Freedomain Radio - Sunday Call In Show 9 August 2009

[Loveseekingmissile]

the scientific method is great for dealing with the material world that we interact with our senses, but as I said before there's that other 99% of stuff we can't perceive. It's not empty space, it is actually the infinite field from which everything originates. So existence = "IS" like the primordial "I am" of the universe. It always goes back to that one consciousness that gives rise to the thoughts or vibrations/frequencies that manifest everything that exists.

[hydralisk125]

Still, just statements, not arguments.

[Loveseekingmissile]

An argument is a statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason.

[hydralisk125]

Yes, and you've failed to provide any proof or evidence.

[Loveseekingmissile]

a person's identity is based on his belief system, if you challenge the beliefs they will defend it at all costs. people call themselves by names that they didn't even choose, yet they think the rest of their knowledge is somehow theirs and not given by society,culture etc. To know thyself is to know what you truly are beyond the ego(physical world) They stop questioning and thus stop learning.

[simonodell]

I think we need to find a better way to describe the existance/non existance problem. Things like thoughts clearly exist, I strongly doubt many people could keep a straight face while denying that, and yet thoughts dont appear to be physical objects. Ie they do not have mass. If we were to say that having at least some mass is a requirement for existing, then we would be forced to conclude that many things don't exist, including mathmatics and logic.

What does logic weigh?

[simonodell]

Can someone hand me a chunk of morality?

If you cant, then how can you claim such a thing exists?

Personally I think there must be a better definition for existance/non existance than the one in regular use, since as a concept it appears to be faulty inasmuch as concluesions derived from its principles seem to not match our experiences as human beings.

I still feel I have failed to properly elucidate my objection, so feel free to hack at it and we can clarify or discard it as neccessary.

[hydralisk125]

I can't hand you a chunk of the scientific method either, but this doesn't mean the scientific method is invalid. Same goes for morality I guess.

[simonodell]

Exactly and yet these are things we beleive to exist, implying that there is a class or set of things in the universe which exist, do not have any mass but can cause effects in the physical world, through altering human actions. Our bodies and minds are as much a part of physics as anything else after all.

Ps. Can someone tell me if photons have mass I cant remember.

[hydralisk125]

Logic is immaterial and affects the way material beings, ourselves, interact with reality.

[simonodell]

Right, and it would be illogical to claim logic does not exist, especially if one is using a computer system to make such a claim!

Therefore we need to wrap our collective heads around the idea that things can exist without having form or substance; which is a perplexing conclusion, but I can't see any logical alternative.

Btw any theists reading this that think im arguing for god... no... forget it, I don't beleive impossible mythical things can exist with or without mass!

[hydralisk125]

How would you prove things of the mind exist? For instance, if I said I had a dream last night how would you test the validity of this truth claim?

I am not entirely sure if logic is conceptual and is something I need to think over.

[simonodell]

Regardless of my disability to ascertain the truth of your dream state, the description of your dream is still definitely either true or false.

Dreaming is as far as I know still quite a mystery to science, but since we all have them we dont look like raving loonies when talking about the experience.

[Enhorn]

Im not sure, but I think they do, they react to gravity. But if I remember correctly, they are somewhere in between "mass" and "wave", inheriting attributes from both.

But dont bet any money on something based on my memory. ;-)

[hydralisk125]

Shoot yourself in the head and see how conscious you are after that.

[missypissy90210]

Good job yourboycal! thanks alot for the great info.

[yourboycal]

just like the people in power use psychological warfare to brain wash the masses , so do scholars , but of course you'd know whats true and whats not if you actually researched , the christians , jews , muslims , hindus , are all under this basis , only way to see that is if you actually looked into it , to verify the claims they make about islam , but nope you just went off what you heard , tsk tsk stefbot

[andyissemicool]

Go to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible website and click Quran. Then click any of the headings on the right. The Quran may have some good messages in it, but they are of small number compared to the horrible injunctions elsewhere. The Quran and Hadith are evil books and Islam is an evil religion.

