DO you notice how conservative govts in both the US and Canada constantly push themselves to the brink of overspending....with project investment...tax subsidies...and tax reductions?? I saw it both in BC provincially...and federally.......and then they think they have the right to hack away at the middle class as a result. This gives them permission to hack at trade unions and middle class taxpayers... This is BAD economic management..and we end up paying the bill...
@danL1011 Cool...I would challenge you on who is the spender in the US. What was the cost of Bush's wars..and his tax cuts when he was already deep in deficit? How about cost of tax subsidies? What transformed the Democrat surplus into a huge deficit? There are many factors to look at.....I don't think party lines do justice to any of it....
Not sure how interested you are in Amer. politics. Obama has quadrupled the deficit in 2 years since Bush left office. Both parties are beholden to corp. interests and the military ind. complex. Military spending ratchets upward regardless of party. The main difference is that Democrats also try to buy votes from deadbeat Americans by giving freebies. Hence they tend to be the big spenders. Republicans think tax cuts work like pixie dust.
@danL1011 I agree that they are both to blame..both the dems and the GOP. The deficit can't be blamed completely on Obama, as the GOP set the stage for the collapse of the american economy. I can't imagine what the effect would be in Canada if home prices dropped to 50% of vaiue. Our govt still managed to sink us deep into deficit....now based almost completely on lost revenue due to extensive tax cuts....as stimulus spending has all but wrapped up...
@paulfornasier Obama is completely to blame for HIS deficit. The US is now in 3 wars instead of 2. All the stimulus money was totally wasted, TARP II... Everything Obama touches turns to mud. btw, I'm not a fan of Bush.
As for the housing debacle, Greenspan and then B. Frank are chief culprits. All the crooks from bankers to mortgage lenders to RE agents to deadbeat home debtors were just acting rationally to easy money.
@danL1011 I don't think it was that simple. There was clear fraud...from the rating agencies...to the creators of the mortgage security packages....i.e. Goldman Sachs. Hard to blame Obama completely when the world was in unprecedented crisis. The whole world had this stupid idea of stimulus.... You have to look at the SOURCE of the crisis. The Bush admin had alot of opportunity to deal with the crisis over the years. It was apparent already back in about 2004/05...
@paulfornasier Obama inherited a mess for sure. He's done nothing right since he got into office. btw, the Bush admin warned Congress about the impending mortgage problem. It was Barney Frank who ignored the problem.
@danL1011 OK..but Frank only served as head of the Financial Services Committee from 2007 - 2011. Who else had responsibility for the regulation of banks / wall street behaviour? Why didn't the Bush admin investigate the bank behaviour at all.....rather than throw money at them....with little public transparency? They had strong ties with Goldman...let's not forget that... I don't know the full details about their dealings with Goldman...but it sure looks suspicious....
@paulfornasier I don't want to get into a discussion about the financial crisis. It all started at the end of the Clinton admin with the decision NOT to regulate the derivatives business (shadow banking industry). It went downhill from there. As for Frank, he spearheaded Fannie and Freddie giving home loans to unqualified borrowers. This is a money pit the US taxpayer continues to pay for. See YT videos of him BS'ing while taking testimony from Bush's Sec. of Treasury.
@paulfornasier [Why didn't the Bush admin investigate the bank behaviour at all]
Just one more thing. Hank Paulson orchestrated the largest bank heist in the history of America. I was glad to see him go only to see Obama appoint his protege, Geithner AND reappoint Bernanke. Nothing's changed.
@danL1011 Oh..and the latest war is absolutely minimal compared to the rest.....it's a drop in the bucket for the US, compared to Afghanistan and Iraq.... I don't want to get into the pros and cons of it....it will sidetrack our debate...
@paulfornasier Oh, don't get me wrong about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush was an idiot to turn 9/11 (when Muslims were sympathetic) into an opportunity to wage war in Iraq. The hunt for bin Laden was bogus. And since when did the Taliban become our enemy? Bush has managed to turn the entire Islamic world against the US.
The problem is that Obama promised to get out. It's like Bush is still in office.
@danL1011 I agree with everything you state about Bin Laden and the wars. I don't think Bush cared at all about finding or killing Bin Laden. I agree with you completely. A surgical strike was all that was likely needed if Bin Laden was found to be responsible for 9/11. True...anyone who knew Afghanistan could have predicted the longevity and fulitily of such a war. I travelled to NW Pakistan about 30 years ago..and got to know full well about the tribal resistance to outside interference...
@danL1011 And yes...it's like Bush is still in office. I often watch TYT..and they refer to the dems as Republican lite...and it's very true.... I really think the US needs a third option...and not the Tea Party....LOL
@danL1011 Back in the 60's and 70's, you could easily have a man working to support a decent sized family...and have the ability to buy and pay for a house. That is still the case in some parts of North America...but there are many places where that is not the case. In Canada, that has generally not been the case in large urban centers for many many years... I live, of course, near Vancouver....which has the highest priced real estate around.....aveerage house price value over $800k..
Thanks for reporting on this. The mainstream media always twists these stories to make unions look greedy and unreasonable, when exactly the opposite is true and that is why we have unions in the first place.
@Neurolanis [make unions look greedy and unreasonable]
Well, they usually are.
If you were to hire someone to mow your lawn, would you accept a strike where the worker said he would only mow the "essential" areas around your flower bed while "negotiating" with you?
Most likely you'd "lock" him out and find another person to mow your lawn.
@danL1011 You really, really need to read history. Before unions, we had no weekends off and child labour! Now we also have better pay, health and safety regulations and paid vacations thanks to the unions. Big corporations don't give a DAMN about the people. Only the bottom line. History tells the story.
If I had a company that was making a TON of money and was only paying a small percentage of the profit with my workers I would be ashamed. I am not a heartless bastard.
If you owned a lawn mowing service, would you accept a strike where the workers said they would only mow the "essential" customers' lawn? Most likely you'd find other workers.
[need to read history]
Proximity is not causality. Ford Motor Co. had the highest wages and best working conditions of the auto companies PRIOR to the unions. Competition for good workers drives better working conditions -- not unions. e.g. Silicon Valley.
The good workers would flock to YOUR co. where their hard work will be rewarded. You would fire the lazy workers who would then unionize at other cos. and strike for equal pay & comp. as at your co. But there, the workers give up 5% to pay for union dues.
The customers would flock to YOUR co. b/c the other cos. are LESS competitive due to strikes and a less productive workforce hampered by union rules.
@danL1011 Generally unions benefit everyone, the entire economy. Companies can be reasonable and offer fair wages, etc. But many large corporations (such as Canada Post) will screw over their workers every way they can. They did this before and after unions were formed.
Unions benefit themselves at the expense of other workers. When they can no longer squeeze the employer, the senior union workers stick it to the younger workers w/ 2 tier wages. This usually precedes bankruptcy CAUSED by the union.
Canada Post (which I am not familiar with since I'm American) probably suffers from the same problems as most private businesses granted a gov't monopoly -- they get fat and bloated at ALL levels.
@danL1011 Some unions are corrupt, sure. But generally they work for their workers. It is a democratic process where the workers vote in their leaders to represent them. We have weekends off, NO child labour, and many other basic rights thanks to unions.
Canada Post profits hundreds of millions of dollars in sheer profit every year, and has recently spent over 2 billion dollars to make the company more high-tech. They have upped their CEO's salary and now drastically downed their workers'.
@Neurolanis [has recently spent over 2 billion dollars to make the company more high-tech. ]
Speaking of reading history, you should research the history of automation in heavily unionized industries. Basically, when unions strong arm employers to an unreasonable level (e.g. wages far in excess of the productivity achieved), the co. looks for substitution such as automation and off-shoring. Unions often price themselves out of a job.
Outsized executive compensation is a problem in the US too.
@danL1011 Big corporations can leave anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Better for smaller businesses. Free Trade is just a centralization of wealth anyway, taking jobs to foreign countries for slave wages and allowing foreign businessmen to buy up our companies. I'm sick of seeing the people suffer. In Canada, we have many natural resources and are not grossly over-populated. But our economy is controlled by a foreign bank, who thus control our economy. Corporatism is emerging.
