations).
"do you know how many of those people were rehabilitated and sent back home in 1959?"
I will take a random guess until I can find documentable proof, but add the deportations from 40-41, deduct deaths, and I would guess 60,000+.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
"Sorry for the miscommunication" - no problem, even tho its often used to mislead Estonian people, you see thanks to our MSM, who is using same technique most of them (just like you did) believe that 90 000 is the number deported from Estonia alone.
Well, I think you got the number wrong, but you see that deportation is not really a measure of extermination (like gas chamber). Besides vast majority of deported people were just moved to Siberia, they were not imprisoned or killed.
cyberrate 2 years ago
I see you are from Estonia so I will ask you this: don't you think that we are being manipulated? Don't you think that we have been set apart (Estonians and Russians) artificially by our government? I mean before 2007 we were more or less friends. And don't you find it odd that 3 out of 4 presidents of former USSR republics that have big problems with Russia came from north America?
cyberrate 2 years ago
we manipulated by estonian governmnt ? no.
average ivan from narva manipulated by russian propaganda ? yes.
i have watched "news" from RT and PBK - the amount of unthinkable crap they show there is unimaginable.
" estonia full of nazis" , "erna retk glorifies nazism", etc... i have many russian friends and co-workers - highly educated, really good people. every single one of them laughs at propaganda coming from the east.
kalx007 2 years ago
Well you clearly are manipulated by Estonian government and mainstream media. Let me know if you want me to explain you how exactly and why.
Can you show me the bit where RT says "Estonia is FULL of nazis?". And "erna retk" was an SS act, and celebrating it actually is glorifying nazism.
cyberrate 2 years ago
The Erna group was an Estonian volunteer group in FINNISH service. So unless you think the Finns (who, by the way, violently forced the Germans to evacuate Northern Finland at a considerable cost to their own) are "SS" or "Nazis", I think you might bee the one who is a bit confused.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Well did you read the Wikipedia article on Erna?
"The unit was formed to work in cooperation with Finnish and German military intelligence". Finns actually helped Nazis on several occasions (Siege of Leningrad), and Erna reported to Nazi German Military. So it's not me who is confused.
cyberrate 2 years ago
Yes, and your quote is amazing in its lack of power.
Simply put, if you know the history of the Erna group, that passage translates to "were trained partially using German instructors and held liaisons with other German units." Which is a far cry from being an SS unit. And as I stated before, Erna group reported to Helsinki first and foremost, and while the Germans could occasionally give orders, the Finns had the final say (and they often did override several orders from Berlin).
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
And as for the Seige of Leningrad, it is (if anything) a perfect example of the lengths that Finland went to stay OUT of German influence and to help them as little as possible, considering that:
A. Helsinki forbade German and Spanish troops from massing in Finnish-held Karelian Isthmus.
B. Finland halted all attacks on the North of Leningrad.
C. Finland forbade shelling Leningrad from their territory in the North.
and finally,
D. Finland forbade attacks upon the "lifeline" to Leningrad.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
2007... why was it bad to relocate remains of fallen soldiers buried next to a TRLOLLY STATION to military cemetary?
i mean, it is time for you to understand, that we, estonians are not your enemy. the real enemy who wants to set us apart walks among you - nashi: zirõk, linter, reva etc... they are not here for you, but for someone else. everyone who can think, knows where do these guys get orders and finance from ;) . cheers.
kalx007 2 years ago
You haven't answered my question.
Answer to your question: it was bad because it was done without preparations, without honor, and people were fulled, and before removing the monument Ansip said that there are "drunks and marauders burred there". I don't see how you don't understand it was the removing of the monument that set us apart. ...
cyberrate 2 years ago
(continued) Those people you mention are really poor, I don't think that they are financed from somewhere. But I also understand that no matter what I say you will blindly believe that anyone who supports Russian people's rights is financed and get orders from devilish Kremlin.
cyberrate 2 years ago
ie
/watch?v=T7_HXPMuw68
and as i said i have many russian friends and co-workers. i have asked them in a way, if they feel discriminated, or do they think that their rights have to be guarded by night watch... first they laughed, then they asked if im serious.
on the other hand, if people tear down estonian flags and threaten local estonian people in idavirumaa. during est-eng football match they wore eng supporters shirts. then i say it would be difficult to mix est-rus people there.
kalx007 2 years ago
T7_HXPMuw68 - yeah I have seen that, and it's truth. Erna was a part of SS it was reporting to Hitler, who killed millions of people and was systematically exterminating people based on their race/nationality. And this military game is allowed eg. supported by current active government of Estonia. About discrimination: Did you know that there are laws in Estonia that designed to separate Russians from Estonians and limit Russian people's rights? Need more info?
cyberrate 2 years ago
and also they show this .... ?
