Public Option

[jaydigory]

America is the only 1st world nation that does not have some sort of public health care. We are the only nation with an entirely profit based insurance industry and we have the most uninsured people and the highest health care costs. Most 1st world nations have a mix of profit and non profit health care. The more options we have the better! If a public option existed I would still keep my work insurance, but I am luck to have that option. 47 million aren't that lucky. What about them?

[freedomsdreem]

Why should we compare ourselves to other nations that have 'public health care' when our form of health care is far superior?

If all you are concerned about is the money and the coverage of 47 mil.. then focus your efforts there. ... ballooning government has worked how many times in the past?

[jaydigory]

Our form of health care is not superior! Talk to anyone. ANYONE. Who has lived in western europe and ask them which is better. Plus this IS about the money. This is about how to create a system of health care that everyone can afford to access. The issue is not "public" vs. "private" there are many shades of gray available that mix the two. I compare the US to other nations because a mix is used very successfully all over the world. Why ignore those places that it is working?

[freedomsdreem]

I have lived in western Europe 3 times... for over 2.5 years.. and next month will be getting an apartment in France... I think I can speak a little of the systems there. Especially considering the fact that I've lived in 6 countries and been to 26... my undergrad is a degree in political studies. I know what to look for in political systems.

Have you ever studied the UK's system? It doesn't sound like it. Just do some research.

You have plenty of opinions, but no facts, and no experience.

[jaydigory]

I live in Oregon. We have had a state based public option for insurance for years and socialism hasn't taken root because of it. I was on the Oregon Health plan for a few years after I graduated from college. Once I got a job that had a good health plan, I dropped the oregon plan and now I get it from work. It REALLY helped me when I needed it and I have had no negative problems because of it. That was my real life experience, its not hypothetical debate. It is actual experience.

[freedomsdreem]

That's great... I also heard the story about the woman they killed up there because it was cheaper for the suicide pills than for the treatment... sounds like great healthcare to me.... maybe we should have it everywhere.

[jaydigory]

Your post is directed at the public option of the health care proposal and one of your main points is that we should not be addressing all 300 million people, only the 47 million without insurance. My point is that that is precisely what the public option is doing. It is a solution for the people who don't already have it. It is of no use to those who already do. Demonizing the public option just makes no sense to me. Its isn't socialism, its just a different source of insurance. Period.

[freedomsdreem]

Why is the government needed in it? Where does the government get it's authority to be involved in business ventures that compete with the private sector? (which section of the Constitution does that fall under again.. I forget?)

The government get's it's authority to govern from the people. (We the people...) The people don't have the right to do a lot of what's spelled out in the bill... so how could that right be passed on to the government?

[jaydigory]

I don't want to live my life enslaved to concepts created over 200 years ago. The world is entirely different than it was when the constitution was written. Mass communication alone is a complete deal changer. The gov't is needed because For-profit companies will never create access for those who can't afford it. Why would they? It is wrong that many, many hard working people cannot afford health insurance. Should we just ignore that?

[jaydigory]

I just don't think that providing a public funded form of health insurance is as extreme as you seem to think it is. Do the Police compete with private security companies? I would say that the gov't has the authority to provide basic services to its people that are not being provided by the private sector. 47 million people are not being provide for and they need to be. Do you expect blue cross to really give a damn? This isn't an Ayn Rand novel. These are 47 million real people.

[freedomsdreem]

A) you don't know what socialism is

B) The government has no business doing anything in the private sector.. period.

C) why is this an emergency now? Where is the fire? what is so important that obama and his cronies have to get this bill passed before everyone can read it and make changes?

*Read the bill.

*Learn about socialism

*Understand how leaders take more power

*Read the constitution

*Then you should understand why Obama doesn't like the Constitution

[jaydigory]

Thanks for your response. I want to bring up a couple of points. First, Socialism is an economic system. It isn't a type of government. You are confusing communism with socialism. They are not the same thing and the idea that the US will ever be communist is unrealistic. Health care reform and wealth redistribution have nothing in common. We need more options than just profit based insuance companies who only care about profit.

