Classic play from Ivan Lendl v Stefan Edberg

[ARTZY64]

The only way to rank players is by how many tournaments they've won, especially slams.

WINNING, duh ; )

[moonpie99]

Lendl Rocked!!! His passing shot was sick!!!

[MrMagic002]

best player-edberg

[420League]

same techn1que ,Sampras and Federer have xD

[hugotheswe]

I love the play at 1.23

[ARKN06]

Some Sampras fans go overboard abt their man's running forehands. Lendl's were just far better than any RF than Sampras could even dream of playing. I was too young to watch the 80s live and remember. But now when I watch archived footage I realize Lendl by far had the greatest RF ever (both cc and dtl). Borg would be next up over the last 40 years. Besides Sampras Becker Edberg Krajicek Fed and Hewitt all at peak have had great RFs. Gasquet Baghdatis deserve sp mentions. Nadal is good only dtl.

[corgan59]

S Edberg my favorite Player ever!

[redozboy]

On a separate note, at their PEAK, the best serve volley players were Edberg, Cash & Becker and we haven't seen anything close since.

[redozboy]

It is a crock that Lendl was one dimensional. He specifically worked long hours on his net game to try & win Wimbledon and he almost won it.

[alin1975]

@redozboy

Hey, if you are going to call my post a "crock" you could be nice enough to punch reply.

I agree that he was one of the hardest workers ever. But, by the standards of the day he was a really poor volleyer.

And heck, Agassi actually won Wimbledon with minimal volleying skills. For that matter, Edberg almost won the French...

[redozboy]

@alin1975

Baseliners didn't make finals of Wimbledon in Lendl's era, let alone 'poor volleyers', when serve-volleying was a bread & butter requirement of the tournament. He made 2 finals. End of argument.

[alin1975]

@redozboy

What a load of crap. In the same era Edberg made the finals of the French, and Agassi won Wimbeldon in 1992. 1992 ffs, theres an end of argument for you right there.

Lendl was a great player. One of the top 5 best ever, and this is why he had a bit more grass court success than other baseliners. But in terms of volleying... he was always poor.

[Techtribal1990]

@alin1975

I'm not sure if Lendl was a poor volleyer, I would call him a competent volleyer at best. Lendl had the problem that a lot of players on the tour have today, he often pushed the volley instead of punching it, making it easier for his opponents to track down shots. And when I say he didn't punch it, he wasn't good at putting slice and keeping the ball low, I often saw his volleys sit up.

Lendl had to have some skill to get to Wimby finals. Agassi is a special case - returns well.

[alin1975]

@Techtribal1990

I dont know... maybe the disagreement is down to what "good", "poor", and "competent" means to each of us.

I recall Lendl as always looking clumsy at the net, and often netting some fairly straight forward shots. I also have a hard time coming up many top names (from his era) that volleyed worse than he did...

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 89 and 92 were not the same era tenniswise. Yes only 3 years apart but far from being the same era. At the end of 90, McEnroe Lendl Wilander etc were 30+ and way past their primes, while Becker and Edberg being early starters and Cash riddled with injuries were completely burnt out. By 92 these guys were all completely washed up. Also by the standards of non-S&Vers Lendl was a good volleyer - better than Agassi and the baseliners of the 90s gen. Abt on par with peak-Hewitt (02-06 ish).

[alin1975]

@ARKN06

First off, Wilander was 26 in 90 - he did not burn out, he lost interest. Becker and Edberg were in their prime, with Edberg being nr 1 in 90 and 91, and Becker in 90. Plus you had the likes of Ivanisevic, Stich, and Sampras. None of these guys were washed up by 92.

But I do grant you that the standard slowly dropped. By the mid to late 90s he would have probably been competent and by today he would have been a volleying expert lol. In his day however, he was not so good.

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 Mental or physical Wilander Edberg and Becker were all goners by 92-end. Edberg had good results only at the AO and Wimby in 93. Becker was already 8 years old at the top level as of 93. Won his first Wimby as 17 yo in '85. '85 was to him what '93 was to Sampras. What did Sampras do in '01 8 years since '93? Different players peak at diff ages. Becker and also Edberg to an extent peaked very early. Goran was 1D and a choker. Stich made several 1R and 2R exits at Wimby. Also Krajicek.