@Neurolanis [We have weekends off, NO child labour, and many other basic rights thanks to unions.]
These are a function of a more prosperous and productive society -- not unions. Proximity is not causality. These trends would have continued with or without unions.
btw, guess who were the major supporters of a higher minimum wage for black workers in South Africa?
ans: racist white labor unions. See if you can figure that one out. Hint: "NO child labor"
@danL1011 You're FULL of it! Are you lying to me or to yourself? Unions fought against these injustices and by amazing coincidence, the changes were made. LOl.
@Neurolanis [Unions fought against these injustices and by amazing coincidence...]
Proximity is not causality. For another example, if you were to research civil rights in the US, you would find that American blacks were making progress at a faster rate PRIOR to the civil rights movement. Just like you, civil rights activists are CONVINCED that all that marching in the 60's led to advancement for blacks. In fact, black advancement reversed course w/ LBJ's War on Poverty.
@danL1011 You keep repeating the same bs over and over again about racist white labour unions. Why is that your constant choice for an example? Is that all that exists for you?? Unions in Canada have created many thresholds for workers, especially in the health and safety field. The right to refuse unsafe work, the right to safe working conditions... Collective action reduced the working day to an 8 hour day.....and also played a large part in ending child labour.
Don't you see the irony? A white racist union championing higher wages for blacks? I'm not sure you understand why. I'll let you think about it for a while. If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you.
@danL1011 Just tell me....I don't like the use of that paradigm.... But my guess is that they would benefit from the raising of wages for low-paid workers.... And that doens't seem like a terrible thing to me.. We need collective forces to raise standards at time...
Remember I told you unions lock other workers out. The white racist unions wanted to raise the min wage for blacks so that blacks would be locked out. How so? A racist white company that might have previously hired black workers at lower wages now has NO incentive to hire a black worker at the same wage as a white worker.
This is the inverse to BC's lower min training wage which is actually a good thing for low skilled workers who otherwise would NEVER in.
@danL1011 I get that the training wage is good for businesses. If govt doesn't step in, then wages are a result of supply and demand. In more difficult times, the worker loses out. I don't get that the training wage is good for new workers. It's good for cheap businesses...and may result in some lower prices...but that is not necessarily good for society in the large picture. I started working in 1976 for $2.65 per hour. Look at how much prices have risen and how little min wage has risen.
@paulfornasier [I don't get that the training wage is good for new workers.]
Minimum wage kills jobs. A job w/ a productive value worth LESS than the min wage simply DISAPPEARS. That is why there are no more movie ushers and kids helping old ladies put groceries in their cars. In the 40's, black US teenagers had a HIGHER employment rate than whites. Today most can't find a job thanks to min wage.
Similarly, a training wage is like lowering the min wage -- good for new workers w/ no skills.
@danL1011 I hear you...but you have to look at wages historically. Why is the bottom level hardly rising at all, when compared to the rise in cost of living? You can turn it around and say that innovation is driven by necessity...which is generally quite true... The market always adapts... Even back in the 60's and 70's, therre was a minimum wage.....and it was a much more livable wage... Again..the more the mid class gets crunched, the more we have to work to maintain a decent life...
@paulfornasier [Why is the bottom level hardly rising at all]
Because there are more unskilled workers than jobs. To combat that, people THINK we need to raise the min wage to a "living wage". But all that does is pay the lucky unskilled workers (probably union) MORE than they are worth in the mkt.
So, over decades, unskilled workers fight for those few jobs (like cushy UAW jobs) instead of acquiring NEW skill for better jobs.
@danL1011 I agree that there are factors that have kept the min wage low. My guess in Canada is that it is tied to an incredible increase in the female labour force over time...many of whom work part-time in service industries (another area with major increase). The other end is major companies like Walmart and others who have resisted organized labour.. Letting the market decide wages...is giving employers virtually all the power. Employees will ALWAYS suffer without some collective action.
@paulfornasier [Letting the market decide wages...is giving employers virtually all the power.]
You forget that employers have to compete for workers. In Silicon Valley, companies do that with high wages, free health club memberships, free food, etc. Low skill workers in the industrialized world will suffer for decades to come b/c there is an oversupply of them.
@danL1011 I agree that there is an oversupply.....but I think you need to keep some decent minimum standards. I'm not advocating for some large hike. We will likely get $10/hour minimum soon in BC, as it seems to be a current standard that is developing across the country... I think it's all a balance. You can't destroy the middle class...because it destroys the economy...and we start becoming more like a developing country.
@paulfornasier [We will likely get $10/hour minimum soon in BC]
There are some YT videos by Milton Friedman and Walter Williams on the destructive effects of minimum wage. Remember, a min wage DESTROYS all jobs where the productive output is LESS than the min wage.
A higher min wage is not a good basis for a thriving middle class. It shouldn't even be a "living wage" b/c teenagers get thrown out of work.
Why do you think BC has such a low minimum wage these days? How did they get away with introducing a $6 per hour training wage?? I work in construction..and I've noticed that the general starting wage has not changed at all for an incredibly long time...at least 15 years. This is part of what happens with a lack of private unions... My dad worked as a bricklayer in Toronto for many many years and at least had a pension on retirement. Young guys these days are building walls for $12/hour..
@paulfornasier The sad reality is that non specialized construction work is probably no longer a path to middle class. This is simply supply and demand of semi-skilled labor. In the US, Mexicans dominate the mkt. The entire world is flooded with an oversupply of low & semi-skilled workers. That means prices (wages) HAVE to come down. Unions can temporarily prop up the price of labor by excluding other workers who are willing to work for less. But then a black mkt for cheap labor develops.
Also known as mob rule, which is why the senior workers can stick it to the younger workers. Unions that agree to 2 and 3 tier wage structures reveal their true colors. The entrenched (senior workers) are protecting their OWN interests. So much for the motto, "Equal pay for equal work."
@danL1011 CUPW fought against the 2-tier pay structure forced on them by Canada Post and the Harper Government as best they could. CUPW is a pretty damn good union.
@Neurolanis [CUPW fought against the 2-tier pay structure]
I'll take your word for it as I had expressed my ignorance of Canada Post. My comment about 2 tier is a general comment. Of course, fighting against the 2 tier structure is meaningless if CUPW was not willing to give up something else.
Assuming Canada Post had a target number (reasonable or otherwise) for total wages & benefits, I suspect mgmt thought 2 tier was the only way to hit that target w/o other concessions.
@danL1011 CUPW will not allow themselves to be divided and conquered. That was the Cons' strategy all along. One phone call from Harper would have opened all the PO offices across the country. The Cons lied about the reason for the bill, and they even pretended not to know the difference between a strike and a lockout. Pathetic.
@danL1011 I apologize for my last remark. I see that you were being civil and just explaining your side. I just get angry when it comes to this stuff, I'm very passionate in my beliefs. Peace.
@Neurolanis Apology accepted. I understand your frustration. Here in the US, the Wall St. banks have basically hijacked the gov't and the economy. I once had a chance to work on Wall St. back in the early 90's. Even back then, I concluded that most of the wealth there was not generated by productive labor but rather the extraction of wealth from the productive labor of others. I chose to work elsewhere.
@danL1011 Thank you. A noble decision on your part. I am not against business, by the way. I have friends in business and I have thought of starting my own. I'd just like to see better times than these.
@danL1011 In Canada, a huge part of the work force was part of a labour union...whether public or private....in middle part of the 20th century. Trade union membership was extremely high. Without this collective action, we would likely not have developed a significant middle class in North America. The reverse is now happehing, as conservative govts are doing their best to erode labour unions...and dumping an ever increasing tax burden on the middle class....while giving corps a free ride...
@paulfornasier [Without this collective action, ...likely not have developed a significant middle class in North America.]
That's debatable. Henry Ford offered the best pay and working conditions PRIOR to the rise of unions. What unions have done in the last 50 years is given low-skilled union workers (thru high negotiated wages) the illusion that their productive output is worth what they were being paid. Globalization of labor has shattered that illusion.