/watch?v=Lm4P2sPSlMs
lenin was responsible for murdering millions of russian people, and yet they allow this kind of nonsens to be aired. no wonder russian speaking estonians who watch this glorify soviet union, its deeds, and leaders.
add there acts against its own people by stalin - and you have to ask how is it even possible, that there is somebody who actually praises this regime....
kalx007 2 years ago
Mate, whether you like it or not SU is the reason why you are able to use internet, watch Estonian TV, fly airplanes and speak/read/write in your own language. Besides, it is a point of view of someone who is in opposition to official active government, it does not reflect the point of view of official RF. PS. Stalin is a criminal and this has been an official position of RF.
cyberrate 2 years ago
group erna sabotaged russian advance in estonia. doing so tens of thousands of estonian civilians managed to flee to the west. avoid "punishment squads" who raped and murdered their way accross estonia... while escaping onboard of civilian vessels red armys aiforce destroyed and sank many of them. killing thousands of refugees.
its like if i said that bronze soldier is a part of stalins criminal regime responsible for killing tens of millions innocent people.
WHICH LAWS ? EXAMPLES FAST !
kalx007 2 years ago
The first part of your message is rubbish. "punishment squads" is a product of imagination of sick, brainwashed people. If they raped and murdered where are the graves? Why isn't it documented?
Laws: current citizenship law says one should not get citizenship if his or her parents were not living in Estonia before 1940. And strangely enough about 90% of people whom this law affects are Russians. So it's just a trick to prevent Russians from voting. Which is a violation of our rights.
cyberrate 2 years ago
U mean "istrebitelʹnyĭ batalʹon" in WWII? There are documentations about this. There were certain orders for this and also Stalin did a broadcast about it over the radio. These squads were allowed to kill anyone without any court order. There were made certain more than 1800 people who were killed from these squads.
About Laws: i had a problem to get a citizenship because my grandparents were living in Siberia that time. Its difficult. Dont think the reason is Estonian gov.
sakutume 2 years ago
"without any court order" - what, there should be a court order to kill Nazis during the war?
Well, what is the reason then? Actually there is no difference what reason is behind this, the fact still stands: current Estonian law limits the rights of ethnic Russians. Apparently you are one of very little number of ethnic Estonians who fell into this category majority of which consists of Russians.
cyberrate 2 years ago
hi again )).... SU is the reason? When SU came then Estonia became a big prison camp; where people who were thinking wrong were tortured, shot, captured, massmurdered (Tartu, Kuressaare aso...) or deported. Estonians were blamed to cooperate with germans and because there was a big mistrust against estonians, the terror was quite awful.
sakutume 2 years ago 2
This is all BS. I think we have been through this. You cannot name single fact of mass murders of Estonian people by SU, can you? And even if you could that doesn't change the fact that most of (even today) infrastructure was built by SU. You are watching Estonian television through the TV tower that SU built and then left for people of Estonia.
cyberrate 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Don't you think that we have been set apart (Estonians and Russians) artificially by our government?"
Meh, possibly to an extent, but I would have to say not nearly to the extent Moscow did so.
"I mean before 2007 we were more or less friends."
Trade issues and even a few minor cyber attacks coupled with Putin's rhetoric indicates otherwise.
As for the "3 or 4 Presidents", I would like to see the definition of "Big Problem", seeing as we have
*Ukraine
* Baltic 3
* Turkmenistan
* Georgia
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Actually I read it from a newspaper and it was also in another documentary on TV some time ago. I hear Stalin is a hero again in the new nationalist Russia.
