If you liked Baucham's video, you've been had

[PaulMatthewMusic1]

God has maintained his justice and holiness and righteaousness and man has responsibility for his actions as well. Evil without a God given purpose = chaos.

[brailleGraffiti]

@PaulMatthewMusic1 But would you not then say that you stand on the brink of Nihilism, with the only thing separating you from it being your belief in God?

[PaulMatthewMusic1]

Important to understand in this view God has PURPUSE for things that are good and bad. 

[brailleGraffiti]

@PaulMatthewMusic1 I am guessing that this purpose is the glory of God?

[brailleGraffiti]

My personal view is much more in line with Judaism. To quote a site on Judaism that I read recently "...there is no ultimate struggle of good versus evil. There is only the struggle within each of us. The Evil Inclination, also known as Satan, is doing what G-d has commanded him to do. He is giving us temptations, because by fighting against our wrong desires we are working to gain the ultimate goodness, and that is what G-d wants us to do."

[brailleGraffiti]

@brailleGraffiti Christians like Baucham take this perverse view that we are meant to hate ourselves and our natures, when we are only what God made and intended for us to be. He is a fool, and no one should take him seriously.

[PaulMatthewMusic1]

I wonder from your video response to Bauchams presentation if you understand Chrsitianity and why Voddie's position is valid within a Christian context and his role from the pulpit. Voddie is Reformed in his Christian World view. He believes that God is soveriegnly in control of all space time and matter based on the understanding that God is creator. The source of all Chrsitian thought starts with this basic truth. So as christians we submit our minds to the instruction of God the truth source.

[brailleGraffiti]

@PaulMatthewMusic1 His view can be considered valid with a Christian context, but this is a very vague and blanket statement. Christianity is the largest religion in the world, and it contains a vast number of different branches, the three largest being Catholic/Anglican, Protestant, and Orthodox, each with quite disparate views. Baucham may be "reformed", but in the end, he is only one in thousands of competing "reformers", each targeting a different aspect of the religion.

[Donnievil]

Wow what a wonderful opinion you have. Maybe you should finish that first year of philosophy and then try again. most of this is nothing but your own uninformed presupposition and the first half is only you saying that you didn't like it. Neither critical nor informed.

[brailleGraffiti]

@Donnievil I'm sorry that you feel that way. My philosophy degree will focus on logic and formal systems, since that is what pertains to computer science. These are opinions that I formed by my own personal experience with Christianity, not ideas that I learned in a class room. Also, this video is rather poorly done, since it is the second YouTube video I ever made. It would be nice to know why disagree with me so much.

[Donnievil]

@brailleGraffiti You demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of what he means at several points, and instead of asking legitimate questions to try to better understand him, you instead jump to your own conclusions. You also raise some rather interesting points, like pointing out the universe's complexity in response to his assertion that God created it (this is generally cited as evidence FOR creation, not against it). Again, it seemed to be just opinion with no critical skills applied to it.

[brailleGraffiti]

@Donnievil Yes, it's called the "argument from complexity", I'm aware of this. I think you misunderstand me, I'm not a hardcore atheist. The purpose of my video is not to disprove Christianity, but rather to criticize Baucham and the people who follow him. Perhaps your misunderstanding is my fault, like I said, the video is poorly done. How do you feel I jumped to conclusions? What are some questions I should have asked?

[snoopster77]

At 8:30 you state that Voddie doesn't want people to think but that is exactly what he wants. You say at the start that Voddie seems tired of this question but what Voddie does with this question is turn it around to make the student think. You said it yourself. This is a cookie cutter question. This is one of THE questions unbelievers (and some believers) struggle with. And the fact that you dismiss his answer as trivial proves the point that people are very unwilling to explore his answer.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 I disagree. He only turns the question around in superficial manner: a mere restatement of the original question using self-hating language. A true reversal would have been pointing out the necessity of suffering, and the insignificance of man with respect to God and the universe. Instead, he underlines the "supremacy of man", and fails to give a decent answer altogether. People do not explore his answer because it's not an answer. It's an emotion, and a nasty one at that.

[snoopster77]

@brailleGraffiti I would hardly call it a restatement of the original question. The first question calls God into question based on two of his characteristics, his power and his love. Voddie's question introduces two more characteristics, his holiness and righteousness. Now the listener should now be thinking how do we reconcile God's holiness and justice with his love? The answer to that is Christ on the cross.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 God's holiness and righteousness are not "introduced" by Baucham. These are merely synonyms for omnibenevolence, and they are precisely the attributes that are placed under suspicion by the student's question, and rightfully so. Although the student didn't understand his own question, and allowed this fact to be overlooked. Baucham does not force a reconsideration, but rather says "shame on you for asking that". A real reconsideration would ask what it means to be omnibenevolent.

