The tension in MacArthur's theology is not between limited atonement and universal gospel proclamation, as he asserts. It is between limited atonement and the well-meant offer. The belief that the gospel is a sincere OFFER of salvation to ALL of humanity, when Christ did not die for ALL of humanity, is the very defintion of insincerity. The gospel is not an offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of salvation for the elect family of God.
The nature and extent of the Atonement is summed up in 1John 2:2 ! All the Elasticized Calvinistic (or is that Calvinastic? Calvinism combined with gymnastics) Hermeneutics collapse in the face of its declaration of the universal offer of atonement.
@CBALLEN You don't understand Romans 9--- you rip verses 6-22 out of their immediate context and I'm willing to bet you've never taken the time to look up all the OT references Paul quotes in the chapters 8-11, have you? Because if you do they will clearly reveal your error if you're willing to understand the argument Paul is making.
Yep, and in your view... your calvinist god could have created you just to think you're saved, so you can wait until the end and realize you're not really saved nor were you ever so you can glorify him by the fact that he tricked you by his revealed will versus his secret will while you're burning in hell.
The calvinist god deserves no glory, especially because he doesn't get it by love and truth--but by force, eh emmm... I mean "sovereignty" in your definition.
@droptozro Did God intentionally create people who had no hope?Yes He did. Are you an Open Theist who thinks God didn't know the sheep from the goats even before He created them?
God created all people with the ability to choose. No I'm not an open theist, but foreknew doesn't always mean "knowing the future"--it CAN mean that, but many times it has to do with knowing from before. I can foreknow someone from my past.
A false teaching in Calvinism is that foreknowledge = forecausation, but that's not true. Just because Isaiah for example knew the future through prophecy, doesn't mean he caused it.
See, you avoid the claim also below--you know it's possible
@droptozro To Know in a Biblical sense means to have sex with for humans or have an intimate relationship for God .God FOREKNEW His people or had an intimate relationship with them before they were ever Created.He chose a finite number of people to save before creation and a finite number not to save and then He created them in their own times.Paul tells believers in Eph 1 that God had chosen to save them all in Christ before the foundation of the world as He did all believers.Read all of Eph 1
@droptozro "Just because Isaiah for example knew the future through prophecy, doesn't mean he caused it."
Isaiah is not God,Isaiah got all his prophecy from God who not only knows the future,but has planned it all as well.Isaiah 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
@droptozro Arminianism is man ruling over God,saying"I will do all I please and if I want to be saved God must wait on me,He cannot do anything without MY permission"It's a man centered gospel that is no gospel at all.
Talk about a straw-man, and I'm not Arminian. Your arguments are based on false premises and teachings, no one's ever said God cannot do things without our permission.
You're not even consistent with your own views, for IF the Calvinist god were true--it's not even POSSIBLE to have a man-centered gospel apart from the Calvinist gods decrees that it occur---meaning your god wants this teaching, even though it's wrong.
@droptozro Say what?Like all Arminians you believe that you had to muster up a faith in Christ while you were still an unGodly sinner then you traded this man made faith to God for His salvation,in other words,saved by FAITH through Grace.God furnishes both the GRACE and the Faith,it is God alone who justifies a man and finally glorifies him.
"...then you traded man man faith to God for His salvation"
No one's ever said this, -you really need to back down and ask questions before you make false premises. You're giving commitments to my side that aren't even true---this is the epitome of straw-manning. If you cannot even be reasonable and defend your side properly and answer the question, there's no point to quarreling with you. Debate is fine, but you're not answering objections, it's like talking to a wall.
@droptozro I'm sorry,I thought you were an open theist,but I presume you are really just a Molinist,there's really no difference,man decides the out come in both ,right? Are you aware that the Roman Catholics who invented Molinism have even abandoned it?You claim that God didn't know His sheep before Creation,nor the goats,so how do you square this with an all knowing God?
I've not even studied Molinism... heard it slightly in the past but never taken the time. I just stand on Scripture, and the fact that God knows the future doesn't mean He caused every little thing by decree. That's a non-sequitur. If God revealed a judgement to me by vision, and said He will bring it to pass--then YES, in that instance God will have caused that judgment. But to take that and say He must control everything or He's not sovereign is not logical.
@droptozro In essence you are preaching that Jesus died only as the vehicle that anyone can use as a means to save themselves.Jesus is like a car or a bus that MAN uses as a way to get from point A earth to B Heaven,but it's entirely up to man,he is the master of his destiny alone.You teach against the truth of scripture and for God's dependence on man,to enact salvation.Man must give God permission to save him and without man's permission God is powerless to save anyone.It's man centered.
Macarthur makes a statement using the question; 'Who runs your spiritual life?' Answer: You make the decisions, Christ releases His power. You choose Christ guides. You decide, Christ gives Grace. You believe, Jesus Christ Saves. Plain human logic tells you that God can only hold men accountable, if they reject the offer of salvation, provided that each and every human being on earth was equally able of accepting it. I marvel at the continued brain wrestling of Calvinism.
@MilanPavkovic1 Jesus told a woman one time to "go and sin no more" Do you believe that she was capable of sinning no more? Why would Christ tell her to do something that she was incapable of doing? Men are not condemened based on having the ability to believe but not, rather that believing is the standard of God whether man is able to believe or not is irrelevant.
@MilanPavkovic1 said: "Plain human logic tells you that God can only hold men accountable, if they reject the offer of salvation"
This is the fundamental error in your theology. You rely on human logic instead of biblical revelation. Responsibility does not presuppose free will and there is no evidence in the Scripture (the authority over human logic) that Christ's saving atonement is effective only if man wills it to be effective.
@Proverbs1533 Because he is known to carry reform theology He should quoted the scriptures all the scriptures that deal with salvation.Jesus speaks the truth because he is the truth .For heaven sake the bible teaches the opposite of calvinism.....
@tgillspy2 If you have listened to John MacArthur at any extent you would realize that he constantly referencing Scripture in his sermons and teaching. It's interesting that you would criticize John for not referencing Scripture all the while asserting your own theology without Scripture.
@tgillspy2 John MacArthur believes what John: 3:16 teaches. It's just not your Arminian theology version. I understand though, I was once a John 3:16 Arminian whose entire theological understanding came from that one verse. We will probably never agree on this.
@Death4Note As far as freedom goes,what I mean is,man does exactly what He wants to do in his heart,now I know that things determine what I or others do,but it's not God causing our sin,it begins in our heart,yet I do believe that God will decide the sin we do,for instance,if I had in mind to cheat on my wife and there were two girls that I could choose from,I believe God would cause me to cheat with one over the other,for His purposes,but sin is what I wanted to do.
@tgillspy2 Bud,you're not believing or trusting in Christ,you're believing in self salvation and you twist or misinterpret the Bible to say that God would like to save everyone,but men just won't allow Him to,in other words, God needs man's permission to save him.God saves any and all He chooses to save.
17Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Hum,now who is causing these people to stray from God's way,who is hardening their hearts from fearing God?
@tgillspy2 This is how God set up the Exodus so He would free His people and destroy Pharaoh Psalms 105:24-25 And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes.whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
@tgillspy2 Ex 1:22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every son that is born to the Hebrews you shall cast into the Nile, but you shall let every daughter live.”As God said in Psalms this was HIS PLAN and at this time Moses was saved from the Nile by Pharaoh's daughter.So God decides the sins men will do and not do,as you see Moses was saved as God had also planned,since God would raise him up as a prophet for the people and would give His law through him
@tgillspy2 God's foreknowledge of the future is not something that He foresees or looks through time to LEARN,God's foreknowledge of the future is the knowledge of How He will have the future HAPPEN.His foreknowledge of people is the same thing,it's people that He has foreloved before creation and it is these who He set His love upon and it is these who Jesus came to die for and save.