[yourboycal]

(cont'd)

: Right to protection against persecution on ground of difference of religion - (S.6 V.108)

: Right to no compulsion in religion - (S.2 V.256)

: Right to protection of honour and good name - (S.49 V.11)

: Right to privacy - (S.24 V.27-28)

: Economic rights - (S.51 V.19) (S.62 V.8) (S.2 V.275)

: Right to property - (S.62 V.10)

: Right to adequate remuneration and compensation - (S.46 V.19

i beg to differ stefbot , again without research your blind ,

[yourboycal]

Human rights in the Qur'ãn:

: Right to protection of life - (S.17 V.33) (S.5 V.35)

: Right to justice - (S.5 V.9) (S.5 V.48)

: Right to equality - (S.49 V.13)

: Duty to obey what is lawful and right to disobey what is unlawful - (S.5 V.3)

: Right to participate in public life - (S.42 V.38)

: Right to freedom - (S.3 V.79)

: Right to freedom of conviction - (S.2 V.256)

: Right to freedom of expression - (S.4 V.135)

(cont'd)

[yourboycal]

atleast i take the time for hundreads of hours a week , to check out pro athiest videos to make sure i hear there points of you , i spend so many hours on the opposite sides information even though its not in my belief , i still keep an open mind , and dont dismiss anything as absolute , only thing absolute in this world is death , you are full of hot air if you believe you got it figured out , and be so absolute about it that u can dismiss other views , nothing but wannabe philosophers here =)

[RPFS2008]

"atleast i take the time for hundreads of hours a week , to check out pro athiest videos"

Maybe you should check out how many hours there are in a week? ;)

[yourboycal]

Man tries to make for himself in the fashion that suits him best a simplified and intelligible picture of the world; he then tries to some extent to substitute this cosmos of his for the world of experience, and thus to overcome it. This is what the painter, the poet, the speculative philosopher, and the natural scientist do, each in his own fashion. - -a.b

[RPFS2008]

Sorry, wrong, the correct answer was 168.

[yourboycal]

"also base the notion that religion (in this case the Abrahamic versions) encourages (nay, demands) obedience, almost always through the use of fear, ON the Bible."

so lets see who follows? dont eat pork , how many christians jews eat pork today ? , have your women covered up or shave off there heads? how many follow ? no tatto's ? no women speaking in chruch , stone your children to death , all in bible , show me who follows this today ? do reserach before u go up against a theologian

[RPFS2008]

LOL you're a theologian now?

Ok, I can clearly see now that you're not a full shilling. If all you were was comically deluded I think I could be tempted to carry on talking to you but unfortunately you're very annoying - in the same way a know-it-all teenager is.

[yourboycal]

"but unfortunately you're very annoying "

yea run coward run =)

[wait887]

it sounds like if you truly have problems with Stef's analysis, you should request a debate/conversation with him.

[yourboycal]

like stefbots other video on religion , where he made the biggest noob mistake of saying apostasy is islam , i asked him show me the verse in quran , he couldnt find it , nor did he apologize for the big mistake , see this is what happens when you dont do you research on a subject your trying to dismiss , this is what most you fools do , and you think your wise ????? when you have no clue what your dismissing , what kind of philosopher goes on preconceived notions he "heard" , without verifying

[stefbot]

sigh. "In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars.[20]" wiki

[yourboycal]

stefbot please do you homework , and find out how they got the law ? perhaps another books besides the quran ? there sharia law comes from hadiths , a fabrication lies against the prohphet muhammad , the quran clearly states there is no other book of guidence except for the quran , and no where in the quran does it mention complusion in religion , but of course you dont care about that because wiki is your friend =)

[yourboycal]

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

what does this say stefbot ????? NO COMPULSION in religion ?? why do you continue to make up answers?????? what kinda philosopher are you ? just because you dont like the religion please do some research before running your mouth like RPF

[Baabaloux]

Mohammed said, Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)

[Baabaloux]

3:85 Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

[Baabaloux]

Sura72:15 The disbelievers are the firewood of hell. Sura 4:89 seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks. 9.123 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you

9.73 O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

[RevolutionaryJam]

I like the chat about coincidences 23 minutes in

someone might talk about you being closer to the wind if you're a person who have concidences more prevalent in ther life

the more swooshy spiritual and loving I'm feeling the more weird coincidences crop up and that I find kind of intriguing

[sovereignself]

that last lady reminds us how methodology > conclusions.

