Well, what are you suggesting? That there shouldn't be any prayer at all for a service? It's one thing for wanting freedom of religion, it's another when an atheist decides to become a Knight Templar demanding the world to give up religion for atheism.
@VicGeorge2K6 That's not what I am suggesting at all. As I indicated in the video my problem is non-believers being forced to participate. If they would release anyone who was not interested in prayer from formations with mandatory group prayer that would be a good start. If they would lead prayer at voluntary religious services in the chapels, that would be better. No one is saying that service members should not be able to pray, only that they should not be forced to.
As someone with dual citizenship between the USA and Israel, I would never bow to anything and you are not alone. Living with it daily, seeing the compulsions should be mandatory for those who want to proselytize. For example, maybe let them see the diversity of lunacy in Jerusalem for a few months and then see how many still "believe." I was done with nationalism a long time ago and those on the ground know who we serve, each other regardless of any diluted belief systems.
How can you be a Christian and be in the army? I thought "thou shall not kill" and love are important in Christianity. Doesn't hurting other people go completely against what Jesus taught?
I am a Chaplain Assistant in the USAF. I also happen to be an Atheist. I never cared much for prayer in a public setting, but for a different reason. For me it was a personal discomfort. I commended a chaplain once for personalizing the prayer as though he was the only one praying and everyone else was just observing. Until I watched this video, I didn't realize that the public image results in making us all look like religious soldiers. I will be bringing this up the chain. Thanks
Separating church & state is not anti-religion, it's religious neutrality - It's not fair to have one ceremony when you have other religious people and atheists in the bunch. Everyone should be treated the same and since it's not practical to have many ceremonies, there should be none.
Besides if 'christians' read the bible; it is forbidden to pray in public as it leads to religious poseurs (Mt 6:5), that's why Christians are instructed to pray in solitude with God as their witness. (Mt 6:6)
If Christians actually decided read all bible without glossing over repulsive passages, by the time they reached the end, most of them would be seriously doubting validity of their beliefs. Then, if apologetic pastors didnt get to them in time to reinforce brainwashing, many more would become atheists.
You can always pick an Atheists in combat. They do not believe there is a God protecting them, they know they have one life to give for service and no afterlife. So they are the ones who take cover and jump in foxholes because they have no deity protecting them.
i might sound naive,i cant say for others but when i die i would never want anyone to "bow"down their heads for me and pray for me,i would feel insulted.I would rather have them celebrate my life and remember me and just bury me or something.
i believe that every soldiers funeral should be personalized he should write down how he would like to be remembered in the horrible event of his death,but thats just me
Out of the military now, but in regards to my eventual death,
I have told my wife I am to be cremated and, if at all possible, have the asshes mixed with the gunpowerder of sky rockets, to be fired out over the ocean at midnight as the cliamx of a party with a live band.
I have yet to get the army (gotta get through med school first XD) but I am a dedicated Atheist. While I have no right to say it yet I firmly aspire to have the courage to hold to my lack of belief until the very end. I respect the beliefs of others but think few things are more disrespectful to those who risk their lives then to force them to do things like this.
The old 'No Atheists in foxholes' schtik spits on every atheist who ever was in a foxhole. Though the british army = less prayer.
Prayer should be handled the same as Kegel exercises; one doesn't go around announcing when its being done (although kegels actually achieve something).
I see this as coming to a head some time in the future as the percentage of atheists and other belief systems such as Wiccans and Muslims continues to grow. I appreciate your service and wish you the best of luck.
I never bowed my head in the service. No one calls you on it because all their heads are bowed. In many ways you get more respect for standing our ground and that you fight knowing there's no after life
Well, I think that including a specifically Christian religious element into military ceremonies can only cause divisions among servicemen, esp. in light of harassment or even outright persecution of servicemen by extremist Christian elements in the armed services recently. It couldn't be difficult to for military ceremonies to be more inclusive--& considering the distinguished service of non-Christian Native & Asian servicemen, should have done long ago!
