Audi Adds Google Earth to MMI - Autoline Daily 310

[JohnCBriggs]

Back to the original problem that I had with Johns statement. John said

Collectively the Detroit 3 sold 150,000 of them (full size vans) last year, and in a good year they sell about 250,000. Those big vans help drag down their fuel economy average, which is a key reason why GM, Ford, and Chrysler always come out of the bottom the CAFÉ ratings. However, if you look at the car ratings, these dont include Full Size vans and the big 3 still do poorly. So dont blame the Vans.

[piwright42]

Authority to establish vehicle classifications for the purposes of calculating CAFE was delegated to NHTSA. Specifically, the definitions are as follows: 1) Passenger Car any 4-wheel vehicle not designed for off-road use that is manufactured primarily for use in transporting 10 people or less. 2) Truck a 4-wheel vehicle which is designed for off-road operation (has 4-wheel drive or is more than 6,000 lbs. GVWR and has physical features consistent with those of a truck); or...

[piwright42]

which is designed to perform at least one of the following functions: (1) transport more than 10 people; (2) provide temporary living quarters; (3) transport property in an open bed; (4) permit greater cargo-carrying capacity than passenger-carrying volume; or (5) can be converted to an open bed vehicle by removal of rear seats to form a flat continuous floor with the use of simple tools.

I got that from NHTSA's CAFE site. So I guess vans do factor in CAFE.

[JohnCBriggs]

Right, Vans factor into "Light Truck" CAFE but not car CAFE. Looking at the data, GM, Chrysler, and Ford cars rank low or middle of the CAFE car ratings. This cannot be explained by the presence of vans in their line-up because vans are not a factor in car CAFE. Simply put, the average Toyota car has higher MPG than the average detroit 3 car. Does that really surprise anyone. Why not just admit it.

[piwright42]

@JohnCBriggs No for the time being it does not surprise me. I mean look at how many oil lobbyists are represented at the white house. Still the trend is for greater economy and lobbyist hold little sway over the consumer. I feel that economic pressure will force the Detroit 3 to improve their MPG ratings in the near future. GM's Volt and Ford's Fusion are a testament to the trend. Bear in mind that nothing, even American fuel economy, is set in stone.

[piwright42]

@JohnCBriggs By the way thank you for your civil response. It is nice to meet someone who can get their point across without insult nor condescent.

[JohnCBriggs]

@piwright42 You beat me to it here. I was going to mention the Ford Fusion Hybrid and the GM Volt as well. The Fusion Hybrid is a relatively large car getting 41MPG in the city. This is fantastic and 1 MPG better than the much smaller 2010 Honda Insight hybrid. Personally, I am most excited about the Chevy Volt. This seems to be a really game changer for the industry and possible Detroit. I hope I can afford one.

[JohnCBriggs]

@piwright42. Also, I agree with you that there are three players in the MPG game, 1) the consumer, 2) the auto manufacturers, and 3) Congress/lobbyist. They all need to work together to deal with the environmenta and economic impact that oil is having on the USA. I have a family member that just goes on and on about how she needs her GM Excursion SUV because she has one baby. Give me a break. Fact is, she is driving it because she can afford to. But the environment suffers.

[piwright42]

@JohnCBriggs Your family member is the exact reason I am saving to put a new diesel into my '56 F-100. I love it but I get concerned about emissions. Just because one can afford a particular vehicle does not mean that they cannot environmentally responsible. Besides the 289cid V8 in that beastie of mine right now is not what it came with stock. If a BMW 120D can get near 55MPG, then if I get the transmission right, I should be able to get 28-30MPG combined in 55 year old ride.

[JohnCBriggs]

Not to mention the environmental benefits of not scraping a 50 year old vehicle. Good for you.

[piwright42]

@JohnCBriggs I agree that the Volt is a real game changer, but what will really change the game is the upcoming paper battery. Wiki has a nice write up for it. Besides being lighter than a comparable lithium battery they say that the paper battery will hold more charge, deliver more volts and charge faster. If the production of the carbon nano-tubes that make the paper battery work is environmentally friendly then the carbon foot print of electric and hybrid vehicles will drop considerably.

