Is "all things" the church in Colossians 1:16? (response to ProveYourFaith)

[ProveYourFaith]

Jesus received preeminence by being the first born!!! LOL The more you talk the more lost you seem!

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith In the LXX version of Proverbs 8:22, Wisdom is speaking. Wisdom says that The Lord ἔκτισέν her. Are you contending that the Jews who translated the LXX into greek held that God had to create wisdom and at one time existed without it? Or could it be that ἔκτισέν and κτίσεως speak of what God PRODUCES...either by Creating it from nothing OR by Generating it?

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Yes that would be the thing in the gut which one who has it must speak or it persecutes him. Nothing you know about.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith Charming ad hominem...and how do you know that about me anyway? Putting this aside, Wisdom is not something that was made from nothing, yet part of Ktisis nonetheless...and so Jesus can STILL be part of Ktisis, by virtue of him being generated by God, yet not be an actual handiwork. Your argument stands refuted.

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Ktisis a created thing like Jesus.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith Nothing says "My argument's been dismantled" quite like repeating a point that's already been refuted, while offering no rebuttal to the refutation.

You do realize that in the pre-nicene world, people freely applied the verb Ektisen to Jesus and included him in Ktisis...people who flatly DENIED that there was a time that he didn't exist, like Origen, Dionysis of Rome, and Clement of Alexandria? Doesn't that tell you SOMETHING about the original context of the word Ktisis?

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 First of all I doubt your claims of the three as it must always be stated. Second you yourself allow Jesus to be called created yet deny he is created. It is the ignorance of that I point out. You claim he is the begotten son yet deny he is begotten at the same time. You are a living contradiction and this is why the Trinity is dieing fewer and fewer accepting the lies.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith >>>Second you yourself allow Jesus to be called created yet deny he is created.

I'm demostrating that in the ANCIENT WORLD, "ektisen" DID NOT HAVE A SINGULAR MEANING.  It didn't **just** mean "create from nothing."

"The Lord created me the beginning of His ways." For, as ye know, there is more than one signification of the word "created... But this "created" is not to be understood in the same manner as "made." For to make and to create are different from one another.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith That's from Dionysius of Rome, Against the Sabellians Chapter 2. Dionysius says previously in this chapter:

It is therefore not a trifling, but a very great impiety, to say that the Lord was in any wise made with hands. For if the Son was made, there was a time when He was not;

There. He says that "ektisen" doesn't have a single meaning, and it doesn't necessarily mean "made."

You can either learn from this, or stay ignorant in your Ebionite heresy. Your choice.

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Dionysius is not scripture guy. Seems those of your delusion can not tell the difference.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith >>>Dionysius is not scripture guy

At this point, what are you even talking about??? I'm pointing out that Dionysius was pointing out to Dionysius of Alexandria that it was common knowledge that "ektisen" didn't just mean ONE THING. Does he not say, For, AS YE KNOW, there is more than one signification of the word "created'"

Really...give it up. I'm deluded?  Please. Your heresy originated with the EBIONITES, for pete's sake. No gentile believed it before the Socinians.

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Clueless!

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith Clueless!  Nah, you're just unteachable.

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Will you remember me when you are a Unitarian?. God will! Ethan is mine!

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith You're just kinda poppin' off at this point! God will remember you when I'm a Unitarian??? What does that even mean?

You realize to become a Uni, I have to accept a theology that NO ONE in the post-apostolic age believed except a bunch of Jewish screwballs who denied Paul was an apostle, denied Christ's virginal birth, and kept the Mosaic Law. Yep, those Ebionites were definitely the upholders of apostolic truth!

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 "I have to accept a theology that NO ONE in the post-apostolic age believed except a bunch of Jewish screwballs who denied Paul was an apostle," Your not very bright are you? So no one at Nicea represented Alogoi, Adoptism. If they didn't exist Subordinationism surly was not present being the compromise between the Human Jesus belief opposed the Modalist belief, You are way off.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith Are you just making this up? No, no one @ Nicea represented adoptionism...present were the Same Substance, Similar Substance, and Different Substance crowd there. Modalists weren't there either...barely anyone believed that stuff either by 325. ALL affirmed pre-existence...and do you know where the Subordiantionists (Similar Substance) came from? Origen! It was one of the many theological ideas that he shot off like fireworks.

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith And I'll also ask...are you an adoptionist??? You're trying to buddy up to these guys...yeah, they believed Human Jesus Theology...and they were heretics! They denied Christ was God's Son until his baptism...surely you don't believe this?

[msm1876]

@PYF Ok, Dionysius is not enough for you. Here's Tertullian:

"The origins of both his substances display him as man and God: the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ, 5:6-7).

He specifically says his Deity is from an unmade, or unborn substance. Yet he freely applies Pro 8:22 to him:

for what can be better entitled to the name of Wisdom than the Word of God? Listen therefore..."At the first the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways..." Against Praxeas Ch 6

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Tertullian another magic disciple? Like I said I have more information then even Tertullian! What is the difference between Tertullian' opinion of what the bible says and anyone else? This is what you don't get they are nothing more than preachers commenting on the scripture. You don't have your own opinion so you adopted theirs. Your saying those men are above you and you are angered because I will not do the same!

[msm1876]

@ProveYourFaith What I am doing is showing how this word "Ktisis" and it's derivatives were used freely by people who deny Christ was actually created from nothing. It was also used by Jews who used it to describe God bringing forth his wisdom...yet he did not exist without wisdom and had to make it. You may feel free to say Jesus is part of Ktisis and therefore, it must mean he was made...but just know you are not paying the proper respect to the ancient sense of the word.

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 What I am saying is they are in the same delusion you are, created does not mean created if it refers to Jesus! Idiots!

[ProveYourFaith]

@msm1876 Ethan is mine!

[ProveYourFaith]

Ktisis means created creature! Kritzo means created as in was created or recreated! I never used Ktitzo as a verb!

[ProveYourFaith]

You are way off in everything you said Paul said when jesus was begotten of God you call him liar! (Act 13:33 KJV) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

You keep mentioning Trinitarians say this or they say that take credit for your own blasphemy.

[ProveYourFaith]

(Col 1:15 KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This means he is a the first born from the dead of all who are created. Jesus is a of the ktisis! You miss what is right in front of your face!