While I find the idea of chaplains being payed by the government iffy at best. I can understand it. Especially in the army, where I think the vast majority believe in a god, and the christian one at that. I can forgive them.
But it should be optional. You should be able to opt out. I am sure there are some islamic followers in the US army, Do they make them stand there aswell?
Which does answer and age old saying, that there are no atheists in a fox hole, when quite clearly there are. To me it seems like the obedience that religion has produced over the centuries in military, has become a recipe for conformity.
What would happen if you did not bow your head or did not close your eyes, would you be brought up on any kind of charge for disobeying orders like disrespecting the corp?
Good question. Eventually, I hope the military will drop that practice.
I wonder if anyone has ever filed a complaint stating that he was commanded by a superior officer, (the chaplain), to demonstrate submission to a deity he does not believe in, and is it legal for such an order to be given?
Perhaps it will take someone disobeying that order for the issue to become important enough for the military to deal with. They MUST declare it as voluntary, with NO reprisals allowed.
Atheists should be allowed not to participate, or better still, the religious rituals should be saved until after the formal ceremony and be conducted only amongst those who voluntarily want to be part of it.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
well you did swear to obey the orders of officers appointed over you. so suck it up and do what the major said. If you don't like the christian soldiers of the US then don't join or get out as quick as you can. You did volunteer for it, its not like they forced you to join.
@recyard12x Actually, in the oath of appointment as a warrant officer one swears to obey the "lawful orders of those appointed over me"- look it up. It is not legal to order a Soldier to pray. To do so violates the supreme law of the land: that Constitution, which guarantees all Americans freedom of religious thought and expression, even those who fight to secure these freedoms. No, especially them.
@jacobreinvented They are not ordering you to pray. I've sworn that oath before, i know how it goes. I also know that they only time they have a invocation is during a big ceremony, In my 20 years If I made it to 10 ceremonies that had a invocation, that would be a generous guess. Lastly the ceremony is not for you, Its for the one or two people up on the center stage. Its their ceremony if they want a invocation, they can have one. From your video I really doubt you served.
@recyard12x Wrong on all counts. I have seen invocations at every school graduation, change of command, dining in, dining out, BN level Hail and farewell I have ever been to, not to mention the odd chaplain visit to our FOB etc. I probably heard 10 in my first 2 years. The ceremony is not for the two people center stage, Customs and Courtesies makes it clear that ceremonies build Esprit de Corps among all Soldiers present. If they want an invocation atheists should not be forced to attend.
@recyard12x I am currently stationed in the 12th Combat Aviation Regiment, Katterbach, Germany, am in my 17th year of consecutive active service, spent 12 years enlisted Tank Crewman (19K) making it to E-7 before being appointed a warrant officer and attending flight school. I have been deployed 4 times and done as much to serve my country as anyone I know. My Officer Record Brief (with SSN blocked out) is available by email upon request. There are indeed atheists in foxholes.
@jacobreinvented I was in the United States Air Force probably the most Evangelical Christianized branch of the US Military.Anyway, in basic training we were told going to church on Sundays was mandatory the 1st Sunday & optional after that. So, I & 3 others out of 70-80 did not go to church on Sundays so we were forced to clean the latrine & day room. My TI (Technical Instructor USAF) made the comment that cleaning his shitter was too good for the godless...That is when I woke up to REALITY!
@Viracocha711 Yeah, (sigh) I remember being placed on cleaning detail if I did not attend chapel while in Warrant Officer Candidate School as well. I am ashamed to say I gave in and took my butt to chapel after that.
@jacobreinvented I would not be ashamed as I think more folks would not have gone to church if they did not have to do shitty work instead. We just decided the first week we were not in church to get to work & bust our asses & get done so we could have some free time before others got back from church...And it worked. Thanks for serving! Good luck & take care!
@recyard12x The point is that military members did not join the United States Christian Military. They join a branch that claims to give equal reights to everyone. The problem is that during ceremonies we are force fed Christian scripture and prayer thanking a lord that not everyone believes in. This is not an issue of hating christians it is a issue of equal rights. Ahtiests, buddists, muslims and any other belief system are all equally mistreated with this ritual.