@danL1011 Let's look at Canada Post again. The price for labour must be worthwhile, as the company is making good money...over $1 billion profit in the past 10 years.... I look at my Dad. He worked like a dog for years....with significant physical deterioration due to the difficulty of the work. He was paid well....but it doesnt come close to paying for the physical harm he suffered. I can't imagine what his life would have been without the support of a union to bargain collectively for them.
Well, there is the HUGE problem of executive compensation. Just 30+ years ago, the ratio of highest to lowest paid worker was roughly 60:1. Now it is more like 400:1 the last time I checked.
As for your Dad, physical labor takes its toll. Unfortunately, the reality today is that there are A LOT of Mexicans willing to do back breaking work for less.
@danL1011 The mexican thing is true in the US...not so true in Canada. Yes, we have mexicans...but I've really seen them only doing drywall and painting...but very very few.... Most of the unskilled labour is still basically just regular low paid low education Canadians....
@danL1011 Are you telling me that due to globalization of labour, we are supposed to lower ourselves to the standards of third world labour?? For one thing, we are starting to see the results of this...in the repetitive issue of the erosion of the middle class....which is eroding our consumer-oriented economy. The US is a prime example of erosion due to home prices falling to half their value...for no reason, other than corp greed. We are going backwards...longer work weeks...for less value..
@danL1011 What govts are totally neglecting these days is that a healthy middle class is needed to create a prosperous society. You state that benefits attributable to trade unions...are more from the results of a prosperous society. Trade unions are one of the backbones of a prosperous middle class. If you keep taxing the hell out of the middle class...and indebting them incredibly...eroding their earning power...then what do we end up with??? This is ANOTHER attack on the middle class...
@paulfornasier [Trade unions are one of the backbones of a prosperous middle class.]
The hollowing out of the middle class is indeed a problem. But this is more a problem of too much power by the controlling classes and corrupt government. Trade unions today are dinosaurs that serve little purpose other than enrich themselves at the expense of other workers. Note that trade unions are nearly non-existent in thriving industries. Public sector unions are parasites on the taxpayer.
@danL1011 I don't quite get the parasite part. Canada Post is a prosperous crown corporation. Also,....considering the vast landscape of Canada, the price of stamps in Canada is one of the lowest in the western world. They set the standard for such things as maternity benefits. The benefit of unions is stability in the public sector. I think we have to look at what it would be like to NOT have unions at all. Too much power in the employer's hands exacerbates the class problem you acknowledge...
@danL1011 I won't even start into debating the part about who we vote into office, Politicians are playing all kinds of games...and preying on fears to get into office these days. The vast majority have to no idea on how to navigate the financial decisions of govt....so they take a shot in the dark in regard to voting...or just plain vote on traditional lines... How did Bush manage to get elected twice? How do we manage to elect a govt that just put us into 7 years of deficit..??
@danL1011 I'm not a trade unionist....but I've been watching some of the battles with govt in BC..as an example. The attacks on the HEU..and the BCTU have been severe. Right wing govts are in full attack mode on the middle class...and unions are one of the only bulwarks we have right now. I can't imagine what would have happened to health workers and teachers without the work of trade unions to fight back.....and thankful to have the Charter also...
@Neurolanis [Since you believe in Corporatism, go f--k yourself. Good day, Sir.]
Where did that come from? What makes you think I support the corporation cronyism that is overtaking the western industrial world? You are blinded by your outrage. Very detrimental to critical thinking.
A lot of these office workers who don't belong to a union hate the unions. But if were not for the unions they would not be getting the wages or control over how many hours a week they work. If it were not for the unions we would probably still have child labour. These office workers don't realize that what ever they get all depends on how much the unions get after negotiations.
They want to destroy the public sector unions which will spread on down to the private sector trade unions so that they can impose their austerity measures. This is happening all over the world and people better start waking up to that fact. In the EU for some countries the people have woken up bit too late. This has been the global plan all along. The EU, NU, AU etc.. etc.. and eventually a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. living in total poverty and slavery.
@luwdmke [... to destroy the public sector unions...spread on down to the private sector trade unions...they can impose their austerity measures.]
You've got it backwards. Private sector unions are already dead. Public sector unions are still standing b/c taxpayers are NOT well represented and have gotten screwed for decades.
Austerity measures are being implemented b/c gov'ts are broke. In the case of the PIIGS countries, the world bankers are sticking it to the citizens of those countries.
Government leaders in this age of globalization ignore constitutions and bills of rights when it suits their purposes because they serve markets, not people.
I like how Lisa spouts off how the economy is suffering because of the postal strike. Funny, the Cons didn't care anything about the businesses last year when they held the G20 in downtown Toronto...bunch of lying harpocrites!!!
they should tell that fat brat call herself the minister of labour to go f*** herself, and make legistlation anyhow she want, don not pick up work, stand on the picket line and fight. Do not let the conservatives to screw unions!
Do not forget, the well fed people will always forget about the people are still hungry!!
Why not just negotiate with the postal workers. It is obvious their work is of high value to the nation for it to be able to shut down the nation. Instead you force them back to work? like wtf? what is this? the soviet union?
Soviet Union, now in the shape of a capitalistic pig. You don't work for soviet union. Soviet union works u! *whip whip*
It's pretty ridiculous what Canada post employees make. I hope the Conservatives privatize Canada Post along with the CBC and the myriad of other unsustainable crown corporations that are dragging the Canadian economy down.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I know a majority of the audience viewing this are probably on the postal worker's side on this issue... so my comment means no offense to any of you.
that being said. WOW. As an US Citizen I sincerely hope we can get someone HALF as good as Harper in the WH in 2012!! All the news i hear about him is AWESOME!
@asphyxiafeeling So you should probably stop riding the propaganda machine. Harper was basically impeached, but is running again. How is that possible? The man is an NWO shill. The government giveth and the government taketh away.
Now there's a great example of a strawman argument. I haven't proposed anything. Keep trying, except this time try to present an argument for YOUR position instead of arguing against what you think mine might be.
The report from the Ontario Osbudsman gave was not very good, apparently alot of inmates are being beaten and the incidents are being covered up. The thing is I really do not even know what the government or soon to be police state wants, it is like needless order and forced control, nothing is sound technically or intellectually.
@ReignbowSmite [No, I've just learned not to talk to you dogmatic capitalists.]
Let me get this straight. You claim no counter arguments, you swear and insult me w/ profanity. You offer no support for your position and now you claim that I am dogmatic. Uh, okay.
The Harper regime acts like it has a mandate to destroy the middle class in order to provide low-cost workers for his corporate sponsors but, in reality, only 40% of voters or 25% of the population of Canada voted for his draconian style of leadership. The progressive Rebuild the Dream movement that has begun in the U.S. is going to require a Canadian counterpart in order to combat the very well organized campaign of fundamentalist conservative/corporatists to create a modern serfdom.
@ReignbowSmite [... a f---king counter argument. You said "shopkeeper" v.s. "Mob" That presupposes the worker is always the guilty party.. the MOB. ...Stop being a dipsh-t.]
More profanity and insults w/o thought.
Duh? Mob for Mafia simply so that you'd understand the term 'protection money'. Why are you unable to understand there was NO PRESUMPTION of 'good guy' v. 'bad guy'? Can you still not see YOUR faulty logic to claim a strawman argument even after having it pointed out to you?
Always, always, always remember... the richest 1% care about YOU as much as YOU care about the people asking for change on the streets. If you view them with contempt, pity, disgust, and fear... that is most likely how the 1%ers view you... How much sleep do you lose over the homeless, that's right... none. The rich don't give a fuck about you and they control policy in this world. That is why you can vote till the cows come home and nothing good will happen. Don't vote: there is no hope.
@nilbud Nor I yours. Better just to sit and mull it over instead of flamin' me bro. Perhaps you can make the case for how the richest of the rich don't control policy. You didn’t, or rather couldn't. You know I am right but it flies in the face of what you believe and that wounds you... so you lashed out. You throw a tantrum and projected that I was the one throwing the tantrum. Now you are going to reply with something really nasty because I saw through you. Or maybe you won't we'll see.
@ReignbowSmite Actually, it has nothing to do with my political opinion. Collective bargaining is fine. However, if one party cannot walk away, then it is COERCION. Do you disagree with that? This is more like a shopkeeper paying the Mob 'protection money'. Sure he can try to bargain w/ the Mob but it's coercion.
