MOW: Mary-Sues/Characters Part 2

[melsibrith]

I'm confused when people read books for the minor characters. In my own opinion, a book isn't worth reading if the main character is annoying or uninteresting. I have to spend the most time with that character, so I want to like them. It's like the "if we were the last people on earth" predicament. If you would pick a minor character to be the last person on earth with you (figuratively, within that book setting), that character should be the MC.

IMOP.

[PhantomZoner75]

I get why you do what you do when writing but I personally couldn't write like you do. I do analyze my characters to a point but I think going to the level that you go to when writing would take all the fun out of writing itself. I would lose my self to paranoia and rewrite my book so many times I would never get it finished if I stopped at every word to ask if my main character is a Mary Sue.

[NinjaOutfitInTheWash]

@PhantomZoner75 That's what published writers do. They have to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite. But of course if writing is just a hobby and something you do just for fun you don't have to worry so much about it. But the reason why for example twilight is so bad is because it was never really meant to be published, and the author only wrote for her own pleasure. Really good litterature is a lot more thought through and takes a really intelligent author.

I think Melinda would write amazing books

[Icy199512]

This character chart is amazing and I personlly thank you for it because its funny as your writing is you learn things about your own characters that you never knew yourself.

[1998sara]

I love making insane characters.... i think im disturbed

[NVGZBreta]

My characters don't smoke or drink....some of the questions I can't answer!!! Is that bad? (My characters are kids mostly...!)

[chipmunkspy5]

thank you for the links they were very helpful :)

[hotwhire]

I think you need to do a vid on what makes a character "badass" and what makes a character annoying or overpowered.

[ElenaTheMonster]

My character is an alien living with her family in Earth. Her family has been banned from their home planet, but my character has no idea that her parents had been banished from Earth long before she was born. They're disguised as humans, and my character and her brother go to regular elementary school as humans, and they're outcasts, yet they don't care at all. They retaliate to the bullying in a humorous manor. If they're called a name, they retaliate with a witty comeback.

[123naruhina]

Question:Since my character is a teenager, can't I skip some questions? [Like the smoking, drinking, the children, ect] [Though I do have a pregnant teen in one story]

[TheOwlking1996]

Examples from my character:

Has wings/can fly- Puts strain on his back

Can control peoples minds- Gives him searing headaches

Not really a big one but

Handsome- has a little bit of a stomach

[123naruhina]

Unless that character is young like a kid...I couldn't fill some in since it's for adult characters.

[Sharonxxx56]

Thanks so much :) You've given me loads to think about my characters! I never knew about this kind of stuff!

[HellAngelsBells]

Is speaking your mind at inappropriate times and being quick to fly off the handle good character flaws? My character Ash Baker miraculously (not intended) started making smart ass comments as I was writing, and now I just can't stop the sarcasm with that character. Character flaw?

[fudgingahole9]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been writing my trilogy for years and I kept on having to backtrack because of not being able to keep my characters in order. That character chart is a lifesaver. Thank you. Now, I might actually be able to publish my book soon.

[12cherrysakura]

You have officially become my writing guru. But at the same time you've made me hate my character. So tell me: my character is 17, HIS name is Aiden, he's in the foster care system and he has been abused numerous times. Does that allow me to make him a loner? He just dosent want to get close to people, because he has lost faith in people. So is he Gary-sue?

[SlayerOfAmista]

I shared this video, because it rocks so much. :'D

[TheNerdyCanuck]

You touched on something I really hate: when characters have no valid likes or dislikes. I hate when a character is like, "I love homemade cookies and I don't like murder." No shit!!! Same with every other normal person. It just makes the character less unique, and I don't want to read about characters that aren't unique.

[EGLchan]

I have some webcomics in mind - too lazy to start working on them, lol - and the character aspects that you recommended are exactly like the ones that I've planned. :D What a coincidence! I don't like Mary Sues either, so I tend to try to create such.

[anjumaakafan]

hi, I'm sure you're sick of people asking you things but I have a question about a character's name. would it be a good idea and /or ironic to name a character Raven and have her be a popular, happy go lucky cheerleader? cuz so many people make Ravens and they're always goth or emo so I was wondering if it'd be interesting or if people would see the name Raven and immediatly put the book back.