@Iamnotabeliever The military never claimed to give equal rights to everyone. Its accepted when you join you have to give up some of your rights. And I can not recall ever hearing the word god, or amen at any invocation. And if your that easily offended, then don't join. I mean really, your ok with being asked to kill people, and your ok with actually killing other human beings, but OMG you can't bow your head for a non denomination ceremony? Its not a ritual, get over yourself.
@recyard12x The US Army has an equal opportunity program and does claim to give equal rights to all Soldiers under military law. I have most certainly heard the words god and amen many times in chaplains invocations over my 17 years of service, first as a senior NCO and then as a warrant officer. It is not about being offended, it is about illegally forcing people to participate in primitive religious rituals. I am, for example, not asked to kill people. Medevac pilots don't kill people.
@recyard12x The military does claim to give everyone equal rights. The rights you are talking about giving up are not the same thing. Those equal rights are posted in every commanders equal opportunity statement at eery unit. Your claim that you have never heard the words god or amen in any inocation is also completely untrue. The arguement about me being okay with killing is completely irrelevant. Why would we make prayers to a religion of "thou shall not kill" and then march into battle?
@LegendaryAsshole Sure they can, they can order you to go kill someone, they can order you to go die in a suicide mission. You have freedom as speech as well, but see how far that gets you in the military. Try mocking the president or your CO and see what happens. The UCMJ is the priority, the constitution is what they protect and defend, not follow. He volunteered to do it no one forced him to join, so he needs to honor his oath and obey the order to bow his head when given.
I too have taken part in these things however, not even once have I bowed my head I was asked why not I say I am not about to bow my head to your god because you out rank me sorry I have respect for you I just don't have that much respect for you.
I am also a member of our military service. I will be having a retirement ceremony in the near future and at that point I will not have a chaplain give an invocation. I a, looking forward to the reaction.
I am also a member of our military service. I will be having a retirement ceremony in the near future and at that point I will not have a chaplain give in invocation. I a, looking forward to the reaction.
I had compulsory religion and worshiping all my school years in South Africa, now I live in Italy, we still have compulsory crucifixes in every classroom, state office, courtrooms and hospitals.
When I'm sick or when I will be dieing I will have a compulsory crucifix above my head.
With the last strength I have in my body before i die, I will destroy the crucifix in front of the priest that I have no way of avoiding his loving attention.
I know what you mean about that silent bond. I felt it in catholic school a lot.
Often times I admit not wanting to say things that might insult a soldier, due to their service, sacrifices, etc.. but I wonder how many there are who have a problem with compulsory religious gestures.
I come from a military family... so I understand what is being said. This is nothing less than compulsory participation in a religious perspective. It seems to me... that this is a clear violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution... excellent correlation with differing faith systems prayers... well done.
Well, what are you suggesting? That there shouldn't be any prayer at all for a service? It's one thing for wanting freedom of religion, it's another when an atheist decides to become a Knight Templar demanding the world to give up religion for atheism.
VicGeorge2K6 6 days ago
@VicGeorge2K6 That's not what I am suggesting at all. As I indicated in the video my problem is non-believers being forced to participate. If they would release anyone who was not interested in prayer from formations with mandatory group prayer that would be a good start. If they would lead prayer at voluntary religious services in the chapels, that would be better. No one is saying that service members should not be able to pray, only that they should not be forced to.
jacobreinvented 6 days ago
As someone with dual citizenship between the USA and Israel, I would never bow to anything and you are not alone. Living with it daily, seeing the compulsions should be mandatory for those who want to proselytize. For example, maybe let them see the diversity of lunacy in Jerusalem for a few months and then see how many still "believe." I was done with nationalism a long time ago and those on the ground know who we serve, each other regardless of any diluted belief systems.
jonny7748 1 month ago
How can you be a Christian and be in the army? I thought "thou shall not kill" and love are important in Christianity. Doesn't hurting other people go completely against what Jesus taught?
