An Ecological Approach to Stopping Fundamentalism - David Sloan Wilson

[puncheex]

@variablast: The access to and ownership of wealth has not stopped fundamentalism in modern countries from shooting doctors or allowing children to die from basically well understood and completely controllable circumstances, such as the child recently dead from diabetes whose parents refused medical help. This goes beyond education.

[Neanderthalcouzin]

*existential insecurity

[Johnenglemann]

environment is completely false. Take for example muslims who are now living in safe scandinavian countries who continue with their fundamental religion and the barbaric practices of honour killing and female circumcision. Also consider that many muslim terrorists come from very wealthy and educated backgrounds. I myself am a fundamentalist christian but have been grown up with very little hardship. Western values are only weak if not protected.

[Neanderthalcouzin]

@Johnenglemann I agree with him that environment is crucial, and in regards to culture and behavior this is a fundamental fact. What I'm getting from your comment is a very relevant concern that fundamentalism can be supplanted in new environments, i.e. Scandinavia, and that's undeniable. When D.S.W talks about environment, he means the socioecological environment, which comprises the social one that we create. Furthermore...

[Neanderthalcouzin]

@Johnenglemann ...he's talking about existential security, not material hardship, as an ecological niche for fundamentalism. I think he's definitely on to something, but again this does not mean that a fundamentalist can't carve out a niche, or continue practices, etc, in a very foreign setting. Also, finally, 'western values' are not really about force as protection, but are about rationality, secularism, science, and social liberalism. Understanding the underlying root causes is protective.

[Johnenglemann]

@sciencemile You are exactly right. The man who is speaking is an evolutionary biologist who, as they tend to do, overestimate the environmental effect on humans. Other newer research in human evolution is confirming the fact that humans evolve very little because we have the intellegence to manipulate our environment to fit us instead of being manipulated (evolution) to fit the environment as is with all other organisms. The idea that fundamentalist ideologies arise purely as a product of .....

[szilviabartalos]

Would we even be ready to change nature and ecology in order to exercise believes on another land??? that is just hugely sad !!!!

[sciencemile]

Another thing to note is that Humans are one of the species which molds the environment to be well adapted to themselves, more so than any other species.

So not only is fundamentalist behavior encouraged in an existential insecure environments, it seeks to create this environment, perhaps.

[finlanderxx]

this makes so much sense.

[slicingwater]

Good Point.

[theosophers]

Liberals moving toward Nazism. History is repeating itself. This is what happened in Germany.

[slicingwater]

@theosophers Yeah becuase nothing screams liberalism like liberal facism. That book was albeit a poor attempt to equate liberalism with fascism. The books evidencce is as flimsy as a rotten burnt wooden board.

[sausage4mash]

wow, never thought of it like this and I think he is right.

[ndyt]

yeah... but changing the environment in the Middle East is almost undo-able.

[Maxwedge12000]

Exactly correct, which is why the people in this video are useless windbags.

[felixthehuman]

Every time I watch this I hear Sam Harris saying "How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education?"

[craigjones21]

My response to that would be: how many gas pumps must we visit before we realize that every time we fill up our gas tank we are sending money to the extremists who battle us as we attempt to aquire more oil? They've got us at both ends. Oil is a tar pit of doom from which we can never escape unless we eliminate our dependence on it.

[eternalduty]

@felixthehuman You are brainwashed, 9/11 was an inside job to control OIL fields in the middle east, buy having american troops based there... why don't you findout where Americas biggest Army base is outside of America and you will see. The whole world is run on OIL it is as simple as that, and all these false flags are to allow the powers that be to take your rights and control the wealth of other lands.

SIMPLE.

[felixthehuman]

Whatevs, dude- you know when you leave a post like "This Walkers Bitch is a Fucking JEW!! burn the Bitch alive!!!" - way to represent that religion of peace.

Hope you can get clear of the hate and move on to a better place.

peace.

[felixthehuman]

before the dash, after the quote, it was supposed to say: it shows up on your channel page?

[slicingwater]

@eternalduty Really so how come America first invaded Afghanistan, a country that recieves most of its income from Heroin instead of bombing Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or Iran? All those countries have oil, And yes Iraq does have oil but oil prices would'nt have shot up if we were taking it?

[eternalduty]

America already controls Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, it invaded Afganistan due to pipelines and also Drugs... Iran and Yemen are next... it's all about preparing for the next Super Power and it will be called the Golden Age.

[Neanderthalcouzin]

@felixthehuman Wilson was talking about the wider environment. That quote from Sam Harris does not refute that.