[JohnCBriggs]

Well, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I love to hear about advanced batteries. After reading the wiki and the BBC report, seems like this is a long way off and perhaps not cost effective for cars even then. But who knows. It is cool technology. The one that people often talk about is EESTOR. This is essentially a supercapacitor that is in production now and about ready to be tried in a car. Unfortunately, the manufacturer is secretive and missed many deadlines.

[piwright42]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, 60hr work weeks are hard on free time. When I think about the cost of a Mk 1 Fire Control Computer used in the naval Mk37 Gun Control and the cost of a modern desktop, I am filled with hope for things like the carbon nanotubes that make an integrated battery, like the paper battery, possible. Consider that carbon nanotubes were only discovered in 1991, then again think about the time between the Mk1 in 1935 and the Xerox Alto in 1973.

[JohnCBriggs]

Yes, I know computer technology has improved tremendously. Faster computers, faster RAM, high capacity hard drives have all improved at or above Moore's Law. However, not everything does that. We still use Lead Acid batteries today after 100 years. So battery technology has not progress according to Moore's Law. Yes I know Li-Ion batteries are probably six times better, but they are so expensive that Lead Acid is still being used in cars.

[piwright42]

Very good points. I should have been more careful with my analogy. I was not even thinking of Moore's Law when I wrote that. My point was simply that the discovery of carbon nanotubes is only 20 twenty years old. All my research on them suggests that if the conditions are right they make themselves. Originally they were found in soot left over from fullerene production experiments. Nanatubes are almost the opposite CPU wafers where the cost of fabrication increases exponentially over time.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs I'm still waiting for those 'import #'s' from Ford or Chrysler, that list showed.

I just can't understand where those numbers could have possibly come from.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. What is that you want to know? The specific models that are imported versus domestic?

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. OK, I think I generally understand the Government's Import versus Domestic scheme. To qualify as a Domestic automobile, 75% of the content must be made in the USA or Canada. Given the international nature of the automotive industry, it is difficult to get 75% content. I will post more below.

[JohnCBriggs]

Chrysler models

Crossfire 0% import

PT Cruiser 34% import

Caliber 66% import

300/SRT-8 74% import

Charger 74% import

Avenger 75% domestic

Sebring 76% domestic

Sebring Conv. 77% domestic

Viper Conv. 80% domestic

[JohnCBriggs]

Ford Models MKZ 35% import Milan 35% import Fusion 40% import Focus 65% import Mustang 65% import Taurus AWD 80% domestic Town Car 80% domestic Sable  80% domestic Grand Marquis 85% domestic Crown Victoria FFV 90% domestic

[JohnCBriggs]

Data came from AALA 2008 Submission By Percentages

[JohnCBriggs]

One little point of interest (maybe) is the high US/Canada content is 90% with the Ford Crown Vic. But the second highest with 85% is the Toyota Sienna MiniVan. In fact, a lot of Toyota vehicles have amazingly high US/Canada content.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs Those are some really bizarre numbers. I can't figure out how the 300 and Charger can be 74% import. They are made in Windsor Ontario.

And it seems that even though Mexico is part of NAFTA, this list calls them 'foreign'?

Whatever. It's all statistical mumbojumbo, I still call shenannigans because it doesn't actually prove anything.

The average person still thinks of an imported car as one that was designed elsewhere, and brought here. None of these fit that profile.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. Well, like many things in life, it is more complicated than we know. For simplicity, in our own minds, we like to think Ford=Domestic, Toyota=Foreign. But it is really not the case.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. Personally, I worked for a company called Iomega (many years ago) that made disk drives. It was an American design and an American company, but that was it. Most key components were made in Japan, or Europe, or Malaysia, and it was assembled in the Philippines. You tell me, is the drive Import or Domestic.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. I would argue that this is not statistical mumbojumbo. If people purchase cars based on them supporting American jobs, then they should know something about the cars. Sure this AALA metric does not account for Design Engineering jobs, or Corporate Headquarters jobs, but at least it is something. The big 3 are now large multi-nationals, it is time we accepted that fact.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs I actually don't care where the parts come from. To me when I bought my IOmega 250 Zip drive, I bought it because it was an 'american' company, fully assuming that the majority of parts were likely sourced from overseas. The parts origin wasn't really an issue. I felt I had better value buying from them as opposed to say 'Sung Seng Electronics Co.' because I had more trust in Iomega.