[snoopster77]

@brailleGraffiti So then lets explore God's omnibenevolence. You spend a lot of time playing the man (Voddie) and his use of humour and answering a question with a question but have not really dealt with his view of an omnibenevolent God that is perfectly just. If anything, you are proving his point that in general we have a man centred view of things.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 My view, which I did address in my early post to you, is that suffering is a necessary condition of existence, and not a punishment. Suffering in itself is not "bad", and actually has benefits, like a greater appreciation for peace, and for life. Modern humanity's fixation on suffering is symptomatic of the fact that we do not suffer nearly as much as primitive humans did. When one suffers, one gets used to the idea, and it does not loom like a horrible specter over all existence.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 I do not see how I am "proving his point". He makes man the center of everything: all of creation is a stage for us to play on. God creates suffering JUST to punish us. He is "angered" by our supposed misbehavior. What could be more man centered than this?

[snoopster77]

@brailleGraffiti You are going to have to point out where Voddie says all of creation is a stage for us to play on and where he says God creates suffering JUST to punish us because I just don't see it in the video. And I saw your view on suffering. I just don't think it addresses the original question about God's character.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 At 2:08, Baucham says that the correct way to ask the question is "How on Earth can a holy and righteous god know what I did and thought and said on yesterday and not kill me in my sleep last night”, implying that man is the center of God's attention, and the we must be ashamed of our existence, since we "steal God's air". A ridiculous concept: how can you "steal" from a being who created everything that there is? Where does the air you breathe go, if not back into His creation?

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 At 2:15: "Why is it that we are here today! Why has he not consumed and devoured each and every one of us?!" Though he says it's wrong for us to view ourselves as the measure of all things, how does his formulation NOT rest on man's absolute importance to God? How can you hate yourself and find yourself contemptible to the very atom of your soul, if your actions are irrelevant and inconsequential? How can you offend a God who is indifferent towards your existence?

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 Now, of course, according to Christianity, God is not indifferent: he loves us. Hence, the "problem of theodicy". Love does not ransom itself with the threat of torture and punishment. How many successful and healthy human relationships have you ever seen that are based on the principle: "if you do not love me, I shall punish you!" ? Therefore, I say that what we call "evil" is not really evil, and suffering is not a punishment.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 You could say that "evil" originates with us, and only us, but then you are placing us in a privileged position of being the only creature capable of "evil", hence underlining our all importance to God. Again I ask, what is this if not human centered? It also places us in the position being "evil" by our very nature, but somehow being the chosen race that God had to die for. A ridiculous position considering that no one chooses to "exist", and given the cost, no one would.

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 An interesting side note, the "problem of theodicy" actually predates Christianity. It was first stated by the philosopher Epicurus around the 3rd or 4th C BC.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

[brailleGraffiti]

@snoopster77 It's a slight of hand. Baucham gets you to allow him to reduce the original question to "if God is so good, why does bad stuff happen?" when that was NOT the original question. The crowd laughs at the pompousness of the student while he transmutates gold into lead. Then he knocks down this second rate question, and no one is the wiser, because no one knew what "omnipotent" and "omnibenevolent" meant to begin with. They probably never even had "one semester of philosophy".

[xjerryc2x]

Just like what you're doing here.. Funny guy, What are you trying to explain all your nonsense? I don't get what you're talking about.. Haha that's funny 5:10 mins you just kinda lost there.. Try to finish your degree first ok! :P

[brailleGraffiti]

@xjerryc2x Look, I'm no YouTube master. This was the second video I ever made. It's unprofessional, but what is "nonsensical" about it? At 5:10 a stammer, give unnecessary information, and look a little silly. But I had very clear point: there could be intelligent life on other planets. My degree is in Computer Science and Philosophy, not Communications and Public Speaking. So thank you, but I do not need to "finish my degree". A little less superficiality on you part would be nice, though.

[brailleGraffiti]

@marigolds44 At the very least, please understand the difference between a scientific theory and a scientific law.

[brailleGraffiti]

@marigolds44 Me too.

[brailleGraffiti]

@marigolds44 Concerning evolution: There ARE no "proofs" against it. It is a theory. A THEORY. A theory that has holes, but is constantly being refined. Science was NEVER intended to give FINAL answers (religion is meant to do this), but rather is an infinite quest to find objective truth. Like most religious people, you do not understand science AT ALL, and that is the root of your problem. You try to force it into your understanding of the world, and you wonder why it doesn't fit.