[yourboycal]

reason and evidence , no matter how you sugar coat it , it is still a matter of interpertation of the evidence , logical rational thinking , critical thinking , has a very wide varity when it comes to philosphy , "burdon of proof lies on person saying god" really stefbot you run to that ? loool

[StrafingMoose]

Yeah, when you say a dude with a beard created the universe in 7 days, I would think the burden of proof is on your shoulder. I mean, I think I'm being pretty reasonable here.

[yourboycal]

oh yea and coming together by chance through natural selection where all the elements had to be perfectly in place to occur all without direction , sure thats more believable , i believe creator you believe chance , both beliefs fool

[StrafingMoose]

Perfectly in place ? Why perfectly ? Why do you assume that the universe or the earth's elements are "perfectly" in place ?

[yourboycal]

Why do i assume ? its perfectly in place ? because we wouldnt be here if it wasnt . For life to exsist you need many many many many many differnt elements to be in the right place at the right time , in the right distance , and the right speed , if it was that easy , making the moon habitiable would be no problem =) but it is

[StrafingMoose]

Humans and life not being here is not "imperfect".

[RPFS2008]

My 'belief' has plenty of evidence though...

It would possibly help your cause if you knew what you were dismissing. Natural selection isn't "chance". It isn't random or anything like that. Natural selection is a process of cause and effect. The only element to the process that happens by accident or chance are mutations.

And you talk about "perfection". 99% of all living species have gone extinct. How's that for "perfection"? I'd say that that is some excellent "direction"...

[yourboycal]

"The only element to the process that happens by accident or chance are mutations."

thank you for admitting it was by chance

98 percent of the species gone extinct ? wanna know why ? do some reserach into something you clearly have no clue about it , mutations majoirty of time bad , natural selection needs good or neutral mutations to bring us the variety of life we have today , musta been alot of retarded fish =p

[RPFS2008]

"thank you for admitting it was by chance

"98 percent of the species gone extinct ? wanna know why ? do some reserach into something you clearly have no clue about it , "

I know why, but how about you tell me why you think that is. Did God get bored of them? come on, tell me, oh wise one.

"mutations majoirty of time bad"

False. The majority are neutral. Some are bad (which get weeded out by natural selection, so are largely irrelevant) and some are good.

As you put it - do some research

[yourboycal]

"

False. The majority are neutral. Some are bad (which get weeded out by natural selection, so are largely irrelevant) and some are good."

please friend go to talkorigins a pro evolutionary website that explains this i dont have time to review researched articles for you , like really this is your job not mine , because you didnt do your part dont take it out on me =)

[yourboycal]

"I know why, but how about you tell me why you think that is. Did God get bored of them? come on, tell me, oh wise one."

now you'd like me to tell you about the scriptures , that you've dismissed? please if your serious about learning then do some research , right now all your doing is mocking a topic you have not the slightest idea about , and dont just reserach one scripture research many ;) msg me for more info i'll gladly help you out :D

[yourboycal]

"It would possibly help your cause if you knew what you were dismissing"

clearly you missed the points i made about dismissing things , the whole thing was about dismissing religion which i told him is a classic fools mistake , i dont dismiss evolution i have plenty of pro evolution videos on my page , and anti evolution videos , unlike you wannabes i keep an open mind and check out all sides of the argument , so i can make a better judgement call my self , its called open mind , hypocrate =)

[RPFS2008]

You don't check out all sides of the 'argument' tho. It is apparent whenever you talk about evolution (here or on your videos). The only hypoctate[sic] here is you - and you know it.

Your future self blushes at your foolishness.