(It is old, but still have that drive too :) )

[JohnCBriggs]

Sorry, there is a misunderstanding here. The 300 has 74% domestic content, therefore it is considered an import. It must have 75% domestic content to be considered a domestic automobile.

[JohnCBriggs]

Also, don't be to quick in your definition of foreign. Toyota Trucks, as I understand it.  Are designed in the USA for the USA market, assembled in USA plants, and made with about 80% domestic content. Sounds like a domestic auto manufacturer to me.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs

I actually don't REALLY have a problem calling a Tundra a 'domestic' truck. It is built here, for here, and isn't sold anywhere else. They're kinda ugly, but that's another story. ;)

I still don't consider a 300 an 'import' because MAYBE the mags they bought from China were really cheap. Sorry, that's not enough.

That's the problem with the list. it's kinda funky.

(BTW. this is cool, and fun. a car discussion without name calling. LOL!! Right on! :) )

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs At the end of the day,(to me) If it was designed here, produced here, and sold here, I'm okay with it being called domestic.

If it was designed elsewhere, produced elsewhere, and simply brought here, (or made substantially the same here as they did where they were designed) I'd call it an import.

It may be an old definition, but at least it is something.

What I'd be interested in is how the list would change if Mexico was included. THAT would be interesting.

[JohnCBriggs]

2008 numbers March_2008_CAFE_Summary.pdf 37.9 Toyota (imported) 35.2 Honda(domestic) 34.7 Toyota(domestic) 33.2 Honda (imported) 31.5 GM (imported) 30.1 Ford (imported) 29.5 Ford(domestic) 29.4 GM(domestic) 29.3 Chrysler(domestic) 27.2 Chrysler (imported) Just Cars John, Just cars, No trucks factor in at all. And look, Chryslers imported cars dont even meet the 27.5 MPG standard.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs What cars do Chrysler import? the only imported vehicle I can think of is the Sprinter. I'd say that 27.2 mpg is pretty good if it's for the Sprinter.

What cars does Ford import for that matter?

Just asking?

I'd also have to guess by McElroy's talk that trucks and cars aren't separate.

Just saying.

[JohnCBriggs]

I am not sure about which cars Chrysler and Ford import. But the Chrysler Sprinter is a van not a car. So I am wondering if you teasing me here. Anyway, assuming you are serious I will continue.  We don't need to guess or argue about CAFE rules, the government documents this all for us. 3 categories

1) Domestic cars

2) Imported cars

3) Light trucks. Google

March_2008_CAFE_Summary.pdf

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs Cool. I've been a Mopar guy since dirt was cheap, and I have no idea what CAR Chrysler imported to USA. Because of the Auto Pact and Free Trade, vehicles made in Canada and Mexico aren't considered 'imported'.

I have no idea what your list means.

For Ford either. Even though the Focus was originated in Europe, its made here for N.A. consumption as far as I know.

[JohnCBriggs]

Sorry the list is unclear. These are the average MPG for each manufacturer. For example, the average car Toyota imported into the USA in 2008 got 37.9 MPG. On the other hand, the average car that GM imported got 31.5 MPG. The main point here is that these are all cars (no trucks) and the big 3 have low fuel economy.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs that's because they make similar cars in several variations - All small.

My thought is, So what? Although this averaging will hurt the domestics when the penalties start to kick in when the new standards start, when cars of equal size are compared, the domestics do quite well. Remember the Cafe average is based on ALL cars sold by a given manufacturer. Not equals to equals.

CAFE only proves people prefer imports to domestics, for higher mileage cars. Facts notwithstanding

[JohnCBriggs]

John's argument was that the Big 3 show up at the bottom of the list because they are not "full-line" manufacturers. He specifically states the lack of full size vans from the imports. My point was that CAFE car standards do not include vans, or any light trucks. They are comparing cars to cars and the Big Three still have a problem.