[brailleGraffiti]

@marigolds44 You further my point by dichotomizing politics. The left is NOT atheist. This is only your misconception. There are liberal, religious people. You have been blinded by Baucham to only relate HIS religion with the idea of being "religious".

[brailleGraffiti]

@marigolds44 It's not the "only one" scorned, and the fact that you think it is underlines the one-sidedness that I was trying to break up. Doctrines are meant to be subjected to attacks, the desire to let everyone go about their way without challenge is a desire for unconsciousness. Baucham attacked philosophy in such a way that he intended to "end" the discussion once and for all, I'm trying to show you that it is FAR from over.

[AnthonyHeykoopII]

Thank you for posting this. I was looking for a good Vodie youtube clip and your trolling came up. Thanks to you I clicked on the original video and have some cool and good Vodie Baucham to share with my friends.

[brailleGraffiti]

@AnthonyHeykoopII At least someone has a sense of humor :D

[KingJamesBible]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[brailleGraffiti]

@KingJamesBible In other words, what you're saying is "When confronted with someone who asks you to think, don't think, BE AFRAID! Close your ears and do not listen! Lest he corrupt you with his thinking!"

[KingJamesBible]

@braille The warning is that there will be people who will USE philosophy and "spoil" you. Are you saved? If not and you're using "philosophy" as an excuse, you've been spoiled. The Bible tells us WHAT to "think on"

Phil. 4:8 whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[brailleGraffiti]

@KingJamesBible If I was "saved", how would you know? You seem to have already made up your mind about me and what I am. I could tell you that I was, and then you'd just say "you're not saved right".

I can see that you read the Bible, but you clearly don't think about it. I don't recall asking you to think about things that were nasty, spoiled, rotten, or not virtuous. In fact, I believe that my argument was that Baucham was nasty, and not virtuous, and that you spend too much time on him.

[KingJamesBible]

@braille "you spend too much time on him" I didn't even know who he was until just the other day. So, are you saved or not? If you are, tell us your testimony of how you got saved.

[brailleGraffiti]

@KingJamesBible I am not "saved". As I said before, I was raised in a Christian house hold. My parents are Christian, and they raised me a Christian. I simply moved away from it as I got older. Maybe some day I will be saved, like I said numerous times: I have not ruled it out.

The question now is: what does this mean to you? Will you take anything that I've said more or less seriously because I am not "saved"? Why? Is my personal life relevant here? Again, why?

[KingJamesBible]

@braill "My parents are Christian, and they raised me a Christian" You cannot raise someone to be a Christian, you can only raise someone to aspire themselves to BECOME a Christian. As you must realize, the decision is up to you and you alone. No one can make it for you but do not dely in making that decision because the longer you wait the harder it will become.

2Cor.6:2 ...behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

[brailleGraffiti]

@KingJamesBible YES YOU CAN. You may not be aware of this, but there is an entire culture that surrounds Christianity. I was raised in that culture. No, it doesn't mean that I had a "personal relationship with Christ". But I didn't ever say that, did I? It's hard to talk to people with such a narrow perspective without getting angry. Now I understand completely where Voddie Baucham was coming from, although I'm just an undergraduate, and I'm not making a speech out of it, nor am I proud of it.

[KingJamesBible]

@braill You can raise somone in a Christian culture (family, home, etc) but becoming a Christian is something that you must make the decision for personally. So, I am correct in saying that you cannot say "they raised me a Christian" when it's a personal decision you must make for yourself.

[brailleGraffiti]

@KingJamesBible You are correct in your definition, but wrong in correcting me.

[Providential1611]

So the video made it after all? I noticed that yours were there before I scrolled down my inbox to see the "video responses" section. Is that what you did as well, maybe not noticing, or do you think it just took awhile to come to your inbox? 

[jfischer1013]

You said his argument is based on fear, shame and intimidation. He is saying that we should stop the spiritual naval gazing and start giving the glory to God that He deserves. The problem with the question the student asked is just as Voddie stated. People believe that there are somehow some individuals who in and of themselves deserve something other than the wrath of almighty God. Let me ask you this, where do you think people get their morals from?

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 Spiritual "naval gazing" is part of the path to spirituality, just as giving glory to God is. Again, Baucham wants to short circuit this process by TELLING people how to think, and so do people who think like him.

"Cannot we allow people to find happiness and enjoy life in their own way? You are trying to make another you. One's enough." - Emmerson

People make their morals up, just like we make up languages, and cultures. Morality can only be relative to the values that we hold.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I'd also like to add that if you don't believe in my pantheistic views of morality, that's fine. Part of the inherent nature of my views are to accept those that disagree. Just don't try to FORCE me into believing you.