People have rights, people have the right to assemble, people have the right to join unions. Unions (particularly public sector) do not have a 'right' to extort the other side.
@BoredomCorner The key difference is that the public sector jobs rely on the use of force and aggression to get the money in the first place. In the private sector you have to produce a good or service that there is actually demand for. The money that pays their salary is obtained to voluntary exchange with mutual benefit to both parties. An economy is any system that allocates goods and services.
@mjbarrowful No you fucking imbecile they don't. Can't you see how moronically duped you are? Nothing you describe is in any way true you gullible fucking tard,
@nilbud I'm not not dumb and taxes are not consensual. I'm not sure why you think I'm duped or gullible. I reread my comment and everything I wrote was accurate except I used the word "to" instead of "through".
It’s the public sectors turn. Their done with the private sector. That’s been drained dry. When the Vampire elites have finished with the public sector workers they will move on to the retired workers.
Another BS Police State interference issue that will not be forgotton. Every time these Ass H%$#'s open their mouths and then enforce legislation against the people will widen the riff amongst Canadians and move us closer to civil unrest and possible civil war further down the road.
@BoredomCorner Collective bargaining is a privilege, not a 'right'. Rights do not involve coercion of the other party. If the other side cannot walk away, then it's a shakedown.
See also "Walter Williams, Public Employee Unions" to understand the difference between public sector unions and PRIVATE sector unions.
@BoredomCorner The Supreme Court (in the US anyway) gets a lot of things wrong. The entire case history of labor laws is riddled with contradictions. Unions are allowed to engage in activities deemed illegal if engaged in by others.
@allgoo19 I'd tell you to read up on Supreme Court rulings, particularly during the FDR administration but we both know you are too lazy. You can also read up on the convoluted opinion on why MLB is not a business.
@allgoo19 [And who gets to decide right or wrong?] one supreme court decision contradicts another [Cato?] We both know, you are the lazy one. [Does that make one being more right than others?] Apparently, it's you deciding one is right over others [Whose pay roll are you on?] We both know you have no brain. [I suppose it's you?] Bwaaahaha. allgoo19 is a clown without a mirror.
@allgoo19 There's no denying danl is a low iq type with some hilariously stupid notions about the world but your fucking retarded paranoid babbling is a pain in the hole.
@nilbud LOL. "The Henny Youngman of Profanity" goes after "The Clown without a Mirror". At least you were smart enough NOT to engage me directly with your insult since your last smack-down.
Research has shown that a low IQ is positively correlated with people who compulsively post one line insults. In one hour, nilbud has posted FIVE such insults to different people. The reader is left to draw his own conclusion.
@allgoo19 [Conversation = Babbling to yourself] "What I'm advocating will help myself" "Apparently, it's you deciding" "So, whose pay roll are you on?" "I don't need to to get paid for that" "You already admit that...you are the lazy one." "Only reason you get benefit is to make..questions and answers...on it." "What I'm advocating will help ...your friend & family ...and the whole society." "which part of my comment?" Hint: It's ALL yours! Bwaaahaha, allgoo19, the clown who talks to himself.
ur right I'm still jet lagged -_-' yea well the lesson here is well companies, CEOs and the super rich get their way at our expense all the time, and who are we to argue against this clearly we are less human than they are. Clearly they shit out gold... The last ten years has made me this cynical of a person in seeing the future outlook of things. I never had a chance.
DO you notice how conservative govts in both the US and Canada constantly push themselves to the brink of overspending....with project investment...tax subsidies...and tax reductions?? I saw it both in BC provincially...and federally.......and then they think they have the right to hack away at the middle class as a result. This gives them permission to hack at trade unions and middle class taxpayers... This is BAD economic management..and we end up paying the bill...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier Here in the US, it's the Democrats (liberals) who are the big spenders.
Trade unions and middle class taxpayers are two separate entities. I wouldn't conflate the two.
Nice chatting w/ you. Gotta go for now.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Cool...I would challenge you on who is the spender in the US. What was the cost of Bush's wars..and his tax cuts when he was already deep in deficit? How about cost of tax subsidies? What transformed the Democrat surplus into a huge deficit? There are many factors to look at.....I don't think party lines do justice to any of it....
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [who is the spender in the US]
Not sure how interested you are in Amer. politics. Obama has quadrupled the deficit in 2 years since Bush left office. Both parties are beholden to corp. interests and the military ind. complex. Military spending ratchets upward regardless of party. The main difference is that Democrats also try to buy votes from deadbeat Americans by giving freebies. Hence they tend to be the big spenders. Republicans think tax cuts work like pixie dust.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I agree that they are both to blame..both the dems and the GOP. The deficit can't be blamed completely on Obama, as the GOP set the stage for the collapse of the american economy. I can't imagine what the effect would be in Canada if home prices dropped to 50% of vaiue. Our govt still managed to sink us deep into deficit....now based almost completely on lost revenue due to extensive tax cuts....as stimulus spending has all but wrapped up...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier Obama is completely to blame for HIS deficit. The US is now in 3 wars instead of 2. All the stimulus money was totally wasted, TARP II... Everything Obama touches turns to mud. btw, I'm not a fan of Bush.
As for the housing debacle, Greenspan and then B. Frank are chief culprits. All the crooks from bankers to mortgage lenders to RE agents to deadbeat home debtors were just acting rationally to easy money.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I don't think it was that simple. There was clear fraud...from the rating agencies...to the creators of the mortgage security packages....i.e. Goldman Sachs. Hard to blame Obama completely when the world was in unprecedented crisis. The whole world had this stupid idea of stimulus.... You have to look at the SOURCE of the crisis. The Bush admin had alot of opportunity to deal with the crisis over the years. It was apparent already back in about 2004/05...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier Obama inherited a mess for sure. He's done nothing right since he got into office. btw, the Bush admin warned Congress about the impending mortgage problem. It was Barney Frank who ignored the problem.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 OK..but Frank only served as head of the Financial Services Committee from 2007 - 2011. Who else had responsibility for the regulation of banks / wall street behaviour? Why didn't the Bush admin investigate the bank behaviour at all.....rather than throw money at them....with little public transparency? They had strong ties with Goldman...let's not forget that... I don't know the full details about their dealings with Goldman...but it sure looks suspicious....
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier I don't want to get into a discussion about the financial crisis. It all started at the end of the Clinton admin with the decision NOT to regulate the derivatives business (shadow banking industry). It went downhill from there. As for Frank, he spearheaded Fannie and Freddie giving home loans to unqualified borrowers. This is a money pit the US taxpayer continues to pay for. See YT videos of him BS'ing while taking testimony from Bush's Sec. of Treasury.
Hey, gotta go.
danL1011 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@paulfornasier [Why didn't the Bush admin investigate the bank behaviour at all]
Just one more thing. Hank Paulson orchestrated the largest bank heist in the history of America. I was glad to see him go only to see Obama appoint his protege, Geithner AND reappoint Bernanke. Nothing's changed.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Oh..and the latest war is absolutely minimal compared to the rest.....it's a drop in the bucket for the US, compared to Afghanistan and Iraq.... I don't want to get into the pros and cons of it....it will sidetrack our debate...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier Oh, don't get me wrong about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush was an idiot to turn 9/11 (when Muslims were sympathetic) into an opportunity to wage war in Iraq. The hunt for bin Laden was bogus. And since when did the Taliban become our enemy? Bush has managed to turn the entire Islamic world against the US.
The problem is that Obama promised to get out. It's like Bush is still in office.
danL1011 8 months ago 2
@danL1011 I agree with everything you state about Bin Laden and the wars. I don't think Bush cared at all about finding or killing Bin Laden. I agree with you completely. A surgical strike was all that was likely needed if Bin Laden was found to be responsible for 9/11. True...anyone who knew Afghanistan could have predicted the longevity and fulitily of such a war. I travelled to NW Pakistan about 30 years ago..and got to know full well about the tribal resistance to outside interference...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 And yes...it's like Bush is still in office. I often watch TYT..and they refer to the dems as Republican lite...and it's very true.... I really think the US needs a third option...and not the Tea Party....LOL
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 Back in the 60's and 70's, you could easily have a man working to support a decent sized family...and have the ability to buy and pay for a house. That is still the case in some parts of North America...but there are many places where that is not the case. In Canada, that has generally not been the case in large urban centers for many many years... I live, of course, near Vancouver....which has the highest priced real estate around.....aveerage house price value over $800k..