[JohnCBriggs]

So anyway, I think the data shows that John logic here is flawed. If you want to start a different argument that is fine. But this concept of a "full-line" manufacture is bogus. Personally, I think he should give Toyota more credit rather than dismissing their accomplishments. They already meet the 2016 standard (35.5 MPG) on import cars.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs I have a sneaking suspicion that you, I and John are talking apples, oranges, and wheelbarrows. Although his point about Toyota not making BIG vans is correct, and your point about CAFE averages is (assumedly) correct, my point is that it still doesn't address the comparison of apples to apples. If you want a pick-up (for instance) who's best? As a Dodge guy I hate to say it, but it appears to be GM! = to =. Mid size car, GM. I'm just saying, don't hang your hat on averages.

[JohnCBriggs]

Oh, I never intended to say high CAFE means it is the best car or car company. No one should buy a vehicle based on MPG alone. So ignoring the averages for a moment, the highest MPG, by far, is the Toyota Prius. No other car even comes close. Hey wait a minute isn't that the same Toyota car company that was at the top of the averages list?

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs LOL!! That's pretty funny. CAFE has never been about what is the 'best' car though. It is ONLY based on the "Corporate Average Fuel Economy". Based on how many cars you sell divided by the mileage they get. If you sell 1- 25 mpg Tundra, it is offset by the 3 - 59 mpg Prius's you sell. but if you need a truck with the best mileage, and you choose a GM which gets 29 mpg, GM would have to sell 4 - 43 mpg Cobalts just to be equal.

An average is just a statistic. Buy what you need.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. Wow, I am still not getting through to you. CAFE does not mix cars and trucks.  Selling Prius's does not offset selling Tundra's. Selling GM truck cannot be offset by selling Chevy Cobalts. Trucks and cars don't mix for CAFE standards. I guess I need to work communication skills. Anyway, perhaps some GM trucks are more fuel efficient than Toyota trucks. I dont really know.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs Okay let's try this again

"CORPORATE AVERAGE fuel economy".

I don't know where you got your numbers, but if you don't know which Ford or Chrysler cars are "Imported", I'd say it's best to stop defending any numbers they quote. If they didn't sell any here, how can they affect anything?

I'm saying is, research what you NEED. Don't buy something because of someone else's calculated "average". It may not have all the relevant facts.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. Always a joy to argue with someone who concedes to zero points and keeps shifting focus. Anyway. All the vehicles are sold in the USA. As you know, some vehicles are manufactured abroad. These are called "Imports". Some are made here these are called "domestic". Either way, imported or domestic big three have poor fuel economy. The numbers come from National Transportation Highway Safety administration. I have given you the link.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs You are stuck in the 'highest average is best' scenario. It is still an average over the entire company. Toyota has never been the MPG leader on V8 trucks. We have some in the fleet at work, and they are lagging by about 25% over the Chevys.

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. That may be. I don't know about Truck MPG.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs As I once heard, Statistics can be made to say whatever you want.

[JohnCBriggs]

Ah well this is not some number created by a marketing guy. This is the NTSHA computed number as controlled by US law.  So do you think it is possible, just possible that Toyota is at the top of the list because they actually have higher MPG, or is it all just smoke and mirrors. I know it is a radical thought, but the company at the top of the list just might have high MPG cars. That might be one way to get there.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs Let's get this back into a world that puts this into perspective.

For most of the 80's Chrysler had the highest CAFE ratings. Frankly all they sold volume in was K-cars and their derivatives. They only really sold Diplomats to Police, and trucks to the dedicated few.

Their average was OFF THE MAP!!!

Did that make them all good cars? I wouldn't necessarily say so.

All I'm saying is that when you buy a vehicle, don't let CAverageFE determine what you buy. Average isn't = to =

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart. Excellent points. You have to look at the MPG of the vehicle you are buying. But you never did answer my question. Do you think Toyota might be at the top of the list of because they happen to have higher MPG cars?

