Zeitgeist: Addendum - PART 5/9 - [Official] Peter Joseph

[ninaboosexy]

o.k, w.t.f? how in the hell can a medication be infected with the AIDS virus? was it a blood product? from my knowledge of AIDS, its not possible,how would it survive manufacturing processes? and it could also be in the very water we drink, If this is true, then that makes the rumor of Pepsi having the AIDS virus in it terrifyingly true!!!!

[biosphere12]

it doesnt matter how you look at this we have do chanse, soory i am not so good in writin engles :)

[Smiley4997]

@biosphere12 your right but theres no decentcy or ethics right now.

[flyattic]

Regarding Jacques, he is a clever man that has "discovered" (not created) a way to live. He is a scientist not an artist, he is in the end irrelevant to the movement. I certainly wouldn't sit around and agree with him if he said something off, but so far he hasn't. The VP doesn't belong to him, it belongs to every human being of the planet.

[immayhem]

@flyattic I just re-listened to an interview w/ J & R on Red Ice... They're waiting for a mass of people (who are deeply programmed to hierarchy) to self-organize and suddenly cooperate and create this. This lapse sets the whole thing up to be co-opted. The answer = open source enclaves... people working voluntarily together to create something of higher value that is competitive with establishment. P2P foundation is laying the philosophical groundwork for this kind of voluntary cooperation.

[immayhem]

@immayhem For it to belong to everyone, everyone's values must be taken into consideration. These structures, regardless of efficiency, would be offensive to live in for most people. There are people living in yurts in Mongolia quite sustainably. Mongolians might have something to contribute. I don't like democracy for the same reason. It gets co-opted by TPTB, and we're continually subject to 'top-down' values. The way forward, into 'our own' is learning to create our own value, cooperatively.

[flyattic]

@immayhem Humans have a very basic set of values, those being don't kill, don't steal, don't bully. Anything more than that is simply social indoctrination. There is no need to attack anybody's social values as within time the people of the world will merely dump them as they are irrelevant and inefficient . Love will always beat hatred and fear because Love is the most efficient and easiest emotion to feel. I love you :-)

[immayhem]

@flyattic I love you too. And yes, love is efficient... but we're talking about social engineering here. It is not exactly a distinguished profession historically, and has not ever been based on love. Malthus, et al. But those people truly thought they were doing 'good things' for humanity. So did Hitler.

All of our experience IS social indoctrination.

Headhunters in the Amazon thought what they were doing was fine. It is not knowable what values are intrinsic without social indoctrination.

[immayhem]

@immayhem Social engineering has always been a terrible mistake. There are no positive examples to date.

[flyattic]

@immayhem I agree there are no positive examples of social engineering. But it doesn't mean that it could never work. I'm sure there were many failed rockets built until we built one to take us into space and many lives lost until our ancestors discovered which foods were and weren't poisonous. Just because something doesn't work once doesn't mean it could never work. we learn from our mistakes and move forward. Humanity has always done this.

[immayhem]

@flyattic

According to Karl Popper, the difference between 'piecemeal social engineering' and 'Utopian social engineering' is:

"...the difference between a reasonable method of improving the lot of man, and a method which, if really tried, may easily lead to an intolerable increase in human suffering. It is the difference between a method which can be applied at any moment, and a method whose advocacy may easily become a means of continually postponing action until a later date, when (cont'd)

[immayhem]

@immayhem (cont.) "...conditions are more favorable. And it is also the difference between the only method of improving matters which has so far been really successful, at any time, and in any place, and a method which, wherever it has been tried, has led only to the use of VIOLENCE IN PLACE OF REASON (emphasis added), and if not to its own abandonment, at any rate to that of its original blueprint..."

[flyattic]

@immayhem Money corrupts absolutely. What's to stop any of these encalves taking power and creating a new establishment, And what do you think happens when an emerging ideal competes with the establishment in a monetarily competitive manner, They get killed. TPTB have all the guns, all the money and all the knowledge, the only way to nullify them is to create a world with No money, No scarcity, No religion. Mass education is the only way. It will take time but the way of truth always wins.

[immayhem]

@flyattic Okay. Let's ask the question, and answer minus any personal charges. How does money itself corrupt? Money is simply liquid value. It represents energy.

Power DOES corrupt in a hierachical system, absolutely. Because energy, (and money) in a hierarchical system accumulate at the top. In a non-hierarchical system, if flows horizontally. It flows among those who (truly) create value. A moneyless society will not just pop into being. It will have to evolve in an established non-hierarchy.