@tgillspy2 You should believe what the Bible says,it's true you know?You are a Roman Catholic who believes you can earn salvation,when the Bible says you can't,it tells us that God has chosen His own and the will of man plays no part in his salvation,yet you believe that the will of man is exactly what determines ones salvation.You also don't believe that the natural man is dead in his trespasses and sin,unable to please God,you believe it is the will of a spiritually dead man that saves him.sad
@tgillspy2 Arminianism is another gospel,which is no gospel at all.Jesus is not a failure trying but failing to save all men,He will save all who He came to save,His People.There will not be one person in Hell that Jesus died for,I know you think there will be,sad.
@CBALLEN God so loved " some of the elect few in the world" that he gave his only begotten Son .....NO ! Now read John 3:16 KJV again.You are serious heretic cballen. I don't bow to strange God that you claim.God is not a liar....
@tgillspy2 John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only unique Son so that the believing ones would not perish but have ever lasting life.He died for the BELIEVING ONES,this is what it says in the Greek,this is what was actually written..It's true,Jesus only died for the believing ones,not the unbelievers,they all end up in Hell.
@tgillspy2 Seriously,do you really believe that people will be in Hell that Jesus died for?Is God a failure who loves those in Hell as much as those He will save? Here's the truth according to God.
Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
@tgillspy2 Election is a false doctrine, that can only be found in the Bible and nowhere else! We must thank god for our free wills, in which we can choose to live or stay dead daily. I was saved 7 times last month, but by the time the 4th of July rolled around I had fallen from grace. Thank you jesus for dying for everyone's sins in the whole world, even the reprobate in hell!
@zanmirrob Look, God created two finite groups,both are unchangeable,He created goats for Hell and sheep to save,He knew both these groups before creation.So God created all the goats with perfect knowledge of their end.so He did create people with no hope of Heaven.
@tgillspy2 "Just read John chapter 3 kjv. Reformed doctrine is worthless nonsense..."
I've read it,and what did Jesus tell Nicodemus?.You must be born again or born from above to see the kingdom of God.Now,tell me,did you have anything to do with being born naturally?No.So how does a man make himself born again?He can't,only the Holy Spirit can cause ones new birth,that's why Jesus used these words,because it leaves men helpless,belief can only follow the new birth,think man!
@tgillspy2 A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride.
@tgillspy2 "God doesn't decide what sin we do...."
Of course He does,He decides what sins are done and which sins are not done,this is how He makes sure all His will is done.He caused the Egyptians to hate His people so it would lead to Him bringing Pharaoh down before the world and He stopped Paul from going to Damascus and hunting Christians down by changing him into one! Why do you think persecution of the church always makes it grow?Because it's God's plan,that's why.
@Death4Note Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.This is where I get my belief on me wanting to sin,but God deciding which sin.
@Death4Note I do see what you mean though, when God has nothing but sinners to work with, He can direct our steps in those sins without sinning Himself.Even in the Lord's prayer Jesus says to pray lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one.God never tempts us,but secondary sources do all the time.
@MilanPavkovic1 Calvinists are so proud that they came up with a doctrine that says that beyond grace they are completely unable to do anything good and are completely unrighteous apart from Christ. Wow...how proud
@msb0000 No you need not be a calvinist to be saved :) but you will be wrong in many biblical teachings so could be a harm to somebody else s salvation
@Death4Note When God saves one sin has no more hold on them,all ones sin is forgiven ,past,present and future.If we sin we have an advocate,Jesus Christ.Of course this is not a licence to sin,God's proof that He has saved one is that the fruits of the spirit will be made manifest in the persons life and they won't want to live the way they used to.Is that kinda what you meant? I'm not sure exactly what you meant by freedom.
You said: "God had decreed all things in the past and man will "freely" do his decrees in the future." I completely agree with this I just don't see the point in calling it freedom. If you believe that God is all-powerful then one would have to be a dualist to suggest that there is another power other than God which causes things to happen. Dualism is blasphemy.
@Death4Note I don't believe in dualism.Keep in mind,nothing exists unless God made it,He even made Lucifer,but He made him mutable.The Bible also tells us that God planned the future and calls it to be,so He's not looking down through time to learn something.Whatever God's reason was for doing all He does is known to Him alone,and I just have to trust that and believe all He says even though I don't understand why He does all He does or the way He does it.We can't lean on our own understanding.
The tension in MacArthur's theology is not between limited atonement and universal gospel proclamation, as he asserts. It is between limited atonement and the well-meant offer. The belief that the gospel is a sincere OFFER of salvation to all of humanity, when Christ did not die for all of humanity, is the very defintion of insincerity. The gospel is not an offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of salvation for the elect family of God.
Both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong in the fact that they think they can impose human reason unto scripture. He is beyond understanding, and we can't systematize scripture into one giant intellectualized monolith. Both systems are right, yet they are wrong. Calvinism seeks to demonstrate the glory and sovereignty of God at the expense of human responsibility and choices, and Arminianism tries the opposite. It is a useless debate, accept the seemingly contradictory scriptures and move on.
NAME BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE IF WE DO NOT OVERCOME (this is by the Power of God of Course but we must be a part of it because WE ARE) John 3:16 WHOSOEVER WILL Then Means NOTHING in ETERNAL SECURITY & ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED! Eternal Security Stinks from the Pits of Hell!
you know why you have those kind of question cause you want to believe alie read revelations 22;17 who so ever WIIL means salvation is for those who believe and want to be saved
@boricua796 You can't take one verse in Revelation and ignore the rest of Scripture. John 6 says only those whom God draws can come to Christ. Romans 9 says God will mercy whom He mercies and harden whom He hardens. There is no mention of the free will of man in salvation anywhere in Scripture. We are saved by grace through faith and all of it is a gift of God. He gives us the ability to believe (faith) by which we are saved. Romans 3 tells us no one seeks God. God does it all.
He said men go to hell for unbelief-I thought Calvinists believe that some were predestined to Heaven and some were predestined to hell? MacArthur clearly dodges the question because it exposes the incongruity of the Scriptures and Calvinism.
@msb0000 There is absolutely no incongruity of the Scriptures and Calvinism. The incongruity exists when you use force your preconceived ideas into Scripture rather than allowing Scripture to interpret itself.
@msb0000 Both are correct because they are in agreement with one another. One has to have enough understanding of the original language to comprehend the difference between God's desire and God's decreed will. Peter used terminology that refers to God's desire. If you believe that God truly decrees that all men be saved, but is unable to make that happen, you serve a weak god, not the God of Scripture.
@metanoeo1 - Using that logic then, your god must be unloving to send His Son to die for SOME. Oh and by the way, The I'm-smarter-than-you tactic employed by Calvinists doesn't work with me. Jesus said the way of salvation is simple enough for a little child to understand. Go ask a 4-year-old what John 3:16 means.
@msb0000 Here we go with the emotional rhetoric that is not based in Scripture anywhere. I can guess you're going the "whosoever believeth" route with John 3:16. That word "whosover" doesn't exist in the Greek manuscripts in that verse. It literally says, "all the believing ones" or "all who believe" it's not an open door that anyone ever born has the possiblity to be saved. God is sovereign and our salvation rests completely in Him, not our choice, free wil or any other unbiblical idea
@metanoeo1 - There is an ingredient of free will that your statement fails to address. As John points out why the commandments? Without choice God's promise of salvation becomes moot.
We choose Christ, not by our strength, but by His - because He chose us when as yet nothing had been created, & will still be holding us when the universe is no more. If we wish to have free will, it must be in accord with His Will - so those who have not yet come to Him, have a lamed free will. How can we choose Him, if we do not have the grace to choose Him, that we need if we are to choose Him ?
@msb0000 said: "and how about when the Scripture says God is no willing that ANY should perish?"
With this Scripture, Calvinism is still correct. Your problem with this Scripture is your understanding of the word "any." Because of your theology you assume that "any" means every single person ever. But this is not the intent of the verse. It is speaking directly of the elect. You likely disagree but if your faith is in Christ you are saved.
@msb0000 clearly MacArthru didn't dodge the question. What really exists is that men deny what scriptures teach and hate God's Sovereign election. The author of this confusion is none other than Satan himself.
Well...what this amounts to is a frank admission of ignorance on the Doctrine of Atonement. At least the man is honest about it.