AmokBR 1 month ago
I am a Chaplain Assistant in the USAF. I also happen to be an Atheist. I never cared much for prayer in a public setting, but for a different reason. For me it was a personal discomfort. I commended a chaplain once for personalizing the prayer as though he was the only one praying and everyone else was just observing. Until I watched this video, I didn't realize that the public image results in making us all look like religious soldiers. I will be bringing this up the chain. Thanks
stringsbytoby 2 months ago
Comment removed
copenhagenman325 2 months ago
Separating church & state is not anti-religion, it's religious neutrality - It's not fair to have one ceremony when you have other religious people and atheists in the bunch. Everyone should be treated the same and since it's not practical to have many ceremonies, there should be none.
Besides if 'christians' read the bible; it is forbidden to pray in public as it leads to religious poseurs (Mt 6:5), that's why Christians are instructed to pray in solitude with God as their witness. (Mt 6:6)
MarkArandjus 2 months ago
@MarkArandjus
If Christians actually decided read all bible without glossing over repulsive passages, by the time they reached the end, most of them would be seriously doubting validity of their beliefs. Then, if apologetic pastors didnt get to them in time to reinforce brainwashing, many more would become atheists.
futureorreligion 2 months ago
You can always pick an Atheists in combat. They do not believe there is a God protecting them, they know they have one life to give for service and no afterlife. So they are the ones who take cover and jump in foxholes because they have no deity protecting them.
VideoAudioDisco09 2 months ago
i might sound naive,i cant say for others but when i die i would never want anyone to "bow"down their heads for me and pray for me,i would feel insulted.I would rather have them celebrate my life and remember me and just bury me or something.
i believe that every soldiers funeral should be personalized he should write down how he would like to be remembered in the horrible event of his death,but thats just me
thenvdude 2 months ago 2
@thenvdude
Out of the military now, but in regards to my eventual death,
I have told my wife I am to be cremated and, if at all possible, have the asshes mixed with the gunpowerder of sky rockets, to be fired out over the ocean at midnight as the cliamx of a party with a live band.
whiteowl1415 2 months ago
I have yet to get the army (gotta get through med school first XD) but I am a dedicated Atheist. While I have no right to say it yet I firmly aspire to have the courage to hold to my lack of belief until the very end. I respect the beliefs of others but think few things are more disrespectful to those who risk their lives then to force them to do things like this.
The old 'No Atheists in foxholes' schtik spits on every atheist who ever was in a foxhole. Though the british army = less prayer.
stathamajf 6 months ago
It's funny how many people don't know that even in the bible it explicitly states to pray behind closed doors.
WolfGuyX 7 months ago
Prayer should be handled the same as Kegel exercises; one doesn't go around announcing when its being done (although kegels actually achieve something).
SeekerKC 8 months ago 3
I see this as coming to a head some time in the future as the percentage of atheists and other belief systems such as Wiccans and Muslims continues to grow. I appreciate your service and wish you the best of luck.
Maxdwolf 8 months ago
@Maxdwolf Thanks. I'll be doing my best to see that it comes to a head sooner rather than later.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago
I never bowed my head in the service. No one calls you on it because all their heads are bowed. In many ways you get more respect for standing our ground and that you fight knowing there's no after life
pigwigpa 8 months ago 3
Well, I think that including a specifically Christian religious element into military ceremonies can only cause divisions among servicemen, esp. in light of harassment or even outright persecution of servicemen by extremist Christian elements in the armed services recently. It couldn't be difficult to for military ceremonies to be more inclusive--& considering the distinguished service of non-Christian Native & Asian servicemen, should have done long ago!
eumenidis 8 months ago
I'd say make it an option.
While I find the idea of chaplains being payed by the government iffy at best. I can understand it. Especially in the army, where I think the vast majority believe in a god, and the christian one at that. I can forgive them.
But it should be optional. You should be able to opt out. I am sure there are some islamic followers in the US army, Do they make them stand there aswell?
thedutchman01 8 months ago
Which does answer and age old saying, that there are no atheists in a fox hole, when quite clearly there are. To me it seems like the obedience that religion has produced over the centuries in military, has become a recipe for conformity.