[jfischer1013]

Is it possible that you do not like Mr. Baucham's video because you hate the God he loves? And because he happened to use the story of the philosophy student, well that struck a bit too close to home for you. In your video you make the assumption that the students are undergraduate students. How could you possibly know this? Then you call the student ignorant...the same student you are trying to defend.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 You obviously have very little experience dealing with college life, or college students. I've actually been a TA for a class, so I know the kind of questions that undergraduates ask. I am also an undergraduate myself, so I know the kind of questions that I would have asked. A graduate student would never walk into the proverbial chainsaw that Baucham set up. My assumptions are not wild guesses, and I think after everything that you've seen me write, you would know this by now.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 Yes, I do hate the God that Baucham loves. The God that Baucham loves is a thundering bigot, who finds pleasure in torturing the objects of his creation. But Baucham's God is just a figment of Baucham's imagination. I would NEVER hate the REAL God, that would be futile and silly.

[Providential1611]

@brailleGraffiti Actually, you have been poisoned by lies against Jehovah. In the Old Testament He said that He has NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked, and pleads with them "Why will you perish..turn to me and live" And the NT says God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL would come to repentance and that He wills that all men would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Are you talking about Allah? Yes you are.

[Providential1611]

Youtube does not allow links to be posted in the comments. But If you type in the search panel above the video the following, it will work:

Re:If you liked Baucham's video, you've been had

[brailleGraffiti]

@Providential1611 I have started watching your video. I can tell you've put a lot of thought into it already. It's rather long, so you will have to forgive me if I do not respond quickly. I also implore you to make this video visible to others. There has to be some way to post it as a response, I managed to get mine up.

I am not interested in presenting a one sided view, and I intended to provoke the kind of thought that you are giving me. I just wish more were as passionate about this as you.

[Providential1611]

@brailleGraffiti I know its long. And if its too late to watch it attentively, then just watch it when you can. I am in no hurry for you to watch or respond. I'd rather you take your time and take it in. I am glad you appreciate my passion, but we'll see how you feel after viewing it all. I did "lower the boom" on you a few times. lastly, I cannot figure out WHY this didn't upload properly. I may have to try uploading again, and it it works, I'll delete the first one

[jfischer1013]

Let's go this route. Let's say you are a Christian and you believe in the sovereignty of God, what did Voddie say that is so offensive? As I see it, two of the biggest problems in the world today with believers and unbelievers, is that we don't have a proper view of the Holiness of God and we don't have a true understanding of the gravity of sin against a holy and righteous God.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I made a NINE MINUTE video explaining why I thought it was offensive. It's the one you're commenting on, remember? Did you watch it? If you did, and you still found it confusing, please make specific references to the things in the video you found confusing. I will be happy to clarify.

[jfischer1013]

@brailleGraffiti Yes I remember....yes I watched. Why are you making such snarky remarks? I found NOTHING in it confusing. Your stance is crystal clear. So I guess we made our points and we can move on.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 If you would like to move on, that's fine. I hope you've learned something from this discussion, or at the very least are seriously reconsidering what Baucham says.

[jfischer1013]

@brailleGraffiti Look, I get the fact that you've had some university education but you don't need to act like you are some supreme intellectual. We are all on the road of discovering and learning and comments like that are contentious and unnecessary. One more question...can you explain your beliefs on the origin of man and the universe?

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I actually went to a community college. I am only in my first year at the university. Again, you're not very good with your assumptions. They are contentious intentionally to shake you out of your complacency, and they are a measure of the extent to which I think you are underestimating me.

[jfischer1013]

@brailleGraffiti What would make you think that I am complacent and that I would need to be shaken out of it? I am far from complacent. You just think that you know people better that you actually do. But in any case I give you props for being honest.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I don't know, based on your posts, you seem pretty complacent to me :P

[jfischer1013]

@brailleGraffiti I think I am spot on with my assumptions. I said you had "some" university education and that you were being contentious, both of which were correct.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I missed the "some" part. Very good. I stand duly corrected.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 Like I said, I believe in evolution. I think there is enough evidence to show that this is at least the best theory we have. How the process of evolution was started, I do not know. I'm not sure that we can know. Science only deals with the objective, it is so far miserably unable to deal with the subjective experiences that are closest to us. If God is to be found anywhere, it is in the subjective, which again, is precisely where science as not been able to reach.