[SpiritualFanatic]

(continued)

I have a family member who WAS alone in her life, she had no one to lean on, but she tried to keep a positive attitude and was naive. I mean she went through REAL abuse. But she took care of herself, she turned out to be sane. :)

So I just think this whole mary sue thing just seems to be a bunch of generalizations and such.

[SpiritualFanatic]

*sigh* These videos by far were the most hard to watch for me. Why? Because people have told me how suey my characters were and I didn't know what the hell a mary-sue was.

Just curious, in history, was there even a concept of a mary sue? Why are so many people now going, "Oooo your character is a sue!" I just don't really believe in the marysue concept. Sure, you don't want a perfect character, but just because a character is alone, it doesn't mean they are a sue.

[Veelez]

Your character being alone won't make them a Sue. A Sue is more of an accumulation of typical characteristics that makes your character cliché and unbelievable. It sometimes have to do with characters taken to the extreme. A character defined by their loneliness, and only that, and the way they mope around because of it is no interesting. A character who acts on it, like your relative, is. Some people tend to generalize the term. One characteristic is not enough to call a character a Sue.

[hotwhire]

@Veelez yes. Alone characters are okay. If they're only complaining or forcing you to feel sorry for them like Bloodshot the hedgehog or Sasuke then they suck. The reader needs to pitty them through the events or choices, not the writter.

[Veelez]

@hotwhire True. Any characteristic that feels too forced or even inflicted on the audience will render the character impossibly annoying, mary-sue or not. It is especially exasperating when this character's supposed inner misery does not fit their actual situation. Indeed, Sasuke is a good example of this. Last time I dared to check, he was not a brooding, loner guy with a dark past, but an irritating, overly vindictive brat.

[hotwhire]

@Veelez I mean with Vegeta, you either liked him or u didnt. And Bardock shown us WHY we like him rather then saying it. I hate sasuke simply becuase he doesnt do shit and tells us what he wants rather then shows us.he also has no legit reason to be a douche to naruto when he actually tries hard

[hotwhire]

@Veelez Goku is kind of a mary-sue cause everyone just loves him for nothing deeper then him saving their lives. DBZ did do any real social introductions to the characters.

[Veelez]

As for these videos being hard to watch... well, try to see it that way: if your characters are, indeed, Sues, you can now improve them and watch yourself so you won't fall into the Mary-Sue traps. Melina here listed things to avoid, so it could help you. About the concept, I don't really know if it's official, but it's just a name put on evidence. It was named after the character of a satire fanfiction of Star Trek in 1973 created by a woman who mocked unrealistic characters in stories.

[mayahnati]

Awesome video and thanks for the links! Now I can do a decent profile of my characters and think exactly how they are. Especially the flaws part, I really need to fix this...

[AutumnTwilight06]

dang girl, you make me seriously re-evaluate the way i write!

[gruslen]

I'm sorry to bother you, Melina, but I've been watching your videos for awhile and I can see that you know what you're talking about. My character, while not a marysue, has a sue's name. I gave her the name Silver and she's from a clan. She was given the name because of a physical characteristic, but the name still comes off as sueish. I need a name for her that reflects her that doesn't sound too feminine. If it helps any she is often associated with a dragon. Do you have any name suggestions?

[whitewolfalicara]

I used an author insertion for my novel, but its not for my benefit, its on purpose, just as Paulo Coelho did to himself in The Alchemist (one of my favorite books of all time). My protagonist is basically me, but portrayed through a different, more interesting life. She is not perfect, she has more flaws than anything, she has no love interest, she is not a stereotype and she is the character to probably suffer more than anyone.

However, she is still a portrayal of me. Is she a Mary Sue?

[darknesstherentmore]

Until now I just thought you're a genius, now I know you're most positively one. A very well thought and balanced rant on character development. Thanks for the links, they were very helpful, especially in secondary characters building. ^^ Keep up the good work.

[KillerLoli88]

I have 18 OC's and I'm proud of each one of them. xD

[bookwormfaeriegirl]

Great video and thanks for the links. I should start paying more attention to the characters. I also think a character having multiple talents could be a potential issue. It's okay if a character has multiple talents,but too much talents can be seen as unrealistic. Also having a character be a master at something when they have no proper training might not work. Does this make sense? By the way, how come you don't like Harry?

[DarkKendall]

Is it a bad thing for a character to be hipcritical?