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 The standard I think was pretty poor after 90-92 which I think was the threshold. Becker won Wimby in '86 and '89 losing 2 sets each as also 3 Queens (with the 3 Wimbies) USO and some Masters vs Lendl Edberg Cash still good Mac decent Connors Leconte Mecir Noah Zivo Curren Nystrom etc. That Becker hardly won matches against top 100 guys without going to 4 or 5 after '90. 92 he played SEVENTEEN sets before the Agassi QF. ALL with unknowns. Including a 5-setter with claycourter Medvedev.

[alin1975]

@ARKN06

Nonetheless though, Becker obtained his highest rank during this period and won a slam in 91. It does not really matter to me how many sets he played, he was still ranked top 3 and won tournaments. Then he had personal issues and somehow managed to make an excellent comeback in 95-96 (won Aussie and finalist and Wimbledon), sadly cut short by injury.

I also get the feeling you are pushing my statement further and further out. This vid is from 90 and my statement is valid.

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 Becker was my childhood hero as a pre-teen in the 80s and a teen in the mid 90s. He was CERTAINLY nowhere near his 85-90 form from 91 onwards. By the time Sampras started dominating (mid-93) he was a mere shadow of his former self. Same with Edberg. He lost to a claycourter like Forget at Queens 95 and was struggling though winning throughout Wimby that year before a 4-hour long 5-setter with clown Pioline and a 3-hour long 4-set baseline slugfest with Agassi on his weakest surface

[alin1975]

@ARKN06

I have no idea even what your point is in this argument. It began with my statement about Lendl which holds true 100%.

Now, you are on about the "mid 93", so I am guessing you take drugs, since I was arguing about Lendl's time.

I dont care who your childhood hero was, fact is that in the period for which my ORIGINAL COMMENT applies, the standard for volleying was still excellent.

And I assure you, that I am more than intimately familiar with that era of tennis.

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 Speaking of Lendl though I agree he would have been better in the 90s than he was in the 80s (in a relative sense I think you too mean). And very good by today's standards. Federer was as good as peak-Sampras as a pure volleyer and at the net (though below Mac Edberg Becker Cash peak-Krajicek etc over the last 40 years) early on like 03-06. But he has become too much of a baseliner since (prolly has something to do with Nadal). Tsonga Del Potro and Murray can be good volleyers I think.

[alin1975]

@ARKN06

In regards to the rest, I agree somewhat. I think Sampras was a phenomenal volleyer in his peak. He pulled off stuff worthy of the top guys, and I rank him very close (though slightly below) Mac, Edberg, etc. I do not believe Fed was as good in this respect.

I dont even want to get started about Fed today lol... he throws away so many opportunities I want to bang my head into the wall :)

Murray is very talented but seems scared to use his abilities...

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 To me Sampras was far from "phenomenal" as a volleyer. Mac, Edberg (till 92), Cash, Becker (till 90) were. Also Krajicek when he was on. Sampras' first volley was strong as he elicited a weak return with his great serve so that keeping the it low was easy. He pushed his volleys rather than punched. On grass he rarely outplaced his opponents & hardly ever had to volley more than once. There might be a 10% time when he had to volley twice or more and thats when the opponent won the point

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 His serve was the greatest in tennis history (rivaled only by Pancho Gonzalez). If he was that good with his net-game 1) Agassi in one of his "off-years" wouldnt have taken him to 5 at Wimby on his worst surface; 2) Martin would not have that many break-points in Wimby 94 only for Sampras' serve to erase them consistently; 3) 1D choker Goran wouldnt have won more points had more breakpoints in Wimby 95 ......

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 ...... 4) Past his prime and exhausted Becker wouldnt have taken even a set from him same year; 5) Sampras wouldnt have needed Goran to be a choker to lose the chances he had in Wimby 98; 6) 18 yo Hewitt wouldnt have almost beaten him at the Queens 99 after which P'sis wouldnt have been kicking Sampras ass at Wimby the same year

[Techtribal1990]

@ARKN06

As usual, a lot of hot air, which other people will read and just have a chuckle. Its so obvious when someone doesn't like a player and uses a multitude of excuses to try to justify it. We see through it, time to go elsewhere and post your nonsense because I've had enough of it now.

[alin1975]

@ARKN06

As for Sampras... I have no interest in arguing this with you. My only concern here was to respond to your claim that the statement I made was incorrect.

If you want to argue Sampras's net skills, go find someone who cares. Suffice it to say, I disagree entirely with your position and I find your use of stats to be ridiculously selective and biased in the most extreme sense of the word.