IiiERT 2 years ago
Well you saw brainwashing in progress, mate. Mass media want's us fighting, look for Ron Paul on youtube and see what he has to say about Russia. Russia is not nationalist. An never was. Unlike in Estonia it is not government policy to discriminate people based on their nationality. For example several ministers of RF are not of Russian nationality. How can it be nationalist. tbc.
cyberrate 2 years ago
kalx007 2 years ago
1. a) - WRONG! do you realize that most of Russian people who are being deprived of citizenship were born here? EXACTLY like you.
b) why is Russian not second official? 43% of people in Tallinn are Russian speakers.
c) We were studying Estonian culture in schools during soviet time.
About "punishment squads" - so let me get this straight: there are no documents and no evidence once or ever, but you somehow remember. Yeah, mate that's strong. Clear your mind, mate.
cyberrate 2 years ago
so... if you occupy another country. deport part of its native residents to siberia. settle your own people to its country.
(pre II ww about 4-5% of population were russians, after sovietisation there were almost 50% russians here).
and after country regained its independence you act suprised and ask why russian isnt second official language here, since here live so many russians ?
come again ?!
you had like 60 years to learn estonian, what the hell is this fuzz all about ???
kalx007 2 years ago
You are the one who is causing the fuzz. You asked me for examples remember? Estonia joined SU voluntarily and it did it clearly to defend it's people from advancing Hitler. But how is it my problem anyway? It doesn't matter how Russian people got here, it's not their fault what games dirty politicians are playing. Your relatives were victims of Stalin but it was 60 years ago. Who is going to protect my rights in now?
cyberrate 2 years ago
Isn't the United Russia party considered to be nationalist?
IiiERT 2 years ago
Well it may be considered to be so in Oksanen books mate, but certainly not in Russia. If you look at the list of it's leaders you will find that one of them (Shoigu) is ethnic Tuvan and another (Shaimiev) is Tatar, neither of which is Russian.
cyberrate 2 years ago
I haven't read any of her books.
Anyway, it's been centuries since the Central-Asian-, and Tatar Khanates. Haven't they assimilated by now?
Also: I wouldn't need anyone telling me whether United Russia is nationalist or not. If todays Russia seems nationalist, then basically they are.
Or would you say I'm being deceived by biased media?
IiiERT 2 years ago
No, I would say you are being ignorant. The country may seems nationalist to you, so be it. If you choose to believe in what you like to be truth, there is nothing anyone can do. But you can't argue with the fact that, unlike in Estonia, neo-nazis are being prosecuted everyday in Russia and get real punishments.
cyberrate 2 years ago
It's probably easier to be a nazi in Estonia than it is to be a communist. I'm guessing that since Estonia has such a negative view of their time with the USSR, they tend to generally dislike Russians too. Also they probably associate Russia with communism so I bet any "Pro-Russian" opinions are also seen as "Pro communist". And all anti-communists tend to be anti-Russian or otherwise nationalist, and vice versa.
IiiERT 2 years ago
(cont...) besides phrase "I hear Stalin is a hero again in the new nationalist Russia." is rubbish by it self since Stalin was not Russian him self. How can he be hero of Russian nationalists? What the hell are you on about?
cyberrate 2 years ago
i never said I remember punishment squads. but there are people living in estonia, who experienced it first hand. including many of my relatives ie 3 of my grandfathers brothers and 1 sister. 2 of my grandmothers sisters. and so on... and its just MY family.
so .... you acting as you were the only victim here, is inpropriate.
kalx007 2 years ago
Were your relatives brutally killed on sight by "punishment squads"? I'm sure they were not. I'm sure you are referring to them being deported to Siberia. Am I right?
cyberrate 2 years ago
no.... grandfathers 2 brothers (15 and 18) were shot next to their house on a field. much like grandmothers sisters - only they were shot while trying to flee to the woods. they were killed by advancing russian troops... tho they had no namesigns "punishment squad" on their forehead.
"Estonia joined SU voluntarily and it did it clearly to defend it's people from advancing Hitler." - - - thats where you have your facts wrong.
kalx007 2 years ago
Why were they running? Were they collaborating with Nazis? You know most Estonians where greeting Russian soldiers as they were advancing.