However, there is no reason to remain ignorant. The Bible speaks plainly on the subject. Even a little child can understand it.
Here's a question: Why do men so often think NUMERICALLY about sin, and the atonement thereof. Sin against an Absolute God cannot be measured in finite terms. Clue: Infinity , is NOT a number. ( ask any competent math professor).
The ruthless competition for survival in this world is made necessary by our need for training. Our sin - our disobedience and disloyalty - results in blood shed. God demonstrated that to Adam and Eve when He made clothes for them. We will never benefit from the lessons of mortality, as long as we blame our hardships on God. He gives us the choices, but we make them. We have just enough free will for Him to reveal us to ourselves.
@xxjaycxx1 So why is it all about Calvin? Especially seeing throughout the Bible God speaks about election, and the Book of Life was written before the fore knowledge of God, that means he wrote who would be saved before time began, he'd already chosen who He would save, and who would really choose God? Romans 3:11 "No one understands, and no one seeks God", so without God choosing whom to save we would all be condemned and deserving of a just and righteous punishment in our sin, ill pray for u
Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Please study before opening your mouth, this is talking about those who are trying to live under the law and not grace.
in other words everyone is corrupt and only by grace can they all be saved, do not just quote a verse read the whole entire word then you will see what it means and if you do not then pray GOD opens your eyes.
You are playing with GODs words and teaching what calvin taught not GOD.
@xxjaycxx1 Jesus didn't tells us to go to all the world and invite people to Jesus. Jesus sends his disciples into all the world to preach the gospel, that message which commands all to repent and believe in him whom the Father sent. This is not an option, it is not an invitation; it is a command. Jesus also revealed that only those whom the Father gives him will come to him.
the gospel is not an invitation, it is a command. it is the command of the King of Kings.
and yet no real answer you must be a calvanist lol, I bark up the right tree every time GOD give me the chance to shine his light on those who learn from men,and do not alloe the holy spirit to lead them,you insult me when I have not even insulted you,I said you are un learned and rightfully so you have no clue what GOD jesus or the Holy spirit, GOD himself is saying, and you post hebrew and greek like no one else can't do that, your clueless.
@xxjaycxx1 i used the Greek to prove your error in that passage: to point out the fact which you tried to discredit that the gospel is not an invitation but a command. the perverse translation of the NIV only demonstrates once again why it is indeed an abominable translation that likes to change, add and subtract words in its work. whereas the Greek in that passage clearly demonstrates that it is not 'to invite' but to 'bid' as the KJV translates in the sense of urgently commanding.
you use the greek to show me that you are unlearned, you choose things you have no knowledge of and for all the wrong purposes stop following one mans train of thought.
@xxjaycxx1 what a hypocrite: you have on numerous occassions pointed out the notion of 'freewill' which is a human tradition which has been taught for centuries; codified in Greek philosophy at the temple of Delphi, and propagated through the ages, and given greater focus since the early 20th century by the father of modern paganism: Aleister Crowley in his philosophy/religion/mysticism known as Thelema-a teaching which now reeks throughout western culture.
@xxjaycxx1 in fact if Aleister Crowley were alive he would love how his furthering of his ideals have reached so deeply into mainstream Christianity; for he would see in it the sure death knell of Christianity-or so he would hope. for it was one of his chief aims, as was elaborated on by Madame Blavatsky of the Theosophical Society to seek a way to dismantle the power and authority of God, the Bible and Jesus Christ. To which Crowley found the promotion of free-will to be the chief means to it.
@xxjaycxx1 the Lord God allowed me to spend many of my adult years in the heart of these traditions; only to be found by him in the way, to be shown that what i learned, studied and practiced in my humanistic days has practically overtaken all of Christendom. it is as the vision of Ezekiel when he was made to dig a hole through the temple to see all the wicked idolatrous practices going on in the house of the Lord. but now i have been made to see the same thing in practically every church.
@xxjaycxx1 you can call me unlearned, and speak all other manner of evil against me. but i cannot but testify of that which God has taught me, what his Spirit has shown me of the evil that is present in this day and age. to them that will hear it: Praise God! to them that won't, Praise God! i can only bear witness to how the Lord saved me. how on the day that he did, i wasn't confronted with an option, but was convinced and made to believe in the grace that was poured out upon me.
@xxjaycxx1 did God force his love upon me? Praise God he did. God chastened me sore like you wouldn't believe, until i was yielded and found wallowing in the misery of my life. God by his chastening mercy brought me to his cross; and it was there at that cross, where i lay dead in my own blood and vileness, that Christ said, Live, and it was there I began to live.
He did not force his love on you scriptures say,he did not do so, says he offers it you in your own free will must be willing to receive it.
Why would GOD go through what he went through for a select few? to think that GOD controls man like robots is ridiculous,you are reading to into the scriptures.
he Salvation has come to all who wants it. Although GOD knows many will not accept it,he has exercise his perfect mercy for all.
@xxjaycxx1 did God force his love upon me? Praise God he did. God chastened me sore like you wouldn't believe, until i was yielded and found wallowing in the misery of my life. God by his chastening mercy brought me to his cross; and it was there at that cross, where i lay dead in my own blood and vileness, that Christ said, Live, and it was there I began to live.
@xxjaycxx1 and if one takes a careful look at David's life, one will see that God left David in his sin for months before he visited him. For it wasn't but before Solomon/Jedidiah would be born that God sent Nathan to confront David. during which time God was dealing with David by leaving him alone to "When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer." Ps 32:3-4
@xxjaycxx1 in those months before David was confronted by Nathan, God was working repentance in David for that hour when he would visit him, in what Ezekiel called 'the time of love" (Ezek 16:8) where Hosea reveals the Lord would then speak comfortably to them that he has set his affection on, as demonstrated through his chastening love.
IN your mind GOD is controlling everyone like robots, weird, if GOD woks repentance in man then has that man truly repented I think not if GOD is playing puppet master,un learned.
Your new name is un learned until you truly learn,may GOD have mercy,and teach you the truth and pull you from being one minded with john calvin.
@xxjaycxx1 you have demonstrated once again no evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. before the world to see, there is only the evidence of arrogant condescension and vile slandering of one's neighbor. you are hereby blocked and thus ends any further conversation in obedience to the exhortation of Paul:
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Tit 3:9-10
@xxjaycxx1 the 'whosoever' of John 3:16 will only be those whom the Father has given to the Son. the 'whosoever' are all those who are the Shepherd's sheep-all of which will hear his voice and come to him. the 'whosoever' are those that believe. them that believe are those whom the Holy Spirit has given eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand the word by which faith is planted into their newly regenerated heart.
This verse right does not mean to a chosen few it means that salvation has been extended to all,no just one or two, or a chosen few but to all who recieves.
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
GOD would not be exercising his infinite mercy if it was only to a select few.
@xxjaycxx1 If God chose to save only one person and let the rest go straight to hell his mercy would remain abundant and abounding forever. The measure of God's mercy is not dependant on whether or not he offers salvation to the whole world or to those he chooses. That God chooses to be merciful period is.
If GOD show mercy towards 1 person and not to the world no his mercy would not be perfect,in order for it to be perfect it has to shown to all,once again you calvanist are so blinded by mr. calvin himself,stop listening to what a man says and learn the truth about what GOD is saying.
You sound ignorent and most calvanist do, you do not know how to interpret scriptures,you are clearly confusing free will,and what GOD has offered to all created by him.
@xxjaycxx1 you have declared your own ignorance. you stand in judgment against God that his mercy must be displayed according your own judgment of what makes him merciful. for the record: John Calvin said nothing new that hadn't already been declared by such disciples of Christ as Polycarp and most of the early church fathers. John Calvin who had been educated in all the ways of humanism was made, by the grace of Godl, to see the folly of it, and how it had infested the church.
@xxjaycxx1 it is you who have come to bow at the humanistic altar of free will, and have made all that you read in Scripture to bow to that altar. before the Holy Spirit stopped me in my ways; i spent my life literally as a priest in a pagan culture that exalted the will of man as supreme above all considerations. it is in fact this teaching which does damn souls faster than anything else. it is in fact the temptation of Eve when she was told she would be like God
@xxjaycxx1 you are here warned to flee from your own will, to crucify it with all that is you at the cross of Jesus Christ; that the only will that should stand above all is the will of the Father, to which even the Son himself was and is subjected to.