[immayhem]

@flyattic No one has killed the Linux folks yet. Here is why: Decentralization, and the very human drive to advance technologically (which TPTB suppresses in the matrix). TPTB can't stop evolution.

Linux is competitive with 2 of the most powerful entities on the planet (Microsoft and Apple). It will become more and more competitive exponentially, because it will be a superior product, and it's free, and it's collaborative... and eventually it will overtake both.

[flyattic]

@immayhem Ubuntu user here. Linux is great. A solid example of what the venus project would be about, but in a monetary system it will never come close to OSX and windows. linux would be the preferable operating system to create many of the programs running inside a venus project. Globally and collaboratively built software to design the most efficient and equal distribution of resources around the world

[immayhem]

@flyattic monetary system or not, makes no difference. Mac and MS are forced to compete, and they won't be able to compete with a free OS, and the unlimited potential for innovation. Intellectual Property is a big suck. AND - It will eventually cripple the giants. For every product Mac and MS ally with to try to complete a monopoly on their own products, a new one will arise and offer freeware, or compatibility. i.e. Open Office is a much better product than MS Office, which is fizzling.

[immayhem]

@immayhem

watch?v=hb_beDIaa1w&feature=re­lated

[flyattic]

@JamieWayneRothery . Please elaborate on what you think is wrong with a non politically and culturally aligned computer making analytical decision with regards to resource distribution. The reason people would be "good" under this system is firstly because money, religion and resource inequality (the three major starters of aggressive action) would not exist. And secondly its easier to be good than to be bad under the system. Most humans always take the path of least resistance.

[immayhem]

@flyattic How do you suppose billions of people can be persuaded to not be religious? Is it part of the plan to outlaw religion?

Resource 'distribution'? How is this planned? The answer can be none other than stealing from and giving to another. Unless this 'distribution' is voluntary, it is immoral. Unless everyone decides to not be religious, it is genocide. What Jacque proposes is simply technocratic dictatorship. Ever read the book 'This Perfect Day' by Ira Levin? You bloody well should.

[flyattic]

@immayhem There is no need to persuade people to not be religious. Its like persuading people not to have blue eyes. In a venus project type scenario you would have complete and total freedom to practice any  non science based ritual you wanted, but there would be no infrastructure to practice it in a group (no churches etc) The building of something that wouldn't benefit every member of society would be a waste of resources. Eventually people would see religion for what it was. A way to control

[immayhem]

@flyattic Of course religion is a way to control...

I find it ironic, therefore, that you think this other form of control is just fine.

What you are saying essentially is that control is fine if it's control that suits you. Quite an interesting contradiction.

Here is what I think: people who want to live in the Venus Projects should be able to do so as they wish. I also think that people who don't - should be able to do as they wish. So more power to you. But I'll pass on it.

[flyattic]

@immayhem The venus project would allow the greatest amount of freedom ever experienced by human kind. Its not perfect but its hugely better. If we didn't take incremental steps towards creating new civilisations we would still be stuck in pre history. People would never be forced into anything, if people want to stay slaves to debt forever then they will. But given a choice between slavery and freedom, a slave will always choose freedom. Its just a matter of educating people of their slavery.

[immayhem]

@flyattic "The venus project would allow the greatest amount of freedom ever experienced by human kind."

Not provable. Propaganda.

Prior to established hierarchy (preceeding the Abrahamic traditions and the advent of warfare) the fossil record suggests widespread matrifocal cultures in which dwellngs were the same size, (no leaders) burial sites were lavish and equal and an emphasis on artistry. The people of this period seem to have had plenty of free time, dedicated to making art.

[immayhem]

@immayhem meant archaeological record.

[immayhem]

@flyattic Seriously. Read Ira Levin's 'This Perfect Day'. Uncanny resonance with the Venus Project. And a great read.

There is a danger in extremes and the Venus Project is a dangerous extreme. If you want to understand freedom, consider Open Source as a model for the new paradigm. Bottom-up value creation. Horizontal. Voluntary. Cooperative. Non-hierarchical.

Venus Project = top-down value creation = A ready-made city and philosophy handed to obedient sheep. The Death of consciousness.