On 21.07.1940. Estonian parliament issued a petition to SU government asking to join SU. That's official.
cyberrate 2 years ago
actually it was 22.07.1940.... it took place also at 21.07.... but the meeting was cancelled before any decision...because Vares suggested from communist parties to have a local government.... but they threatened to kill him... so yes the decision was made next day... when the oppositon was braken... the wote was made while the parliament building was filled in and out of Red Army soldiers and NKVD agents...
sakutume 2 years ago
(also cont...)
Greatest Russian TV-show, a.k.a. "Имя Россия", same concept as "100 Greatest Britons". The people voted and the top three was: 1. Alexander Nevsky, 2. Pjotr Stolypin, 3. Josif Stalin. Plus some damn poll they had recently where 54% out of 1600 people had a positive view of Stalin.
(13% negative)
At the very least there are people that have some sympathies brewing toward that man.
IiiERT 2 years ago
"Stalin is officially condemned in Russia."
To a large extent, yes, but not to the extent that you imply (certainly not to the extent of Hitler or even Goering in Germany), and this is before we get onto things like the Baltic states not being sovereign nations between 1919 and 1940 (which is the official stance of the Soviet government).
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Well may be it has something to do with the fact that Stalin is nowhere near to Hitler when it comes to being blood thirsty dictators.
cyberrate 2 years ago
Muahaha! Maxim REVA. The cameraman has had some fun zooming on that in otherwise neutral news broadcast to give his or her opinion "discreetly".
That translates roughly to "Max CUNT".
Joonavainio 2 years ago
russians or soviets? ....
all rusians are not soviets, but all soviets are rusians..
and russia is that what is left from USSR.
latgalis144 2 years ago 2
Soviet protest, not Russian protest. The title is misleading: the #1 victim of soviet genocide is Russian people, and those who dare to justify communism are either mentally retarded or simply criminals.
mitekphoto 2 years ago 6
Maybe it wasn't good for Russia, but bring few facts.
1)In USSR there was no racism(even no possibility)
2)In USSR criminal activity was much less
3)There were less begars and homeless people in USSR times
Those are arguments for USSR. Just try to look at whole situation from different perspective and you wil find out many interesting and useful facts.
AlexeyFromRussia 2 years ago
It would be strange to say about a person dying from cancer, that in all other respects he is completely healthy, and that he 1) does not suffer from cold 2) his blood pressure is normal 3) his cholesterol levels are better than those of an average person.
mitekphoto 2 years ago 3
...besides, these 1-2-3 are also moot points: 1) I do remember cases of racism in Kazakhstan in soviet times 2) The criminality was much higher, in terms of murders, the state being the main murderer and 3) it's just the clean-up mechanism was much more efficient. Just look what happened to all those WWII invalids (w/o legs, arms, etc.). They were all shipped by truckloads to Valaam, so that they "do not, by their look, cause disturbance on the streets of soviet cities". That's the answer.
mitekphoto 2 years ago 6
Sorry, but i can not agree with you.. as far as i know, a temr "vor v zakone" begin in soviet times.. as far as i know, all nowdays jails in Russia were build in soviet times (cuz it was needed i guess), and believe me, if you werent russian nationality its was much harder to even exsist in Baltic States.
(sorry for my english grammar)
juokis 2 years ago 4
Now i look the USSR from my perspective;
1,There was no crimes,but every russian had steal something from us
2,There was no criminal activity,but there was no right to free speech too!
3,Theoretically,everyone was equal,but the commieasslickers(partymembers) were "equalabber"!
Sven1988fromHUN 2 years ago 3
1) Erm.... The reason there was no racism in Soviet Russia was because there was nobody left to be racist about. They had all been mass murdered or sent to gulags to die slowly. Unless they agreed to play slaves.
2) In USSR criminal activity statistics were low, because you got only the ones the authorities give you. You know, in North Korea everything is fine, too.
3) Yeah, cos they died or were killed.
And now same goes on. Orchestra leder, Signor Putin
Joonavainio 2 years ago 6
1) are you referring to some specific facts or just making it up as you write? Did you know that Soviet ruble had "One Ruble" written on it in all the languages used in the USSR?