[yourboycal]

"You don't check out all sides of the 'argument' tho. It is apparent whenever you talk about evolution (here or on your videos). The only hypoctate[sic] here is you - and you know it."

again i told you i have pro and anti evolution videos , again you run your mouth without checking , its okay im a very forgiving person , and i forgive you for your blatant mistakes =)

[DCLugi]

"reason and evidence, no matter how you sugar coat it , it is still a matter of interpertation of the evidence"

What do you base this point on?

[RevolutionaryJam]

everything you think you know is based on your own selection of evidence

[DCLugi]

What selection of evidence are you using to make that statement?

[RevolutionaryJam]

ahaha if that comment was a video I would give it 5 stars

[DCLugi]

If 5 stars were a comment I'd give it a video.

WTF? I need to stop huffing the sharpies...:)

[yourboycal]

its all interpertation of the evidence , we all think were right , we all think our way of life is the way everyone else should live and think , we fool our selfs to thinking were wise , when the wise ones will turn out to be the biggest fools ,

[yourboycal]

i can base it on 10 points if you really wanna get to the nitty gritty of it =)

[DCLugi]

And each of these 10 points would be your sugar coated interpretations, no?

[yourboycal]

lol stefbot "religion teaches you supersition and obidience " very weak stefbot , please get more knowledge about religion before making such outlandish statements ,just because you want it to be supersition and obideience doesnt mean thats what it is today , as a philospher i could never make such an outlandish statement with my 3 pound brain =) i guess thats what seperates the wannabes from the philosphers=)

[RPFS2008]

Religion most definitely does teach mindless obedience. Ask even a normal Christian whether they think the punishment of everlasting hell for non-belief is fair and they can't answer. They know deep down that it isn't so they just say "who am I to argue with God?"

[yourboycal]

"Ask even a normal Christian"

again this is ignorance of the fact of religion , bible says dont eat pork , bible says no tattos , bible says women cover head or shave of there hair , 90 percent of christians dont follow , so please dont tell me what a normal christian is , same with the jews and muslims , there all wannabes not following the scriptures , they follow preachers , who translate scriptures and send them on there own political agenda , get your facts straight before dismissing

[RPFS2008]

When I say "normal christian" I mean someone with a brain of their own, someone with some intellect (ie. someone who dismisses the idea, based on reality, that the world is not 6000 years old).

I also base the notion that religion (in this case the Abrahamic versions) encourages (nay, demands) obedience, almost always through the use of fear, ON the Bible.

If you're criticizing people for not following the 'word of god' to the letter then you need to get your morality straight.

[RPFS2008]

* someone who dismisses the idea, based on reality, that the world is 6000 years old

[yourboycal]

"If you're criticizing people for not following the 'word of god' to the letter then you need to get your morality straight. "

i didnt tell nobody to follow the word of god , i told you dont dismiss things if you havnt done the research on it , this is a philosophers point of you , you clearly dont understand that , keep trying sparky ,

"When I say "normal christian" I mean someone with a brain of their own"

i have a brain and im not christian , does that make me an alien ? =)

[RPFS2008]

What exactly is your point? And what am I dismissing?

You haven't even addressed my very first point, all you have done is taken a couple of words out of context and rambled on. You expect me to take you seriously?

[yourboycal]

"What exactly is your point? And what am I dismissing?"

you clearly missed the whole point of the argument , if you read the other posts this question would've been answered long time ago , but this is extactly what to except from rookies=)

[batmanthe]

Admittedly this unified consciousness is in some ways radically different to a concept like Yahweh. And why should I say this experience is the actualization of a acting entity; well I don't. I don't have any reason to believe that it acts at all (in any singular ways), but to me it is no less a supreme God. And how could any religious individual claim their god is greater? It's akin to saying the whole of reality is lesser than the Moon or Mars.

[batmanthe]

There is sensory evidence of God.

The experience of unified consciousness, also known by other names like unity mind, collective consciousness, cosmic consciousness, God consciousness. It's a loss of the sense of self for a feeling and experience of all other things in the universe at once.