[flyattic]

@immayhem I will read it. But firstly the venus project is voluntary, it wouldn't work otherwise. Open source is the exact thing the venus project is modeled after. Everything is developed with global cooperation with no centrilisation of human power. Only Resource management is done via computer, and this computer is not built with AI (there is no need). The venus project is one mans vision, but this is basically to get people thinking in the right direction. The scientific basis is sound

[immayhem]

@flyattic In my understanding, far more than resource distribution would be determined by a central computer. Things like reproduction, etc.

I have listened to many interviews with JF and his partner. And I have not failed in noticing the dogmatism and lack of conscious awareness in his/her speech.

AI? - sure, it's on the menu. One reason I'm leery about VP. Elevating technology to a level of worship. Check into the transhumanist movement. Ray Kurzweil.

The archons want to rule the world.

[flyattic]

@immayhem It is my understanding that resource distribution and any job that requires drudgery would be delegated to non sentient machines leaving human minds free to explore. Birth control is always a difficult subject, it would have to be done through education. I am totally against sentient AI and transhumanism, if these were part of the VP i wouldn't go near it. I have seen no mention of it in any VP literature. If we continue down our current path though then transhumanism is certain

[immayhem]

@flyattic transhumanism is probably certain anyway. those people are working pretty hard on it. i favor a movement towards decentralization, in any case. Open Source approaches, philosophically speaking, is a benign enough point of agreement for us. I have spoken to other VP enthusiasts who are pretty scary. Cooperation, unity in diversity, tolerance - good.

Collectivism, majority rule, bureaucracy - scary.

[flyattic]

@immayhem Also THX1138 is one of my favorite films and made me very wary of the V project at the start. Once i read deeper and began to realise citys would be formed by communitys and through education with no central power my mind began to explore. A resource based society IS the future (we have reached peak everything), it's merely a question of wether we all decide to build our own equal society like the VP or let TPTB make one for us that would look just like THX or this perfect day.

[flyattic]

@immayhem Just as another point. Extremity in thinking is not dangerous. It is only if that extremity is not scientifically sound. For instance the world is not round and flat at the same time, it is round and not flat. Thinking the world is flat not round IS dangerous. We look at people with extremity of certainty now as if they are tyrants due to our conditioning, this has over time developed a middle ground where people don't believe anything they are told and are paralised by fear.

[immayhem]

@flyattic absolutism is dangerous - (so is relativism) We agree that religion is crazy. It's an absolute stance. Philosophical discussion I don't have room for here.

Grab a 4 ft. level and set it on the ground. The world can be 'flat' in a world-view that is compartmentalized... Left-brained, apart from the whole. The world is round - and as we are to discover, all is interconnected. Right-brain wisdom. Technocracy digitizes and further compartmentalizes human experience. Look at Jacques bldgs.

[flyattic]

@immayhem Whilst I agree with you on many levels, it is exactly your type of thinking that is required inside any VP movement. The VP is liquid, it will change with every new piece of science that is discovered. I'm sure we can both agree that the current monetary system is appalling, and the current world we live in is filled with injustice. Can you describe to me a way of getting rid of money and moving toward global resource sharing without any computer programs of any kind?

[immayhem]

@flyattic not that i know of.

of course we need technology. as far as global resource sharing - I don't know. a good beginning would be a value-based currency. rather than a debt-based currency.

[flyattic]

@immayhem In regards to resource distribution it will require global education on the beauty of sharing (which is naturally inherent in human behavior). A computer would decide using all available data which city needs what most. For instance a city that needs a new water processing plant would have precedence over a city that needs a new golf course. The venus project would never be perfect but it would be leaps and bounds above anything we have today. And thats what matters.

[flyattic]

@JamieWayneRothery Please elaborate. Personally I think the venus project system makes the most logical sense of any i have heard.

[boumar19721972]

@flyattic Problem with monetary system is that only the money lent is created not the interest money. So bankruptcies and defaults are unavoidable. It's a big scam.

[Lordgout]

The guy is a genius. People need to think and take his ideas more seriously unless everyone likes the idea of world war 3 and violence on the streets?

[tvcrunkfool]

@Lordgout if people dont start listening to people like this violence in the streets is the only way things can change

[EasternMerchant]

@Lordgout Jacques Fresco's world would save my life literally! I am now unemployed and have osteoporosis at 34, but I can't qualify for disability since my Doctor is too greedy and lazy to do the paperwork. I can't get a job because no employer will allow me to take many breaks to rest my back, I have no skill, Though I have faithfully paid taxes for the last15 years of my employment, I see absolutely NO BENEFIT from my tax contribution to the Federal Government and will probably be homeless.