If the "last supper" was a traditional seder, why is there no mention of Matzoh, nor any mention of the Jews leaving Egypt. The lamb which is sacrificed at Passover is to commemorate the Jews leaving Egypt...not for atonement. That was done on the Day of Atonement of Yom Kippur. Who got what wrong?
@Jugglable - fair question. the festival of unleavened bread is a multi-day thing and the passover could have some complexities too. some suggest that the puritans among the Jews who felt that the Temple system was corrupt actually had their passover meal a day before the rest did. I'm not sure if that's true but it's a maybe. And if Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified the night before passover, perhaps it's not too strange to think he'd have passover supper a night early.
@Jugglable - Perhaps then it is entirely possible to have a passover seder the night before passover. I'm not sure. I can't say i've solved this problem to my satisfaction. But the most sensible thing I've so far read on it is from J. Dwight Pentecost's book The Words and Works of Jesus Christ -- p.416-421. You may be able to read all or most of it at books.google.com.
it is not passover. it is just a dinner. Jesus wanted to have last supper, which is coming. So, that night was just last supper. Passover meal cannot be done before sabath
I've changed my mind again. I do again think this supper was a seder. Based on Luke 22:7-16, for example, the burden of the proof to say that it was not a Passover meal lies on those who would challenge it. But I'll agree that this explanation is without a few difficulties.
@csmdeg Without enumerating all the pros and cons, Im just going to reference Harold Hoehners book Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, p.76-88, (which I found reproduced in J. Dwight Pentecosts book The Words and Works of Jesus Christ, p.416-421). There Harold gives 14 reasons why it was a Passover and 8 commonly given objections that try to argue that it wasnt. He concludes that it was. I agree. Also Oskar Skarsaune's books add some more weight to the idea that it was.
The early church did not take the Lords supper every week. Breaking bread is eating together. Let me ask: If you think they did then where is the cup???????
My first response is to mention that your tone seems a bit arrogant in my opinion. You're not going to make many friends with that presumptiveness.
Second, i agree that "breaking of bread" probably has a primary meaning of sharing a meal. However, 1 Cor 14 to me suggests strongly that when the Corinthians came together as a church, they ate of the Lord's Supper--bread, cup, and probably a full meal. This allows me the freedom to apply it to Acts 20. It makes good sense to me.
Third, the Didache clearly proves that your presumption is 100% wrong. The Didache holds a far heavier testimony than yours as it was written somewhere between AD 60 and AD 80, as it has a very strong Jewish Christian flavor, and as it reflects customs that were probably in effect for the early churches prior to AD 60. Put Didache 9:1-10:2 together with 14:1-2 and see an obvious connection between breaking bread together and the eucharistia involving the cup of wine.
As I watch this again I'm amazed at how this Seder formed the basis for the first meetings of the earliest church. I'm amazed at how church meetings evolved through Greek and Roman and English and American channels into whatever it is today. It's difficult to see any correspondence or continuity at all between the original and the modern. Mind boggling.
Acts2:42 - They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship [of] the breaking of bread and to the prayers... 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple . They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God. . .
Acts 20:7 - On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
This video has helped me to rethink the Lord's Supper and the what the first generation church centered their meetings around. The Hebrew insights into Passover shed light on the Last Supper and Lord's Supper in a way that serves as an antidote to our Greco-Roman-British misconceptions. It also helps me to see the HEART of the worship the first Christians practiced. They had a table, not a pulpit. They met mainly to "break bread" and secondarily to learn from the apostle's teachings.
The guy who played jesus looks like he was stoned.
TheAlesanarocks 2 months ago
If the "last supper" was a traditional seder, why is there no mention of Matzoh, nor any mention of the Jews leaving Egypt. The lamb which is sacrificed at Passover is to commemorate the Jews leaving Egypt...not for atonement. That was done on the Day of Atonement of Yom Kippur. Who got what wrong?
alg11297 3 months ago
You say the last supper was a passover meal, but why does the Gospel of John make it clear that the passover had NOT taken place yet?