[batmanthe]

People who have had the experience sound like complete asses because they will say they knew everything. It's like like someone claiming they are God it sounds ridiculous and arrogant on the face of it. But that's NOT the reality. The reality is they experience everything but lose it as they leave.

[batmanthe]

It's like waking up out of a vivid dream you know it as you are leaving it, but you can experience the details slipping away from your mind as you try to drag them with you out of your sleep self as you wake up. So you know you had this vivid dream but you can't recall a millionth of the detail. It's like that but infinitely more solid and substantial. And cosmic consciousness can happen only for a few seconds and still have the same effect.

[batmanthe]

I would like to point out that merely talking about cosmic consciousness or trying to push people toward the believe in it, is hardly useful or philosophically important as a third of what Stephan speaks about almost daily. Cosmic consciousness is something that could have profound implications and applications for humanity but I'm convinced that that time will not come for many, many years.

[RPFS2008]

Are you stoned, mate?

[Balden2]

"Religion teaches obedience to purely human authority"

And what does ethics teach? Tell me, exactly what divine power are you citing when you say such nonsense as "murder is 'wrong'"? And don't give me that rationality" bullshit; there can only be human feeling in ethics.

[stefbot]

Well, you might want to check out my free book on ethics...

[robzrob]

Don't engage with the superstionists, just laugh and walk away.

[BrunoKoveras]

Do you have 100% cancer cure? do you record the misses? normal medicine also has cases of cured cancer since he doesnt know how it happen or if it had anything to do with the cure modern medicine doesnt know and does not take credit.

[simonodell]

on the subject of forests not existing, by that logic, water droplets exist but clouds do not, soldiers exist but armies do not, people exist but countries do not, buildings exist but cities do not... can anyone else see the problem with this thinking? I perceive the existance of an objection, but I cant quite elucidate it.

[simonodell]

Computers exist but the internet does not.... so what are we all doing here?

[Loveseekingmissile]

people would do good in throwing away everything they've learned in school. You don't believe in the ruler's religions then why would you believe in their fake science? Haven't you noticed that all the systems in place are designed to mislead you? Reasearch Nassim Haramein for the true description of the nature of physics. There is a God but as I already mentioned you won't find it in any religious text, you'll only find it by searching for truth within.

[johnycannuk]

So, your a Scientologist or some other brand of psycho-babbling pseudo-science believing boob?

Sorry for the ad-hominems, but I have never read a more empty collection of meaningless and unfounded assertions as wht you ave put in comments here.

Why don't you shut up and listen rather than make baseless fantasy assertions based on no evidence at all.

[Loveseekingmissile]

the evidence is everywhere. just open your inner eye. as far as the ad-hominem comments, don't you see that negative emotions only hurt you, not the person you're projecting them towards? as a side note, I care for all of you here wether you agree with me or not. That's why i'm taking out of my time to even post any comments.

[hydralisk125]

The evidence that contradicts your belief is out there, just open your inner anus.

[newexperiment]

Strong and weak atheists and agnostics all behave as though it is not the case that god exists.

That is because "not necessarily true that proposition X is the case" is reason enough to behave as tho X is not the case.

If that ^ wasn't the case you'd have to follow conflicting propositions.

This, for me, is sufficient reason for the burden of proof to be on those who take the position that X is True.

[Loveseekingmissile]

Stef, God is Unity, the oneness of existence.

we as human beings and everything we see is a division of that infinite consciousness. Consciousness comes before material world, not vice versa. That's God, and it exists. Religions on the other hand are all satanic or anti-God. The idea of religion is like you asking your own leg to worship you. lol. it's completely ridiculous.

[hydralisk125]

Consciousness does not "come before" material world. Consciousness arises from material components.

[Loveseekingmissile]

what you call the "material' is a perception of consciousness. study physics and you'll see that the "material" you're reffering to is made up of 99% empty space. Also, consciousness doesn't reside in your brain, only your 5 senses.

[hydralisk125]

No, what you call consciousness is the perception of reality and the ability to distinguish the self from that reality. Indeed, the material I am referring to is 99% empty space, but it's the 1% that is important.