[2787mh]

@felixthehuman yeah the problem is the American army protects dictatorships for oil money (pakistan, saudi arabia, egypt, etc), and the only people who seem to be able to remove these dictatorships are islamists. google: operation ajax. find out what the iranian revolution 1979 was about. If you think religion is the only reason for these attacks, you are missing the point completely.

[TheAtheistSwede]

Aha! I *knew* Scandinavia was good for something.

[freesk8]

And the way to increase economic security is via defense of individual rights to life, liberty and property.

Free markets work better than more controlled economies.

Freedom of religion also reduces the insecurity that your religion may be attacked by politicians.

What is needed is free minds and free markets to reduce the incidence of religious fundamentalism.

[iluminatr462]

so if i understand you correctly, the way to eradicate fundamentalism is to replace it with fundamentalism. brilliant.

[freesk8]

While we are opposing Christian and Muslim extremism, we should also oppose the cult of the omnipotent state.

Socialism is a faith as well.

[TruthJunior]

"socialism is a faith"

intelligencefail

[eirefrance]

I'm going to get back to our little Havel vs. Global Warming Discussion, but I'll just interject here to say this: faith is believing something to be true before you've seen the evidence. You believe in freedom. It doesn't matter what actually happens with more "freedom", you've made your conclusion. Sorry, thats faith. I know you'll argue till you're blue in the face that this is different because blah blah blah, but that doesn't change the fact that its faith.

[eirefrance]

Its literally not possible for you to know every situation in whch intervention by a govt-like entity, but that doesn't matter. No need to look at the evidence. You "know" whats true already, just like a good Christian doesn't need to study genetic drift, they already "know" what the inerrant word of God is.

[GuyaRicanMC]

Why is it that religious fundamentalism thrives in America so much and "socialist" European countries have a much more secular population in that case?

[mhand00]

@GuyaRicanMC Maybe because the socialist European countries give their citizens a safer economic living environment (e.g. free health care) without resorting to political oppression. I am not saying I am for it, but it does not contradict his argument.

[GuyaRicanMC]

@mhand00 It kind of does contradict his argument that freer markets lead to less fundamentalist religion when the US [the country with the freer market] has much more fundamentalist religion than so-called socialist countries.

[eirefrance]

@GuyaRicanMC, those look like facts. Shut the hell up, man, you're ruining freesk8's dreamtime. Don't you know how rude that is.

;)

[mhand00]

@GuyaRicanMC I am sorry for the mix up. I saw your comment without realizing it was a reply to

freesk8 and assumed you were commenting on the Fora speaker who was talking about "existential security" and not free markets. The nesting display is not always clear when not viewing "All Comments"

[freesk8]

There is just as much fundamentalism in Europe, it just happens to be of the Muslim variety.

You are right that Americans tend to be more religious, but this is because of our first amendment that separates church and state. In Europe, govts tend to sponsor religion, and this tends to suppress the growth of religion. This also shows that govt and religion tend to be in conflict.

[GuppyPal]

I'd never considered what this guy is talking about, but it makes sense.

[TipoftheSlung]

If that were true how is the constant and nagging fact of American Christian fundamentalism explained?

Surely the States is one of the most developed of first world countries.

[jacobromu]

@TipoftheSlung Remember the Fundies didn't really get much sway until the Cold War, and it was tempered by the space race and whatnot. Also the secular constitution and that shit. shortly after the cold war and space race stopped, US started dropping in ranking.

[Inupiatun]

When you compare the US to other industrialized nations with real numbers we come up short.

[TipoftheSlung]

Inupiatan....

I agree, but the self image of the States is certainly that it is a world leader in almost every sense.

I would argue that theUSA is suffering from an exteme case of social dysmorphia.

[Inupiatun]

So because we proudly proclaim that we are the best, and freest nation in the world- that just makes it so when that is obviously not the case??

We cant be saying that when it is obviously not the case, it could be again, but right now it is not.

[philhellenes]

Good question. But keep in mind the prevalence and depth of fundamentalism is by no means as deep across the entire US as it is in the middle east, where to NOT be literalistic about religion is to become an outcast. Yes, it happens in towns and even regions of the US but not to the same degree. I think the US will pull out of the intellectual "nose dive" long before the impoverished and oppressed areas of Islam. After all, what will they have when the oil is gone? Sand.

[TipoftheSlung]

philhellenes...

Having lived in the Arab world i can tell you that the vast majority of people i met merely paid lip service to fundamentalist Islam. This is another self-image problem. In recent years it has got worse because of politics rather than a grand religious flowering,

I worry that you are being too lenient on the States. I think a tipping point is being approached. I don't think i have ever seen the Right Wing as stridently Christian and anti-intellectual as i do right now.