@xxjaycxx1 men do cry foul if God should force his love upon those who are otherwise hell-bound. yet these same men will find a man crazy who doesn't force himself upon his child to deliver him from whatever danger is set before them. men want the free will to choose if they will be saved. yet man who had no say when he was born, when he will die, somehow comes to think that he has a say in his eternal destiny. when God forces sinners into hell-he will be forcing them against their will into it.
@xxjaycxx1 Ezekiel 16 shows the extent of all those who are the Jerusalem of God; what there state was before the Lord passed by them.
you also know nothing of who i am; you know nothing of how the Lord stopped me in my rebellious ways. you know nothing how if it were not for the mercy of God upon my soul, i would still be on the road of rebellion which i charged at with my whole heart.
@xxjaycxx1 you were apparently less of a sinner than the rest of us. who only needed a little nudge. Jesus' death for you must have been over-kill, since you still had enough good in you to make the right 'free will' choice; unlike your neighbor or friend who were just to wicked to freely choose Christ to be their Savior. apparently you have never really known what it was to be truly dead in trespasses. you had enough life in you that you just needed some help, and you could do the rest.
@xxjaycxx1 When God showed mercy on David in putting away his sin of murder, while showing no mercy to king Saul for failing to destroy all that he was commanded to destroy; or when he showed mercy to the idolatrous practices of Solomon and Ephraim, but spared not Jeroboam or Ahab; it was because God chose to be merciful to whom he will be merciful.
you are not too bright,King david a man after GOD's heart why cause David repented of his sins, where saul never repented and was rebellious to GOD, so Saul once again chose his road by his own free will.
So what you have is a king that repents and a king that rebels please learn and i barking up the right tree,trust me it is you who have found someo one who knows and understands deeply the things of
@xxjaycxx1 you contradict the whole revelation of Scripture and even the testimony of David himself. David wasn't shown favor because of his goodness; for even David confesses that he was born in iniquity; that it is David who first declared that there is none righteous, there is none that seek after God-this included himself. it was but by the mercy of the Lord to David, according to the sovereignty of his will to be favorable to him.
@xxjaycxx1 Solomon was more wicked than Saul had ever been; but according to the promise God made to David, he would not utterly reject Solomon; but would chasten him as a son and would therefore keep him forever under the covenant of grace he had towards David.
one thing is clear; though we claim the same God by name in his Son Jesus Christ; they are clearly not the same gospel. your gospel trusts in the power of man's will to choose; mine in the power of God's will to save who he chooses.
Let me know where you are confused and the very scripture that is confusing you I will clarify what it means for you since you are having trouble understanding what GOD is saying.
The gospel, mean good news, good news of what? salvation, salvation from what? GOD's wrath,who is eligible for salvation? anyone who will recieve it,per the scriptures.
Find me where GOD or Jesus has ever said that only a select few,and I will tell what is being said, I know the scripture that is confusing you. But im a let you post it so I can break it down for you.
@xxjaycxx1 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Jn 12:40
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 1 Cor 4:3-4
Yes he blinded them because they chose what they wanted, so GOD gave them up to the very things they had desire,since they did not want to receive the truth just like you,he blinds them,once again learn what man receives by his own choices.
You my friend are blind and cannlt see,yet you think your holy,but truly blind and do not even know it.
But that your choice,your own free will has you following calvanist beliefs,not Jesus calvinist belief.
@xxjaycxx1 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Pet 2:6-8
@xxjaycxx1 your arrogance is indeed noted for all the world to see. it is sad that God didn't have you in the inner circle of the original 12 apostles, or even of the early church fathers. to imagine that God has left his church void of your wisdom in understanding the Scriptures. is truly amazing that the church has survived as many centuries as it has without your magnificent insight and instruction.
am curious what part of the fruit of the Spirit gives you such proud arrogance?
All that the Father gives me will come to me, (notice he says (all) that GOD gives) which means everyone.
and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Then notice( the free will of man), and (whoever) comes to me I will never cast away. (whoever) mean's (anyone), so (2 key words here ALL and who ever.
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The tension in MacArthur's theology is not between limited atonement and universal gospel proclamation, as he asserts. It is between limited atonement and the well-meant offer. The belief that the gospel is a sincere OFFER of salvation to ALL of humanity, when Christ did not die for ALL of humanity, is the very defintion of insincerity. The gospel is not an offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of salvation for the elect family of God.
theearstohear 4 hours ago
@theearstohear Amen.
CBALLEN 2 hours ago
The nature and extent of the Atonement is summed up in 1John 2:2 ! All the Elasticized Calvinistic (or is that Calvinastic? Calvinism combined with gymnastics) Hermeneutics collapse in the face of its declaration of the universal offer of atonement.
zanmirrob 2 days ago
When a man says "impossible" then he must not believe the Bible...think.....sad for such an intelligent man to let his pride read into the Bible.
TheHulkysmash55 1 week ago
Calvinism, Arminianism... all named after people... be a Biblist.
searchlight31 1 week ago
This pastor (macarthur) is spiritually blind for teaching reform theology..
tgillspy2 1 week ago
@CBALLEN You don't understand Romans 9--- you rip verses 6-22 out of their immediate context and I'm willing to bet you've never taken the time to look up all the OT references Paul quotes in the chapters 8-11, have you? Because if you do they will clearly reveal your error if you're willing to understand the argument Paul is making.
droptozro 2 weeks ago
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tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@droptozro Calvinists are laden down with error.They do not know the Lord....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@droptozro God created everything for it's own purpose,even the wicked for the day of evil.
CBALLEN 2 days ago
@CBALLEN
Yep, and in your view... your calvinist god could have created you just to think you're saved, so you can wait until the end and realize you're not really saved nor were you ever so you can glorify him by the fact that he tricked you by his revealed will versus his secret will while you're burning in hell.
The calvinist god deserves no glory, especially because he doesn't get it by love and truth--but by force, eh emmm... I mean "sovereignty" in your definition.
droptozro 2 days ago
@droptozro Did God intentionally create people who had no hope?Yes He did. Are you an Open Theist who thinks God didn't know the sheep from the goats even before He created them?
CBALLEN 2 days ago
@CBALLEN
God created all people with the ability to choose. No I'm not an open theist, but foreknew doesn't always mean "knowing the future"--it CAN mean that, but many times it has to do with knowing from before. I can foreknow someone from my past.
A false teaching in Calvinism is that foreknowledge = forecausation, but that's not true. Just because Isaiah for example knew the future through prophecy, doesn't mean he caused it.
See, you avoid the claim also below--you know it's possible
droptozro 8 hours ago
@droptozro To Know in a Biblical sense means to have sex with for humans or have an intimate relationship for God .God FOREKNEW His people or had an intimate relationship with them before they were ever Created.He chose a finite number of people to save before creation and a finite number not to save and then He created them in their own times.Paul tells believers in Eph 1 that God had chosen to save them all in Christ before the foundation of the world as He did all believers.Read all of Eph 1
CBALLEN 7 hours ago
@droptozro "Just because Isaiah for example knew the future through prophecy, doesn't mean he caused it."
Isaiah is not God,Isaiah got all his prophecy from God who not only knows the future,but has planned it all as well.Isaiah 14:24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
CBALLEN 7 hours ago
@droptozro Arminianism is man ruling over God,saying"I will do all I please and if I want to be saved God must wait on me,He cannot do anything without MY permission"It's a man centered gospel that is no gospel at all.
CBALLEN 7 hours ago
@CBALLEN
Talk about a straw-man, and I'm not Arminian. Your arguments are based on false premises and teachings, no one's ever said God cannot do things without our permission.
You're not even consistent with your own views, for IF the Calvinist god were true--it's not even POSSIBLE to have a man-centered gospel apart from the Calvinist gods decrees that it occur---meaning your god wants this teaching, even though it's wrong.