[Loveseekingmissile]

lol really? that's a perfect example of how a dual mind can convince a person that 1%>99% You're trusting your 5 senses that can only perceive 1 % of what exists and you think that that's all there is. Consciousness encompasses all.

[hydralisk125]

I am not entirely following you here. What do you mean by dual mind? Your 5 senses can perceive the 99% of the atom that is empty space, how else do you think we came to the conclusion that the atom is 99% space?

[hydralisk125]

*empty space

[Loveseekingmissile]

it's empty space in terms of what we perceive with our 5 senses. Scientists with their binary minds call it emtpy space. I know it's not actually empty space but that would be even more complicated to explain.

[hydralisk125]

I have all the time in the world if you do if you wish to explain.

[Loveseekingmissile]

lol, I'm glad your open to listening, but I'm writing a book on it. in the meantime you can research physicist Nassim Haramein, Greg Braden, Bruce Lipton just to name a few. research as much as you can on consciousness. there's nothing to loose and infinity to gain.

[hydralisk125]

Great, a bunch of new agey pseudoscientists. The only Ph.d. on there believes in holistic medicine.

[Loveseekingmissile]

holistic medicine can cure cancer, western medicine cannot. I speak from personal experience. Nothing is a system on its own. There's no separation in the universe so you must treat the whole. believing that you are separate from everything else is part of the problem.

[MaikUniversum]

personal experience here is anecdotical evidence. Do you have REAL evidence ? I mean peer-reviewed ?

[ewops]

There is no consciousness without your brain or some kind of cpu in an organism.

[Loveseekingmissile]

you think consciousness is like a computer? You've been taught to think like one, in a binary mode. everything is either right or wrong, true or false, good or bad. That IS how your brain functions. Consciousness transcends the dual mind, it is whole, unified. Don't take it from me, study these concepts for yourself. The truth can not be told to you, you have to realize it for yourself.

[newexperiment]

You realize you are talking in true false throughout your entire speech right?

[ewops]

The cpu was an analogy to the brain ie. jellyfish. If I shoot you in the head good luck showing me how sentient you are. I do not think in good or bad since I am a relativist. However I do gage my conclusions on the strongest empirical evidence which you have yet to provide for universal consciousness.

[Loveseekingmissile]

the cpu was a great analogy because it is exactly how we've been "programmed" to think since birth through the various institutions. Become aware of being aware and you'll see all the evidence you need.

[ewops]

Address the argument and quit psychoanalyzing. If you can't understand that the brain process data whether internal or external and that consciousness resides there then there is no reason to continue this conversation. All you are doing is proselytizing without any evidence.

[MDUMANOVIC]

My dual mind is telling me that you're retarded.

[Loveseekingmissile]

lol, what your dual mind is not telling you is that you say that because on another level you feel retarded.

[MDUMANOVIC]

Consciousness made me do it. It shapes my material world, you know.

[lnd3005]

Are you saying that there is a third category, other than truth and falsehood? Would you like to clarify?

[Baabaloux]

Rofl. What a bunch of craps made up without anything to back it up.

[Loveseekingmissile]

and your statement is made up of what? you write a sentence that no one can extract any meaning from. now that's what I call a bunch of crap.

[Baabaloux]

It called consistency, If you say nothing, there is nothing else to say.

[Loveseekingmissile]

haha, well now you're saying something.

[FatherofAlexis]

I got your emergent phenomenon right here. Priceless.

[trevor920]

lol i would be more than happy to disprove god--[i've got lots of time]

[Loveseekingmissile]

to disprove God you first have to define the word. Everybody is always talking about God, but if you ask 100 people what god is you'll get 100 different answers. Contrary to popular belief, religion was created to disprove God. All religions are luciferian, only an inflated ego like satan requires worship, not an infinite consciousness that knows all. Know thyself and you'll understand God better than following any religion.

[lnd3005]

Could you explain what you meant by this comment? I didn't really understand much of it.  Feel free to PM me.

[HymerSchmidt]

I listened to this Sunday. I had no idea I listened for 2 hours.

[thissitesucks1]

Awesome