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 And thanks for the chat. Nice to have a civil discussion ...and staying on topic. I appreciate it.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
Worldwide the Conservative Scum is ruining democracy !
HousekaterClaudio 8 months ago
NEVER FORGET THE CRACKDOWN ON DISSENT AT APEC IN 1997.
FREE JAGGI SINGH!
Shukria123 8 months ago
US Postal Service cant go on strike they have a no strike clause in union contract
f328owner 8 months ago
Thanks for reporting on this. The mainstream media always twists these stories to make unions look greedy and unreasonable, when exactly the opposite is true and that is why we have unions in the first place.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [make unions look greedy and unreasonable]
Well, they usually are.
If you were to hire someone to mow your lawn, would you accept a strike where the worker said he would only mow the "essential" areas around your flower bed while "negotiating" with you?
Most likely you'd "lock" him out and find another person to mow your lawn.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 You really, really need to read history. Before unions, we had no weekends off and child labour! Now we also have better pay, health and safety regulations and paid vacations thanks to the unions. Big corporations don't give a DAMN about the people. Only the bottom line. History tells the story.
If I had a company that was making a TON of money and was only paying a small percentage of the profit with my workers I would be ashamed. I am not a heartless bastard.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [If I had a company ...]
If you owned a lawn mowing service, would you accept a strike where the workers said they would only mow the "essential" customers' lawn? Most likely you'd find other workers.
[need to read history]
Proximity is not causality. Ford Motor Co. had the highest wages and best working conditions of the auto companies PRIOR to the unions. Competition for good workers drives better working conditions -- not unions. e.g. Silicon Valley.
danL1011 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [I am not a heartless bastard.]
The good workers would flock to YOUR co. where their hard work will be rewarded. You would fire the lazy workers who would then unionize at other cos. and strike for equal pay & comp. as at your co. But there, the workers give up 5% to pay for union dues.
The customers would flock to YOUR co. b/c the other cos. are LESS competitive due to strikes and a less productive workforce hampered by union rules.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Generally unions benefit everyone, the entire economy. Companies can be reasonable and offer fair wages, etc. But many large corporations (such as Canada Post) will screw over their workers every way they can. They did this before and after unions were formed.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [Generally unions benefit everyone]
Unions benefit themselves at the expense of other workers. When they can no longer squeeze the employer, the senior union workers stick it to the younger workers w/ 2 tier wages. This usually precedes bankruptcy CAUSED by the union.
Canada Post (which I am not familiar with since I'm American) probably suffers from the same problems as most private businesses granted a gov't monopoly -- they get fat and bloated at ALL levels.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Some unions are corrupt, sure. But generally they work for their workers. It is a democratic process where the workers vote in their leaders to represent them. We have weekends off, NO child labour, and many other basic rights thanks to unions.
Canada Post profits hundreds of millions of dollars in sheer profit every year, and has recently spent over 2 billion dollars to make the company more high-tech. They have upped their CEO's salary and now drastically downed their workers'.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [has recently spent over 2 billion dollars to make the company more high-tech. ]
Speaking of reading history, you should research the history of automation in heavily unionized industries. Basically, when unions strong arm employers to an unreasonable level (e.g. wages far in excess of the productivity achieved), the co. looks for substitution such as automation and off-shoring. Unions often price themselves out of a job.
Outsized executive compensation is a problem in the US too.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Big corporations can leave anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Better for smaller businesses. Free Trade is just a centralization of wealth anyway, taking jobs to foreign countries for slave wages and allowing foreign businessmen to buy up our companies. I'm sick of seeing the people suffer. In Canada, we have many natural resources and are not grossly over-populated. But our economy is controlled by a foreign bank, who thus control our economy. Corporatism is emerging.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [We have weekends off, NO child labour, and many other basic rights thanks to unions.]
These are a function of a more prosperous and productive society -- not unions. Proximity is not causality. These trends would have continued with or without unions.
btw, guess who were the major supporters of a higher minimum wage for black workers in South Africa?
ans: racist white labor unions. See if you can figure that one out. Hint: "NO child labor"
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 You're FULL of it! Are you lying to me or to yourself? Unions fought against these injustices and by amazing coincidence, the changes were made. LOl.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [Unions fought against these injustices and by amazing coincidence...]
Proximity is not causality. For another example, if you were to research civil rights in the US, you would find that American blacks were making progress at a faster rate PRIOR to the civil rights movement. Just like you, civil rights activists are CONVINCED that all that marching in the 60's led to advancement for blacks. In fact, black advancement reversed course w/ LBJ's War on Poverty.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 There are various factors that go into things like that. Stop reaching.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [Stop reaching.]
Reaching for what? Causality is never an easy thing to prove. People often mistake proximity and correlation for causality.
Did you ever figure out why racist white labor unions were the primary supporters for raising the minimum wage for blacks in South Africa?
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 You keep repeating the same bs over and over again about racist white labour unions. Why is that your constant choice for an example? Is that all that exists for you?? Unions in Canada have created many thresholds for workers, especially in the health and safety field. The right to refuse unsafe work, the right to safe working conditions... Collective action reduced the working day to an 8 hour day.....and also played a large part in ending child labour.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [bs ...about racist white labour unions.]
Fact, not bs at all. The example w/ S. African white labor unions is simply a glaring example of unions looking out only for themselves.
[ending child labour]
See if you can figure out the parallel between this and racist white labor unions supporting raising the minimum wage for blacks in S. Africa.
Better working conditions improve with general prosperity, not unions. Most of the best companies to work for today are non union.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 OK...not meaning bs...but it becomes redundant when repeated over and over... and why focus on a racist labour union??
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [why focus on a racist labour union?]
Don't you see the irony? A white racist union championing higher wages for blacks? I'm not sure you understand why. I'll let you think about it for a while. If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Just tell me....I don't like the use of that paradigm.... But my guess is that they would benefit from the raising of wages for low-paid workers.... And that doens't seem like a terrible thing to me.. We need collective forces to raise standards at time...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Just tell me]
Remember I told you unions lock other workers out. The white racist unions wanted to raise the min wage for blacks so that blacks would be locked out. How so? A racist white company that might have previously hired black workers at lower wages now has NO incentive to hire a black worker at the same wage as a white worker.
This is the inverse to BC's lower min training wage which is actually a good thing for low skilled workers who otherwise would NEVER in.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I get that the training wage is good for businesses. If govt doesn't step in, then wages are a result of supply and demand. In more difficult times, the worker loses out. I don't get that the training wage is good for new workers. It's good for cheap businesses...and may result in some lower prices...but that is not necessarily good for society in the large picture. I started working in 1976 for $2.65 per hour. Look at how much prices have risen and how little min wage has risen.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [I don't get that the training wage is good for new workers.]
Minimum wage kills jobs. A job w/ a productive value worth LESS than the min wage simply DISAPPEARS. That is why there are no more movie ushers and kids helping old ladies put groceries in their cars. In the 40's, black US teenagers had a HIGHER employment rate than whites. Today most can't find a job thanks to min wage.
Similarly, a training wage is like lowering the min wage -- good for new workers w/ no skills.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I hear you...but you have to look at wages historically. Why is the bottom level hardly rising at all, when compared to the rise in cost of living? You can turn it around and say that innovation is driven by necessity...which is generally quite true... The market always adapts... Even back in the 60's and 70's, therre was a minimum wage.....and it was a much more livable wage... Again..the more the mid class gets crunched, the more we have to work to maintain a decent life...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Why is the bottom level hardly rising at all]
Because there are more unskilled workers than jobs. To combat that, people THINK we need to raise the min wage to a "living wage". But all that does is pay the lucky unskilled workers (probably union) MORE than they are worth in the mkt.