Have you ever studied the gnostics?
droptozro 6 hours ago
@droptozro Say what?Like all Arminians you believe that you had to muster up a faith in Christ while you were still an unGodly sinner then you traded this man made faith to God for His salvation,in other words,saved by FAITH through Grace.God furnishes both the GRACE and the Faith,it is God alone who justifies a man and finally glorifies him.
CBALLEN 6 hours ago
@CBALLEN
"...then you traded man man faith to God for His salvation"
No one's ever said this, -you really need to back down and ask questions before you make false premises. You're giving commitments to my side that aren't even true---this is the epitome of straw-manning. If you cannot even be reasonable and defend your side properly and answer the question, there's no point to quarreling with you. Debate is fine, but you're not answering objections, it's like talking to a wall.
droptozro 6 hours ago
@droptozro I'm sorry,I thought you were an open theist,but I presume you are really just a Molinist,there's really no difference,man decides the out come in both ,right? Are you aware that the Roman Catholics who invented Molinism have even abandoned it?You claim that God didn't know His sheep before Creation,nor the goats,so how do you square this with an all knowing God?
CBALLEN 5 hours ago
@CBALLEN
I've not even studied Molinism... heard it slightly in the past but never taken the time. I just stand on Scripture, and the fact that God knows the future doesn't mean He caused every little thing by decree. That's a non-sequitur. If God revealed a judgement to me by vision, and said He will bring it to pass--then YES, in that instance God will have caused that judgment. But to take that and say He must control everything or He's not sovereign is not logical.
droptozro 5 hours ago
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@droptozro In essence you are preaching that Jesus died only as the vehicle that anyone can use as a means to save themselves.Jesus is like a car or a bus that MAN uses as a way to get from point A earth to B Heaven,but it's entirely up to man,he is the master of his destiny alone.You teach against the truth of scripture and for God's dependence on man,to enact salvation.Man must give God permission to save him and without man's permission God is powerless to save anyone.It's man centered.
CBALLEN 6 hours ago
Macarthur makes a statement using the question; 'Who runs your spiritual life?' Answer: You make the decisions, Christ releases His power. You choose Christ guides. You decide, Christ gives Grace. You believe, Jesus Christ Saves. Plain human logic tells you that God can only hold men accountable, if they reject the offer of salvation, provided that each and every human being on earth was equally able of accepting it. I marvel at the continued brain wrestling of Calvinism.
MilanPavkovic1 1 month ago
@MilanPavkovic1 Jesus told a woman one time to "go and sin no more" Do you believe that she was capable of sinning no more? Why would Christ tell her to do something that she was incapable of doing? Men are not condemened based on having the ability to believe but not, rather that believing is the standard of God whether man is able to believe or not is irrelevant.
Proverbs1533 2 weeks ago
@MilanPavkovic1 said: "Plain human logic tells you that God can only hold men accountable, if they reject the offer of salvation"
This is the fundamental error in your theology. You rely on human logic instead of biblical revelation. Responsibility does not presuppose free will and there is no evidence in the Scripture (the authority over human logic) that Christ's saving atonement is effective only if man wills it to be effective.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
Calvinism exists because of pride. It really does. Spiritual pride.
MilanPavkovic1 1 month ago
@MilanPavkovic1 There is nothing more humbling than knowing that I have been saved through the grace of God and not of my own will.
issacky 1 month ago
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tgillspy2 3 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 So arrogant that he doesn't even attribute his own will to his salvation.
Proverbs1533 2 weeks ago
@Proverbs1533 He is arrogant.The gospel is the opposite of calvinism.....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 And tell me what the difference between the Gospel and Calvinism that makes John Macarthur so "arrogant"
Proverbs1533 2 weeks ago
@Proverbs1533 Because he is known to carry reform theology He should quoted the scriptures all the scriptures that deal with salvation.Jesus speaks the truth because he is the truth .For heaven sake the bible teaches the opposite of calvinism.....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 If you have listened to John MacArthur at any extent you would realize that he constantly referencing Scripture in his sermons and teaching. It's interesting that you would criticize John for not referencing Scripture all the while asserting your own theology without Scripture.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note He twists the scriptures.....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2
example?
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note He doesn't believe john 3 :16 KJV He believes in reform theology....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 John MacArthur believes what John: 3:16 teaches. It's just not your Arminian theology version. I understand though, I was once a John 3:16 Arminian whose entire theological understanding came from that one verse. We will probably never agree on this.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note As far as freedom goes,what I mean is,man does exactly what He wants to do in his heart,now I know that things determine what I or others do,but it's not God causing our sin,it begins in our heart,yet I do believe that God will decide the sin we do,for instance,if I had in mind to cheat on my wife and there were two girls that I could choose from,I believe God would cause me to cheat with one over the other,for His purposes,but sin is what I wanted to do.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN God doesn't decide what sin we do....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
Calvinism is a pharisee religion....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Bud,you're not believing or trusting in Christ,you're believing in self salvation and you twist or misinterpret the Bible to say that God would like to save everyone,but men just won't allow Him to,in other words, God needs man's permission to save him.God saves any and all He chooses to save.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
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tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Isaiah 63
17Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Hum,now who is causing these people to stray from God's way,who is hardening their hearts from fearing God?
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 This is how God set up the Exodus so He would free His people and destroy Pharaoh Psalms 105:24-25 And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes.whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Ex 1:22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every son that is born to the Hebrews you shall cast into the Nile, but you shall let every daughter live.”As God said in Psalms this was HIS PLAN and at this time Moses was saved from the Nile by Pharaoh's daughter.So God decides the sins men will do and not do,as you see Moses was saved as God had also planned,since God would raise him up as a prophet for the people and would give His law through him
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 God's foreknowledge of the future is not something that He foresees or looks through time to LEARN,God's foreknowledge of the future is the knowledge of How He will have the future HAPPEN.His foreknowledge of people is the same thing,it's people that He has foreloved before creation and it is these who He set His love upon and it is these who Jesus came to die for and save.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN Just read John chapter 3 kjv. Reformed doctrine is worthless nonsense....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 You should believe what the Bible says,it's true you know?You are a Roman Catholic who believes you can earn salvation,when the Bible says you can't,it tells us that God has chosen His own and the will of man plays no part in his salvation,yet you believe that the will of man is exactly what determines ones salvation.You also don't believe that the natural man is dead in his trespasses and sin,unable to please God,you believe it is the will of a spiritually dead man that saves him.sad
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
John macarthur ought to read 2 Peter 2 KJV....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Are you for real?Are you a little kid that can only speak or type in half sentences?
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN Be a man and put away your foolishness and false doctrine....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
Reformed calvinism is foolishness and wickedness.....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Arminianism is another gospel,which is no gospel at all.Jesus is not a failure trying but failing to save all men,He will save all who He came to save,His People.There will not be one person in Hell that Jesus died for,I know you think there will be,sad.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN God so loved " some of the elect few in the world" that he gave his only begotten Son .....NO ! Now read John 3:16 KJV again.You are serious heretic cballen. I don't bow to strange God that you claim.God is not a liar....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only unique Son so that the believing ones would not perish but have ever lasting life.He died for the BELIEVING ONES,this is what it says in the Greek,this is what was actually written..It's true,Jesus only died for the believing ones,not the unbelievers,they all end up in Hell.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 Seriously,do you really believe that people will be in Hell that Jesus died for?Is God a failure who loves those in Hell as much as those He will save? Here's the truth according to God.
Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN You are speaking perverse things.....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
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@tgillspy2 Election is a false doctrine, that can only be found in the Bible and nowhere else! We must thank god for our free wills, in which we can choose to live or stay dead daily. I was saved 7 times last month, but by the time the 4th of July rolled around I had fallen from grace. Thank you jesus for dying for everyone's sins in the whole world, even the reprobate in hell!
milkman589
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN Of course they will because they refused through unbelief to accept his offer of atonement! By faith we stand in this grace Rom 5:2!
zanmirrob 2 days ago
@zanmirrob Look, God created two finite groups,both are unchangeable,He created goats for Hell and sheep to save,He knew both these groups before creation.So God created all the goats with perfect knowledge of their end.so He did create people with no hope of Heaven.