What would happen if you did not bow your head or did not close your eyes, would you be brought up on any kind of charge for disobeying orders like disrespecting the corp?
123backinyerface 8 months ago
Good question. Eventually, I hope the military will drop that practice.
I wonder if anyone has ever filed a complaint stating that he was commanded by a superior officer, (the chaplain), to demonstrate submission to a deity he does not believe in, and is it legal for such an order to be given?
Perhaps it will take someone disobeying that order for the issue to become important enough for the military to deal with. They MUST declare it as voluntary, with NO reprisals allowed.
Astrobrant2 8 months ago
Atheists should be allowed not to participate, or better still, the religious rituals should be saved until after the formal ceremony and be conducted only amongst those who voluntarily want to be part of it.
FHomeBrew 8 months ago
great vid well done for speaking out
TheLunarmonkey 8 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
well you did swear to obey the orders of officers appointed over you. so suck it up and do what the major said. If you don't like the christian soldiers of the US then don't join or get out as quick as you can. You did volunteer for it, its not like they forced you to join.
recyard12x 8 months ago
@recyard12x Actually, in the oath of appointment as a warrant officer one swears to obey the "lawful orders of those appointed over me"- look it up. It is not legal to order a Soldier to pray. To do so violates the supreme law of the land: that Constitution, which guarantees all Americans freedom of religious thought and expression, even those who fight to secure these freedoms. No, especially them.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago 15
@jacobreinvented They are not ordering you to pray. I've sworn that oath before, i know how it goes. I also know that they only time they have a invocation is during a big ceremony, In my 20 years If I made it to 10 ceremonies that had a invocation, that would be a generous guess. Lastly the ceremony is not for you, Its for the one or two people up on the center stage. Its their ceremony if they want a invocation, they can have one. From your video I really doubt you served.
recyard12x 8 months ago
@recyard12x Wrong on all counts. I have seen invocations at every school graduation, change of command, dining in, dining out, BN level Hail and farewell I have ever been to, not to mention the odd chaplain visit to our FOB etc. I probably heard 10 in my first 2 years. The ceremony is not for the two people center stage, Customs and Courtesies makes it clear that ceremonies build Esprit de Corps among all Soldiers present. If they want an invocation atheists should not be forced to attend.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago 4
@recyard12x I am currently stationed in the 12th Combat Aviation Regiment, Katterbach, Germany, am in my 17th year of consecutive active service, spent 12 years enlisted Tank Crewman (19K) making it to E-7 before being appointed a warrant officer and attending flight school. I have been deployed 4 times and done as much to serve my country as anyone I know. My Officer Record Brief (with SSN blocked out) is available by email upon request. There are indeed atheists in foxholes.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago 12
@jacobreinvented I was in the United States Air Force probably the most Evangelical Christianized branch of the US Military.Anyway, in basic training we were told going to church on Sundays was mandatory the 1st Sunday & optional after that. So, I & 3 others out of 70-80 did not go to church on Sundays so we were forced to clean the latrine & day room. My TI (Technical Instructor USAF) made the comment that cleaning his shitter was too good for the godless...That is when I woke up to REALITY!
Viracocha711 8 months ago
@Viracocha711 Yeah, (sigh) I remember being placed on cleaning detail if I did not attend chapel while in Warrant Officer Candidate School as well. I am ashamed to say I gave in and took my butt to chapel after that.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago
@jacobreinvented I would not be ashamed as I think more folks would not have gone to church if they did not have to do shitty work instead. We just decided the first week we were not in church to get to work & bust our asses & get done so we could have some free time before others got back from church...And it worked. Thanks for serving! Good luck & take care!
Viracocha711 8 months ago
@recyard12x The point is that military members did not join the United States Christian Military. They join a branch that claims to give equal reights to everyone. The problem is that during ceremonies we are force fed Christian scripture and prayer thanking a lord that not everyone believes in. This is not an issue of hating christians it is a issue of equal rights. Ahtiests, buddists, muslims and any other belief system are all equally mistreated with this ritual.