Dont agree? Great! I couldnt care less.

P.s. my original statement about Lendl holds :)

[ARKN06]

@alin1975 That same form in that much exaggerated and hyped performance was enough to beat Agassi on his worst surface that Agassi who made his comeback that year on clay and had won zero matches the previous 3 years on grass and that after losing to past his prime Becker at Wimby 95. Anyway I think I am digressing as we were talking of volleys. I also feel Murray needs to get tough mentally and be more def in his approach to the net. Del Potro and Tsonga can be good volleyers too.

[goodyears73]

@alin1975 I note you received a lot of replies abt yr comment abt Lendl... I agree with you on his volley skills but I think you perfectly know what he did in 80' on grass ( australian before 1988, winbledon ...and last but not least Queen's tournament) ... do you know any other players with same results on their weak surface ?

[alin1975]

@goodyears73

Hey man... just to set the record straight, I have the deepest respect for Lendl, his results, and his contribution to tennis. He is without a shadow of a doubt one of the top 5 players of the open era in my book (probably 4th if I had to make a home-made ranking :D).

I have nothing but admiration for that player :)

[arabiannights100]

@alin1975 Who does he beat out of sampras, borg, federer and laver?

[alin1975]

@arabiannights100

Most of Laver's accomplishments, at least in terms of Grand Slams, come before the open era dont they? I usually leave him out because of that, because its just too damn hard to compare.

Then there is the problem with the Aussie Open. The tournament that fucks up all stats by raising the record of Aussie players (who seem to be the ones who mainly played it prior to the 80s).

But, if we count him, then maybe Lendl is 5th, idk, its close though with Laver and Borg.

[arabiannights100]

@alin1975 Ok fair enough. I might put Agassi and connors above him, but agree Lendl doesn't get enough credit in the "who are the top players of all time" debates...

[alin1975]

@arabiannights100

Well, I definitely concur that there is a case for Connors. Not sure about Agassi though, I think there are one or two other players I would rank above him, such as Mac and Nadal.

Ok, heres my top 11 list (just cause I like Mats): Fed, Sampras, Borg, Lendl, Connors, Nadal, Mac, Agassi, Edberg, Becker, Wilander

Sorry if you dont give a crap lol, you catch me at a particularly bored moment :)

[arabiannights100]

@alin1975 lol, I like Mats too (another underrated guy). I'd have all those names, but maybe some different order - then another level down is others like courier etc.

I half want to put pete first just because of his mental strength, and noone ever dominated him or got under his skin like nadal has done to fed - and tennis is all about the man on man match up. But fed was sooo dominant apart from nadal that I guess he has to be no 1. Noone will ever reach 18 out of 19 gs finals again...

[cleanplasticchild]

That shot at 1:24 was sick!

[alin1975]

@dud321xyz

Baseliners have a more complete game? How the heck do you reckon?

Lendl was as one dimensional as they come (i.e. like a true modern player). Serve and volley requires so much more finesse and so much more in terms of reflexes and reaction. This is why you dont see it any more, since it is simply too difficult to do in modern conditions.

Tennis nowadays is mainly just one top spin forehand after another. Talk about "complete".

[golfmaniac007]

edberg is a boring tennis player to watch. he would come to the net on weak second serves. you can't do that with the best baseline player such as lendl. as far as serve and players go, mac was a joy to watch cause he was cunning with his volleys.

[Techtribal1990]

There was a time when baseline players were not considered complete players at all. That very much is still the case, I mean, you won't call David Ferrer a complete player will you??

There is a difference between a baseliner and all court player. That difference has been blurred over the last 10 years due to the slowing of courts and players acting like cowards, staying away from the net for fear of being passed.

[Anon1352]

@Techtribal1990 well that and its a lot harder to actually get up to the net and not get passed im a 5.0 level all court player and i serve and volley and try to come to net as much as possible but with new rackets it doesnt take much of a swing for them to get a lot of pace on there shot to sneak it by me

[Techtribal1990]

@Anon1352

In the womens game, Amelie Mauresmo was the last great volleyer but none on the horizon now. Do you think we will ever see a great volleyer in the mens Top 10 again?

[Anon1352]

@Techtribal1990 i would say federer is a really good volleyer but i personally dont think he uses it to his advantage as much as he but its hard to say as of right now i'd have to say that volleying constantly is pretty much gone due to new rackets and strings but like i said its hard to say

[APH1991]

@Techtribal1990, if there's a greater deal of consistency from Michael Llodra e.g. stringing together finals.