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs Without sounding mean or anything(cuz this is fun)

Duh! ;)

The CAFE is ALL about an average of mileage. Given the number of Tundra's vs F150 vs Silverado's sold, I'd say the domestics have to outsell Toyota an average of 5 to 3 just to keep up. It is Corporate AVERAGE after all. Even if it were split into cars and trucks, Guys that need to work for a living, are GOING to choose 6.0L Chev's over a 5.7L Toyota, because they can tow and haul more in the heavier truck. 2500/3500+

[JohnCBriggs]

@Miradart, I totally agree that if you make your living from your vehicle (a truck) then you have to get the vehicle that will do the job. I did look up the numbers on Pickup Truck Fuel Efficiency from FuelEconomy gov.

And the winners are, drum roll please, Chevy Silverado 15 Hybrid 2WD and its GMC sister at 22 MPG highway. The Toyota Tundra 2WD gets 19 MPG and the Honda Ridgeline 4WD drive gets 20 MPG highway. So there you have it, GMCs are more fuel efficient.

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs C'mon, the Honda Ridgeline ins't a truck, but that is beside the point. Would you REALLY want to tow anything heavier than a tent trailer behind one of these?

Anyways, I really would be suspect of those numbers you printed out, right from the get go.

I still don't know what CARS Chrysler or Ford imported from ANYWHERE! Sorry to say, the #'s are a complete sham. I could probably make up #'s too, but then I'd have to join the IPCC. (but that is another story!! LOL!!!")

[JohnCBriggs]

37.9 Toyota Car import 35.2 Honda Car 34.7 Toyota Car 33.2 Honda Car import 31.5 GM Car import 30.1 Ford Car import 29.5 Ford Car 29.4 GM Car 29.3 Chrysler Car 27.2 Chrysler Car import 25.4 Honda Truck 24.0 Toyota Truck 23.6 Chrysler Truck 23.2 Ford Truck 22.5 GM Truck

[Miradart]

@JohnCBriggs

Still looking for the "imported" car in Chrysler and Ford.

I don't know where they got their numbers.

[piwright42]

@Miradart I could not help but follow yours and JohnCBriggs debate, it makes for a very interesting read. We do have domestic imports though. The Pontiac G8 and the Chevrolet Camaro share the G8's Zeta platform which was built originally for the Holden Commodore. Both come from Holden in Austrailia. Well the G8 was an import the Camaro was engineered in Australia and assembled in North America. The first leaked spy shots of the convertible Camaro were still on the Holden lot.

[Miradart]

@piwright42 I've actually been having fun with him. He's a good egg.

On to the G8. I would classify that one easily as an import. There wasn't really anything except the grille developed in N.A. Although there might be an argument made for the engine and trans being from here, but I'm okay with it being called an import.

The Camaro makes thing more difficult. Chassis developed largely in Aust/Europe, but with a body made, and designed here. Grey area for sure.

[JohnCBriggs]

John, The idea about full-line manufactures doesnt make any sense to me. CAFÉ standards are divided in to CAFÉ for cars and CAFÉ for light trucks. So whether or not a company makes trucks has no bearing on their car CAFÉ rank. So if you want to avoid the impact of trucks on CAFÉ, just look at the car ratings for manufacturers

Google cafe ratings by manufacturer select first entry

and what does it show, Honda and Toyota are well ahead of everyone else.

Later

John C. Briggs

[bajabusta]

i am still trying to catch up on your live webcasts from NAIAS!

[omar03dammam]

Well, thank you McElroy for explaining.

However, I checked Toyota and Nissan American websites and yes they don't sell full size vans.

However Toyota and Nissan are selling commercial busses and trucks with a very good efficient diesel and petrol.

So, I think even if they sell thier full size vans in the U.S the "3 detroit" will still in the buttom.

Your biggest fan from Saudi Arabia

[polishshark]

Well, they don't fit the definition which was probably created by the Detroit. Plus I think McElroy is a little biased, leaning towards Detroit. Never the less I like him as a host.

[EatmyDust1311]

should we really be that othered that the japanese automaker get a long-term supply of lithium? most people that know anything about cars agree that hybrids are NOT the future, dont they?

[East17A]

i don't think the diesel will have a great impact in the American market i did just look that up to check on the diesel price it is $3.09 per gallon and only two suppliers who provide diesel !!! and this is in Up state of New York where Taxes are High and lack of jobs and slow growth i wonder who would pay for this price knowing there is lack of suppliers ??? not to mention that cars run on diesel price are not that low too am i right ?