[freedomsdreem]

Actually, you're quite incorrect. The fact that socialism focuses on economic systems does not confine it to economics. Socialist governments are a 'type of government'. .. they are midway to Communism... you can't assign socialist and communist economic systems without the government to go with it.

Obama's health care system is the redistribution of wealth. How is it not?

The framers of the constitution did everything they could to make socialism unconstitutional for a reason.

[jaydigory]

I concede, that you are using socialism is an appropriate manner. Sorry. So many people are throwing that word around like dynamite that I jumped the gun.

However, I just think the US can more leaps and bounds in the general direction of socialism and still not be anywhere close to a socialist nation. Ideas that are somewhat socialist in nature can be applied in a capitalist setting and be beneficial. I honestly think the US is gone too in the capitalist direction. I believe in a middle road.

[Jacksonholenativ]

CONservativism is all about Capitalist greed. When you take capitalism and mix it with healthcare you've got a bad mix. Capitalism has little to no business in our health care system. Read the book The Healing of America A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care by T.R. Reid. Freedomsdreem (wrong way to spell dream) appears to be pretty arrogant in his tone here. Even those of us who do have health care, it is far TOO EXPENSIVE!!!

[freedomsdreem]

I can scream that socialism is all about elite greed. Look what Obama said... He's already got health care (better than any you or I will ever see ... and he doesn't pay a dime or ever will)...

That's the beauty of the Constitution.. it was designed to protect us from our worst selves. .. unfortunately.. we have allowed laws to be created that circumvent it those controls.

And Universal Health Care is cheaper?

please show me your reference for that.

[Jacksonholenativ]

Different people interpret the constitution differently. That's one main reason we have a Supreme Court who's rulings are the law.

[freedomsdreem]

One quick point here..when you speak of conservatism you should understand that there are fundamental differences between some conservatives (and the way they view the world). There are a lot of greedy liberals out there too (just look at the way Congress votes themselves raises).

I happen to be a Constitutional Conservative. That means I want the government to run the way it was designed under the constitution.

PS.. I spelled dream incorrectly on purpose, but thanks for pointing that out

[Jacksonholenativ]

Yes there are some limosine liberals as they put it (greedy Democrats) but the GOP takes the cake.

[jaydigory]

I agree there are various conservatives. The Neocon repub party of today is nothing like the republican party of the past which would almost be considered libertarian in today's light. I think there is far too much demonizing of both libs and con when in reality most people are moderates. The definitions of the past are inaccurate when set in a technology driven present. That is why I am skeptical about the continuing value of the constitution. It is too easy to make it sing to a personal tune.

[freedomsdreem]

You obviously don't know the main purpose of the constitution then. It was set up to counter all the dirt bags we have in office right now.

I'm going to give you the big secret to the Constitution... are you ready.... you really need to find this out on your own:

THE CONSTITUTION IS DESIGNED TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE FROM LEADERS WHO WANT MORE POWER.

[amasra56]

It is obvious that you are either increadibly stupid or totally ignorant...Public option is just that, "option" you idiot!...No body or government is taking anything away from anybody with insurance. Insurance monopoly does not want any competition. That's all.This government is offering a solution to our horrible and just about to be bankcrupt system by creating a uniquely American system we all desperately need. Study, think and learn about the issue before you make these false statements.

[freedomsdreem]

Look... I don't mind you posting comments here... but I don't tolerate name calling. When You speak of getting an education... act like you have one yourself if you want to have a meaningful debate.

Now to your comment: You are telling me that the government will provide 'competition' to the private sector? Is that what you're saying? That's a new one. Have you seen any of this bill? Please obtain a copy of whatever pages you can from your congressman and read it... then come back.

[jaydigory]

Please answer this question for me. I honestly do not understand it. Why do you assume that everyone would be forced to accept public insurance if it was available? Why do you think the gov't would choose to provide insurance for people who already have it? Just as you said, that would not be cost effective. Why are so many people convinced that that is the goal of a public option? I don't get it.