[jfischer1013]

You keep telling me to prove my beliefs of explain myself. I am not here to "prove" anything. I am just trying to get to the root of what really is your issue but I am not sure what that is. I am not here to try to sway you into believing in God or Jesus. I can only present the truth that I know as the Word of God and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. If someone is truly seeking to know God, He will make himself known to that person.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I'm a little shocked that we've exchanged so many words and yet you do not understand what my "issue" is. Oh well, I have no choice but take you at face value. My issue is quite simple, I think that Voddie Baucham's approach is nasty, thoughtless, futile, and does more harm that it could ever do good. I also believe that the people who follow him are thoughtless as well. I have been proven wrong on this at least once, but over all, I think my conjecture was quite accurate.

[jfischer1013]

@brailleGraffiti Well if you do not believe in God then I can understand your issue. If you do believe in God and His righteousness, then what he says is exactly right. He made not have said it they way our itchy ears would want to hear it but he speaks the truth. I am a follower of Mr. Baucham and I am not thoughtless. If you haven't already, you should watch some of his other videos as he is a great bible teacher with a heart for lost people.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I have watched some of his other videos. I was not impressed. I find his belief that women in leadership roles is a "sign of judgement" alarming. I also find him to be a bit of a blow hard, who likes to tell others that they are "playing fast and loose with the text" when he himself is only making interpretations based on whatever knowledge he obtained in college.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 And no, it is not "exactly right". And I have told you why. If you want to tell me that I have "itchy ears", thats fine. I can tell you that you have ears full of wax, and can't hear anything at all. Thats fine too. You clearly don't know how to carry on a fruitful discussion.

[jfischer1013]

I can also tell you have a good understanding of the doctrine of salvation, and more specifically the doctrine of Grace. I also believe firmly in the sovereignty of God and to comment on your earlier statement; I do love Christ and I trust him to save all those who were meant to be saved and to pour out His wrath on unrepentant sinners.

[Providential1611]

Braillegraffiti---I made a video response but I may not have uploaded it properly as a response to appear here--it also said you have to approve--just letting you know.

[jfischer1013]

Based on your writings, you are a contentious, disallusioned, disenchanted ex-christian. As a philosopher, you should be in search of truth, no matter where it comes from. Also you cannot possibly think that you know my heart or my thoughts and then pass judgment. Only God can do that.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 You have merely labeled me, you have proven nothing. For all you know, I could still be a Christian, maybe I'm horrified at what Baucham is saying, and I think that this is the only way to get through to people like you. You are a complete fool if you think you know what is going on in my head, you may only guess. And you are VERY bad at guessing.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 If what I said about you was NOT true, then explain to me how you hold up your belief system. On what pretenses? I can guess what is in your heart, because your worldview is in contradiction with someone who IN THEIR HEART cares about other people. I could be still be wrong. Prove it to me.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 You even said you did not care about the student's feelings. Can you be so blind as to think that feelings have NOTHING to do with the soul? Explain yourself, or allow yourself to appear like a careless person. It's your choice.

[jfischer1013]

So a few questions for you. What do you believe happens to people when they die? Do you believe in Intelligent Design or Evolution? What do you believe about the earth and the universe as far as how it got here?

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 These are easy questions. I don't think about the afterlife: if it's there, great. If it's not, I won't be there to care. I believe in evolution. Intelligent design is at best philosophy, at worst propaganda. Either way, it shouldn't be taught in science classes. I believe that no one really has a clue how we got here.

Please, do not cloud the issue by inundating me with irrelevant questions.

[Providential1611]

@brailleGraffiti Sounds like someone is tired of being asked these questions and now wants to use fear, intimidation and shame to avoid them.

[brailleGraffiti]

@Providential1611 I'm flattered if you find my PRINTED words to evoke feelings of shame and intimidation. It would be wrong of me to pretend that this was not my intention. I am merely turning the weapon that Baucham uses on hapless students against those who claim to support him. It doesn't feel so nice, does it? I am also opened minded, and I welcome and allow you to take jabs at me. Just don't be surprised when I jab back. I am also not "tired". I'm excited and ready for more. Bring it on.

[Providential1611]

@brailleGraffiti Actually, I was merely saying back to you what you said of Voodie. Perhaps you forgot you said this in your video? I don't find your words causing me any fear, intimidation or shame. But I am wondering if you will watch and allow my video to appear as a response to yours?

[brailleGraffiti]

@Providential1611 I will, I haven't received a notification of it yet. I'm new to this You Tube thing, so please bear with my stupidity if I missed it. And yes, I understand what you were doing. Do you understand what I'm doing? I don't think so.

[Providential1611]

@brailleGraffiti OK. I have always had problems with Youtube and video in general. You may not get a notification!