So, over decades, unskilled workers fight for those few jobs (like cushy UAW jobs) instead of acquiring NEW skill for better jobs.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I agree that there are factors that have kept the min wage low. My guess in Canada is that it is tied to an incredible increase in the female labour force over time...many of whom work part-time in service industries (another area with major increase). The other end is major companies like Walmart and others who have resisted organized labour.. Letting the market decide wages...is giving employers virtually all the power. Employees will ALWAYS suffer without some collective action.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Letting the market decide wages...is giving employers virtually all the power.]
You forget that employers have to compete for workers. In Silicon Valley, companies do that with high wages, free health club memberships, free food, etc. Low skill workers in the industrialized world will suffer for decades to come b/c there is an oversupply of them.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I agree that there is an oversupply.....but I think you need to keep some decent minimum standards. I'm not advocating for some large hike. We will likely get $10/hour minimum soon in BC, as it seems to be a current standard that is developing across the country... I think it's all a balance. You can't destroy the middle class...because it destroys the economy...and we start becoming more like a developing country.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@paulfornasier [We will likely get $10/hour minimum soon in BC]
There are some YT videos by Milton Friedman and Walter Williams on the destructive effects of minimum wage. Remember, a min wage DESTROYS all jobs where the productive output is LESS than the min wage.
A higher min wage is not a good basis for a thriving middle class. It shouldn't even be a "living wage" b/c teenagers get thrown out of work.
danL1011 8 months ago
Why do you think BC has such a low minimum wage these days? How did they get away with introducing a $6 per hour training wage?? I work in construction..and I've noticed that the general starting wage has not changed at all for an incredibly long time...at least 15 years. This is part of what happens with a lack of private unions... My dad worked as a bricklayer in Toronto for many many years and at least had a pension on retirement. Young guys these days are building walls for $12/hour..
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier The sad reality is that non specialized construction work is probably no longer a path to middle class. This is simply supply and demand of semi-skilled labor. In the US, Mexicans dominate the mkt. The entire world is flooded with an oversupply of low & semi-skilled workers. That means prices (wages) HAVE to come down. Unions can temporarily prop up the price of labor by excluding other workers who are willing to work for less. But then a black mkt for cheap labor develops.
danL1011 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [It is a democratic process...]
Also known as mob rule, which is why the senior workers can stick it to the younger workers. Unions that agree to 2 and 3 tier wage structures reveal their true colors. The entrenched (senior workers) are protecting their OWN interests. So much for the motto, "Equal pay for equal work."
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 CUPW fought against the 2-tier pay structure forced on them by Canada Post and the Harper Government as best they could. CUPW is a pretty damn good union.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis [CUPW fought against the 2-tier pay structure]
I'll take your word for it as I had expressed my ignorance of Canada Post. My comment about 2 tier is a general comment. Of course, fighting against the 2 tier structure is meaningless if CUPW was not willing to give up something else.
Assuming Canada Post had a target number (reasonable or otherwise) for total wages & benefits, I suspect mgmt thought 2 tier was the only way to hit that target w/o other concessions.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 CUPW will not allow themselves to be divided and conquered. That was the Cons' strategy all along. One phone call from Harper would have opened all the PO offices across the country. The Cons lied about the reason for the bill, and they even pretended not to know the difference between a strike and a lockout. Pathetic.
Neurolanis 8 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
@Neurolanis [they even pretended not to know the difference between a strike and a lockout. ]
How do you tell when a politician is lying? When their lips move. It doesn't matter what side they are on.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I apologize for my last remark. I see that you were being civil and just explaining your side. I just get angry when it comes to this stuff, I'm very passionate in my beliefs. Peace.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@Neurolanis Apology accepted. I understand your frustration. Here in the US, the Wall St. banks have basically hijacked the gov't and the economy. I once had a chance to work on Wall St. back in the early 90's. Even back then, I concluded that most of the wealth there was not generated by productive labor but rather the extraction of wealth from the productive labor of others. I chose to work elsewhere.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Thank you. A noble decision on your part. I am not against business, by the way. I have friends in business and I have thought of starting my own. I'd just like to see better times than these.
Neurolanis 8 months ago
@danL1011 In Canada, a huge part of the work force was part of a labour union...whether public or private....in middle part of the 20th century. Trade union membership was extremely high. Without this collective action, we would likely not have developed a significant middle class in North America. The reverse is now happehing, as conservative govts are doing their best to erode labour unions...and dumping an ever increasing tax burden on the middle class....while giving corps a free ride...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Without this collective action, ...likely not have developed a significant middle class in North America.]
That's debatable. Henry Ford offered the best pay and working conditions PRIOR to the rise of unions. What unions have done in the last 50 years is given low-skilled union workers (thru high negotiated wages) the illusion that their productive output is worth what they were being paid. Globalization of labor has shattered that illusion.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 Let's look at Canada Post again. The price for labour must be worthwhile, as the company is making good money...over $1 billion profit in the past 10 years.... I look at my Dad. He worked like a dog for years....with significant physical deterioration due to the difficulty of the work. He was paid well....but it doesnt come close to paying for the physical harm he suffered. I can't imagine what his life would have been without the support of a union to bargain collectively for them.
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Let's look at Canada Post again.]
Well, there is the HUGE problem of executive compensation. Just 30+ years ago, the ratio of highest to lowest paid worker was roughly 60:1. Now it is more like 400:1 the last time I checked.
As for your Dad, physical labor takes its toll. Unfortunately, the reality today is that there are A LOT of Mexicans willing to do back breaking work for less.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 The mexican thing is true in the US...not so true in Canada. Yes, we have mexicans...but I've really seen them only doing drywall and painting...but very very few.... Most of the unskilled labour is still basically just regular low paid low education Canadians....
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 Are you telling me that due to globalization of labour, we are supposed to lower ourselves to the standards of third world labour?? For one thing, we are starting to see the results of this...in the repetitive issue of the erosion of the middle class....which is eroding our consumer-oriented economy. The US is a prime example of erosion due to home prices falling to half their value...for no reason, other than corp greed. We are going backwards...longer work weeks...for less value..
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 What govts are totally neglecting these days is that a healthy middle class is needed to create a prosperous society. You state that benefits attributable to trade unions...are more from the results of a prosperous society. Trade unions are one of the backbones of a prosperous middle class. If you keep taxing the hell out of the middle class...and indebting them incredibly...eroding their earning power...then what do we end up with??? This is ANOTHER attack on the middle class...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [Trade unions are one of the backbones of a prosperous middle class.]
The hollowing out of the middle class is indeed a problem. But this is more a problem of too much power by the controlling classes and corrupt government. Trade unions today are dinosaurs that serve little purpose other than enrich themselves at the expense of other workers. Note that trade unions are nearly non-existent in thriving industries. Public sector unions are parasites on the taxpayer.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I don't quite get the parasite part. Canada Post is a prosperous crown corporation. Also,....considering the vast landscape of Canada, the price of stamps in Canada is one of the lowest in the western world. They set the standard for such things as maternity benefits. The benefit of unions is stability in the public sector. I think we have to look at what it would be like to NOT have unions at all. Too much power in the employer's hands exacerbates the class problem you acknowledge...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@paulfornasier [I don't quite get the parasite part.]
See YT, "Walter Williams, Public Employee Unions".
Basically, public sector unions are negotiating w/ the politicians they put in office and not the taxpayer who is footing the bill.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 I won't even start into debating the part about who we vote into office, Politicians are playing all kinds of games...and preying on fears to get into office these days. The vast majority have to no idea on how to navigate the financial decisions of govt....so they take a shot in the dark in regard to voting...or just plain vote on traditional lines... How did Bush manage to get elected twice? How do we manage to elect a govt that just put us into 7 years of deficit..??
paulfornasier 8 months ago
@danL1011 I'm not a trade unionist....but I've been watching some of the battles with govt in BC..as an example. The attacks on the HEU..and the BCTU have been severe. Right wing govts are in full attack mode on the middle class...and unions are one of the only bulwarks we have right now. I can't imagine what would have happened to health workers and teachers without the work of trade unions to fight back.....and thankful to have the Charter also...
paulfornasier 8 months ago
Comment removed
Neurolanis 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Neurolanis [Since you believe in Corporatism, go f--k yourself. Good day, Sir.]