[Techtribal1990]

@APH1991

I admit I'm reluctant to talk about Llodra because I don't want to confuse journeymen with great players because he has a similar style of play.

Lets remember for instance that Edberg has what is considered one of the best one hand backhands of all time and was a very smooth around the court. Llodra doesn't have one of the best of anything....

Its true, attacking Tennis became the domain of the journeymen, in the past the more talented players took to attacking Tennis.

[pararesis]

@Techtribal1990 id say llodra has the one of the best serve and volley games of all time, and i know others agree. his serve and backhand volley are phenomenol shots when he is on. watch some clips of him playing the paris master from last year, you'll see

[ARKN06]

@Techtribal1990 Depends on what you mean by "attacking tennis". I preferred the Mac/Edberg/Cash/Becker kind of attacking when they peaking in the mid late 80s. Mac relied on feel Edberg/Cash on volleying technique Becker on instincts and pulling off incredible volleys. Post 92 the new gen of Sampras Goran etc reduced Wimby/grass tennis to servathons. Sampras was more "attacking" than Federer. But nobody in his right mind would ever claim that Sampras was ANYWHERE near as talented/exciting as Fed

[Techtribal1990]

@ARKN06

Obviously we will agree to disagree about that one. Federer fans usually think Federer is the only player worth watching. They sadly do a diservice to Tennis with that strange attitude

[ReklisTank]

@Anon1352 True, I play nationally ranked tennis in the 18s age division. Coming to the net is a LOT harder. Everyone loads the ball with topspin now a days, so when you volley the ball bounces off the racquet face faster and its a lot harder to counter act the spin and at the same time place the ball where you want it. I'm starting to come to the net more though because I found out my net game is better then I thought. Volleying is still very effective i got 3rd at a lvl 3 national. just harder

[Anon1352]

@ReklisTank i agree completely you can without a doubt still find success coming in its just considerably more difficult but It's cool your trying to volley more ppl dont do it enough now :-)

[ReklisTank]

@Anon1352 you just have to work at it more then if you just stayed back.

[zblempt]

banana shot

[starejpard]

wow! especially Edberg's net volley seeming so far from Lendl and totally unreturnable and the way he picks it from the ground and hits it! wow! Ivan ruled back then, but Stefan was big w/o any doubts as well!

thanx for the ol'skool vid!

[ffallenaangel]

stupid old players always go to net uglys second service

[pablotjob]

australian indoor??? maybe brisbane???

[nizzam1]

thnak u techtribal for posting this video i really enjoyed all the edberg vs lendl matches when they played during their careers, especially the one son indoor carpet, so sad that there are hardly anymore tournaments on carpet

[Misssilverhawk]

A very good game from Ivan Lendl! cleen winners with back- and forehand! Respect!

But he wasn´t able to win that match! Stefan Edberg was the winner of this match. The score was 3:6 7:6 6:3 for the number one-player in the world at this time!

[Techtribal1990]

That's correct.

You have to admire Edberg to fight on and win in the face of great shotmaking. I want to upload another great game from this match but haven't got round to it yet, I've got so many great matches to make clips of.

[Misssilverhawk]

I love the matches between Lendl an Edberg. Lendl´s great groundstrokes and his perfect groundgame against Edbergs almast perfect serve and volley-tennis. A perfect mix and good to watch!

I have 20 matches Edberg vs. Lendl on tape!

By the way a week later in Tokio Lendl beat Edberg in the semifinal 7:5 6:3

and won the tournament against Boris Becker!

[SVolleyGame]

Nice, I love Lendl's forehand. It has such a fluent motion in it yet so powerful +accurate. Pretty imaging considering that racket headsize was probably 80 sq-inch. I do not think it can ever be copied again- same thing goes for Edberg's volley. Great video.

[sam7666]

OMG - 3 thundering winners in a row. The forehand was total cum in ur pants ownage then a backhand to win the set. What a legendary player.

[BLACKTREAT]

WOW!That running forehand pass by Lendl was spectacular!

Notice how he kept his head down while hitting the ball.

[Techtribal1990]

Indeed

I wish we had DVD recorders around in th 1990s though, because the original video tape was chopped up.

But nothing I can do about that, the replay showed how amazing the shot was so still worth seeing for sure.