Thx

[freedomsdreem]

Why... if only 47 million people need health care (and 260 million have it already..). Did they propose a 'universal' health care solution to begin with? ... which is what they proposed.

That is what they proposed.. and that's why I think it's the goal.

There are also penalties for not moving into the government option.

The word here that I'm going to use is socialism. You can look for a common definition, I'm going to focus on one aspect:

[jaydigory]

What penalties? Please name a few of these penalties. Who profits from forcing people to take gov't insurance? Obama? Congress?

Well, I'll tell you who profits from blocking any health insurance reform and that is the for-profit insurance companies who are currently controlling the show. I live in a state with a public option health insurance and believe me...please believe me...the gov't does not want to insure people who can get it else where. That is utterly ridiculous.

[freedomsdreem]

Hey... I agree with you on the insurance companies. They are taking advantage of the current system --and the consumer is losing out. Who made the rules under which they are operating? You guessed it... CONGRESS. And I also agree with you that if we could get it elsewhere we would... but who made that impossible?... CONGRESS. Look, I'm not against Obama.. I donated to his campaign. I'm against some of these provisions... tonight's speech was vague.. but the bill isn't. Look it up... I am.

[freedomsdreem]

Socialism is the attempt to equalize the outcome of efforts;in America our Constitution provides for equality of opportunity.

Socialized medicine seeks to provide the 'equality' of health care.

Obama is a socialist and that has been his platform. If he only needs to provide for 47 mil, then why not design the system that way? No one is doing that ...are they?

Instead they are trying to design for 300 mil., claiming that 'the entire system is broken'. It's not broken, it's just not equal.

[jaydigory]

Universal Health Care does not mean one health care plan for everyone. It refers to the idea that everyone should have access to some form of health insurance and health care. The plan I support allows multiple forms of access, both private and public. The plan being presented by Obama is to provide multiple forms of access.

[freedomsdreem]

That's great that the plan you support has multiple forms of access etc... but does the plan Obama supports?

Have you read the bill? It's online you know.

[jaydigory]

If you think that the constitution is a golden ticket that provides everyone with an equal shot at the prize you are seriously deluding yourself. If everyone were born into an equal playing field that would be true. How does the constitution help some dirt poor kid, born to deadbeat parents compete with another kid born to middle class parents living in a rich suburb? Is it the kid's fault for the situation he was born into? That kid will never even learn how to compete.

[freedomsdreem]

Have you read the constitution... ever?

and what you just stated here is a bunch of socialist rhetoric. The socialist-democrats have been feeding that line of bull for so long that you think it's true.

Read the constitution then ask yourself if it were implemented properly how anyone could not have equal opportunity.

But read the constitution... I'm willing to bet you don't even know the purpose of the document.

[freedomsdreem]

I hope that answers your question.. (you'll have to read them from oldest to newest)... but I'm not sure why such a thing is not obvious to you. Have you not been to a socialist country or do you not understand what socialism is? Have you never heard Obama when he speaks of 'wealth redistribution'? Most of what he puts forward is of a more socialist nature.

[jaydigory]

I have heard Obama speaking about higher taxes for the rich and I understand your point. But I don't take it to the extreme end you seem to take it. The rich get many many tax breaks they don't deserve at the expense of the middle and lower classes. I believe Obama is speaking to that, not trying to turn us socialist. What we need is to re-equalize the system that favors the rich. Obama wants to keep what he has earned as much as you or I do. He is not a socialist he is just observant.

[freedomsdreem]

Listen to yourself. You are even talking about 'requalizing' the system. THAT IS SOCIALISM

Socialism is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.... do you know why the founding fathers made it that way? they wrote a ton of documents about it... you should look it up.

Yes... this means Obama is a socialist just like you.

Have you ever been to or lived in a socialist country or even read how they operate? Please at least read an accurate account before talking about the merits of it.

[freedomsdreem]

By the way... I do enjoy discussing this with you... I do hope you'll look up the references I gave you. I never believed George Bush, why would I believe Obama?