Where did that come from? What makes you think I support the corporation cronyism that is overtaking the western industrial world? You are blinded by your outrage. Very detrimental to critical thinking.
danL1011 8 months ago
A lot of these office workers who don't belong to a union hate the unions. But if were not for the unions they would not be getting the wages or control over how many hours a week they work. If it were not for the unions we would probably still have child labour. These office workers don't realize that what ever they get all depends on how much the unions get after negotiations.
luwdmke 8 months ago
They want to destroy the public sector unions which will spread on down to the private sector trade unions so that they can impose their austerity measures. This is happening all over the world and people better start waking up to that fact. In the EU for some countries the people have woken up bit too late. This has been the global plan all along. The EU, NU, AU etc.. etc.. and eventually a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. living in total poverty and slavery.
luwdmke 8 months ago
@luwdmke [... to destroy the public sector unions...spread on down to the private sector trade unions...they can impose their austerity measures.]
You've got it backwards. Private sector unions are already dead. Public sector unions are still standing b/c taxpayers are NOT well represented and have gotten screwed for decades.
Austerity measures are being implemented b/c gov'ts are broke. In the case of the PIIGS countries, the world bankers are sticking it to the citizens of those countries.
danL1011 8 months ago
Government leaders in this age of globalization ignore constitutions and bills of rights when it suits their purposes because they serve markets, not people.
blackiron60 8 months ago
Most people I meet at work and elsewhere are very hostile to the striking postal workers. Solidarity and sympathy are a thing of the past.
Arkinight 8 months ago
I like how Lisa spouts off how the economy is suffering because of the postal strike. Funny, the Cons didn't care anything about the businesses last year when they held the G20 in downtown Toronto...bunch of lying harpocrites!!!
everybody21990 8 months ago
they should tell that fat brat call herself the minister of labour to go f*** herself, and make legistlation anyhow she want, don not pick up work, stand on the picket line and fight. Do not let the conservatives to screw unions!
Do not forget, the well fed people will always forget about the people are still hungry!!
Go UNIONS!
plavi99 8 months ago
Why not just negotiate with the postal workers. It is obvious their work is of high value to the nation for it to be able to shut down the nation. Instead you force them back to work? like wtf? what is this? the soviet union?
Soviet Union, now in the shape of a capitalistic pig. You don't work for soviet union. Soviet union works u! *whip whip*
BrutusAlbion 8 months ago
i keep hearing this ridiculous "canada can't afford this strike" - well how about you just give workers what they want?! jeez!
notthere83 8 months ago 4
I guess we might be seeing Greece style riots in Canada in the very near future.
doc7474 8 months ago 4
It's pretty ridiculous what Canada post employees make. I hope the Conservatives privatize Canada Post along with the CBC and the myriad of other unsustainable crown corporations that are dragging the Canadian economy down.
MyOwnYTAccount 8 months ago
@MyOwnYTAccount Just because you're a penniless idiotic shitbag working in a burger joint doesn't mean everyone deserves to live like you.
nilbud 8 months ago
when did the people, when did the workers become the enemy?
masluxx 8 months ago 2
I laugh my ass off every time I read the comments on your guys videos! Who are these people anyway???
xAZAZELx13 8 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I know a majority of the audience viewing this are probably on the postal worker's side on this issue... so my comment means no offense to any of you.
that being said. WOW. As an US Citizen I sincerely hope we can get someone HALF as good as Harper in the WH in 2012!! All the news i hear about him is AWESOME!
asphyxiafeeling 8 months ago
@asphyxiafeeling Why not go for 100x better... Ron Paul!
Eron55555 8 months ago
@asphyxiafeeling So you should probably stop riding the propaganda machine. Harper was basically impeached, but is running again. How is that possible? The man is an NWO shill. The government giveth and the government taketh away.
chop98 8 months ago 4
@ReignbowSmite [What you are proposing...]
Now there's a great example of a strawman argument. I haven't proposed anything. Keep trying, except this time try to present an argument for YOUR position instead of arguing against what you think mine might be.
danL1011 8 months ago
The report from the Ontario Osbudsman gave was not very good, apparently alot of inmates are being beaten and the incidents are being covered up. The thing is I really do not even know what the government or soon to be police state wants, it is like needless order and forced control, nothing is sound technically or intellectually.
yuri35435 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReignbowSmite [No, I've just learned not to talk to you dogmatic capitalists.]
Let me get this straight. You claim no counter arguments, you swear and insult me w/ profanity. You offer no support for your position and now you claim that I am dogmatic. Uh, okay.
danL1011 8 months ago
@ReignbowSmite [Neither party can walk away! Don't you get it?]
I believe that's called totalitarianism.
[This is to protect the workers from the company walking away from them.]
Def: coerce - to compel or restrain by force or authority without regard to individual wishes or desires.
For a one person proprietor, the coercion should be obvious even to you. For a larger company or even government, it is still coercion.
What's wrong with Walmart? No one is forcing the workers to work there.
danL1011 8 months ago
Back to work and stfu bill...
Corporatist conservatives... fuck off.
mrx0066600 8 months ago
The Internet killed the post office.... We don't need the labor or the management,
btigtime2 8 months ago
The Harper regime acts like it has a mandate to destroy the middle class in order to provide low-cost workers for his corporate sponsors but, in reality, only 40% of voters or 25% of the population of Canada voted for his draconian style of leadership. The progressive Rebuild the Dream movement that has begun in the U.S. is going to require a Canadian counterpart in order to combat the very well organized campaign of fundamentalist conservative/corporatists to create a modern serfdom.
1140Cecile 8 months ago 8
@ReignbowSmite [... a f---king counter argument. You said "shopkeeper" v.s. "Mob" That presupposes the worker is always the guilty party.. the MOB. ...Stop being a dipsh-t.]
More profanity and insults w/o thought.
Duh? Mob for Mafia simply so that you'd understand the term 'protection money'. Why are you unable to understand there was NO PRESUMPTION of 'good guy' v. 'bad guy'? Can you still not see YOUR faulty logic to claim a strawman argument even after having it pointed out to you?
danL1011 8 months ago
@ReignbowSmite [No, because I don't agree with you anti taxer free market morons.]
Insults, the last refuge of someone with nothing meaningful to say.
I take it you have no answer to my question:
"...if one party cannot walk away, then it is COERCION. Do you disagree with that?"
danL1011 8 months ago
wages should go up as the money supply goes up therefore everyone on this planet should get a raise...prosperity, not austerity is the solution
mike6459 8 months ago
As a small business owner my sales are down 25% because of the strike
mike6459 8 months ago
@mike6459 Lockout.
1140Cecile 8 months ago 2
As a small busness owner my sales are down 25% because of the strike
mike6459 8 months ago
Well this is what happens when the majority vote for someone new but get someone chosen for them instead...Democracy is a sham.
chocomalk 8 months ago
Management PIGS. Workers HEROES.
raspberrybaggio 8 months ago
Hey Canadians.. welcome to American politics :P
boricuamm707 8 months ago
Always, always, always remember... the richest 1% care about YOU as much as YOU care about the people asking for change on the streets. If you view them with contempt, pity, disgust, and fear... that is most likely how the 1%ers view you... How much sleep do you lose over the homeless, that's right... none. The rich don't give a fuck about you and they control policy in this world. That is why you can vote till the cows come home and nothing good will happen. Don't vote: there is no hope.
elbowbiter1 8 months ago
@elbowbiter1 I'm not a rich man but I don't give a fuck about you or your childish tantrum.
nilbud 8 months ago
@nilbud Nor I yours. Better just to sit and mull it over instead of flamin' me bro. Perhaps you can make the case for how the richest of the rich don't control policy. You didn’t, or rather couldn't. You know I am right but it flies in the face of what you believe and that wounds you... so you lashed out. You throw a tantrum and projected that I was the one throwing the tantrum. Now you are going to reply with something really nasty because I saw through you. Or maybe you won't we'll see.
elbowbiter1 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReignbowSmite [You run into an imbalance of power.]