3) Have you been to Russia? From your comments it seems that you are under the impression that human immediately dies after he enters Russian territory. Hang on there is a name for that: russophobia.
cyberrate 2 years ago
1) Yes. Writing on a bill in different languages hardly makes up for decimating ethnical minorities.
3) Yes. I have been to both Soviet Union and Russia. I have also seen Estonia during Soviet Union and several times after that, and the difference in standard of living is staggering.
There is no phobia. As they have learned the hard way when countless times trying to steal our land. Once they succeeded for about a 100 year period. I don't blame Swedes for being shit scared and running, though.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
Post Scriptum: It goes without saying that you are not an Estonian despite your profile, but rather a Russian living in Estonia on their grace.
I suggest you read some of Sofi Oksanen's books. Fictional, but based on fact. Or if you really are a true Estonian, then you are what we call here Kuusinen's or Bäckman's boys. Which is even worse. A honest and brave enemy you can respect. A cowardly traitor, never.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
"their grace" - this is rubbish.
1. I was born here. Despite that I am being striped of citizenship by the current Estonian law. But I bet you thought that we just came here, eg. immigrants. If so, well keep on reading Oksonen's books.
2. SU has been teaching Estonians their own language for 50 years, building almost all of today schools in Estonia. Most of important things in Estonia that people use everyday were built by SU. I never heard a word of grace from them for that.
cyberrate 2 years ago
2. Part of that might be due to the fact that the USSR tried to stamp down on the Estonian identity HARD (for instance, Estonian was banned during the occupations from 1940-41 and from 1945-58), and even after that, dissent was never treated kindly (for instance, the persecution of veterans from the war of Independence and a ban on all books related to that).
It might not be fair that all of the USSR's contributions are ignored, but part of that comes from the bad vastly outnumbering the good.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Occupation was never legally proved. It is the first time that I hear that Estonian was banned wanna show me some sources? What bad exactly are you referring to? Can you make a list and we start from there?
cyberrate 2 years ago
1) How were ethnic minorities discriminated (I think you meant that when you wrote "decimating")? Please write the examples of discrimination so I can bust those myths one by one.
Anyway, do you know that Russian minority is being discriminated in Estonia now, in 2009 not 50 years ago?
cyberrate 2 years ago
1) According to what sources one uses, Stalin Purges got killed 20-60 million Soviet citizens. Many of them competent officers who might have avoided the massacre of Nordic winter warfare. Many were ethnical minorities who were forcibly "replaced". You have a problem admitting that?
I know all about Estonia as a neighbour can. You take a language test hat is fairly easy, and you get citizenship. If you mean personal attitude of Estonians to Russian oppressors for decades, look into the mirror.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
1) Let's imagine that being true. Does that give you the right to blame all Russian people for that? Do we have to suffer forever for something that Stalin did? Are you going to hate all us for that?
You see I was born in Tallinn and so was a guy next door but the difference between us is that his parents were in Estonia before 1940. So he doesn't have to pass any exams. Is it my fault that my parents were not born here? So it's just a way to separate Russians.
cyberrate 2 years ago
1. I cannot speak for any but myself, but I will say that I don't. The issue is that some people (Putin being only the most obvious) like to pretend that various things like the deportations of the Estonians and many other ethnic minorities never happened, and sadly many Russians (though by no means all or even the majority) seem to agree with them (to put this in perspective, how would anyone like it if most of the US remained insistent on the fiction of the Manifest destiny being justified?)/
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Putin has recognized the deportations and Russian government apologized for the it.
cyberrate 2 years ago
Also, It was not merely Stalin.
BastogneNuts 2 years ago
Oppressors? How were Estonians oppressed by Russians? Names and dates please.
cyberrate 2 years ago
First I must ask you if you really think Estonians wanted to be an occupied country instead of a sovereign state?
No, I do not blame all Russian people for the atrocities Russia and Soviet Union have done as a state. I have many Russian friends who are ok and hate the dystopy.
Yes, we are gonna hate Russia as a state (not Russian individuals) until they right the wrongs they've done or at least humbly apologise. Start with the latter, and we'll see.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
Estonia joined SU voluntary by issuing a petition to SU on 21.07.1940 stating the will to join SU. Estonia was never occupied. You ask this question in 2009 and it sounds reasonable now, but do you realize that in 1940 the world realities were completely different and plenty of Estonians saw this as a salvation from inevitable death (III Reich). Can you finally name those wrongs?
cyberrate 2 years ago
Not by the individual Russians living in there as much as by the Soviet system that oppressed also Russians themselves, and I feel sorry about that for them, too.