[brailleGraffiti]

@Providential1611 I don't see your video yet. You may want to try posting it as a response to Baucham's video, with a caption saying that you are responding to me.

[jfischer1013]

Now to answer your question. First off, you and I come from very different worldviews and we come with different presuppositions. I don't think Voddie was being antagonistic or using fear to get his point across. You have to consider his audience for his message. He was preaching in a church full of people who came there uncoerced. I/they believe in God. You do not. Also, I am not so much concerned with the students feelings as I am the condition of his soul.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 You may not care about the student's feelings, but do not pretend you care about "the condition of his soul". Feelings emanate from the soul, and if you ignore them, you will turn him into a clockwork orange like me, and he may ABANDON the faith and never return, as it seems likely that I will do.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 On your best days, you and Baucham may fear for others and their fate. On most days, you only fear for yourself. You do not love Christ, you only fear him, that is why you both neurotically focus on the concept of hell. If you really loved Christ, you would trust him to save all those who were meant to be saved. Instead, you think that your VAIN efforts will "steer others to the path of righteousness".

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 You believe in the supremacy of yourself and the supremacy of Baucham's ability to save. NOT in the compassion, love, justice OR supremacy of Christ.

[jfischer1013]

You said "The decisions I make will be upon the best evidence that I have". That sounds great. Let's start dealing with the evidence for God and for Christianity.

[jfischer1013]

Actually, being child-like is a virtue when referring to ones character or when dealing with things of faith. What I meant when I said being childish was actually being immature.

[jfischer1013]

It all comes down to faith. (Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.)



[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 Now I ask you this question: why would you like a video by a man who uses fear and antagonism to get his point across? Clearly, you didn't like it when I came across as antagonistic to you, how do you think the student felt when faced with Baucham's loud and accusatory voice? Even if he did accept Baucham's argument, don't you think he would have felt like a clockwork orange too?

[jfischer1013]

I realize that there will always be skeptics who have their own ideas concerning God and will read the evidence accordingly. And there will be some whom no amount of proof will convince (Psalm 14:1 – “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good”)

[jfischer1013]

Now let get to the heart of the matter. The people in your life that have presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ to you have done their job, they have told you the truth, now it is up to you to make a decision. The decision you make in response to Jesus here on earth has incredible significance on where you spend eternity. There are no second chances…no do-overs. I do understand how your faith can seem very artificial when only believing because ones parents believe.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 They may have done their job. Unfortunately, the job just wasn't good enough, and that may be an inherent flaw of the job itself, not of the people performing it. I am not interested in the selfish pursuit of avoiding damnation, so your argument that I should make a "decision" based on fear is of no interest to me. The decisions I make will be upon the best evidence that I have, not the fear of "hell", which is a ridiculous concept, reflective only of man's desire to punish.

[jfischer1013]

I think deeply about what I say when I respond to people. I noticed a common thread through all of your responses. You go on the attack and you make assumptions that you should not. I did not try to sneak anything past you. It doesn't matter whether you appreciate me using the word truth or not. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. So you drew the line in the sand and said that if I want to maintain a civil conversation, I should choose my words more carefully. Isn't that a bit childish?

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I can respect that. Unfortunately, most people who post here do not mean what they say, or at least aren't very convincing in showing me that they do. I do make assumptions, as we all do. If they are wrong, you are free to correct them, as you have done here. As for it being childish, I don't understand what you mean. Being childish can be a virtue, and holding childishness in contempt seems rather silly to me.

[jfischer1013]

One thing that struck me was to hear you use the word "crap" to describe Mr. Baucham's arguments. After all the years of education you have been through, the best word you can find to describe his argument is "crap". Anyway, you mentioned earlier that you grew up going to church and you have read the Bible so it is safe to assume that you have heard what would be called the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What made you turn from the truth to unbelief?

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 Yes, I actually regretted using that word after I posted the video. I made that video not long after watching Baucham for the first time, and some of my initial anger bled through. But it did catch your attention, didn't it? Although you don't seem emotionally aroused, but rather above it.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I initially turned from Christianity when I was about 12. It was not a clean break from there, but a gradual progression. It was fueled by my lack of personal connection to the faith. I felt like a "clockwork orange", I was only doing what my parents and others around me told me to do; it was very artificial.

[brailleGraffiti]

@jfischer1013 I don't appreciate that you snuck in calling your worldview "truth". You have not justified your worldview as "truth" in even the most trivial fashion. Perhaps this is why you tried to sneak it past me. If you would want to maintain a civil conversation, you may want to think a little more carefully about your word choices.