Iamnotabeliever 8 months ago
@Iamnotabeliever The military never claimed to give equal rights to everyone. Its accepted when you join you have to give up some of your rights. And I can not recall ever hearing the word god, or amen at any invocation. And if your that easily offended, then don't join. I mean really, your ok with being asked to kill people, and your ok with actually killing other human beings, but OMG you can't bow your head for a non denomination ceremony? Its not a ritual, get over yourself.
recyard12x 8 months ago
@recyard12x The US Army has an equal opportunity program and does claim to give equal rights to all Soldiers under military law. I have most certainly heard the words god and amen many times in chaplains invocations over my 17 years of service, first as a senior NCO and then as a warrant officer. It is not about being offended, it is about illegally forcing people to participate in primitive religious rituals. I am, for example, not asked to kill people. Medevac pilots don't kill people.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago
@recyard12x The military does claim to give everyone equal rights. The rights you are talking about giving up are not the same thing. Those equal rights are posted in every commanders equal opportunity statement at eery unit. Your claim that you have never heard the words god or amen in any inocation is also completely untrue. The arguement about me being okay with killing is completely irrelevant. Why would we make prayers to a religion of "thou shall not kill" and then march into battle?
Iamnotabeliever 8 months ago
@recyard12x They cant force him to obey something such as that. It stands against the constitution, which precedes that order. and takes priority
LegendaryAsshole 8 months ago 2
@LegendaryAsshole Sure they can, they can order you to go kill someone, they can order you to go die in a suicide mission. You have freedom as speech as well, but see how far that gets you in the military. Try mocking the president or your CO and see what happens. The UCMJ is the priority, the constitution is what they protect and defend, not follow. He volunteered to do it no one forced him to join, so he needs to honor his oath and obey the order to bow his head when given.
recyard12x 7 months ago
the picture of the guy at the podium shows that his name is popov haha
crankycactus 8 months ago
I too have taken part in these things however, not even once have I bowed my head I was asked why not I say I am not about to bow my head to your god because you out rank me sorry I have respect for you I just don't have that much respect for you.
Lariasio 8 months ago
good vid man. its just a misguided policy, and i hope it comes to an end.
gothatfunk 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I am also a member of our military service. I will be having a retirement ceremony in the near future and at that point I will not have a chaplain give an invocation. I a, looking forward to the reaction.
Iamnotabeliever 8 months ago
I am also a member of our military service. I will be having a retirement ceremony in the near future and at that point I will not have a chaplain give in invocation. I a, looking forward to the reaction.
Iamnotabeliever 8 months ago
@Iamnotabeliever Congratulations.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago
Stand @ attention. Don't bow your head. Keep your eyes forward.
matchu4444 8 months ago
I find it quite disgusting.
I had compulsory religion and worshiping all my school years in South Africa, now I live in Italy, we still have compulsory crucifixes in every classroom, state office, courtrooms and hospitals.
When I'm sick or when I will be dieing I will have a compulsory crucifix above my head.
With the last strength I have in my body before i die, I will destroy the crucifix in front of the priest that I have no way of avoiding his loving attention.
saintpine 8 months ago
That was wonderful to listen to, thank you.
platinumdynamite 8 months ago
I know what you mean about that silent bond. I felt it in catholic school a lot.
Often times I admit not wanting to say things that might insult a soldier, due to their service, sacrifices, etc.. but I wonder how many there are who have a problem with compulsory religious gestures.
dannypantsgm 8 months ago
I come from a military family... so I understand what is being said. This is nothing less than compulsory participation in a religious perspective. It seems to me... that this is a clear violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution... excellent correlation with differing faith systems prayers... well done.
brianthemayan 8 months ago
Excellent reupload :)
tattooskin72 8 months ago
@tattooskin72 Thanks bro. Wanted to put it as a response to the Hypocrites Video.
jacobreinvented 8 months ago