CBALLEN 2 days ago
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@tgillspy2 "Just read John chapter 3 kjv. Reformed doctrine is worthless nonsense..."
I've read it,and what did Jesus tell Nicodemus?.You must be born again or born from above to see the kingdom of God.Now,tell me,did you have anything to do with being born naturally?No.So how does a man make himself born again?He can't,only the Holy Spirit can cause ones new birth,that's why Jesus used these words,because it leaves men helpless,belief can only follow the new birth,think man!
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
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@tgillspy2 A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@tgillspy2 "God doesn't decide what sin we do...."
Of course He does,He decides what sins are done and which sins are not done,this is how He makes sure all His will is done.He caused the Egyptians to hate His people so it would lead to Him bringing Pharaoh down before the world and He stopped Paul from going to Damascus and hunting Christians down by changing him into one! Why do you think persecution of the church always makes it grow?Because it's God's plan,that's why.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.This is where I get my belief on me wanting to sin,but God deciding which sin.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note I do see what you mean though, when God has nothing but sinners to work with, He can direct our steps in those sins without sinning Himself.Even in the Lord's prayer Jesus says to pray lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one.God never tempts us,but secondary sources do all the time.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note No he doesn't.Those who teach reform theology are spiritually blind....
tgillspy2 2 weeks ago
@MilanPavkovic1 Calvinists are so proud that they came up with a doctrine that says that beyond grace they are completely unable to do anything good and are completely unrighteous apart from Christ. Wow...how proud
Proverbs1533 2 weeks ago
Typical Calvinist arrogance
msb0000 1 month ago
@msb0000 You are right.....
tgillspy2 1 month ago
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tgillspy2 1 month ago
@msb0000 No you need not be a calvinist to be saved :) but you will be wrong in many biblical teachings so could be a harm to somebody else s salvation
TheMenFisher 2 months ago
@Gimplett - so if I'm not a Calvinist, I'm not saved?
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 No just ignorant of the scriptures.
ChurchCrossRidge 1 month ago
@msb0000 Calvinism is a cult.....
tgillspy2 1 month ago
@tgillspy2 Your mother dresses you funny and your feet don't match.
CBALLEN 1 month ago
@CBALLEN Calvinism is wicked....
tgillspy2 1 month ago
@tgillspy2 All that God decrees in the past, man will freely do in the future..How's that?
CBALLEN 1 month ago
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tgillspy2 1 month ago
@CBALLEN
I totally agree with you, but I have a hard time calling it "freedom."
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note When God saves one sin has no more hold on them,all ones sin is forgiven ,past,present and future.If we sin we have an advocate,Jesus Christ.Of course this is not a licence to sin,God's proof that He has saved one is that the fruits of the spirit will be made manifest in the persons life and they won't want to live the way they used to.Is that kinda what you meant? I'm not sure exactly what you meant by freedom.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
@CBALLEN
You said: "God had decreed all things in the past and man will "freely" do his decrees in the future." I completely agree with this I just don't see the point in calling it freedom. If you believe that God is all-powerful then one would have to be a dualist to suggest that there is another power other than God which causes things to happen. Dualism is blasphemy.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@Death4Note I don't believe in dualism.Keep in mind,nothing exists unless God made it,He even made Lucifer,but He made him mutable.The Bible also tells us that God planned the future and calls it to be,so He's not looking down through time to learn something.Whatever God's reason was for doing all He does is known to Him alone,and I just have to trust that and believe all He says even though I don't understand why He does all He does or the way He does it.We can't lean on our own understanding.
CBALLEN 2 weeks ago
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tgillspy2 1 month ago
@msb0000 reread TheMenFisher comment for an answer to your question.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
The tension in MacArthur's theology is not between limited atonement and universal gospel proclamation, as he asserts. It is between limited atonement and the well-meant offer. The belief that the gospel is a sincere OFFER of salvation to all of humanity, when Christ did not die for all of humanity, is the very defintion of insincerity. The gospel is not an offer of salvation to all of humanity, it is the proclamation of salvation for the elect family of God.
theearstohear 2 months ago
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John MacArthur rocks by the way
v01741r31 2 months ago
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Both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong in the fact that they think they can impose human reason unto scripture. He is beyond understanding, and we can't systematize scripture into one giant intellectualized monolith. Both systems are right, yet they are wrong. Calvinism seeks to demonstrate the glory and sovereignty of God at the expense of human responsibility and choices, and Arminianism tries the opposite. It is a useless debate, accept the seemingly contradictory scriptures and move on.
v01741r31 2 months ago
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NAME BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE IF WE DO NOT OVERCOME (this is by the Power of God of Course but we must be a part of it because WE ARE) John 3:16 WHOSOEVER WILL Then Means NOTHING in ETERNAL SECURITY & ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED! Eternal Security Stinks from the Pits of Hell!
FormerMPSGT 2 months ago
you know why you have those kind of question cause you want to believe alie read revelations 22;17 who so ever WIIL means salvation is for those who believe and want to be saved
boricua796 3 months ago
@boricua796 You can't take one verse in Revelation and ignore the rest of Scripture. John 6 says only those whom God draws can come to Christ. Romans 9 says God will mercy whom He mercies and harden whom He hardens. There is no mention of the free will of man in salvation anywhere in Scripture. We are saved by grace through faith and all of it is a gift of God. He gives us the ability to believe (faith) by which we are saved. Romans 3 tells us no one seeks God. God does it all.
metanoeo1 2 months ago
He said men go to hell for unbelief-I thought Calvinists believe that some were predestined to Heaven and some were predestined to hell? MacArthur clearly dodges the question because it exposes the incongruity of the Scriptures and Calvinism.
msb0000 4 months ago
@msb0000 There is absolutely no incongruity of the Scriptures and Calvinism. The incongruity exists when you use force your preconceived ideas into Scripture rather than allowing Scripture to interpret itself.
metanoeo1 2 months ago
@metanoeo1 ...and how about when the Scripture says God is no willing that ANY should perish? Is the Bible correct or Calvinism?
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 Both are correct because they are in agreement with one another. One has to have enough understanding of the original language to comprehend the difference between God's desire and God's decreed will. Peter used terminology that refers to God's desire. If you believe that God truly decrees that all men be saved, but is unable to make that happen, you serve a weak god, not the God of Scripture.
metanoeo1 2 months ago
@metanoeo1 - Using that logic then, your god must be unloving to send His Son to die for SOME. Oh and by the way, The I'm-smarter-than-you tactic employed by Calvinists doesn't work with me. Jesus said the way of salvation is simple enough for a little child to understand. Go ask a 4-year-old what John 3:16 means.
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 Here we go with the emotional rhetoric that is not based in Scripture anywhere. I can guess you're going the "whosoever believeth" route with John 3:16. That word "whosover" doesn't exist in the Greek manuscripts in that verse. It literally says, "all the believing ones" or "all who believe" it's not an open door that anyone ever born has the possiblity to be saved. God is sovereign and our salvation rests completely in Him, not our choice, free wil or any other unbiblical idea
metanoeo1 2 months ago 2
@metanoeo1 - There is an ingredient of free will that your statement fails to address. As John points out why the commandments? Without choice God's promise of salvation becomes moot.
SoCalHomebuyer 2 months ago
@SoCalHomebuyer
We choose Christ, not by our strength, but by His - because He chose us when as yet nothing had been created, & will still be holding us when the universe is no more. If we wish to have free will, it must be in accord with His Will - so those who have not yet come to Him, have a lamed free will. How can we choose Him, if we do not have the grace to choose Him, that we need if we are to choose Him ?
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 month ago
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@msb0000 said: "and how about when the Scripture says God is no willing that ANY should perish?"
With this Scripture, Calvinism is still correct. Your problem with this Scripture is your understanding of the word "any." Because of your theology you assume that "any" means every single person ever. But this is not the intent of the verse. It is speaking directly of the elect. You likely disagree but if your faith is in Christ you are saved.