[MelinaPendulum]

It isn't as long as its seen as a flaw

[DarkKendall]

Since when is being a hypocrit a good thing?

[MelinaPendulum]

I mean its a good character flaw

[JMMPR24]

Yeah, a character being a hyocrite is good as long as they're shown as flawed. Unlike, say..that family in the FBoFW comic strip, who act like jerks, but their neighbors/friends act like they're the best family in the world.

[DarkKendall]

I enjoy listening to your rants while writing.

[Kenichiai]

I'm doing that right now. XD

[DarkKendall]

Is it a good thing if you're writing from the point of view of someone, if they were real, that you absolutely loath? Because right now, she's pissing me off to no ends....

Not in a mary sue way, just in a very malicious way.

~Kendall

[littlekitsune1]

6:39 - 6:46 Smeyer is a Mary Sue, then. =)

[SteveeAlbino]

Thanks melina for the characters charts awesomeness

[lemonluver99]

The song at the beginning of your videos ROCKS!

[BastasGirl]

Thanks so much for the character chart! I love watching your videos, your arguments are always very balanced and well backed up!

[animechic02]

Im in love with your thoughts your a genius

[TriniGoonerChic]

Wow, I must say that you are awesome, ur video's are soooo helpful!

[LucySanchez90]

quick question: Does bitchy-ness count as a flaw? Because My main starts off as a bitchy, spoiled brat who over the course of the series learns to be more humble and to appreciate those she loves.

She also can't control her newly developing powers well. They just randomly burst out of her... is that a flaw?

[MelinaPendulum]

As long as the people around her are annoyed by her bitchy-ness then it is a flaw. The second part is also a flaw ^^

[LucySanchez90]

Wow, you comment back fast!

Awesome, because in the first book, her family and friends are extremely annoyed by her bitchy-ness. ^^

[MelinaPendulum]

It's cause I have no life (Don't tell the twi-hards shhh)

And that is perfect, because then it is a genuine flaw.

[LucySanchez90]

Sweet.

Don't feel bad, once my daughter's in bed, that's the end of my evening activities.

One last thing, and I'll go back to lurking.

My character has three love inerests in the series. BUT she only actively pursues one of them, and that ends in the second book. (four books in all) The other two are fairly ambiguous in their attraction, and she doesn't really think of them that way. And although romance is key in the story, it's not the main focus of the main's life.

[MelinaPendulum]

Well there are a few things I would just say:

Although more than 1 love interest doesn't equal sue as long as you make sure that is is only after one its okay.

Also, don't have the guys she doesn't like be pinning for her constantly. They can be active, but also let them move on a little or at least try to

[LucySanchez90]

Ok. Guy she pursues pines a bit, but does get over it.

Supernatural guy who likes her is intrigued by her, but doesn't pine. He pledges his devotion, but in more of a proffesional kind of way. He also tries to seduce her when he's first introduced, but it's because he's trying to get rid of her for the villain. Human guy who likes her isn't really an active character, and doesn't pine, but wants to take their friendship to the next level. The only active romances don't involve her.

[Mermann87]

Thankyou soooo

much Melina

I am soo going to the link

you have no idea how helpful this will be..

~Pau

[lannapeanut]

Another thing people don't realise that makes a Mary Sue is the way other characters react to the main character.

Take Bella in Twilight for example - all of her "flaws" (clumsyness, excessive blushing, shyness etc.) aren't treated as flaws, instead they're used to make her seem more charming and make the other characters love her more. In real life, those flaws are not treated as they are in Twilight.

The characters have to react to flaws in a realistic way. =/

[zephyrvampire]

I have a question, what really counts as a character flaw? I just want to hear your opinion on it.

[XDreamingX]

Thats why the main character in my book is 1) scared of everything (toward the begining atleast) 2) has little to no self-confidence, 3) isn't a ditz, but always manages to nearly get killed, 4) HAAAAAAAAATES being center of attention

[sexfanatic]

u should make this a vid response to part 1

[silkybunny]

This is a great vid! Thanks for the links and resources, I'm going to look into those.

Have you heard of the Mary Sue Litmus Test? It's a pretty funny set of questions meant to rate the sue-ness of a character.

One last thing, then I swear this comment's done! You said your book was by Nancy Kress. She's one of my favorite sci-fi authors ever!  Just wondering if you were familiar with any of her short stories?