Public sector unions by definition represents an imbalance of power between workers and taxpayers. See "Walter Williams, Public Employee Unions"
danL1011 8 months ago
@ReignbowSmite [bs: Government = Mafia Proletariat = Mob.]
How did you arrive at this conclusion? The analogy is that a shopkeeper is being extorted. There is NO assumption re: who is good v. bad.
An employer (good or bad) who cannot walk away is being coerced just like the shopkeeper. YOUR counterargument is the strawman. Sorry.
An individual's rights end where it impinges on the rights of another (i.e. the right to not hire you at the compensation you demand).
danL1011 8 months ago
@ReignbowSmite Actually, it has nothing to do with my political opinion. Collective bargaining is fine. However, if one party cannot walk away, then it is COERCION. Do you disagree with that? This is more like a shopkeeper paying the Mob 'protection money'. Sure he can try to bargain w/ the Mob but it's coercion.
People have rights, people have the right to assemble, people have the right to join unions. Unions (particularly public sector) do not have a 'right' to extort the other side.
danL1011 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
wow i would not come back to work
restlys 8 months ago
Time for a genral strike?
MEbayB 8 months ago
If you want me to believe that the entire bargaining unit is striking over the wages of new hires, I have some swampland in Florida to sell you.
Mahoivlich 8 months ago
Thanks for covering this TRNN!
AudioForAnarchists 8 months ago 3
Very good to see the English language subtitles here.
slobomotion 8 months ago
hooray. canada now has WORKCHOICES
4fear4hunger4pride 8 months ago
@4fear4hunger4pride How do you come to that conclusion? Apparently you now have to do what Harper tells you to.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago
@BoredomCorner google WORKCHOICES australia before you ask questions
4fear4hunger4pride 7 months ago
"public sector" is just a nice term used to describe people that get paid with other people's money
mjbarrowful 8 months ago
@mjbarrowful ...EVERYONE is paid with other people's money! That's the entire definition of an economy.
Christ, why does the right-wing attract all of the idiots?
BoredomCorner 8 months ago 3
@BoredomCorner The key difference is that the public sector jobs rely on the use of force and aggression to get the money in the first place. In the private sector you have to produce a good or service that there is actually demand for. The money that pays their salary is obtained to voluntary exchange with mutual benefit to both parties. An economy is any system that allocates goods and services.
mjbarrowful 8 months ago
@mjbarrowful No you fucking imbecile they don't. Can't you see how moronically duped you are? Nothing you describe is in any way true you gullible fucking tard,
nilbud 8 months ago
@nilbud I'm not not dumb and taxes are not consensual. I'm not sure why you think I'm duped or gullible. I reread my comment and everything I wrote was accurate except I used the word "to" instead of "through".
my bad
mjbarrowful 8 months ago
It’s the public sectors turn. Their done with the private sector. That’s been drained dry. When the Vampire elites have finished with the public sector workers they will move on to the retired workers.
workwillfreeyou 8 months ago
@workwillfreeyou That's funny, the private sector seems to be doing rather well.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago
screw canada post.. keep them out forever.. these politicians know jack. school teachers and cbc should be targetted next.
navtel 8 months ago
@navtel Duhh duh duhhh duh duhhh
nilbud 8 months ago
How can a contract be imposed?
A contract is an agreement between two or more CONSENTING parties...
DackIsBack 8 months ago 2
@DackIsBack A little thing called "back to work" legislation.
We're talking about a government that thinks it's above the law.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago 15
@BoredomCorner Since you got 6 thumbs up, I thought I'd break it to you, the gov't makes the laws. Duh?
danL1011 8 months ago
Another BS Police State interference issue that will not be forgotton. Every time these Ass H%$#'s open their mouths and then enforce legislation against the people will widen the riff amongst Canadians and move us closer to civil unrest and possible civil war further down the road.
2minstral 8 months ago 12
@2minstral Unfortunately it will be forgotten.
Arkinight 8 months ago
Mail IS an essential service.
surfboardhacker 8 months ago
@surfboardhacker True, but collective bargaining is also a court-protected right.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago
@BoredomCorner Collective bargaining is a privilege, not a 'right'. Rights do not involve coercion of the other party. If the other side cannot walk away, then it's a shakedown.
See also "Walter Williams, Public Employee Unions" to understand the difference between public sector unions and PRIVATE sector unions.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago
@BoredomCorner The Supreme Court (in the US anyway) gets a lot of things wrong. The entire case history of labor laws is riddled with contradictions. Unions are allowed to engage in activities deemed illegal if engaged in by others.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "The Supreme Court (in the US anyway) gets a lot of things wrong."
And who gets decide right or wrong?
I suppose it's you?
Whose payroll are you on, danL1011? Cato?
allgoo19 8 months ago
@allgoo19 I'd tell you to read up on Supreme Court rulings, particularly during the FDR administration but we both know you are too lazy. You can also read up on the convoluted opinion on why MLB is not a business.
You are still a clown without a mirror.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "I'd tell you to read up on Supreme Court ruling.."
We both know, you are the lazy one.
You don't know any issue one supreme court decision contradicts another in different times? Does that make one being more right than others?
Apparently, it's you deciding one is right over others because you just like it.
Answer, "Whose pay roll are you on?"
allgoo19 8 months ago
@allgoo19 Bwaaahaha. You are a clown.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "Bwaaahaha. You are a clown."
We both know you have no brain.
Whose pay roll are you on?
allgoo19 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
danL1011 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@danL1011 "[And who gets to decide right or wrong?] one supreme court decision contradicts another [Cato?]"
Again, once you are in the corner, you start babbling things don't make any sense.
What's the point of showing up here without any purposes if not for being paid?
Is that your answer, you are paid by Cato?
allgoo19 8 months ago
@allgoo19 There's no denying danl is a low iq type with some hilariously stupid notions about the world but your fucking retarded paranoid babbling is a pain in the hole.
nilbud 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nilbud "your fucking retarded paranoid babbling is a pain in the hole."
Look, who's babbling?
allgoo19 8 months ago
@nilbud LOL. "The Henny Youngman of Profanity" goes after "The Clown without a Mirror". At least you were smart enough NOT to engage me directly with your insult since your last smack-down.
Research has shown that a low IQ is positively correlated with people who compulsively post one line insults. In one hour, nilbud has posted FIVE such insults to different people. The reader is left to draw his own conclusion.
danL1011 8 months ago
@allgoo19 [you start babbling things don't make any sense.]
allgoo19 insults quotes of himself?
Bwaaahaha. Truly a clown without a mirror.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "allgoo19 insults quotes of himself?"
Babbling = talking to yourself. And that's what he's doing. He's not even telling which part of my comment.
Conversation = dialogue consists of questions and answers.
Whose pay roll are you on?
Answer?
allgoo19 8 months ago
@allgoo19 [Babbling = talking to yourself.]
I suppose it's you?
Whose pay roll are you on?
He's not even telling...you have no brain.
Bwaaahaha. Truly a clown without a mirror.
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "Bwaaahaha. Truly a clown without a mirror."
What you are advocating doesn't benefit you or your friend & family in anyway. Only reason you get benefit is to make money on it.
What I'm advocating will help myself and the whole society. I don't need to to get paid for that
So, whose pay roll are you on?
You already admit that you are getting paid but who you are getting from?
allgoo19 8 months ago
danL1011 8 months ago
@danL1011 "[Conversation = Babbling to yoursel.."
What your goal by posting comments in youtube, if not trying to persuade someone on your side?
allgoo19 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@allgoo19 [What your goal by posting comments in youtube...?]
"We both know you have no brain."
Bwaaahaha, allgoo19, the clown who talks to himself.
danL1011 8 months ago
@surfboardhacker
that is the point of why they did the work stopage
lordblazer 8 months ago
@lordblazer As I recall, the company did the work stoppage to force the union to do what it wanted.
BoredomCorner 8 months ago
@BoredomCorner
ur right I'm still jet lagged -_-' yea well the lesson here is well companies, CEOs and the super rich get their way at our expense all the time, and who are we to argue against this clearly we are less human than they are. Clearly they shit out gold... The last ten years has made me this cynical of a person in seeing the future outlook of things. I never had a chance.
lordblazer 8 months ago