I was perhaps not clear enough in that. It wasn't as bad as in DDR or Hungary or Chekoslovakia. However, it was quite clear that Estonians generally wanted their freedom and independence very much. It is regrettabble but understandable some do not like Russians as individuals. This clip, however is a SOVIET story.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
"Not by the individual Russians" , "It is regrettabble but understandable..." - taken from your profile : "just to piss off Russians for being assholes" - so you do hate Russians or SU? Well, like I said: Russophobia. Open your mind, mate.
cyberrate 2 years ago
As I explained, Russians in Finnish use may refer both to decent Russians, or those who act like nashis and their ilk who revise history and are generally obnoxious and hate and ridicule everyone who is not a "pure" Rodinan. I think it is needless to say which I meant in my profile.
All my honest Russian immigrant neighbours are nice people, most young families with kids who play with Finnish kids with no prejudices. They are welcome, as any other immigrant who behaves.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
BTW, thanks for reminding me about a Russian easily misunderstanding my intent in my profile. I'll fix it to avoid further misunderstandings.
And BTW, red VALPO was nothing but an extension of KGB (then NKGB but Cheka all the same), thus traitors. So please don't try to come and tell me how they treated weaker neighbours then. If you really think Estonian people wanted to be occupied and stolen by USSR, why there are such movies as Nimed marmortahvlil, and why they agree with their message?
Joonavainio 2 years ago
"VALPO" - can we stay on point? What has VALPO to do with anything?
1.We have already established that occupation never happened.
2. "why there are such movies..." - money is the answer, just like Soviet Story it was sponsored. Do you know that producers of "NM" are shooting a horror movie for Russian market at the moment. They are for hire.
3. "agree with their message" - because they are brainwashed by (USA sponsored) government. And books like Oksonen's and Laar's.
cyberrate 2 years ago
VALPO used as an example how USSR worked even on states which remained sovereign on paper.
There is no reason to assume they didn't treat a state they actually occupied worse, as there is proof I have seen and heard in person in situ.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
1) No. You have not established anything to that degree.Signed? So was the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty where USSR broke the Tarto peace treaty and non-aggression treaty. That's what treaties were worth to it.
2) Of course. They are professional artists. So are all document makers. Also Russians.
3) Thinking all who criticise actions of USSR and Russia because they are "brainwashed" by devilish USA is pitiful. Let me guess, you haven't even read Oksanen's books like Bäckman and his thugs.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
2) To clarify before you jump on that. All people who make movies and / or documents are professionals who get their living from their job. Point is, that has nothing to do whether the production is based on fact, dramatised fact (NM), or fiction. Are you saying movies like Shchindler's List, Der Untergang, Dersu Uzala, Potemkin, and Alexander Nevsky were not based on then known history, although filmed as drama?
Joonavainio 2 years ago
There is a vast difference between being based on fact form history and showing the truth. Any historical fact can be turned around which ever way they want on screen.
cyberrate 2 years ago
In a manner of speaking you are right. In a manner of speaking you are wrong. And you just yourself explained why.
Okay, if you're honest and actually are a Russian Estonian, you must have seen more in situ than me. What me and my parents and family have seen, however, is known by me very intimately.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
(cont)
Neither of these credentials mean anything in your favour, as we have Finns who are liars and traitors and revise history, too. Like Bäckman and SAFKA guys. And Kuusinen. They are even worse as they do it on purpose, not out of ignorance.
Joonavainio 2 years ago
Look, this is turning rather demagogic, and point of view thing. If you have something you want to say that's on point drop me a pm.
cyberrate 2 years ago
1) Oh I see you are one of those who haven't even look into MRP and think that it's a secret document where SU and Germany divided Europe, and agreed to conquer it. Is that right?
3)Did I say "devilish"? Pitiful is someone who is brainwashed. Of course I haven't read anything from Oskanen. Have you read any of Dyukov's?
cyberrate 2 years ago