Thanks again for the great vid!

[MelinaPendulum]

IMO, the Mary Sue Litmus Test doesn't work because people try and justify their character as they do it

[silkybunny]

As a writing tool, it doesn't work so well, but I think it's really funny as a sort of commentary on sue-ness.

[gruslen]

Really? i used it and I was very blunt with everything(I made sure I didn't justify anything) and my character scored a twelve. *shrugs*

Personally, I think it's a good tool in the right hands.

[Littlelindarose]

It was the Writing *what* Series?

[MelinaPendulum]

Great fiction

[Littlelindarose]

Thank you. ^w^

[disneyjasmine01]

I love these "Melina On Writing" videos. I swear you're the only mature teenager I've ever met.

Though, I shouldn't be talking. I'm pretty immature for 12 lol

[Lecinea]

Nice vid! and a very useful character chart, the only thing that bothers me is the question "Reason or meaning of name"

that question always irritate me, just because alsmost everyone keeps forgetting that a name doesn't make a character. Parents give the name when the character is born, and they do not know how he or she will turn out.That's why you have popular kids and geeks who share names.A name is subjective. So remember everyone, The character makes the name and not the other way around.

[MelinaPendulum]

Well sometimes names are symbolic for a number of reasons. For example in rl, my real name is my late grandmother's first name. So reason doesn't always have to be symbolic, it could just be 'why do you want this name'. ^^

[DivineGrief]

I have to admit that J.K. Rowling is guilty of that fact. Like "Sirius", the dog star, or "Bellatrix", the warrior star. "Remus Lupin", did you think his parents knew he would turn into a werewolf?

[MelinaPendulum]

lol. Names can be used for symbols and I think that is fun when you can connect the two, but sometimes, it doesn't work because its too...*thinks* obvious.

[DivineGrief]

Agreed.

[VampTramp123]

This is great! Thanks for the advice as always! I also wanted to know what about nicknames for charactors? I have a charactor named Louise but, through out the story her close friends call her Lulu. Is that not too strange of a nickname?

Thanks again Melina!

[MelinaPendulum]

Thats totally fine. One of my characters HER nickname is Larri XD

[BurningMyDreams]

I've taken a month off my writing, now with fresh eyes, I am reading to step back into my world and write, but now since watching this video and with the chart available, I am going to print it out and see what I can build from the memory of the three characters I have for the book. You are a doll. Thanks again, Melina!

[DividualConsequence]

Hoorah! I finally got an account! Mostly so I could subscribe to you. :D

I love this little series, but it does make me feel a tad nervous. I don't do charts and things, though, going to the chart, I could breeze through the questions no problem. I know people write in different ways, so would you say that, as long as I have the ability to answer these questions, am I okay?

I do find myself awfully good at avoiding Sues. I love torturing my characters and adding faults.

[MelinaPendulum]

The chart is just a guideline and you don't HAVE to write it all out. However as long as you can answer the questions you are good.

[goblingirl13]

See, for me having a character be the exact opposite of me is so hard, becasue I'm so fickle.I'm not quite sure of who I am yet. My mind changes so much at times that its a running joke in my circle of friends that have several personalities. lol One day, Im all "oh the worlds issues should be solved with talk and negotiation, and the next day,I'm like "CARPET BOMB THE FUCKERS!" The character I've been talking to you about however, she is different than me in some sense. She's more timid.

[MelinaPendulum]

Well, I think in that you have found a character. You are fickle and not quite sure of yourself. Then have someone who is secure and opinionated with unwavering values. ^^

[jusk8lp]

wow...this would really help me! thanks! i've been writing a novel since i was 15. it's a great story so far but suddenly, i'm worried my protagonist is bordering on being a Mary-Sue. lol

[1000huzzahs]

great references. This will help me out a lot with my comic book writing, which is very much character-based.

[BearGirl26]

LOL I totally love how you referenced Twilight. Hey, that Character Chart in the description is very interesting. Shame that Stephenie Meyer didn't use it. xD Especially on her secondary characters. Jasper is arguably the most interesting character in the Twilight series. He actually has visible flaws and admirable traits. Nice video. Will comment more if something pops up in my head.

[SteveeAlbino]

LOL if stephenie meyer used a chart system and some writing skill she may turn out a better writer