Death4Note 2 weeks ago
@msb0000 clearly MacArthru didn't dodge the question. What really exists is that men deny what scriptures teach and hate God's Sovereign election. The author of this confusion is none other than Satan himself.
leebret1 2 months ago
@leebret1 - so if I'm not a Calvinist, I'm not saved?
msb0000 2 months ago
Great explanation! I always enjoy hearing John MacArthur teach.
sjennings86 4 months ago
Well...what this amounts to is a frank admission of ignorance on the Doctrine of Atonement. At least the man is honest about it.
However, there is no reason to remain ignorant. The Bible speaks plainly on the subject. Even a little child can understand it.
Here's a question: Why do men so often think NUMERICALLY about sin, and the atonement thereof. Sin against an Absolute God cannot be measured in finite terms. Clue: Infinity , is NOT a number. ( ask any competent math professor).
sjk2cor517 4 months ago
The ruthless competition for survival in this world is made necessary by our need for training. Our sin - our disobedience and disloyalty - results in blood shed. God demonstrated that to Adam and Eve when He made clothes for them. We will never benefit from the lessons of mortality, as long as we blame our hardships on God. He gives us the choices, but we make them. We have just enough free will for Him to reveal us to ourselves.
wait4itandwait4it 5 months ago
Jesus laid down His life to change our hearts/attitudes. God's election seems to be based on His assessment of our attitudes, IMHO.
Atonement is not a math equation. It's not as if each drop of Jesus' blood is shed for a specific sin.
wait4itandwait4it 5 months ago
You have he is mighty to save you,but you say that their is only a select few so now he is mighty to save only a select few?
Wow ok no disrespect I will not be posting here,because we will go for days back and forth.
Leave John Calvin and truly be saved.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 So why is it all about Calvin? Especially seeing throughout the Bible God speaks about election, and the Book of Life was written before the fore knowledge of God, that means he wrote who would be saved before time began, he'd already chosen who He would save, and who would really choose God? Romans 3:11 "No one understands, and no one seeks God", so without God choosing whom to save we would all be condemned and deserving of a just and righteous punishment in our sin, ill pray for u
kewlazpewp 4 months ago
@kewlazpewp
Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
xxjaycxx1 4 months ago
@kewlazpewp
Notice it says all peoples not chosen.
This is what happens to men who follow men they become one with that man instead of GOD.
xxjaycxx1 4 months ago
and your mis using Roman 3:11
Please study before opening your mouth, this is talking about those who are trying to live under the law and not grace.
in other words everyone is corrupt and only by grace can they all be saved, do not just quote a verse read the whole entire word then you will see what it means and if you do not then pray GOD opens your eyes.
You are playing with GODs words and teaching what calvin taught not GOD.
xxjaycxx1 4 months ago
So GOD's grace is to all men yes he has chose to save all men,but he knows that not all will accept it.
Once again reading a verse is never the full story I can see why you do not know nor understand because you just reading verses.
Brother I have nothing against anyone who chooses to follow John Calvin to each his own.
Once again we are not robots,GOD does not want robots he wants for everyone to choose.
This world has always been about choices its called free will.
GODBLESS you brother.
xxjaycxx1 4 months ago
Once again then devil finds a human being to twist his holy word.
John Calvin is that man,no different then, Joseph smith,and Russle from the JW's.
When will people allow the holy spirit to write the words of GOD in their souls hearts and minds?
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
Jesus' death/sacrifice was the propitiation for ALL sin, but it atoned only the sins for whom accept the "gift" of salvation, ie God's elect.
dagl086 5 months ago
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john 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Does this passage say that he gave his only begotten son just for the elects?
NOOOOOOOO.
The whole world ! so who is the whole world, anyone who is in the world, World = not only this world itself entirely, but sin.
Who ever is in his sin has a chance of salvation.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
Jesus atonement is for all men, the invitation goes to all, so Jesus death an Resurrection is perfect, he did the perfect job of saving us.
But man in his own free will can either accept or reject salvation.
So GOD gave the invite, so he is perfect in his Grace it is man in his imperfection which will either want to receive or deny that invite.
john 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 Jesus didn't tells us to go to all the world and invite people to Jesus. Jesus sends his disciples into all the world to preach the gospel, that message which commands all to repent and believe in him whom the Father sent. This is not an option, it is not an invitation; it is a command. Jesus also revealed that only those whom the Father gives him will come to him.
the gospel is not an invitation, it is a command. it is the command of the King of Kings.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
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@HermitintheRain
Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’
Yes he said to invite all since he made all,he talks to all,now GOD knows many will reject,but his invite is to all who are in sin.
once again your un learned.
please do not twist the scriptures,if you do not know just says so and we will teach you.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 Mt 22:9 καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς γάμους (bid them to the marriage)
καλέσατε (bid is derived from κελεύω which means to urge by command).
your arrogance has caused you to bark up the wrong tree.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
and yet no real answer you must be a calvanist lol, I bark up the right tree every time GOD give me the chance to shine his light on those who learn from men,and do not alloe the holy spirit to lead them,you insult me when I have not even insulted you,I said you are un learned and rightfully so you have no clue what GOD jesus or the Holy spirit, GOD himself is saying, and you post hebrew and greek like no one else can't do that, your clueless.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 i used the Greek to prove your error in that passage: to point out the fact which you tried to discredit that the gospel is not an invitation but a command. the perverse translation of the NIV only demonstrates once again why it is indeed an abominable translation that likes to change, add and subtract words in its work. whereas the Greek in that passage clearly demonstrates that it is not 'to invite' but to 'bid' as the KJV translates in the sense of urgently commanding.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
you use the greek to show me that you are unlearned, you choose things you have no knowledge of and for all the wrong purposes stop following one mans train of thought.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 what a hypocrite: you have on numerous occassions pointed out the notion of 'freewill' which is a human tradition which has been taught for centuries; codified in Greek philosophy at the temple of Delphi, and propagated through the ages, and given greater focus since the early 20th century by the father of modern paganism: Aleister Crowley in his philosophy/religion/mysticism known as Thelema-a teaching which now reeks throughout western culture.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
So your saying man has no free will, I m laughing at you lol
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 in fact if Aleister Crowley were alive he would love how his furthering of his ideals have reached so deeply into mainstream Christianity; for he would see in it the sure death knell of Christianity-or so he would hope. for it was one of his chief aims, as was elaborated on by Madame Blavatsky of the Theosophical Society to seek a way to dismantle the power and authority of God, the Bible and Jesus Christ. To which Crowley found the promotion of free-will to be the chief means to it.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 the Lord God allowed me to spend many of my adult years in the heart of these traditions; only to be found by him in the way, to be shown that what i learned, studied and practiced in my humanistic days has practically overtaken all of Christendom. it is as the vision of Ezekiel when he was made to dig a hole through the temple to see all the wicked idolatrous practices going on in the house of the Lord. but now i have been made to see the same thing in practically every church.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
You spend many years following one mans opinion.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you can call me unlearned, and speak all other manner of evil against me. but i cannot but testify of that which God has taught me, what his Spirit has shown me of the evil that is present in this day and age. to them that will hear it: Praise God! to them that won't, Praise God! i can only bear witness to how the Lord saved me. how on the day that he did, i wasn't confronted with an option, but was convinced and made to believe in the grace that was poured out upon me.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Speaking truth is not evil , following one mans perception of what he thinks is.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 did God force his love upon me? Praise God he did. God chastened me sore like you wouldn't believe, until i was yielded and found wallowing in the misery of my life. God by his chastening mercy brought me to his cross; and it was there at that cross, where i lay dead in my own blood and vileness, that Christ said, Live, and it was there I began to live.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
He did not force his love on you scriptures say,he did not do so, says he offers it you in your own free will must be willing to receive it.