[brailleGraffiti]

To those who are interested: if you would like to legitimately dispute anything that I have said, I will be more than happy to have a discussion with you about my opinions. If you merely want to come on here, toot your horn, and tell me that I'm "wrong" without saying why and then act indignant when my posts come off as hostile, please save your time as well as mine. We all have "real lives" and the fact that you are a mother, soldier, father, daughter, etc, is of NO consequence here.

[JenniferHeath40]

As far as how quick my responses should be, again my RL trumps you tube, also maybe before you are quick to rush in with your silly comments, you should think about what you say. Maybe even give references to back it up. All mainly mindless dribble and full of anger. I am not forcing my religion onto you, no person can! You and you alone have to be touched by the Holy Spirit. And there is no point for this conversation continue since it is totally unproductive. Good Luck and blessings to u

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 In spite of your attitude, you did raise one salient criticism: I offered no references. I did write those responses rapidly (not "rushed"), and I did not feel it was necessary to list sources. If you are GENUINELY interested, I will gather them for you. But I will not waste my time on some one who cannot make up her mind about which "life" has priority, continually insults me, and views the conversation as a waste of time.

[JenniferHeath40]

I have responsibilities, that does not include arguing with a college student who lacks maturity (but that will come with age), on who is unable to focus on the original topic, As I stated I will pray for you, you've been blinded for your version of our founding fathers is not entirely true. I blame that on the education system for I have children in school too. You make assumptions of me but realize this, God, my family, and my work come b4 posting comments on you tube.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 You spend all this time writing your long paragraphs, that amount to little more than petty personal attacks on me, just to tell me that you have more important things to do? If your REAL LIFE is so important, I suggest you attend to it, rather than spend your time on You Tube telling me how important it is. Your presence here is absurd and self contradictory. BTW, you still have offered no rational for anything that you've said, other than to boast about your real life.

[brailleGraffiti]

By the way, the Slave owning South in the Civil War was VERY Christian, while Lincoln was ambiguous in his faith. So don't even think you can win this battle: you've already lost.

[brailleGraffiti]

"Sorry cant stick around LOL have to go to work.

Will pray for you though and hope you can open your eyes and heart and search for the Truth. Not judging you but you seem rather angry and could use some focus. Read you history of thisnation not what you think."

I'm picturing you with your eyes closed while saying this. Look, I have a job too AND I go to school and I'm sorry that I am much quicker than you with my responses. Maybe you should read more, then you'd be quick too.

[brailleGraffiti]

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." - Thomas Jefferson

BY ALL MEANS, do not stack quotes, but rather explain to me how this is to be reconciled with the face the founding fathers put on for their public documents and appearances, if you can.

[JenniferHeath40]

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." George Washington

One of my faves but not a founding father

If we ever forget that we’re one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under- Ronald Reagan

Sorry cant stick around LOL have to go to work.

Will pray for you though and hope you can open your eyes and heart and search for the Truth. Not judging you but you seem rather angry and could use some focus. Read you history of thisnation not what you think.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 George Washington was a slave owner. Although he likely had some intelligence, he was also a social climber. Thankfully, he had the decency to step down from the Presidency, even though he could have easily turned that into a Dictatorship (the other founding fathers handed it to him on a platter). Although, I'm sure you will attribute all of his virtues to his "Good Christian Nature".

[JenniferHeath40]

Independence.

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people...so great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens in their country and respectful members of society." John Adams Since you love quoting

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 And before you try to tell me that my argument rests on the founding fathers being atheist and agnostic, it doesn't. YOURS rests on them being Christian, which they clearly were not, else they would not have said the things they said in private. The quotes you give are only their public faces.

[JenniferHeath40]

"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty...students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." Thomas Jefferson

Unfortunately I do not have the time to respond to this dribble. I can throw quotes back at you all day long but is this really productive? Stop and ask your self this question if this was not founded on a Christian nation then why do we have the liberties we have? Do me a favor. Read the Constitution and the Declaration of Ind

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 You haven't discredited the quotes that I have given, just given other quotes that seem to contradict them. This reflects your arrogance that you can know the minds of the founding fathers, just as Baucham thinks he knows the mind of god. Did it ever occur to you that the founding fathers had to put on the face of "Good Christian" as not to scare the mindless herds that they governed? No, you think that once sided quotes show the whole picture.

[brailleGraffiti]

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams

[brailleGraffiti]

Are you really all this brainwashed? I am astounded.

[JenniferHeath40]

Please next video you do, please to organize your thoughts a bit better. This is mindless dribble. You have made several assumptions not accurate statements about Pastor Voddie Baucham

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 Can't argue with you on that. My "ah" and "um" count was probably off the chart (though I didn't actually count it). But what assumptions did I make that were not accurate? You don't get to say things like that without backing it up. In some countries, I could sue you for Libel and Defamation, and I'd win, cause you don't have a shred of evidence to support you claims.