Jugglable 1 year ago
@Jugglable - fair question. the festival of unleavened bread is a multi-day thing and the passover could have some complexities too. some suggest that the puritans among the Jews who felt that the Temple system was corrupt actually had their passover meal a day before the rest did. I'm not sure if that's true but it's a maybe. And if Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified the night before passover, perhaps it's not too strange to think he'd have passover supper a night early.
cthaun 1 year ago
@Jugglable - Perhaps then it is entirely possible to have a passover seder the night before passover. I'm not sure. I can't say i've solved this problem to my satisfaction. But the most sensible thing I've so far read on it is from J. Dwight Pentecost's book The Words and Works of Jesus Christ -- p.416-421. You may be able to read all or most of it at books.google.com.
cthaun 1 year ago
Thank you. I will look unto that if I gotta chances to get them. Anyways, is there anything that is free to read on the internet. Any suggestion?
csmdeg 1 year ago
@csmdeg I might be able to scan a page or two and put it on the web. If i remember to do this soon and if i have time, I'll let you know! :D
cthaun 1 year ago
you can probably see pages 416-421 by going to books.google.com and searching for: pentecost words and works of jesus christ
cthaun 1 year ago
it is not passover. it is just a dinner. Jesus wanted to have last supper, which is coming. So, that night was just last supper. Passover meal cannot be done before sabath
csmdeg 1 year ago
I've changed my mind again. I do again think this supper was a seder. Based on Luke 22:7-16, for example, the burden of the proof to say that it was not a Passover meal lies on those who would challenge it. But I'll agree that this explanation is without a few difficulties.
cthaun 1 year ago
@csmdeg Without enumerating all the pros and cons, Im just going to reference Harold Hoehners book Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, p.76-88, (which I found reproduced in J. Dwight Pentecosts book The Words and Works of Jesus Christ, p.416-421). There Harold gives 14 reasons why it was a Passover and 8 commonly given objections that try to argue that it wasnt. He concludes that it was. I agree. Also Oskar Skarsaune's books add some more weight to the idea that it was.
cthaun 1 year ago
at acts 20 breaking bread was simply eating. Go a few verses farther on in the same passage, and you will see Paul breaking bread and eating
man4ourseason 3 years ago
Amen!
cthaun 3 years ago
This is a beautiful confession to me! Thank you!
cthaun 3 years ago
The early church did not take the Lords supper every week. Breaking bread is eating together. Let me ask: If you think they did then where is the cup???????
man4ourseason 3 years ago
My first response is to mention that your tone seems a bit arrogant in my opinion. You're not going to make many friends with that presumptiveness.
Second, i agree that "breaking of bread" probably has a primary meaning of sharing a meal. However, 1 Cor 14 to me suggests strongly that when the Corinthians came together as a church, they ate of the Lord's Supper--bread, cup, and probably a full meal. This allows me the freedom to apply it to Acts 20. It makes good sense to me.
cthaun 3 years ago
Third, the Didache clearly proves that your presumption is 100% wrong. The Didache holds a far heavier testimony than yours as it was written somewhere between AD 60 and AD 80, as it has a very strong Jewish Christian flavor, and as it reflects customs that were probably in effect for the early churches prior to AD 60. Put Didache 9:1-10:2 together with 14:1-2 and see an obvious connection between breaking bread together and the eucharistia involving the cup of wine.
cthaun 3 years ago
As I watch this again I'm amazed at how this Seder formed the basis for the first meetings of the earliest church. I'm amazed at how church meetings evolved through Greek and Roman and English and American channels into whatever it is today. It's difficult to see any correspondence or continuity at all between the original and the modern. Mind boggling.
cthaun 3 years ago
Acts2:42 - They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship [of] the breaking of bread and to the prayers... 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple . They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God. . .
cthaun 3 years ago
Acts 20:7 - On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
cthaun 3 years ago
This video has helped me to rethink the Lord's Supper and the what the first generation church centered their meetings around. The Hebrew insights into Passover shed light on the Last Supper and Lord's Supper in a way that serves as an antidote to our Greco-Roman-British misconceptions. It also helps me to see the HEART of the worship the first Christians practiced. They had a table, not a pulpit. They met mainly to "break bread" and secondarily to learn from the apostle's teachings.
cthaun 3 years ago