Why would GOD go through what he went through for a select few? to think that GOD controls man like robots is ridiculous,you are reading to into the scriptures.
he Salvation has come to all who wants it. Although GOD knows many will not accept it,he has exercise his perfect mercy for all.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
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@xxjaycxx1 did God force his love upon me? Praise God he did. God chastened me sore like you wouldn't believe, until i was yielded and found wallowing in the misery of my life. God by his chastening mercy brought me to his cross; and it was there at that cross, where i lay dead in my own blood and vileness, that Christ said, Live, and it was there I began to live.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 and if one takes a careful look at David's life, one will see that God left David in his sin for months before he visited him. For it wasn't but before Solomon/Jedidiah would be born that God sent Nathan to confront David. during which time God was dealing with David by leaving him alone to "When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer." Ps 32:3-4
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
your funny how you skip around the scriptures awesome.
I rather listen to what GOD say be one mind with GOD then to be one mind with John Calvin.
Calvinism is a deception.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 in those months before David was confronted by Nathan, God was working repentance in David for that hour when he would visit him, in what Ezekiel called 'the time of love" (Ezek 16:8) where Hosea reveals the Lord would then speak comfortably to them that he has set his affection on, as demonstrated through his chastening love.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
IN your mind GOD is controlling everyone like robots, weird, if GOD woks repentance in man then has that man truly repented I think not if GOD is playing puppet master,un learned.
Your new name is un learned until you truly learn,may GOD have mercy,and teach you the truth and pull you from being one minded with john calvin.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you have demonstrated once again no evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. before the world to see, there is only the evidence of arrogant condescension and vile slandering of one's neighbor. you are hereby blocked and thus ends any further conversation in obedience to the exhortation of Paul:
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Tit 3:9-10
God forgive your arrogance.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
lol brother may GOD smile upon you and open your eyes before you deceive many.
xxjaycxx1 4 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 the 'whosoever' of John 3:16 will only be those whom the Father has given to the Son. the 'whosoever' are all those who are the Shepherd's sheep-all of which will hear his voice and come to him. the 'whosoever' are those that believe. them that believe are those whom the Holy Spirit has given eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand the word by which faith is planted into their newly regenerated heart.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
This verse right does not mean to a chosen few it means that salvation has been extended to all,no just one or two, or a chosen few but to all who recieves.
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
GOD would not be exercising his infinite mercy if it was only to a select few.
Becarful how you interepret scripture.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 If God chose to save only one person and let the rest go straight to hell his mercy would remain abundant and abounding forever. The measure of God's mercy is not dependant on whether or not he offers salvation to the whole world or to those he chooses. That God chooses to be merciful period is.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
If GOD show mercy towards 1 person and not to the world no his mercy would not be perfect,in order for it to be perfect it has to shown to all,once again you calvanist are so blinded by mr. calvin himself,stop listening to what a man says and learn the truth about what GOD is saying.
You sound ignorent and most calvanist do, you do not know how to interpret scriptures,you are clearly confusing free will,and what GOD has offered to all created by him.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you have declared your own ignorance. you stand in judgment against God that his mercy must be displayed according your own judgment of what makes him merciful. for the record: John Calvin said nothing new that hadn't already been declared by such disciples of Christ as Polycarp and most of the early church fathers. John Calvin who had been educated in all the ways of humanism was made, by the grace of Godl, to see the folly of it, and how it had infested the church.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 it is you who have come to bow at the humanistic altar of free will, and have made all that you read in Scripture to bow to that altar. before the Holy Spirit stopped me in my ways; i spent my life literally as a priest in a pagan culture that exalted the will of man as supreme above all considerations. it is in fact this teaching which does damn souls faster than anything else. it is in fact the temptation of Eve when she was told she would be like God
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you are here warned to flee from your own will, to crucify it with all that is you at the cross of Jesus Christ; that the only will that should stand above all is the will of the Father, to which even the Son himself was and is subjected to.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 men do cry foul if God should force his love upon those who are otherwise hell-bound. yet these same men will find a man crazy who doesn't force himself upon his child to deliver him from whatever danger is set before them. men want the free will to choose if they will be saved. yet man who had no say when he was born, when he will die, somehow comes to think that he has a say in his eternal destiny. when God forces sinners into hell-he will be forcing them against their will into it.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 Ezekiel 16 shows the extent of all those who are the Jerusalem of God; what there state was before the Lord passed by them.
you also know nothing of who i am; you know nothing of how the Lord stopped me in my rebellious ways. you know nothing how if it were not for the mercy of God upon my soul, i would still be on the road of rebellion which i charged at with my whole heart.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you were apparently less of a sinner than the rest of us. who only needed a little nudge. Jesus' death for you must have been over-kill, since you still had enough good in you to make the right 'free will' choice; unlike your neighbor or friend who were just to wicked to freely choose Christ to be their Savior. apparently you have never really known what it was to be truly dead in trespasses. you had enough life in you that you just needed some help, and you could do the rest.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 When God showed mercy on David in putting away his sin of murder, while showing no mercy to king Saul for failing to destroy all that he was commanded to destroy; or when he showed mercy to the idolatrous practices of Solomon and Ephraim, but spared not Jeroboam or Ahab; it was because God chose to be merciful to whom he will be merciful.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
you are not too bright,King david a man after GOD's heart why cause David repented of his sins, where saul never repented and was rebellious to GOD, so Saul once again chose his road by his own free will.
So what you have is a king that repents and a king that rebels please learn and i barking up the right tree,trust me it is you who have found someo one who knows and understands deeply the things of
GOD through his son and holy spirit.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 you contradict the whole revelation of Scripture and even the testimony of David himself. David wasn't shown favor because of his goodness; for even David confesses that he was born in iniquity; that it is David who first declared that there is none righteous, there is none that seek after God-this included himself. it was but by the mercy of the Lord to David, according to the sovereignty of his will to be favorable to him.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 Solomon was more wicked than Saul had ever been; but according to the promise God made to David, he would not utterly reject Solomon; but would chasten him as a son and would therefore keep him forever under the covenant of grace he had towards David.
one thing is clear; though we claim the same God by name in his Son Jesus Christ; they are clearly not the same gospel. your gospel trusts in the power of man's will to choose; mine in the power of God's will to save who he chooses.
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
The difference is repentance my little naive friend,Saul did not repent. please learn
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@ hermitin the rain
Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’
Yes he said to invite all since he made all,he talks to all,now GOD knows many will reject,but his invite is to all who are in sin.
once again your un learned.
please do not twist the scriptures,if you do not know just says so and we will teach you.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Let me know where you are confused and the very scripture that is confusing you I will clarify what it means for you since you are having trouble understanding what GOD is saying.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
The gospel, mean good news, good news of what? salvation, salvation from what? GOD's wrath,who is eligible for salvation? anyone who will recieve it,per the scriptures.
Find me where GOD or Jesus has ever said that only a select few,and I will tell what is being said, I know the scripture that is confusing you. But im a let you post it so I can break it down for you.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Jn 12:40
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 1 Cor 4:3-4
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
Yes he blinded them because they chose what they wanted, so GOD gave them up to the very things they had desire,since they did not want to receive the truth just like you,he blinds them,once again learn what man receives by his own choices.
You my friend are blind and cannlt see,yet you think your holy,but truly blind and do not even know it.
But that your choice,your own free will has you following calvanist beliefs,not Jesus calvinist belief.
your twisting scripture.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Pet 2:6-8
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@xxjaycxx1 your arrogance is indeed noted for all the world to see. it is sad that God didn't have you in the inner circle of the original 12 apostles, or even of the early church fathers. to imagine that God has left his church void of your wisdom in understanding the Scriptures. is truly amazing that the church has survived as many centuries as it has without your magnificent insight and instruction.
am curious what part of the fruit of the Spirit gives you such proud arrogance?
HermitintheRain 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain
only the devil insults so i see your fruit,which is of the devil, i said your un learned, no insult just being truthful.
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago
@HermitintheRain Let break this verse down so you can see that their is a 2 part to this verse which covers all!!!
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, (notice he says (all) that GOD gives) which means everyone.
and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Then notice( the free will of man), and (whoever) comes to me I will never cast away. (whoever) mean's (anyone), so (2 key words here ALL and who ever.
Stop twisting scripture..
xxjaycxx1 5 months ago