[JenniferHeath40]

@brailleGraffiti

Sorry wasn't quick enough for you response, I do have real life to attend to.

My response yours, again you make not accurate statements only assumptions. I will pray for you and hope that you can at least understand what I am saying

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 You offer only the same response, like a mantra. I have to respect your tenacity, but you have only driven me further from your Christ, not closer.

[JenniferHeath40]

@brailleGraffiti

We are in America, you have your freedom of speech thanks to our founding fathers belief in Christianity. (in other countries you can be slain for being an atheist and offering mindless dribble on the internet).., so what does that have to do with the point being said? Mindless Dribble you are offering no ACCURATE STATEMENTS!

Thank you~ Moving on to more real life, sorry dont have time to hear your response.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 You're right, the founding fathers worked very hard to seperate Church and State. Most of them, like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, were either atheist or agnostic. They realized the tyranny that religion can cause, when left unchecked.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 And again, you dismiss me with labels. This is not "real life", you're going back to "real life". Do you close you're eyes while you're typing and make a patronizing face? Because that would complete the picture.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 I may be offering inaccurate statements, but you offer none at all! Maybe now you'll use that famous quote by Lincoln about keeping your mouth shut when you have nothing to say. Well, in that case, you're not really a Christian, because you have NOTHING to say, when you should be proclaiming the love of Christ to me!

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 HAHAHAHA, oh I missed that the first time! You actually think the founding fathers were CHRISTIAN? Oh that's rich. I thought it was a given that they weren't! That's why I didn't address it in my first comments! I don't like being mean, but you've already dismissed me, so I might as well dismiss you too.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” —Thomas Jefferson

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 Or maybe you're just going to hit and run, like EVERYONE else who has posted on this video. And then you'll try to tell me it's because I'm "not important". But what kind of Christian does that make you? Certainly not the Good Samaritan!

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 And again, I cannot help but notice the flimsy argument, held up entirely by shame. I'm supposed to feel ashamed that my "thoughts weren't organized a bit better", and give up. I'm sure now that you'll tell me that I am so disorganized, that I am completely incomprehensible. Well if that's the case, you have made no effort to understand what I am saying. You've merely waved your hand and dismissed me, with NO THOUGHT AT ALL.

[brailleGraffiti]

@JenniferHeath40 "If a lion could speak, we could not understand him." - Wittgenstein

[adam160171]

I like what you have to say about the process. 

[idlepink17]

You're drawn to Baucham's video like a moth to a flame.

[brailleGraffiti]

@idlepink17 I would say more like a fireman to a burning house, but I am certainly drawn to it. This is an interesting chain of thought though, please go on.

[brailleGraffiti]

@M3PanoS I'd like to point out how thoughtless your comment was: it amounts to little more than white noise. You say you liked Bauchams video. But why did you? You claim that you "definitely haven't been had". What makes that claim justified? Not surprisingly, you didn't watch my video, so absolutely no thought took place there either.

[brailleGraffiti]

@OatmealButter Also, I suggest you watch my video and Baucham's closely and point out to me exactly what it is that you think I am "pontificating" on that Baucham didn't say. You are being very vague, which I think may be an attempt to lazily dismiss what I've said without actually thinking about it.

[brailleGraffiti]

@OatmealButter My parents were and are born again protestants. Though I must confess they no longer attend church, as a child and young teen I sat through many Sunday sermons. The country that I live in is professed by Christians either to be or once have been a "Christian nation". I have read the New and Old Testament, some parts more than once. In short, I am swimming in a Christianity soup. There may be blind spots in my knowledge, but simply telling me to "bone up" is not helpful.

[OatmealButter]

I will not argue with your beliefs, but I will say that I believe in God. I am not following how much of your video has anything to do with what was said in the video in question. You did hit the nail on the proverbial head when you spoke of God creating this Earth with all its complexity (around 4:19). Mainly though, you are pontificating about things Mr. Baucham never said. It would be wise to bone up on Christianity before you attempt to knock around what is being said by professed Christians

[M3PanoS]

I liked Baucham's video, and I definitely haven't been had.

Btw, I didn't watch this video, teehee. :D

[ItsAlwaysSunny89]

@M3PanoS if you didn't watch the video you shouldn't respond. you don't even know what he has to say

[M3PanoS]

@ItsAlwaysSunny89 I don't need to; I just needed to know what Baucham's video said to state the comment I did.