[philhellenes]

The more desperate they get, the more the absurdity of their views will become evident, I think. Let them rant. They couldn't stop Obama getting elected. They may even have assisted.

[eirefrance]

Being developed and being "happy" are two different things. Numerous studies, looking at various aspects of life such as suicide rate, divorce rate, polls, etc..., show the US as being incredibly unhappy. Existentially unfulfilled, if you will.

[PaulCynic]

Yes, but there's also the strong belief that we can change our situation. Regardless of how unhappy we tend to be, the psychological "windows" we make for ourselves are a powerful force for optimism and liberalism.

Can't say the same however for the fundamentalists, whose religion shuts those windows, and forces them to accept and wallow in the misery of their lives under the guise of it being "God's Plan". That sort of hopelessness is enough to drive anyone toward hatred and insanity.

[eirefrance]

He's not saying fundamentalism come first, then unhappiness. In fact, he's saying the opposite. So the difference in our unhappiness vs "their" unhappiness is pointless. Our high degree of unhappiness feeds our high levels of religious fundamentalism.

[crzer07]

Well then you can't say that Creationism feeds off from the same channel...

[PaulCynic]

You're ignoring their coevolution. Please don't disagree with me because that wasn't his approach. What I'm saying isn't incorrect, and your argument is semantic. And you seem to have missed the fact that I was responding to your analysis of the American condition, when in fact we have a relatively low suicide rate compared to other industrialized nations; even compared to developing nations. American's aren't perfect people, but I'd challenge anyone to identify a culture that is...

[eirefrance]

No, I'm ignoring your unsubstaniated claim that our freedom to change = our happiness. While that may be true, it doesn't correlate to the polls I'm discussing (like the Satisfaction With Life Index). I don't care if your ideology tells you economic freedom must mean happiness. Btw, we aren't perfect, nor are we that satisfied with life, which is why we have a high rate of fundamentalism.

[PaulCynic]

What ever you just said, eirefrance, is miles off from what I was saying. Clearly you need to be the "smartest" guy in this thread. Someday, you'll get your 11th grade head out of your ass and learn to read what was typed and not hypocritically impose meaning on those comments only to criticize what you assume is being said, while simultaneously saying the EXACT same thing yourself.

Hehe, read what I said again, you might see it correctly now. Probably not.

[eirefrance]

Maybe I am miles off from you're saying, maybe I am totally misreading and misunderstanding you. So let me start from the beginning: Are you saying that freedom of choice (usually defined as a form of capitalist freedom) creates a society of happier people?

[blackiron60]

This guy is more or less saying what socialists have been saying for two hundred years - unless people are materially secure, superstition, sectarianism and violence will reign. Nothing new here.

[eirefrance]

Material security is only part of the solution. Too much focus on material security doesn't help either.

[stenokhoria]

He has a good idea but to say the phrase, "the only way.." is very wrong.

As a universal, there are many ways for everything and all the paths vary to a degree of difficulty to reach the conclusion; but there is no such thing as "only way".

[arcanist9]

I think Wilson has hit the nail on the head here.

[makeyanoticeme]

I used to have a neighbor who lived his life in fear of global atomic war, that he think will come about in the next ten to twenty years. We would always have an argument about this. I said, I didn't see it coming. As the way of life becomes more and more comfortable and secure 'our existential fear' (as I would call it) calms and then extremism follows. Extremism/fundamentalism is the love child of existential fear.

[Aaberg123]

@makeyanoticeme

Heaven is built with fear of mortality.

[makeyanoticeme]

Couldn't agree more.

[duranali]

What is he trying to say?

[mavaddat]

This conclusion is remarkably in line with Gregory Paul's very recent research showing that societal dysfunction causes religious tendencies.

Sue Blackmore wrote a great piece on this in the Guardian's "Comment is free" section two weeks ago.

If anyone was wondering, David Sloan is referring to Ronald Inglehart's 2004 book with Pippa Norris, "Sacred and Secular: Religion and Politics Worldwide."

[1RadicalOne]

"One way and only one way to do it."

Actually, no. Education would be far more effective.

[VAR1UM]

yay

[seamoremonster]

Makes sense.

[dunndudebemelol]

Interesting but its nothing new.

[italianpolitics]

al gore cannot be happy.

al gore thinks he knows what is best.

al gore could freeze himself for the future.

[frankroto]

italianpolitics is confused.

italianpolitics is commenting on a video that does not mention Al Gore.

italianpolitics seems to have it in for Al Gore.

Poor italianpolitics!

[begalthegreat]

@italianpolitics

you're an idiot